S07.E02: The Speed of Thought

[Trini]

When Barry suddenly gains the power of speed thinking, he attempts to use his new gift to save Iris. While Barry is thrilled with his new power, Cisco is hesitant to trust it. Meanwhile, Eva must face a shattering truth.

Stefan Pleszczynski directed the episode written by Jonathan Butler & Gabriel Garza.

Airdate: 3/9/2021

[Trini]

 

[scarynikki12]

Allegra gives good reactions. She and Cisco were fun opposite Barry’s super thinking.

ThinkerBarry really lost the plot didn’t he? Of course Iris wouldn’t want to be the only one returning home. Should have listened to Cisco and avoided this problem.

Guess Tom hasn’t left after all. We finally get to hang out with OG Wells?

[shantown]

What I got from that is Killer Frost won't experience any consequences from taking the Velocity drug, and we're about to get stuck with original recipe Wells. Ugh.

[Terrafamilia]

Um, thinking faster is not the same thing as thinking higher/better/smarter. And Barry could already think faster. Remember him speed-reading?

[bettername2come]

I enjoyed this one. Cisco being back was a large part of it. Loved his attitude and standing up against Barry. I thought Grant did a good job with this version of the character. I totally fell for Cavanagh being gone. I groaned at Original Wells being back. 4 years ago I'd have been delighted. Didn't think Danielle would be back from maternity leave, but I guess she's had almost a year. She looked good. 

[Pepper the Cat]

Well crap, I missed an episode. No wonder I was so confused. Any recommendations of how someone in Canada can see  episode one?
anyway, do not like Super Smart Barry. I do not want to watch something that makes me wants to reach into the TV and slap the heck outta someone. 

[immortalfrieza]

Oh come on writers! You had the perfect opportunity to have everybody give Barry a Reason You Suck speech comparing him to Devoe and you missed it! On that note:

42 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

ThinkerBarry really lost the plot didn’t he? Of course Iris wouldn’t want to be the only one returning home. Should have listened to Cisco and avoided this problem.

That was the same issue Devoe had and why he ultimately lost. He was so intelligent but for some reason had the inability to even recognize the emotions of others much less plan for them. It's TV logic: Emotionlessness=Intelligence=Disregarding emotion entirely=Stupidity. The idea that someone could be really really intelligent and still emotional or at least able to account for emotion seems lost when trying to depict that someone is intelligent.

So... with Barry destroying the ASF does that mean Nash died for... precisely jack diddly at least so far?

[Gregg247]

Step 1: Killer Frost shows up to surprise the Bad Guy

Step 2: KF makes some tough-guy quip and attacks

Step 3: The Bad Guy is surprised and attacks back

Step 4: KF is overwhelmed and knocked senseless

Has there EVER been a KF episode where the above didn't happen in exactly this same way?  I like KF, and Caitlyn is one of my favorite characters, but KF must really stand for Kannon Fodder because she never wins any of her battles.  The writers really need to mix things up some (or else just kill KF off once and for all).

Edited March 10, 2021 by Gregg247

[immortalfrieza]

1 minute ago, Gregg247 said:

Step 1: Killer Frost shows up to surprise the Bad Guy

Step 2: KF makes some tough-guy quip and attacks

Step 3: The Bad Guy is surprised and attacks back

Step 4: KF is overwhelmed and knocked senseless

Has there EVER been a KF episode where the above didn't happen in exactly this same way?  I like KF, and Caitlyn is one of my favorite characters, but KF must really stand for Kannon Fodder because she never wins any of her battles.  The writers really need to mix things up some (or else just kill KF off once and for all).

The writers have had an obsession throughout the show of making Barry do EVERYTHING even when it makes more sense for someone else to do it. This means that even if the rest of the cast gets powers and thus can at least contribute in some way, they tend to end up almost never actually being effective with their powers. It's no surprise that the whole team got their asses handed to them by ThinkerBarry since Barry is the only one allowed to actually beat anyone, ever.

[thuganomics85]

The memoriam for Wells was overdramatic enough to make me suspect that we haven't seen the last of him, but I'll admit it still effected me.  I blame most of it on Carlos Valdes really being able to convey the relationship between Cisco and Wells(s?), and Jesse L. Martin never meeting a sappy speech he couldn't sell.  But since he's still in the credits and opening title, it's no surprise that Tom Cavanagh is sticking around as.... Original Wells?  As in, the Wells who was actually killed by Eobard Thawne?  Hmm...

Good news!  Barry's new power grants him the ability to super think as well!  Bad news!  It's kind of made him almost an emotionless robot, who uses logic and "critical thinking" in a way were emotion and actually caring about his team; even Iris: are a nuisance to him, leading to a lot of his decisions being... well, kind of right in some ways but also very, very morally wrong?  Definitely getting some Thinker vibes here, although since I'm currently watching Supernatural for the first time, it's reminding me of 

Spoiler

season six when Sam loses his soul and does some... questionable things.

Grant Gustin did a great job with it, although I feels like he's always been pretty good when he gets to be evil.  I guess you can say he's talented!

Caitlin/Killer Frost returns and does what she does best: be snarky, show off her ice power and... get knocked out by the baddie.  Not exactly a grand return, to put it mildly.

Thanks to Smarty Barry, Eva being Mirror Eva has been exposed to the world, which successfully caused her to meltdown but now she's just going to create an entire Mirror army and take over the world.  Thanks, Smarty Barry!

While I hope Kamilla is saved for Cisco's sake, I'm more worried about Singh.  Don't you dare kill him off, show!

Thought this was better than last week's episode and I'm curious to see how this all plays out.  Still curious to know how this originally would have went down if it weren't for the shutdowns.

[Lantern7]

From last week's thread:

On 3/3/2021 at 1:09 AM, Lantern7 said:

Are we done with the ongoing Surplus of Infinite Wellses? The only idea of a return that would work for me is if Barry winds up having a Jedi Ghost Wells that only he can see and hear, and it turns out to be Harrison Wells . . . the one who was killed and impersonated by Reverse Flash.

I don't think it's a matter of me being smart so much as it was that predictable. I can't recall Barry ever meeting Original Recipe Harrison Wells, so he was pretty much the next logical step. I think that I am entitled to be proud, right?

This week: Grant goes from expressing many personalities to showing no emotion. I kept waiting for an inevitable scene where Barry is at the start of the episode, realizing that his enhanced intelligence (or "Speed Brain," or whatever you want to call it) would be more hurtful in the long run. Nope . . . he forcibly pulls Iris from Mirror World, and now she looks like she's suffering the bends. And it actually happened. Why couldn't Barry just be Bel and/or Biv?

Back when DC Comics was reinventing the wheel with "New52," The Flash introduced the concept of Barry thinking faster. I think it was better done there than on TV. What we saw was pretty decent, though.

I'm losing track of recently-added characters and plot devices. What was the deal with the Quantum Ball? It looks as dangerous as Happy Fun Ball. I don't remember Velocity Zero or Velocity X.

[tennisgurl]

The goodbyes to all of the many Wells actually fooled me into thinking that this really was the end of the Million Wells's but of course there is always another. They're like a Hydra, you cut off one Wells and three more grow in its place. I am at least kind of interested in seeing the actual Harrison Wells, as I always felt sorry for the poor guy getting murdered by a psychopath from the future and having his good name smeared by his murderer, but its been so long its hard to get onboard. 

Barry turning into an emotionless robot version of himself because he can think ahead seemed really weird, its not like he normally cant think really fast. Speed reading and all that, and he was always fine he didnt get his emotions turned off or anything. I think they tied it into Barry's guilt and feeling like his emotions have caused him nothing but trouble pretty well and you can tell that Grant always enjoys playing different versions of Barry, especially evil ones, but the way we got there was just so odd. Its not a bad idea though, and we did make some really quick plot progression because of it! ThinkerBarry really should have remembered how Thinker was brought down though, people do not normally act "logically" and they make choices based on emotions and their connections with others, so of course this would end up happening. I think my favorite moment from ThinkerBarry was when Cisco put his hand on his arm, and Barry looked really slowly at his hand then back again. It was like he was trying to understand why Cisco would be touching his arm, you could see his mind spinning to understand, because ThinkerBarry has no concept of friendship or empathy. They are at least going to apparently save everyone stuck in the mirror thanks to ThinkerBarry so that's something at least, even if now Iris is hurt and Kamilla and Singh are still stuck in the mirror and not doing well. 

Nice to see Cisco back, and his memorial for the many Wells was actually quite affecting, even now knowing that there is one more still around. He was always the closest to the many many Wells so its nice that he got that moment, plus I am always a sucker for a Joe speech. Cisco really had to be back for this one, he is the closest person to Barry around other than Joe so he has to try to get through to Barry, even if it didnt exactly work. 

Also returning is Killer Frost, here to do all of her greatest hits. Get talked up, say a snarky one liner, show off her powers, and get her ass kicked. Despite not having much to do either, I actually preferred Allegra. I like the energy she brings to Star Labs. 

ThinkerBarry exposed Eva, which I guess seemed like a good idea at the time, but has now lead to her having a full meltdown and is going full on supervillain. Whoops. 

On the plus side, Iris is finally out of the mirror! On the not so plus side, she is really hurt and she was dragged out by creepy monotone Barry all brain fucked on weird speed, depriving them (and me) of a big reunion kiss. At least this seemed to have gotten Barry back to normal again, and just in time for what is presumably the actual season finale. This episode had its issues, but I think it was an improvement on last week. 

[Trini]

So they really couldn't let us go an entire episode without a Wells. ::shakes head::  I'll come back to this later.

Speaking of things that only lasted one episode; Bye, Artificial Speed Force! So all the Wellses died for nothing? Okay well, Barry did accomplish a few things, but I'm pretty sure Nash was hoping that Barry would have his speed for more than a week(?) after he sacrificed himself. I always thought that the ASF was a dumb idea, but I thought it would last longer after all that buildup.

Even though I was not a fan of the multiple Wellses, I get that the team would have a tribute -- however, the fact that they apparently have an entire memorial room seemed really morbid to me.

This should not be the show's policy:

 

I mean, how am I supposed to root for our heroes when there's a more than likely chance that their wins turn into losses?  It breeds pessimism for a show that used to be known for its optimism.

Anyway, speed thinking* + loss of emotion was an interesting combo of side effects from the ASF. I think Grant did a good job of gradually becoming Thinker!Flash. I know all the speeches about heart and emotions were there for contrast against emotionless Barry, but I wonder if they will actually have that tie into anything next episode.

*(um- Shouldn't Barry already have speed thinking??)

I'm more convinced now that they cut scenes of Ralph and Sue (and maybe Iris/Kamilla/Singh?). Besides adding in stuff for Frost, that whole action/VFX sequence with Frost + Team vs. Flash seemed extra-long.

Speaking of returned characters; it was good to have Cisco back! I was really hoping that he would be able to get through to Barry before he opened the portal. Disappointed that Captain Singh was only there to lay on the ground. Well, at least P. Sabongui got a paycheck!

Supposedly Singh was shot with the mirror gun... but, how?? When? Was it Mirror Iris?

I don't even care about the Eva anymore. I'm sure there'll be a ridiculous last-minute save next week.

Alright, so we got Barry rescuing Iris  -- but in the worst way possible? Not cool Wallace. The one good thing was them using the theme of (only) Iris being able to bring Barry back to himself. (Is there a name for this trope?) After spending nearly the whole arc separated, couldn't even have a happy reunion.  SIGH

Back to the Wells end tag (which could have totally waited until the next episode); I actually have wanted to see the original timeline Harrison Wells, but, now? Now is when you bring him back?? After I'm tired of any Wells?? Besides the fact that it makes no sense. That better be Reverse Flash. I'm tired. Eric needs to commit to cutting some cast members.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Trini

[BeautifulFlower]

As many others have pointed out on twitter, Killer Frost shouldn't have been able to use speed. This show has literally said that speed and frost DO NOT MIX. They cancel each other out. Killer Frost's body is literally cold on the inside which means she shouldn't have gotten speed. Are these writers allergic to looking up previous important details.

[rmontro]

Speedsters have to think fast, or else they would always be crashing into things at super speed.

I liked Barry's robotic personality and expressions.

And I guess every season we have to have a new spin on the Wells character(s).

[AnimeMania]

This is the only time that I thought Barry would have been smart enough to have created his supercompter Gideon. Seems like a wasted opportunity.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Guess I'm the outlier. I didn't care for this at all. Except for the beginning, when Cisco said "he be freaky" about Barry's "new" ability.

I was stupid enough to think that Iris, Singh, and Kamilla would be saved and this show could just FUCKING MOVE ON, already.

I've never had any doubts about Grant's talent, and he didn't disappoint last night. But, COME ON, ALREADY.

For a mini-second, okay, 10 seconds, as Iris was screaming and refusing to go through, I thought her fingers would touch Barry's and that electricity sparkly thingie would happen and Barry would snap out of it and save everyone. Stupid me.

So the show runner and everyone else who's sooooo excited about what's coming can just STFU. I'm so fucking tired of this star-crossed love idiotic story lines, because PLOT! Just write and give me a show I can enjoy again. Just stop with the angst!

[Lady Calypso]

For a penultimate season six episode, to build things up to the finale, they did a good job. And even for a second episode, they did fairly well. I think Grant, once again, did a really solid job, but this episode was much, much better than last episode's challenges. It was creepy to see ThinkerBarry in the driver's seat. It kind of reinforced the idea that The Flash can be one of the most powerful people out there, and the most scary without his emotions. He was technically right on everything he was saying, which makes it twice as terrifying. 

Having the team literally need to FIGHT him and them losing, all while Barry was taunting them, was probably even scarier than the real Villain Barry/Savitar. I'd add ThinkerBarry in the top ten villains for this show.

I mean, good that Iris got pulled out of the Mirrorverse finally. But it looks like all that time in there (a couple of months) has changed her enough where it seems like she might have trouble SURVIVING in the real world. Her DNA has probably changed quite a bit, especially since she's tapped into the Mirrorverse, so we'll see how Barry and the team save her this time.

But poor Singh and Kamilla. I assume they'll be saved, so hopefully they do that soon.

Frost injecting herself with Velocity X for a two minute superspeed fight? Uh...I guess it was a cool effect (they've stepped it up on effects this season) but makes very little sense as to why they did that.

Ok, so I figured Harrison Wells 1.0 would return at some point...but season 7 may be too late to bring him back. I did enjoy poor Harrison Wells' backstory and felt sad when he got brutally murdered just for his face, but we're seven seasons in and so much has changed since his first appearance. And I'm just tired of Tom Cavanagh. And now I fear that the Council of Wells was reborn inside of this Harrison so we'll never be rid of any version of Wells, even with this one.

 

[shantown]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I was stupid enough to think that Iris, Singh, and Kamilla would be saved and this show could just FUCKING MOVE ON, already.

I get that they had stuff filmed for the end of last season already and wanted to use it, and I know they had to wrap up these stories. But I really think they should have just expedited all the mirrorverse and Eva stuff into one episode, like a S7E00, and wrapped it up quick. I don't care about this stuff anymore, it was already dragging last year, so still slogging through it a year later is awful. Wrap it up!

Also it irked me to NO END that even though Killer Frost should not have been able to have speed powers with her cold powers, that she was INSTANTLY an expert at having speed to the level of being able to use her other powers at the same time AND was on par when battling Barry. And will face no repercussions on having used a velocity drug. 

Wondering if Barry will keep his speedier speed thinking past this week / the end of the season 6 stuff, or if was a plot device.

[Trini]

It's also a retcon that Harrison's body is still on the side of that road; it was found in season 1.

Whatever version of Wells this is is going to get replaced AGAIN anyway; I don't understand why they waste time on unnecessary characters that suck up screentime just so Tom can get a paycheck. I promise the show will be fine without him.

On a different note, at least Barry screwing over everyone and everything for Iris is consistent! Can they just let him have speed thinking the rest of the show, please? He doesn't need a team; and definitely not one this big.

30 minutes ago, shantown said:

Wondering if Barry will keep his speedier speed thinking past this week / the end of the season 6 stuff, or if was a plot device.

It was certainly a plot device, but they should let him keep it.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Trini
love it when typos get quoted :(

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 minutes ago, Trini said:

On a different note, at least Barry screwing over everyone and everything for iris is consistent!

But it wasn't for Iris herself. It was because she was in there the longest and had the most information on Eva. He just wanted to use her. I mean, referring to her as a "target" because that's what she and the others were?

 

11 minutes ago, shantown said:

Wondering if Barry will keep his speedier speed thinking past this week / the end of the season 6 stuff, or if was a plot device.

Totally a plot device, as so much of this show is.

[tennisgurl]

Kind of depressing that Nash and the rest all basically sacrificed themselves for something that just got busted the very next day. 

It also strikes me as rather morbid that they have an entire room as a memorial for their deceased friends and allies. Its nice to memorialize everyone who they have lost, but I don't think Barry needs a whole room at the labs where he can sit for hours and beat himself up over his perceived failures. Even Joe was like "Barry I know where your heads at, stop that right now" when Barry was starting his next guilt ridden angst freak out, but even a Joe speech couldn't stop him. 

[KaveDweller]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Kind of depressing that Nash and the rest all basically sacrificed themselves for something that just got busted the very next day. 

Was the artificial speed force totally busted? I thought they were shutting it down to try and fix it. Don't they need to for Barry to keep his speed? Otherwise I agree, super depressing. 

I am confused about how original Harrison Wells could be back. Did someone go back and time to change something?

[rmontro]

10 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I was stupid enough to think that Iris, Singh, and Kamilla would be saved and this show could just FUCKING MOVE ON, already.

This whole Mirrorverse plotline is probably one of the dumbest things they've ever done, and stretching it out over the whole season is too much.  That scene with Iris fighting to keep from being pulled out of it looked especially ridiculous.

[AD35]

9 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Having the team literally need to FIGHT him and them losing, all while Barry was taunting them, was probably even scarier than the real Villain Barry/Savitar. I'd add ThinkerBarry in the top ten villains for this show.

It will probably never happen but I would love for this version of Barry to go against the Eobard Thawne version of Reverse Flash in some future encounter.  It was sooooooooooo good to see Cisco again.  While I'm glad that Iris finally got out of the mirrorverse, not so happy about Singh and Kamilla still trapped there.  Or that this storyline is getting dragged out for at least another episode. It has me longing for the early days of Barry going against the villain of the week for one episode. 

[Trini]

46 minutes ago, rmontro said:

This whole Mirrorverse plotline is probably one of the dumbest things they've ever done, and stretching it out over the whole season is too much.  ...

The pacing has been terrible. Hardly anything happened on the Mirrorverse side for most of the arc; only really in the last half.  Barry and co. didn't even know about Iris and the others until way too late. They fumbled Black Hole. (It's Eva's mission to take them down now, not Iris'??)

I've said before that the show has good ideas (for season arcs) but the execution is mostly lacking; but with this Mirrorverse arc I feel the idea wasn't good. It mainly ended up being tedious. Though, I admit there were good moments.

It also doesn't help that I've already seen "trapped in a different dimension" stories done better.

---

Hopefully this is the last thing I say about the Wells tease (lol): They had tributes to Nash/Wells/etc. in both this episode and the last one, because he(they) supposedly died, but they bring him back right away? Come on. How can we miss you if you won't leave??

[KaveDweller]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

This whole Mirrorverse plotline is probably one of the dumbest things they've ever done, and stretching it out over the whole season is too much.  That scene with Iris fighting to keep from being pulled out of it looked especially ridiculous.

Didn't they get cut off from filming last season? I am guessing the planned to wrap this up in the original S6 finale, since that is their usual style.

But they should be wrapping it up ASAP this year. I don't even remember anything that happened last season, and I am guessing most viewers are in similar mindsets. 

[immortalfrieza]

14 hours ago, Trini said:

It's also a retcon that Harrison's body is still on the side of that road; it was found in season 1.

"But but but but CRISIS!!!" is probably going to be their answer to that, if they even address it at all. It's interesting that OG Wells was the only Wells we knew of that we never saw in the Council of Well even though HR was also dead and yet somehow showed up.

Quote

On a different note, at least Barry screwing over everyone and everything for Iris is consistent! Can they just let him have speed thinking the rest of the show, please? He doesn't need a team; and definitely not one this big.

The only reason Barry even needs a team at all is because the writers keep making him into a colossal moron of a screw up who can't seem to do jack as a superhero unless he has "the team" around to actually tell him how to superhero in nearly any given situation. It was made clear from the word jump when Barry started showing the speed thinking that he was quickly rendering the entire Team redundant. That's why they got rid of his speed thinking so quickly and made it turn him bad rather than just making him super smart, if Barry was smart and effective Team Flash wouldn't actually have a reason to exist.

Quote

Whatever version of Wells this is is going to get replaced AGAIN anyway; I don't understand why they waste time on unnecessary characters that suck up screentime just so Tom can get a paycheck. I promise the show will be fine without him.

I don't mind the fact that they keep bringing in Tom, I mind the fact that for some reason they JUST. WON'T. STOP. switching to different versions of Wells over and over and OVER again. Instead we get Reverse Flash Wells, then Harry, then this useless sack of a screw up HR, then Harry again, a Sherlock Wells, Nash, and now apparently OG Wells back from the dead. I'd much rather they had just picked one and stuck with it. Hell, they had used the same Wells twice in two seasons (Harry) and even when he wasn't a Team Flash member made frequent appearances probably because he was the most popular one bar none. They should've just gone with Harry and called it a day if they were going to pick any of them.

[RobertDeSneero]

On 3/9/2021 at 10:16 PM, tennisgurl said:

Barry turning into an emotionless robot version of himself because he can think ahead seemed really weird, its not like he normally cant think really fast.

They explained it in-story.  Thawne's artificial speed force was stabilized by negative emotion.  To avoid doing that, they used an inert substance to stabilize Barry's speed force.  Cisco hypothesized that Barry's lack of emotion was caused by doing that, so it wasn't a by-product of becoming more intelligent.

This suggests that there is a way to stabilize the speed force in some other way that allows Barry to have normal emotion.  The obvious and oh-so-comic-y solution would be for the ASF to somehow be stabilized by Barry's love for Iris, which would make sense since he is the Paragon of Love.

[Whodunnit]

The emotionless genius stereotype needs to be retired. One of the sweetest people I've ever met also happens to be someone with a scary high IQ.

[Quark]

I thought this was a great episode.

The concept of a Barry that thinks faster is great during coronavirus times considering that Barry managed to out Eva and get Iris back from the Mirrorverse all because of it. So if another pandemic hits (hopefully not) and disrupts the filming of The Flash, I imagine ThinkerBarry will return 😛. I got loads of Sheldon Cooper vibes from him.

It was great seeing Cisco again. Can't say I care for Killer Frost.

Another Wells. Sigh. Really don't care even if could be the original one. I've had enough.

[dkb]

On 3/9/2021 at 9:51 PM, Pepper the Cat said:

Well crap, I missed an episode. No wonder I was so confused. Any recommendations of how someone in Canada can see  episode one?
anyway, do not like Super Smart Barry. I do not want to watch something that makes me wants to reach into the TV and slap the heck outta someone. 

Netflix is where I watch the episodes. Usually up a day after it airs in the USA.

[Lantern7]

5 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

The emotionless genius stereotype needs to be retired. One of the sweetest people I've ever met also happens to be someone with a scary high IQ.

I think the implication is those that have a few hundred IQ points handed to them would go full Vulcan, as opposed to a person growing up and getting smarter over time. It explains why Devoe didn’t wear tight clothing and dance to “Poison” when he possessed a female body.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Lantern7

[mrspidey]

On 3/10/2021 at 3:12 AM, bettername2come said:

 Didn't think Danielle would be back from maternity leave, but I guess she's had almost a year. She looked good. 

When you decide to take a break but instead the entire world does...

Edited March 11, 2021 by mrspidey

[Trini]

12 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

The only reason Barry even needs a team at all is because the writers keep making him into a colossal moron of a screw up who can't seem to do jack as a superhero unless he has "the team" around to actually tell him how to superhero in nearly any given situation. It was made clear from the word jump when Barry started showing the speed thinking that he was quickly rendering the entire Team redundant. That's why they got rid of his speed thinking so quickly and made it turn him bad rather than just making him super smart, if Barry was smart and effective Team Flash wouldn't actually have a reason to exist.

Exactly.
 

1 hour ago, mrspidey said:

On 3/9/2021 at 9:12 PM, bettername2come said:

 Didn't think Danielle would be back from maternity leave, but I guess she's had almost a year. She looked good. 

When you decide to take a break but instead the entire world does...

So I wonder what would have been different if Panabaker hadn't been in this episode? (as originally planned) Was it going to be Ralph, or Cisco that would have taken the blast from Eva? There probably wasn't going to be that VFX Flash/Frost fight.

[Smugcake]

17 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

The only reason Barry even needs a team at all is because the writers keep making him into a colossal moron of a screw up who can't seem to do jack as a superhero unless he has "the team" around to actually tell him how to superhero in nearly any given situation.

The real reason Barry needs a team-- why all of the titular superheroes on the CW have teams-- is because Grant can't film 12 hours a day, 8 days per episode, 20-ish episodes a season. 

On 3/10/2021 at 7:27 AM, Trini said:

On a different note, at least Barry screwing over everyone and everything for Iris is consistent! 

In most shows/movies, screwing over everyone and everything for the sake of one person is what villains do. Heroes are all about the greater good and the needs of the many. So yeah, Barry's selfishness is consistent!

Edited March 11, 2021 by Smugcake

[Maverick]

 I can't believe y'all fell for that Wells is gone for ever shit.

 Did Patrick S. has to quarantine for 2 weeks to film that?  I hope there's more of him.

[immortalfrieza]

12 hours ago, Smugcake said:

The real reason Barry needs a team-- why all of the titular superheroes on the CW have teams-- is because Grant can't film 12 hours a day, 8 days per episode, 20-ish episodes a season.

It's not that The Flash doesn't need a cast to bounce off of and to do storylines with. Batman for instance typically has Robin, Alfred, Commisioner Gordon, Batgirl... but it's usually actually Batman who figures out how to and then actually saves the day without any real assistance from anyone else, maybe occasionally getting saved by the others. If a Batman show were to do things like this show does Robin would save Batman every week, possibly multiple times until Alfred tells Batman how to actually beat the villain, then he finally beats the villain. Barry could still have a cast and still be effective. Hell, he could still have Cisco and Caitlyn tell him how to beat a villain... every once in a blue moon. The fact that Barry is chronically incapable of succeeding at anything without Team Flash is the problem.

[Trini]

Re-watch thoughts:

The shallow: Even if I didn't know about Grant's post about it, I could tell that he gained some weight. He does look a bit different. And Carlos' hair is noticeably longer too. They should change up his hair occasionally.Or at least not have it looking so flat.

In the Room of Dead Heroes, there were memorabilia for Firestorm, Green Arrow, Captain Cold, XS, Jesse Quick, and a couple others that weren't clearly visible. But one might have been Cynthia's tagging gun(?), I think.

Cecile's talk with Allegra may be the first acknowledgement in dialog that she is Black, although it is indirect. I think it's a first for any Black character on the show.

I don't know what I'm supposed to feel about Allegra and Nash because they wrote that relationship so weirdly.

Everyone wants to see Barry be smart and use his speed in creative ways; they better continue some of this going forward. He can be a genius AND have a heart too.

There's a new person in the writer's room this season: Christina M. Walker.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Trini

[adora721]

On 3/11/2021 at 3:30 PM, Smugcake said:

In most shows/movies, screwing over everyone and everything for the sake of one person is what villains do. Heroes are all about the greater good and the needs of the many. So yeah, Barry's selfishness is consistent!

This is why Killer Frost and Cait are sociopaths and villains no matter what retcon they keep doing. Neither has yet expressed empathy for all the friends they tried to murder or for helping to murder HR. They have yet to apologize to all these people either. She and Cait are both selfish to the extreme, and no one calls them out on it. Anything bad Barry does, at least he feels and shows guilt for it and has also paid the price for it, but nothing for Cait or Killer Frost.  I'll take Barry's genuine good heart, mistakes and all, over the sociopath/narcissist combo of Cait/KF any day. They rarely show remorse, never take responsibility, & are never held accountable to a moral or legal standard.

ETA: And Cisco Ramon is Cait/KF's primary enabler. Cisco will take Barry to task  anytime Barry steps out of line, like he did w/Flashpoint, the meta cure, and in this episode with the ASF and being emotionless. Cisco will never let Barry get away with anything. But Cisco has remained silent when Cait nearly got Cynthia murdered, silent when KF trashed Kamilla's work, and silent when KF tried to murder him and the rest of the team. That's not how genuine friendship works.

Edited March 14, 2021 by adora721

[Smugcake]

On 3/12/2021 at 6:32 AM, immortalfrieza said:

It's not that The Flash doesn't need a cast to bounce off of and to do storylines with. Batman for instance typically has Robin, Alfred, Commisioner Gordon, Batgirl... but it's usually actually Batman who figures out how to and then actually saves the day without any real assistance from anyone else, maybe occasionally getting saved by the others. If a Batman show were to do things like this show does Robin would save Batman every week, possibly multiple times until Alfred tells Batman how to actually beat the villain, then he finally beats the villain. Barry could still have a cast and still be effective. Hell, he could still have Cisco and Caitlyn tell him how to beat a villain... every once in a blue moon. The fact that Barry is chronically incapable of succeeding at anything without Team Flash is the problem.

Would it be great if Barry didn't cry and need a pep talk every other episode and have to be told "Run Barry run" 10x a season? Sure! But again, from a practical standpoint, the other regulars on the cast aren't paid to stand in the background to give helpful suggestions "every once in a blue moon". They're either going to be tied to the main storyline-- helping Barry fight the villain of the week-- or they're going to have a side story. Except every time anyone besides Barry (and Iris) has their own character arc or side story, there are complaints about it being boring and pointless. So they're hated for helping Barry, and they're hated when they're on their own.

I know the ideal version of the show is the one where the only regulars are Grant and Candice and Barry catches the bad guy all by himself in 15 minutes with his superspeed and super smarts and the rest of the episode is about Iris running the newspaper and 

Spoiler

Westallen raising their twins

and everyone else is reduced to an occasional guest appearance, but... it's not the kind of show. Never was, never will be 

[BeautifulFlower]

On 3/12/2021 at 9:08 PM, Smugcake said:

Would it be great if Barry didn't cry and need a pep talk every other episode and have to be told "Run Barry run" 10x a season? Sure! But again, from a practical standpoint, the other regulars on the cast aren't paid to stand in the background to give helpful suggestions "every once in a blue moon". They're either going to be tied to the main storyline-- helping Barry fight the villain of the week-- or they're going to have a side story. Except every time anyone besides Barry (and Iris) has their own character arc or side story, there are complaints about it being boring and pointless. So they're hated for helping Barry, and they're hated when they're on their own.

I know the ideal version of the show is the one where the only regulars are Grant and Candice and Barry catches the bad guy all by himself in 15 minutes with his superspeed and super smarts and the rest of the episode is about Iris running the newspaper and 

Spoiler

Westallen raising their twins

and everyone else is reduced to an occasional guest appearance, but... it's not the kind of show. Never was, never will be 

There are complaints because it is obvious the writers struggle to give Cisco and Caitlin their own plots. From the beginning, they have exist to only be plot devices. There roles are only to be there to help make Barry look dumb. There's not much you can do with them. This is due to these characters not being from The Flash comics. That was the shows BIGGEST mistake. We all know the show cannot be just Barry and Iris. I do agree he needs a supporting cast. However, The Flash comics have PLENTY of characters they could've used. There was no reason to use people who are not from the specific comic.

[cambridgeguy]

On 3/12/2021 at 9:08 PM, Smugcake said:

I know the ideal version of the show is the one where the only regulars are Grant and Candice and Barry catches the bad guy all by himself in 15 minutes with his superspeed and super smarts and the rest of the episode is about Iris running the newspaper and 

Spoiler

Westallen raising their twins

and everyone else is reduced to an occasional guest appearance, but... it's not the kind of show. Never was, never will be 

I believe that show is called Superman and Lois. 

[Starry]

On 3/12/2021 at 10:36 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

There are complaints because it is obvious the writers struggle to give Cisco and Caitlin their own plots. From the beginning, they have exist to only be plot devices. There roles are only to be there to help make Barry look dumb. There's not much you can do with them. This is due to

Spoiler

these characters not being from The Flash comics. That was the shows BIGGEST mistake. We all know the show cannot be just Barry and Iris. I do agree he needs a supporting cast. However, The Flash comics have PLENTY of characters they could've used. There was no reason to use people who are not from the specific comic.

 

I don't care that

Spoiler

they aren't from the comics.

I care that the Team Flash people are all carbon copies of one another and thus rend the lead and each other pointless and redundant. Every show needs a supporting cast but the secondary characters have to bring something unique to the table. And even if they want more science people, can they please please remember what every person specializes in so they don't constantly step on each other's toes? Because I don't think I am unreasonable for not wanting a show where every team member is an engineer, a biologist, a genetist, a MD, an IT genius and a Speed Force expert at the same time.

 

On 3/12/2021 at 9:08 PM, Smugcake said:

Would it be great if Barry didn't cry and need a pep talk every other episode and have to be told "Run Barry run" 10x a season? Sure! But again, from a practical standpoint, the other regulars on the cast aren't paid to stand in the background to give helpful suggestions "every once in a blue moon". They're either going to be tied to the main storyline-- helping Barry fight the villain of the week-- or they're going to have a side story. Except every time anyone besides Barry (and Iris) has their own character arc or side story, there are complaints about it being boring and pointless. So they're hated for helping Barry, and they're hated when they're on their own.

This board doesn't see every character that way. I know that the Cisco episode was popular last year and people have always liked Joe. I personally enjoyed the Ralph and Sue arc too. But Killer Caitlin Frost has been a mess for a while now and her entire story is based on a series of retcons. The Wells shtick is played out and his character is a huge deus ex machina. Is it bad for fans to want the side stories to make sense and be compelling?

 

On 3/12/2021 at 9:08 PM, Smugcake said:

I know the ideal version of the show is the one where the only regulars are Grant and Candice and Barry catches the bad guy all by himself in 15 minutes with his superspeed and super smarts and the rest of the episode is about Iris running the newspaper and 

Spoiler

Westallen raising their twins

and everyone else is reduced to an occasional guest appearance, but... it's not the kind of show. Never was, never will be 

We are aware of that. We also know that the team formula and the supporting cast aren't used to nerf the protagonist and sideline the leading lady and main couple on other team based shows so why does this one have to be the exception? Iris is barely shown running her newspaper and WestAllen have spent the entire season apart and even before that all they got was interrupted dates, interrupted kisses, an interrupted wedding and the team being involved in their business. It's great that they are a solid couple and she's Barry's motivation but even then that gets twisted into "Barry prioritizing Iris makes him a villain".

It's interesting that this board gets criticized for wanting the show to be all about WestAllen when I haven't seen anyone ask for that. In other places people are throwing real hissy fits that Flash isn't all about Barry, Cisco, Caitlin and Wells fighting villains and having bro talks while everyone else makes guest appearances and Iris stays in the kitchen and only contributes through off screen journalism.

[BeautifulFlower]

On 3/13/2021 at 11:09 AM, Starry said:

I don't care that

Spoiler

they aren't from the comics.

I care that the Team Flash people are all carbon copies of one another and thus rend the lead and each other pointless and redundant. Every show needs a supporting cast but the secondary characters have to bring something unique to the table. And even if they want more science people, can they please please remember what every person specializes in so they don't constantly step on each other's toes? Because I don't think I am unreasonable for not wanting a show where every team member is an engineer, a biologist, a genetist, a MD, an IT genius and a Speed Force expert at the same time.

 

This board doesn't see every character that way. I know that the Cisco episode was popular last year and people have always liked Joe. I personally enjoyed the Ralph and Sue arc too. But Killer Caitlin Frost has been a mess for a while now and her entire story is based on a series of retcons. The Wells shtick is played out and his character is a huge deus ex machina. Is it bad for fans to want the side stories to make sense and be compelling?

 

We are aware of that. We also know that the team formula and the supporting cast aren't used to nerf the protagonist and sideline the leading lady and main couple on other team based shows so why does this one have to be the exception? Iris is barely shown running her newspaper and WestAllen have spent the entire season apart and even before that all they got was interrupted dates, interrupted kisses, an interrupted wedding and the team being involved in their business. It's great that they are a solid couple and she's Barry's motivation but even then that gets twisted into "Barry prioritizing Iris makes him a villain".

It's interesting that this board gets criticized for wanting the show to be all about WestAllen when I haven't seen anyone ask for that. In other places people are throwing real hissy fits that Flash isn't all about Barry, Cisco, Caitlin and Wells fighting villains and having bro talks while everyone else makes guest appearances and Iris stays in the kitchen and only contributes through off screen journalism.

I agree with everything. This is why I said

Spoiler

the show should've used supporting characters from the actual Flash comics.

They wouldn't be carbon copies each other.  At least, they wouldn't in my opinion. Let's say the show was just Barry, iris, Joe, Wally (comes later), and Linda. We could actually see Barry at his job. Iris and Linda doing some journalism that can tie into the main plot. What I'm seeing on Superman and Lois is what I want to see on The Flash. I really love how they're giving Lois a proper reporter arc. I want that. We should've had that. However, somebody decided to go with this team based thing. and I just want to know what were they thinking? The Flash is a powerful superhero and you decide to give a team?

I wholeheartedly agree with the team formula hindering Barry and Iris. I don't know if it was here or somewhere else, but they gave some things from the comics to the team. We all know how smart Barry is in the comics. Iris is a great investigator in the comics as well. However, the show can't showcase these things. Why? Because of the team and Star Labs. Seriously, that place does EVERYTHING. They really made me go "what's the point of Barry and Iris investigating something? Star Labs seems to have everything they need to investigate." I'm sick of it and this formula.

[Trini]

We've got a group of family and friends that love and support one another with words of encouragement (because not everything can be an action scene); it's a staple of the show, but there are still complaints about "pep talks" after seven seasons. lol
 

Quote

... But again, from a practical standpoint, the other regulars on the cast aren't paid to stand in the background to give helpful suggestions "every once in a blue moon". They're either going to be tied to the main storyline-- helping Barry fight the villain of the week-- or they're going to have a side story. ...

There have been so many episodes with regulars as background and only giving helpful suggestions already, so yes, they do get paid for that.

I don't think anyone is arguing against having a supporting cast, but - bringing it back to the topic - this episode clearly demonstrated that Barry doesn't need the Team if the show let him have the powers that he's already supposed to have.

There are definitely a couple of people who I think aren't necessary at all and could be dropped immediately, but I think the show has mostly outgrown the 'Team Flash' format and they could use the supporting cast in better, more effective ways. STAR Labs can stay, but it doesn't need to be the hub of every plot. They could do more with CCPD and Barry as a CSI. More of Iris and what's going on in Central City. Show more of Barry & Iris' family life.
 

10 hours ago, Starry said:

... It's great that they are a solid couple and she's Barry's motivation but even then that gets twisted into "Barry prioritizing Iris makes him a villain".

I'm not mad at all that Barry has his priorities straight! But yeah, they finally get Iris out, but in the worst way possible. If Barry was his normal self of course they'd find a way to get everyone out. I also didn't like that they kind of framed it as 'being too smart/logical makes you a villain' -- because you know that's going to be the reason we never see genius Barry again.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Trini

[immortalfrieza]

3 minutes ago, Trini said:

There are definitely a couple of people who I think aren't necessary at all and could be dropped immediately, but I think the show has mostly outgrown the 'Team Flash' format and they could use the supporting cast in better, more effective ways. STAR Labs can stay, but it doesn't need to be the hub of every plot. They could do more with CCPD and Barry as a CSI. More of Iris and the what's going on in Central City. Show more of Barry & Iris' family life.

Not to mention they could have storylines where Iris, Joe, and everybody in STAR Labs works together to take down some villains every so often with Barry having minimal if any involvement probably because he's dealing with some bigger supervillains at the time. Not only is Barry only useful when Team Flash is around to tell him how to superhero, but Team Flash is only useful when Barry need someone to tell him how to superhero. That's why almost the entirety of Team Flash had superpowers at one point but barely used them and then just got their butts royally kicked in the rare occasions when they did whenever Barry wasn't around. The rest of the cast has no other purpose but to prop up Barry in some way. Why else would they be utterly incapable of stopping Barry now that he went full supervillain?

[phoenics]

Agree about the Team Flash dynamic.  That format has long outlived its usefulness.  If the show was smart - it would have minor villains for the supporting cast to pursue while Barry is dealing with the larger villain and then the story could collide - all in the same episode.  Team Flash infantilizes Barry and I'm so bummed we won't get smart Barry again because they'd tied it to "he loses his emotions".

Also feel robbed of a WestAllen reunion - after all this time we won't get a real hug or kiss after being separated for months?  Epic fail and so so unrealistic.  This show fails spectacularly at these moments continually and it's exhausting. Contrast that to Hacy on Charmed, where the show is putting focus on their inevitable reunion (due to a magical reason keeping them from being able to touch one another right now) so you KNOW the show plans to do an epic payoff for all of the distance right now.

But this show?  Nope.  We get smart Barry with no emotion and their reunion will likely be completely screwed up or forgotten about. What a waste of CP and GG's chemistry.

I am concerned about Iris though - is she going to need that chamber thingee that Eva uses to keep herself sane in the real world (I guess that was a small clue she wasn't the real Eva)?

I hope they save Kamilla and Singh, though I fear they won't.  One or both I fear is doomed.

With Nash gone - did they also drop that Iris from the future hint they gave early on in the season?  Remember how his little detector thingee went off around Iris?

[Starry]

19 hours ago, Trini said:

There are definitely a couple of people who I think aren't necessary at all and could be dropped immediately, but I think the show has mostly outgrown the 'Team Flash' format and they could use the supporting cast in better, more effective ways. STAR Labs can stay, but it doesn't need to be the hub of every plot. They could do more with CCPD and Barry as a CSI. More of Iris and what's going on in Central City. Show more of Barry & Iris' family life.

But that would make the show "all about" Iris and WestAllen and we can't have that  🙄

 

19 hours ago, Trini said:

I'm not mad at all that Barry has his priorities straight! But yeah, they finally get Iris out, but in the worst way possible. If Barry was his normal self of course they'd find a way to get everyone out. I also didn't like that they kind of framed it as 'being too smart/logical makes you a villain' -- because you know that's going to be the reason we never see genius Barry again.

I think it made sense how they approached it in this episode in the sense that Barry didn't throw innocent people under the bus to save Iris "because he loves her too much". He was operating on logic and not emotions. But in the past he was willing to do things like kill Grodd and trade Carver's life to get Iris back and the show framed it as villainous acts he would never recover from. That's nonsense. Iris' life is worth more than the lives of a murderous animal and a psychotic criminal. Frost had innocent HR killed for her personal gain and she's doing just fine with the writers and the fandom but prioritizing Iris makes Barry selfish?  🙄

I agree that they villainized genius Barry to justify his incompetence for the rest of the season.