E01.08: After the Rain

[gutbuster]

When Phillip proposes the first time, and Lady F is so happy her prayers have been answered, I would've sworn at some point that Marina said "I don't know this man". I thought (other than her believing her abortion successful) it was her main reason for refusing Phillip, because, unlike Colin, she didn't know him at all. Otherwise he really was kind of the best compromise/solution to not having to marry the old dude and not being able to marry Colin or anyone else of any kind of status. Or was that one of her other proposals?

Sir Phillip was presented as pretty dreamy and delightful, and kind. At least I thought so. A real live knight in shining armor cliché and I was there for it. I was right there on the couch with Pen's sisters each time he was on screen, lol. I wish Marina hadn't looked so much like she was being led to the gallows when he was taking her away. As shitty as things had been going for her it really didn't seem like such an awful resolution. Especially since Phillip, again, was presented as being a good man. Which was one of her reasons for wanting Colin. She was so certain she couldn't grow to love Phillip or be happy with him, when she was okay with being with Colin who she didn't love or know all that well either. I understand her being upset and disappointed, but it would have been nice, in the context of the show and after everything she'd been through, if they could have let her be just a tiny bit hopeful. 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by gutbuster
fixed some grammar issues

[Door County Cherry]

11 minutes ago, gutbuster said:

As shitty as things had been going for her it really didn't seem like such an awful resolution. Especially again, since Phillip again was presented as being a good man. Which is was one of her reasons for wanting Colin. She was so certain she couldn't grow to love Phillip or be happy with him, when she was okay with being with Colin who she didn't love or know all that well either. I understand her being upset and disappointed, but it would have been nice, in the context of the show and after everything she'd been through, if she could have let her be just a tiny bit hopeful. 

I think the reason she looked so glum is because I think the trauma of it all caught up with her.  A lot happened between her accepting Colin's proposal and accepting Phillip's proposal.

Had he showed up when she was looking for a better option than the old man, then she might have been much happier than the way she looked at the end of the season...assuming she hadn't heard bad things about him. 

But he showed up after she had been exposed to everyone via Lady Whistledown.  He showed up after/around the time she had the whiplash of thinking George would come back, then thinking he was abandoning her, and then finding out that he did love her but it's too late because he's dead.  He showed up after she thought she had gotten rid of the pregnancy.  She only accepted the proposal once she realized she was in the same position as she started out in. 

I hope something hopeful is what we get in the second season.  While Simon and Daphne were sort of "forced" into marriage, they were already totally into each other when that happened. But Philip and Marina would be one of my favorite marriage of convenience tropes where there were zero expectations but then something grows.

[katha]

Marina was just totally lost and desperate at that point and anyone presented to her as a "solution" in a marriage of convenience would look bad to her IMO. With Colin, at least she probably perceived it as having some sort of choice in the matter and he was more or less her age. That looks less threatening than marrying an older virtual stranger because there are really no other options anymore. At least options that would keep her respectable.

Phillip seems like a kind man, so hopefully they find happiness in their marriage, even though it is obviously not something either of them would have chosen without her pregnancy.

Edited January 3, 2021 by katha

[Growsonwalls]

My prediction is that Marina's marriage with Philip isn't exactly blissful but it's not miserable either. For one thing her baby is Philip's relative, so I would think Philip would be kind to the kid. He also seems like a decent, responsible sort. If you look at the miserable marriages women in those days were trapped in Marina's ending isn't that bad. 

Marina will also be close to her own family which is very important. Back in the day with no domestic violence shelters or legal recourse many daughters ended up going back to live with their own families when marriages became intolerable.

[quarks]

In Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, Elinor Dashwood, her mother, Mrs. Dashwood, and Mrs. Jennings all assume that Marianne is engaged to Willoughby because Marianne is writing letters to Willoughby. All three of them assume that Marianne knows full well that she should not be writing anything to Willoughby unless the two of them are engaged. 

In that same book, Elinor Dashwood never writes to Edward Ferrars, the man she eventually marries, because they are not engaged. He has, however, written to Lucy Steele - letters which Elinor takes as firm proof that Edward and Lucy are engaged. 

In Pride and Prejudice, when Mr. Darcy decides to write a letter to Elizabeth explaining just why Wickham sucks, he makes a point of not sending it through the post, but rather waiting until he can see Elizabeth in complete privacy, to ensure that no one sees that he is sending her a letter - and thus, ensuring that her reputation remains intact. Even Lydia, who is willing to run away with Wickham, so obviously not all that concerned about doing the right thing, never writes letters to any of the young officers she flirts with. Unmarried women did not correspond with unmarried men. 

Also, throughout most of Sense and Sensibility, numerous people who know Edward Ferrars fairly well - including Lucy Steele, the woman he's engaged to - have never met his brother. (That might have been deliberate on Edward's part, granted - once Lucy does meet Robert, she dumps Edward for Robert.) At the start of Emma, almost no one in the neighborhood has met Frank Churchill, the son of one of the local residents, or Jane Fairfax, the niece and granddaughter of two local residents.

I bring that up because it wasn't clear to me that Marina could recognize Sir Philip on sight. It seemed more that she heard that one of the Cranes was there, got excited, looked down - and realized that wasn't George, but given the name and - I assume - a family resemblance - it had to be Sir Philip. That seemed to fit her later statements that she didn't know Sir Philip.

So although I really can't give Bridgerton much credit for historical accuracy, this part - how hard it would have been for Marina to write Sir Philip (especially before she knew about George's death), and Marina not knowing Sir Philip, or at the very least, not knowing him well - seems to be straight from Jane Austen.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

I bring that up because it wasn't clear to me that Marina could recognize Sir Philip on sight. It seemed more that she heard that one of the Cranes was there, got excited, looked down - and realized that wasn't George, but given the name and - I assume - a family resemblance - it had to be Sir Philip. That seemed to fit her later statements that she didn't know Sir Philip.

No, that’s really not what happened. For one thing, she didn’t hear that one of the Cranes was there. Pen literally says “we aren’t expecting any callers.” They look out of the window out of curiosity.

Secondly, Marina wasn’t expecting George - she basically told Daphne that without the Duke’s input, she was probably wasting her and then she had an abortion. Not the actions of someone who thought her baby daddy would show anyday soon.  

Thirdly, Marina was thinking at that point in time that George was the user that jilted her and left her literally holding his baby. If George had come, it was because Daphne had used her connections to drag his loser ass to London. She won’t have been excited to see him, but bitter. Again, she’d just had an abortion. She was a far cry from the hopeful romantic girl she’d started the story as.  

Lastly, the carriage was unmarked, so it’s not like she saw a Crane emblem or such and immediately knew it was George’s.
 

Tl dr, she did recognize Phillip Crane, but knowing Phillip as George’s brother doesn’t mean she’d know him enough to want to marry him. Especially at a time, that as others put so clearly, Marina was emotional exhausted. 
 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by ursula

[Starleigh]

Just one thing to point out...once news of her pregnancy got out, she was "ruined" forever. Even if she had miscarried, she no longer had a "good" name. So, she needed to marry somebody ASAP especially once her engagement with Colin was broken off. 

[ursula]

7 minutes ago, Starleigh said:

Just one thing to point out...once news of her pregnancy got out, she was "ruined" forever. Even if she had miscarried, she no longer had a "good" name. So, she needed to marry somebody ASAP especially once her engagement with Colin was broken off. 

She didn’t care. She was ruined and she was prepared to live with that. People really seem to downplay and/or ignore just how young Marina is and how much emotional trauma she lived through in a short period of time. 

[Growsonwalls]

On a lighter topic anyone notice Simon's aversion to doing things behind closed doors? With servants everywhere you;d think the Duke and Duchess would prefer to have their private moments in ... private. But Simon goes down on Daphne in the stairwells, and then in this episode shows up in Daphne's bedchambers for makeup sex without closing the doors either. I assume they regularly put on a show for their servants?

[Katsullivan]

So until now, I didn’t expect anyone to take the position that Lady Featherington was right to fake that letter to break Marina’s heart. Of all the morally ambiguous actions she committed, I thought that was the one thing that least excusable. Is the point of absolving Lord and Lady Featherington of blame to make Marina solely responsible for her tragedy and therefore easier to condemn?

4 hours ago, gutbuster said:

She was so certain she couldn't grow to love Phillip or be happy with him, when she was okay with being with Colin who she didn't love or know all that well either. I understand her being upset and disappointed, but it would have been nice, in the context of the show and after everything she'd been through, if they could have let her be just a tiny bit hopeful. 

Marina was too used to bad things happening to her to be hopeful. 

 

[quarks]

16 minutes ago, ursula said:

No, that’s really not what happened.

I went back to episode 8 to rewatch the specific scenes. Here is what happened:

1. Penelope enters Marina's room, to find Marina packing, convinced that she is no longer pregnant. Marina says that she should have felt something from the pregnancy by now, suggesting that at this point, she's probably about four to five months along. 

2. They can hear a horse/carriage clattering outside. Penelope says, "That is odd; we weren't expecting any callers today," and goes to the window to look down. Marina joins her. They look down.

3. Sir Philip steps out of his carriage. Penelope and Marina can clearly see his face and those of the footmen and the carriage driver.

4. When Marina sees his face, she makes a small sound.

5. Penelope says, "Marina, are you quite well?"

6. Marina backs away from the window.

7. The scene cuts to Daphne's boring life. 

8. Lady B and Daphne run into Lady F. Their conversation is interrupted when the servants say that a Mr. Crane - not a Sir Crane - has arrived at the house. Daphne assumes this must be George.

9. Daphne, Lady F. and Lady F's maid return to the house. (Lady B is not in this scene, for whatever reason.) Lady F says:

"Mr. Crane, how delightful to make your acquaintance. I had no idea a soldier such as yourself was coming to town. And, well, Miss Thompson has not received any correspondence from you in quite some time."

Sir Philip: "Nor would I have expected her to, my lady."

Lady F: "I beg your pardon?"

Marina: "That man is not who you believe him to be, Lady Featherington."

Philip starts explaining things; Marina flees the room. 

10. Marina says that a) Philip found a half-written letter addressed to her, but, b) could only find out where Marina was because of Daphne's enquiries.  

11. Marina then tries to convince us that George wasn't a complete jerk. 

12. Cut to Eloise/the modiste and the boxing people. When we return to the Fs, Sir Philip wants to speak to Miss Thompson. 

13. Scene, including two footmen, Sir Philip, Marina, Lady F, Penelope, and the other two F girls:

Marina: Marry you. I do not understand.

Philip: After my brother clearly took liberties with your [pause] virtue, I would merely be doing my duty. [Marina looks horrified.]

Lady F: A respectable marriage! Miss Thompson! What a fine thing! Sir Philip inherited the Crane title. He has a perfectly adequate estate to support you and perhaps your distant cousins too --

Marina: I cannot. I do not know this man. I do not love this man. I cannot marry this man.

Philip: George cared for you very much, Miss Thompson, and that will never change. But he would have wanted you to be looked after. He would have wanted you to be supported. Allow me to realize my late brother's wishes.

Marina: I thank you for your offer, Sir Philip, but I believe you should now take your leave.

Philip: Very well. I wish you all the best, Miss Thompson. [Philip leaves.]

Cut to Daphne/Simon, a family scene with the Bs, and the boxing match.

When we return to the Fs, we see them spending some of the boxing money on new clothes; Lady F says that Philippa has a dowry again. A couple minutes later, Marina realizes that she is still pregnant. Preparations continue for the Hastings ball. Marina confirms that she's still pregnant. She does not go with the Fs to the ball. The Fs return to find the servants and Bow Street Runners in their downstairs hall; Lady F asks about Miss Thompson, who appears quietly on the stairs, and learns that her husband is dead and the money is gone. Cut back to Simon/Daphne, Colin taking off, and Penelope and Eloise, before returning to Marina and Lady F.

Marina: How did you do it? How did you endure 2 and 20 years of marriage without love?

Lady F: You find things to love, my dear. Small things. Big things too, like your babies. And eventually they add up to be enough. You are strong, Miss Thompson. Perhaps even more so than me. You will do well.

Marina rides off in a carriage with Sir Philip, without saying anything else.

-----------------

That's exactly what happened, word for word. 

We can perhaps infer that Marina does recognize Sir Philip when he steps out of the carriage. But we don't know that - especially since there's at least three other reasons for her to look concerned and step back:

1. She recognizes Sir Philip's servants (again, they are visible from the window, and may have previously worked for George). They aren't with George. Bad sign. 

2. She realizes that the man that just got out of the carriage has a strong resemblance to George - but isn't George. Bad sign.

3. She has a sudden bad feeling about this (which, given that the owner of the house that she's currently staying in is about to get murdered, and that she knows the Fs are having some financial difficulties, is a reasonable response.)

Meanwhile, we have several indications that Marina and Sir Philip have never even met before:

1. Sir Philip's proposal, which is entirely about his brother, not Marina.

2. Sir Philip not once saying something along the lines like, "Well, yes, this is unexpected. But when we met back in X, I thought you were quite charming."

3. The servants not knowing which Sir or Mr. Crane this was. (That doesn't rule out a previous meeting, of course, but also suggests that Marina didn't enter the room and go, "Oh, Sir Philip!")

4. Marina telling Daphne - and us - that Sir Philip would not have found her if Daphne hadn't started to make enquiries. Sir Philip had George's letter, addressed to Marina - and yet had no idea how to find her. That more than strongly suggests that he had no idea who Marina was. "Marina" is not that common of a name. 

5. Marina not writing Sir Philip to find out what happened to George (see the whole Jane Austen thing about unmarried women not writing to men, which would be especially true if the two of them had never met).

6. And the biggie - Marina flat out saying that she doesn't know Sir Philip, something Sir Philip doesn't contradict.

And again - Jane Austen gave us plenty of examples of people never meeting family members of people they know well in at least three books (and arguably Northanger Abbey). So, yeah, based on what was said and not said, I think it's at least possible - even probable - that Marina and Philip had never met before episode 8.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

So until now, I didn’t expect anyone to take the position that Lady Featherington was right to fake that letter to break Marina’s heart. Of all the morally ambiguous actions she committed, I thought that was the one thing that least excusable. Is the point of absolving Lord and Lady Featherington of blame to make Marina solely responsible for her tragedy and therefore easier to condemn?

I think you’re probably on to something there. I too was surprised that it was even a discussion. I also didn’t expect the statement “if only someone had reached out to Phillip Crane earlier, Marina could have avoided so much heartbreak and scandal” would have been so controversial. But apparently, Marina shouldn’t be seen in a sympathetic light from any perspective? I just don’t get it.  

 

 

[bijoux]

I don't get the big difference between Marina not knowing Phillip at all and knowing him by sight from, let's say church, to be honest. Was introduced to him at county fair and went separate ways is not really knowing. Since Marina’s thing with George was obviously a secret, he clearly didn't take her to hang out with his younger brother. 

Spoiler

In the books Phillip was on track to becoming a university professor before George's death, so it is possible that they literally didn't know each other. 

Still don't see why the distinction would be very relevant. 

[shapeshifter]

Thank goodness this isn't the old TVWoP boards, so I don't have to read all 5 previous pages. I did speed-read p. 1 and skimmed most of this one, and may at least go back and read all of @Door County Cherry's posts because they consistently align with my thoughts while also pointing out things I missed. 

Anyhoo, they had somehow initially presented Penelope to us as someone we could suspect of being Lady Whistledown (I think because she was more into her "studies"?), but then soon made that seem impossible, so A+ for plot denouement there.
How old is Pen? Barely 19? Today there are many supposedly more mature posters on social media making great efforts to gain notoriety and monetize clicks by publishing "scandals" much more readily than Lady Whistledown, which I think is a point here.
But wow, the director sure took a turn for the Evil with Pen's character in that final carriage view with her smiling so carefreely. 
And "Pen"? Seriously? And we didn't suspect all along that she was the writer with the Pen? No. I guess we didn't.

 

There were so many things in the childbirth scene that tried to be better versions of what I hate in most childbirth scenes but were almost worse. *Sigh*

 

Jonathan Bailey/Anthony was impossibly good looking. I guess it was the hair and the profile, which the director and camera kept focusing on. Seemed like a waste with his stupid (IMO) story line. 

 

I don't really understand the whole death of Lord Featherington. When he entered the boudoir where the scar-faced Bad Guys sat to get their due, the camera showed a bottle of poison on the table. 
I am guessing he was there at all --with his fortune from the fixed fight-- only because he was a gambling addict, and the Bad Guys anticipated that, right? Or, at least they figured if he did show up, they deserved to get their money back since he was going to blow it all anyway? I guess he drank the poison to save face? Or because he couldn't face  his family after having lost the money again? 
I guess leaving it vague was a means of conveying that he wasn't worth more of our time.

 

I am not worked up about Marina as some are. If anything, I am annoyed that in the end she seemed to be nothing more than a pregnant (in every sense of the word) plot device.

 

The best scene with Simon was with Daphne's youngest siblings, so, since Daphne and Simon certainly have a perfect sex life too, we can be sure they will live happily ever after. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by shapeshifter

[bijoux]

Penelope's mother rushed her coming out, so she's 17 tops. 

I agree Anthony is stupid hot. Beautiful bone structure. I just hope next season leans into the stupid part less. He was wasted on that. 

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

So until now, I didn’t expect anyone to take the position that Lady Featherington was right to fake that letter to break Marina’s heart. Of all the morally ambiguous actions she committed, I thought that was the one thing that least excusable. Is the point of absolving Lord and Lady Featherington of blame to make Marina solely responsible for her tragedy and therefore easier to condemn?

I cannot speak for the person who posted the comment nor their motives. But I didn't interpret it as a comment on Marina or an attempt to make her seem unsympathetic.  Marina, though a party to her own situation, was definitely not more than naive. Her George, though apparently willing to do the honorable thing, would have definitely been far more knowledgeable than Marina (even a country girl who might glean minimal understanding would have been generally as woefully under informed about sex and pregnancy as any other girl of her class). And the sod took off for the war without marrying her despite having to know pregnancy was at least a possibility. #NoSympathyForDumbDeadGeorge

As I read it, pointing out that Lady F's had reasons for her actions were not more than just that.  Time was certainly of the essence and Marina was doggedly determined to wait on George.  From Lady F's perspective, George had not replied to Marina in more weeks than was reasonable to wait and continuing with what she view as a fantasy was wasting what time Marina had.

She had no idea he was dead.  In fact, if she or Marina had known he was dead, it would likely have led to the same actions.* Neither of them had any notion Sir Philip was out there with the intent of honoring his brother's obligations.*(I will not rehash the reasons Lady F was not in a position to nor in possession of any reasonable arguments to contact Sir Philip even if there was such a hope.)

To Lady F, the forged letter was a means of hastening a realization that she believe Marina would have to come to eventually but appeared likely to take too much time in reaching.  So what she did was practical, if heartless and even cruel. It does not diminish the harshness or cruelty of her act.  Nor does it absolve her of her duplicity; it merely explains it as the result of being jaded as opposed to intrinsically born of malice or villainy.  It paints her as a deeply flawed person rather than a caricature. 

*Marina herself noted that it was ultimately immaterial when Penelope showed her evidence that the letter was forged. Absent George coming back and marrying her, she had very few options.

Edited January 3, 2021 by RachelKM

[ouinason]

Marina was pragmatic, but wrong.  Lady F was pragmatic, but wrong. Pen was idiotic and wrong.

[nomodrama]

5 mins into episode 1 I had dubbed this show as Gossip Girl set in the 1800s. I find it fascinating that for the all musing on Shonda Rhimes (whose shows I try and avoid at all costs) television creating genius, this was such of regurgitation of things that have already been done in shows before. The from the concept of the secret all knowing gossip column to the historical period piece using modern music played instrumentally. 

I feel like there were some double standards in the way that the Daphne/Marina situations are being judged.....

Don't trick your husband into ejaculating inside you and getting you pregnant even if he's made you believe that he can't have kids (because he doesn't want to) and you know little to nothing about sex. It will be labeled as rape and insistently viewed with 2020 ideologies. 

But do plan on trying to seduce and trick a poor schmuck into marrying you when you are already pregnant, saddling him with an illegitimate child, because it's the 1800s and desperation/limited options makes it all ok. 

I'm sticking with the Marina sucked category....even when she was outed she still made out just fine, better than a woman really going thru this in those time probably would have. I don't think what Penelope did makes her a villain at all, she did her best to try and get both Marina and Colin to understand things - that didn't work so the truth had to come out. 

I don't understand Siena.....did she or did she not love Anthony? in the first couple episodes she makes it sound like she is upset that Anthony dumps her because she is looking for someone to fund her lifestyle, not because she particularly cares about him. Then in the end she giving serious Wallis Simpson vibes, like she wants Anthony to denounce his title so that they can live the way she is used to? 

I enjoyed many of the characters in this, the costumes, the settings. And yes, the Queen's wigs were amazing.

I actually liked Daphne and Simon (especially Simon....mmmmmm), I'm glad they got a happy ending. 

 

 

 

[quarks]

5 hours ago, bijoux said:

I don't get the big difference between Marina not knowing Phillip at all and knowing him by sight from, let's say church, to be honest. Was introduced to him at county fair and went separate ways is not really knowing. Since Marina’s thing with George was obviously a secret, he clearly didn't take her to hang out with his younger brother. 

  Reveal spoiler

In the books Phillip was on track to becoming a university professor before George's death, so it is possible that they literally didn't know each other. 

Still don't see why the distinction would be very relevant. 

It came up in the context of whether or not Marina (or anyone, really, but mostly Marina) should have written to Philip in the first place, or even if she could have written to Philip in the first place. I brought up the Jane Austen examples, and then was told that I was wrong about what happened and that Marina did know/recognize Philip. So I went back to check. That's it. 

Is it a big difference? No, since by the social rules of the time Marina wouldn't have been able to write either of them. But I think that had she met Philip and known him before this, it might have shaped her response a bit. And, also, I think the point made in the show was that in the end, Marina drove off with a complete stranger - not someone she knew, however vaguely, or enough to recognize. 

[Ohiopirate02]

8 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

So until now, I didn’t expect anyone to take the position that Lady Featherington was right to fake that letter to break Marina’s heart. Of all the morally ambiguous actions she committed, I thought that was the one thing that least excusable. Is the point of absolving Lord and Lady Featherington of blame to make Marina solely responsible for her tragedy and therefore easier to condemn?

 

The discussion here has nothing to do with the forged letter.   We are not trying to absolve the Fs and place all of the blame on Marina.   Marina is the victim of a patriarchal society with a damaging double standard.   She is also the victim of George Crane who left her without a plan.  He had time to marry her before leaving for France, but chose not to.  The army is not the British navy.  Men had time to tet their affairs in order before leaving.  He didnt even tell his younger brother about Marina before he departed. 

[katha]

I felt very sorry for Marina and didn't think her response was sullen or unreasonable at all. She was throwing herself at the mercy of a stranger. We hope that Phillip is kind and he seems that way, but it was an all-around horrible situation for her. Trying to manipulate Colin into marrying her without telling him the truth was also wrong, even if understandable in her desperation. But it is clearly presented as wrong in the show. Much of the discussion regarding Pen or Daphne is in the context of the show not really wanting to acknowledge that they do problematic things IMO, not necessarily implying that they are horribly worse than Marina or anything (well, IMO they really shot themselves in the foot with Penelope at the end there, but that is another tangent).

Edited January 3, 2021 by katha

[peachmangosteen]

14 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I hope something hopeful is what we get in the second season.  While Simon and Daphne were sort of "forced" into marriage, they were already totally into each other when that happened. But Philip and Marina would be one of my favorite marriage of convenience tropes where there were zero expectations but then something grows.

I would love this as well. I fear though that Marina won't even be in season 2, which I would be disappointed by since she is one of the few characters I actually find interesting. Pen is another character I find very interesting but I don't think they're going to go the way I want them to with her.

[Roseanna]

23 hours ago, Kim0820 said:

That's unfair to the man anyway; the society was patriarchal and men got away with more; but still it's not OK just because others do it and because it's the man who gets duped. 

I don't mean that it's OK but that sometimes there are no good options and one still had to make a choice. I can't blame an expecting mother to put her child before all else.

[DearEvette]

7 hours ago, nomodrama said:

5 mins into episode 1 I had dubbed this show as Gossip Girl set in the 1800s. I find it fascinating that for the all musing on Shonda Rhimes (whose shows I try and avoid at all costs) television creating genius, this was such of regurgitation of things that have already been done in shows before.

This is based on book, The Duke and I, written in 2000.  Even though Gossip GIrl made it to tv before this did, the book and Lady Whistledown actually pre-date the Gossip Girl books written by Cecily Von Ziegasar by a couple of years. 

No comment on Shonda's tv creating genius, LOL, but this show stuck to the book plot pretty closely.  Romance novels have some fairly recognizable conventions most especially 20 years ago when this was written during the height of the times when historical romances had moved away from their bodice ripping origins and was really peaking.  I also applaud the decision not to deviate too much from the source material as I think one of the goals was to appeal to the core of romance readers as well as to show that an adaptation of a under-served area to visual media (and one that is a billion dollar industry in and of itself)  could appeal to a broader base as well.

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by DearEvette

[OlderThanDirt]

This is all water under the footbridge because it isn't the way the story went on screen or in the books, but IMHO,  Marina's father did not send her to London because she was pregnant.  Marina herself didn't appear to know. So the letter Lady F should have written was to the Thompsons who  could have contacted the Cranes and arranged for George to come home or for a proxy marriage.  But then there would have been no storyline.

Would, could, shoulda...  Guess I'll just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[Katsullivan]

7 hours ago, nomodrama said:

I find it fascinating that for the all musing on Shonda Rhimes (whose shows I try and avoid at all costs) television creating genius, this was such of regurgitation of things that have already been done in shows before

I think it’s because her shows are guilty pleasure viewing. Other shows might be critically better but we the unwashed masses flock to Shondaland.

3 minutes ago, OlderThanDirt said:

Would, could, shoulda...

I read this as would, could, shonda. :)

[Starleigh]

15 hours ago, ursula said:

She didn’t care. She was ruined and she was prepared to live with that. People really seem to downplay and/or ignore just how young Marina is and how much emotional trauma she lived through in a short period of time. 

True but her whole life she would have been brought up to do anything to prevent her name getting dragged though the mud, to prevent scandal, to get married. There's simply no way she would have found another "gentleman" to marry in these circumstances, and she would have had a lifetime of that being pounded into her head.

[Bellatrix]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't mean that it's OK but that sometimes there are no good options and one still had to make a choice. I can't blame an expecting mother to put her child before all else.

Nor can I blame someone for putting themselves or their close friend before the unborn child of someone else.

[Growsonwalls]

It's important that Pen wasn't acting out of concern for Colin. She did what she did because she was jealous that Colin wasn't her boyfriend and she felt rejected. A concerned friend would have discreetly told Colin about the situation. Instead she embarrassed Colin, his family, her family, Marina. 

I just don't see how hurting that many people is justifiable. 

[ouinason]

Except we really don't know what exactly Penelope's motivation was, we can only speculate based on what we observe, and obviously Penelope is good at concealing things.

And frankly I only side with Colin in this.  His interests are at least clear.

[EyewatchTV211]

Right.  We don't know for sure Penelope's motivation.  She did try the discreet route with Colin earlier when she only told him Marina was in love with someone else.  That wasn't enough.  By the time the decision was made to elope to Gretna Green,  others have already explained why there was no realistic way to discreetly tell him in time.  So we don't definitively know, based on what was actually shown on screen,  if Penelope was doing it for Colin or doing it for herself. At this point her motivation is vague, which is why it has created so much debate. 

[shapeshifter]

25 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

It's important that Pen wasn't acting out of concern for Colin. She did what she did because she was jealous that Colin wasn't her boyfriend and she felt rejected. A concerned friend would have discreetly told Colin about the situation. Instead she embarrassed Colin, his family, her family, Marina. 

I just don't see how hurting that many people is justifiable. 

Agreed.
But if Pen was just 17, it’s quite likely she convinced herself that she was at least in part doing it for Colin’s benefit, and the other parts (hurtful to others, including some she cared about) she would have not thought any more about than any other angry teenager thinks about the ramifications of their reactions. 

[DearEvette]

3 minutes ago, EyewatchTV211 said:

That wasn't enough.  By the time the decision was made to elope to Gretna Green,  others have already explained why there was no realistic way to discreetly tell him in time. 

See, I will never buy this.  She is resourceful enough to slip out of the house at night to deliver her Lady W stuff.  She not a stupid girl.  She still could have stopped Colin and Marina from marrying without putting Marina on blast.  All she had to do was intercept them as they were trying to slip out to elope and tell Colin then.  She had that one final chance.

And if we are talking about timing, the fact of the matter is this whole thing is rather sloppy plotting because it would have made much more sense for her to try to stop them herself than it would be for her to reveal Marinas secret via Lady W given the tight timing.  Gretna Green is in Scotland.  If Marina and Colin were going to elope then ideally they would have been on the road at the ass crack of dawn to get out of dodge before anyone could discover they were missing.  It isn't like they could just leave in the middle of the day so that a lot of people could potentially see them.  The Whistledown papers are usually delivered by breakfast and it isn't like members of high society wake up super early.  By all rights, Colin and Marina should have already been on the road, half way to Scotland before anybody even got a chance to read the expose.

[LaJefaza]

So I'll raise a pointless, shallow, not-at-all serious issue that I don't think has been mentioned.

Obviously I know TV sex scenes can't be realistic, especially where time is concerned...but come on...Couldn't they at least try to make it look like something that would satisfy a woman? Even if we ignore the hard or rough surfaces they were positioned on... Simon wasn't even a one-minute man...dude was clocking 15 and 20 seconds! And we were expected to believe Daphne was experiencing waves of rapturous ecstasy even before he got done? Just INSTANTLY straight to the top of the stairway to heaven? Couldn't it have been edited to look like Simon was worthy of his alleged reputation?  Couldn't they have made it LOOK like dude was putting in a few minutes worth of work? Even way back in the 80s on good ol' Miami Vice, even Crockett and Tubbs would be shown crazily rolling with women from one end of a bed to the next and back again...you got the impression that as odd as the sex must have been, at least there was some sort of foreplay and it was of a respectable duration. We're supposed to believe Simon's been sexing it up across Europe for years, and THIS is his performance? Sex scenes are sometimes embarrassing, but it shouldn't be for this reason. I've microwaved lunch longer than the time it takes him to get in, get off and get out. And he's supposed to be some sort of notorious rake? Unimpressive.

It's a good thing he taught Daphne how to handle herself, because DAMN.

Edited January 4, 2021 by LaJefaza

[Enginerd]

2 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

So I'll raise a pointless, shallow, not-at-all serious issue that I don't think has been mentioned.

Obviously I know TV sex scenes can't be realistic, especially where time is concerned...but come on...Couldn't they at least try to make it look like something that would satisfy a woman? Even if we ignore the hard or rough surfaces they were positioned on... Simon wasn't even a one-minute man...dude was clocking 15 and 20 seconds! And we were expected to believe Daphne was experiencing waves of rapturous ecstasy even before he got done? Just INSTANTLY straight to the top of the stairway to heaven? Couldn't it have been edited to look like Simon was worthy of his alleged reputation?  Couldn't they have made it LOOK like dude was putting in a few minutes worth of work? Even way back in the 80s on good ol' Miami Vice, even Crockett and Tubbs would be shown crazily rolling with women from one end of a bed to the next and back again...you got the impression that as odd as the sex must have been, at least there was some sort of foreplay and it was of a respectable duration. We're supposed to believe Simon's been sexing it up across Europe for years, and THIS is his performance? Sex scenes are sometimes embarrassing, but it shouldn't be for this reason. I've microwaved lunch longer than the time it takes him to get in, get off and get out. And he's supposed to be some sort of notorious rake? Unimpressive.

It's a good thing he taught Daphne how to handle herself, because DAMN.

And there's usually NO foreplay other than a saucy look and a quick kiss maybe. Clothes off, have at it, done. They should at least do a little more lead-up and then more camera cuts to slightly different positions to imply that it's lasting longer.

[Growsonwalls]

8 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

So I'll raise a pointless, shallow, not-at-all serious issue that I don't think has been mentioned.

Obviously I know TV sex scenes can't be realistic, especially where time is concerned...but come on...Couldn't they at least try to make it look like something that would satisfy a woman? Even if we ignore the hard or rough surfaces they were positioned on... Simon wasn't even a one-minute man...dude was clocking 15 and 20 seconds! And we were expected to believe Daphne was experiencing waves of rapturous ecstasy even before he got done? Just INSTANTLY straight to the top of the stairway to heaven? Couldn't it have been edited to look like Simon was worthy of his alleged reputation?  Couldn't they have made it LOOK like dude was putting in a few minutes worth of work? Even way back in the 80s on good ol' Miami Vice, even Crockett and Tubbs would be shown crazily rolling with women from one end of a bed to the next and back again...you got the impression that as odd as the sex must have been, at least there was some sort of foreplay and it was of a respectable duration. We're supposed to believe Simon's been sexing it up across Europe for years, and THIS is his performance? Sex scenes are sometimes embarrassing, but it shouldn't be for this reason. I've microwaved lunch longer than the time it takes him to get in, get off and get out. And he's supposed to be some sort of notorious rake? Unimpressive.

It's a good thing he taught Daphne how to handle herself, because DAMN.

There are a few scenes where it seems that Simon is going down on her first. And that type of sex tends to lead to quicker orgasms for women. So maybe Simon takes care of her first and then goes in for the 15 second pump? 

I'm surprised they had an "intimacy coordinator" who choreographed these scenes. 

[peachmangosteen]

53 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm surprised they had an "intimacy coordinator" who choreographed these scenes. 

That person is very bad at their job lol.

[bijoux]

But in the spirit of fairness, I think the job of an intimacy coordinator is to make the actors feel comfortable. 

[nodorothyparker]

10 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

Sex scenes are sometimes embarrassing, but it shouldn't be for this reason. I've microwaved lunch longer than the time it takes him to get in, get off and get out. And he's supposed to be some sort of notorious rake? Unimpressive.

This is why I've been scratching my head every time I've seen people elsewhere raving about the "soft core" in this. Yes, Simon is very very pretty. But as I've said when asked about it, it's entertaining escapism with pretty people in pretty (albeit sometimes inaccurate) costuming who apparently have never heard of foreplay.

[Growsonwalls]

I don't know how to put this delicately ... foreplay isn't for everyone. "A friend" (aka me) doesn't really care for it. And sometimes quickies do produce a great orgasm.

But I think what is problematic about the sex scenes is they're meant to be rather romantic and swoon-worthy and they are so short. 

The thing that bugs me is that on the wedding night they actually showed how many layers of clothing had to be removed. But after the wedding does Daphne just wear loose wrap dresses that slip right off with no underwear? 

[katha]

LOL, it jives with the show's rather old-fashioned vibe though. They pretend to be all modern and edgy and "sexy", but the series is rather retro and safe for all that. So that whole "Teheee! There's sex! And naked people!" attitude really clicks with that. It's the most scandalous show from 1987. 😉 Or 1975, even.

Edited January 4, 2021 by katha

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I don't know how to put this delicately ... foreplay isn't for everyone. "A friend" (aka me) doesn't really care for it. And sometimes quickies do produce a great orgasm.

But I think what is problematic about the sex scenes is they're meant to be rather romantic and swoon-worthy and they are so short.

But is it likely that an experienced Regency girl willing and ready to be f-ed rightaway?   

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I don't know how to put this delicately ... foreplay isn't for everyone. "A friend" (aka me) doesn't really care for it. And sometimes quickies do produce a great orgasm.

My now nearly-pre-historic memories of being part of a couple are of many mutually fulfilling quickies after falling into a routine —not unlike we saw around the Duke’s estate —albeit minus any painful staircase interludes. 

In the portrait painting scene, when the newlyweds are still on the outs, when the artist directs Simon to put his hand on Daphne’s shoulder, I interpreted her look into his eyes as conveying a shudder of arousal, and found the artist’s comment of it being “the picture of devotion” an amusing euphemism. 

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, katha said:

LOL, it jives with the show's rather old-fashioned vibe though. They pretend to be all modern and edgy and "sexy", but the series is rather retro and safe for all that. So that whole "Teheee! There's sex! And naked people!" attitude really clicks with that. It's the most scandalous show from 1987. 😉 Or 1975, even.

I like a female character who is active in sex, but then she should be as modern in other ares too. It's the old-fashioned plot "the virgin and the rake" which I don't like to repeated in 2020ies and so badly.

Pamela and Clarissa by Samuel Richardson were actually very sexy although or because the hero/villain tried and the heroine resisted. And in Les liaisons dangereuses the seduction of the innocent virgin is quite hilarious.

[Ohiopirate02]

6 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

The thing that bugs me is that on the wedding night they actually showed how many layers of clothing had to be removed. But after the wedding does Daphne just wear loose wrap dresses that slip right off with no underwear? 

Daphne's wedding clothes would have been a bit more elaborate than her everyday country clothes--a few extra petticoats to make her skirts look just-so as she was walking down the aisle and on display.  Her dresses during her honeymoon would have been much simpler.  She and Simon were not receiving visitors, no need to get too dressed up.  She would have been wearing her shift, stays and a petticoat under her dress.  Easy to leave off the petticoat if Simon is that randy.  Also, underwear in this time period really didn't exist.  Women were commando under their skirts.  

[Growsonwalls]

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

But is it likely that an experienced Regency girl willing and ready to be f-ed rightaway?   

Well if we're being realistic well-bred girls like Daphne were not necessarily expected to enjoy sex. It was faintly unladylike, actually. They were supposed to close their eyes and think of England. 

Even Daphne's mother Violet who seems to have had a happy, fruitful marriage that produced 8 kids can't come up with anything for her daughter other than "dogs make puppies." 

The idea of female sexual pleasure is a pretty new one. Some scientists STILL don't think female orgasms exist.

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well if we're being realistic well-bred girls like Daphne were not necessarily expected to enjoy sex. It was faintly unladylike, actually. They were supposed to close their eyes and think of England. 

Even Daphne's mother Violet who seems to have had a happy, fruitful marriage that produced 8 kids can't come up with anything for her daughter other than "dogs make puppies." 

The idea of female sexual pleasure is a pretty new one. Some scientists STILL don't think female orgasms exist.

After they produced the heir and spare,  wellbred ladies could have their fun.  They just needed to keep the scandal down to a whisper.  Marriage was for dynastic and financial purposes.   

[Growsonwalls]

1 minute ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

After they produced the heir and spare,  wellbred ladies could have their fun.  They just needed to keep the scandal down to a whisper.  Marriage was for dynastic and financial purposes.   

Many of them found lovers in castrati, which were all the rage in the 18th century. The men were apparently sexually able but sterile. It was the best of both worlds.

[Bellatrix]

18 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well if we're being realistic well-bred girls like Daphne were not necessarily expected to enjoy sex. It was faintly unladylike, actually. They were supposed to close their eyes and think of England. 

Even Daphne's mother Violet who seems to have had a happy, fruitful marriage that produced 8 kids can't come up with anything for her daughter other than "dogs make puppies." 

The idea of female sexual pleasure is a pretty new one. Some scientists STILL don't think female orgasms exist.

Actually that attitude only goes back to the Victorian age. It was a Victorian invention. 

In the Middle Ages, for example, women were thought to be sexually voracious. Because they wanted their wombs to be filled.

[Door County Cherry]

7 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I don't know how to put this delicately ... foreplay isn't for everyone. "A friend" (aka me) doesn't really care for it. And sometimes quickies do produce a great orgasm.

Of course.  Some women are ready to go within 30 seconds and having an orgasm less than a minute later.  The problem is, that's the TV default version of sex while it's not the default version of how many (most?) women have sex.