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S08.E11: Three's A Party


renatae
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2 hours ago, Kath94 said:

I got Dear Abby's "What Every Young Girl Needs to Know" or something like that, along with informational pamphlets from Modess & Kotex, I think. 

In the early 60’s, our pamphlet was called “Growing Up and Liking It”, as if we had no choice 

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15 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:
hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

Oh, my mother gave me a book, too, back in 1973 (because I'm older than dirt).  I was 12.  

It was called "Memoirs of an Ex Prom Queen."  She had briefly worked at a drug store that would occasionally tear off the covers of books that didn't sell and put them in a bin for the employees to take for free.  She thought it sounded like something I would enjoy reading.

 

Since I’m older than dust,I remember reading that book as a young adult

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8 hours ago, hisbunkie said:

Since I’m older than dust,I remember reading that book as a young adult

Apparently it was re-released in 2019 and Vanity Fair describes it as "the groundbreaking feminist novel that brought abortion, sexual harassment, and rape to the best-seller list—and has been reissued in a brand-new paperback edition."

My mother would be aghast if she were alive.  

I knew I should have dug that book out of the trash 😂

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20 hours ago, magemaud said:

In the early 60’s, our pamphlet was called “Growing Up and Liking It”, as if we had no choice 

Oh god, I remember that! My mother gave me a kit from Kotex called "Very Personally Yours". It was a big box with all the supplies and a little booklet. She'd obviously bought it in advance against the day it would be needed. 

I read "Memoirs of an Ex-Prom Queen" too! And so did my mother! If I recall it was supposed to be funny. The 70's were a different time. I mean, remember "Fear of Flying"? 

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Tarzel: I normally don’t pay attention to them because they’re so boring that they’re creating their own drama in order to stay relevant on the show, but has anyone else noticed that Hazel lights up when she talks about women in a way she never has when talking about Tarik? She wants another woman, she just doesn’t want Tarik to have another one so she can get her green card.

 

Cougar Stephanie and Ryan: I know stealthing is disgusting and unacceptable and Stephanie was right to react the way she did, but I still can’t stand her. When things aren’t going her way with Ryan, she’s right on his cousin Harris. 

This woman is desperate and has no self respect. She's trying to play like she's a young chick. She's an old goat. She needs a story for more airtime.

 

Mike and Natalie: At this point I’m getting sick of them. Mike clearly has no intention of marrying Natalie, and he constantly punishes her. Natalie is just a nasty manipulative person and constantly puts him down. If they get married, they probably won’t last very long. 

 

Jovi and Yara: Jovi was definitely wrong, and is a jerk! He definitely needs to grow up, and quick before she decides to go back, I wouldn’t blame her if he doesn’t shape up. I mean, when do we get to see him sober? 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Hotel Snarker said:

I mean, when do we get to see him sober? 

 

Apparently Jovi can’t drink on the job so he must remain sober for a month at a time. We only see “off duty Jovi” who must start drinking on the flight home to NoLa and continues to do so throughout his time off. 

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2 hours ago, magemaud said:

Apparently Jovi can’t drink on the job so he must remain sober for a month at a time. We only see “off duty Jovi” who must start drinking on the flight home to NoLa and continues to do so throughout his time off. 

I don't get the need to drink constantly. I am a social drinker, meaning I will have a glass of wine once a week or so to relax at a restaurant or a shot of vodka if I go out, maybe twice a month max, just for a rush or buzz, but also TBH because I don't want to be the only one not partaking and I drink responsibly. I could easily go the rest of my life without it and not care.  I feel sad for people who seem to be addicted to the need for alcohol. Coffee, on the other hand, I could barely last a day without. Thank goodness caffeine addiction doesn't carry the stigma or cognitive impairment as alcohol. 

Edited by Lily247
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I didn't watch their initial season, were Tarik and Hazel always this boring?  because their segments are a one way ticket to snoozetown.  

I kinda love Yara, and I enjoy when this show gives me a surprise protagonist.  I shouldn't like her at all, but I think she is pretty down to earth, she is smart, and she knows her worth.  I think she should have been way more careful with the birth control, but she is such a strong personality.  I loved when she said "I'm beautiful and smart, I don't deserve this"  It didn't feel arrogant, it just felt like she knew her worth and wasn't a puddle of insecurity like rebecca and stephanie.  She also seems competent, unlike Julia.  I also love the dramatic fashions, its so entertainingly Eurotrash.  She looks exactly how darcy WANTS to look when she drapes a coat over her shoulders.  

I'm also still confused as to how and why stephanie didn't see a forlorn looking, discarded glow in the dark condom in a dark room. Why did she buy glow in the dark condoms if she didn't want to see his ding a ling glow in the dark?

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Whoever said that Mike needs someone more flannel shirted, that is SPOT ON. Mike and Natalie are so I'll suited, it's not even a joke. I genuinely don't think he's into women like Natalie, who like to wear makeup, heels, spend a significant amount of time on their hair, etc. I truly think he would prefer a woodsy, country woman who doesn't wear makeup, likes to drink beer, likes to hunt maybe, etc. Mike is a backwoods guy and I don't think they would want a fancy woman. He looks like he never, ever dresses up. If Natalie's goal was to get married ASAP, she could've looked into mailing herself out to potential grooms in Turkey, Greece, or somewhere round that region. 

Edited by Lily247
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54 minutes ago, Lily247 said:

Whoever said that Mike needs someone more flannel shirted, that is SPOT ON. Mike and Natalie are so I'll suited, it's not even a joke. I genuinely don't think he's into women like Natalie, who like to wear makeup, heels, spend a significant amount of time on their hair, etc. I truly think he would prefer a woodsy, country woman who doesn't wear makeup, likes to drink beer, likes to hunt maybe, etc. Mike is a backwoods guy and I don't think they would want a fancy woman. He looks like he never, ever dresses up. If Natalie's goal was to get married ASAP, she could've looked into mailing herself out to potential grooms in Turkey, Greece, or somewhere round that region. 

I think Mike likes the look, he just doesn't like the high maintenance that comes along with it.   He doesn't like feeling low key shamed for not eating a carrot and using butter on his fish.  He wants pancakes.  

At the end of the day, I think Mike has a better chance of finding someone more his speed.  I think Natalie will have a rough go of it.  Does anyone remember why she broke up with her ex-husband?

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I know Natalie keeps calling Mike a liar and a cheater. Did she call the bride-to-be/best friend the same things when they spoke on the phone?  Didn’t the other woman talk to Natalie?  Did Natalie just say “thank you” and hang up?

Edited by Colfrmb
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Stephanie - I am 52 so I am not going to pick on her age. But the way she dresses and acts; yow; she is hella thirsty. All that desperate and crazy is not a good look.

Jovi - Yes you are an adult and can drink adult beverages. This being said slow down dude and give your liver a fighting chance.

Mike and Natalie - They seem so awful together, but I also wouldn't wish the on other singles.

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1 minute ago, Colfrmb said:

I know Natalie keeps calling Mike a liar and a cheater. Did he call the bride-to-be/best friend the same things when they spoke on the phone?  Didn’t the other woman talk to Natalie?  Did Natalie just say “thank you” and hang up?

She and Natalie spoke?

No tea, no shade, but if I were Sarah I wouldn't want anything to do with Natalie.  

Most especially if she was wrongfully dragging my name through the mud and making my friends and family think I cheated on my fiance the night before the wedding and Natalie was just doing that because she is crazy and wanted to be the victim.  

 

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33 minutes ago, Colfrmb said:

I know Natalie keeps calling Mike a liar and a cheater. Did she call the bride-to-be/best friend the same things when they spoke on the phone?  Didn’t the other woman talk to Natalie?  Did Natalie just say “thank you” and hang up?

Natalie cannot believe that Mike and Sarah could spend a night together in the same house and not have sex, because in Russia there is not really a concept of platonic relationships between (young) men and (young) women. Gender differences are more drawn out, a man will typically treat a woman his age like a woman and not like a buddy. So I understand where she is coming from with her perspective about Mike possibly sleeping with a friend when she spent the night at his house. Here in the US, it is not uncommon to find platonic man-woman buddies. 

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9 hours ago, RealReality said:

 

 

I'm also still confused as to how and why stephanie didn't see a forlorn looking, discarded glow in the dark condom in a dark room. 

She was very impaired, alcohol plus I feel like some prescription drugs she may be on. Another reason the stealting is worse.  Consent is a real thing.

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9 hours ago, Lily247 said:

If Natalie's goal was to get married ASAP, she could've looked into mailing herself out to potential grooms in Turkey, Greece, or somewhere round that region. 

See Page 5 of their Couples thread.  

Natalie is desperate to become a mother and thinks that Mike's her very last shot.  As soon as she was introduced in her first season, she proposed to Mike that he impregnate her on his trip to Kiev.  That trip was unplanned; he was going to investigate and resolve whatever administrative snafu with her visa application.  He told her that it wouldn't be a good idea and he wanted the full father-to-be experience.  When he arrived, Natalie's mother focused all her conversations with Mike on his and Natalie's starting a family, the joy of parenthood and her yearning to be a grandmother.

Natalie is so desperate to become a mother that she will perpetuate the gene pool of Mike, a fat, dumb, uncultured, unhealthy, drunk, carnivorous, alien-believing slob with an uncle who's his cousin.

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It took me a few days to catch up on my hate watching of Mike and Natalie.

Dude. I know the whole storyline for you is about "crazy, unreasonable Natalie" but you are a Class A Fuck. She's what, halfway through the 90 days and you tell her that you're not engaged, the love is gone, and you're not ready to marry her any time soon. Neither of you are going to morph into the partners you want or expect within the next 45 days so cut your losses and move on. Mike, if you were any kind of decent guy and not a gaslighting prick you'd get Natalie a plane ticket so she could go someplace fun and exciting for the rest of her visit instead of languishing in Sequim. 

Natalie, I'd say you blew it when you gave him back the ring and with your incessant judgements but he's not the guy for you. Move on. 

Edited by Lambie
blew "it" is different than "blew" -- which would be letting loose according to Mike
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1 hour ago, Lambie said:

It took me a few days to catch up on my hate watching of Mike and Natalie.

Dude. I know the whole storyline for you is about "crazy, unreasonable Natalie" but you are a Class A Fuck. She's what, halfway through the 90 days and you tell her that you're not engaged, the love is gone, and you're not ready to marry her any time soon. Neither of you are going to morph into the partners you want or expect within the next 45 days so cut your losses and move on. Mike, if you were any kind of decent guy and not a gaslighting prick you'd get Natalie a plane ticket so she could go someplace fun and exciting for the rest of her visit instead of languishing in Sequim. 

Natalie, I'd say you blew it when you gave him back the ring and with your incessant judgements but he's not the guy for you. Move on. 

I may be mistaken, but I got the impression that Natalie called him "out of the blue" to say that her Visa came through, and that she had a short time to fly to the U.S. to start the 90 days.  I'd like to think that Mike thought they were over, but didn't think to cancel the K1 Visa application, so he was taken by surprise when Natalie called him with the "good" news.  I think he agreed to have her come to the U.S. just for the TV show & for the Sharp money, but he was already done with the relationship.

18 hours ago, Pepper Mostly said:

Oh god, I remember that! My mother gave me a kit from Kotex called "Very Personally Yours"

That was one of the "books" I got from my mother.  You just sparked a memory.  There was, I think, a diagonal drawn ribbon & a bow on the cover.  Gah!

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15 hours ago, RealReality said:

I didn't watch their initial season, were Tarik and Hazel always this boring? 

Yes.  There was a scene where they were waist high (or so) in water and he was holding her, telling her he loves her, and she looked sad and downcast.  He even said (and I am paraphrasing, it was a while ago) "Are you happy?  Do you love me?" and she just was......blank.

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8 hours ago, Alonzo Mosely FBI said:

She was very impaired, alcohol plus I feel like some prescription drugs she may be on. Another reason the stealting is worse.  Consent is a real thing.

Consent is an incredibly real thing.  I'd be mad as hell, but I assumed it was at least part of the reason she bought glow in the dark condoms.  In my experience, you don't see them in the sexual health aisle at the local Target, you have to go someplace to get those.  Right?

2 hours ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

Yes.  There was a scene where they were waist high (or so) in water and he was holding her, telling her he loves her, and she looked sad and downcast.  He even said (and I am paraphrasing, it was a while ago) "Are you happy?  Do you love me?" and she just was......blank.

Allright, I guess it makes sense that they are boring now if they were always boring.  I think they are the weak link this season in terms of bringing entertaining drama.  

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3 hours ago, Kath94 said:

I may be mistaken, but I got the impression that Natalie called him "out of the blue" to say that her Visa came through, and that she had a short time to fly to the U.S. to start the 90 days.  I'd like to think that Mike thought they were over, but didn't think to cancel the K1 Visa application, so he was taken by surprise when Natalie called him with the "good" news.  I think he agreed to have her come to the U.S. just for the TV show & for the Sharp money, but he was already done with the relationship.

Oh thats interesting!  I wonder if Natalie was trying to do some sort of image rehab because she came off pretty poorly in their first season.  

As for Mike, I get why people don't like him.  I also think that he is absolutely done with the relationship at this point.  But, I don't think he was fully closed off when she got there.  Everytime they get to fighting, he always seems to make statements designed to get her to contradict him so that he can see that she likes him.  I think its a very desperate move, but to me, it shows that he wasn't always completely sealed off. 

Like last time when he said "you don't even like me" and then he just kinda looked at her for some sort of counter response.  I mean, he also had the stupid ass bluetooth in his ear, so maybe he was on a call or something.  But to me, it seems that he wants her approval or to even know she likes him. 

But, she doesn't like him and she never really did.  And maybe he never really liked her either.  

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5 hours ago, Lambie said:

you gave him back the ring and with your incessant judgements but he's not the guy for you. Move on. 

I think giving back the ring and how she gave it back probably closed the door about 85% for Mike.  Her current behavior has pushed the door all the way closed.  And I don't think its just the judgment, but its the fact that she is pretty clear that she just wants the ring back.  She is only ever acting reasonably to get the ring back.  I don't know how it must feel to know that someone is only going to be with you to get a ring and some sperm.  Its not a problem, I guess that she feels that way, its just so transparent.

I don't get as mad at Mike, but after this season, I really don't have any interest in seeing either of them again.  Maybe Natalie can be on that new 90DF dating show that I can't access because its only on Discovery +

 

16 hours ago, Lily247 said:

Natalie cannot believe that Mike and Sarah could spend a night together in the same house and not have sex, because in Russia there is not really a concept of platonic relationships between (young) men and (young) women. Gender differences are more drawn out, a man will typically treat a woman his age like a woman and not like a buddy. So I understand where she is coming from with her perspective about Mike possibly sleeping with a friend when she spent the night at his house. Here in the US, it is not uncommon to find platonic man-woman buddies. 

I cannot remember their names, but there was a Russian girl who was with that guy who was abusive and rocked a Ceasar cut.  I really can't remember their names.  She was young but had a very interesting sense of style.  Anyways, that girl had some guy who was just her friend and I think they went camping?

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I cannot remember their names, but there was a Russian girl who was with that guy who was abusive and rocked a Ceasar cut.  I really can't remember their names.  She was young but had a very interesting sense of style.  Anyways, that girl had some guy who was just her friend and I think they went camping?

Are you thinking of Geoffrey (from TN) and Varya? If so, that guy was actually HIS friend (forget how they knew each other) and since he was over there in Siberia, Geoff went to see him and took her along.....

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28 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I cannot remember their names, but there was a Russian girl who was with that guy who was abusive and rocked a Ceasar cut.  I really can't remember their names.  She was young but had a very interesting sense of style.  Anyways, that girl had some guy who was just her friend and I think they went camping?

Geoffry and Varya?  Oh my....Geoffrey was SO unlikable, and that is really saying something.

 

40 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Allright, I guess it makes sense that they are boring now if they were always boring.  I think they are the weak link this season in terms of bringing entertaining drama.

The best partner Tarik had on this show was his brother, and apparently they are not speaking.  Too bad for a lot of reasons.  I agree, no one wants to see them shop for a girlfriend.   Like who cares. 

 

17 hours ago, Texasmom1970 said:

Stephanie - I am 52 so I am not going to pick on her age. But the way she dresses and acts; yow; she is hella thirsty. All that desperate and crazy is not a good look.

Jovi - Yes you are an adult and can drink adult beverages. This being said slow down dude and give your liver a fighting chance.

Mike and Natalie - They seem so awful together, but I also wouldn't wish the on other singles.

I agree on all three points.  Stephanie reminds me of college friends who would get all nutty over a guy.  I am 56 and can't imagine acting this way, ever.  Then again I am not heading to Belize to shop for a boyfriend, remind him how much money I have spent on him all the time either.

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2 hours ago, RealReality said:

But, [Natalie] doesn't like [Mike] and she never really did.  And maybe he never really liked her either.  

They both may perceive themselves as damaged goods because of their past marriages.  But they stay together out of desperation or resignation.  However, at least one of them should be able to articulate and attempt to address their greatest struggles.  Instead, they just broadly attack and insult each other.

I'd almost want to see Yara or possibly Julia speak to Natalie for a moment of truth on the season tell-nothing - just like Alla and Anfisa.  I wouldn't buy Discovery+ for it.)

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On 2/22/2021 at 3:45 PM, christmaslights said:

is zied allowed to drive legally here? what about insurance.  

If he has an international driver's license and Rebecca's insurance allows multiple drivers he should be good to go. 

I always wonder why more foreign partners aren't shown driving (if they were able to drive in their home country) but I think Sharp likes the narrative of the foreigner being alone and isolated and unable to navigate the States without the American holding their hand every step of the way. 

https://www.usa.gov/visitors-driving 

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5 hours ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

Geoffry and Varya?  Oh my....Geoffrey was SO unlikable, and that is really saying something.

 

The best partner Tarik had on this show was his brother, and apparently they are not speaking.  Too bad for a lot of reasons.  I agree, no one wants to see them shop for a girlfriend.   Like who cares. 

 

I agree on all three points.  Stephanie reminds me of college friends who would get all nutty over a guy.  I am 56 and can't imagine acting this way, ever.  Then again I am not heading to Belize to shop for a boyfriend, remind him how much money I have spent on him all the time either.

If I may speak on behalf of the Belizean board of tourism for a second.  If you ever were to shop for a man in Belize, you could do much, much, much, much, much, much, much better than Ryan.  Like, a lot better.  And not to put too fine a point on it, you may have your pick of shades, the Mennonites are gingers, you have the descendants of the Mayans, you have milk chocolate, dark chocolate and everything in between.  No matter what shade or build of man you'd like to purchase for watches and shoes, you could find much better looking than Ryan.  My dad keeps calling him a "country bumpkin"

Yes! Geoffrey and Varya.  I thought she had a male friend who was really just a friend and they went camping?

Edited by RealReality
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On 2/24/2021 at 10:31 PM, RealReality said:

Why did she buy glow in the dark condoms if she didn't want to see his ding a ling glow in the dark?

I think she wanted a saber light show and only half expected to actually "use" the condom because she is stupid.

Once again I am amazed that a man would have sex with a woman who he does not like and is not attracted to. 

I know the sex was not for the trinkets because she whipped those things out before they had sex, if Stephanie wanted to have the upper hand she would have had sex then threw him a trinket afterwards after each time, she is a rube and novice at how to buy a man.

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1 hour ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I know the sex was not for the trinkets because she whipped those things out before they had sex, if Stephanie wanted to have the upper hand she would have had sex then threw him a trinket afterwards after each time, she is a rube and novice at how to buy a man.

And the size of the trinket would reflect the quality of the sex.  If he wanted the undies, he'd do a quickie.  If he wanted another watch . . . well, you get the picture.

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A lot of people have negative things to say about Mike and I agree with a lot of them. But Natalie comes up with a whole laundry list of specific issues that she has with Mike which apparently never were different.  I don’t think he ever represented himself as a vegan or as a Christian or as a city guy. And over and over again in moments of exasperation he will ask her what he can do differently other than those things, and her never wavering response is “give me the ring back.”  Knowing how she loves to test him and badger him in anyway that she can, all roads lead to the ring.  I’m telling you the one trick we haven’t seen her use yet but I’m sure she knows about it is the accidental pregnancy.  ( and she’s using the cheating thing a lot because she knows there is no way he can prove he’s not a cheater and he’s just doomed to a lifetime of I’m sorry’s and ass kissing)

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20 hours ago, RealReality said:

Consent is an incredibly real thing.  I'd be mad as hell, but I assumed it was at least part of the reason she bought glow in the dark condoms.  In my experience, you don't see them in the sexual health aisle at the local Target, you have to go someplace to get those.  Right?

 

I think she bought them to appear young and "zany" and fun- like a novelty to make wearing it fun. Possibly he might not be experienced w/condoms so he could see what he was doing w/them in the moment like putting them on properly? IDK. I don't believe she bought them that way so she could see that it was on him, so he wouldn't stealth her.  She would need more brain cells to see that far ahead and she doesn't have them. 

Edited by Alonzo Mosely FBI
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2 hours ago, Colfrmb said:

A lot of people have negative things to say about Mike and I agree with a lot of them. But Natalie comes up with a whole laundry list of specific issues that she has with Mike which apparently never were different

Oh, I couldn't agree more. She's insufferable and they are incredibly mis-matched. My beef with Mike is that he didn't have to bring her here, even though the visa was approved. I'd like to think he was open to giving it another shot but his personality flaws are becoming more and more obvious. They're a toxic couple and they bring out the worst in each other. 

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On 2/21/2021 at 5:30 PM, Hotel Snarker said:

That scene actually made me laugh! Jovi’s mom was talking about how she thought Jovi and Yara actually are in love with each other, and it cuts to Yara telling Jovi “I hate you”.

I think they really love each other but in their own selfishness way.

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On 2/22/2021 at 1:38 AM, seasons said:

I'm suspicious of why Yara insists they don't go to the doctor until three months into the pregnancy. Is that an Eastern European thing? Still makes me wonder if this is real...?

 

Also, doubtful that Brandon and Julia learned anything from the supposed pregnancy scare. They are still going to be stupid and choose not to use birth control. I feel so sorry for any future baby they may have.

 

Probably not much could be done in the first three months... blood work and ultrasound to eliminate any possibility of ectopic pregnancy?

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On 2/22/2021 at 2:17 PM, Mrs. Hanson said:

I thought the same thing.  You can't afford a down payment or deposit on an apartment, you need to shut the chatter over "wedding of our dreams."  I, too, had a modest affair back in the early 90's when I got married.  Second time?  Small outdoor affair for 50 and a lunch afterwards, and THAT was too big for me, lol.  Hey Brandon?  You parents are under ZERO obligation to pay for an optional life choice party.

Exactly... Especially if there are no Julia’s guests invited. Who are they going to invite? a couple of Betty’s neighbors? I’ve not seen Brandon’s friends either. Honestly, I don’t think he has any.

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These women , kartrashians included, live in very mild climates and coats, big sweaters and jackets are hardly necessary.  They just throw them over their shoulders because they are sweating to death underneath them.

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1 hour ago, Colfrmb said:

These women , kartrashians included, live in very mild climates and coats, big sweaters and jackets are hardly necessary.  They just throw them over their shoulders because they are sweating to death underneath them.

It’s all for show, they think it’s visually slimmer like that.

Edited by Malvina
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23 hours ago, Grifter Lives said:

They both may perceive themselves as damaged goods because of their past marriages.  But they stay together out of desperation or resignation.  However, at least one of them should be able to articulate and attempt to address their greatest struggles.  Instead, they just broadly attack and insult each other.

I'd almost want to see Yara or possibly Julia speak to Natalie for a moment of truth on the season tell-nothing - just like Alla and Anfisa.  I wouldn't buy Discovery+ for it.)

I'm not buying Discovery + for anything.

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On 2/23/2021 at 12:26 AM, RealReality said:

Whats the point of a glow in the dark condom if you're not going to look at it?  

To me, this is where Stephani's story kinda falls apart.  The whole novelty of a glow in the dark condom, to me, would be to look at a glow in the dark ding dong bobbing about.  Why else would you get a glow in the dark condom, if she was super worried about STDs why didn't she check the easiest way?

Sooo maaaaach this!
Plus bs that she didn’t know he was wearing it.  Girls know how it feels.  Plus they smell like bandaids.  

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Yara is my spirit animal. I love that she unabashedly puts Jovi, his mom, and his dad in their place. She's clearly the boss. Love it. 

Mike and Natalie. Mike is so incredibly insecure. Natalie's delivery needs work, but Mike seems like one of those wounded/ guarded guys that is always on guard. All Natalie wants is someone that will eat healthy with her and go on hikes. It's not like she is on his ass about his 401K contribution, and auditing his accounts. Then he would really be screwed.

 

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12 hours ago, Lambie said:

I'd like to think he was open to giving it another shot but his personality flaws are becoming more and more obvious. They're a toxic couple and they bring out the worst in each other. 

For me, HE has more "worsts" to bring out than Natalie does. He's manipulative and conniving--and learned it at his mother's knee.

 

 

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