S01.E06: The Bloody Truth

[buttersister]

Edgar Ramirez's hair: Does that account for the two quick shots of him in this episode? Does it have it's own Twitter account? If he's not working as a PI for Donald Sutherland in this rumored season 2, I'm out.

[SourK]

4 hours ago, loki310 said:

I have a strange problem. My husband and I started watching this show on On Demand... episode 1. A couple of minutes goes by Hugh Grant is having sex with this short haired woman, takes his curly haired son on a high speed police chase, and Nicole Kidman yells at him on a bridge...he kills the short haired woman.  super intense. Through it all, I’m like - is this the first episode? This feels like we were dropped in the middle of something - are you sure it’s the first episode. He shows me that it’s indeed the first episode according to On Demand. About 15 min in, it fades to black and the credits roll. Whaaaaa?
 

Did On Demand screw me by showing me the ending of a 6 episode series in the 1st episode?? 😡 I don’t want to read through the thread and spoil myself haha if that’s even possible now. 

It sounds like you're describing the last episode, yeah. Maybe On Demand somehow thought you were half way through watching episode 6? It's weird.

[spaceghostess]

On 11/30/2020 at 12:49 AM, Irlandesa said:

In theory, yes, but she explained that away as there was no definitive proof that this was the murder weapon and there was no way to prove it now that it had been washed twice in the dishwasher.

I also have a question that just occurred to me.  While she was on the stand, Grace said that she and her husband met in 2002 while at Harvard University.  So just how old are we supposed to believe these people are?  I know they're probably younger than their ages but 17 years ago (or 18) Hugh Grant was 42 and Nicole Kidman was 35. Even if we're generous to assume they meant grand school, that would mean that Nicole is playing at least 10 years younger than she is and Hugh between 15 and 20 years younger.

Yeah, the whole, “we met in 2002 at college” was so patently ridiculous and distracting, I was forced to fanwank that they were both older grad students at Harvard. I mean, I graduated college in 1993 and am four years younger than NK; my younger son is nearly 10 and I had him at the ripe old age of 39, so this show trying to make me believe Nicole Kidman is younger than I am got on my last middle-aged nerve. Hugh Grant being older would have worked in the plot had they not decided to put them both at Harvard—apparently as undergrads—together. One line about PhD studies would have taken this issue right off the table.

Good grief—between the elaborate backstory I had to create to justify NK’s sus American accent and the age thing, this show made me do way too much work.

ETA: A-ha! In reading through the thread (which I should have done completely before posting), I now realize that I should have made the connection between Grace’s PhD from Harvard —which I guess was mentioned when she testified but I wasn’t paying attention?—and her meeting Jonathan at Harvard. So that would be proof that they maybe were both there for graduate studies and hence in their 30s and 40s, respectively. Okay, Show; you’re off the hook for this one.

Edited December 2, 2020 by spaceghostess
I = a doofus

[txhorns79]

23 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Generally, Either spouse may assert the spousal privilege. But the privilege protects only “communications.” Statements that are not communications between the spouses, such as observations by one spouse about the conduct of the other, are not privileged. The prosecution in this case would and should have called Grace as a witness in regard to what she knew of what happened and when, and of course about the call she made to 911, all of which could be totally outside of anything that Jonathan said to her. "I got home at x time and my husband got home at y time" would not be the subject of spousal privilege.

They probably would not have called her unless it was essentially a situation like they had here where they knew she would be hostile towards her husband, and was offering them testimony to sink him.  The 911 call testimony only was effective because of testimony Grace gave on direct.  It would have been a big risk to call her otherwise. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

  1 HOUR AGO, MAYSIE SAID:

That's not true. I've seen him do American, pretty well, and in Impromptu, he played Frederich Chopin with a Polish accent. In his latest, The Gentlemen, he's British but with an incredible cockney type accent that sounds unlike any Hugh Grant I've even seen. Am I a Hugh Grant fan? I guess you could say so. LOL 

Sure.  That's fine.  But I've seen him say this again and again in interviews, not making things up for kicks.  In my opinion he's good at anything he attempts. But does he ENJOY doing those things, not necessarily.  Impromptu is 30 years ago.  I'm sure he has more of a say in his roles these days.

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/hugh-grant-wont-take-on-roles-requiring-an-american-accent-heres-why.html/

Edited December 2, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[qtpye]

12 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Oh Jesus, so the family that produced a sociopath/psychopath takes custody of an innocent infant? His 90 year old mother is going to raise her? It seemed that his only sibling "Katie the Kitten" is long dead. 

It would actually make more sense for Grace to adopt Teresa since she's Henry's sister. Either way, that poor baby is doomed. DOOMED, I TELLS YA!

Or Sylvia could adopt her. Nothing better than having another kid to alternately criticize publicly/ignore in private. Or maybe not. See "doomed" above.

Spoiler

In the book, the family is supposed to be much more sympathetic and Jonathan has a brother that is supposedly a good guy (not that Grace is any good judge of character). I do agree that Jonathan's mother came off absolutely bizarre in the show and makes me think the whole family has a screw loose...that poor baby.

The two things that I got from this series are:

• Hugh Grant can play an excellent psychopath/sociopath (do not know the correct term)
• Nicole Kidman looks really good in long coats.

I think the most shocking part was that Grace was supposed to be some sort of brilliant woman (notice the scenes of her playing chess with Donald Sutherland) that can not be easily fooled.

Unfortunately, Grace came off as a bit of a moron. She reminded me of one of those rich people who thinks they are smart but their parents pay for their admission to elite schools with big donations.  I was waiting for her to find out that she actually totally failed all her classes or something, because she just seemed so clueless.

I guess I should just be happy that since this is a David E. Kelley joint, that all the female attorneys were not wearing micro mini skirts, heels, and halter tops.

[RealReality]

4 hours ago, buttersister said:

Edgar Ramirez's hair: Does that account for the two quick shots of him in this episode? Does it have it's own Twitter account? If he's not working as a PI for Donald Sutherland in this rumored season 2, I'm out.

Season 2?  I thought the whole draw of the show is that it was a limited series?

[buttersister]

29 minutes ago, RealReality said:

a limited series

Me, too. But I've been seeing chatter on social media that there's talk of it. Better back up the salt truck. LOL!

[formerlyfreedom]

39 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Season 2?  I thought the whole draw of the show is that it was a limited series?

 

7 minutes ago, buttersister said:

Me, too. But I've been seeing chatter on social media that there's talk of it. Better back up the salt truck. LOL!

There’s a topic now to discuss the potential of a second season - Beyond Being Undone. Should they have one? My vote is HELLA-NO, but they did get a lot of eyes on this show, and never underestimate the lure of the almighty dollar.

 

[loki310]

5 hours ago, SourK said:

It sounds like you're describing the last episode, yeah. Maybe On Demand somehow thought you were half way through watching episode 6? It's weird.

Oh man. How annoying. I don’t even know how that happened! I kept thinking it was an extended flashback scene.  Stupid Spectrum! Thanks for confirming... now I’ve got an extra 5 hours and 45 minutes of my life back. 🙄 Yay? 

[SassMouthin]

Well, Grace knew from the very beginning after finding his cell phone in the drawer. The whole story was like a chess game, her poker face as every move she made was deliberately to keep her family safe but nab her husband for the crime at the same time. The director made EVERYone look guilty by episode 4, highly entertaining. I didn't like how they threw in the line "he never made it to school" and exactly at what point did she know that? And Nicole, honey, you are one face lift away from looking like the joker. Please please don't go that route.

[Rickster]

2 hours ago, SassMouthin said:

Well, Grace knew from the very beginning after finding his cell phone in the drawer.

This reminds me, we never got a good explanation of the fake trip to Cleveland or the hidden cell phone. The final episode made it look like Jonathan went to Elena to warn her off harassing his family, and it spontaneously turned into murder. If it wasn’t pre-planned, why leave your phone behind?

[Ashforth]

7 hours ago, loki310 said:

Oh man. How annoying. I don’t even know how that happened! I kept thinking it was an extended flashback scene.  Stupid Spectrum! Thanks for confirming... now I’ve got an extra 5 hours and 45 minutes of my life back. 🙄 Yay? 

It seems that your On Demand has more empathy and compassion than a sociopath! LOL. But really, the first three episodes of this show were good! IMO, it fell apart after that. 

[Snapdragon]

5 hours ago, Rickster said:

This reminds me, we never got a good explanation of the fake trip to Cleveland or the hidden cell phone. The final episode made it look like Jonathan went to Elena to warn her off harassing his family, and it spontaneously turned into murder. If it wasn’t pre-planned, why leave your phone behind?

He came back to the apartment after killing Elena (for some post-murder sex, I guess and to change clothes) and when he left again early in the morning (after saying good-bye to Henry at like 5am) that's when he left the cellphone behind.  

[RedInk]

49 minutes ago, Snapdragon said:

He came back to the apartment after killing Elena (for some post-murder sex, I guess and to change clothes) and when he left again early in the morning (after saying good-bye to Henry at like 5am) that's when he left the cellphone behind.  

It is confusing, though, that he had preplanned the lie about the conference...right? Did he make those things up regularly, just to convince Grace he was employed? And he would actually hide out with Elena? And it was dumb luck that the conference lie coincided with the murder? I also don’t remember how the 500k was accounted for, but I assume it was rent fir the art studio.

[TVMovieBuff]

David E Kelley said there is no second season. But he also said, that they weren't planning a second season for Big Little Lies, but it wound up happening. I don't think The Undoing lends itself to a sequel though. 

Hugh Grrant said one of the ickiest aspects is, that Jonathan had sex with Elena, then went right after to have sex with Grace. But to people who say a guy his age couldn't do it twice that quickly, he said they are correct. Hugh also opined that Jonathan had many affairs (his take on the character) not just a one-off, and who knows, one of them could have been Sylvia. 

Some things we just aren't going to know a reason for, or an outcome. Just like life.

I thought it was a really good outcome to the series. To me, it felt obvious that Jonathan was the killer. For me it was a "how-dunnit, or a why-dunnit" rather than a who-dunnit. i never thought of Grace throwing Jonathan to the dogs. Having Sylvia feed the DA the info, that was great.

[Bluesky]

On 12/1/2020 at 9:44 AM, Ashforth said:

Oh Jesus, so the family that produced a sociopath/psychopath takes custody of an innocent infant? His 90 year old mother is going to raise her? It seemed that his only sibling "Katie the Kitten" is long dead. 

It would actually make more sense for Grace to adopt Teresa since she's Henry's sister. Either way, that poor baby is doomed. DOOMED, I TELLS YA!

Or Sylvia could adopt her. Nothing better than having another kid to alternately criticize publicly/ignore in private. Or maybe not. See "doomed" above.

Jonathan’s brother adopted her not his mother.  Is a psychopath produced or born that way?  

[LoveLeigh]

I never believed it was Fernando. He was too caring, too kind. He was a good father to Miguel and he seemed sincere when he said he would try to love the baby girl. He emotionally supported Miguel when he took the stand. And wow! Edan Alexander is a young actor to watch! He did a phenomenal job as Miguel. 

Of course, all the arguing that his son heard and told a teacher about was horrible.... but (I realize this is just a TV show, I am just elaborating on the plot) there was a grandmother at the trial so maybe she would step in and help raise the children. 

The sad part is: will Miguel be able to continue at Reardon since the tuition payments probably will stop and what about the portrait Elena painted of Grace? Why did she do that? 

18 hours ago, buttersister said:

Edgar Ramirez's hair: Does that account for the two quick shots of him in this episode? Does it have it's own Twitter account? If he's not working as a PI for Donald Sutherland in this rumored season 2, I'm out.

I have a crush on Edgar Ramirez. 

[TVMovieBuff]

4 minutes ago, Bluesky said:

Jonathan’s brother adopted her not his mother.  Is a psychopath produced or born that way?  

They are born that way. There is no curing a true socio-psychopath. 

[LoveLeigh]

10 minutes ago, TVMovieBuff said:

David E Kelley said there is no second season. But he also said, that they weren't planning a second season for Big Little Lies, but it wound up happening. I don't think The Undoing lends itself to a sequel though. 

The Undoing could go the way that The Sinner did. Keep the main detectives but give them another totally unrelated murder to investigate. 

[carrps]

3 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

He came back to the apartment after killing Elena (for some post-murder sex, I guess and to change clothes) and when he left again early in the morning (after saying good-bye to Henry at like 5am) that's when he left the cellphone behind.  

Well, he needed access to cleaning supplies to spritz his tuxedo before dropping it off at the dry cleaners on his way upstate.

 

33 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

The sad part is: will Miguel be able to continue at Reardon since the tuition payments probably will stop and what about the portrait Elena painted of Grace? Why did she do that? 

Since we didn't get much insight into Elena's character, I'm guessing they wanted to imply she actually admired Grace and looked up to her as someone who was kind to her? Y'know, the way peons admire their betters so much. They wanted us to think Elena really did see Grace as a kind of sister-wife? Dunno. That's all I got.

 

[LoveLeigh]

11 hours ago, carrps said:

Since we didn't get much insight into Elena's character, I'm guessing they wanted to imply she actually admired Grace and looked up to her as someone who was kind to her? Y'know, the way peons admire their betters so much. They wanted us to think Elena really did see Grace as a kind of sister-wife? Dunno. That's all I got.

 

Elena was an interesting woman. I never understood why she sat in front of the school all day instead of going to her studio and working on her art. I would have liked to have seen more scenes with Elena and Jonathan prior to the murder. He loved her? He used her for sex. Jonathan was an animal: a truly sick creature. The way he murdered Elena, the way he acted in the car with his son.... how could Grace, a psychologist, not have seen any signs in 15 years? Dr. Rosenfeld gave Grace a full profile of Jonathan and she lived with him and never saw that side to him? Bad writing. 

Was she using him for money? Why would she fall in love with that creep? Fernando is really good looking. I don't know. There are many unanswered questions. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by LoveLeigh

[Aqua]

1 hour ago, LoveLeigh said:

The sad part is: will Miguel be able to continue at Reardon since the tuition payments probably will stop and what about the portrait Elena painted of Grace? Why did she do that? 

 

Miguel is a scholarship student. At the fundraiser they mentioned that the auction funds these programs.

She painted the portrait because she was weirdly obsessed with Grace.

[LoveLeigh]

Grace never picked up the phone the night of the murder when Elena was calling her. I wonder what Elena wanted. I see that as an important incident because had Grace picked up it might have changed the course of what happened although then Jonathan would have been furious and in his sick head had a reason to kill Elena: the old "I will tell your wife" thing.  

Why am I reminded of how Tony turned on Gloria Trillo when she said that. 

[Ashforth]

59 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

I have a crush on Edgar Ramirez. 

I know, right? He is hot hot hot and probably a good actor even though his talent was wasted here. The show really fucked over his detective character with its poor writing.

23 minutes ago, carrps said:

Well, he needed access to cleaning supplies to spritz his tuxedo before dropping it off at the dry cleaners on his way upstate.

Since we didn't get much insight into Elena's character, I'm guessing they wanted to imply she actually admired Grace and looked up to her as someone who was kind to her? Y'know, the way peons admire their betters so much. They wanted us to think Elena really did see Grace as a kind of sister-wife? Dunno. That's all I got.

Funny how we never saw anything about Jonathan's Spray n' Wash spree until the final episode. Grace was shown lying awake in bed. Would it be typical for her privileged husband to do laundry when he got home? Wouldn't she notice that? Plus, it seems that he would have needed to take a shower to wash off the blood and brain matter before he crawled into bed with Grace after he murdered Elena. No indication that he did that.

I have considered that Elena may have truly felt sorry for Grace at being deceived by Jonathan, while at the same time seeing her as a rival. I wish that the character of Elena had been developed to show her as a person and look at her motivations.

58 minutes ago, TVMovieBuff said:

They are born that way. There is no curing a true socio-psychopath. 

I think that some are born that way, but others develop it, usually due to horrific childhood sexual and/or physical abuse.

[carrps]

27 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

Plus, it seems that he would have needed to take a shower to wash off the blood and brain matter before he crawled into bed with Grace after he murdered Elena. No indication that he did that.

Not to mention the sex, uh, secretions.

[Jodithgrace]

Re: Trip to Chicago. Jonathan had probably planned to take Elena to the cabin, which he admitted he had done before. I have no idea what she would have told her husband, or what she told him the other times. But of course, after he killed her, it seemed like a good place to hide temporarily. As for the 500K, i assume that he put that into an account from which he paid himself his regular salary, so Grace wouldn't know he lost his job. He didn't seem to have a plan for what to do when that money ran out, since he obviously couldn't look for a different cancer doctor job after what happened. They kind of left that whole plot hanging. I think that Jonathan may have fallen apart after losing his cushy job, and wasn't thinking too clearly, being desperate to keep Grace and the rest of the family from finding out. Since his job regularly featured conferences, he could schedule time with Elena and get away with it, and had probably done it before. That's all I got.

[Maysie]

23 hours ago, carrps said:

I didn't watch the second season but I've been considering it. I'm no longer considering it. I hated at the very end of the last episode of the first season Kelley showed the police detective watching the moms on the beach and clicking her cigarette lighter (something he added), because he thought they needed closure or something?***

I think I'm in the minority in my Big Little Lies second season hate - I guess they're going with a third season. As much as I liked the first season - the cast, the story - I disliked the second season as much or more. It just felt like they did it to 1) cash in on the success of the first season and 2) to add Meryl Streep to the mix. And unsurprisingly, Meryl Streep ended up being the best thing about the season, but she wasn't enough to salvage what to me was a bad idea (kind of like Daniel Day Lewis in Phantom Thread).

16 hours ago, RealReality said:

Season 2?  I thought the whole draw of the show is that it was a limited series?

Oh good grief. Maybe they'll cast Meryl Streep as Elena's mother who wants revenge.

 

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'm never drawn to shows because they're a "limited series" - LOL - but I do believe that Big Little Lies Season 2 was a disaster.  So many people disagree with me though which is why S2 of this show seems likely.

I know people that won't even bother watching something that only lasts 1 season as well.

Edgar Ramirez was in the movie THE GIRL ON THE TRAIN from 2016.  I liked that movie, so I'd recommend it regardless.

2 hours ago, Maysie said:

I think I'm in the minority in my Big Little Lies second season hate - I guess they're going with a third season. As much as I liked the first season - the cast, the story - I disliked the second season as much or more. It just felt like they did it to 1) cash in on the success of the first season and 2) to add Meryl Streep to the mix.

No, I'm absolutely with you.  The book that BLL S1 was based on was great too.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[caracas1914]

I guess what annoyed me about the whole resolution was that Jonathan was simply a bat-shit crazy sociopath and that Elena was a bat-shit crazy over possessive mistress.

That was it.

 

[chediavolo]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:26 PM, MagnaMater said:

My favorite part was in the beginning of the episode and the lawyer was telling Nicole to not show any emotion. No problem!

I can barely watch her anymore. Every time I look at her all I see is mannequin or, blowup doll. She is scary looking. 

[Bluesky]

On 12/2/2020 at 6:02 AM, Rickster said:

This reminds me, we never got a good explanation of the fake trip to Cleveland or the hidden cell phone. The final episode made it look like Jonathan went to Elena to warn her off harassing his family, and it spontaneously turned into murder. If it wasn’t pre-planned, why leave your phone behind?

He said he fled to upstate New York in a “panic”.  He probably left his phone so they couldn’t track him down.   
 

For the Cleveland lie, maybe he was planning to take Elena on a trip before he decided to bash her head in.  

[MicheleinPhilly]

This definitely worked better as a binge for me but man oh man, what wasted potential. As the final credits rolled I just kept saying, "That's it? No, really, that's it???" 

[lightninggirl]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:45 PM, saoirse said:

I did find the actress portraying Haley to be quite good as well - especially that last scene she had, when she told Jonathan it was his fault for not getting rid of the hammer. Not saying I LIKE the character, but she had a damn good performance in the series.

I loved her! I thought that she was T'Nia Miller at first, who played Mrs. Grose in "The Haunting of Bly Manor." They are both awesome and I could listen to them talk all day.

God, Nicole Kidman running down that bridge screaming for her kid/husband was just frightening. Her face could barely emote anything - her mouth has basically become the Joker's. 😳

[txhorns79]

21 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

I guess what annoyed me about the whole resolution was that Jonathan was simply a bat-shit crazy sociopath and that Elena was a bat-shit crazy over possessive mistress.

I don't think that Elena was crazy.  I think she was pretty calculating.  Her actions were meant to unsettle Grace, presumably leading up to a point where Grace would confront Elena and Elena would confess.  Elena's mistake was that she was playing games with someone who was capable of brutally murdering her.

Quote

Why would she fall in love with that creep?

 

It is not unheard of for patients (or with young children, the parents of patients) to fall for their doctors.  When he wants to be, Jonathan can be very charming, and you add to that that he helping to save the life of Elena's child, I could see how Elena would become enamored. 

[caracas1914]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't think that Elena was crazy.  I think she was pretty calculating.  Her actions were meant to unsettle Grace, presumably leading up to a point where Grace would confront Elena and Elena would confess.  Elena's mistake was that she was playing games with someone who was capable of brutally murdering her.

 

Didn't she paint a portrait of Grace in her studio?  It seemed she thought that she had made a connection with Grace and appreciated Grace's kindness.  All these red herrings that could interpreted so many ways.  Perhaps the problem was that while Matilde de Angelis played the character as high strung / overwrought  she certainly didn't come across as insincere in her dealings with Grace at all to me.   In Elena's mind maybe  everything was going to be resolved with them being some great big extended family, which sure seems delusional bat shit crazy to me.

The way Elena was used as a prop, with the men hovering around her at the benefit because she was this irresistible object of desire, and the women uncomfortably fixated on her breastfeeding, (Sylvia grudgingly admiring her breasts)  and the full frontal nudity while  confronting Grace at the gym; it seems in 2020 things really haven't changed much, as long as you clothe it under psychological thriller.  

 

 

[carrps]

15 minutes ago, caracas1914 said:

The way Elena was used as a prop, with the men hovering around her at the benefit because she was this irresistible object of desire, and the women uncomfortably fixated on her breastfeeding, (Sylvia grudgingly admiring her breasts)  and the full frontal nudity while  confronting Grace at the gym; it seems in 2020 things really haven't changed much, as long as you clothe it under psychological thriller.  

This bothered me a lot. Elena's character was used as a prop and little else.

[nexxie]

Just binged this series and can’t get over Nicole Kidman’s one-expression portrayal - is her face too frozen to move these days? A staring cardboard cutout would have sufficed for many scenes.

Really enjoyed the street scenes and camera work.

[Cheezwiz]

On 12/2/2020 at 4:33 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Edgar Ramirez was in the movie THE GIRL ON THE TRAIN from 2016.  I liked that movie, so I'd recommend it regardless.

Oooh. I skipped that movie because of the mediocre reviews. Didn't know he was in it -maybe I'll check it out. He was my one fun discovery from watching this series. He is yummy.

In summation, I don't regret watching the show - despite plot holes big enough to send a cruise ship through, I thoroughly enjoyed some of the performances, and it did keep me guessing. It was glossy but the writing wasn't quite up to the high level of some other thriller series that I've seen.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Cheezwiz

[Ms Blue Jay]

48 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

Oooh. I skipped that movie because of the mediocre reviews. Didn't know he was in it -maybe I'll check it out. He was my one fun discovery from watching this series. He is yummy.

I thought that the critics were unfair towards the movie, because it's a genre film.  It was a faithful adaptation of the book in my opinion.  And Emily Blunt was nominated for a SAG and a BAFTA and deservedly so, I thought.  I would have nominated her for the Oscar.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[RealReality]

On 12/2/2020 at 1:23 PM, carrps said:

Well, he needed access to cleaning supplies to spritz his tuxedo before dropping it off at the dry cleaners on his way upstate.

 

Spray n' Wash really missed a product placement opportunity. 

"So good, no one will know you just murdered your mistress with a sculpting hammer!"

On 12/4/2020 at 9:59 AM, txhorns79 said:

I don't think that Elena was crazy.  I think she was pretty calculating.  Her actions were meant to unsettle Grace, presumably leading up to a point where Grace would confront Elena and Elena would confess.  Elena's mistake was that she was playing games with someone who was capable of brutally murdering her.

Thats the thing, how can we really ever know since we really only ever saw Elena through someone else's eyes.  I don't think we ever saw her alone or got her point of view except when she was being murdered.   For this show she was an object, but I don't know if that was a conscious decision.  

[Pestilentia]

Quote

Well we certainly know one thing for sure...Grace probably wont be getting a bump in clients after this, the shrink who didn't notice her husband was a sociopath.  

 

I think it is a terrible mistake to think that all psychologists and/or psychiatrists are some sort of all-seeing, all knowing ubermensch with infinite insight into each and every person they meet or even know on a personal level. 

They have training, yes, but they are still imperfect humans who experience denial and misplaced trust and poor judgment in personal relationships. They certainly are not immune to the foibles of humans. They make bad decisions and have failed marriages and make all the other mistakes the rest of us make. Within a family dynamic we very often see what we want to see and turn a blind eye to things that upset the order of our own personal existence. We explain away problems fifteen different ways rather than face up to what is glaringly obvious to others. An education doesn't make one immune to that.

[Ashforth]

4 hours ago, RealReality said:

Thats the thing, how can we really ever know since we really only ever saw Elena through someone else's eyes.  I don't think we ever saw her alone or got her point of view except when she was being murdered.   For this show she was an object, but I don't know if that was a conscious decision.  

I don't see how it could be anything but a conscious decision by the showrunners. Maybe they meant for it to make Elena mysterious. For me, the end result was that the character was a muddled mess. I wanted to know more about her and her motivations. I feel strongly that the actress was exploited with the gym nudity and sex scenes.

I did think that the breastfeeding scene had its place in the story. It was symbolic of every aspect of Elena's explosive entry into Grace's life.

40 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

I think it is a terrible mistake to think that all psychologists and/or psychiatrists are some sort of all-seeing, all knowing ubermensch with infinite insight into each and every person they meet or even know on a personal level. 

They have training, yes, but they are still imperfect humans who experience denial and misplaced trust and poor judgment in personal relationships. They certainly are not immune to the foibles of humans. They make bad decisions and have failed marriages and make all the other mistakes the rest of us make. Within a family dynamic we very often see what we want to see and turn a blind eye to things that upset the order of our own personal existence. We explain away problems fifteen different ways rather than face up to what is glaringly obvious to others. An education doesn't make one immune to that.

I agree with everything you said, but the fact remains that one's spouse being a sociopathic murderer isn't a great selling point for anyone's business services, but more so for a mental health professional.

[qtpye]

On 12/4/2020 at 1:22 PM, caracas1914 said:

Didn't she paint a portrait of Grace in her studio?  It seemed she thought that she had made a connection with Grace and appreciated Grace's kindness.  All these red herrings that could interpreted so many ways.  Perhaps the problem was that while Matilde de Angelis played the character as high strung / overwrought  she certainly didn't come across as insincere in her dealings with Grace at all to me.   In Elena's mind maybe  everything was going to be resolved with them being some great big extended family, which sure seems delusional bat shit crazy to me.

The way Elena was used as a prop, with the men hovering around her at the benefit because she was this irresistible object of desire, and the women uncomfortably fixated on her breastfeeding, (Sylvia grudgingly admiring her breasts)  and the full frontal nudity while  confronting Grace at the gym; it seems in 2020 things really haven't changed much, as long as you clothe it under psychological thriller.  

 

 

 

23 hours ago, carrps said:

This bothered me a lot. Elena's character was used as a prop and little else.

It is almost like they were saying that if Elena was fat and dumpy, no one would care she got murdered. It kind of reminds me of Victorian novels in which the main defining point of a female character is that she is "breath takingly beautiful".

It would actually be refreshing to have had more to define the victim than "Wow, she is hot" but David E Kelley is probably not the guy to do it.

[Razzberry]

On 12/2/2020 at 12:09 PM, Ashforth said:

Funny how we never saw anything about Jonathan's Spray n' Wash spree until the final episode. Grace was shown lying awake in bed. Would it be typical for her privileged husband to do laundry when he got home?

I suspect it wasn't the first time Jonathan had to Spray n' Wash his laundry for various body fluids.  He could always say it was a patient and Grace would have bought it.

[Ms Blue Jay]

7 hours ago, Ashforth said:

I don't see how it could be anything but a conscious decision by the showrunners. Maybe they meant for it to make Elena mysterious. For me, the end result was that the character was a muddled mess. I wanted to know more about her and her motivations. I feel strongly that the actress was exploited with the gym nudity and sex scenes.

Elena was also objectified again and again as they showed the crime scene AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.  It was so gratuitous in my opinion.  My biggest complaint of the series.

[carrps]

36 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Elena was also objectified again and again as they showed the crime scene AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.  It was so gratuitous in my opinion.  My biggest complaint of the series.

Yes, and they kept pushing us to think she had some kind of mental issues. Like it's o.k. to kill her because she was messing with people. The "bitches be crazy" defense. Hate.

[Milburn Stone]

On 11/30/2020 at 5:39 PM, iMonrey said:

Yes I think it's safe to say that her career as a psychologist is over, unless she moves to another country. 

You make me realize that the thing that really put the nail in the career coffin was her testimony. Just being the wife of a bad guy can be forgiven; maybe you know he's guilty, but you love the big lug. She never said a word until her testimony about whether she considered him guilty or innocent. But that testimony...I get that it was all part of a clever plot she devised to get Jonathan convicted. But she had to know that the cost was signing her own career's death certificate.

Or else she was just stupid.

[Ashforth]

2 hours ago, carrps said:

Yes, and they kept pushing us to think she had some kind of mental issues. Like it's o.k. to kill her because she was messing with people. The "bitches be crazy" defense. Hate.

Let's think about this... who kept saying that Elena was obsessed and mentally ill? Jonathan! So we're supposed to accept that if he said it, it must be true? Please. I think that Fernando finally acknowledged that Elena had previously had some kind of counseling or treatment for her mental health, but it was left ambiguous. I mean, did she have situational depression because her child had cancer, or PPD, or maybe an anxiety disorder? Or was she a flaming psychopath? 

In real life (I know, I know) Elena's entire lifetime of medical records would have been obtained by the prosecution and defense. Putting the crime victim on trial is a time-honored tradition in our legal system. So this is really just another instance of the show leaving things out for whatever reason.

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

You make me realize that the thing that really put the nail in the career coffin was her testimony. Just being the wife of a bad guy can be forgiven; maybe you know he's guilty, but you love the big lug. She never said a word until her testimony about whether she considered him guilty or innocent. But that testimony...I get that it was all part of a clever plot she devised to get Jonathan convicted. But she had to know that the cost was signing her own career's death certificate.

Or else she was just stupid.

I'll vote for stupid. Daddy can buy you a degree from Harvard, but he can't buy you a brain.

[Tachi Rocinante]

On 11/30/2020 at 6:44 AM, Corgi-ears said:

Grace: Put me on the stand! I'm a reliable narrator!

I thought this was a cynical "fuck you" from the show's producers to the audience.  I laughed out loud.

To the poster upthread: Occam's Razor wins again.