S03.E11: Su’Kal

[paulvdb]

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Discovery ventures to the Verubin Nebula, where Burnham, Saru, and Culber make a shocking realization about the origin of the Burn. The rest of the crew faces an unexpected threat.

 

[paigow]

If Tilly is still Number One after this, Vance should replace the entire crew except Stamets...

[dwmarch]

Actual cause of The Burn: Tilly dropping some Freud on Osyyra.

Tilly also did one thing that makes me think she'll be a great captain: she was immediately suspicious of the other "Starfleet" ship despite it having the right codes.

I guess that mind control hat they used on Stamets is one of a kind. Otherwise it would be handy to use those on planets where revolts are an issue, right?

Good use of Adira here, they actually get to do something for a change. Also good to see that in the future, talking to yourself is not considered at all weird.

Weird editing with Book returning to the ship. There's a voiceover between Saru and Burnham to say his injuries have been treated and I assumed that this was done to avoid filming a trip to sickbay. But we end up in sickbay a little later anyhow where we repeat the same conversation except we now include Grudge. 

I also found it strange that Book was asking Dr. Ididn'tcatchhername if she'd mind looking at Grudge's paw as if she would be doing him a favor. Does no one on this ship like cats? I would think this would play out the other way around: the doctors and nurses would shove Book off to the side like "yeah, he'll be fine, let me see that cat."

Weird Treknology: when Saru has his appearance changed by the holodeck, it apparently somehow changes his feet too. I am under the impression that Kelpians have a naturally raised heel but the holodeck somehow fixes this so that Saru perceives himself to be flat-footed. It could just be that Saru wears funky boots but if not, that's a weird holodeck ability.

Speaking of Saru's appearance change, Doug Jones must have been so happy to be out of that makeup for a day!

That little nub on the underside of the armrest? It was supposed to be the ship's intruder alert system.

[paigow]

49 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

That little nub on the underside of the armrest? It was supposed to be the ship's intruder alert system.

So when an intruder gets to the bridge, Saru/ Pike/ Kirk would have to trigger it manually - like a silent alarm?

Tilly fell for the "villain monologue as a distraction" trick like a noob...

Edited December 24, 2020 by paigow

[GustavMahler]

Star Trek Discovery: In today’s episode, Michael channels help from Mr. Rogers......

Edited December 24, 2020 by GustavMahler

[thuganomics85]

I suspect that a lot of the whole "The hologram changes Michael, Saru, and Culber's species" bit was just an excuse to have Doug Jones out of the Kelpian make-up, but I don't mind since it is always nice seeing him without prosthetics, and I bet he enjoys it as well.  Still, I like that he still made sure to have some of Saru's tics and traits during the "human" scenes, like how he still walked the same way Saru does normally.

So, they reveal the origin of The Burn and it was due to.... an isolated Kelpian, who must have thrown one hell of a tantrum years ago that somehow caused the radiation and dilithium to mix in an extremely unpleasant way.  Can't say that was on of the top of my prediction list!

Tilly in the Captain's Chair wasn't a complete disaster and I did think she showed some moments that will prove she might be effective in this role, with more experience.  But despite the zingers, I had a feeling she was letting Osyraa distract her, and wasn't surprised when it ended with Discovery being taken over.  She really should have just cut the feed after Osyraa's first snarky remark.

Kind of funny that Reno popped in for a few seconds just so Adira could take her badge and go rogue, but in fairness, Reno probably is one of the few crew members who would believable be cool with it.

Booker really should look into giving Grudge her own crew quarters, if his suddenly missions keep causing her to get exposed to radiation (even if it was nonlethal.)  Again, she and Grogu from The Mandalorian seem to be in a competition over who goes through the most shit with their space dad.

Definitely getting into the "it's the final episodes, so shit is really going down!" part of the season.

[dwmarch]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

So when an intruder gets to the bridge, Saru/ Pike/ Kirk would have to trigger it manually - like a silent alarm?

I was joking but the captain's chair should definitely have a function like that. Discovery seems to lack an intruder alert system altogether which I noted all the way back in Season 1 when Harry Mudd managed to destroy the ship forty times over. Now Disco has the sphere data AI and 32nd century upgrades and still no ability to tell when someone is onboard who shouldn't be.

[Stardancer Supreme]

I just noticed Michael's whisper talking in the scene with Tilly.  That is annoying.

Poor Stamets. He just continues to be the ball that is constantly kicked. 

We will see if Osyrra can kick up enough dirt at Starfleet Headquarters.  I still don't find her as menacing as she is supposed to be.  Maybe the actress playing her in a way that doesn't translate well on camera? 

I feel that Sole Admiral Vance is up to something...

Discovery's crew better channel their Mirror universe badassness to take the ship back.  Maybe Zora will have to rid herself of the Emerald Chain Flu.  

Since Su'Kal is the cause of The Burn, wouldn't removing him from that planet nullify the effects? 

And it was weird that Saru's appearance was changed;  I'll bet Su'Kal may have come around when he sees a different Kelpian from his programming.  Lazy writing?

Edited December 24, 2020 by Stardancer Supreme

[MissLucas]

Geez, the source of the Burn is a teenage temper tantrum??? Well, I guess it beats Burn-ham being somehow responsible for it due to more time-travel shenanigans. This show has a truly annoying habit of building up a big mystery and then completely dropping the ball with the reveal. Maybe next episode will give some additional explanation that elevates the story-telling a bit.

Grudge remains the highlight, but I wonder if Sonequa Martin-Green has ever held a cat before.

The only thing I wondered about Tilly's plot: on whose bed were they sitting during that little pep talk?

Oh and at the danger of sounding speciesist I really enjoyed human Saru.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I was joking but the captain's chair should definitely have a function like that

TOS!Kirk had a different style chair...I remember him using a secret button sequence on the armrest to call Security. 

[Kromm]

Su'Kal?  It should have been called Su'cked. 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Kromm said:

Su'Kal?  It should have been called Su'cked. 

Seth Meyers might say Su'Burnt

[Starchild]

That was a cool episode, shades of Charlie X?

On another note, if they're setting up a demotion for Saru to put Michael in the captain's chair, I will so cut a bitch.

[Zonk]

So you can now beam onto other ships willynilly? I know the shields were low but they weren't completely down, were they?

Tilly confirmed horrible captain. If she knew that the shields were completely down and people could beam onto her ship, she should have activated the self destruct the second she didn't hear anything back from Stamits. It's not like the self destruct is instant. It always has a 20 to 30 minute timer on it. So no harm if he just had to go to bathroom.

Anybody else first thought that the "monster" might be the real survivor and the kelpian man just a holo projection of him to more easily interact with the world?

[Frozendiva]

I too wondered if the monster was the real survivor.

I enjoyed seeing Doug Jones out of his makeup. He must have been thrilled to be himself for a week or so.

The Burn was caused by an adolescent having a temper tantrum? Shades of Charlie X, where he would be left on a deserted planet or killed because of his powers.

Why didn't Tilly press the magic button? I don't think Osyra is all that smart, really. No one can see fit to invent a force shield around the bridge? Tilly was smart to cloak the ship and try to out Freud Freud in projecting Osyra's issues. I don't want Michael in the captain's chair. Don't think she has earned it yet.

The dilithium planet looked dark and creepy. Michael played the Cookie Monster very well to the 'baby'.

At least Adira had something to do other than talk to her invisible friend.

[RobertDeSneero]

18 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I also found it strange that Book was asking Dr. Ididn'tcatchhername if she'd mind looking at Grudge's paw as if she would be doing him a favor. Does no one on this ship like cats? I would think this would play out the other way around: the doctors and nurses would shove Book off to the side like "yeah, he'll be fine, let me see that cat."

I read that as Book asking for some time to have a private word and the doctor understanding that code and giving them some space.

 

8 hours ago, Zonk said:

Anybody else first thought that the "monster" might be the real survivor and the kelpian man just a holo projection of him to more easily interact with the world?

I thought that at first.  Now, I wonder if it is his mutated mother or some unmentioned older sibling.

[Biggie B]

14 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Grudge remains the highlight, but I wonder if Sonequa Martin-Green has ever held a cat before.

At the beginning of the season, I came across some article about Grudge that mentioned that SMG and the cat do NOT get along, so maybe that's why she holds Grudge in such an awkward manner.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

At the beginning of the season, I came across some article about Grudge that mentioned that SMG and the cat do NOT get along, so maybe that's why she holds Grudge in such an awkward manner.

Ah, thanks - that explains a lot. So Burnham's always quite skeptical look when Book mentions Grudge is not just an acting choice 🤣

[Helena Dax]

As the captain, Saru was absolutely terrible in this episode. He basically followed Michael's lead all the time.

Isn't Hugh a full member of the Starfleet? He told Stamets that he was going with Michael and Saru for himself. Like, wtf? Aren't those supposed to be his orders?

I liked parts of the episode, but I still think the writing is awful. 

 

 

 

[Quark]

Very enjoyable episode, which sets up the next one well.

[starri]

11 hours ago, Zonk said:

So you can now beam onto other ships willynilly? I know the shields were low but they weren't completely down, were they?

They were about to jump when the Chain guys started beaming into engineering.  The saucer was spinning, and I assume they can't jump if the shields are up.

[Stardancer Supreme]

One thing that stuck with me was when Admiral Vance said to Saru that this was the first Kelpian he has seen since Discovery got to the future.  Isn't Kaminar a member of the Federation?  Why hasn't Saru gone to Kaminar yet?  

[Starchild]

👆 I don't imagine the opportunity has presented itself yet, they've been working non-stop.

I think it would be cool if Saru, Michael and Hugh became the new triumvirate.

Or maybe they're saving that honour for Pike, Spock and Number One.

[xtwheeler]

How does the Kelpian elder fit with the vaharai? Wouldn't the elders be evidence that vaharai is survivable? 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Grudge! Good recombinant kitty!

Book didn't seem nearly as worried about Michael going with the away team as Stamets was about Culber. Not sure I liked that unless he was just trying to be cool.

Loved it when Tilly first settled into the captain's chair.

Did the holo put the away team inside an Escher print?

Okay, Osyraa can die any time now AFAIC. She's way too full of herself. Too bad Georgiou was gone because she would've handled that broad real quick.

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I also found it strange that Book was asking Dr. Ididn'tcatchhername if she'd mind looking at Grudge's paw as if she would be doing him a favor.

Maybe it's disrespectful in some cultures to ask a medical doctor whose job is to treat humans (and whatnot) to act as a veterinarian. That may not be a line Book is accustomed to seeing drawn.

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Again, she and Grogu from The Mandalorian seem to be in a competition over who goes through the most shit with their space dad.

Lol, the stories those two could tell each other if they ever met.

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I feel that Sole Admiral Vance is up to something...

Could it be...treason? 🤔

[RobertDeSneero]

10 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

As the captain, Saru was absolutely terrible in this episode. He basically followed Michael's lead all the time.

Isn't Hugh a full member of the Starfleet? He told Stamets that he was going with Michael and Saru for himself. Like, wtf? Aren't those supposed to be his orders?

I liked parts of the episode, but I still think the writing is awful. 

 

 

 

Part of the story is that Saru may be emotionally compromised because other Kelpians are involved.  I honestly think Saru is a good person who is suited to being captain for a science or exploration mission, but maybe not for a political and military crisis, but Michael is too erratic and Tilly too inexperienced.  The logical thing would be for Starfleet to keep Disco's crew and assign a new captain, or at least a new first officer, as well as other new personnel to supplement the ship's personnel and teach then about their new time and technology.

Hugh could probably come up with a viable reason send someone else in his place if he didn't wish to go.  Not only is he declining to do that, but he is embracing going.

 

1 hour ago, xtwheeler said:

How does the Kelpian elder fit with the vaharai? Wouldn't the elders be evidence that vaharai is survivable? 

I don't think Kelpians undergo varahai anymore.  The holographic doctor in Die Trying said no modern Kelpians have biochemical traces of it.

 

[rwlevin]

3 hours ago, xtwheeler said:

How does the Kelpian elder fit with the vaharai? Wouldn't the elders be evidence that vaharai is survivable?

Saru said he’d never seen one so old before. I thought that meant that the elders were much younger when he was little due to them all being killed at a relatively young age during Varahai. Once they stopped getting killed, they actually started growing old. Dang, kelpians must live for centuries.

Edited December 26, 2020 by rwlevin
Stupid auto-correct

[Zonk]

15 hours ago, starri said:

They were about to jump when the Chain guys started beaming into engineering.  The saucer was spinning, and I assume they can't jump if the shields are up.

That's a lot of assumptions we have to make.

Even if that is the case. We've seen transporter jammers before. Why wouldn't they automatically activate one of those when they are about to jump? That seems like a serious oversight otherwise.

[marinw]

Tilly's captianing feels very Kobayashi Maru. And is she still an ensign? Or did I miss-hear that?

I love Tilly, but I agree with @RobertDeSneero that she is way too inrexperinced.

Nice to see Doug Jones as himself. The only other thing I remember him in is The Shape of Water where he also had a lot a makeup.

Edited December 26, 2020 by marinw

[paigow]

31 minutes ago, marinw said:

Nice to see Doug Jones as himself. The only other thing I remember him in in The Shape of Water where he also had a lot a makeup.

In Hellboy [Ron Perlman version], his character was also water-dwelling...

[diebartdie]

On 12/24/2020 at 10:59 PM, Zonk said:

Anybody else first thought that the "monster" might be the real survivor and the kelpian man just a holo projection of him to more easily interact with the world?
 

I really did think that monster was the real Kelpian just all mutated due to 125 years of radiation.

1 hour ago, marinw said:

Nice to see Doug Jones as himself. The only other thing I remember him in is The Shape of Water where he also had a lot a makeup.

 

54 minutes ago, paigow said:

In Hellboy [Ron Perlman version], his character was also water-dwelling...

Doug Jones also played 2 characters in Pan's Labyrinth, the one with eyes in his palms and Pan himself.

 

[Ceindreadh]

Hearing Saru's voice coming out of Doug Jones face, that was just so damn weird!

[Starchild]

Right? I almost prefer him in makeup somehow.

[wanderingstar]

I had to go on IMDB and find out who played Su'Kal, and lo and behold it was Bill Irwin, one of my favorite hey-it's-that-guys. And he did a great job in the role of Su'Kal.

Saru hearing stories from the Kelpian elder reminded me of scenes on Deep Space Nine when Odo first went to the changeling homeworld. So poignant.

I've been a fan of Doug Jones since the first Hellboy movie, so I enjoyed seeing his face sans makeup.

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I also found it strange that Book was asking Dr. Ididn'tcatchhername if she'd mind looking at Grudge's paw as if she would be doing him a favor.

I think I heard her called Dr. Pollard.

Wonder how the Discovery crew's going to get out of their current jam - and who we might lose along the way.

[paigow]

31 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

who we might lose along the way.

All the qualified candidates for Number One - so Tilly gets the job by default.

[staphdude]

Michael Burnham should never lecture someone about behaving inappropriately under certain circumstances especially claiming people are too emotionally involved... She is too often written as the problem and solution. Although this week Tilly really sh*t the bed.

[Kromm]

17 hours ago, marinw said:

Tilly's captianing feels very Kobayashi Maru. And is she still an ensign? Or did I miss-hear that?

I love Tilly, but I agree with @RobertDeSneero that she is way too inrexperinced.

Nice to see Doug Jones as himself. The only other thing I remember him in is The Shape of Water where he also had a lot a makeup.

It's ludicrous. Not just the stupidly wanked command situation the show unnecessarily placed her into, but it occurs to me that even her still being an Ensign is stretching credibility now.  In the US Navy, the most reasonable analogue we can use to real life, average time in service from Ensign to Lt. JG is about two years.  And Tilly has supposedly been exceptional, not just average.  We know she's been an Ensign since 2256.  Discovery was in the 23d century until some point in 2258.  We don't have exact dates, but it's pretty likely she was in that grade at least two years before the ship even changed timeframes, and it could be as long as 3 years depending on how the dates work out.  Then add whatever time they've been in the 32nd century. 

Or course modern Star Trek being as eye rolling as it is, rather than promote her normally, the fix seems to be to jump her up to acting First Officer. Because heaven knows those officers who spent decades gaining rank don't count.  

Just a few we know about:

Linus is apparently a JG.
Bryce is a JG.
Owosekun is a JG.
Nilsson is a full Lt.
Detmer is a full Lt.
Rhys is a full Lt.
Culber (as we know from TNG, Doctors are not necessarily exempt from at least acting command positions) is a Lt. Cmdr.
Stamets, as frequently discussed, is a Lt. Cmdr.
Reno appears to be a full Commander.

And we know there are other officers we don't get to see because they don't serve on the Bridge, in the Spore Drive area, or Sickbay, the only three locations we consistently see.   There's probably a Chief Engineer somewhere (it doesn't appear to be Reno, despite her rank, and Stamets is only in charge of the Spore Drive).  

And Saru goes for the one who hasn't even made JG. For... er... reasons.

[Zonk]

On 12/26/2020 at 3:37 PM, diebartdie said:

Doug Jones also played 2 characters in Pan's Labyrinth, the one with eyes in his palms and Pan himself.

Also he once met coldmirror and that is about as famous as it gets in my book:

 

Edit: I guess because I watched that moment in the video a few times to get the right time to link to, the all powerfull youtube algorythm decided to show me this video that is even better:

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Zonk

[ottoDbusdriver]

I found this episode just so disappointing -- between Tilly's crappy captaining and the weak ass explanation for 'The Burn'. 
Hell, I would rather have had Reno in the Captain's chair -- she couldn't have done any worse than Tilly.

Plus, two 2-parters in an row -- really ??

[Chyromaniac]

I thought this was pretty good - if nothing else, the species swap for Saru, Michael and Hugh was fun.  Personally I think Doug deserves awards consideration for Saru regardless- but for a story that focuses so much on his character, it feels appropriate that he gets to use his own face.

Overall I thought the away mission story was really interesting.  I liked having the environment as a (somewhat faulty) simulation - it made everything mysterious and slightly dangerous.  Michael did a reasonable job trying to connect with Su’Kal, which hopefully Saru can follow up on.  And I really enjoy Culber as this kind of moderating presence on the rest of the crew- he’s basically ship counselor, and I think it fits well with his character.

As for Tilly, I guess I don’t understand what exactly she did “wrong” in this situation- or what any other character could have done better.  She correctly determined that the incoming ship was hostile.  She attempted to stall/bluff for time - but when it was clear that a confrontation was imminent, she tried to retreat.  The only things she didn’t account for was Elpheba dropping two goons directly into the spore chamber right as they were jumping out, or that they had a mind control tiara for Stamets.  And again, I don’t see how any other character could have anticipated those things either.  I get that it’s logistically weird for an Ensign to be second in command of the ship- but part of her story is learning to be in charge.  As such, this is a situation where there is more value narratively in placing her in this situation, rather than a “superior” like Nilsson or Bryce.  Tilly needs to be tested- we’ll just have to see how it works out.

[AnimeMania]

Osyraa: Don't test me, Red.

Captain Killy: Then don't bore me, Green.

Captain Killy should have launched Book's ship the moment she thought something was wrong. Maybe he could get the jump on Osyraa in some way.

You would think there would be some type of "Radiation Suit" they could wear that would protect them better than just a badge.

I am guessing that Burnham will just power through her Radiation Sickness next week to fight 200 bad guys and reclaim her ship. 

I might be stupid, but if Su’Kal can make all the Dilithium Crystals in the universe explode when he gets upset, why is there an entire planet made of Dilithium still existing less than 2 feet away from him? The only logical explanation is that all the ships exploded when all of their Dilithium was instantaneously transported/teleported into that planet.

[KimberStormer]

Finally saw this, it was the usual mix of a lot of fun and strange, strange choices.  God it's weird that they took Saru out of the makeup.  It's SO FREAKIN WEIRD.  And god love her but SMG sure was emoting during her little sit-down with Tilly.  I want everyone to take it down a notch and be competent professionals like a good Star Trek crew.

Other than the bizarre "species swap!" thing I like the scenario, I like Book being Han Solo (with Grudge-bacca), I like the crew that's assembled on the planet (Saru, Cubler, Adira), I like the set-up for next episode.  Saru telling Michael that she had to be the one to stay behind to convince Su'Kal had me about to throw my television out the window but for once in my life someone realized that actually, Michael was not the right girl for the job here -- even if it had to be Michael herself who realized it, it was such a breath of fresh air!  And really so was Michael actually showing some quick thinking and doing something, when she pretended to be another program, although she couldn't keep it up for long.

I kind of think the writers put the Georgiou goodbye episode where they did just because they realized that if she was around this episode's whole plot wouldn't work -- this Orion chick is just no match.  I'm glad that Tilly didn't overperform in the captain role, it's more plausible that way.  Her banter was just awful to me, what Star Trek captain has ever showed their leadership capabilities by snarking?  Yet how naturally did it seem like the Disco writers would think that would be how it worked for Tilly?  But since it didn't work, I can at least hope that it was meant to be her insecurity talking, which is what it sure sounded like, "I'm not owned!  I'm not owned!" style.  I did like Book being on hand as an unofficial advisor she could consult without undermining her own authority, or something.

Going back to my Elderly Nerd comparison of this season with Star Control 2, I now feel I must reach even further back into the deepest lore of Ancient Nerdery and say it's actually looking more like the original, Starflight.  It was the Dilithium Planet which reminded me.  It seems, unfortunately, that the reason for The Burn of this show is nowhere near as interesting as that game's version of it -- but then, that was probably the best sci-fi plot twist I've ever seen outside of the Philip K Dick-level literary masters.  Anyway, I'm looking forward to the rest of the season.

[marinw]

22 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

found this episode just so disappointing -- between Tilly's crappy captaining

Poor Tilly. I don't blame her-I blame Suru. I don't like his choice BECUASE I like Tilly so much, and putting her in this situation did her a disservice.

[Ely]

Doug Jones really is a brilliant actor - without all that makeup you can really see how naunced his facial expressions are. It really speaks for him that he manages to carry that through when he is in full Saru-costume.

I guess what annoys me on top of the fact that Tilly was made captain in the first place is how the crew almost aggressively cheers her on. All those reaction shots that are supposed to highlight how clever and funny and witty she is - they just make me roll my eyes. I feel like such a grinch saying this but Disco is really overdoing it with the "we're all family and love each other". At least Georgiu brought some snark.

Not in a million years do I buy Tilly as being starfleet. I appreciate that the characters in Disco are more emotional and flawed - but she's really too much.

I love Culber a lot and Wilson Cruz is an amazing actor but didn't he give the same speech "I have to go down there to save such and such for my sake" when they beamed on the Tikhov?

Book and his love for Grudge makes me quite fond of him, can't deny it.

[KimberStormer]

5 hours ago, Ely said:

I guess what annoys me on top of the fact that Tilly was made captain in the first place is how the crew almost aggressively cheers her on. All those reaction shots that are supposed to highlight how clever and funny and witty she is - they just make me roll my eyes.

Omg yes this exactly.  

[paigow]

On 12/28/2020 at 8:01 AM, marinw said:

Poor Tilly. I don't blame her-I blame Suru.

She could have declined. Now we have to watch McClane  Burnham save the U.S.S. Nakatomi Discovery