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S10.E02: Episode 2

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Sister Frances finds herself in a tricky situation when a pregnant woman confides in her. Sister Julienne’s new venture hits a stumbling block.

 

(Mod note: sorry this is thread went up late.  I had my 2nd vaccine shot and was out of it!)

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I liked Sister Frances recognizing and addressing her naivete and asking for help so that she could become a better midwife. And I think Sister Hilda's idea was very good. But I wonder why Violet felt it necessary to inform Sister Julienne of Sister Frances buying ladies magazines (the horror!). Combine that with her (somewhat understandable) annoyance of Fred's liberal use of that list for later payments, and it was not a good outing for Mrs Buckle.

Poor Sister Hilda, her make-over plans were shut down quite cruelly. I do hope that's not the last we see of her sartorial endeavors. 

Well, there goes Sister Julienne's big plan of expanding into posh territory. Good for Trixie that she noticed the number of D&Cs. I hand it to Mr Scarisbrick that he made no attempts to hide what he was doing. But did he really expect that nuns would have no objections? Apart from ethical concerns it was still illegal. And how naive is Sheilagh that she did not grasp what was meant by 'side business' in that particular context?

Of course the true story in Trixie's plot was incredibly hot, soon-to-be-widower. Despite the tragic circumstances they had tons of chemistry. I take it we haven't seen the last of Mr Aylward and little Jonathan. That said I appreciate how much time they dedicated to Trixie and Fiona bonding. They made Fiona a real person not just a plot device. Only part I did not like was that Fiona's parents were given no lines. Why bring them in in the first place? (Oh, I just realized there might be a custody battle on the horizon.)

I did not envy Sister Frances when the husband returned home unexpectedly. But I admired how firm she was handling a highly volatile situation. And I loved how gentle Phyllis was with the husband, especially as we know she's not a fan of men being present at birth and she normally has little patience for frail male nerves. But she realized the enormity of the situation for him. Still I don't really buy his change of heart. Maybe if we had seen a longer conversation between him and his wife. 

Sister Monica Joan's depression was put on the back-burner which is okay. And as much as I like Lucille and Cyril I start to fear getting cavities from their scenes. 

 

 

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Meh, apart from the Sister Frances plot - which I really liked - I wasn't a particular fan of this episode. I hadn't formed enough of an emotional attachment to Fiona and her husband to be moved to tears by her death. Of course it was very sad, but I feel as though the writer/director thought it was more tragic than it was to me. And the plot about the evicted family was too neatly resolved, along with the heavy-handed message about 'rich and poor'. I did enjoy Miss Higgins' one scene on the phone with Sister Hilda - she was so delightfully snippy!

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So the plot with Fiona and Trixie reminded me of a tv movie No Higher Love staring Katey Sagal and Annabeth Gish.  Katey becomes close friends with nurse Annabeth when Katey gives birth at her hospital.  Eventually Katey discovers she has cancer.  When she realizes she’s dying she asks her husband to give romance with Annabeth a chance when he’s ready to start dating again.  The husband and Annabeth go on an extremely awkward date after his wife’s death where they mostly just talk about Katey and acknowledge they are only there because Katey asked them to before she died.  They decide they’ve honored their obligation to his wife on their horrible date and decide just to be friends.  Over time they eventually fall in love.  There’s a lovely moment when Katey’s daughter calls Annabeth “Mom” for the first time and she’s overwhelmed with emotion and says she loved her friend Katey and is going to make sure that their little girl grows up knowing about Katey.  The movie was very bitter sweet because you’re sad about Katey but happy for Annabeth, the husband, and their children finding some happiness eventually.

So I’m firmly convinced hot grieving Dad and Trixie will meet again.  They had tons of chemistry and there’s story potential there.

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I love this show but didn't like the dying wife to make room for Trixie feeling you got. It almost interfered with the emotion from Fiona dying. Her husband is a handsome and loving man but it seemed so "done that" I hope if they do it, they do it well and with this show, I think they will. If she met him after it happened, I feel it would have been better.

I think they did another episode with the husband accepting a child (biracial) with his wife who cheated? I think that was enough. I thought if the husband admitted he cheated, it might have made more sense then, but it seemed resolved pretty quickly. The show is so good overall, I forgive some things.

I am very interested to see how the story line with the nuclear fallout might continue and what happens to save Nonnatus House.

I liked how the D&C/abortion story line showed 2 sides. It was wrong but Trixie was right. Law or no law, richer/middle class women could always find ways and D&C's were done for many by sympathetic doctors. Pro Life groups must know on some level that just the poor suffer without a law. It's not talked about of course, but early abortions in safe offices have always been done by many doctors and Trixie is right that many died from unclean and botched ones. It will be interesting to see how they address this later but again, it was done before with many characters on the show.

Edited by debraran
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I think we may see the grieving widower again - with Trixie.  He was quite a looker.

The 180 by the cuckolded husband gave me whiplash.  Just seeing the baby caused an immediate change of heart?  Not buying it.

Nonnatus House is back on the edge of ruin.  Now what?

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You can see the hot widower/Trixie pairing a mile away. 🙄 

I liked Fiona and was sad she died, but didn’t tear up. Now when I later watched the marbles game episode of Squid Game I cried buckets! 
I was pissed that Violet tattled to Sister Julienne about Sister Frances buying magazines. Narc!

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Yep, I think we all know who Trixie's husband is going to be. I wonder how long it will be before they're a couple? Was the whole "Lady Emily" plot just to get Trixie a husband?

Edited by GaT
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4 hours ago, GaT said:

Yep, I think we all know who Trixie's husband is going to be. I wonder how long it will be before they're a couple? Was the whole "Lady Emily" plot just to get Trixie a husband?

This is the first time I don't like the plot. I really think it's corny and I don't see Trixie being this guys wife although the rich life style and instant mom status could be done. He's handsome but for some reason he keeps reminding me of someone on a movie and it hit me today, the bad fiance on Titanic. lol

They didn't have to kill off a woman to get Trixie a husband. He's already interested in a way, but doesn't know it 100%. His dependence on a nanny and finding her attractive isn't love. I can't see unless she wants off the show, her wanting to give up her job to be a full time mom either. We need Trixie ; )

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Yeah, as soon as it became apparent that Fiona was dying I realized it was to free up the husband to start dating Trixie.  Hopefully later though.  (Do you think Fiona suggests this in her letter?)

Yeah, the sailor dad accepting the baby boy was a little too neat.  

On 9/24/2021 at 5:40 AM, debraran said:

I think they did another episode with the husband accepting a child (biracial) with his wife who cheated? I think that was enough. I thought if the husband admitted he cheated, it might have made more sense then, but it seemed resolved pretty quickly. The show is so good overall, I forgive some things.

I agree.  The first time they used this plot had me in tears.  The older husband was so overjoyed to have a son he didn't care about anything else.

On 9/24/2021 at 5:40 AM, debraran said:

Law or no law, richer/middle class women could always find ways and D&C's were done for many by sympathetic doctors. Pro Life groups must know on some level that just the poor suffer without a law. It's not talked about of course, but early abortions in safe offices have always been done by many doctors and Trixie is right that many died from unclean and botched ones. It will be interesting to see how they address this later but again, it was done before with many characters on the show.

This is certainly timely.  Nothing ever changes.

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Not a big fan of this episode. Some not realistic things:  Your wife has Leukemia and it felt like the next day she was dead. And the cuckholded husband accepting another mans child so easily. Not! 
I also think the widower will end up with Trixie. 

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First time I have been close to disappointed in an episode of CtM.  The only thing missing was having the widower read the letter out loud when Trixie gave it to him, and it including the line, "Please do marry again.  Trixie would make a great wife."

Maybe it does say that . . . don't forget, SHE wrote it for Fiona.  

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I never find that, "Please marry  woman X after I'm dead," romantic.  Nothing would squig me out more than to think the woman who died had been picturing us together and giving her approval.   I prefer a grieving period and then meeting, or running into, someone you hopefully hadn't been thinking sexy thoughts about while  first wife was still alive.

I had actually been picturing Trixie with the hospital owner.  Yes, he's older, but he respects Trixie and they fought well together. 

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12 hours ago, Cetacean said:

The 180 by the cuckolded husband gave me whiplash.  Just seeing the baby caused an immediate change of heart?  Not buying it.

Maybe he decided to accept the baby because it was a son.  I hope the father doesn't live in the area.

Edited by DonnaMae
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The husband's acceptance of the baby wasn't as instantaneous as it appeared. Remember, there was a scene where he returned from (probably) the pub and was still hostile to the wife. By the time he was going out to sea again would probably be a month or so. He had taken to the baby by then and yes, it being a boy was part of it. I wondered how he would explain the baby to his shipmates. Maybe men don't count?

I think the dying wife had been home with the baby for a while and came back to the Lady Emily because they thought it might be puerperal fever from part of the placenta being left in the uterus.

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PBS must have cut out a scene of Trixie finding out the chief was doing a lot of D&Cs and wondering why. Her asking to observe his surgery was out of the blue.

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AML is still a really aggressive form of leukemia with a low 5 year survival rate…in the days before chemo it’s not unrealistic to think it could kill you in a month.  I felt so bad for the dad…the actor did a great job.

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1 hour ago, Dehumidifier said:

I wondered how he would explain the baby to his shipmates. Maybe men don't count?

That is kind of the vibe I get on this show, that men are loveable dimwits about womanly things.

I'm side eyeing Trixie's utter shock at the idea that Rich People Doctor was pretty openly performing abortions. She's been a midwife for nine years and is pretty worldly. Lots of not seeming to be necessary D&Cs should have been enough of a red flag without viewing the surgery. 

I do think she was right to let Sister Julienne in on the situation because it is something the church is against and they were pretty brazen about it. It just came off remarkably prissy for Trixie - I can't believe she didn't know that it had to be happening. 

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Overall, I enjoyed the episode. I liked the Sister Francis subplot with her wanting to know more about the outside world and her desire to better connect with the women she is working with. 

The sailor story didn't make sense. The backstory (what happened before the events of the episde) to the best of my understanding is she has an affair and is already pregnant when her husband comes and she sleeps with him. She couldn't have been showing or too far along, because her husband would have noticed something. The episode starts and she is visibily pregnant. Why couldn't she lie about the date of conception? Why didn't she even try to pass off the baby as his? It seems like the timing might have worked out.   

 

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I think Trixie was more pissed about the inequality: rich women can control their reproduction safely while poor women risk their lives. The doctor makes money and runs the fancy clinic; Trixie's friend Jeannie can only go back alley and dies of an infection. 

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At one time I felt like CTM was skirting around the abortion issue.  I remember an unmarried teacher who got pregnant and had an abortion and one of the nuns got a lecture from Sister Julienne for having a slightly judgmental attitude.  Now all this shock at the very idea. 

I'm just not totally on board with Trixie's (the show's) assumption that rich women only had to say the word and their doctor would perform an abortion while poor women's doctors would not.  Once when I was about 30, I had what could be called a "rich white woman's doctor" who refused to even prescribe birth  control pills much less perform an abortion.   

On the other hand, I would have thought doctors who served in poor areas like Dr. Turner, would be more likely to understand the hardships surrounding unwanted pregnancy and be more likely to do the surgery for their patients.  Doctors were so paternalistic back then I can picture them telling a rich woman that she can afford the child so she should be ashamed to even mention termination.  I got shamed like that just for asking for the pill when I was 20 years old.

I've been looking for stats on this and only found that black women are five times more likely than white women to have an abortion and that fifty percent of people who get abortions are poor.  That doesn't sound to me like poor people are going without wanted abortions because of their income.

That's for the present. I can't find past statistics, but I'm just not going to take Trixie's word for it that it was a piece of cake for rich women to get abortions in the 1960's.  If nothing else, word of mouth about who would or wouldn't perform the procedure probably would have been easier to get wind of in Poplar than some fancy London suburb.

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12 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I'm just not going to take Trixie's word for it that it was a piece of cake for rich women to get abortions in the 1960's. 

I don't think it was a piece of cake, and I agree that being a doctor for rich people doesn't mean you automatically perform abortions at the snap of a finger. I think the point though is that a rich woman could... shop around and get what she was looking for in a much safer way than a poor woman. I have no idea who said it but there's a saying that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortion, it stops safe, medically sound abortion. In this example, 1960's London - a rich woman could likely have a safe procedure. It might cost her some money, but a) she can get it and b) shes not risking her life to get it. A poor woman might not have the cash to doctor shop, and might have to relay on the "dirty kitchen table and old woman with a coat hanger" method of abortion. Or be forced to carry the child. A rich woman has more, and safer choices. To use a modern example - a wealthy woman in Texas can fly to New York for a three day weekend vacation and take care of things. A poor woman can't. 

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1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

The sailor story didn't make sense. The backstory (what happened before the events of the episde) to the best of my understanding is she has an affair and is already pregnant when her husband comes and she sleeps with him. She couldn't have been showing or too far along, because her husband would have noticed something. The episode starts and she is visibily pregnant. Why couldn't she lie about the date of conception? Why didn't she even try to pass off the baby as his? It seems like the timing might have worked out.  

Maybe it's just me and my genetics but when I was pregnant with my first I couldn't wait to start showing and it seemed to take forever -- maybe four months or longer.  By my third (which was actually my fourth pregnancy but I lost that baby early) it seemed like I found out I was pregnant and I was showing already.  It's as if my body had a memory of being pregnant and knew what to do. She could have told him that it was his, the baby was early and because the baby was a boy he was big for a premie.  Men back then wouldn't have known the difference (at least I don't think they would have known).

46 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

I think Trixie was more pissed about the inequality: rich women can control their reproduction safely while poor women risk their lives. The doctor makes money and runs the fancy clinic; Trixie's friend Jeannie can only go back alley and dies of an infection. 

I think that Trixie was appalled by two things.  The first is the realization of the inequality and the second the arrogance of  Dr. Kildare lookalike (but older) to not  care if she was was going to report it to Sister Julianne.  I looked and the law to legalize abortion passed in 1967 and went into effect in 1968.  So the discussion was very timely.

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1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

. I can't find past statistics, but I'm just not going to take Trixie's word for it that it was a piece of cake for rich women to get abortions in the 1960's.

I recall my aunt (married to an obgyn) saying that all a pregnant woman had to do was threaten to kill herself and an abortion would be performed. This was probably early 70s in a posh CT town. Yeah, the law was (and continues to be) no barrier for women of means. 

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1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I'm side eyeing Trixie's utter shock at the idea that Rich People Doctor was pretty openly performing abortions. She's been a midwife for nine years and is pretty worldly.

Not to mention that whole episode last season with Valerie's grandmother. Trixie knew what was going on. 

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1 minute ago, ShelleySue said:

The first is the realization of the inequality and the second the arrogance of  Dr. Kildare lookalike (but older) to not  care if she was was going to report it to Sister Julianne. 

He was being arrogant but really, what was telling Sister Julienne going to do to his practice? I really didn't see where this arrangement was anything other his granting some charity to Nonnatus House.

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16 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Not to mention that whole episode last season with Valerie's grandmother. Trixie knew what was going on. 

Yeah, she was acting like she had no idea women had abortions... I was like "Trixie, were you blackout drunk during the *abortion storylines* on this show?"

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21 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I recall my aunt (married to an obgyn) saying that all a pregnant woman had to do was threaten to kill herself and an abortion would be performed. This was probably early 70s in a posh CT town. Yeah, the law was (and continues to be) no barrier for women of means. 

But did he say she had to be rich, or could a poor woman say the same thing?  I'm still not convinced that it's so much harder for a poor woman to get an abortion.  If that's true why do poor women obtain 50% of the abortions and why do black women get abortions at five times the rate of white women if it's so much harder for them?  Something here just  doesn't compute for me.

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1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Not to mention that whole episode last season with Valerie's grandmother. Trixie knew what was going on. 

Yes, of course Trixie knew women were getting abortions, that’s not in doubt. She referenced Valerie's grandmother when she was talking to Sister Julienne about unequal access, and compared the women of means going to the Sister Emily with poor women “on a kitchen table above a pub.” I think Trixie was shocked that he was doing it rather openly while entertaining hiring nuns to work there as midwives, rather than that women were getting abortions.

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

But did he say she had to be rich, or could a poor woman say the same thing?  I'm still not convinced that it's so much harder for a poor woman to get an abortion.  If that's true why do poor women obtain 50% of the abortions and why do black women get abortions at five times the rate of white women if it's so much harder for them?  Something here just  doesn't compute for me.

If I’m not mistaken, you said in the first post where you referenced these (American) statistics that they are contemporary, but in the context of the show (and the post you were responding to) we’re speaking about the years before abortion was legalized, so I don’t understand how this relates to that? It’s true that in many states pre-local legalization and pre-Roe v. Wade, serious mental health distress was the only circumstance in which abortions were performed in hospitals, but I’m also sure there were whisper networks that led women of means to competent private physicians willing to do it, whereas poor women had whisper networks leading them to less-safe alternatives, or they tried to take matters into their own hands. Closer to legalization in the US, hospital abortions were subject to review panels and pretty much ground to a halt, I’ve read. (Now in  the US, with the possible exception of late terminations for medical reasons, hospitals generally won’t perform abortions.)

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4 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

The sailor story didn't make sense. The backstory (what happened before the events of the episde) to the best of my understanding is she has an affair and is already pregnant when her husband comes and she sleeps with him. She couldn't have been showing or too far along, because her husband would have noticed something. The episode starts and she is visibily pregnant. Why couldn't she lie about the date of conception? Why didn't she even try to pass off the baby as his? It seems like the timing might have worked out.   

At first I thought the affair took place when he was away so I went back to watch again and, yes, she had an affair but in the meantime the sailor came home.  One would expect they had sex during his time ashore so why didn't she just pass the baby off as his?

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2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

But did he say she had to be rich, or could a poor woman say the same thing?  I'm still not convinced that it's so much harder for a poor woman to get an abortion.  If that's true why do poor women obtain 50% of the abortions and why do black women get abortions at five times the rate of white women if it's so much harder for them?  Something here just  doesn't compute for me.

The point, IMO, is that it was not so much harder for a poor woman to get an abortion back then as it was for her to get a safe abortion.

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11 hours ago, Haleth said:

I agree.  The first time they used this plot had me in tears.  The older husband was so overjoyed to have a son he didn't care about anything else.

It’s even more tear-jerking in the book. He’s so proud of “his boy Ted.”  Cried buckets. 
 

I wonder if Hot Widower will give Nonnatus House some money. 

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4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

At one time I felt like CTM was skirting around the abortion issue.  I remember an unmarried teacher who got pregnant and had an abortion and one of the nuns got a lecture from Sister Julienne for having a slightly judgmental attitude.  Now all this shock at the very idea. 

I'm just not totally on board with Trixie's (the show's) assumption that rich women only had to say the word and their doctor would perform an abortion while poor women's doctors would not.  Once when I was about 30, I had what could be called a "rich white woman's doctor" who refused to even prescribe birth  control pills much less perform an abortion.   

On the other hand, I would have thought doctors who served in poor areas like Dr. Turner, would be more likely to understand the hardships surrounding unwanted pregnancy and be more likely to do the surgery for their patients.  Doctors were so paternalistic back then I can picture them telling a rich woman that she can afford the child so she should be ashamed to even mention termination.  I got shamed like that just for asking for the pill when I was 20 years old.

I've been looking for stats on this and only found that black women are five times more likely than white women to have an abortion and that fifty percent of people who get abortions are poor.  That doesn't sound to me like poor people are going without wanted abortions because of their income.

That's for the present. I can't find past statistics, but I'm just not going to take Trixie's word for it that it was a piece of cake for rich women to get abortions in the 1960's.  If nothing else, word of mouth about who would or wouldn't perform the procedure probably would have been easier to get wind of in Poplar than some fancy London suburb.

In 1966 Poplar was still a slum. Us middle & upper class folks had access to much more. My family doctor didn't prescribe birth control or perform vasectomies (strict Catholic, which was far more common then) and I'm sure would never have performed abortion. A few years later when I went in search of BC I went to Planned Parenthood where I was treated gently & professionally (at 17). Trixie needed proof to back up her suspicions. And her reactions while discussing this with Sister Julienne were because of her friend's death. She knows abortion is everywhere. She also knows its illegal. The illegality being so cavalierly treated by the Lady Emily is what grinds her gears. And yes, I see something brewing between Trixie & Matthew. AML wasn't as easily diagnosed in those days. It can be very aggressive, so her rapid decline is very common. 

Dessy loves Jacinta...the end. There may be a drunken confession in the future about his own bad behavior. 

Sister Frances wants to learn. I love her for that. And for knowing her limitations while realizing that if she is to serve the greater world she needs information. Sister Julienne's restrictions on reading the magazines are appropriate for a non secular community...Misss. Higgins reaction to Sister Hilda was priceless...there is something to love about the stuffy spinster. 

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15 minutes ago, CrazyMoon said:

I love her for that. And for knowing her limitations while realizing that if she is to serve the greater world she needs information. Sister Julienne's restrictions on reading the magazines are appropriate for a non secular community..

Sr F is becoming my favorite.  She is so earnest and has grown quite a bit since she started.  And at the tender age of 21 she is acutely aware of her lack of worldiness but is willing to admit it and attempt to learn. So much better than the santimonious nuns I had to endure as a kid!

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14 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

Not a big fan of this episode. Some not realistic things:  Your wife has Leukemia and it felt like the next day she was dead. And the cuckholded husband accepting another mans child so easily. Not! 
I also think the widower will end up with Trixie. 

Back in the mid-60's, acute myelogenous leukemia (AML) was invariably fatal and very little could be done.  The timeline might've been compressed a little, but many people diagnosed with it died very quickly in those days.  Weeks or months was the max back then.

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8 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

But did he say she had to be rich, or could a poor woman say the same thing?  I'm still not convinced that it's so much harder for a poor woman to get an abortion.  If that's true why do poor women obtain 50% of the abortions and why do black women get abortions at five times the rate of white women if it's so much harder for them?  Something here just  doesn't compute for me.A

As stated on the show, it's access to safe abortion that is the difference.  Current statistics on abortion don't really apply to Britain in the mid 60's when the procedure was illegal but physicians in private practice were willing to perform them for paying patients and falsify their medical records.

One thing that wasn't very clear on the show is that there are two options for health care in Great Britain.  Everyone is eligible for the NHS or National Health Service which is government sponsored health care and what we see the midwives at Nonnatus House providing to the people of Poplar.  They are essentially government employees.  However, the other, fancy hospital with the private physicians was part of the private health care system which is essentially limited to those who can pay out of pocket for their health care.  That is why Sister Julienne was considering allowing their midwives to work at that hospital.  With private patients, paying cash for services, there would be a lucrative income stream available to help Nonnatus provide services to the poor that NHS payments couldn't cover.  So, the doctor at the private hospital was providing abortions to women who could afford to pay him and the hospital out of pocket for it under the guise of calling it a D&C.  The women of Poplar, not having that kind of money, paid Val's grandmother for the same services on the kitchen table above the pub.  That is the difference.  Women who could pay in cash had access to the safety provided by a real doctor and a real hospital as well as the cover story that that situation provided.

I presume your statistics are based on the US today which isn't really comparable to Britain prior to legalized abortion in the mid 60's.  While I agree that black women generally have abortions at a higher rate than white women, I don't think it is 5 times higher from what I've read.  Access to safe and effective contraception in middle class vs poor women is part of the answer though.  Abortion overall costs a lot less than raising a child and. sadly, sometimes that is a big factor in the choice to end a pregnancy.

Edited by Rootbeer
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I agree with those who weren't totally thrilled by this episode. I really really REALLY hope that the predictions of Mr Aylward and Trixie getting together practically at the funeral of his wife won't happen. He is just the kind of guy she wants, wealthy, handsome, etc but the thought of them getting together is too skeevy. I was so glad ST MJ's moaning and groaning was at a minimum this ep and I wish to God they would ship her off to the Mother House. Or Mars. I didn't think that sailor guy's turnaround was completely unbelievable. He of course was furious, but it is one thing to be furious with the concept and quite another to stand there and allow a baby to die in front of you, and it would be hard not to care about the baby after that traumatic birth. I think he was essentially a decent man, even though I don't know how people consider themselves good husbands or fathers only seeing their families once or twice a year. His wife said she wasn't showing when he was home last so I don't know either why she couldn't tell him it was his.

I don't know why either Trixie or Shelagh didn't get that the dr was doing abortions. With the show banging on about rich and poor, I disliked how they said that the poor family was evicted "just because they were behind on their rent." The landlord is evil because he wanted the money they had contracted to pay? Landlords don't have bills or obligations of their own, they should just let people live rent free?

It seems that the young nun, what IS her name, thinking she doesn't know enough about life to be a good midwife, in which she has a good point, is familiar, someone else had similar concerns in an earlier season about themselves, but I can't think who it was. Cynthia? Sr Winifred?

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3 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

I presume your statistics are based on the US today which isn't really comparable to Britain prior to legalized abortion in the mid 60's.  

Yes, as I said when I posted them, those statistics were the only ones I could find and I was hoping someone else had stats from Britain in the 60's.  They were just an example of poor women being able to find abortion providers today -- some people were saying that it was still much harder for them today and it didn't seem that way from the stats. 

I don't agree that it's really very hard to access birth control.  If you can find a drug store you can get some sort of birth control. Barrier methods plus chemical provide excellent protection.  Just as an abortion is cheaper than raising a child, birth control is cheaper than an abortion.

I was just a little miffed at the show for trying to play to both sides at once.  There's something a little inconsistent about nuns outraged to discover abortions are going on (because it's a grave sin for which you'll burn in Hell for all eternity),  and literally in the next breath, outraged that poor women can't get them.

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1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I don't agree that it's really very hard to access birth control.  If you can find a drug store you can get some sort of birth control. Barrier methods plus chemical provide excellent protection.  Just as an abortion is cheaper than raising a child, birth control is cheaper than an abortion

Thank you. I agree!

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1 hour ago, susannah said:

Thank you. I agree!

Back then though condoms were awful and the pill was just starting and not very good. They have enhanced things in that area a lot. Also men were even more against using them. Why didn't that women's husband with no job use them or leave her alone? That anger I've seen in men even after that time period, for some reason they always feel put upon and tricked and sorry but never take responsibility. This graph from 2014 puts a different spin on who gets them, but talking to many doctors, although white women get more, they usually aren't at places that count them so to speak. If you have a D&C with your doctor for bleeding, some in office, it's not always put as abortion. Poor women who go to clinics are usually counted. CDC records were close in 2018 and below is 2014. Among the 31 areas that reported race/ethnicity data for 2018, non-Hispanic White women and non-Hispanic Black women accounted for the largest percentages of all abortions (38.7% and 33.6%, respectively)

Demographics of abortion

A 2014 survey of 8,380 U.S. women who had abortions shows how their characteristics compare to the general population of U.S. women ages 15 to 44.

Age group

Under 20 11.9% 20 to 24 33.6%, 25 to 29 26..5%  30 to 34 15.9%  35 to 39 9.1% and 40 and older 3.1%

Race/ethnicity   White 38.7%  Black  27.6%  Hispanic 24.8%  Asian/Pacific Islander  5.5% and other 3.4%

 

I find it interesting to see how laws were then and who was allowed to have birth control and not and how teaching them to avoid pregnancy in other ways was something new. Really, they are always teaching women but men were the ones that needed more education and they were left out of that entirely, even birth was a mystery.

 

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I think I figured out why the abortion part of the show irked me: the timing of it. The show has dealt with abortion and unequal access to health care before—the latter is baked into the premise of the show!—and for Trixie to only now get on her high horse seems very odd. Some connective tissue was missing for me. It's a bit early in the show's time line for the legalization effort to be raised, but that would have made Trixie's outburst more logical.

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11 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

It's a bit early in the show's time line for the legalization effort to be raised, but that would have made Trixie's outburst more logical.

It's really not. The vote to legalize abortion in the UK took place in 1967. And on the show it's fall 1966. This is exactly when the debate would be happening. 

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Trixie didn’t have an issue with abortion- she had an issue with the fact that it was so easily available for women of means, but illegal and dangerous for the women of Poplar. Also, she knew that the nuns couldn’t be connected to a hospital that was breaking the law. I didn’t see it as moral outrage about abortions, but outrage at the dichotomy of access for the wealthy.

I didn’t find the Fiona leukemia timeline unrealistic. Sadly, I’ve known a woman who died soon after having a child from a very aggressive cancer because the pregnancy itself masked all the symptoms so it went undetected.

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6 hours ago, susannah said:

I think he was essentially a decent man, even though I don't know how people consider themselves good husbands or fathers only seeing their families once or twice a year.

I hate to say "it was a different time" but... It was a different time. He considered himself a good husband because he was likely working a shitty job on a boat that kept him away from his family solely so that his wife and kids could live in a nice flat and eat daily and have nice things. There were no suggestions that he was abusive or whoring around on his own, he seemed like a decent guy who genuinely loved his wife and little girls. He even brought the kids presents and seemed really happy to be home. Sometimes the husbands on this show are dicks but this guy by all reports had every right to be angry that his wife committed adultery. Sometimes the midwives get a little ridiculous in expecting people to simply forgive and forget the crime, so to speak. At the end of the day, the bad person in this situation was not the dad, but the mom who cheated on the dad while he was away, working to support the family. 

Don't get me wrong, I can understand the mom's situation and sympathize but really, the dad had every reason to be upset here.  Unlike other husbands on this show, he exhibited no bad traits. He didn't drink, didn't hit the wife or kids, worked to provide a home, was apparently loyal. His offense - leaving her alone too long, was due to his job that provided the family a home. 

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7 hours ago, susannah said:

With the show banging on about rich and poor, I disliked how they said that the poor family was evicted "just because they were behind on their rent." The landlord is evil because he wanted the money they had contracted to pay? Landlords don't have bills or obligations of their own, they should just let people live rent free?

This kind of thing almost felt like an add on for the modern audience. I agree btw. Right now I have a close friend who I seriously envied until recently because he had two properties other than his own providing income and now he's about to lose all three properties because no one is paying rent. 

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11 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Sometimes the midwives get a little ridiculous in expecting people to simply forgive and forget the crime, so to speak. At the end of the day, the bad person in this situation was not the dad, but the mom who cheated on the dad while he was away, working to support the family. 

I agree, he did seem like a good guy and had a right to be angry about the circumstances.  "A girl gets lonely" is really a weak excuse and I thought the midwives brushing that off was unrealistic.  To me, keeping the baby was unrealistic as well.  That was a very forgiving husband, I must say.

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43 minutes ago, rlc said:

Trixie didn’t have an issue with abortion- she had an issue with the fact that it was so easily available for women of means, but illegal and dangerous for the women of Poplar. Also, she knew that the nuns couldn’t be connected to a hospital that was breaking the law. I didn’t see it as moral outrage about abortions, but outrage at the dichotomy of access for the wealthy.

I didn’t find the Fiona leukemia timeline unrealistic. Sadly, I’ve known a woman who died soon after having a child from a very aggressive cancer because the pregnancy itself masked all the symptoms so it went undetected.

Yes, Trixie's main objection was to the fact that there was dishonesty in the practices at the hospital.  Doctors were falsifying records and performing illegal procedures and it was built right into the system.  If, at some point, they were caught, it would be a huge scandal if the nuns at Nonnatus House were associated in any way.  I would also presume that anyone associated with the practice of illegal abortions would be subject to prosecution and loss of their medical license.  The midwives at Nonnatus could not afford that risk, either.  That is all aside from any moral objections the nuns might have and, if Trixie knew they would have problems with it, surely the doctor who invited them to associate with the hospital did, too, and the nuns deserved to know the truth.

And, yes, as the show often does, the socioeconomic inequity was part of the story; but Trixie's main objection was to the inherent dishonesty and legal ramifications.

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