S02.E03: Bat Girl Magic!

[Trini]

As Ryan Wilder continues to prove herself as Batwoman, she encounters the challenge of every superhero – living a double life. Mary is still Team Ryan, while Luke continues to have reservations – especially when Ryan makes some alterations and unveils a new Batsuit! Meanwhile, Victor Szasz (guest star Alex Morf) is slashing his way through the city streets, and Commander Kane has The Crows trying to stop the flow of Snakebite through Gotham. Safiyah (guest star Shivaani Ghai) takes notice of Alice’s antics and Sophie finds herself in unexpected circumstances.

Holly Dale directed the episode written by Nancy Kiu.

Airdate: 1/31/2021

[Primal Slayer]

This was a great episode. I really enjoyed it from start to finish.

The show was very honest with itself which was refreshing, the wig was bad, Ryan doesnt fit perfectly into Kates version of the suit, Mary/Luke are at odds with the future of Batwoman.

Safiyahs island was very Wonder Womany.

Somehow every version of Zsasz has been enjoyable and I hope we get to see Batwomans version again.

But please lets not try to act like Buce/Fox's work on the Batmobile is outdated or that Ryan has to be that great in mechanics to make it better. Unless its a paint job, then sure. 

[scarynikki12]

My One True Zsasz will always be the Gotham one but this guy wasn’t bad.

Ryan has a job at the bar now so it’s house hunting time! Well, apartment hunting more likely but still. Maybe she can move in with new BFF Mary and start having movie nights?

I hope Safiyah isn’t lying about Kate being alive. I’m looking forward to the hoops Alice has to jump through to get her back.

[memememe76]

I gotta say that this season has been excellent. The more collaborative feel has been great. Kate aside, last season was so Alice heavy. All of the characters are better than last year. Well, maybe not Mary but that’s because she was always great.

[Primal Slayer]

3 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Ryan has a job at the bar now so it’s house hunting time! Well, apartment hunting more likely but still. Maybe she can move in with new BFF Mary and start having movie nights?

That is definitely the best way to go. Mary would probably love a roommate and one less set for them to build/reuse from another show.

[cambridgeguy]

In the future Ryan may want to cuff the knocked out baddies before majestically sailing off into the night. 

And this is another reminder that scientists should just head off to remote islands to find miracle drugs rather than try to make their own.  Lian Yu had its herbs, now Coryana has the Desert Rose. 

[Twilight Man]

55 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

My One True Zsasz will always be the Gotham one but this guy wasn’t bad

I couldn't disagree more, but we all have our opinions.

THIS Zsasz was finally the comic book Zsasz that I have been waiting to see,

not the generic "#2" henchman to Cobblepot, nor the very unremarkable killer in BOP.

(I sometimes need to be reminded that was him in that movie).

[UnoAgain]

Victor Zsasz.... Life coach... He was oddly endearing... Glad Luke got outta his funk at the end.. Didn't wanna see him pouting for more weeks.. Not sure what the show is doing with this Kate is alive stuff... Seems pointless... But I'm enjoying the ride... Sophie wasnt annoying... No Julia... Still waiting for her to meet and approve of Ryan... Love insta-buddies Ryan and Mary... Won't be long before she's asking Mary wassup with her and Luke 

Also... Alice had her own island 5 years ago... Are all islands just littered with blonde children of wealth and their odd ethnic mentors who teach them how to kill? 

[TiffanyNichelle]

Still really liking the dynamic between Luke, Mary, and Ryan but I'm hoping that this means Luke will finally ease up on Ryan a little. Stop taking his worry about Kate out on her. The new suit and wig is a good look though either do more red highlights or just drop them completely. You can barely see them.

They did a good job of centering the plot of this season around Safiyah. Everyone has some kind of connection to her and everyone has now heard her name.

I liked Zsasz as a villain and I kind of hope he comes back soon. Ryan knowing him on sight because of her past was a nice touch.

That Jack Napier shoutout, does that mean we'll get a look at the Joker after all?

Ryan's got a job, she'll probably get an apartment next week, ok let's now move into her love life.

[AnimeMania]

Finally some different Villains, if I have to keep watching Batwoman continuously catch and release Alice every week, I am going to throw up. Of course Kate is still alive so that nobody can touch Alice until she finds her.

[Primal Slayer]

I do find it funny that Ryans parole person is like "get a job!" ok I got a job "ok now get a place to live next week" as if she is supposed to have enough income within that allotted time.

[Proteus]

I thought this episodes ending was awful & undid any good will I have for this show. We know Ruby Rose is never coming back. We know Kate Kane will never be recast. So basing the whole show around saving Kate, a character who is gone forever, is pointless. Either move on from Kate Kane/Ruby Rose or end the show. Keeping all of the characters in this limbo of saving Kate when she is never returning is pointless.

[Trini]

So the first two episodes were tying up loose ends, transitioning, and set-up, and I feel that this one introducing Safiyah and the Kate mystery is where everything really gelled. I'm officially on board - please don't screw this up, show.

Well, we needed a reason for everyone NOT to kill Alice on sight, and I guess we have it. However, I don't believe that Safiyah has Kate.

They stopped Zsasz, but those cured people are still in danger, right? Safiyah wants all traces of the Desert Rose to disappear, I assume.

LOL! I was going to ask the same question as Luke -- how did the Gazette get a glamour shot of Batwoman?? Glad they explained that Mary sent it.
 

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Somehow every version of Zsasz has been enjoyable and I hope we get to see Batwomans version again.

Yeah, we got three good Zsaszes. That's pretty amazing.

 

1 hour ago, UnoAgain said:

Also... Alice had her own island 5 years ago... Are all islands just littered with blonde children of wealth and their odd ethnic mentors who teach them how to kill? 

Haaa! Well, when you put it like that... yeah, they should really stop adopting whoever washes up on their shores.

[Jediknight]

31 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I thought this episodes ending was awful & undid any good will I have for this show. We know Ruby Rose is never coming back. We know Kate Kane will never be recast. So basing the whole show around saving Kate, a character who is gone forever, is pointless.

Time and money heal wounds.  She might agree to do a cameo, for a small fee.

It's been glossed over, but are we getting Roman Sionis?  There was a throwaway line to Black Mask at the end.

[Kromm]

30 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I thought this episodes ending was awful & undid any good will I have for this show. We know Ruby Rose is never coming back. We know Kate Kane will never be recast. So basing the whole show around saving Kate, a character who is gone forever, is pointless. Either move on from Kate Kane/Ruby Rose or end the show. Keeping all of the characters in this limbo of saving Kate when she is never returning is pointless.

I actually think the only way to totally move past the character IS to recast, with some excuse about plastic surgery, but to have the recast version on the show only long enough to tie up loose ends for good.

"Mysteriously gone" comes off as total bullshit after awhile, especially if it was already built on the foundation of Batman already being mysteriously gone.

There's always death as a solution, but it would feel double-bullshitty happening off-screen.

[possibilities]

I really enjoyed Zsasz. 

Love the new wig.

Love Mary. But she's making me a little sad. She seems as desperate for a sister as Alice is. Mary is super-awesome. I don't understand why she doesn't have a BFF and a posse and a devoted partner and/or endless suitors.

[Primal Slayer]

2 minutes ago, Kromm said:

I actually think the only way to totally move past the character IS to recast, with some excuse about plastic surgery, but to have the recast version on the show only long enough to tie up loose ends for good.

"Mysteriously gone" comes off as total bullshit after awhile, especially if it was already built on the foundation of Batman already being mysteriously gone.

There's always death as a solution, but it would feel double-bullshitty happening off-screen.

Death is the only answer imo because having Kate give up the Batwoman mantle and just live with her life completely ruins the character. Either death or stranding her on a different Earth.

[Lantern7]

Good episode, but the final scene with Ryan and the parole officer requires suspension of disbelief bordering on expulsion.

1. How does the newspaper get that good of a picture of the new Batwoman? What, did she knock Zsasz out and then drop a few 8x10 glossies for the press?
2. The picture looks really good. The PO loves the new hotness. Ryan is standing right in front of her. Yeah, I know, classic trope, but inside my mind? I was banging my head against a wall. If it makes things easier, I did it humorously. I don't feel like nitpicking, but it's just too much.

For me, I don't think the Gotham version of Mr. Zsasz can be topped. I know, that was basically Anthony Carrigan playing up the snark and not having to work in self-mutilation to the role, but he was funny. The BW version brings the snark and the scarring. He did seem to be in God Mode before Ryan sprung her bo staff for the KO. Seriously, who carries around a rocket launcher? Ryan's reaction was solid.

[Looking at the first post . . . it's "Szasz"? Once again, I'm not picking nits.]

Rest of the episode was fun. I can dig Mary and Luke as the surrogate parents of the new Batwoman. We get to learn a little about Safiyah, and she hints about having Kate. Also, Vesper Fairchilld is annoying. This isn't a slam on Rachel Maddow. I'm thinking maybe we don't need a one-woman Greek chorus anymore.

[Trini]

50 minutes ago, Kromm said:

"Mysteriously gone" comes off as total bullshit after awhile, especially if it was already built on the foundation of Batman already being mysteriously gone.

Ugh - you just reminded me that Bruce/Batman being missing is probably another storyline that's gone with Kate. I wasn't really expecting it to be resolved soon, but now it might never get resolved. It wouldn't have the same impact without Kate.

 

30 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

[Looking at the first post . . . it's "Szasz"? Once again, I'm not picking nits.]

I copy-pasted that from the CW press release; it's probably a typo. Closed captions on the episode spell it "Zsasz".

[cambridgeguy]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

Love Mary. But she's making me a little sad. She seems as desperate for a sister as Alice is. Mary is super-awesome. I don't understand why she doesn't have a BFF and a posse and a devoted partner and/or endless suitors.

Obviously it's hard for attractive billionaire heiresses to get attention.  Although her clinic is a really popular place for villains to pop up - she should probably get a gun. 

Ryan is still running a bit behind Kate in the press department.  Kate got a cover story and full color photo in Catco.  I'd like to think that in offscreen world Kara is wondering why there's a new Batwoman running around.

[Diapason Untuned]

10 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Time and money heal wounds.  She might agree to do a cameo, for a small fee.

It's been glossed over, but are we getting Roman Sionis?  There was a throwaway line to Black Mask at the end.

Even if we got a cameo, she's not coming back full time, so spending half the season on people chasing down Kate only for her to maybe appear once, give Ryan her blessing and then disappear is just a waste of time.

 

11 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I do find it funny that Ryans parole person is like "get a job!" ok I got a job "ok now get a place to live next week" as if she is supposed to have enough income within that allotted time.

Ryan's PO is trying too hard. Give her some room to breathe.

 

10 hours ago, possibilities said:

I really enjoyed Zsasz. 

Yeah, this Zsasz was great. We're really on a streak of them.

 

Quote

Love the new wig.

Yeah, this wig suits Ryan way better.

 

Quote

Love Mary. But she's making me a little sad. She seems as desperate for a sister as Alice is. Mary is super-awesome. I don't understand why she doesn't have a BFF and a posse and a devoted partner and/or endless suitors.

Well, she's a med student, she runs a free clinic, she volunteers at Batwoman Inc, so she doesn't really have a lot of free time. Plus, didn't her reputation get damaged because that stuff with her mom, to the point that she took a break from social media?

Edited February 1, 2021 by Diapason Untuned

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, Proteus said:

I thought this episodes ending was awful & undid any good will I have for this show. We know Ruby Rose is never coming back. We know Kate Kane will never be recast. So basing the whole show around saving Kate, a character who is gone forever, is pointless. Either move on from Kate Kane/Ruby Rose or end the show. Keeping all of the characters in this limbo of saving Kate when she is never returning is pointless.

We strongly suspect these things, but we don't know.

Ruby Rose may decide to bury whatever hatchet.

Or the producers may decide that for the story they want to tell, it is important to have Kate Kane come back that they are willing to recast her. 

Or they can do something along the lines of what we saw last episode and have a silhouetted/hooded figure represent Kate or have someone mimic Kate's voice.

We are just three episodes into the post-Kate world. It would be weird to me that her family and friends would not still be feeling her loss.

Now if three episodes from now, everything is Kate Kate Kate Kate Kate, then that's more of an issue.

 

[Diapason Untuned]

15 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We strongly suspect these things, but we don't know.

Ruby Rose may decide to bury whatever hatchet.

Even if she buries the hatchet, I highly doubt she'll come back full time.

 

Quote

Or the producers may decide that for the story they want to tell, it is important to have Kate Kane come back that they are willing to recast her. 

I would think they would have recast her from the start if this was the case.

 

Quote

Or they can do something along the lines of what we saw last episode and have a silhouetted/hooded figure represent Kate or have someone mimic Kate's voice.

Sorry but that just sounds like a horrible idea.

It worked right there because it was from Ryan's perspective, but it's not a trick they can keep doing.

 

Quote

 

We are just three episodes into the post-Kate world. It would be weird to me that her family and friends would not still be feeling her loss.

Now if three episodes from now, everything is Kate Kate Kate Kate Kate, then that's more of an issue.

 

Kate's friends and family mourning her is only right, there's no problem there.

The problem is that the show just introduced a plotline that, judging from last season, they'll drag all season and it probably can't have any good resolution.

The best way for this plotline to end is if Safiyah reveals that she just stole Kate's necklace and is pretending Kate is alive in order to manipulate Alice.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Diapason Untuned

[Rushmoras]

Hooray, I see that the screenwriters in the past saw my ep2 rant and decided to act accordingly. See, now this is why, Ryan, you do not turn your back at an enemy that you just shurikened (battaranged, whatever). Because he's still conscious!

I wanted more Zasz. Now he was the most interesting villain since Alice, and he is now in jail. Booooo! You suck, Ryan!

Ah, I see that they are going down OUAT route of your major villains being tied up in everything. Well, yeah, I suppose, there was a leevay in the timeline for the writers to go, oh, but she was not always with Mouse. She actually for five years was on an island meditating and shit!

So, either Safayah is lying or Kate is alive, and, what... either we are going to get a recast (and Bat Girl gonna get her own spin-off, cause, notice that the article named her Bat Girl), or in the end Safayah gonna kill Kate, and we will be right back were we left off).

[driver18]

1 hour ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Even if she buries the hatchet, I highly doubt she'll come back full time.

 

I would think they would have recast her from the start if this was the case.

 

Sorry but that just sounds like a horrible idea.

It worked right there because it was from Ryan's perspective, but it's not a trick they can keep doing.

 

Kate's friends and family mourning her is only right, there's no problem there.

The problem is that the show just introduced a plotline that, judging from last season, they'll drag all season and it probably can't have any good resolution.

The best way for this plotline to end is if Safiyah reveals that she just stole Kate's necklace and is pretending Kate is alive in order to manipulate Alice.

You don't know how things are going to fall out. So many were pre-judging this season and what a horrible decision was made by Caroline Dries and the show on having a new batwoman, and yet how it's playing out is already doing out quite well.

Instead of assuming that the pay-off is going to just suck monkey balls, why not give the show that has done a fantastic job so far--as it did last season--some credit and see what they are going to do before telling us all what a terrible job they are going to do.

[AnimeMania]

13 hours ago, possibilities said:

Love Mary. But she's making me a little sad. She seems as desperate for a sister as Alice is. Mary is super-awesome. I don't understand why she doesn't have a BFF and a posse and a devoted partner and/or endless suitors.

Mary is the worst friend you could have, her employee dies right in front of her face, who does she make a memorial for, Kate, she doesn't even know if she is dead. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Even if she buries the hatchet, I highly doubt she'll come back full time.

 

I would think they would have recast her from the start if this was the case.

 

Sorry but that just sounds like a horrible idea.

It worked right there because it was from Ryan's perspective, but it's not a trick they can keep doing.

 

Kate's friends and family mourning her is only right, there's no problem there.

The problem is that the show just introduced a plotline that, judging from last season, they'll drag all season and it probably can't have any good resolution.

The best way for this plotline to end is if Safiyah reveals that she just stole Kate's necklace and is pretending Kate is alive in order to manipulate Alice.

Presumably, neither the CW nor Ruby Rose want her to come back full time. If the current Batwoman is a failure, then presumably, they will cut their losses. If it's moderate or a success, they'll be fine with her not doing a long-term return. If it's as simple as RR doesn't want to risk injury or the grueling schedule of an ongoing TV serries, then perhaps they  can bring her back for a single episode for closure.

It could be that they felt like it would have been too difficult under the contract that RR has to recast her. Or it could be that they were concerned that the timing might not allow for a full-on search for a new Kate Kane and always intended Ryan Wilder to be a stop-gap measure.

Given how many genre shows have said goodbye or hello to new characters and old in ways as bad or worse than this, I would not put it past the powers that be. 

Much of the first season is a blur, but as I recall, Kate spent exactly 0 time looking for Bruce. I imagine that other than Alice's fetch-quest, there will be little time spent looking for Kate. They may ultimately resolve it by saying "Haha, I took this necklace from Kate before I blew her up" or "Haha, I had this duplicate necklace made!" Indeed, it seems like though she is crazy, Alice should have demanded greater proof of life than a necklace. 

[thuganomics85]

Wasn't aware that the show would be doing their own version of Victor Zsasz!  While I think Anthony Carrigan's version from Gotham will always be my favorite, I enjoyed this one as well and thought the actor did a good job (interestingly, according to IMDB, he had a minor role on Gotham as well!)  But I get a kick out of how Zsasz is such a ruthless psychopath obviously, but is strangely professional and even insightful at times.  I honestly think he wanted to Ryan to truly "find herself" as Batwoman, and was happy when she did: even if it involved him getting taken out!  Not surprised he was defeated since Ryan really needed a solid victory, but hopefully he will come back into the fold soon.  He has to at least cross paths with Alice, right?  The potential for those two together would be a gold mine!

I'm glad Luke is starting to come around a bit with Ryan officially being the new Batwoman and doing things her way (and changing the suit), but I can understand why he is still clinging onto the idea of Kate coming back after everything they've been through.  Still, I can understand Mary's reasoning over why it is time to move on and help Ryan get there: especially since Gotham really needs.  I can see why this puts them both at odds, but I hope they work it out.

So, Shivanni Ghai (who I know best as Arika from Dominion) is here as the mysterious Safiyah!  Not sure if her character comes from the comics, but between the mysterious island and apparently training a bunch of killers, I'm really getting some "Al Ghul" vibes from this character and the whole storyline.  Definitely suspicious over her claims that Kate is alive and her prisoner.  Normally, I would buy it, but with how things played out with Ruby Rose apparently, I really don't see a Kate return unless they do a full-blown recast.  But I guess this is a solid way to keep Alice involved as the main villain in Gotham.

Rachel Maddow seem to really be having fun with the silly puns here!

I'm admittedly not familiar with a lot of this stuff, but Ryan's parole officer really seems unreasonably a lot of times.  And I'm guessing her fangirling over the new Batwoman is going to lead to a moment where Ryan will have to save her while in the batsuit.

[tennisgurl]

Its really hard to beat the Gotham version of Victor Zsasz, but I really liked this version and I think the actor did a good job. He's a vicious amoral killer, but also quite genuinely affable and friendly, and can even be quite insightful. I love that he, of all people, ended up giving her the pep talk she needed to make being Batwoman her own, and that he knows Ryan in her civilian identity. I hope that he can come back again, this show really needs more reoccurring villains besides Alice. 

So we meet Safiyah, who has a very League of Assassins' kind of vibe, and has a mysterious history with Alice, which I guess is how she got the skills she needed to become a supervillain. Are we going to get several seasons worth of flashbacks now to her whole history on a secret island where she became an assassin? Just how many of these hidden islands where traumatized rich kids lean to get badass are there?! 

So are Sophie and Alice going to team up to find Kate, which would also give Sophia something to do in the plot now that Kate is gone?

So after last week, I thought that Kate was probably dead, but this week it seems like she might actually be alive, even if I am not sure that Safiyah is actually the one behind her disappearance. If they don't want to actually kill Kate off, because they think its a bad ending for her character or because they don't want to kill off a LGBTQ lead character and get a backlash or something, its possible they might finally pull the magic science plastic surgery card, have another actress play Kate, and she can return to give her story closure, say goodbye to her family, and have her give Ryan her blessing as the new Batwoman. Or maybe if enough time passes they are even hoping for a RR cameo, and they can say that she joined Bruce wherever he is or otherwise retired. I just want them to give us and the characters an answer one way or another. 

I think I am getting more of a feel for Ryan as a character now, she has more going on than her super tragic backstory and is showing more of her personality, and I think her dynamics with Mary and Luke are getting better and more interesting. Mary is totally down to give Ryan a shot and wants to commit to her as Batwoman (possibly looking for a new, non murderous sister figure) but Luke isnt so sure, and is still holding out hope that Kate might be alive. I totally understand how hard this is, but I hope that he can start accepting Ryan now, its not her fault that Kate is gone, and someone has to do this. What is Gotham without someone dramatically standing on a building at night with their cape billowing behind them? Ryan struggling with filling the bat suite, literally and figuratively, seems very real. She might be Batwoman, but she isnt Kate, and she needs to find her own way to be Batwoman. Plus, that wig is WAY better. 

Ryan's parole officer needs to slow her rolls, Ryan just got a job, how is she supposed to already be able to afford a place? Lucky for Ryan, she is now gal pals with a billionaire, so that should help...

[Trini]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Now if three episodes from now, everything is Kate Kate Kate Kate Kate, then that's more of an issue.

I don't think this is really a spoiler, but the showrunner has said

Spoiler

... that finding Kate will be an ongoing storyline this season. I think most likely a season-long thing, even if they don't spend every episode on it.

 

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

It could be that they felt like it would have been too difficult under the contract that RR has to recast her. Or it could be that they were concerned that the timing might not allow for a full-on search for a new Kate Kane and always intended Ryan Wilder to be a stop-gap measure.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm sure whatever previous contract they had is null now. It sucks, but I'm pretty sure they're done with Kate as a regular character. 2020 was the one year where they did have 'extra' time to recast, but chose to go a different direction. If Ruby and TPTB can't come to an agreement for a guest spot, I can see a recast for one episode to wrap up her story.

The showrunner (and DC) doesn't want to kill her, but it's going to be hard to come up with an explanation for Kate ditching Gotham. (I mean, we still don't know why Bruce ditched Gotham....)

[Chicago Redshirt]

I don't know entertainment law, but I would think that contracts for actors cover all sorts of contingencies, including what happens in case of injury or sickness. Even if there is not a specific contingency in the original contract, I would guess that there would be some level of negotiating to reach a settlement. In this specific case, RR was injured during the filming of Batwoman. It's likely IMO in trying to resolve that situation short of a lawsuit that the parties negotiated on polnts like a potential replacement. And of course, even if it is not a literal term in a contract or settlement, it is possible that the production company's lawyers are just risk-averse and might have advised against recasting KK.

[appositival]

22 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I hope Safiyah isn’t lying about Kate being alive.

Did she actually say that Kate's alive? I just recall her saying that Alice could 'see' Kate. When Alice completes the plot-quest, I'm guessing that Safiyah will lead her to an unmarked grave and give her a shovel.

[BaggythePanther]

6 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

Ah, I see that they are going down OUAT route of your major villains being tied up in everything. Well, yeah, I suppose, there was a leevay in the timeline for the writers to go, oh, but she was not always with Mouse. She actually for five years was on an island meditating and shit!

So, either Safayah is lying or Kate is alive, and, what... either we are going to get a recast (and Bat Girl gonna get her own spin-off, cause, notice that the article named her Bat Girl), or in the end Safayah gonna kill Kate, and we will be right back were we left off).

I originally thought Safiya would just be tied to Alice, but I do think it's a better choice to go the OUAT route and have her connected to everyone somehow. With Kate gone the characters have lost a major connection and replacing it with the season's big bad is as good idea as any. I'm pretty sure the article at the end referred to Ryan as Batwoman, not Bat Girl. If you're talking about the episode title I'm pretty sure it's just a play on the phrase "Black Girl Magic".

Also, Mary needs better protection. This wasn't the first time she was attacked in the clinic and it probably won't be the last.

[Kromm]

7 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

Hooray, I see that the screenwriters in the past saw my ep2 rant and decided to act accordingly

It's refreshing to see someone realize time travel would be necessary for something like this!

[quarks]

Decent episode, if we all work very very hard to ignore that Batwoman has fallen victim to the second season curse of every Arrowverse show: budget cuts. 

1. It physically hurts me to see an Arrowverse show back on that same stretch of Lian Yu beach again. Like, physically hurts me. Vancouver is a Nice Big Place, Berlanti. LET'S GO SEE MORE OF IT. 

2.  Speaking of which, it also physically hurts me to see Zsasz enter the same freaking lobby we have now seen on Arrow, Flash, and Supergirl and attack someone in about the same spot where people have been attacked on Flash and Supergirl. It's a nice lobby. I'm not trying to say it isn't. But I am trying to say that the one advantage of Covid should be that more large office lobbies should be available. Again, let's explore!

3. We are just going to skip over the convenient method of getting Ryan a new day job that doesn't require building a new set - though at least in this case I could see the reasoning/plot/character behind it. Kinda. Because if people start putting together that the first Batwoman vanished at about the same time as Kate Kane's plane crash, and a new Batwoman showed up at about the same time that Ryan started working at Kate Kane's former bar, well.

Then again, these are the same people who have apparently not yet figured out that Bruce Wayne is Batman so maybe this is the ideal cover story for Ryan.

4. Zsasz pausing to explain things to the girl in the tub and later to Batwoman right before pulling out a missile launcher was great. Hopefully he'll be back.

5. Glad to see I'm not the only one blinking to see Mary set up a little memorial for Kate despite the lack of a body and yet nothing for the coworker despite definite body. I love you, Mary, I really do, and I am willing to blame this one on your writers, but ack. 

Also, pay Ryan more. Bartending in Arrowverse shows is a very dangerous profession. Get Ryan the hazard pay she will definitely be earning very soon!

5. And Sophie got to be competent this week! More of this, please!

[Katsullivan]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Just how many of these hidden islands where traumatized rich kids lean to get badass are there?! 

 

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

What is Gotham without someone dramatically standing on a building at night with their cape billowing behind them?

OMG, your entire comment got me in stitches.

So does anyone think Mary/Luke is still happening or just me?

 

[mrspidey]

Well, that was certainly an interesting take on Victor Zasz. In the comics he's just an extremely dangerous serial killer, not a professional and renowned hitman. I also don't remember him to be this talkative and, erm, "cultured"...

 

Also, Mary got over the death of her assistant a bit too easily...

Edited February 2, 2021 by mrspidey

[Proteus]

23 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We strongly suspect these things, but we don't know.

Ruby Rose may decide to bury whatever hatchet.

Or the producers may decide that for the story they want to tell, it is important to have Kate Kane come back that they are willing to recast her. 

Or they can do something along the lines of what we saw last episode and have a silhouetted/hooded figure represent Kate or have someone mimic Kate's voice.

We are just three episodes into the post-Kate world. It would be weird to me that her family and friends would not still be feeling her loss.

Now if three episodes from now, everything is Kate Kate Kate Kate Kate, then that's more of an issue.

 

I feel that we do know. Ever since May, the one thing everyone connected to the show has been adamant about is that Kate will never be recast & Ruby Rose will never return. I'm not going to assume that TPTB or RR will change their  minds . The longer they drag out giving Kate a permanent exit & make it clear onscreen she is never coming back, the more in hurts the show imo. Dries made the decision to create Ryan Wilder against protests. I just feel it's time to embrace Ryan & let go of Kate.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I feel that we do know. Ever since May, the one thing everyone connected to the show has been adamant about is that Kate will never be recast & Ruby Rose will never return. I'm not going to assume that TPTB or RR will change their  minds . The longer they drag out giving Kate a permanent exit & make it clear onscreen she is never coming back, the more in hurts the show imo. Dries made the decision to create Ryan Wilder against protests. I just feel it's time to embrace Ryan & let go of Kate.

Either belieivng RR won't return or that she will/might or that TPTB will recast her role or they won't all are assumptions (unless you can travel to the future or something).

I share the assumption that RR isn't coming back and KK is not going to be recast in a meaningful way (i.e.. with an actress who is going to have a speaking presence and more than the silhouette we saw.)

But even if it's an assumption that we could be 99.9999 percent confident of, there's still that fraction of a chance. 

I didn't follow the real-world drama closely, but I think that one thing that TPTB were also adamant about was that they were not going to kill KK. Now it could be that they've moved off that position too, or it could be that they will leave KK's fate a mystery, or it could be that they plan to have some resolution that keeps KK alive but somehow skirts an on-screen appearance.

[Trini]

13 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

So does anyone think Mary/Luke is still happening or just me?

I want it to happen, and near the end of last season there were hints it was going to happen, but so far this season there hasn't been any indicators that it's happening. 😕  Maybe later on?

[AnimeMania]

How can Mary keep her secret underground (illegal, practicing medicine without a license) hospital running when people keep dying in there? Did Mary not tell the police about her assistant's murder, did she not take them to the scene of the crime. The least that Mary can do is hire a real doctor, with a real doctor's license and make a legit "Free Clinic" situation.

It is a shame that Mary sold her shares of the company, it could have been a great cover for Luke to have his own division and make secret Bat Tech. That, and being the heir to the Crows when her (step?)-"dad" kicks, would make Mary a formidable force that could help Batwoman protect Gotham.

Who is looking after Wayne Industries and the Wayne fortune?

It might be a good story line to have Mary be "too" rich to date Luke as she starts to get courted by all the eligible Playboys in Gotham totally sabotaging any dating plans Luke and Mary might try to implement. This goes on a while until Bruce Wayne is declared dead and Luke finds out that he inherits some assets, like a tech company or two from Bruce Wayne, which makes him more of Mary's financial equal.

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 1/31/2021 at 11:54 PM, Primal Slayer said:

I do find it funny that Ryans parole person is like "get a job!" ok I got a job "ok now get a place to live next week" as if she is supposed to have enough income within that allotted time.

Can we see the last of her? I'm sure that the timeline given to Ryan wouldn't be possible for most parolees. Aren't they supposed to help find suitable housing?

On 1/31/2021 at 11:55 PM, Proteus said:

I thought this episodes ending was awful & undid any good will I have for this show. We know Ruby Rose is never coming back. We know Kate Kane will never be recast. So basing the whole show around saving Kate, a character who is gone forever, is pointless. Either move on from Kate Kane/Ruby Rose or end the show. Keeping all of the characters in this limbo of saving Kate when she is never returning is pointless.

In order to keep this interesting, they may have to recast Kate if for nothing else than to pass the baton to Ryan. Otherwise, what is the point?

I'm glad that the Batsuit can be altered.  Why not make a new one for Ryan?  Bruce Wayne had multiple batsuits! 

[possibilities]

I would be upset if Mary declined to date Luke because he doesn't have enough money, and then changed her mind after he inherited a fortune. 

[BaggythePanther]

4 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

How can Mary keep her secret underground (illegal, practicing medicine without a license) hospital running when people keep dying in there? Did Mary not tell the police about her assistant's murder, did she not take them to the scene of the crime. The least that Mary can do is hire a real doctor, with a real doctor's license and make a legit "Free Clinic" situation.

Does Gotham have a police force? We’ve only seen the Crows. If they’re the ones doing the investigating maybe they’re willing to look the other way about the clinic because she’s the boss’s (step)daughter (not relevant to the episode but I really want to know what happened to Mary’s birth father).

 I think Luke and Mary will still be a thing, but right now they’re both grieving Kate and they’ve been at odds about how to handle Ryan. Once a new normal is established I think they’ll start up again.

By the way, is being friends with a millionaire some kind of a requirement for heroes. Oliver and Kate had money but Kara and Barry randomly struck up a friendship with people way outside their tax bracket and now the same thing seems to be happening to Ryan.

[Primal Slayer]

2 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

 

By the way, is being friends with a millionaire some kind of a requirement for heroes. Oliver and Kate had money but Kara and Barry randomly struck up a friendship with people way outside their tax bracket and now the same thing seems to be happening to Ryan.

You know how The Arrowverse loves to follow a formula! 

I wonder with Batarangs being "limited" how often we'll see Ryan rely on them and if they'll go out of their way to show her retrieving them from time to time.

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

It might be a good story line to have Mary be "too" rich to date Luke as she starts to get courted by all the eligible Playboys in Gotham totally sabotaging any dating plans Luke and Mary might try to implement. This goes on a while until Bruce Wayne is declared dead and Luke finds out that he inherits some assets, like a tech company or two from Bruce Wayne, which makes him more of Mary's financial equal.

I could see Mary being swarmed with rich suitors, but nothing in her personality suggests that she would let Luke's relative lack of money get in the way of her possibly being interested in her.

Also, the emphasis is on relative. Mary is a billionaire. Lucius Fox, if the BW Lucius is anything like the other portrayals, was CFO of one of the most powerful and profitable companies out there and a scientific genius. As his only(?) heir, Luke presumably inherented millions of his own, patents worth millions more. On top of that, Bruce presumably hooked him up. I think it's safe to say that Luke doesn't technically have to work another day in his life. 

15 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I'm glad that the Batsuit can be altered.  Why not make a new one for Ryan?  Bruce Wayne had multiple batsuits! 

It seems that BW has acted as though there were only one suit, which was first altered to fit Kate, and now to fit Ryan.

Tommy Elliot's stated motivation for going after Ryan was to get the suit from her so he could be Batman. That's not something that would be necessary if BW Batman was like most traditional portrayals of Batman in the comics, where he had multiple suits on hand. (I supose the notion could be that Bruce took all the other Batsuits with him when he went wherever he did.

12 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

Does Gotham have a police force? We’ve only seen the Crows. If they’re the ones doing the investigating maybe they’re willing to look the other way about the clinic because she’s the boss’s (step)daughter (not relevant to the episode but I really want to know what happened to Mary’s birth father).

 I think Luke and Mary will still be a thing, but right now they’re both grieving Kate and they’ve been at odds about how to handle Ryan. Once a new normal is established I think they’ll start up again.

By the way, is being friends with a millionaire some kind of a requirement for heroes. Oliver and Kate had money but Kara and Barry randomly struck up a friendship with people way outside their tax bracket and now the same thing seems to be happening to Ryan.

I want to say that last episode, there was someone with "GCPD" on his jacket in the Batwoman rally scene. I seem to remember Jacob referring to the commissioner as well. So GCPD exists. The show seems to blur things, because the Crows soemtimes handle things like Ryan's mistaken arrest that one would think would fall under the purview of regular law enforcement. Like it would make sense if the Crows existed to supplement GCPD on major cases or to entirely provide an official response ot super-villains or to protect the moneyed class of Gotham or what not. 

Black Lightning does not have anyone who's a millionaire on his side (unless Gambi has hidden reserves of cash. I mean, I guess he has a sweet lab going on).

Minus Ray Palmer, the Legends don't have any rich people among them.

Stargirl's circle of friends is also seemingly middle-class.

[Stardancer Supreme]

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Tommy Elliot's stated motivation for going after Ryan was to get the suit from her so he could be Batman. That's not something that would be necessary if BW Batman was like most traditional portrayals of Batman in the comics, where he had multiple suits on hand. (I supose the notion could be that Bruce took all the other Batsuits with him when he went wherever he did.

Actually, what would make it make sense is if Luke, Mary, and Ryan spent some time to fully explore the Batcave.  Remember, they didn't even know that the Batmobile was right under their noses the whole time they were there.  Bruce didn't take all of his toys with him, clearly.

[immortalfrieza]

On 1/31/2021 at 11:58 PM, Lantern7 said:

For me, I don't think the Gotham version of Mr. Zsasz can be topped. I know, that was basically Anthony Carrigan playing up the snark and not having to work in self-mutilation to the role, but he was funny. The BW version brings the snark and the scarring.

I don't think the Gotham version of Zsasz can be topped unless they have a depiction where he's simply a completely deranged serial killer, one that's completely out of his mind like the comic version. Gotham had a version that was a professional hitman, was snarky, and wasn't unnecessarily bloodthirsty. This version seems like it was basically that except throwing in the body mutilation part and making him more trigger happy than the Gotham version. Neither of them really fit the original Zsasz completely.

Quote

Seriously, who carries around a rocket launcher?

Someone who has fought Batman before, that's who. And someone who knows the Batsuit is bulletproof and that there is another Batwoman running around.

On 2/1/2021 at 11:45 AM, Rushmoras said:

I wanted more Zasz. Now he was the most interesting villain since Alice, and he is now in jail. Booooo! You suck, Ryan!

Zsasz is in jail in Gotham. He'll have broken out by the end of the week if he's feeling particularly lazy.
 

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I want to say that last episode, there was someone with "GCPD" on his jacket in the Batwoman rally scene. I seem to remember Jacob referring to the commissioner as well. So GCPD exists. The show seems to blur things, because the Crows soemtimes handle things like Ryan's mistaken arrest that one would think would fall under the purview of regular law enforcement. Like it would make sense if the Crows existed to supplement GCPD on major cases or to entirely provide an official response ot super-villains or to protect the moneyed class of Gotham or what not. 

Worse, the Crows are supposed to be nothing more than a private security firm and yet the show has always acted like they basically are the new GCPD. Actual GCPD are regulated to brief cameos at best. Not that the GCPD hasn't proven itself beyond all doubt to be one of the most useless and corrupt police forces in the entirety of comics or anything but the Crows are no better.

As for me, I'm really hoping they show Ryan going through a training montage or something soon because I'm getting really sick of her constantly screwing up and making it clear she's made no effort whatsoever to actually train to use her suit and gadgets at all.

[John Potts]

Wasn't Kate working on providing cheap housing for the poor of Gotham? Sounds like that would be ideal for Ryan if she needs a home. And I liked Mary actually expecting Ryan to work for her and not just make it a purely ceremonial position (even if she will, presumably, be allowed lots of sudden disappearances from her job).

Loved Zzazz! Not as fun as Gotham's Zzazz, but still a hoot. Though using a rocket launcher to shoot Batwoman? If he'd hit her, he'd have been toasted himself. And Mary actually showed sense in dealing with him. She called for backup and ran.

Sophie really does seem completely pointless now - stuck dealing with the Bad Guy's (well, Gal's) minion.

"What kind of a scientist carries a gun?" In Gotham, a sensible one! Also, loved the subversion of the "Safety's on!" by Zzazz.

I assume Luke's "Wah, wah - Batarangs cost money" is part of his not wanting to admit Kate is gone (...for now). At least she's doing something useful - there's not much point running Team Bat HQ if you don't have a Bat-person to do the punching, but I don't see him closing that down.

On 2/1/2021 at 2:21 AM, cambridgeguy said:

In the future Ryan may want to cuff the knocked out baddies before majestically sailing off into the night.

I know! At least knock away his weapons. Sure, he probably has seven concealed daggers on him, but she should make the effort.

On 2/4/2021 at 4:45 AM, immortalfrieza said:

Zsasz is in jail in Gotham. He'll have broken out by the end of the week if he's feeling particularly lazy.

ITA. He probably regards Blackgate (this incarnation doesn't seem mad enough for Arkham, though some versions of Zzazz are) as a sort of weekend holiday home.

On 2/1/2021 at 4:55 AM, Proteus said:

We know Ruby Rose is never coming back. We know Kate Kane will never be recast.

We don't know that. Michael Shanks left Stargate in its 6th Season but came back in the 7th (despite his character being dead!). If things don't work out with Javicia, they might prefer to see if Ruby would come back rather than recast again. And they've already established that people can have completely new faces, if they go that way.