S05.E13: Brotherly Love

[Blakeston]

12 hours ago, stonehaven said:

While watching this, I was wondering what exactly propelled Kevin to stop being an ass? I know he was drinking a lot and I know he was a bit of a punk in his teens and early 20's but I am hoping we get to see when exactly he really grew up into the emotional and caring guy that he is. I think the Pilot showed a bit of selfishness but not the dickishness that was his teen years. 

This is the timeline as far as I can suss it out:

Kevin was still a jerk in his late 20s, judging by the episode set in 2008 where he tried to steal a role from a friend who was helping him with his career.

By the pilot, he was depressed and adrift. The episode where he fought with Randall in front of Seth Meyers appeared to be when it first dawned on him how badly he'd treated Randall. That led to him being willing to sacrifice the play to help Randall.

Then Kevin got hooked on opiates and went into rehab, where he finally confronted how damaged he was by being the least favorite child in his family. That was the step he needed to move forward with his life, and start thinking about people other than himself. And from there he had a healthy relationship with Zoe, and took care of Nicky, and became the lovable Kevin he is now.

[debraran]

Racial micro aggression are different but we all get them. Black people can never assimilate or be accepted though in the way white people are. No matter their weight, gender, political party, they wont evoke the aggression they see daily at times.

I watched in the 80's when I worked in a large city near Yale, women at times clutch their purses when black men, even in suits walked by. I was 19 and it was odd to me even though I grew up in a white suburb. The things I saw and heard at work and on the street didn't come close to the cat calls from the construction workers. I was sexually harassed by some bosses and hated that but I saw black men denied jobs on interviews when better suited and the whispers of "maybe having to hire one" to appease HR. It's all bad but I understand as a whole, being white gives me more options, more acceptance and more opportunities without someone thinking I didn't earn it (unless I'm a CEO's kid)

https://chronicle.brightspotcdn.com/63/6b/3f8230259cd57d3995c16b3251dc/microaggressions.pdf

[watch2much]

I think Kevin deserved more understanding.  I come from a family with an older adoptive brother.  he was treated for better than the biologic children and there are lots of resentments.

[Tabbygirl521]

On 4/13/2021 at 7:11 PM, ByaNose said:

Randall is still a wet blanket. Kevin was really trying. He could have walked through fire & it still wouldn’t have been enough for Randall. I liked how all the girls were glad to see Uncle Kevin. 

Kevin started out by making their conflict all about himself. He was telling Randall how he (Randall) must have felt. I can see Randall’s frustration that Kevin was being Kevin. Eventually Kevin did start to understand and overall he has been growing as a person so it was good to see them finally get some genuine communication going.

I'm always surprised to see how many people don’t like Randall. I find his story the most interesting. Kevin’s trajectory has been fairly heartwarming if predictable recently and Kate and Toby are kinda blah for me,  but Randall has issues that strike me as real, serious, and timely. Also I love Beth. 

[Tabbygirl521]

On 4/13/2021 at 7:28 PM, Crs97 said:

Has no one ever honestly asked Randall why he thinks a childhood with his birth parents would have been so idyllic, considering his mom went to jail and both were addicts?

I’m sure he knows. He was explaining to Kevin how he lived in that fantasy as a child, and that it’s common. I imagine it’s like kids of divorce wishing their parents would reunite and everything would be OK, even if they know better. 

[Tabbygirl521]

On 4/13/2021 at 9:56 PM, chocolatine said:

Of course, because Randall cannot be expected to take on the burden of being his brother's best man unless Kevin comes to him and atones for all the "sins" he committed as a child.

He said he would be honored to be Best Man before Kevin’s VOLUNTEERED to come see him. 

[Ohiopirate02]

19 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Kevin started out by making their conflict all about himself. He was telling Randall how he (Randall) must have felt. I can see Randall’s frustration that Kevin was being Kevin. Eventually Kevin did start to understand and overall he has been growing as a person so it was good to see them finally get some genuine communication going.

I'm always surprised to see how many people don’t like Randall. I find his story the most interesting. Kevin’s trajectory has been fairly heartwarming if predictable recently and Kate and Toby are kinda blah for me,  but Randall has issues that strike me as real, serious, and timely. Also I love Beth. 

Kate could have a storyline that is real, serious,  and timely.  If only the show chose to do it.  Instead, Kate has been shoved into the wife/mother box.  Which is boring.  

[Tabbygirl521]

For some eye-opening reading about micro (and macro) aggressions, I suggest “You’ll Never Believe What Happened to Lacey!” by Amber Ruffin. It’s written in a very humorous style, but it’s very serious and jaw-dropping at the same time. You’ll laugh, you’ll cry, your blood pressure will soar...

[Jeddah]

52 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Randall has issues that strike me as real, serious, and timely. Also I love Beth. 

I love Beth too, but I was disappointed when the flashforward showed her still with Randall. I hate the way he treats her.

I feel like the way this show handles adoption has never seemed “real.” Most adopted kids don’t have a random guy show up to tell them their birth mother left them a house. Most adopted kids don’t get a wonderful reunion where their birth father seamlessly fits into their life and everyone has a meaningful, poignant relationship with him.

[circumvent]

On 4/15/2021 at 8:18 PM, OdinO. said:

But, everyone experiences micro aggressions daily. Really, they do.

Speaking of Kevin, which micro aggressions does he experience? 

 

On 4/15/2021 at 9:11 PM, pennben said:

am as tired of being accused of things as you are tired of hearing things, all stemming from a story not well told. 

I didn't accuse anyone of anything, not directly. I am calling out unwillingness of white people to see reality, part of a very real experience, reflected in a character.

 

On 4/15/2021 at 10:15 PM, Runningwild said:

Sorry, but no. You can’t expect people to read your mind all the time.

If you say this without context, then you are right. In the context of racial bias you wrong because it is not about reading mind, it is about being at minimum aware of the obstacles and dangers black people face everyday. Willingness is the key word.

 

On 4/15/2021 at 10:15 PM, Runningwild said:

Randall isn’t oppressed by any system

Black people are oppressed in this country. That's just a fact.

 

On 4/16/2021 at 1:14 AM, chocolatine said:

But his family set him up to succeed, and he did.

Success and oppression and not mutually exclusive

On 4/16/2021 at 6:44 AM, JudyObscure said:

I'm not sure why it's always assumed that white people are uneducated about the history of racism, but let's say Kevin is, so he spends the next year doing a reading list set up by Randall, then undergoes extensive therapy in order to remember every moment of his childhood, not with a focus on his own left to drown issues, but to try and see their shared experiences from Randall's point of view.   Kevin still wouldn't be able to undo history or erase every bad moment of Randall's life and anything he does to try to atone for it all will just be viewed as virtue signaling.   Got it.

Maybe Kevin should just go home and get on with his life if Randall is going to withhold forgiveness toward him (and Kate) until racism no longer exists.

That's so far from the point of the conversation and the point I was making...

[PRgal]

44 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Speaking of Kevin, which micro aggressions does he experience? 

 

I didn't accuse anyone of anything, not directly. I am calling out unwillingness of white people to see reality, part of a very real experience, reflected in a character.

 

If you say this without context, then you are right. In the context of racial bias you wrong because it is not about reading mind, it is about being at minimum aware of the obstacles and dangers black people face everyday. Willingness is the key word.

 

Black people are oppressed in this country. That's just a fact.

 

Success and oppression and not mutually exclusive

That's so far from the point of the conversation and the point I was making...

Agism may be a thing for Kevin.  Earlier in the season, he told Madison that he has body image issues as well, especially now that he's 40.  He's always going to be seen as "The Manny," and has to keep in a certain shape for as long as he can.  He isn't, say, Jack Black and will never be.  Unless Kevin does a career change, and goes behind the scenes, many of the roles he currently gets and is up for will go to younger guys.  

[circumvent]

17 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Agism may be a thing for Kevin.  Earlier in the season, he told Madison that he has body image issues as well, especially now that he's 40.  He's always going to be seen as "The Manny," and has to keep in a certain shape for as long as he can.  He isn't, say, Jack Black and will never be.  Unless Kevin does a career change, and goes behind the scenes, many of the roles he currently gets and is up for will go to younger guys.  

This is not a micro aggression

[buttersister]

On 4/15/2021 at 9:34 AM, smartymarty said:

[If Kevin really is an asshole to all cab drivers, call him our for that, not for racism. Of course, the show left it up in the air whether Kevin really does that.]

Kevin was a drunk teenager being an asshole to a black cab driver in front of his black brother who didn't want to be there in the first place. And, scene.

Thanks to debraran for posting the encounter in the psychiatrist's office. It illustrated many things, not the least of which were the mistakes made by Jack and Rebecca. On one hand, Kevin's self-awareness helped propel him on a healthier path, able to control his addictions and form caring relationships.

On the other hand, while I hope that Randall and Kevin find the courage to continue understanding what baggage was packed by their parents, some of Randall's issues result from systemic racism. Kevin's understanding of that can help Randall feel more supported by his brother, but that doesn't remove the micro-aggressions or the potential of much larger ones. 

Interesting that Jack's addiction gene was passed onto the twins (narcotics and food). But Randall's parents were both addicts and theirs weren't.

 

 

 

[Jeddah]

52 minutes ago, buttersister said:

Interesting that Jack's addiction gene was passed onto the twins (narcotics and food). But Randall's parents were both addicts and theirs weren't.

There was an episode that seems like forever ago where William told Beth he had anxiety and felt guilty for passing it on to Randall, and then Randall felt guilty for passing it on to Tess. I thought it was a weird choice on the writers’ part to have Randall’s anxiety as a product of his genetics, not circumstances especially when none of themever seemed at all worried about addiction being passed on.

Then the show just dropped Tess’s anxiety completely.

[ByaNose]

7 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Kevin started out by making their conflict all about himself. He was telling Randall how he (Randall) must have felt. I can see Randall’s frustration that Kevin was being Kevin. Eventually Kevin did start to understand and overall he has been growing as a person so it was good to see them finally get some genuine communication going.

I'm always surprised to see how many people don’t like Randall. I find his story the most interesting. Kevin’s trajectory has been fairly heartwarming if predictable recently and Kate and Toby are kinda blah for me,  but Randall has issues that strike me as real, serious, and timely. Also I love Beth. 

I like Randall with Beth. Fake smoking and all. It’s just when he’s with Kevin & Kate is when I don’t like him. Of course, it might be the way it’s supposed to be with the two of them Jack & Rebecca biological kids & Randall being adopted. I guess Sterling K. Brown plays him too well. Somehow, I like him with the girls & even Malik but it’s when he’s with the siblings I tend not to like him that much. 

[Irate Panda]

I watch this show on and off, but didn’t Randall only find out the back stories about his parents when he was an adult, so wouldn’t it be normal for him to idealize his birth parents? I mean it would be weird for a 5 year old to have his parents be drug addicts in his imaginary world.  Even if he would have known, why would you want your imaginary world to be crappy?  This is why I think he kept his ghost kingdom the same even as an adult.

I like pretty much like all the characters except Kate and Toby, so I think Randall and Kevin both made points about their childhood sucking in different ways.  The difference I see, as kids/teenagers, Randall most times internalized his trauma which caused his anxiety.  Jack and Rebecca did favor Randall in some ways because they knew the world would never treat him fair.  This led to Kevin doubting himself and striking out at Randall, often times about his “blackness” or what Kevin define as what it means to be black like with the rap or Carlton jokes.  I don’t necessarily think Kevin sat around thinking about micro aggressions, but I do think at a certain point Kevin knew Randall questioned his place in the world and it was a way for him to “knock Randall down a peg”.  I’m not saying all their fights were about this, some were just sibling stuff, but it would be exhausting for Randall to deal with from strangers and then come home and deal with there too.

I really don’t see Randall as whiney (I admit I don’t watch all the episodes), but I see him as frustrated with having to deal with racism/micro aggressions his whole life.  That shit is tiring. That doesn’t mean Kevin had a perfect or even fair childhood.  

The whole thing with Rebecca and Randall trying to railroad her into the study, I think comes from a couple places.  One, comparatively speaking, Randall was always the responsible one. Now, this could be because his parents treated him like the responsible one, it could have been Randall as a adoptee grew up feeling he had to be “extra good” so he wouldn’t lose these parents too, or maybe it’s just his nature.  Anyway, it is hard being the somewhat “fixer” in the family after X amount of years and then have the the seemingly less responsible sibling come in and take over or even voice a differing opinion on a major subject. 

Now, I don’t fault Kevin for any of this because I do think Kevin was advocating for what Rebecca truly wanted.  I think Randall and Rebecca are/were woefully codependent, so I think Randall thought he was making the best decision because I think he felt Rebecca couldn’t.  I also think it triggered his fear of abandonment.  Ultimately, I think Kevin was right that it was Rebecca’s decision, since she was still capable of making it.  She had some mental decline, but I personally think she was still capable of making an informed decision.

I think the episode was handled well and as far as apologizing they both said horrible things, so I’m glad they both apologized.  They were both obviously cheap-spotting each other, because I doubt either of them would have said to Kate it was her fault for guilting their dad about going back for the dog.

 

[bros402]

10 hours ago, Jeddah said:

I love Beth too, but I was disappointed when the flashforward showed her still with Randall. I hate the way he treats her.

I feel like the way this show handles adoption has never seemed “real.” Most adopted kids don’t have a random guy show up to tell them their birth mother left them a house. Most adopted kids don’t get a wonderful reunion where their birth father seamlessly fits into their life and everyone has a meaningful, poignant relationship with him.

I'm hoping future Randall has calmed down a little.

I agree with that adoption sentiment - Two years ago, I helped an adoptee (i'm an amateur genealogist) figure out her birth parents. She was given up at birth - eventually, we discovered that her birth mother died when she was ~3 years old and her birth father either died when she was 2 years old OR died a year after I helped her (the latter was the most likely candidate, but refused to take a DNA test - he was a recluse). We've contacted different members of her family - some have responded to her - some had conversations with her for a bit, then never responded again. Some have reacted with anger when reaching out (even though this adoptee has a serious medical issue that her biological family needs to know about), because they don't want to see that these people had a kid decades ago and didn't tell them.

Some of them might come around before she passes - she hopes she can eventually get to know more about them than just a name, but she isn't expecting it.

[OdinO.]

On 4/15/2021 at 8:39 PM, BC4ME said:

Of course they do. But the point some posters are trying to make is there are degrees and there can be vast differences in these degrees. The analogy of comparing one person's cold to another's cancer is a good one. White privilege doesn't mean nothing bad ever happens to you because you're white. It means race is not a factor in those bad things. Imagine this. 

So who do I blame?

[circumvent]

22 minutes ago, OdinO. said:

So who do I blame?

Do you need to blame someone?

[OdinO.]

31 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Do you need to blame someone?

It seems I must.

[debraran]

15 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

For some eye-opening reading about micro (and macro) aggressions, I suggest “You’ll Never Believe What Happened to Lacey!” by Amber Ruffin. It’s written in a very humorous style, but it’s very serious and jaw-dropping at the same time. You’ll laugh, you’ll cry, your blood pressure will soar...

I read the free sample and laughed at the pics of the famous black people she had been mistaken for and her trying to look like them. ;)

Randall was able to do a lot with his talent but will always be looked at differently alone by some as different. You just have to live with it and hope it changes more in the future

One thing that angered me as a young adult working in a couple of large companies were racist people who looked for someone black to mess up but allowed the same transgressions in others. One receptionist was fine, not the best, not the worst, but she was always pointed out by people to be "slightly arrogant" and stood up for herself too much when she thought they were doing something outside of employee rights. When I pointed out a white receptionist like her in another office, I'd get blank stares, because it was about her but it really wasn't. I would get whispers from workers about someone not wanting to go back to work on comp "not that it surprises me" because the woman was black. I spoke up for the first time I could remember and said, "Do you know how many white patients we have who don't want to go back to work, that keep re injuring themselves or asking he doc for more time? Many. And we have both races that want to work, that want their full paycheck and want to know they'll get the same job back. She looked stunned and never said things to me like that again. Maybe rude of me, maybe not, but it wasn't the first time and even though I'm white and not effected the same way, it irritates me. It's 2021 and as long as we keep boxing people in our limited and wrong thought process and whispering thinking we are part of a club, things wont change.

I do see differences and am blessed to be in a very mixed and friendly neighborhood so my kids grew up with a different bubble than most but you can always educate and not rely on FB posts of the worst of everyone.

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by debraran

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, OdinO. said:

It seems I must.

So if you want to blame someone for no real reason, I guess you can pick anyone, since it will be equally unreasonable. Knock yourself out

 

[Tabbygirl521]

6 hours ago, debraran said:

I read the free sample and laughed at the pics of the famous black people she had been mistaken for and her trying to look like them. ;)

Randall was able to do a lot with his talent but will always be looked at differently alone by some as different. You just have to live with it and hope it changes more in the future

One thing that angered me as a young adult working in a couple of large companies were racist people who looked for someone black to mess up but allowed the same transgressions in others. One receptionist was fine, not the best, not the worst, but she was always pointed out by people to be "slightly arrogant" and stood up for herself too much when she thought they were doing something outside of employee rights. When I pointed out a white receptionist like her in another office, I'd get blank stares, because it was about her but it really wasn't. I would get whispers from workers about someone not wanting to go back to work on comp "not that it surprises me" because the woman was black. I spoke up for the first time I could remember and said, "Do you know how many white patients we have who don't want to go back to work, that keep re injuring themselves or asking he doc for more time? Many. And we have both races that want to work, that want their full paycheck and want to know they'll get the same job back. She looked stunned and never said things to me like that again. Maybe rude of me, maybe not, but it wasn't the first time and even though I'm white and not effected the same way, it irritates me. It's 2021 and as long as we keep boxing people in our limited and wrong thought process and whispering thinking we are part of a club, things wont change.

I do see differences and am blessed to be in a very mixed and friendly neighborhood so my kids grew up with a different bubble than most but you can always educate and not rely on FB posts of the worst of everyone.

 

I love reading about how you spoke up. If being honest struck anyone as rude, too bad!

I’m also white and I know I can never really understand but I’m trying my hardest to keep my eyes and mind open. I intend to speak up at every opportunity. This is why I appreciate Randall’s storyline so much. It’s definitely thought-provoking and enlightening, a look at the world through eyes other than my own. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Tabbygirl521

[BC4ME]

7 hours ago, OdinO. said:

So who do I blame?

If this episode is supposed to get people talking about systemic racism and its effect on people's lives in a way that could *possibly* open someone's mind to race issues they had not considered before, I don't think it's working very well judging by some comments on this forum IMO.

I'm not sure the writers' intent in the way the three siblings are presented with their different problems but pretend each of the three is equally damaged or each has equal issues, although different. I think a reasonable case could be made for that.  As I've said before, sometimes this show seems like some sort of social experiment to me. We have one tall, white, successful, handsome sib, one also tall, handsome and successful but black sib, and one grossly obese woman sib. Of the three, the one who IMO consistently gets the breaks in deleterious comments is the tall, handsome, successful, white guy. I don't think it's because he is obviously the most virtuous of the three. 

it's not unanimous but it seems skewed.    

Edited April 18, 2021 by BC4ME

[Lsk02]

On 4/14/2021 at 6:51 AM, coconspirator said:

But I think parents do have their fantasies of the “perfect family” that will never be spoken out loud. Maybe it’s because a child was born with a disability and there’s a ghost fantasy where the child they love is able to walk or talk like everyone else. Or a child begins to struggle with substance abuse and the ghost fantasy erases that painful part. It wouldn’t mean the parent doesn’t love their child unconditionally and it wouldn’t mean they were ungrateful; it seems normal for people to wonder “what if” when there are painful real life issues. 
 

In other words, if the character of Rebecca was a real person I would not be surprised if she had moments where she imagined what life would have been like if Kyle had lived, and then felt terribly guilty for erasing Randall. 

This is such a great description. It’s also true for many mothers who have had a miscarriage, then another baby after. Every time you grieve the baby you lost, you realize if that had not happened you wouldn’t have the family you have. The grief/guilt cycle is real. 

[Natalie25]

On 4/17/2021 at 10:54 AM, madmax said:

So every time a guy asks a woman to smile or whistles at her when she's crossing the street or is told "Damn, you hit hard for a girl" that's not a micro aggression? 

I agree that Kevin really hasn't experienced them as a white cis male, but to say that it's only against racial or ethnic minorities, as you have bolded, is incorrect.

So the definition includes "marginalized groups such as racial or ethnic minorities". Of course women are marginalized. Racial and ethnic minorities are an example of marginalized groups (as indicated by the "such as").

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, Natalie25 said:

So the definition includes "marginalized groups such as racial or ethnic minorities". Of course women are marginalized. Racial and ethnic minorities are an example of marginalized groups (as indicated by the "such as").

There are many more ethnicities than races, so someone can be a white, cis-gender, straight man and still be part of a marginalized group. That kind of discrimination is not as prevalent in the US today, but it used to be not too long ago, and still is in many parts of the world.

I myself am a very white (blonde, fair-skinned, blue-eyed) woman with an advanced degree and a well-compensated job, but I was born in a country where my family and I experienced systemic discrimination and became refugees as a result of it. We had to start over from nothing in a new country, where we also experienced discrimination for our refugee status (albeit not systemic). All of that is to say, you should never assume that someone has never experienced discrimination just because they're white.

Edited April 19, 2021 by chocolatine

[PRgal]

10 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

There are many more ethnicities than races, so someone can be a white, cis-gender, straight man and still be part of a marginalized group. That kind of discrimination is not as prevalent in the US today, but it used to be not too long ago, and still is in many parts of the world.

I myself am a very white (blonde, fair-skinned, blue-eyed) woman with an advanced degree and a well-compensated job, but I was born in a country where my family and I experienced systemic discrimination and became refugees as a result of it. We had to start over from nothing in a new country, where we also experienced discrimination for our refugee status (albeit not systemic). All of that is to say, you should never assume that someone has never experienced discrimination just because they're white.

Antisemitism is one, but Kevin isn’t Jewish.  Nor is he Catholic (and yes, antiCatholicism is still rampant in some parts).  He’s not lower income, nor is he really in an industry where his lack of college degree can cause discrimination.  Ageism, yeah, that’s creeping in for him.

[chocolatine]

11 hours ago, PRgal said:

Antisemitism is one, but Kevin isn’t Jewish.  Nor is he Catholic (and yes, antiCatholicism is still rampant in some parts).  He’s not lower income, nor is he really in an industry where his lack of college degree can cause discrimination.  Ageism, yeah, that’s creeping in for him.

I'm not saying that Kevin experienced discrimination, only that it's not right to assume that no white man ever has or ever will experience discrimination.

As for Kevin, I believe what he suffered from can be more accurately described as stereotyping. Jack and Rebecca assuming that he didn't need much attention at home because he was a popular and athletic kid, his coach and Randall telling him that he was stupid because he wasn't academically inclined, his agent and much of Hollywood thinking he couldn't really act and was only good for "hot dumb guy" roles.

Edited April 19, 2021 by chocolatine

[debraran]

8 hours ago, PRgal said:

Antisemitism is one, but Kevin isn’t Jewish.  Nor is he Catholic (and yes, antiCatholicism is still rampant in some parts).  He’s not lower income, nor is he really in an industry where his lack of college degree can cause discrimination.  Ageism, yeah, that’s creeping in for him.

Ageism..well later than for women if accurate. Women have to me "Mom's" much earlier even if aged. In an article where they had 30 or so examples, I remember Sally Field's the most since the contrast was so noticeable then. It said "In 1994, Sally Field played Tom Hanks' mom in the classic movie Forrest Gump. Field, who is only 10 years older than Hanks, had played his love interest in another movie only six years before." I doubt that will change or not for a long time.

I agree we all can get discriminated against but all the show and others want to highlight is if black, you have it as your clothing always. A pretty blonde who is foreign can suffer in some ways but a cop probably wont think "threat" when pulling her over or talk about her looking at a home near them.  I don't know how to search for it, but Randall did make a statement to Kevin once about not wanting to have a cop pull them over or something dealing with a cop when they were together. It wasn't something Kevin was going to let sink in, he might have acknowledged it but something Randall lived with.

I've said it before, the fact his race wasn't talked about especially with everything in the news from his birth on and before, was weird. As a review from one episode with Malik pointed out.

"As a Black person raised by a white family who did not talk about race, he was left to experience so much of his reality alone and in silence. When Malik tells him about the conversations he and his dad have, Randall remembers when Jonny Gammage was killed by Pittsburgh police in 1995 and how he watched the news coverage of it by himself. “It was a lot” for a kid to be alone with that, he tells Malik. He’s never said that out loud before." That was another asphyxiation death.

You can be loving as a parent,but still clueless.

Edited April 19, 2021 by debraran

[Blakeston]

20 hours ago, BC4ME said:

As I've said before, sometimes this show seems like some sort of social experiment to me. We have one tall, white, successful, handsome sib, one also tall, handsome and successful but black sib, and one grossly obese woman sib. Of the three, the one who IMO consistently gets the breaks in deleterious comments is the tall, handsome, successful, white guy. I don't think it's because he is obviously the most virtuous of the three. 

To be fair, Randall was by far the audience's favorite sibling in the early seasons.

[Ohiopirate02]

10 hours ago, PRgal said:

Antisemitism is one, but Kevin isn’t Jewish.  Nor is he Catholic (and yes, antiCatholicism is still rampant in some parts).  He’s not lower income, nor is he really in an industry where his lack of college degree can cause discrimination.  Ageism, yeah, that’s creeping in for him.

And while I love Kevin, he is the only Pearson allowed to fail up.  That is the mark of someone who has never faced discrimination.  We have seen Kevin walk off the set of his hit TV show, be a no-show at his Broadway debut, and get a DUI.  He still gets roles.  This episode also shows that he has also not blown his chance on the latest set he walked off.  A black, female or queer actor would not have a career after one of these.  

[Natalie25]

10 hours ago, chocolatine said:

All of that is to say, you should never assume that someone has never experienced discrimination just because they're white.

I agree with you there - there are many different groups of people that have been discriminated against over history, and you can never really know what another person has experienced. But when we're talking about Kevin, from what the show has portrayed he's not in any group that has been a part of systematic discrimination. I don't think he's going to have or really understand that experience, regardless of what other trouble in his life he may have. I say that as a Kevin fan! I think ageism has been mentioned, but that also affects women more than men in Hollywood, and I don't think he's old enough yet for Hollywood to have aged him out.

[circumvent]

19 minutes ago, Natalie25 said:

I think ageism has been mentioned, but that also affects women more than men in Hollywood, and I don't think he's old enough yet for Hollywood to have aged him out.

Kevin is 40. Brad Pitt is 57 (?) Clooney is 60 (?). Kevin has a long career ahead of him especially if he goes into producing, directing

[ShortyMac]

On 4/17/2021 at 10:17 AM, debraran said:

Remember this? I almost forgot

 

Bringing this back up is interesting. Randall was minimizing Kevin’s issues here, and Kevin was doing the same to Randall. 

[Kirkydee]

On 4/14/2021 at 8:51 PM, ECM1231 said:

Randall was intellectually gifted but why did Jack and Rebecca send him to that private school?  It was so long ago and I can't quite remember but I thought it was just a private school, which doesn't necessarily mean it was the best fit for gifted children.  Did the local public school not have any classes for gifted students? Wouldn't it have been better for Randall to have attended his local public school? Being that they lived in Pittsburgh, a city, there were bound to be other students of color and Randall would not have felt so out of place.  When I was a student many moons ago, schools had tracking and grouped students in either honors, 'regular' classes or the slower track.  I don't know if they still do that but when my children were in elementary school they did have an enrichment program for gifted students. Wasn't that possible in the 1980s in Pittsburgh? At least Randall would have seen other students who looked like him.

 

I haven't read all the posts yet, but it should be mentioned that the Pearson's lived in Bethel Park, a suburb of Pittsburgh.  They have no connection to Pittsburgh Public Schools.  The Black population in centralized to certain neighborhoods in Pittsburgh, along with some small towns just East of the city.  Therefore Randall's school would be probably have less POC than Bethel Park HS

[madmax]

14 hours ago, Kirkydee said:

I haven't read all the posts yet, but it should be mentioned that the Pearson's lived in Bethel Park, a suburb of Pittsburgh.  They have no connection to Pittsburgh Public Schools.  The Black population in centralized to certain neighborhoods in Pittsburgh, along with some small towns just East of the city.  Therefore Randall's school would be probably have less POC than Bethel Park HS

Definitely less POC in Bethel Park.  Still is.

However, back when I went to Pittsburgh Public Schools (PPS) in the late 70s, early 80s, sometimes students from outlying suburbs were included in the advanced school days run by PPS.  Maybe the 'burbs didn't have enough advanced students, maybe they didn't want to run their own program.  But there was at least one student from a different school district in a few of my years.

[PRgal]

On 4/19/2021 at 10:11 AM, circumvent said:

Kevin is 40. Brad Pitt is 57 (?) Clooney is 60 (?). Kevin has a long career ahead of him especially if he goes into producing, directing

Not when you’re a sitcom actor known for playing a hot dumb male.  Kevin had to try hard to prove Hollywood wrong. 

[Guest]

Time to move on instead of sniping back and forth. Focus on the episode and only the episode. 

[Rebky]

On 4/13/2021 at 11:14 PM, Bulldog said:

Geez.  Randall's incessant need for those around him to self flagellate is growing tiresome. 

No truer words - thank you for articulating that. Boom.

[Kdawg82]

This episode brought up some good points.  Interesting perspectives from the minds of siblings throughout the course of their lives.  I can understand part of that from my own childhood. My sister grew up on the plump side. I was the "skinny/pretty one." I can't help genetics but she grew up resentful of me and trying to bring me down a peg all through our lives. I never saw anything wrong with her until she started acting out on me with everything from tattle taling to making up outright lies to making fun and embarrassing me in front of people. I saw how some people would say things in front of her to either compliment me or maybe put her down with digs. Or compare us in front of our faces. She internalized things majorly and took them out on me. It didn't help mom forced us to dress identical...major issues when you do that to such different sized kids. She later got all the praises based on "kindness," "talents," etc. My mother called me the "pretty but stupid one" or I "have a nasty streak." Presumably to make up for years of us just being born looking different. It continued through adulthood. My sister claims all this emotional abuse by our family and I still am witness to the unending immunity she has in our mother's eyes. Everyone has their own truths and how they've experienced life. 

[RedbirdNelly]

White person here. I enjoyed the episode and expected a lot of anti-Randall posts on here. Unpopular opinion but I continue to like Randall. Is he flawless? no, but he's good at the core. The part that most got me was him explaining how he felt guilt in his fantasy--I get how hard that would be esp for a small child. The constant be grateful thing would be burdensome. I wanted more time for the brothers to really talk. Kevin meant well but his first speech/apology was way too polished and not getting to the meat of the matter--and even included an I apologize "if you felt" type bit. I cried at the end when they really apologized and hugged. I'm hoping this is the beginning of them building a stronger, truly understanding relationship. 

I loved seeing the painting and immediately thought back to season 1 and remember the painting episodes being one of my favorites. Kevin has always been wonderful with Tess and Annie. 

[Scarlett45]

On 4/14/2021 at 6:51 AM, coconspirator said:

But I think parents do have their fantasies of the “perfect family” that will never be spoken out loud. Maybe it’s because a child was born with a disability and there’s a ghost fantasy where the child they love is able to walk or talk like everyone else. Or a child begins to struggle with substance abuse and the ghost fantasy erases that painful part. It wouldn’t mean the parent doesn’t love their child unconditionally and it wouldn’t mean they were ungrateful; it seems normal for people to wonder “what if” when there are painful real life issues. 
 

In other words, if the character of Rebecca was a real person I would not be surprised if she had moments where she imagined what life would have been like if Kyle had lived, and then felt terribly guilty for erasing Randall. 

So much this. I agree very much.
 

So much of Kevin’s experiences remind me some of my peers in my sibling disability support group/advocacy work. Kevin is the “normal” child.

Rebecca probably did wonder what life would be like if Kyle had lived. She may have wondered if he would’ve been typical or had health problems related to his birth. She probably had many complex feelings about it. But being a mother, if anything she wrote in her journal, and tried not to take it out on her kids. Add in that personality wise she “gelled” with Randal as an individual (which happens between parents with kids). Even if Randall hadn’t been her son she would have liked him as a human being- likely more than Kevin or Kate.

I put more blame on Jack and Rebecca for allowing Kevin to be rude and mean to Randall when they were growing up. But you’re right, Jack is dead and Rebecca is now sick. I also think Kevin resents Randall for being academically smarter and well loved because there’s a touch of white male privilege where he was SUPPOSED to be the favorite child just because he was the first born white male healthy and typical. 
 

I think if Kyle had lived and had a serious disability, Kevin would be acting the same way.  I think Kevin is very insecure, although he has the most things “going for him”. And sometimes in his insecurities he does things he shouldn’t. I understand this more from 12yrs old Kevin, 40yrs old Kevin not so much. 

On 4/14/2021 at 5:13 PM, Blakeston said:

I think one can accept that Randall's feelings and complaints are very valid, and also believe that the way he's handled things has been...well...self-absorbed and whiny.

The issue is how he makes everything about himself and his childhood. His own daughter was raised in a car by an incompetent mother. Yet whenever she talked about her experiences, all he could do was compare his childhood to hers.

He knows how painful discrimination is, and yet we see him paying no attention to his fresh-out-of-the-closet daughter, who will have to navigate America as a queer Black woman.

He's in a position as a city councilman to make real change for racial justice. And maybe he is, but we don't get to hear about it, because we just get to hear Randall obsess over and over again about how he didn't have the childhood he wanted.

I agree with this too. 
 

But Randall was a fucking AWFUL son for manipulating Rebecca how he did and I’m still not over that. I may never be, cause there was no cause for that Randall!
 

Kevin had every right to call him out to that. 
 

I am glad the brothers actually had a real conversation for once. Randall should have addressed how he did relish in being the dutiful son and Rebecca’s favorite after Jack died.
 

Edited to add- the preschool Pearson boys are amazingly precious!!!!!!

[Zonk]

On 4/14/2021 at 4:02 AM, CleoCaesar said:

Randall is, was, and will always be such a whiny, entitled, smug, self-pitying, condescending, oversensitive, self-righteous, insufferable little bitch. I hate that fucker more than any other character on TV.

Randall at Karaoke:

(I hope "mimimimimimi" as the sound somebody whiny makes isn't just a german thing, otherwiese this doesn't make much sense.)

 

But seriously. How whiny can you be? I mean I get that you had problems growing up as a black kid in a white world, but how is that your brothers fault? Your brother who often felt left out as a kid, because your parents treated you special and is now trying to bend over backwards to apologize for any wrongs he might have done you when you were kids over 20 years ago.

I mean seriously. Do the writers think we can relate to this? Because I can't. Randall acts like a 14 year old boy, not a 40 year old man.

  

On 4/14/2021 at 5:50 AM, Blakeston said:

Race played a significant role, and Kevin acknowledged it himself.

Race wasn't just some vague undercurrent in the tension between them - Kevin flat-out made fun of Randall for not being "Black enough," sided with the bullies who taunted Randall by calling him "Webster," and said straight-up racially offensive things like the line about how any ID of a Black man is a good match for him.

And if it hadn't been race it would have been something else. Kevin resented Randall because he got special treatment. Because of that he used what he could against him. So while race might have been the weapon, it wasn't the cause and I don't think choice of weapon is "a significant role". No matter how much the writers try to retcon it.

On 4/14/2021 at 6:07 AM, phalange said:

Also that they showed how microagressions can really add up, like the guy assuming young Randall wasn’t Jack’s son. 

That's not a micro agression, that's an honest msitake, even if it must suck when it happens to you as ayoung kid.

On 4/14/2021 at 6:09 PM, Liquid6 said:

I’m a 41 year old black man, so of course EVERYTHING that Randall suffers from makes perfect sense to me. That’s why it breaks my heart to come into this forum weekly and see all of the “Randall’s entitled, whiney, ungrateful, selfish etc.” comments from people who will NEVER understand Randall’s side for the obvious reason. Randall taught Kevin a valuable lesson in this episode that no he doesn’t believe that Kevin is a racist, he just wants Kevin to be aware of the micro aggressions that he has spent a lifetime displaying. That was a great lesson for all white people but instead, it’s been misconstrued as another example of “Whiney Randall” by non black people. It’s disheartening yet a clear eye opener of why race relations are the way that they are now. 

That's not the point though.

While as a white man I probably can't appreciate what Randall went through as a child, I think as a gay man, I can at least appreciate part of it.

But the point is, that all of that isn't his brothers fault. They were kids and they often didn't get along for various reasons, race being really more of a minor one, except maybe for the fact that their parents overcompensated even more because of it. And in previous seasons Randall really gave as much as he got, if not more.

Now, when Randall tries to lay these problems at his brothers feet, pretty solely, it seems, it makes him come off as increadibly whiny, because the blame is just completely misdirected.

On 4/15/2021 at 5:08 PM, sadie said:

And because it can’t be said enough “St Jack” was hardly this perfect dad they want us to believe and I’m over the flashbacks, we have had enough of a look back to get the history, can we move on please. Milo can find acting work on another show.

Yeah, I'm really over the flashbacks too. I know it's the shows gimmick, but they just don't add anything meaningfull anymore and really havent for the past two seasons. I find myself fast forewarding through most of them.

And I'm still very much interested in the present-stuff, otherwise I wouldn have quit this show a long time ago.

On 4/15/2021 at 5:09 PM, circumvent said:

Because it is not the job of oppressed minorities to get the non-oppressed to see their bias.

Well I guess then nothing will ever get any better.

On 4/15/2021 at 5:09 PM, circumvent said:

I guess it was the point Randall was trying to make. Kevin just assumed that after a "sorry" he was off the hook, no more work, not more soul searching, if you will.

That is certainly the most uncherishable interpretation imagineable.

On 4/15/2021 at 5:09 PM, circumvent said:

Because this is not a micro-aggression, because Kevin is not oppressed in any way by a system.

That's not how micro agressions work.

Also calling somebody stupid is a pretty clear macro agression. Nothing micro about it.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Zonk

[PortaBella]

On 4/14/2021 at 12:07 AM, phalange said:

I liked when Randall pointed out to Kevin how exhausting it is for him to have to feel like he should be grateful for being adopted. Also that they showed how microagressions can really add up, like the guy assuming young Randall wasn’t Jack’s son. 

Regarding why Randall pictures his life with his birth parents as a happy one at the end despite knowing it realistically wouldn’t be, it was just part of his ghost kingdom. Or as Daniel Tiger called it, it’s his “neighborhood of make-believe.” I loved that scene with little Randall talking to Daniel Tiger because he needed someone to tell him he wasn’t a bad kid for having make-believe parents.

I don’t understand how that was a micro aggression. I’m the guy in charge of the line of kids and I see a white kid next to a white kid with a white adult male. Of course I’m going to think that the white kid and the black kid are with the white guy. NOT. The man in charge of the line used common sense, logic, deductible reasoning, call it what you will. calling it a micro aggression perpetuates the damage that is done in this pc culture when the man making an innocent presumption is now labeled the “attacker”. There is not always evil intent going on. Of course for the purposes of the writers having to create a scenario showing Randall as a “victim”, this is what they came up with. They could have done better. 

[MyrnaMinkoff]

On 4/15/2021 at 3:07 PM, circumvent said:

Not ok, just pointing out that discrimination within the black population is not about race but about class - although there is also colorism within the black population

 

Again: true. But it should not be used as an excuse for being discriminatory or grading the discrimination. Kevin is not systemically

discriminated against, to put into context the reason for the conversation going this way

That's all true but the reason why this conversation went from racial bias and racial micro aggressions to discrimination in general shows why we are still miles away from any understanding on racial disparities and systemic racism. It is whataboutism. It is the "but..." that denies the previous statement. It is white people still not willing to stop reacting and stop to analyze. The theme was race, now it is yeah, race but...how about the other people. Well, the other people, the other biases are for another episode? It is fair to discuss them as long as it doesn't function as a form of diminishing the reality of someone n Randall's position. It is hard to see such a theme addressed in a fair way, I guess this was a pretty good episode. 

I don't think he expected Kevin to know everything, I think he was indicating to Kevin that simply apologizing without trying to really understanding why the relationship was at that place was pointless, because it would be just a performative thing. As I said way upthread, Kevin recognized that he was wrong, but took the easy route without even considering why Randall was acting like that. Maybe if he said:" I apologize for being a dick but I am having trouble understanding why thing s got so bad between us, andI know you are seeing a therapist, maybe I was a little insensitive, can you help me understand this?" That would have been Kevin doing the job of asking for guidance instead of simply expecting Randall to see he that he loves him, he is a good guy (he is) and they should just let bygones be bygones. It doesn't work that way. Healing requires so much more

That's  a ompletely different thing, it is a personal preference, or lack of preference. Although it does inform bias. You are being biased because something in Randall that you don't like. You can still be biased and see the validity of Randall's argument - if you want to

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by MyrnaMinkoff

[KittyQ]

I'm only in the middle of this episode, but for what is worth, my personal experience is that siblings have many resentments, even without the element of race. There are always feelings that one has gotten more attention or is more entitled than the other. Perhaps tossing race into the mix makes it harder, but our family at least was far from Wally & Beaver, or the Brady Bunch in terms of people feeling that they've somehow gotten shortchanged. A shame, but to some degree, maturity helps with it.

To add: Face it, kids are tremendously self-centered, for the most part. We kind of think the world revolves around us, and it doesn't come easily for us to understand what other people are going through or to understand other points of view beyond a somewhat shallow perspective. Whatever slights Randall and Kevin inflicted on each other, the chances are that they were not based on a full understanding of what their brother's issues were.

Edited November 19, 2021 by KittyQ

[Emily Thrace]

On 4/14/2021 at 6:53 AM, greekmom said:

 

Word to both.

Randall needs a therapist would will spell out exactly what his life would be like if he was a)kept by William and Laurel or b) left in the system to be adopted by a nice middle class black family.   The stats that it would have happened would have been minimal as a baby. He would have been put in the foster care system with no family.  Randall needs to wake up, smell the coffee and be grateful for being adopted by a nice middle class family straight from birth.  Look at Deja and her issues in the first season she was introduced to us.  Being in and out of the system just does a number on you.  And didn't Rebecca and Jack have those family friends that Randall use to go to that were black? They did the best they could under the circumstances and Randall wouldn't have gone to that fancy school with either a or b options above.

Sorry guys. I really hate the Randall character. So far almost as much as I dislike Kate.

The thing is though Randall didn't ask to be adopted. Why should he grateful for something he had no say in and effectively stripped him of his identity? Yes the adoption may have saved him from a terrible fate but it also cost him something no money could ever buy back and even love couldn't fill. Randall is allowed to mourn the life he didn't have. (Its not that different than Beth mourning the life she pictured for Tess). It doesn't mean he doesn't love his parents it just means the adoption cost him something. Which is true of all adoptees even same race ones. IMO the only people in an adoption who should be grateful are the adoptive parents they are usually the only ones who don't lose something in the process. 

[greekmom]

4 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

The thing is though Randall didn't ask to be adopted. Why should he grateful for something he had no say in and effectively stripped him of his identity? 

Randall didn't ask to be born to two parents to who are addicts. People are delt with a set of circumstances and he was delt with two addicts for parents and one of them who dumped him at the fire station in a moment of desperation and grief.

Randall should be grateful that a nice family adopted him.  He wasn't stripped of any identity because he didn't have an identity - he was what? a day old?  Almost carte blanche.

[Emily Thrace]

8 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Randall didn't ask to be born to two parents to who are addicts. People are delt with a set of circumstances and he was delt with two addicts for parents and one of them who dumped him at the fire station in a moment of desperation and grief.

Randall should be grateful that a nice family adopted him.  He wasn't stripped of any identity because he didn't have an identity - he was what? a day old?  Almost carte blanche.

By being raised by white people in white neighborhood it cost Randall a lot of his identity as a black man. That's kinda one of the main points of his story. 

Why do you decide how Randall feels? Other than some assumption that his fate would have been terrible without the Pearson's. (Which isn't necessarily true btw. ) People are allowed to feel however they want, its forcing our own expectations on them that is the problem. That's a big part of what Randall is upset about. He was never allowed to wonder or express his loss because people like you decided it means he loves Jack and Rebecca less or is "ungrateful". Which is simplistic and really unfair to Randall.