E01.08: After the Rain

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

Marriage to George’s brother could even become one of happiness and/or contentment for Marina. It happens in arranged marriages all the time. If nothing else, the baby would be raised by George’s family and if Marina ended up wanting to leave to follow her own pursuits, she could leave the kid with the in-laws and know the baby was in good hands. 

They should have waited till the beginning of next season to reveal who Whistledown was. The audience would have loved thinking about the options while the show was on hiatus. On this site alone, there would be a lot of conjecture and interesting discussion.

If Marina were -- not even an evil mercenary, but just a woman of common sense of that period -- she would have instantly and happily accepted Phillip's proposal to marry. To mix pop culture metaphors, it's her one job to marry rich, and tiger, she hit the jackpot! Philip's proposal marked a remarkable last-minute comeback from massive scandal and public embarassment. So what if Philip was only doing it because of messed-up societal notions and (to Marina's way of thinking,) he would soon learn there was no baby? She didn't want to get into just any random marriage with a guy who is doing it just out of sheer obligation, regardless of whether he was good looking and rich. The fact that she rejected the proposal out of hand, with the F's all wondering what was wrong with her, speaks well of her (at least from a modern standpoint). 

This to me also informs her potential marriage to Colin. It wasn't just a question of "ha ha gotcha sucker!" She actually had some level of feelings for him. If she just wanted to hook up with a pocketbook and a decent place in society, she would have taken his ass to Gretna Green and gotten married before it could be determined she wasn't pregnant.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[ursula]

58 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

That is speculation as much as anything.  But she still didn't seem all that emotional about the choice. 

It's not speculation that she didn't attempt another abortion or that she first rejected Sir Phillip's proposal - which as you pointed out was technically better than one to Colin - which she still needed with or without the baby. This is a world where being in a garden alone with a man "spoils" a woman. It doesn't matter if the baby no longer existed. Her reputation was irreparably damaged and her chances in society ruined but she still refused his proposal until the baby was re-introduced into the equation. 

The only thing we know for certain is that it wasn't Marina's first resort, and she only did it after Penelope had ruined not just hers, but the child's chances of living with any form of dignity and acceptance. Penelope didn't know that Marina was going to have an abortion. If we're going with the "naive little girl" Penelope theory (which I don't for the record), Penelope shouldn't even know that abortions were possible.

So Penelope did what she did, believing it would ruin a child's life for perpetuity and not caring because protecting the chance of a future with Colin was more important than the child's future.

 

58 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

please don't accuse everyone taking up for Penelope with "she's fat so it's fine."

It might not be your personal opinion but the argument that Penelope's size makes her automatically sympathetic regardless of her actions has been part of the conversation from the start. 

 

26 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

If Marina were -- not even an evil mercenary, but just a woman of common sense of that period -- she would have instantly and happily accepted Phillip's proposal to marry.

Marina is being at the same time accused of being self-serving for trying to work a marriage with Colin and for not accepting Sir Phillip's proposal.

Edited December 29, 2020 by ursula

[UnoAgain]

All said and done its the writing.. Because on all these boards we've as a community gone back and forth over the choices and the reasons behind them...for me..I'm more upset that the choices they did make weren't fleshed out enough.. Personally the two most glaring are what Daph did to Simon and what Pen did to Marina... Its clear that other options were available.. Some may argue about better or worse... Realistic or not.. But for both the writers chose what they chose but with very little follow-up or repercussions.. I mean they changed up enough of the Daph scenario from the book to let us know they knew it was problematic but then still only center her pain... And for pen fandom can't really seem to agree on anything from that front.. Jealous or protective.. Naive or worldly.. Villain or great friend... All I do know is that Marina and Colin suffered to varying degrees and while ( maybe with some performative sadness)  pen walks away clean... And that leaves me with questions and a bad taste in my mouth.. Don't think that's what the writers were going for

[ursula]

1 minute ago, UnoAgain said:

Personally the two most glaring are what Daph did to Simon and what Pen did to Marina... Its clear that other options were available.. Some may argue about better or worse... Realistic or not.. But for both the writers chose what they chose but with very little follow-up or repercussions..

What makes it especially gross is that these are both instances of white women screwing over people of color and walking away with everything they want. I'm not sure whether this was what they were going for with the diversity casting, but boy are the optics bad. 

[UnoAgain]

7 minutes ago, ursula said:

What makes it especially gross is that these are both instances of white women screwing over people of color and walking away with everything they want. I'm not sure whether this was what they were going for with the diversity casting, but boy are the optics bad. 

I'm even ok if they wanted to explore that... I don't mind ppl getting screwed over or odd choices by characters as long as its at least kinda explained and disected... The choices are obvi made for drama.. And OK cool drama... But you can't screw someone over without at least someone getting mad... I mean.. At the extreme least.. Didn't marina or mama Featherington WONDER how whistledown found out?...  We just get marina devestated then her attempt to abort and then she's with Daph... I mean its almost silly that pen wasn't suspected.. Unless were just going with marina was in a daze

[RachelKM]

36 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

This to me also informs her potential marriage to Colin. It wasn't just a question of "ha ha gotcha sucker!" She actually had some level of feelings for him. If she just wanted to hook up with a pocketbook and a decent place in society, she would have taken his ass to Gretna Green and gotten married before it could be determined she wasn't pregnant.

Believing there was no baby held out the possibility of marrying for love with a man who would not reject her for not being a virgin or at least she might be able to conceal that fact.  Finding someone to marry her knowing she was pregnant was almost impossible out side of a man who felt a familial obligation.  But the possibility of finding love in the future or living simply, if alone, was an option minus a child to raise.  That was a choice she was willing to make for herself with her renewed faith in love.   

She said she liked Colin.  That wasn't in dispute.  But she was also willing to trap him, trick him, and potentially crush his heart when he realized the truth (which, again, he would have).  So I'm not certain that she "had feelings for him" so much as liked him well enough and trusted he would provide for her and her child no matter what.  She found that with Sir Phillip too and in this case, he wasn't being lied to.  I actually appreciated her pragmatic approach.  

I do not intend my defense of Penelope to be an indictment of Marina.  She made a choice that was what she believed had the best chance of providing a safe and at least not totally miserable future.  But wanting Colin as a man, much less loving him, didn't seem to be part of her motivation.

21 minutes ago, ursula said:

It's not speculation that she didn't attempt another abortion or that she first rejected Sir Phillip's proposal - which as you pointed out was technically better than one to Colin - which she still needed with or without the baby.

Again, abortion potions were highly risky and as was throwing yourself down stairs.  You were as likely to cause yourself permanent or even lethal injury as you were to successfully abort.  And she likely would have had to ask someone for a suggested method.  This would not have been part of her botany instruction. So she either didn't know how before or she had contemplated it sufficiently to seek a notion of how to create such a potion.  

And yes, as a ruined woman, society would have been an issue.  But she had resumed her romantic ideals by the time she received the initial proposal from Sir Philip.  And she did marry when she realized she was still pregnant.  We don't know what she would have done if she miscarried before securing a proposal from Colin.  But the situation as she understood it when she turned down Sir Philip was not similar to her situation when she was trying to marry Colin nor was her faith in love.

15 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

I'm more upset that the choices they did make weren't fleshed out enough..

I do agree with this.  I sincerely hope that if/when we get a Whistledown reveal, Penelope is confronted with the choices she made up to and including to out Marina's pregnancy.  As much as I have argued that I understand it, it had consequences and she meddled in Colin and Marina's lives.  Whether it was the best decision for Colin is for him to decide and that Marina had an ultimately positive result is immaterial to what Penelope did since she couldn't have known there such a possibility. 

I want her to acknowledge that she made a decision and it had fall out.  I would also like to hear her reasons and how she saw her options.

ETA

2 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

Didn't marina or mama Featherington WONDER how whistledown found out?

They might have. But gossip usually spread through servants from house to house.*  If Lady W, whoever she was, had some informants, she could learn it from a maid who noticed she had been letting out Marina's stays for months, overheard one of the conversations between Lady F and Marina, or any other number of ways. 

*See the word of mouth spreading of Lord Berbrooke's abandonment of his pregnant maid. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by RachelKM

[UnoAgain]

3 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I want her to acknowledge that she made a decision and it had fall out.  I would also like to hear her reasons and how she saw her options.

Zachtly...  Do I have ways I wish certain scenarios play  out... Course.. But if we get explanations and reasoning.. Consequences and movement forward... I'm good with that 

[ursula]

1 minute ago, UnoAgain said:

I'm even ok if they wanted to explore that... I don't mind ppl getting screwed over or odd choices by characters as long as its at least kinda explained and disected... The choices are obvi made for drama.. And OK cool drama... But you can't screw someone over without at least someone getting mad... I mean.. At the extreme least.. Didn't marina or mama Featherington WONDER how whistledown found out?...  We just get marina devestated then her attempt to abort and then she's with Daph... I mean its almost silly that pen wasn't suspected.. Unless were just going with marina was in a daze

Well the optics are still part of the problem because the narrative is protecting these perpetuators. Daphne doesn't apologize to Simon for what she did

Spoiler

which is a departure from the books,

and it's entirely framed as in a pro-feminist narrative of Daphne taking charge of her life. 

Penelope

Spoiler

, even without knowledge of the future books,

gets to keep her nose clean to all parties. Colin apologizes to her, and takes her advice, showing the experience has made him grow to appreciate her. Marina apologizes to her, encourages her in her pursuit of Colin and overall leaves the household thinking Penelope was wonderful. The blowback on her family is solved by the Duchess's magnamity and Sir Phillip's arrival - which will also help the Fs as they face financial ruin. As Mrs F pointed out - a wealthy husband would be generous to Marina's poor cousins. So everything bad that happened to Marina ended up helping P, and there are absolutely no downsides to it. 

 

2 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

Zachtly...  Do I have ways I wish certain scenarios play  out... Course.. But if we get explanations and reasoning.. Consequences and movement forward... I'm good with that 

If Daphne and Simon are any indication, then I doubt it. I feel that this Marina experience will be Penelope's "teaching moment" about how powerful her influence as Lady W is, and that's it. 

[Auntie Anxiety]

Folks, this is Shondaland. Nothing makes much sense (Izzie and Denny anyone?), everything is for the melodrama, the characters are mostly poorly written shallow idiots and yet, here we are, trying to make a bad cotton candy romance novel into War and Peace. Attempting to figure out the motivations of these characters is like arguing with a crazy person, pointless. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Auntie Anxiety

[Chicago Redshirt]

On a new track:

I know it's great that Eloise helped Pen avoid being outed as Lady W for the moment. But really, wouldn't the detectives still been able to get additional intformation leading to outing Pen? I mean, the people from the printers would have to have seen her in the past and presumably can say "Well, I don't know who Lady Whistledown is exactly, but she's a chubby redhead about yea high." Not to mention that at some point, she is going to have gotten paid, and will have to get paid in the future, and that she is going to have to either go back to the current printer or find some other printer for future editions? 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[UnoAgain]

48 minutes ago, ursula said:

Well the optics are still part of the problem because the narrative is protecting these perpetuators. Daphne doesn't apologize to Simon for what she did

Oh well I agree and that's why I at least want it fleshed out... I'd venture that part of the  reason its hitting some of us the way it is.. Is because its gone basically unnoticed In-universe... An all too sad and common occurrence... Now in my perfect fantasy world these situations wouldn't even happen.. And they def wouldn't happen on my screen... But as they are then at least acknowledge it... This is the type of "tv escapism" that some folks are always clamoring for that scares the shit outta me as it seems to rear its ugly head only when some POC gets wronged or sidelined or pigeonholed.. And if its never addressed ( like the cw throwing almost all its WOC at white men)  it just becomes the norm.. And rarely spoken about again..until it is... Inky to be shouted down with complaints of agendas and ruining said "escapism"

[UnoAgain]

54 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

On a new track:

I know it's great that Eloise helped Pen avoid being outed as Lady W for the moment. But really, wouldn't the detectives still been able to get additional intformation leading to outing Pen? I mean, the people from the printers would have to have seen her in the past and presumably can say "Well, I don't know who Lady Whistlebottom is exactly, but she's a chubby redhead about yea high." Not to mention that at some point, she is going to have gotten paid, and will have to get paid in the future, and that she is going to have to either go back to the current printer or find some other printer for future editions? 

I guess after this close call and writing about  it.  She switches it up... 

For real I thought eloise had figured it out.. But then she started with Madame Delacroix... Which I guess is a good choice.. But right before she jumped to Madame D( I know I know but that's her initial)  I thought it was outing pen 

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

I do not intend my defense of Penelope to be an indictment of Marina.  She made a choice that was what she believed had the best chance of providing a safe and at least not totally miserable future.  But wanting Colin as a man, much less loving him, didn't seem to be part of her motivation.

Admittedly I blew through this series is about three days so I could be missing some details or nuance.  But I got the impression that if Marina could not have George then if she had to marry she wanted to marry at least someone she thought she could love.  It was why she was being so recalcitrant about picking just anyone regardless of her circumstances.  She had a ton of suitors, good looking, young and rich she could have picked from -- she didn't really need that horrible old man Mrs. F picked for her.  She was still hesitant about Phillip even when she realized she was still pregnant, her abiding question to Mrs. F at the end about how to live without love felt very telling.

But she was willing to marry Colin who had given her the googly eyes before the pregnancy stuff went down.  So the way I read it, out of everyone she had at least an inkling of some affection for him because he was the only one she had even considered at all.

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, DearEvette said:

But she was willing to marry Colin who had given her the googly eyes before the pregnancy stuff went down.  So the way I read it, out of everyone she had at least an inkling of some affection for him because he was the only one she had even considered at all.

She said she liked him.  She also said she believed he would be kind.  I don't recall her saying she felt or intended to feel anything more. And having lots of callers isn't the same as having a lot of genuine prospects for marriage.  Colin was smitten, she liked him, and he was a third son who was less likely to have aspirations of a higher marriage.

But again, even if she believed she may someday be able to return his love, she was willing to seduce him to force his hand, she did trick him to the point of almost eloping implying to him that she felt more than she did which led to his proposal. And she had to know that realizing she lied was likely to affect their relationship whatever she thought she might be able to feel for him.

[Chicago Redshirt]

21 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Admittedly I blew through this series is about three days so I could be missing some details or nuance.  But I got the impression that if Marina could not have George then if she had to marry she wanted to marry at least someone she thought she could love.  It was why she was being so recalcitrant about picking just anyone regardless of her circumstances.  She had a ton of suitors, good looking, young and rich she could have picked from -- she didn't really need that horrible old man Mrs. F picked for her.  She was still hesitant about Phillip even when she realized she was still pregnant, her abiding question to Mrs. F at the end about how to live without love felt very telling.

But she was willing to marry Colin who had given her the googly eyes before the pregnancy stuff went down.  So the way I read it, out of everyone she had at least an inkling of some affection for him because he was the only one she had even considered at all.

To keep the fiction up, she needed one of a few things:

1. Someone who didn't care about her virginity and raising another man's baby (like the old man that Lady F. had fixed her up with)

2. Someone she could dupe into sleeping with her before marriage and yet trust to do the right thing and marry her at some point with the impression that he was under gentlemanly obligation to do so

3. Someone she could get an expedited marriage to so as hide from him and the world that she was already preggers.

4. Someone she could reveal that she was pregnant to and still rely on him to voluntarily ignore the scandal of someone being not just a non-virgin but also with child.

Though she had many admirers, most of them couldn't be counted on to be in any of these categories. She tried to see if Colin was in category 2, but he was too much of a gentleman to sleep with her. And she didn't trust him enough to see that he was really in category 4. 

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, RachelKM said:

She said she liked him.  She also said she believed he would be kind.  I don't recall her saying she felt or intended to feel anything more. And having lots of callers isn't the same as having a lot of genuine prospects for marriage.  Colin was smitten, she liked him, and he was a third son who was less likely to have aspirations of a higher marriage.

But again, even if she believed she may someday be able to return his love, she was willing to seduce him to force his hand, she did trick him to the point of almost eloping implying to him that she felt more than she did which led to his proposal. And she had to know that realizing she lied was likely to affect their relationship whatever she thought she might be able to feel for him.

All true. But it wasn't primarily about her and Colin's relationship but about the future of her child.

[RachelKM]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

All true. But it wasn't primarily about her and Colin's relationship but about the future of her child.

I understood it was, or at least it was about having respectability and security for her and her child.  Living alone as a woman of moderate means (assuming her family released her dowry to her or otherwise provided) would be a reasonable future.  Living alone raising a fatherless child without the benefit of legitimacy would be much harder for her and a really sad option for her child.

I was responding to a post suggesting that she had some romantic preference for Colin as opposed to Sir Philip.  I saw both cases more about security for herself and her child.  When she believed herself no longer pregnant and with her renewed faith in love, she was willing to live as a ruined woman and hope that she would find someone who would love her anyway or, I presume though she didn't expressly say so, live on her own in the absence of such a love.

Living on her own raising a child born out of wedlock was an entirely different prospect for both herself and her child.

Edited December 30, 2020 by RachelKM

[Jess14]

On 12/27/2020 at 11:09 PM, EyewatchTV211 said:

I agree that the show doesn't seem to realize the ugly light it casts considering so many here now hate Penelope while she was generally liked from the books.

I’m curious about this as well. Are we as viewers, supposed to like Pen now that we know she’s Lady W? I don’t think she’s the worst person in the world, but I no longer like her. I also have a hard time reconciling her character, which is portrayed as a naive, sweet girl with Lady W, who seems quite malicious. The hit against Marina was as mean-spirited as it could possibly be, and I don’t see her as a good friend to Colin now. I feel like the character is in a corner, unless the show wants her to be a villain. 

Also, as someone who has not read the books, I have no lingering affection for the character, and it seems like some of the defense of her actions here is based on her being a beloved character from the books. 

Overall however, I loved the show. I agree that Daphne/Simon are problematic in many ways, but I still enjoyed them. Honestly, I’ll take the Duke of Hastings on my tv screen any day, all day lol! 

 

[ursula]

45 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

Also, as someone who has not read the books, I have no lingering affection for the character, and it seems like some of the defense of her actions here is based on her being a beloved character from the books.

I think it’s this, and sympathy for her being an “unattractive” character which makes people code her as an underdog even though in reality, she has agency and privilege that Marina lacks. Also while Marina was the worst person she hit, Lady W has been making snide digs at Daphne and the Bridgertons, are supposed friends, from the first episode. The juxtaposition between her sweetness to Eloise’s family (“can I play with my friend?”) versus Lady W’s maliciousness only makes sense if her innocent personae is an act.

[norcalgal]

On 12/26/2020 at 6:23 PM, Plums said:

my take on Penelope using Lady W to out Marina in a last ditch effort to save Colin when nothing else worked was that she felt horrible about it at the time- looking back at her running to sob in Eloise's arms, which was right before the scandal was published- after we learn she's Lady W casts that moment in a different light- but that she felt she had run out of every other option and became desperate after finding out they were about to elope. But truly and honestly, she absolutely did not exhaust every option before deciding to blow up the whole situation into a scandalous conglomeration that ruined her family and Marina. She should have just told Colin the truth. Boom. Problem solved. If you're gonna expose the secret to literally all of society and ruin your whole family and Marina, and this includes you by association anyway, why would you shy away from telling Colin or at least Eloise the truth so that she could tell Colin if you're too shy or embarrassed to be the one to do it? No scandal, or at least the much smaller scandal of a broken engagement, and Colin can protect himself or confront Marina or choose to marry her anyway with all the facts.   

So I definitely think there was an aspect of immature vindictiveness in choosing to publish it. A part of her wanted to hurt Marina after Marina had hurt her, but she's not a bad person, so she felt terrible about it after the fact, and especially felt horrible after Marina apologized to her and she understood just how horrible Marina's situation is.  

 

On 12/26/2020 at 6:23 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Yes, there is no comparison. Penelope told the truth to protect her friend, while Marina schemed to deceive him. I have some sympathy for both because they are girls in their late teens given no real education about men, but no way in hell is Marina the less culpable person in this situation. Her situation is terrible, but that doesn’t justify every action. 

Penelope did all but beg Marina to choose any man but Colin. Marina not only choose Colin, but then manipulated him into a quick marriage. Marina is the liar and the trickster here.

And her character veered wildly from sweet naïveté that George would come for her and shrewd actions to deceive first the entire Featherington family and then Colin. What is she? Clever or dumb and sweet? 

I wanted to like Marina much more than I did, but the character really suffered from crappy writing. 

 

On 12/26/2020 at 7:54 PM, Door County Cherry said:

I'm part of the Pen is a villain club. Now, a current villain doesn't mean I'll hate her forever but I think she will need punishment and redemption before I can like her again.  Just feeling kind of bad about it this season won't cut it. 

[snip]

Finally, the reason I see her more of a villain than a good friend is that her gossip was very careful to eliminate any options for Marina or Colin.  He had already waived off Penelope's warnings about love so she made 100% sure that everyone knew that Marina was pregnant before she came to London.  By including that detail, she made sure that Colin wouldn't even have the chance to do the noble thing he already stated he would have been willing to do and pretend the child was his. Since she left no room for doubt, she knew there'd be no way his family would have let him go forward marrying her with everyone else knowing the baby wasn't his.  That wasn't protection; that was eliminating the competition by any means necessary.  Did it hurt her prospects?  I don't think she thought she had many to begin with.  I even think she believes her Colin crush to be a fantasy but as long as he's not married, she'd get to keep it longer.   

 

On 12/26/2020 at 10:48 PM, RachelKM said:

[snip]

I didn't recall Penelope being Lady Whistledown or Lady Whistledown being outed at all.  But it's been 13+ years since I read them. Since no one his howling over this, I assume I just forgot.  But, then, I also don't remember Lady Whistledown having so much bite to her words or being quite so harmful to people's reputations.  This show veered more toward Regency Gossip Girl. Still fun, tho.

Put me in the camp that doesn't believe Penelope "outed" Marina due to maliciousness. I think in all of the posts regarding the choices both Pen and Marina made throughout the series, we - the viewers are posting about this through 21st century lenses.

1) In this time period, it is ABSOLUTELY ruinous for a woman to have an out of wedlock child. Marina still held out hope for George to come through but when she got the fabricated letter thinking George disavowed her, I could see her thinking, "Here's this nice, sweet guy who likes me and I could see myself loving him one day. If I marry him, we could have a pretty decent life together, AND my child won't be "outed" as a bastard." So win-win-win for all three (Colin, Marina and her baby).

2) IMO, Penelope should have told Colin in private about Marina's pregnancy and let the chips fall where they may (either he believes her or not, either he still decides to go ahead and marry Marina or not - but it's now on HIM for making choices even though he was given this new information). I didn't view Penelope doing this as: "Aha - if I out Marina now I get a chance with Colin." I choose to view her motives as largely looking out for her childhood friend who she feels protective of and loyal to (compared to feeling same for someone she's only known a few weeks).  Remember, in this period, bloodlines are a huge deal. I think Penelope felt it wasn't right that Colin should have to raise another man's child (unless he knew about it and still chose to do so).

But yeah, the writing for Marina was a little wobbly. At times she did seem mercenary, but other times, she was a sympathetic character who was just caught in a REALLY BAD situation for an unmarried woman.

On 12/27/2020 at 11:21 AM, BlackberryJam said:

Marina delivered the twins maybe a month or so after she was exposed. The London season is only five, maybe six months long. Marina arrived a few weeks or so into the season, which would have say been early April. She’s made her debut, charmed a bunch of suitors, a month goes by and she hasn’t bled, Portia keeps her out of society for a month so for her to give birth in early August (season was over by mid-August) she would have had to have been planning to marry Colin in early July. Say she was giving birth early, at say 35 weeks, Colin would definitely have noticed that she was at least 6 months pregnant with twins on their wedding night. He’s dumb, but not that dumb. 

So was there no such thing as irregular periods in the 19th century?  Why did Mrs. F. and the maid who was washing Marina's sheets immediately thought Marina was pregnant just because she hadn't had a period in a few weeks?!  Or are we supposed to believe they're aware of Marina's menstrual cycle and knew 1) Marina has regular periods; and 2) was due for a period already  [Puh-leeeeeze!]

On 12/28/2020 at 5:29 PM, TheOtherOne said:

She did still have a pressing need to get married, though. She was still ruined. Even if she hadn't still been pregnant at that point, the world knew she had been and wasn't a virgin, which meant she was unlikely to find a decent marriage and still had few options. The brother of the man who'd knocked her up was offering to take care of her. Pregnant or not, she should have taken the offer immediately. His brother was the one who'd ruined her; his family should be the ones taking care of her. Turning down his offer was stupid.

And then, when she realized that she was still pregnant, she still had to be talked into marrying him instead of immediately jumping at the best offer she was ever going to get. Because she didn't wuuuuuuv him. Because she was a selfish, stupid moron.

VERY good point @TheOtherOne. ITA to all of this. Since the whole world now knows she's:

1) not a virgin AND

2) tried to pass off another man's child on the sly, whether Marina was still pregnant or not, she was completely "ruined". How could she still go through life with rose colored glasses *at that point*?  

The scene were she turned down George's brother didn't feel authentic to the time period. 

On the whole, I'm just a sucker for a period drama (esp. set in the same time as Austen novels) so I enjoyed this series. I don't have any favorite character(s) but will watch if there are more seasons to come.

[DearEvette]

30 minutes ago, norcalgal said:

Remember, in this period, bloodlines are a huge deal. I think Penelope felt it wasn't right that Colin should have to raise another man's child (unless he knew about it and still chose to do so).

Not bloodlines necessarily, since there was no way to prove paternity unless a kid came out looking just like the dad or like in a lot of romance novels, comes out with a convenient family birthmark that so happens to appear on the butt of every male heir in the family.  But rather legitimate issue was important.  As long as the husband and wife were married after the baby was born and the husband acknowledged he child, the child was considered legitimate.  Which is another reason why what Penelope did to Marina was so heinous because she not only blew up Marina's chance at marrying Colin, she took away all of Marina's options. Not every marriage was based on love, at that class, many were dynastic to shore up property and wealth.  It isn't impossible to believe that if fertility issues cropped up, people would go to some shady lengths to make sure they did get a child to pass the title onto even if it wasn't from the husband/wife.  Like he old guy who was willing to marry Marina.  He had no heirs so he was willing to take her child and acknowledge it. But that was all done on the down low.  Everything was acceptable if you didn't get caught.

I don't necessarily think that what Penelope did as consciously malicious, but it does take a real lack of empathy and decency to deliberately burn down the life of someone who was already at their lowest and then to only feel bad for yourself.

Women were absolutely at the mercy of the men.  It may seem like she was being needlessly picky, but I actually don't blame Marina for thinking about her life beyond establishing legitimacy of the baby.  Sure, Mrs. F. took her to those slummy places to show her what would happen if she didn't marry, but in fact marriage to some stranger could not guarantee a good quality of life for her.  Once she was married to some dude he had absolute dominion over her.  He could literally do anything he wanted to her and nobody could say anything.  She was right to try to get the best option she could, given the only directive she was given.

[bijoux]

The old guy didn't know about the child, did he? His inspection of Marina’s hips and teeth looked to me like he was checking her as the incubator for his future heir, npt that he knew she already had a bun in the over. I meam, really, how Marina didn't swoon from the romance of that moment, I'll never know. 

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

The old guy didn't know about the child, did he? His inspection of Marina’s hips and teeth looked to me like he was checking her as the incubator for his future heir, npt that he knew she already had a bun in the over. I meam, really, how Marina didn't swoon from the romance of that moment, I'll never know. 

I don't think he knew, but he would not object to her producing an heir so soon after they wed.  She was still early enough at that point to be able to pull off the whole honeymoon baby came 2 months early routine.  

[Megan]

It seemed like everyone's eyes were crazy dilated all the time, it probably has something to do with lighting?  I don't think I have ever noticed that on a tv show before but it was with practically everyone here, most noticeable with people with light eyes.

 

I loved the Queen's wigs!

 

I thought this was very fun, think I will audible the books.

 

[norcalgal]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

Not bloodlines necessarily, since there was no way to prove paternity unless a kid came out looking just like the dad or like in a lot of romance novels, comes out with a convenient family birthmark that so happens to appear on the butt of every male heir in the family.  But rather legitimate issue was important.  As long as the husband and wife were married after the baby was born and the husband acknowledged he child, the child was considered legitimate.  Which is another reason why what Penelope did to Marina was so heinous because she not only blew up Marina's chance at marrying Colin, she took away all of Marina's options. Not every marriage was based on love, at that class, many were dynastic to shore up property and wealth.  It isn't impossible to believe that if fertility issues cropped up, people would go to some shady lengths to make sure they did get a child to pass the title onto even if it wasn't from the husband/wife.  Like he old guy who was willing to marry Marina.  He had no heirs so he was willing to take her child and acknowledge it. But that was all done on the down low.  Everything was acceptable if you didn't get caught.

I don't necessarily think that what Penelope did as consciously malicious, but it does take a real lack of empathy and decency to deliberately burn down the life of someone who was already at their lowest and then to only feel bad for yourself.

Women were absolutely at the mercy of the men.  It may seem like she was being needlessly picky, but I actually don't blame Marina for thinking about her life beyond establishing legitimacy of the baby.  Sure, Mrs. F. took her to those slummy places to show her what would happen if she didn't marry, but in fact marriage to some stranger could not guarantee a good quality of life for her.  Once she was married to some dude he had absolute dominion over her.  He could literally do anything he wanted to her and nobody could say anything.  She was right to try to get the best option she could, given the only directive she was given.

You're right - I should have been more precise in my response.  But back then - and even now - the assumption that any children born from a husband and wife are the natural born children of that man and woman. But IF someone disputes it there would be a scandal.

If we are to believe Colin, he said that had he been told of Marina's pregnancy, he would have claimed her child as his.  Thus, all of Marina's problems would have been solved - legitimacy for her child and she herself wouldn't be ruined. But, say they did marry as intended and Colin didn't know about the baby, after its birth there'd be enough suspicions as to timing that even if HE didn't raise a ruckus, someone in his family might have said something to Colin. Who knows then if Colin would "claim" the child as his?  [I suppose to avoid scandal he'd keep quiet, but at that point, Marina can forget about playing happy families.]  

Yep - being a female absolutely SUCKED for a very, very, very long time in human history not just in the Western world, but pretty much the world over. And in parts of the world today, there still isn't much female liberation.

[norcalgal]

Couple of other thoughts:

We are rightly outraged that women had almost no agency in this time period.  By not telling Colin about her pregnancy, Marina took away Colin's agency to make a fully informed decision. Basically the same thing Simon did to Daphne with his "I can't have children" claim. 

I didn't read any of the books (although I knew about them).  Is it just me, or did anyone else not realize that the Bridgerton siblings all had "alphabet" names, each successive kid having a first name starting with the letter "A" in alphabet order?  Not until Simon said something about a family tradition when his & Daphne's kid was born did the light come on for me.  Now I feel foolish not spotting it. 

[ursula]

1 minute ago, norcalgal said:

Is it just me, or did anyone else not realize that the Bridgerton siblings all had "alphabet" names, each successive kid having a first name starting with the letter "A" in alphabet order?

Lady W mocks them for it in episode 1.

[norcalgal]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

Lady W mocks them for it in episode 1.

Huh, shows you how well I pay attention to the Lady W narration! 

[Growsonwalls]

Well I liked the season finale. I have a feeling that's not the last we see of Siena, because Anthony still seems besotted over her. 

It occurred to me after the show that Simon essentially shows up at Daphne's bedroom in the morning for a booty call after a night of blue balls. 

I kind of wish Daphne and Simon were more adventurous about sexual positions. It seems they only know two: man on top and woman on top. 

As for Penelope being Lady Whistledown, it makes sense but makes me think less of Pen. Lady Whistledown's takedown of Marina was vicious. 

[Nidratime]

Quote

Penelope really ruined Marina’s life.  Had she married Colin she would have at least been happy, but Pen wanted what she wanted, and didn’t get it either.  So much for girl power.

Marina and George ruined Marina's life. Marina was just spreading the ruin when she arrived in London and proceeded to agree to run away with Colin without telling him she was pregnant.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

I kind of wish Daphne and Simon were more adventurous about sexual positions. It seems they only know two: man on top and woman on top. 

Being on top was a matter of control. But I agree their sex scenes were boring and frankly uncomfortable as Simon threw Daphne down on various hard surfaces and ground down. The folly scene in particular. Just head for one of your many bedrooms or a sofa, dude, not a damn stone floor. 

[Growsonwalls]

I kind of wonder if now that Daphne has had a son she and Simon will actually use the pull-out method for birth control. She doesn't need to have 8 kids like her mother did. 

I also hope that in future seasons their kids will actually look biracial. That always irks me when there's a mixed race child who looks white. 

[Conotocarious]

7 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I kind of wonder if now that Daphne has had a son she and Simon will actually use the pull-out method for birth control. She doesn't need to have 8 kids like her mother did. 

I also hope that in future seasons their kids will actually look biracial. That always irks me when there's a mixed race child who looks white. 

One of my best friends is in a biracial marriage and her child absolutely looks white. And so far from what we have seen of him, Archie Mountbatten looks white. It happens. There’s no reason to be irked that it does.

[RedbirdNelly]

[I've only read part of the responses so apologies if I'm repeating something already covered in detail]

I enjoyed this episode and the wrap up except for the idea of Pen being Whistledown. It doesn't add up for me at all. I have not read the books so perhaps there is some explanation (such as the Modiste helping her actually write it). I don't take this show super seriously so I have not been thinking seriously about "who is W" because it's not that type of show for me and I honestly would not have been surprised for W to just be a writer's device--where we never find out who it is and it's like a narrator who just knows everything conveniently. 

Anyway--if we're to buy it is a real person, then Pen being it makes no sense at all (again assuming no team of people we later learn about). A lot of people have defended her actions with "naive teenager"--I can buy that. It fits how she is portrayed on the show. BUT I'm supposed to believe this teenager writes a gossip newsletter that comes out on the regular but does not sound like teenage drivel? Have we seen anything demonstrating Pen's maturity and adult writing ability? did I skip that part? It just doesn't fit. The Modiste does and I was content with that. 

Then add in why Pen thinks its a good idea to go so far as to ruin her sisters chances etc? and do nothing to fix it if it was an ignorant mistake on her part? 

I'm also wondering what Pen does with her cash from this effort? no mention of her finding a way to pay off family debts with it. So she's sitting on it while her mom can't pay for dresses? if she's so clever to find out all this gossip while seeming to be stuck at her house a lot, get it published and distributed, I think she'd figure out a way to make come up with some underhand way for the Modiste etc to get paid without it appearing to come from her. 

Ok back to not thinking seriously about this show. Although many find Daphne bland, I do find the Duke and Daphne to be sweet together. When they are happy together, they honestly look happy as a couple. 

[ouinason]

All in all, things worked out pretty well for Marina.  She got married and most of the world, not knowing about George, will assume that Phillip was the father all along and consider it all tidied up and the scandal will go away (in a wider sense, small town gossip is still small town gossip).  She won't be shamed or ostracized (much) and her children will not be looked down on or anything.  She's basically getting what she wanted with Colin, only Phillip knows the deal instead of being lied to.  

 

So, Marina didn't get the dashing Bridgerton, but her life is not ruined any more than it would have been if she'd married Colin and had a very "premature" delivery.

Edited December 31, 2020 by ouinason
Clarification and spelling

[chaifan]

I think this episode was probably the best of the series, and it did a nice job of wrapping things up.  I know Shonda signed on for a 2 season deal, so we know there will be a 2nd season.  But if there wasn't, or if it wasn't sure, this ended well to be a one and done show.  And honestly, I don't know if I'm that interested to watch a 2nd season.  Because it's streaming, probably will.  I don't know if it's something I'd make the effort to tune into weekly on network tv, though. 

I think the scene with Marina in the hallway explaining what it meant to her to know that George loved her was one of the best scenes of the season.  Probably one of the most believable bits of dialog, and excellently delivered.  I also laughed at how the doctor delivered the line about the tea, like he spends way too much time reviving women who stupidly thought some tea would cause a successful abortion.

I loved how all the women at the Hastings' ball were in various shades of blue, with a little lavender/purple (Daphne, Lady Danbury).  And then in walk the Featheringtons!  They are a colorful bunch, in every sense of the word!  I do wish they showed the artist dashing for the painting in the rain.  It was sad to see that rained on.  I love Lady Danbury's penchant for the high collars - this show is set in an era of fashion that I don't normally like, but Lady Danbury and Simon were the fashion exceptions for me.  Oh, and the Eloise makeover was interesting.  She went from looking 15 to 35 overnight.  (The actress is 35.)***  But you have to hope that Eloise's stunt of warning Lady W away doesn't make it back to the Queen.  Oh, she'd be pissed Eloise foiled that scheme.

Can someone clarify for me where the Hastings' ball was held?  Was it at Lady Danbury's?  Which doesn't make sense because Simon's dad's desk and letters were there.  But Hastings' estate is a day+ carriage ride out of town, right?  (Which is why the spent their wedding night at an Inn.)  Or does he also have an estate in town as well?  I thought he was staying with Lady Danbury while in town.  I was confused by that.  Please, someone, explain for me.

***ETA - oops, my bad - Claudia Jessie is 31, not 35.

Edited December 31, 2020 by chaifan
Misstated Eloise actress' age

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I think this episode was probably the best of the series, and it did a nice job of wrapping things up.  I know Shonda signed on for a 2 season deal, so we know there will be a 2nd season.  But if there wasn't, or if it wasn't sure, this ended well to be a one and done show.  And honestly, I don't know if I'm that interested to watch a 2nd season.  Because it's streaming, probably will.  I don't know if it's something I'd make the effort to tune into weekly on network tv, though. 

I think the scene with Marina in the hallway explaining what it meant to her to know that George loved her was one of the best scenes of the season.  Probably one of the most believable bits of dialog, and excellently delivered.  I also laughed at how the doctor delivered the line about the tea, like he spends way too much time reviving women who stupidly thought some tea would cause a successful abortion.

I loved how all the women at the Hastings' ball were in various shades of blue, with a little lavender/purple (Daphne, Lady Danbury).  And then in walk the Featheringtons!  They are a colorful bunch, in every sense of the word!  I do wish they showed the artist dashing for the painting in the rain.  It was sad to see that rained on.  I love Lady Danbury's penchant for the high collars - this show is set in an era of fashion that I don't normally like, but Lady Danbury and Simon were the fashion exceptions for me.  Oh, and the Eloise makeover was interesting.  She went from looking 15 to 35 overnight.  (The actress is 35.)  But you have to hope that Eloise's stunt of warning Lady W away doesn't make it back to the Queen.  Oh, she'd be pissed Eloise foiled that scheme.

Can someone clarify for me where the Hastings' ball was held?  Was it at Lady Danbury's?  Which doesn't make sense because Simon's dad's desk and letters were there.  But Hastings' estate is a day+ carriage ride out of town, right?  (Which is why the spent their wedding night at an Inn.)  Or does he also have an estate in town as well?  I thought he was staying with Lady Danbury while in town.  I was confused by that.  Please, someone, explain for me.

 

The ball was held at the Hastings's London residence.  

[Kirsty]

Okay, the queen is starting to grow on me. She's no Lady Danbury, though!

I was absolutely thrilled to learn that someone was adapting a Regency romance for TV. But my expectations weren't high; I just hoped this show would be watchable. Would I love if the writing was sharper, the dialogue wittier, the plots tighter, and the characters more fully fleshed out? Of course! But it was a true reflection of a Regency romance novel, it was a delicious Christmas treat, and I would love another one next year, please! Take a bow, Rege-Jean Page and Phoebe Dynevor, for bringing the smoking hot duke and the pretty heroine from page to screen.

When the duke and duchess run into one another in one of the corridors of one of their vast homes, it cracks me up that they greet each other with "Your Grace" and "Your Grace". I should totally start using that!

And I loved that when Marina declines Sir Philip's proposal, the two other Featherington sisters look like they want to tell him "I'll marry you!" 😄

The outcome of the boxing match surprised me. I expected the duke's boxer friend to have second thoughts and to decide that his honour is off the market. When he later explains that true honour is supporting and caring for his family, I think that's the message of the show, in the light of all the nonsense about honour in this period.

I never liked Marina. By the time she realised the abortion tea hadn't really done the trick, I was fed up of her. I think she insulted everyone who tried to come up with a solution for her, she was miserable for the entire season, her character was cut off from everyone else's storylines and never showed any interest in them. Before you tell me so: yes, most if not all of these things are understandable given her situation! I wouldn't be smiling either in her shoes. But none of it endeared her to me. While I could respect the character for always asserting herself, I couldn't like her. Bye Marina!

Uh, Daphne and Simon aren't exactly role models for conflict resolution. When Daphne finally resorted to opening long-kept, sealed letters addressed to someone else (who does that?), it was actually one of her better courses of action (and only a minor violation!) in her battle with her husband. At least she's finally trying to understand instead of simply lashing out.

For Chrissake, Anthony. Under the stands at a boxing match?

This one was a good set up for a second season. Both Penelope and Anthony are broken-hearted. Lord Featherington is missing presumed dead with a new heir on the horizon. And now we know who's behind Lady Whistledown. As has been argued here already, that last one completely changes our understanding of Penelope's character. Instead of taking responsibility for telling Marina's secret, Penelope did it anonymously, behind the cover of Lady Whistledown, and all because she thinks Colin belongs to her.

Quote

This show veered more toward Regency Gossip Girl.

Nailed it!

Edited December 31, 2020 by Kirsty

[Artsda]

35 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Can someone clarify for me where the Hastings' ball was held?  Was it at Lady Danbury's?  Which doesn't make sense because Simon's dad's desk and letters were there.  But Hastings' estate is a day+ carriage ride out of town, right?  (Which is why the spent their wedding night at an Inn.)  Or does he also have an estate in town as well?  I thought he was staying with Lady Danbury while in town.  I was confused by that.  Please, someone, explain for me.

 

That was Hastings House, his London estate.  The Duke's holdings include a lot of different estates all over.

[Growsonwalls]

I thought Marina got as happy of an ending as could have been expected considering she was pregnant and her amour was dead. Philip seemed to be a pretty good guy.

I don't get why she was so keen on marrying Colin and so against marrying Philip. Philip actually offered her a marriage knowing she was pregnant and he'd have to raise a child that wasn't his. 

[bijoux]

7 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I thought Marina got as happy of an ending as could have been expected considering she was pregnant and her amour was dead. Philip seemed to be a pretty good guy.

I don't get why she was so keen on marrying Colin and so against marrying Philip. Philip actually offered her a marriage knowing she was pregnant and he'd have to raise a child that wasn't his. 

I got a wiff of ew, that's George's brother. Which I would likely feel as well, but a big difference is that I'm living 200 years after Marina. So it feels anachronistic much like Daphne putting Berbrooke down because of his age. Which by my count is Simon's age as well. 

[UnoAgain]

14 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I thought Marina got as happy of an ending as could have been expected considering she was pregnant and her amour was dead. Philip seemed to be a pretty good guy.

I don't get why she was so keen on marrying Colin and so against marrying Philip. Philip actually offered her a marriage knowing she was pregnant and he'd have to raise a child that wasn't his. 

Well with Colin she wasn't a ruined woman with a bastard.. But about to be the wife of a gentleman... By the time Phillip first pops up... She's ruined everyone knows about her transgressions and she believes she's gotten rid of the baby.. So no reason to marry a dude who doesn't actually want her but is fulfilling an obligation... Its only after she knows she's still preggo that she relents

[EyewatchTV211]

6 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I got a wiff of ew, that's George's brother. Which I would likely feel as well, but a big difference is that I'm living 200 years after Marina. So it feels anachronistic much like Daphne putting Berbrooke down because of his age. Which by my count is Simon's age as well. 

And on a superficial note, I thought Sir Phillip was pretty good looking himself, the little we got to see of him. I would have accepted his offer in a heartbeat if that was me at the time. 😄

[Growsonwalls]

2 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

Well with Colin she wasn't a ruined woman with a bastard.. But about to be the wife of a gentleman... By the time Phillip first pops up... She's ruined everyone knows about her transgressions and she believes she's gotten rid of the baby.. So no reason to marry a dude who doesn't actually want her but is fulfilling an obligation... Its only after she knows she's still preggo that she relents

But if the baby popped out five months after she married Colin wouldn't tongues have wagged anyway?

[Auntie Anxiety]

56 minutes ago, Kirsty said:

When the duke and duchess run into one another in one of the corridors of one of their vast homes, it cracks me up that they greet each other with "Your Grace" and "Your Grace". I should totally start using that!

After watching one of the British Queen series (Spanish Queen or one of the Elizabeths), I informed my sons that from now on, they should address me as “Lady Mother.”

[Door County Cherry]

20 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

But if the baby popped out five months after she married Colin wouldn't tongues have wagged anyway?

Possibly.  But would have likely assumed it was his.  There's also a difference between speculation and "knowledge."  

[RedbirdNelly]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

  I do wish they showed the artist dashing for the painting in the rain.  It was sad to see that rained on.  I love Lady Danbury's penchant for the high collars - this show is set in an era of fashion that I don't normally like, but Lady Danbury and Simon were the fashion exceptions for me.  Oh, and the Eloise makeover was interesting.  She went from looking 15 to 35 overnight.  (The actress is 35.)  But you have to hope that Eloise's stunt of warning Lady W away doesn't make it back to the Queen.  Oh, she'd be pissed Eloise foiled that scheme.

 

 

* yes on the painting. I had the same thought. Normally when something like that gets ruined it also signifies the end of the relationship etc. 

*interesting on Eloise--because the one thing that bothered me about her from the beginning is she looks a lot older than Daphne. I now know why.

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Oh, and the Eloise makeover was interesting.  She went from looking 15 to 35 overnight. 

To me, she looked at least 30 throughout. I wanted to love Eloise and I did love her characterization, but I found the actress so distracting. She looked far older than Daphne, she had a weird eye thing going on, and she moved her mouth in an annoying manor way too often. That’s all very superficial but damn if I didn’t find it all so distracting lol.

[RedbirdNelly]

24 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

To me, she looked at least 30 throughout. I wanted to love Eloise and I did love her characterization, but I found the actress so distracting. She looked far older than Daphne, she had a weird eye thing going on, and she moved her mouth in an annoying manor way too often. That’s all very superficial but damn if I didn’t find it all so distracting lol.

this 100%. I'm not sure why you cast someone that old for a role that young (or does season 2 time jump?) unless they are a Ralph Machio type who looks years younger than they actually are.  In episode 1, I thought "this person looks like the older sister."

 

[ursula]

31 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

this 100%. I'm not sure why you cast someone that old for a role that young (or does season 2 time jump?) unless they are a Ralph Machio type who looks years younger than they actually are.  In episode 1, I thought "this person looks like the older sister."

It took me a while to understand that Eloise was supposed to be a younger sister. I thought she was a friend or cousin for the first few moments, before it clicked. Based on the show alone, I expect her and Benedict to be the siblings most likely to be queer (although I clock Eloise as asexual).