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Door County Cherry

E01.08: After the Rain

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Well, despite being an ass I found Anthony very attractive.  I am not proud of it but there it is.  Everyone keeps telling me this show will get a second season and I hope he will be back.

Marina was very lucky this brother showed up and had a sense of honor.  Realistically her fate eventually would have been a descent into the demimonde - or worse.  This world was not kind to women who flaunted the conventions naively or otherwise and had no protection.  I haven't read many romances but I did read one years ago that stayed with me as both a cautionary tale and as oddly romantic - The Duke's Wager by Edith Layton, it's worth reading.

I too thought both Benedict and Eloise are gay.

Oh, and you know what they call couples who practice withdrawal as a birth control method?  Parents.

Edited by magdalene
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11 hours ago, Bellatrix said:

Actually that attitude only goes back to the Victorian age. It was a Victorian invention. 

In the Middle Ages, for example, women were thought to be sexually voracious. Because they wanted their wombs to be filled.

In 16th century it was believed that if a woman didn't enjoy sex, she coudn't become pregnant.

And originally the woman was presented as a temptress who seduced the man to sex. Only in the bourgeois age the relationship turned upside down (f.ex. Pamela and Clarissa by Samuel Richardson). 

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1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

In 16th century it was believed that if a woman didn't enjoy sex, she coudn't become pregnant.

Given increased libido and natural lubrication during ovulation, pre-Victorians (and other societies who observed the results) weren’t wrong. 
But a woman’s potential fertility would become inversely valuable when more children just meant smaller portions of inheritance rather than more hands to work and provide for aging parents.

Edited by shapeshifter

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26 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

But a woman’s potential fertility would become inversely valuable when more children just meant smaller portions of inheritance rather than more hands to work and provide for aging parents.

Yes, the population growth slowed in France after Napoleon's law that not only the eldest son would inherit. It seems that the French soldiers had learned some contraception and used it also with their wives.

Also, vaccination lessened the child mortality rate.   

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2 hours ago, Haleth said:

And on hearing of her husband's death, Mrs F immediately checked the desk for cash.  She was more upset about losing the money than her husband.

Given what we saw of Lord F, in Lady F's position I probably would have felt the same.

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10 hours ago, quarks said:

Given what we saw of Lord F, in Lady F's position I probably would have felt the same.

One of my favorite scenes in this episode was when Marine asked her how she managed to stay married so long to a man she didn't love. Her brutally honest response really made her like her, just the tiniest smidgen. Or at least, understand how she came to be such a tough person.

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15 minutes ago, Starleigh said:

One of my favorite scenes in this episode was when Marine asked her how she managed to stay married so long to a man she didn't love. Her brutally honest response really made her like her, just the tiniest smidgen. Or at least, understand how she came to be such a tough person.

I think the whole arc of Lady F and her interactions with Marina are included to show the precarity of being a woman of the Ton.  In many ways they have it better than women of lower social classes,  but they still are at the mercy of their husbands.   The Feathingtonss marriage is a business transaction where Lasy F is the only one who held up her end.  Her husband gambles away their daughters' futures and she is powerless to stop it.  She pushes Marina to make the best out of the shitty hand she was dealt.  

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In the end I don't like Eloise. She makes this huge show of rejecting the conventions of the social hierarchy but throws around her status as Bridgerton to both the Modis and the maid she thought were Lady Whistledown. 

I look forward to the day Marina more than anyone else discovers Pen is Lady Whistledown.

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Yes, Eloise bemoans the limitations of her status (not unreasonably), but has no qualms at all about exploiting it's advantages.  I don't know that she realizes fully how hand in glove those things really are.  Not that it's right in any way, but it is what it is and it was what it was.

 

Being a woman in just about all societies sucks ass.

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1 hour ago, ouinason said:

Yes, Eloise bemoans the limitations of her status (not unreasonably), but has no qualms at all about exploiting it's advantages.  I don't know that she realizes fully how hand in glove those things really are.  Not that it's right in any way, but it is what it is and it was what it was.

 

Being a woman in just about all societies sucks ass.

Eloise kind of reminds me of the girls who dye their hair purple, wear funky glasses, and then call themselves "quirky" or "outcasts" when if you took away the "quirky" hair color and glasses they'd just be very normal people. She's a little too smug about how different and clever she is from her more conventional siblings when she's pretty conventional herself.

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I watched Colin’s departure scene waiting for one of his loving family to point out you can’t get from England to Greece on horseback. Boyfriend’s gonna grow up fast when he hits the Channel.

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I so called it about Penelope I so called it! I think that the thing that pisses me off about Penelope in Mrs. W was back when she cracked on how Daphne was done so soon after her big debut which basically led to the whole plot of the season a most of the Bridgeton's problems. Why would she do something that would not only hurt Daphne, but also her best friend Eloise or Colin, who she is in love with? What did they do to deserve that, it could have stuck Daphne in a horrible marriage to that creep Berbrooke and generally hurt their whole families futures, including her best friend and the guy she loves? You could make a case that her spilling about Mariana as having good intentions, saving Colin from being manipulated into a marriage under false pretenses, but I don't see any good intentions at all about a lot of other things Mrs. W pulled. 

I am guessing that the next season will focus on Anthony and his search for a suitable bride next season with Simon and Daphne as supporting characters, and that the rest of the seasons will follow in that suite. The next season will be about Benedict, then Eloise, or Colin, etc or in some other order? I really like the actor playing Anthony, and mostly like Anthony when he isn't acting like a jerk about his official brotherly gatekeeping, so I am cool with that as long as we still see more of Daphne and Simon, especially Simon, the Duke of Eye Candy. 

On 1/6/2021 at 10:36 AM, Growsonwalls said:

She's a little too smug about how different and clever she is from her more conventional siblings when she's pretty conventional herself.

I appreciate that Eloise calls out how hard it is to be a women in Regency society and her dreams of being a writer are something I can support, but I find her smugness about how much better she is than everyone else in society, even her own siblings, to be really annoying. Of course a lot of the conversations at balls and such are boring, they're practically scripted and aggressively polite to keep people from accidently committing a faux pas that could seriously damage their future and the future of their family, especially if they don't have a lot of money or status compared to other people. Yeah it sucks, but don't hate the player, hate the game. Some of her snark can be about as mean as the mean girl types, but in a different direction. It kind of reminds me of that episode of 30 Rock where Liz is getting ready to go to her high school reunion and she tells everyone how she was an unpopular but lovable quirky and snarky nerd who was picked on by mean cheerleaders. But when we get there, we find out that SHE was actually the jerk who was picking on the cheerleaders and that her snark was quite mean spirited and directed towards people who didn't really deserve it. 

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On 1/2/2021 at 11:39 AM, ursula said:

Daphne didn’t know anything about sex before she got married. Eloise and Penelope didn’t know where babies come from. That’s not my personal claim - that’s the story. All these girls are prepared for marriage without knowing how sex works. We’re expected to accept that as the reality of this time... Yet you somehow believe that Marina who hadn’t even been out on a season when she slept with Sir George should have known about sex. You’re apparently fine with the assumption that all these coincidentally white debutantes were really that naive about their own bodies but somehow the coincidentally Black girl who was even younger than Daphne should have “known” better.

As for the rest re:race, since nothing you wrote in anyway addresses the point I made, I have nothing further to say. 

The casting was color blind and you weren't supposed to see color.  I did not assign any different standard to Marina due to race or even compare her with any character presented as white.  Marina had slept with someone and gotten pregnant; no white girl could do that without societal problems either; that was the point of the diverse casting; to make it the same thing for black as white people.   I would not think it right of any woman regardless of color to marry a man under false pretences.  Your accusations are unfair.  

On 1/3/2021 at 2:49 AM, shapeshifter said:

The best scene with Simon was with Daphne's youngest siblings, so, since Daphne and Simon certainly have a perfect sex life too, we can be sure they will live happily ever after. 

I knew he would wind up accepting the child and was impatient that at the beginning of the last episode, Simon was still anti-child!  How were they going to turn it around by the end of one episode to have a happy ending?  But all it took was some time with Gregory and Hyacinth and he starts smiling and now he's fine with having a baby!   

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I think Simon would have always come around in the end regardless of whether he interacted with the siblings. His whole act of revenge on his dead father was childish and illogical. It wasn’t a situation where he didn’t want to have a child but moreso he just wanted to punish his father. The drama was quite weak which is why it was easily wrapped up once Daphne knew the truth.

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Simon was never anti-child, he was against siring a legitimate male heir to inherit the title.  Simon's plan was to remain unmarried and therefore never having legitimate issue.  Then the line would die with him assuming there were no other legitimate males in the family.  The show never details how robust the Basset family is.  The show hints at how selfish Simon is being with this vow, but I wish it would have delved into it more.  He chose to neglect his estate and the responsibilities he has to the point where his steward is nowhere to be found.  The steward being the guy who is supposed to take care of the estate while the Duke is busy with Parliament.  The people on the estate are hurting because of the neglect.  Simon does take the matter in hand and tries to rectify it, but the show glosses over how serious this is.  I haven't read the book to know if the book delves deeper into this.  Simon learns about the responsibility of being a duke, and because he is not a dick he starts to open up.  He starts to see that his vow is hurting more than his dead dad and himself.  Along the way he also realizes that having a family is not a bad thing.  The people living on his lands need the stability of him having an heir.  

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7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Simon, the Duke of Eye Candy

"Simon, the Duke of Eye Candy," heh. I'm trying to set this to the tune of "Duke of Earl" in my mind.

 

 

1 hour ago, Avabelle said:

I think Simon would have always come around in the end regardless of whether he interacted with the siblings. His whole act of revenge on his dead father was childish and illogical. It wasn’t a situation where he didn’t want to have a child but moreso he just wanted to punish his father. The drama was quite weak which is why it was easily wrapped up once Daphne knew the truth.

For sure, " Simon would have always come around in the end regardless of whether he interacted with the siblings." The scene of Simon making a paper pony for the adorable little girl and boy was performative, not causative. But, for we, the audience, "performative" is the Chekhovian bit that makes the final denouement stick the landing (to mix a handful of metaphors).

 

 

59 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Simon was never anti-child, he was against siring a legitimate male heir to inherit the title.  Simon's plan was to remain unmarried and therefore never having legitimate issue.  Then the line would die with him assuming there were no other legitimate males in the family.  The show never details how robust the Basset family is.  The show hints at how selfish Simon is being with this vow, but I wish it would have delved into it more.  He chose to neglect his estate and the responsibilities he has to the point where his steward is nowhere to be found.  The steward being the guy who is supposed to take care of the estate while the Duke is busy with Parliament.  The people on the estate are hurting because of the neglect.  Simon does take the matter in hand and tries to rectify it, but the show glosses over how serious this is.  I haven't read the book to know if the book delves deeper into this.  Simon learns about the responsibility of being a duke, and because he is not a dick he starts to open up.  He starts to see that his vow is hurting more than his dead dad and himself.  Along the way he also realizes that having a family is not a bad thing.  The people living on his lands need the stability of him having an heir.  

Simon taking on his paternalistic role of responsibility for his serfs (or whatever they were) is also foreshadowing of his eventual acceptance of the status of father.

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1 hour ago, Avabelle said:

The drama was quite weak which is why it was easily wrapped up once Daphne knew the truth.

You could really see the exact moment it really hit him how stupid his whole vow was, as soon as she said the whole thing out loud it was only a matter of time before he gave this whole thing up. It was clear that he liked kids, was good with kids, and the only reason he didn't want kids was out of revenge against his father, wanting to stop their hereditary line to spite him. In the end, its not spitting his father so much as letting his awful dad still rule his life, even from beyond the grave and was only hurting himself and Daphne. When she finally got how dumb it was to him, there was nothing stopping them from having kids and being thrilled about it.

Edited by tennisgurl
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On 12/27/2020 at 5:22 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

There is also a question of what happened to the money that Lord F. won. The two most likely possibilities are that Lord F. actually paid off a good number of his debts or the unsavory types made him make a involuntary withdrawal.

All the IOUs were missing, so did the bookies sneak in and steal them?  Or had Lord F taken them with him to collect on them when he was waylaid and killed?

At the end, I enjoyed the show well enough, but I think they could have done a better job.  It was a weird mix of modern and old fashioned...i.e., the sex scenes which were “ooh, sex in a romance”, but not done with much finesse.  Think of the sex scenes in Outlander, which are amazing, and push the story forward.  These seemed sort of perfunctory.

At the end of it, they could have given me 8 hours of watching Simon and Anthony walk around in their gorgeousness, maybe riding a horse now and then, and I would have been happy. 🙂

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Simon also looked sad and a little disappointed when he realized that Daphne wasn't pregnant.  After that, it was basically over except for the HEA moment.

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Phillip came back to marry Marina after she rejected him. Yeah right. Totally unbelievable.

Simon being there when daphne delivers? Men only recently been with wife when she had the baby,

So guess Feathergtons are now poor and homeless?

Season 2 will likely happen since like 60 million watched season 1. 
 

Physical Books of the series are not available to purchase. Oh well.

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18 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

Phillip came back to marry Marina after she rejected him. Yeah right. Totally unbelievable.

Philip doesn't love Marina, the only reason why he offered to marry her is because he feels very strongly about providing for her because of his brother. It's not unbelievable that, so long as he remained unattached, he would marry her because that feeling of obligation doesn't go away just because she rejected him. She's still pregnant with his brother's child, and he still feels like he needs to provide for her and the baby. He likely didn't feel any sense of personal rejection, so I don't have that much of a problem believing that he did come back to marry her. 

Edited by eleanorofaquitaine · Reason: A few typos to correct.
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Another binge watcher here, and though I'll probably watch again, right now all the episodes run together for me, so Ill just post some thoughts here.  I'm a little over half way through this thread so far, and have not read the books, but avidly read the spoiler tagged things.

First, although I was wondering about the mixing of the races in that era and in England?  I was kind of disappointed when they came in with an excuse for it.  "Ever since the King fell in love with the Queen..." stuff really annoyed me.  I was enjoying a world, so familiar to me in so many ways, but a world where the color of skin simply didn't matter, to anyone.  The writers giving "a reason" cheapened my enjoyment of that lovely feeling of "what if" that needed no explanations in a rational world.  I missed having that kind of rational world.

For the book readers that commented on being sad that so many non readers now hate Pen?  Non reader here, and I didn't hate her at all, not even a smidge.  (I'll  take most of this to that designated thread.)  I'll just say, I liked her carving out a space where she was appreciated, not just for gossip, but for wit, and as a writer everyone waited to read.  She didn't fit into her available molds, so broke them.  She was also quite young.  I also don't agree that Pen (alone) ruined her family.  Her father took care of that, broke, gambler, killed for trying to swindle the wrong people (so also a fool) and leaving them all destitute.  They would no longer be received anywhere, even if that column hadn't come out.

As for Marina?  I began liking her very much, and I sympathized with her predicament for most of the season.  Then?  She completely lost me.  She betrayed the person who had been a friend to her, actually the only person who was kind to her.  She then stuck the knife in further after this friend begged her to choose someone else to con, just not her dear friend whom she loved (and not simply romantically.)  THEN she set out to lie to and con him, when she did have other options.  As for "she was doing it for her child?"  Oh please!  In what universe?  She tried very hard to kill her child, and would have done that in a heartbeat if she had a more efficient way.  I don't blame or judge her for that part, but for lying and conning and using?  Fuck her.

I in no way found Daphne boring, now part of that may be that she is a dead ringer for my God Daughter (really, it was shocking, and watching the sex scenes was a trifle odd for me.)  She was smart as a whip, she was deeply kind, she, like so many other of the fabulous women in this season, was trying as hard as she could to determine her own destiny, and she cleverly found a way by making that pact with Simon.  Sure, that they fell in love and lived happily ever after was a bit much, especially after the "meet cute" stuff.  However, at this moment in my life?  I needed some happy.  Even after in love with Simon she refused to be a doormat, and called him on his lies and deceit, which I'm sure was extremely hurtful, and she let that hurt show.  I adored her.  When she punched that cad I laughed out loud, she rescued herself there, and I appreciated that.

Simon?  Oh my!  So very handsome, and a decently complicated story.  I was happy for him, to finally realize that the "get even" vow to his despicable father didn't hurt the dead asshole at all, but WAS ruining his life.  He loved kids, he loved his wife, he tried hard to fix the issues at the estate.  I think he fell in love with Daphne as much for her happy, big, easy home life as he did with her charm, intelligence, or beauty.  Her family is what really sealed the deal for him, IMO, and showed him what a family could be like, and the kind of family that in the end, he wanted most of all.  "Let's start with A, it's a family tradition." was perfect writing.

Lady Danbury was an absolute delight.  Who wouldn't adore her?  This is turning into a book though, so I'll just say, absolute applause for both the character and the actress.

I loved the petty blond girl who dumped her drink on Pen, I didn't love her as a person, but as a character, she was very believable to me, and the mother, actually I enjoyed the entire supporting cast.  The mean girls, the "not of our kind" girls and woman, and the atrocious men they cast in the icky roles were genius.  The opera girl, although confusing in places?  I loved her final scenes, facing reality, charting her own course, crying all the way through it.  

Summing up?  I had fun with the show.  I ordered a couple of books.  It was just what I needed at this particular time.

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On 1/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, ouinason said:

Simon also looked sad and a little disappointed when he realized that Daphne wasn't pregnant

I interpreted Simon’s look to mean that when he heard her heartbroken sobs he felt sorry for her loss (of the hope of being pregnant) because he really did love her, and that maybe he was beginning to reconsider having a child —– which isn’t quite the same as disappointment, because he was so sure he didn’t want a child until that moment. 
But maybe that’s what you meant too? 
Anyway, that look was definitely a liminal moment for the character of Simon. 

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16 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Philip doesn't love Marina, the only reason why he offered to marry her is because he feels very strongly about providing her because of his brother. It's not unbelievable that, so long as he remained unattached, he would marry her because that feeling of obligation doesn't go away just because she rejected her. She's still pregnant with his brother's child, and he still feels like he needs to provide for her and the baby. He likely didn't feel any sense of personal rejection, so I don't have that much of a problem believing that he did come back to marry her. 

Yeah, it is about honor rather than personal feelings. It's still a point of honor that he make amends for his brother's misdeeds and take care of his future nephew/niece. Indeed, it would be more unbelievable if Philip was like, "Too late, my pride has been wounded."

Plus, there are worse fates than having to handcuff yourself to someone who looks like Marina.

On 1/9/2021 at 9:04 PM, MartyQui said:

All the IOUs were missing, so did the bookies sneak in and steal them?  Or had Lord F taken them with him to collect on them when he was waylaid and killed?

We last saw Lord F in what I took to be a high-end brothel savoring the fruits of his victory when Donald Corleonington and Anthony Montoya confronted him. So it's possible that before his arrival at the brothel, he'd paid the debts. Or it's possible that the offer DC and AM made that Lord F could not refuse involved going back to F's home and scooping up the money (and with it any documents that were there.)

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I haven’t read the books, but I understand that each one concentrates on a different Bridgerton child. I predict that future seasons will feature story points from more than one book because they could never film eight series before the actors start to get too old. As it is now, Hyacinth looks like she’s fifteen. Plus they would want to keep the hot Duke and Duchess in more of the story, and not have them off at Clyvedon popping out babies. 

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21 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Another binge watcher here, and though I'll probably watch again, right now all the episodes run together for me, so Ill just post some thoughts here.  I'm a little over half way through this thread so far, and have not read the books, but avidly read the spoiler tagged things.

First, although I was wondering about the mixing of the races in that era and in England?  I was kind of disappointed when they came in with an excuse for it.  "Ever since the King fell in love with the Queen..." stuff really annoyed me.  I was enjoying a world, so familiar to me in so many ways, but a world where the color of skin simply didn't matter, to anyone.  The writers giving "a reason" cheapened my enjoyment of that lovely feeling of "what if" that needed no explanations in a rational world.  I missed having that kind of rational world.

I felt the same way. I loved the fantasy world where Simon was so hot and no one even thought about his race. I felt like Daphne and Simon's relationship had a lot of "wow he's hot. Like." I enjoyed that colorblind fantasy. Is it realistic? No, but this series is so not rooted in realism I didn't think an explanation of race was necessary. I was just bathing in this ideal world where people are evaluated for the hotness of their face and not the color of their skin.

On the other side of the coin I ALSO originally thought that the presence of Simon as a Duke was a nod to the fact that societies in the past were a lot more diverse than acknowledged. There WAS a lot of "passing" -- all hush hush and not really talked about but Beethoven, Lincoln, Eisenhower among others were thought to have mothers who "passed." So to be given that clear-cut explanation by Charlotte ruined it for me.

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On 1/3/2021 at 5:09 AM, nomodrama said:

I don't understand Siena.....did she or did she not love Anthony? in the first couple episodes she makes it sound like she is upset that Anthony dumps her because she is looking for someone to fund her lifestyle, not because she particularly cares about him. Then in the end she giving serious Wallis Simpson vibes, like she wants Anthony to denounce his title so that they can live the way she is used to?

I thought Sienna wanted Anthony to be practical and “commit” (in the way their society allows) if he actually wanted to keep her. He was a Viscount, he was never going to be her husband and life partner- so if he wanted to keep having exclusive sexual/emotional access to her he need to provide. Buy her a house and give her an allowance and let her be able to quit the opera house. 
 

But he wasn’t doing that. He kept talking about his feelings and being trapped and their love, and while I think Sienna did actually enjoy him (emotionally and sexually) she knew she couldn’t keep doing that forever. Her days working at the opera house OR being able to lock down a man who would want her to be a kept woman were numbered and Anthony was wasting her damn time.
 

Such romantic talks may have been fine from a guy 1-2 notches up on the social later who maybe could marry her and secure a social status/income for her, but from Anthony?? 
 

That’s how I saw it. 

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27 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I thought Sienna wanted Anthony to be practical and “commit” (in the way their society allows) if he actually wanted to keep her. He was a Viscount, he was never going to be her husband and life partner- so if he wanted to keep having exclusive sexual/emotional access to her he need to provide. Buy her a house and give her an allowance and let her be able to quit the opera house. 
 

But he wasn’t doing that. He kept talking about his feelings and being trapped and their love, and while I think Sienna did actually enjoy him (emotionally and sexually) she knew she couldn’t keep doing that forever. Her days working at the opera house OR being able to lock down a man who would want her to be a kept woman were numbered and Anthony was wasting her damn time.
 

Such romantic talks may have been fine from a guy 1-2 notches up on the social later who maybe could marry her and secure a social status/income for her, but from Anthony?? 
 

That’s how I saw it. 

I saw it as she was very sexually compatible with Anthony but the new guy gave her an offer she couldn't refuse -- a house, an allowance, and no judgments on her complicated sexual history. She made the practical choice to go with that guy. 

I'm kind of wondering how talented she was at an opera singer because the top opera singers of that time were able to make oodles of money and be the rare independently wealthy woman. They often married other singers or impresarios. 

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2 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm kind of wondering how talented she was at an opera singer because the top opera singers of that time were able to make oodles of money and be the rare independently wealthy woman. They often married other singers or impresarios.

I didn’t get the impression that she was that kind of singer (a real talent), but that she was more of an entertainer. Good, and had fans, but wasn’t running in the performing art crowd and making oodles of money. 
 

Anthony was seriously annoying me by wanting this woman’s time and attention but not offering her anything. He wanted to “pretend” which I think is why he never offered her a house etc. that would require understanding their social differences were too great and he needed to either make her an official mistress or move on!

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On 1/14/2021 at 10:00 PM, Growsonwalls said:

 I was just bathing in this ideal world where people are evaluated for the hotness of their face and not the color of their skin.

This part made me LOL. And not sure if you were purposely referencing this (I think you were), but timely with MLK Jr.'s birthday:

“I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.” - or your version "“I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the hotness of their faces."

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23 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

and no judgments on her complicated sexual history

What about Anthony's "complicated sexual history"?  He raked around quite a bit, didn't he? So did a lot of these upper crusty guys from aristocratic families.  I didn't get the impression that Simon was a virgin either before he fell for Daphne. 

The double standard is so unfair. In this world someone like Sienna is basically considered a whore - to put it bluntly - while men like Anthony get to have their cake and eat it too.  And quite frankly, to be unromantic for a moment, in real life I wouldn't have wanted to have sex with a rake.  They often had the clap - or worse - (Syphilis). No, thank you. Rakes are only attractive in romance novels.

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10 minutes ago, magdalene said:

What about Anthony's "complicated sexual history"?  He raked around quite a bit, didn't he? So did a lot of these upper crusty guys from aristocratic families.  I didn't get the impression that Simon was a virgin either before he fell for Daphne. 

The double standard is so unfair. In this world someone like Sienna is basically considered a whore - to put it bluntly - while men like Anthony get to have their cake and eat it too.  And quite frankly, to be unromantic for a moment, in real life I wouldn't have wanted to have sex with a rake.  They often had the clap - or worse - (Syphilis). No, thank you. Rakes are only attractive in romance novels.

Yeah it's a horrible double standard. What's worse is if Sienna became knocked up it was considered too shameful for a woman to raise a child out of wedlock so the child would have either been dropped at a church turnstile or farmed off to one of Anthony's relatives. 

I also wonder if Simon always pulled out with his dalliances, or whether he just pulled out with Daphne because he didn't want an official heir.

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6 hours ago, magdalene said:

And quite frankly, to be unromantic for a moment, in real life I wouldn't have wanted to have sex with a rake.  They often had the clap - or worse - (Syphilis). No, thank you. Rakes are only attractive in romance novels.

Well, rakes might be good lovers (if they hadn't syphilis) to a woman who knew that it was just for sex and didn't even meant to last.

But it's unlikely that rakes would become faithful husbands. Well, maybe for a start, but what about the time when the wife had born several children and there were more attractive women available?  

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Well that was a ride. Good finale. Really interesting in what Season 2 brings. Simon and Daphne ended up being the least exciting part of it all.  And Ha! So I was right, it was Penelope! When Eloise told her it was Modiste and P didn't even ask questions. It confirmed it even more. Usually when your friend tells you a story you want details.

Penelope could have told Colin privately about Marina's pregnancy. Then only their two families would have known.

But she wanted Marina to be humiliated and to suffer, without getting the consequences of the Fallout from her choice. She could have left an anonymous letter for him. This is the same girl who has been publishing a newspaper in secret for months. Let's not forget all the digs she took at Marina's expense. She embarrassed Colin, someone she claims to love. And she put her own families future at stake. Let's not forget her own MOTHER was apart of the situation. And it was ignited by her FATHER squandering the family moment and therefore not being able to send Marina back home. Marina while, not perfect was trying to do the best in her situation. Penelope acted out of SPITE when she saw 1- they were leaving to get married right away and most importantly 2- when Marina harshly broke the news that Colin did not see her that way. 

Penelope was absolutely wrong in how she handled this. And in the end she lost Colin. And Marina got a respectable man who could take care of her, after all. While her family is in shambles.

As for George making an honest women out of Marina before he left. Marina didn't even know she was pregnant until she got to the Featherington's house. Also she apologized for her remark to Penelope, the girl was under a lot of pressure. Penelope was only losing her "fantasy" of Colin.

Anyway, I developed quite a crush on Colin myself. So Penelope has good taste, at least lol. 

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A truly honorable man wouldn't have bedded Marina if he had no intention of marrying her or he would have married her once they did have sex regardless of the fact he was a soldier about to go off to war. Unless he was also unaware of how babies are made, he should have known there was a chance Marina could get pregnant. Stupid George.

 

Was George the oldest son? I don't understand how he was allowed to be a soldier if he was. 

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I just really wanted Lady Whistledown to be Julie Andrews. 🤥

In hindsight, it makes sense that it was Penelope the whole time. I thought it might have been the maid but she wouldn't be privy to things happening at the balls and parties. Because she feels unheard and unseen and it was the perfect disguise. I don't condone what she did to Marina and Colin (even if I couldn't stand Marina and slightly feel like she needed to be taken down a peg) but it makes sense. 

Also, wouldn't it have been too obvious that the Whistledown paper focused so much on these two families in particular? Like the author had no knowledge of other debutantes and their prospects? 

 

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17 hours ago, Mirabelle said:

A truly honorable man wouldn't have bedded Marina if he had no intention of marrying her or he would have married her once they did have sex regardless of the fact he was a soldier about to go off to war. Unless he was also unaware of how babies are made, he should have known there was a chance Marina could get pregnant. Stupid George.

 

Was George the oldest son? I don't understand how he was allowed to be a soldier if he was. 

Maybe he did the pull-out method as well? lol It's apparently been working for a lot of these men.  Either way, we weren't given enough information of the circumstance. He could have been given order to leave sooner than expected. Or like you said, maybe he was as naïve about conception?

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I have a question. When it starts raining during Daphne's ball, everyone runs to find shelter from the water - except for Daphne herself -, who stands joyously in the downpour, letting the water hit her. Now, I am sure the makers of the series wanted to convey something with this, but it is totally lost on me what it was. It was interesting, isn't doing that considered a foolish act and therefore unacceptable? Yet her society friends smiled at it, they found it endearing for some reason. One of the Featherton girls even wanted to join her, before she was stopped. Why? What was going on there? I don't get it.

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Right before that dance Daphne has a talk with her mother where Violet says she and Edmund (Daphne's father) had their difficulties but they made the choice to love each other every single day. Daphne expresses her doubt that she can do that and Violet tells her she's a Bridgerton and can do anything. She dances with Simon, it starts to rain, and I think it brings Daphne back to the early days of her honeymoon when she was so happy and full of hope and that gives her the courage to finally talk to Simon.

 

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On 1/15/2021 at 11:26 PM, magdalene said:

What about Anthony's "complicated sexual history"?  He raked around quite a bit, didn't he? So did a lot of these upper crusty guys from aristocratic families.  I didn't get the impression that Simon was a virgin either before he fell for Daphne. 

The double standard is so unfair. In this world someone like Sienna is basically considered a whore - to put it bluntly - while men like Anthony get to have their cake and eat it too.  And quite frankly, to be unromantic for a moment, in real life I wouldn't have wanted to have sex with a rake.  They often had the clap - or worse - (Syphilis). No, thank you. Rakes are only attractive in romance novels.

It's grossly unfair. But we're also looking at it through modern eyes.

In their society, just the whisper that Daphne has been felt up by Simon or the gross first suitor whose name escapes me can be enough to "ruin" her for a proper society marriage. Sure, somebody will eventually probably make an offer because she's well connected and has a generous dowry, but it's most likely to be an obvious fortune hunter than a "good" marriage that does the family any credit or makes any children Daphne eventually has sought after marriage partners. A prince, even one apparently far enough down in the succession that he can be musing about setting up house in another country, suspecting that something like this has happened and still being interested is a fantasy.

Meanwhile, Anthony and Simon can whore around as they see fit because they're monied and titled. Of course there will be a certain amount of gossip and as we saw early on with Anthony vetting Daphne's potential suitors, a girl's family may use that as a pretext for rejecting a man, particularly if there are any other objections. But it isn't likely to be a deal breaker with a wealthy duke or viscount. Simon's reputation is apparently fairly well known, yet the eager society mothers pressing their daughters on him is what prompted his deal with Daphne in the first place.

Sienna isn't of their class. She's an attractive woman and a middling sort of talent whose best bet for security is as a courtesan of a wealthy man. No one would be under any illusion that sex isn't part of that deal. All of Anthony's hearts and flowers talk aside, he's wasting her time if he's not willing to formally set her up like that.

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2 hours ago, Harvey said:

I have a question. When it starts raining during Daphne's ball, everyone runs to find shelter from the water - except for Daphne herself -, who stands joyously in the downpour, letting the water hit her. Now, I am sure the makers of the series wanted to convey something with this, but it is totally lost on me what it was. It was interesting, isn't doing that considered a foolish act and therefore unacceptable? Yet her society friends smiled at it, they found it endearing for some reason. One of the Featherton girls even wanted to join her, before she was stopped. Why? What was going on there? I don't get it.

I think it was also a flashback to the earlier days of their marriage, where they were happy, and caught in a downpour, laughing and making love in the gazebo.

A choice to be happy?

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3 hours ago, Harvey said:

I have a question. When it starts raining during Daphne's ball, everyone runs to find shelter from the water - except for Daphne herself -, who stands joyously in the downpour, letting the water hit her. Now, I am sure the makers of the series wanted to convey something with this, but it is totally lost on me what it was. It was interesting, isn't doing that considered a foolish act and therefore unacceptable? Yet her society friends smiled at it, they found it endearing for some reason. One of the Featherton girls even wanted to join her, before she was stopped. Why? What was going on there? I don't get it.

I thought it was like a romance novel trope. I thought Simon and Daphne would run soaking wet into their house and have extremely wet, mud-soaked makeup sex. But turns out Simon lets Daphne sleep and only shows up for makeup sex the next morning.

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In serious Regency novels, young ladies of a certain class did not dally about in the rain.

Rain caused chills and chills brought inevitable sickbeds and/or death.

Me, the whole time I was watching that scene.

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I watched this not expecting to like it and aside from a few moments, I didn’t like it. I didn’t care for another of the characters or actors except for Lady Featherton — I recall thinking the actress was also wonderful in Rome.

Just didn’t work for me but I’m extremely picky with TV shows and don’t like much of anything.

 

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23 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

 I didn’t care for another of the characters or actors except for Lady Featherton — I recall thinking the actress was also wonderful in Rome.

I was continually amazed by the actress's performance - she is really good. I feel somewhat sorry for Lady Featherton. She is not particularly a more evil person than the average person in the series, she is just faced with more difficult challenges than most other participants of the story - yet she continues soldiering on with lots of creativity.  She has to live in a loveless marriage, she has unpopular daughters, then she has to take in a ruined hussie who takes away the attention from her daughters and brings shame to her family, her husband pushes her in debts...she is doing the best she can through the series but she is pushed from one impossible situation to another.

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2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I thought it was like a romance novel trope. I thought Simon and Daphne would run soaking wet into their house and have extremely wet, mud-soaked makeup sex. But turns out Simon lets Daphne sleep and only shows up for makeup sex the next morning.

That reminds me of something that annoyed me. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the next morning, because his shirt was still drenched, but her hair was only damp. No way her hair would dry faster than his shirt.

On 1/17/2021 at 2:41 AM, Aliferously said:

Also, wouldn't it have been too obvious that the Whistledown paper focused so much on these two families in particular? Like the author had no knowledge of other debutantes and their prospects?

Oh, I assumed the paper talked about everyone but we only heard about the two families because they're who the show was about.

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8 hours ago, Aliferously said:

In serious Regency novels, young ladies of a certain class did not dally about in the rain.

Rain caused chills and chills brought inevitable sickbeds and/or death.

Laundering of all of those gorgeous color-coordinated frocks would also be a much much bigger deal in the age of hand washing. Not that the women of this particular class would know much about that.

There's a whole cottage industry of fan fiction-style novels that prequel, sequel, or side- or paraquel Pride & Prejudice characters and their adjacents. One called Longbourn is from the view of the household help and includes more than a little grumbling about the laundry situation with five daughters out in society. The staff definitely have some opinions about Lizzie Bennet getting her hems and stockings muddy traipsing between Longbourn and Netherfield after a big rainstorm. 

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4 hours ago, Harvey said:

she has to take in a ruined hussie who takes away the attention from her daughters and brings shame to her family,

“ruined hussie”
Hee. 
Which reminds me of something else that I don’t think has been brought up. 
Marina said she met her baby daddy in church. And there were other mentions, IIRC, of the Featheringtons and the Bridgertons attending church services.
So.
Presuming that the Bible they read in this alternate universe is like that of Jane Austen’s time, wouldn’t the story of Genesis 38 have made the rounds of the church goers? 
It’s the one about men being smited by God because they “spilled their seed” to avoid impregnating a woman (see, for example, genius.com/Holy-bible-kjv-genesis-38-annotated).

And yet Daphne and Penelope and Eloise were clueless about any of it. 

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1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

“ruined hussie”
Hee. 
Which reminds me of something else that I don’t think has been brought up. 
Marina said she met her baby daddy in church. And there were other mentions, IIRC, of the Featheringtons and the Bridgertons attending church services.
So.
Presuming that the Bible they read in this alternate universe is like that of Jane Austen’s time, wouldn’t the story of Genesis 38 have made the rounds of the church goers? 
It’s the one about men being smited by God because they “spilled their seed” to avoid impregnating a woman (see, for example, genius.com/Holy-bible-kjv-genesis-38-annotated).

And yet Daphne and Penelope and Eloise were clueless about any of it. 

The Bridgertons, Featheringtons, et al all would have gone to church to see and be seen on major holidays only.  They would have also have been Church of England which was pretty bland back then.  The clergy were second or third sons of the aristocracy who took orders because they needed the salary.  The fire and brimstone was kept to a minimum.  There were some clergy who preached harsher sermons, but that was not the norm especially in London.  The story of Onan would not have been discussed anywhere near these ladies.

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I don't think we're supposed to see Lady Featherington as evil, just a smarter version of P&P's Mrs. Bennet.  The fact is that with three daughters, Lady Featherington knows that her and her daughters' financial security is only secured by making a good marital match.  Her daughters likely can't inherit their fathers' estate, so in order for them to not be destitute once he dies, at least one of them but preferably all of them need to find someone who can support them and ultimately, support her. 

She also knows that Marina is in a pretty precarious position and she's trying to get Marina to be a little more practical than Marina actually is. Now, both are willing to resort to trickery towards Colin, and so that makes her something less than a heroine. But I don't think she's bad or evil. 

Polly Walker does an excellent job in this role, so that we can see Lady Featherington is a schemer but ultimately isn't trying to do bad things or is a bad person. It will be interesting to see what Lady F does with her husband's death putting the family in even more jeopardy. 

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Door County Cherry

Please read the rules re: book talk.  It really doesn't belong in episode threads as any specifics about future stories or changes are considered show spoilers, book spoilers or both. 

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