E01.08: After the Rain

[Katsullivan]

45 minutes ago, ursula said:

It took me a while to understand that Eloise was supposed to be a younger sister. I thought she was a friend or cousin for the first few moments, before it clicked. Based on the show alone, I expect her and Benedict to be the siblings most likely to be queer (although I clock Eloise as asexual). 

Eloise also seemed to be ace. But the actresses who play her and Penelope have good chemistry together, and the future seasons could easily go there if they wanted to. It would also be a nice tongue-in-cheek nod to real-life stories of spinsters who lived together, grew old and died together, and even got buried in the same tomb... but historians insist were only "just very good friends". 😂

[Atlanta]

8 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Eloise also seemed to be ace. But the actresses who play her and Penelope have good chemistry together, and the future seasons could easily go there if they wanted to. It would also be a nice tongue-in-cheek nod to real-life stories of spinsters who lived together, grew old and died together, and even got buried in the same tomb... but historians insist were only "just very good friends". 😂

If they are sticking to book canon as much as possible, that wouldn't work. As someone who's read them, I don't want them to go there.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

Eloise also seemed to be ace. But the actresses who play her and Penelope have good chemistry together, and the future seasons could easily go there if they wanted to. It would also be a nice tongue-in-cheek nod to real-life stories of spinsters who lived together, grew old and died together, and even got buried in the same tomb... but historians insist were only "just very good friends". 😂

I’m open to both ideas (Eloise as ace or in a relationship with a woman) but I dislike Penelope too much to ship her with anyone so Eloise’s life partner will have to be someone else.

Edited December 31, 2020 by ursula

[chaifan]

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

To me, she looked at least 30 throughout. I wanted to love Eloise and I did love her characterization, but I found the actress so distracting. She looked far older than Daphne, she had a weird eye thing going on, and she moved her mouth in an annoying manor way too often. That’s all very superficial but damn if I didn’t find it all so distracting lol.

I just had to correct my earlier post - Claudia Jessie, who plays Eloise, is 31, not 35. 

The weird thing with her is that in the first episode I thought she looked really really young, like 14-15.  She was dressed like the other younger sisters, high ruffle collar with a giant bow, and the bow in her hair.  So I suppose that and her small stature made her look really young.  Then she spoke and sounded like Suzanne Pleshette, and it freaked me out! 

[RachelKM]

4 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

Possibly.  But would have likely assumed it was his.  There's also a difference between speculation and "knowledge."  

This is true.  But since Sir Philip is from apparently her home area (that is where she met George), people could reasonably suspect he is the father as well. Plus, being the baby's uncle, there is a chance the child will resemble his family.

Also, Marina is joining a family that does not seem to spend a great deal of time in London and returning to an area outside of London where Lady Whistledown isn't distributed and is unlikely to be discussed.  Consequently, she is less likely to run into people familiar with her scandal.  They will see a girl from their general region who got involved with a local second son who married her significantly after she became pregnant, but okay.  It could be perceived as him intending to set up a living, but then marrying her shortly after inheriting a position and income. 

[Growsonwalls]

I think the chances are better that the baby will be treated well since that is actually Philip's nephew or niece. So even if it's a marriage of convenience chances are Marina's baby will have a decent future. 

As for Eloise, the actress who plays her has way too deep of a voice. I understand that they sort of played it off as Eloise is a secret smoker but as I said, she has the vocal fry of someone who's been smoking a pack a day for 20 years. It was the same issue Florence Pugh ran into when she played Amy in Little Women. 

[bijoux]

People's voice are just like that sometimes. My niece sounded like that when she was a preschooler. It was totally creepy until I got used to it. I honestly haven't even noticed the issue here. 

[Katsullivan]

Did Mrs Featherington ever explain why she hid George’s letters? Since he accepted responsibility for the baby, wasn’t it a simple matter to send Marina to the Cranes and let her become their problem?

[ouinason]

She didn't hide the letters.  She snatched one of the earlier ones in order to forge one after he hadn't responded to her letter about the baby for a long while.

George never responded to the baby news at all because he died in the middle of writing her back.

[peachmangosteen]

I initially thought that Pen and Eloise were going to turn out to be in love with each other and that Benedict was going to have an affair with the artist. I was really surprised when neither ended up happening. I am loving the idea of Eloise being asexual though and I really hope the writers decide to go with that.

[Katsullivan]

9 hours ago, ouinason said:

She didn't hide the letters.  She snatched one of the earlier ones in order to forge one after he hadn't responded to her letter about the baby for a long while.

George never responded to the baby news at all because he died in the middle of writing her back.

Oh for some reason I thought that Penelope found hidden letters. This makes more sense. 

6 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I initially thought that Pen and Eloise were going to turn out to be in love with each other and that Benedict was going to have an affair with the artist. I was really surprised when neither ended up happening. I am loving the idea of Eloise being asexual though and I really hope the writers decide to go with that.

I shipped Pen/Eloise from their first episode, and I've gone back and forth whether I see Eloise more as ace or a lesbian who's still finding her way. I definitely want to see Benedict revealed as gay or bi. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Katsullivan

[RachelKM]

21 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Oh for some reason I thought that Penelope found hidden letters. This makes more sense. 

 

I think she found practice signatures and then compared an earlier letter from George to the forged letter and notices they were different despite the practice.

[Kim0820]

On 12/29/2020 at 3:15 PM, RachelKM said:

Also, please don't accuse everyone taking up for Penelope with "she's fat so it's fine."  That is definitely not my interpretation or motivation.  I may have affection for the character from the book.  But I'm not blind to the fact that she did something extreme with harsh consequences for many people, including herself but mostly for Marina and her baby. I'm just not incline to ascribe malice, jealousy, or indifference to Marina's plight to her motives.  And she had fewer options than people seem to think.

That can go both ways, and it is very easy to say a fat girl that does something like that is jealous.  

I don't think Colin was an "option" for Marina, as she wasn't being fair to him by duping him into it.   I don't think anyone has a duty to preserve that option.

On 12/29/2020 at 4:02 PM, ursula said:

The only thing we know for certain is that it wasn't Marina's first resort, and she only did it after Penelope had ruined not just hers, but the child's chances of living with any form of dignity and acceptance. Penelope didn't know that Marina was going to have an abortion. If we're going with the "naive little girl" Penelope theory (which I don't for the record), Penelope shouldn't even know that abortions were possible.

So Penelope did what she did, believing it would ruin a child's life for perpetuity and not caring because protecting the chance of a future with Colin was more important than the child's future.

Still this plan for Marina wasn't fair to Colin; so it doesn't seem right to assign Penelope with a duty not to tell him, one way or the other.  

On 12/29/2020 at 4:11 PM, ursula said:

What makes it especially gross is that these are both instances of white women screwing over people of color and walking away with everything they want. I'm not sure whether this was what they were going for with the diversity casting, but boy are the optics bad. 

When anyone says it is ahistorical to have black people as equals in Regency England, with titles, and being accepted in the ton completely, it is argued often that this is fantasy, it doesn't have to be historically correct.  It is indeed fantasy; there is no racism; no Bridgerton says a word about Daphne marrying a black man, no white character makes the least objection to any interracial marriage, business dealings and so on.  They are written as having been completely accepted.  So I cannot agree with the concept they are "screwing over people of color."  These fantasy people of color aren't presented as unfairly oppressed and get to give as good as they get.

On 12/30/2020 at 3:32 PM, DearEvette said:

Which is another reason why what Penelope did to Marina was so heinous because she not only blew up Marina's chance at marrying Colin, she took away all of Marina's options. Not every marriage was based on love, at that class, many were dynastic to shore up property and wealth.  

I don't necessarily think that what Penelope did as consciously malicious, but it does take a real lack of empathy and decency to deliberately burn down the life of someone who was already at their lowest and then to only feel bad for yourself.

Colin seems again overlooked; he was being duped; Marina's chance to marry him was not a fair one for him.  Marina's options don't have to include duping a man into marrying her. 

On 12/30/2020 at 3:38 PM, bijoux said:

The old guy didn't know about the child, did he? His inspection of Marina’s hips and teeth looked to me like he was checking her as the incubator for his future heir, npt that he knew she already had a bun in the over. I meam, really, how Marina didn't swoon from the romance of that moment, I'll never know. 

I think Mrs. F. said he knew - Marina made the point that she had a lot of young suitors and didn't have to settle for an old man.  Mrs. F. said the young men were courting, would not want her when they found she was pregnant, but this old man needed an heir and would accept that she was pregnant by another man.  

On 12/31/2020 at 12:40 AM, Nidratime said:

Marina and George ruined Marina's life. Marina was just spreading the ruin when she arrived in London and proceeded to agree to run away with Colin without telling him she was pregnant.

Yes!  It seems completely overlooked like Marina is a total victim of getting pregnant.  She did have choices that led to it happening.  It didn't just happen to her.  Women in that age knew the score on that.  And so did the men.  

[ursula]

33 minutes ago, Kim0820 said:

Still this plan for Marina wasn't fair to Colin; so it doesn't seem right to assign Penelope with a duty not to tell him, one way or the other.  

 

This is a false dichotomy. It wasn't a choice between Penelope keeping the secret OR writing it in Lady W. She had many ways and opportunities to tell Colin that didn't involve throwing Marina and her unborn child under the bus. 

 

33 minutes ago, Kim0820 said:

It is indeed fantasy; there is no racism;

...? A racist trope doesn't stop being racist because it's "fantasy". When the 100th genre show has a Black dude dying first, it doesn't matter if supernatural monsters aren't real. It still affects real life people - especially real life people who are on the oppressed side of the racial divide - to watch the trauma of watching Black people die like cannon fodder. So while fictional!Daphne loves fictional!Simon and their misunderstanding is based on regency romantic tropes... real life people are watching a White woman screw over a Black man, and her grievances be given more weight than his own... which echoes real life. Like I said, the optics are bad. 🤷‍♀️

 

33 minutes ago, Kim0820 said:

Yes!  It seems completely overlooked like Marina is a total victim of getting pregnant.  She did have choices that led to it happening.  It didn't just happen to her.  Women in that age knew the score on that.  And so did the men.  

Daphne enters into marriage literally knowing nothing about sex and this is taken as realistic, yet Marina is expected to "know the score"? It's interesting who gets the benefit of innocence and who doesn't.

Edited January 1, 2021 by ursula

[EyewatchTV211]

42 minutes ago, ursula said:

Daphne enters into marriage literally knowing nothing about sex and this is taken as realistic, yet Marina is expected to "know the score"? It's interesting who gets the benefit of innocence and who doesn't.

Marina came from the country. If she took any notice of farm animals as Colin suggests to Eloise in that awesome scene ....😉😂

[nodorothyparker]

Finally done. I can only assume since Daphne was basically strongarmed into inviting the Featheringtons to her ball, she didn't get a chance to note them on the color palette dress code. It was really gorgeous to look at with everyone else turned out from the palest of baby blues to Lady Danbury's rich plum and then there they were in their garish citrus-colored frocks. I really hope somebody thought to grab that painting in out of the rain before it was ruined.

Don't really have much on the anticlimactic Happily Ever After where our two leads finally learn to talk to each other and that sex can happen without hiding motives or pulling out. It was generally a decent enough wrapup for the season with one of the standouts for me being Sienna being clear-eyed that regardless of anything else they might feel for each other, she's fine with who she is, thank you very much, and wasn't interested in letting Anthony do a My Fair Lady on her just so she could go to the ball and be the subject of what you know would be plenty of scandalized looks,  furious gossip, and probably more than a few social cuts. Seriously, what is with the Bridgerton boys thinking they can introduce their mistresses to their sheltered sisters or bring them to their society events? They're not new here. The other standout was Lady Featherington telling Marina honestly about filling a life without love. Lady F at times has come up just short of parody of a Jane Austen mother, but she's also been brutally well executed. Hopefully, she's not about to find herself shifting from a Mrs. Bennet to a Mrs. Dashwood now that the worst has happened and the estate is about to pass to an outside heir.

Struggling to decide how I feel about the big reveal of Penelope as Lady Whistledown beyond thinking the show shot its wad too soon. I can see how the power and influence of being a Whistledown character would be incredibly seductive for a third daughter of a family that isn't especially well regarded and has often treated her like both a joke and burden, but I'm having trouble with some of the logistics of it. I've mostly had a real soft spot for Penelope through the show's run as she's been the character to most occupy the least loved daughter in a Jane Austen novel slot for me and now I have to reconsider that.

[Growsonwalls]

I hope Simon is in Season 2. That's just too much pretty to give up on the screen if he's not.

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I hope Simon is in Season 2. That's just too much pretty to give up on the screen if he's not.

I don't think there's any cause for fear. While Simon and Daphne were leads of this season, this was obviously an ensamble and it makes sense for a TV show. In books you can easily shift focus from one pair to another, but on TV you need more people to fill the time and catch interest. So I fully expect everyone who was in London at the end of this season to play a part in the next one. Aside from maybe Francesca, who was a blink and you'll miss her situation even this year.

 

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, Kim0820 said:

Colin seems again overlooked; he was being duped; Marina's chance to marry him was not a fair one for him.  Marina's options don't have to include duping a man into marrying her.

Thousands or rather millions of women have done just that. It's another thing whether it was fair. But in a society where having a child out of wedlock was a shame only to a woman, it's rather unfair to accuse the woman when she uses the best means to secure her and her child. 

That said, not all men were duped but married the woman knowing that the child she carried wasn't his. Neither all men, even if they didn't marry a woman who was expecting their child, left them without help but took care of her and the child.

[Soup333]

Eh, I have no interest in watching another season. The costumes were pretty and I loved some of the characters but didn’t care much about Simon/Daphne. I liked Pen but absolutely hated the Lady W reveal. It just doesn’t make any sense. I liked her character up until that point but finding out that she intentionally subjected her own family AND that of her best friend’s to repeated derision and scandal for months turned me off. After all the shit she talked about her own family I guess it’s realistic to believe she would betray anyone and everyone else, including a distant relative she had no real relationship with. 

I agree with the comment about the optics being bad. It’s a factor in why I won’t be watching whenever Netflix drops S2. 

[Avabelle]

Hated the Penelope reveal as Lady Whistledown. Firstly was this the case in the books? Secondly it takes her from being a loveable nice character to a bit of a manipulative bitch. Even the reveal had her expression being all smug and evil looking. Also, she just seems too young. 
 

Marina had a face like a slapped arse for the entire season. I get her predicament but her focus was all about her (and sometimes the unborn kid) - when she thought that she wasn’t pregnant anymore and she had the chance to save her cousins in ruin she still chose herself. She doesn’t strike me as thr romantic type even, the whole season she just seemed like a moan and I feel like even if she wasn’t pregnant this season her attitude would have been the same.

siena telling Anthony he needed to let her go made me laugh as she was giving him sex eyes at the fight which instigated the reunion. Great chemistry. The ending scene between them seemed pretty final so I assume she won’t be the female lead if the next series is about him.

[Kim0820]

17 hours ago, ursula said:

 

This is a false dichotomy. It wasn't a choice between Penelope keeping the secret OR writing it in Lady W. She had many ways and opportunities to tell Colin that didn't involve throwing Marina and her unborn child under the bus. 

 

...? A racist trope doesn't stop being racist because it's "fantasy". When the 100th genre show has a Black dude dying first, it doesn't matter if supernatural monsters aren't real. It still affects real life people - especially real life people who are on the oppressed side of the racial divide - to watch the trauma of watching Black people die like cannon fodder. So while fictional!Daphne loves fictional!Simon and their misunderstanding is based on regency romantic tropes... real life people are watching a White woman screw over a Black man, and her grievances be given more weight than his own... which echoes real life. Like I said, the optics are bad. 🤷‍♀️

 

Daphne enters into marriage literally knowing nothing about sex and this is taken as realistic, yet Marina is expected to "know the score"? It's interesting who gets the benefit of innocence and who doesn't.

Well, women knew they could not have sex before they got married or they could get caught pregnant, and that would be society-excluding in those days.  I do not think I said anything about Daphne.  Daphne was married by the time she had sex.  So I did not do what you are claiming.  

Fans can't have it both ways - they keep saying it's a fantasy and that's why it can be historically inaccurate and have black people as dukes and society members accepted completely in the ton.  That's what you passed over.  The casting race blind so we can think of them all as equal.  People "screw each other over" all the time, too.  If Marina was going to screw Colin over, that's OK and even her right, one of her options.   No one is supposed to see the POC in the cast as being victims; they are equal.  Daphne is not doing anything racist - no one not she or her family even  mentions that he's a black man.  Historical reality; her family would object.  His would object.  But this is not reality, we are told we should just shut up and enjoy it and not make comments that it is unrealistic for that time period.  OK then, but there's no oppression, just equal people screwing each other over.

Any way Colin found out would throw Marina under the bus.  But he deserved to know.  He was getting cheated.  It is not screwing Marina over that she was thwarted in screwing Colin over.   

[Kim0820]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Thousands or rather millions of women have done just that. It's another thing whether it was fair. But in a society where having a child out of wedlock was a shame only to a woman, it's rather unfair to accuse the woman when she uses the best means to secure her and her child. 

That said, not all men were duped but married the woman knowing that the child she carried wasn't his. Neither all men, even if they didn't marry a woman who was expecting their child, left them without help but took care of her and the child.

That's unfair to the man anyway; the society was patriarchal and men got away with more; but still it's not OK just because others do it and because it's the man who gets duped.  No one would think it fair for Colin to promise a girl he'd marry her, sleep with her and then back out. 

And it takes it another step where there is argument that Penelope had no right to tell Colin and remove that option for Marina.  

[Growsonwalls]

22 minutes ago, Kim0820 said:

Any way Colin found out would throw Marina under the bus.  But he deserved to know.  He was getting cheated.  It is not screwing Marina over that she was thwarted in screwing Colin over.   

Ok here's a delicate moral predicament: I'm never convinced someone "should know" if the outcome will just cause meaningless pain and heartache. 

Like if Colin was dopey enough to accept that a 6 month pregnancy results in in a full-term baby, and that the baby looks nothing like him, he could have been happy with Marina and the baby. Tongues would have wagged and there would have been snickers but the Bridgertons were from a good family and over time that stuff would have subsided. There was no 23andme back then.

[ursula]

44 minutes ago, Kim0820 said:

I do not think I said anything about Daphne.  Daphne was married by the time she had sex.  So I did not do what you are claiming.  

Daphne didn’t know anything about sex before she got married. Eloise and Penelope didn’t know where babies come from. That’s not my personal claim - that’s the story. All these girls are prepared for marriage without knowing how sex works. We’re expected to accept that as the reality of this time... Yet you somehow believe that Marina who hadn’t even been out on a season when she slept with Sir George should have known about sex. You’re apparently fine with the assumption that all these coincidentally white debutantes were really that naive about their own bodies but somehow the coincidentally Black girl who was even younger than Daphne should have “known” better.

As for the rest re:race, since nothing you wrote in anyway addresses the point I made, I have nothing further to say. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by ursula

[ursula]

7 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Ok here's a delicate moral predicament: I'm never convinced someone "should know" if the outcome will just cause meaningless pain and heartache. 

This. I mean Colin should probably know that it was his good friend Penelope that is moonlightning as the Gossip rag that not only spilled the beans about Marina, but was also mocking his sister for months. If Marina keeping secrets is bad, then why is it OK for Penelope to keep her identity a secret and use her friendship with the Bridgertons to as source for gossip fodder? The argument that Penelope is just Telling the Truth, ignores the fact that her platform is the biggest Lie of the story. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by ursula

[ouinason]

it is not ok to use someone for money and power, lie to them, pass off a child that isn't theirs, as long as they don't find out.  Let me steal from a little old lady who trusts me, as long as she doesn't find out, and see if that argument holds.  

I don't defend Penelope, but that idea is not morally justifiable on any level.

[ursula]

43 minutes ago, ouinason said:

it is not ok to use someone for money and power, lie to them, pass off a child that isn't theirs, as long as they don't find out.  Let me steal from a little old lady who trusts me, as long as she doesn't find out, and see if that argument holds.  

No, it's definitely not OK to use someone for money and power but that's not what Marina was doing. If she just wanted money and power, she could have had it with any of the old farts Mrs F was parading her to. She wanted someone who was kind, and would be a good dad to her and her kid. She wanted someone she liked, and she was going to be a good wife to Colin. She wasn't marrying him because he was a gullible dupe but because she genuinely liked him and thought they'd have a good life together. He wasn't going to get a bad deal out of it. 

She should have told Colin the truth* but in the society she lived in, with the choices she had, she didn't think she could risk it. 

 

*Marina's tragedy is, I think, that people pushed her to scheming and lying when the truth would have literally set her free. If the Fs had tried to contact the Cranes the moment she stopped her courses instead of hiding her and forging fake break-up letters, literally the whole story could have ended in one episode.  If she had told Colin the truth, he'd have eloped with her and claimed the child, and even with Lady W's expose, people would just believe that Colin was the father, and they had a shotgun wedding. As Lady B told Daphne "it happens more than society likes to admit".

It's also kind of ironic that when Marina finally decides to stick to her integrity and not marry Sir Phillip (what she thought at the time) under the pretext of still being pregnant, she also gets condemned.

Edited January 2, 2021 by ursula

[Door County Cherry]

Yeah if she were after money and power, then I think the older guy would have been a better match as he was a titled lord, if I recall correctly.  Colin isn't that. 

[bijoux]

I fall on the side of Colin likes to think he would have married her knowing about her pregnancy, but would he really? It's impossible to know, really. Even if Colin were to ruminate on this later, ai don't think even he could say for certain. 

[Growsonwalls]

Marina and Colin probably would have had a pretty happy marriage, all things considered. There were lots of out of wedlock kids at the time. People made arrangements for themselves and Colin was a good arrangement. They liked each other and were compatible -- at the time that was all a woman could have hoped for.

Pen/LadyW didn't privately tell Colin *as a friend* about Marina's condition . Had she done so Colin could have made an informed decision. I suspect he would have gone ahead with the wedding. She splashed it all over her gossip rag. She embarrassed her family, the Bridgertons, Marina. It was IMO a very cruel solution to a problem that wasn't her business. 

[ursula]

11 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I fall on the side of Colin likes to think he would have married her knowing about her pregnancy, but would he really? It's impossible to know, really. Even if Colin were to ruminate on this later, ai don't think even he could say for certain. 

I think Anthony's relationship with Sienna and even Daphne and Simon in a way, show that people were a lot less rigid about sex and morals than "Society" likes to pretend.  

And Colin was in a "I'm a big boy, I'm old enough to make my own decisions and marry and settle down" trip at the time. Marina's story would have made her even more attractive - he wasn't just marrying this pretty girl he liked, he was rescuing her! What really hurt him was that she lied to him, the idea that she didn't love him back, and was just using him. 

11 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Pen/LadyW didn't privately tell Colin *as a friend* about Marina's condition . Had she done so Colin could have made an informed decision. I suspect he would have gone ahead with the wedding.

And I am quite certain this is why she did it. Because there was still a chance that after a brief falling out, Colin would marry Marina anyway.

Edited January 2, 2021 by ursula

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

After a brief falling out, Colin would marry Marina anyway.

I think so too. Remember men were not raised to be simpering dolts the way daughters were. They were encouraged to sow their wild oats and it's likely Anthony would have given Colin an intro to the facts of life already. So I suspect Colin would have been a bit shocked and saddened but might have also thought that Marina was pretty, that they were compatible, and he had the money to raise Marina's baby. 

The other thing that bothers me is that Pen's initial appraisal of Daphne was so cruel. That might make sense of Daphne was being all Regina George with her. But Pen has a good relationship with all the Bridgertons. 

[funnygirl]

For being one of the leads, I found Daphne to be the most uninteresting character. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by funnygirl

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

No, it's definitely not OK to use someone for money and power but that's not what Marina was doing. If she just wanted money and power, she could have had it with any of the old farts Mrs F was parading her to. She wanted someone who was kind, and would be a good dad to her and her kid. She wanted someone she liked, and she was going to be a good wife to Colin. She wasn't marrying him because he was a gullible dupe but because she genuinely liked him and thought they'd have a good life together. He wasn't going to get a bad deal out of it. 

She should have told Colin the truth* but in the society she lived in, with the choices she had, she didn't think she could risk it. 

 

*Marina's tragedy is, I think, that people pushed her to scheming and lying when the truth would have literally set her free. If the Fs had tried to contact the Cranes the moment she stopped her courses instead of hiding her and forging fake break-up letters, literally the whole story could have ended in one episode.  If she had told Colin the truth, he'd have eloped with her and claimed the child, and even with Lady W's expose, people would just believe that Colin was the father, and they had a shotgun wedding. As Lady B told Daphne "it happens more than society likes to admit".

It's also kind of ironic that when Marina finally decides to stick to her integrity and not marry Sir Phillip (what she thought at the time) under the pretext of still being pregnant, she also gets condemned.

Except, the Fs can't just write a letter to the Cranes and hope it all works out.  The truth wouldn't set  Marina free.  George could have married Marina before shipping out with the Army.  He already "ruined" her and knew there could be consequences.  George may have loved Marina, but he was not an honorable man.   During the Napoleonic Wars, British wives did travel with the army.  Chances are, there were wives with his regiment and one of them could have helped Marina come to France.  He had options before his death to make Marina an honest woman, but he never did. 

Sir Philip chose to do the honorable thing after Daohne (a duchess) and a general intervened.  A random letter from Lord F, a known gambler, would not have mattered much. 

[ursula]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

Except, the Fs can't just write a letter to the Cranes and hope it all works out.  The truth wouldn't set  Marina free. 

This is literally what happens at the end of the season after all the schemes and heartbreak. Sir Phillip finds Marina and she gets a respectable marriage. Like I’m not sure how you’re arguing “it won’t have worked out” when that’s what literally happened. 

George didn’t know she was pregnant before he left to fight “for King and Country”. She wrote him and told him, and his brother started looking for Marina because George had a half finished letter to her, claiming the child and making arrangements for her. Yes, he should have handled things better but even Lady B admits, “these things happen more often than society likes to think”. He was careless but he wasn’t - as Marina tells Daphne in tears - a villain.  

[Ohiopirate02]

Just now, ursula said:

This is literally what happens at the end of the season after all the schemes and heartbreak. Sir Phillip finds Marina and she gets a respectable marriage. Like I’m not sure how you’re arguing “it won’t have worked out” when that’s what literally happened. 

George didn’t know she was pregnant before he left to fight “for King and Country”. She wrote him and told him, and his brother started looking for Marina because George had a half finished letter to her, claiming the child and making arrangements for her. Yes, he should have handled things better but even Lady B admits, “these things happen more often than society likes to think”. He was careless but he wasn’t - as Marina tells Daphne in tears - a villain.  

The show does not establish if the Fs knew the Cranes. This is a time where one had to be introduced before correspondence could occur  especially of this nature.   Daphne goes to Lady Danburys party to meet the generals wife so she can establish a relationship with her and the general.   She is able to write to him because she is now a duchess and not Miss Bridgerton.  Off screen the general is able to give Sir Philip the necessary info on where to find Marina, or he instructs his staff to help Sir Philip.   Lady F does not have this power, and I suspect neither does her husband.   

[ursula]

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The show does not establish if the Fs knew the Cranes. This is a time where one had to be introduced before correspondence could occur  especially of this nature. 

Not to state the obvious but Marina knew the Cranes. 

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Off screen the general is able to give Sir Philip the necessary info on where to find Marina, or he instructs his staff to help Sir Philip.

Because Phillip was already looking for Marina. Daphne’s inquiries helped him find her sooner. There was no power involved here. Daphne didn’t make Phillip come and take responsibility for Marina. If the Fs had reached out to the Cranes, he’d have found Marina sooner.
 

Basically Marina always had someone who was going to take care of her but Mrs F was jaded and immediately assumed that Marina had been duped and dumped, and completely refused to explore the option of contacting the father.

 

Also until Mrs F sent the fake “Dear Marina” letter, she was planning to escape to the country. So Marina herself could have reached out to the Cranes if she hadn’t been made to believe that George didn’t want anything to do with her. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by ursula

[RachelKM]

25 minutes ago, ursula said:

Not to state the obvious but Marina knew the Cranes. 

 

It's established that Marina knew George Crane.  It does not necessarily follow that she knew anyone else in his family.  Their relationship was apparently not generally known even as a friendship.  

In fact, that Sir Philip was unable to locate Marina indicates that he and his family were not familiar with with the Thompsons.  It seems unlikely that they would not have at least some degree of acquaintance both being gentry from the same area, but the show told us that Sir Philip did not know where she was.  So he did not have access to the information that Marina was in London for the season or who with. 

[ursula]

4 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

 

It's established that Marina knew George Crane.  It does not necessarily follow that she knew anyone else in his family.  Their relationship was apparently not generally known even as a friendship.  

In fact, that Sir Philip was unable to locate Marina indicates that he and his family were not familiar with with the Thompsons.  It seems unlikely that they would not have at least some degree of acquaintance both being gentry from the same area, but the show told us that Sir Philip did not know where she was.  So he did not have access to the information that Marina was in London for the season or who with. 

I think I’m missing something because I’m not sure what point you’re making?

My argument was that Phillip was looking for Marina and if someone had contacted the Cranes earlier, he’d have found her and averted the scandal. If Mrs F hadn’t convinced Marina that George had used her and dumped her, she could have made that move herself. Just because the Fs or even the Ts weren’t personally acquainted with the Cranes didn’t stop them from reaching out to the family.

Again, not to state the obvious, but Phillip Crane just showed up at the Fs. His only introduction was his dead brother’s letters.

[RachelKM]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

Again, not to state the obvious, but Phillip Crane just showed up at the Fs. His only introduction was his dead brother’s letters.

Phillip apparently had his brother's letters and had done for some time. Several weeks elapsed between when Marina wrote to George and when Lady F forged a letter.   It was my understanding that Phillip came to the Featherington house after Daphne made inquiries through her acquaintance with the General and his wife.   

The implication is that Phillip didn't know who the Marina in his brother's letter was and/or didn't have access to information about her, something he would have if they were acquainted and lived in the same community.  Someone of his acquaintance would have mentioned that Miss Marina Thompson was in London with distant cousins. Or a discreet inquiry to the family solicitor would have provided him the information.

Also, I'm not certain what you are suggesting Lady F do.  Write to the Crane family (with whom she was not acquainted) and tell them Marina was pregnant with George's baby and he had failed to marrying her? Yikes.  That would not have been done.  Lady F didn't know George was dead.  All she knew was that, apparently, he hadn't responded to Marina's letter. I'm not sure what making an appeal to his family was supposed to have done.  

Phillip apparently felt honor bound because it was not only his brother's child, but a child said brother had intended to legitimize and raise.  If nothing else, Phillip might feel that, were the child to be a boy, he, Phillip, had inadvertently usurped his brother's intended heir by an accident of fate.  

It's possible Phillip would have felt the same obligation to his brother's child even without the letter.  But who knows? Either way, Lady F would have had even less reason to believe the Crane family would assist Marina than that George might.

[ursula]

14 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Phillip apparently had his brother's letters and had done for some time. Several weeks elapsed between when Marina wrote to George and when Lady F forged a letter.   It was my understanding that Phillip came to the Featherington house after Daphne made inquiries through her acquaintance with the General and his wife.   

Yes, I already said Phillip had been looking for Marina for some time and Daphne’s inquiries helped him find her. Like that was my point - that if Mrs F had been writing to the Cranes instead of forging letters, he’d have found Marina right away. 

 

14 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Also, I'm not certain what you are suggesting Lady F do.  Write to the Crane family (with whom she was not acquainted) and tell them Marina was pregnant with George's baby and he had failed to marrying her? Yikes. 

If Daphne can write to the General and demand the whereabouts of a random soldier, the Fs could have written to the Cranes and told them they had a Miss Marina Thompson of mutual acquaintance trying to get in touch with him. She didn’t need to go into every sordid detail in the letter, but give enough information to express the urgency. 

It’s a remarkable lack of imagination that thinks Mrs F writing a letter to the Cranes, asking after George on behalf of her ward, a young lady of his acquaintance would have been so impossible. 

At the very least if Marina hadn’t been convinced that George was a villain who had used her and dumped her, she’d probably have been “foolish” enough to contact the Cranes herself.
 

14 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

But who knows?

We literally know because this is what happened. My whole point has been if Mrs F hadn’t been so convinced in her own cynicism, Marina’s story would have ended the same way without the schemes and scandals. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by ursula

[RachelKM]

20 hours ago, ursula said:

We literally know because this is what happened. My whole point has been if Mrs F hadn’t been so convinced in her own cynicism, Marina’s story would have ended the same way without the schemes and scandals. 

What?  Philip had the unfinished letter.  He brought it with him to Marina.  I said we don't know what would have been done without the letter.  So it is not what happened. 

And no, Lady F could not have written to the Cranes and said "Miss Marina Thomson, an unmarried woman, would like to correspond with Sir George Crane.  Please direct our inquiries to him."  For one thing, thing Marina had his contact information.  She had been corresponding with him and he had responded at least once since that is how Lady F got a exemplar.   And unmarried ladies were not permitted correspond with any non-relative male to whom they were not engaged without it being a scandal in and of itself.

Again, it appears that Marina did not know this family.  Philip did not know how to locate her based upon the unfinished letter directed to her. If he had known Marina Thompson, he would have known how to locate her.  

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by RachelKM
So many typos... I probably still missed some.

[ursula]

11 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

What?  Philip had the unfinished letter.  He brought it with him to Marina.  I said we don't know what would have been done without the letter.  So it is not what happened. 

...? I’m not sure how or where this is coming from because I’ve never been arguing about a made up scenario where Phillip didn’t have George”s unfinished letter. Right from the start, this has been a discussion about the Fs making as much effort to contact Crane as he apparently had been to find Marina. 
 

11 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

And no, Lady F could not have written to the Cranes and said "Miss Marina Thomson, an unmarried woman, would like to correspond with Sir George Crane.  Please direct our inquiries to him." 

I’m pretty sure anyone could have written to the Cranes.  The post doesn’t need a wedding ring to post a letter. Your point really seems to be that Mrs F was capable of plotting and scheming to hide Marina’s pregnancy and get her quickly wed  but the real challenge was writing a letter.

 

11 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Philip did not know how to locate her based upon the unfinished letter directed to her. If he had known Marina Thompson, he would have known how to locate her.  

And again, this has been my point all along. That Phillip was looking for her while Mrs F was scheming and plotting.

Edited January 2, 2021 by ursula

[RachelKM]

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

...? I’m not sure how or where this is coming from because I’ve never been arguing about a made up scenario where Phillip didn’t have George”s unfinished letter. Right from the start, this has been a discussion about the Fs making as much effort to contact Crane as he apparently had been to find Marina. 

I brought it up.  It was the subject of my sentence prior to "But who knows?"  However, I will acknowledge that I could have been clearer.

My point was the Lady F had no reason to know that there was a Sir Philip out there with a letter from his elder brother indicating his desire to marry Marina.  So even in a world in which Lady F could contact the Cranes, she had absolutely no reason to believe there was any upside to contacting them if George, the title holder and head of the family, did not choose to contact her himself. 

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

And again, this has been my point all along. That Phillip was looking for her while Mrs F was scheming and plotting.

You made a statement made above that it was obvious "Marina knew the Cranes." (Emphasis mine.)  In my first response wherein I quoted this I pointed out that it is not clear that Marina knew the Cranes, only that she knew George Crane.  In fact, Philip's inability to locate her without receiving the communications initiated by Daphne, indicates that he did not know her. If they were acquainted, locating her in London for the Season would have been something he would have accomplished relatively easily either through local gossip or discrete inquiries through his solicitor.

[Ohiopirate02]

11 minutes ago, ursula said:

...? I’m not sure how or where this is coming from because I’ve never been arguing about a made up scenario where Phillip didn’t have George”s unfinished letter. Right from the start, this has been a discussion about the Fs making as much effort to contact Crane as he apparently had been to find Marina. 
 

I’m pretty sure anyone could have written to the Cranes.  The post doesn’t need a wedding ring to post a letter. Your point really seems to be that Mrs F was capable of plotting and scheming to hide Marina’s pregnancy and get her quickly wed  but the real challenge was writing a letter.

 

The Cranes and the Feathingtons are complete strangers.   Even if Lady F broke protocol to write to the Cranes, why would they even read the letter, let alone believe the contents?  And then, what would she write to convey the situation without outing Marina as a ruined woman?

The Fs could not write the Cranes.  

[ursula]

11 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I brought it up. 

I see.

 

11 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

My point was the Lady F had no reason to know that there was a Sir Philip out there with a letter from his elder brother indicating his desire to marry Marina.  So even in a world in which Lady F could contact the Cranes, she had absolutely no reason to believe there was any upside to contacting them if George, the title holder and head of the family, did not choose to contact her himself. 

And my point will always be that she literally had nothing to lose by writing a letter with a chance of a good outcome. 

 

11 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

You made a statement made above that it was obvious "Marina knew the Cranes."

It was in response to the idea that the Cranes were such complete strangers that the Fs literally couldn’t find them.

Also, Marina did know the Cranes? Like is this also up for discussion? She obviously knew George. She knew Phillip on sight - recognizing him the moment he stepped out of the carriage. She went to Church with them. We don’t know how large that family was or how acquainted their families were but if the problem was an address to direct inquiries, Marina could have given it to them. Heck, if Mrs F hadn’t poisoned Marina’s mind, she could have written to him herself.

7 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Even if Lady F broke protocol to write to the Cranes, why would they even read the letter, let alone believe the contents? 

Ok, so now I’m imagining a scenario where Sir Phillip’s secretary gives him a letter from Lord and Lady F,  Esq (or whatever their fancy title is) and he screams “Good God! Strangers wrote to me! Into the fire, vermin!” 🤣🤣🤣

Edited January 2, 2021 by ursula

[peachmangosteen]

3 minutes ago, ursula said:

[Marina] obviously knew George. She knew Phillip on sight - recognizing him the moment he stepped out of the carriage. 

OK good. I was starting to think I had imagined that Marina knew exactly who George was before being told lol. In general though, Marina must have known the Cranes since they were from the same place and she went to church with them. And she obviously knew their address since she sent George letters.

[ursula]

@peachmangosteen Well she sent George letters to his war garrison or whatever (proving that the post doesn’t check for marital status to deliver mail), but everything else you said is correct. She knew George from Church. Their families don’t seem to know they were courting but if she wanted to get in touch with Phillip, she could have done so easily. After “George” sent her a letter basically saying “Dear Marina, lol, you’re a stupid girl and a loser”, it never even occurred to her. If Marina had had a Daphne in her life at the right time, someone who actually gave her good advice and didn’t treat her like a pawn to push around, she’d have avoided a lot of heartache and even the wretched Fs would be better off. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by ursula

[RachelKM]

8 minutes ago, ursula said:

Also, Marina did know the Cranes? Like is this also up for discussion? She obviously knew George. She knew Phillip on sight - recognizing him the moment he stepped out of the carriage. She went to Church with them. We don’t know how large that family was or how acquainted their families were but if the problem was an address to direct inquiries, Marina could have given it to them. Heck, if Mrs F hadn’t poisoned Marina’s mind, she could have written to him herself.

Ah, okay.  So you meant that she knew them by sight and where they lived.  But again, as noted above, it would be a gross breach in protocol with no reasonable expectation that it would do anything other than expose Marina to scandal.  Granted, Marina was eventually exposed to scandal.  But Lady F could no more have anticipated that than she could expect a letter from her to the Cranes would 1) be received 2) be believed and 3) make any difference in light of George's apparent lack of response.