S05.E08: Famous Last Words

[Athena]

Quote

The Frasers must deal with the aftermath of the Battle of Alamance Creek.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[DietCokeJunkie]

Like Roger, I’m kinda speechless. This episode was haunting and beautiful. I thought bringing Ian back early so he and Roger could work through their issues together was perfect. The biggest revelation for me was Sophie Skelton’s voice. Loved it. 

[anamika]

First, Rollo is back! He's become an old doggie considering he didn't run around as much. But still a good boi.

Looks like they fast tracked Roger's ordeal in the books and just skipped to the end.

Loved the scenes with young Ian and Roger in the woods. Two good actors doing more with just their faces than with words. And those woods are beautiful. Wish we got more of such scenes of quiet reflection.

I love that big house.

[Ziggy]

That was so good! I love that I’ve read the books, and I still had no idea where the episode was going.

[theschnauzers]

I love these last two episodes. The fact they are a skillful condensation of The Fiery Cross is a good thing since it brings back Ian, which Matt Roberts admit in the World of Outlander segment, was “early.” Rollo is an adult doggie now  but I’m very glad to see him and John Bell back. The decision to have Young Ian go with Roger to survey Roger and Bree’s land grant and get them to each confront their separate demons, and given Ian’s sacrifice to save Roger with the Mohawk at the end is last season, was a perfect piece of work by the writers, and Richard and John pulled that off perfectly. And I like this more mature Ian, and it’s clear there will be a need for him going forward. And tying in future Roger lecture point about “burying thr hatchet “ and past day Ian actually doing so, was brilliant, just as Bree singing Clementine to Jemmy after Roger’s doing so in the last episode.

I had no problem with the silent film, flashback device and how it was used to show Roger’s PTSD on the one hand and inform us about how traumatized Roger was. Then there’s the scene with Jocasta at Frazier’s Ridge. This episode has so much shine in it for so much of the cast fully of Emmy winning performance I just can’t say enough.

[AD55]

Seeing this episode praised makes me so happy. I loved it. It's the first episode of Outlander in a long time that I want to rewatch. I saw it in the late night/early morning, so I am sure I missed a lot, but Richard Rankin and John Bell were superb together. When Roger saw Ian for the first time, Richard displayed such a complex range of emotions that I wasn't sure what he was thinking. I was even worried that he might take a swing at Ian (please, no!) and was relieved when his face softened and he put his arms around him. Such a moving moment and a brilliant choice by the writers. All the evidence we need that Roger both forgives Ian and is grateful to him.

Lauren Lyle's Marsali continues to impress me. She makes the most of every scene she's in.

I thought the classroom scene did a great job of showing Roger's capacity to connect with and mentor young men, which prepares us for the understanding and compassion he displays in his interactions with Ian. And I loved the scene of him kicking over the cup and Ian's indignation. It hearkened back to his students insisting that he reciprocate and tell them what his last words would be. I don't recall when/how we learn about the circumstances of Ian's rejection by his wife, but I hope he tells Roger. It was a relief to have Roger's strengths rather than his ineptitude on display for a change. Perhaps his friendship with Ian will help Jamie appreciate that Roger's skills and talents, while different from Jamie's, have worth. Jamie, with the best of intentions, has wanted to remake Roger in his own image, rather than accept him for who he is.

Using silent film conventions for Roger's flashbacks could have been cheesy, but I think it worked beautifully.

My only major disappointment is that I've never so much wished that Sophie were a better actor. The contrast between Roger's interactions with Bree and those with Ian was stark. She's just not up to the level of performance this series requires of actors.

[cardigirl]

I really enjoyed this episode. I was so happy to see young Ian return, and to watch how Roger's story unfolded.  The show is back to being so beautifully filmed and constructed and I am back to rewatching episodes more than once, something that hasn't been true for a while. 

Rik Rankin did a marvelous job without much dialogue. He and John Bell together, when they were out surveying the 5000 acres, was a show I would watch on its own. With Rollo, of course.

I also enjoyed the paper anniversary=airplane scene with Brianna, and her hoping for 60 years. I thought it was a beautiful analogy.  And I loved the gentle teasing about teaching their son sweater instead of jumper. 

Still wish they would give Fergus more to do/say, I miss him. But Marsali is always wonderful to watch. 

A++ on this episode and the one before. 

[morgan]

I loved it!  Loved Ian coming back early, loved the future scenes with roger and his students.  Loved loved loved the silent movies.  Rik and John killed it.  And marsali continues to impress.  

[Quickbeam]

Episode covered a lot of ground. Sophie continues to ruin all the scenes she’s in. It’s a shame. Everyone else brings their A game. I love Lauren Lyle’s Marsali. She really fleshes out a character I didn’t much care for in the books to someone I am always happy to see on screen. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Quickbeam
Typo

[iMonrey]

Quote

This episode was haunting and beautiful. 

"Haunting" is a good word to describe it. The silent movie gimmick was eerie but effective. 

I'm not sure they had yet begun to really understand PTSD even in the 1960s. I know they knew what it was but I don't know if it was as well understood as it is today. So even the fact that Roger, Bree and Claire all come from the future doesn't necessarily equip them to handle what happened to Roger or understand what he must be going through. And the flashbacks really drove home how traumatic that must have been. I mean, that would be a horrifying thing to happen to you.

So glad Ian is back, he was always one of my favorite characters. Although I can see he is much changed so I hope that doesn't diminish what I always liked best about him.

And yeah, I haven't really been feeling this season as much but this is maybe the first episode this season I'll watch a second time.

[nodorothyparker]

I wouldn't have expected the silent film gimmick to work, but color me as surprised as anyone that I found it probably more disturbing than the cut to the usual film version at the end.  

This episode was very meditative on pain and lingering trauma.  With very few lines, Rik Rankin really sold the hell out of Roger's headspace and his sense of being "stuck" in what happened to him, even if I did find the eventual realization that it was Bree's face that was the last thing he remembered coherently seeing a little cheesy.  I'm generally not a fan of this Perils of Pauline section of the book and hey, let's hang the new guy plot point, but as with the Great Misunderstanding unless they were going to scrap it entirely, I think they did what they could and actually managed to pull something effective out of it.  But ye gods, was Sophie terrible in this one where she had several stretches without a stronger actor to carry her.  I don't dislike her as much some seem to, but she was so painfully middling in an episode where nearly everybody else was really delivering.  The Marsali actress seemed to exist for no other reason except to add a bit of welcome sparkle to multiple scenes of morose untalkative men.

Welcome back, more somber and grown up Ian.  I don't find his plot in this section of the books of What Went Wrong very interesting either, but I'm happy to see his return moved up.  And we got Roger waving a bit of blatant anachronism with the paper airplane in his face right out of the gate.  Please, show, don't wait too long to drop that realization/revelation that hey, everybody here but good old Uncle Jamie is a time traveler, especially now that Murtagh has exited the canvas.

[toolazy]

I pretty much expected that Ian would be back this season, but they surprised and delighted me.  I hope Somber Ian can heal up and bring back Goofy Ian. 

I actually thought Sophie did a good job this episode.  And when she and Roger kissed in the classroom, they almost had chemistry.

[sas616]

I guess my expectations are much lower than others because I had no problem with Sophie in this episode (or the last).   In fact, I thought she was really good in most all of her scenes this season.  

[Ziggy]

7 minutes ago, sas616 said:

I guess my expectations are much lower than others because I had no problem with Sophie in this episode (or the last).   In fact, I thought she was really good in most all of her scenes this season.  

I've always like Brianna, and I think Sophie's doing a great job.  Sometimes I get annoyed by the negative comments, but I really try to just skip over them and move on.

[Nidratime]

I absolutely loved this episode. I was not spoiled for Ian's return so I was so pleasantly surprised and desperately wanted to hear his story.

I thought the silent movie footage was perfect. We have to remember, since Claire, Brianna, and Roger are from the future, they would process their trauma through that prism. especially since, many times, we process trauma through memories from our past -- through our younger lives -- so not surprised that they use modern devices to highlight the trauma of someone from the future.

I agree that they're under using Fergus and hope he has more to do in the future.

Edit to add: I think Sophie did a really good job. I think people are just holding on to past impressions.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Nidratime

[theschnauzers]

The show actually spoiled Young Ian’s return in the opening credits this week. But remembering Ian did return in the books in The Fiery Cross, I had been wondering when we would see it. And it led to a powerful performance by John Bell. I think we’ll learn more about Ian’s time with the Mohawk going forward, just as in the books, we didn’t learn the whole story of it all at once.

A P.S. In the discussion among the characters about past trauma during the episode, no one mentioned Young Ian’s past trauma because of Gellis which I think was Young Ian’s original motive in volunteering to take Roger’s place with the Mohawk last season. So I can definitely see why the Young Ian return from the Mohawk couldn’t be fully explored in this episode. He had a different heartbreak with the Mohawk, and his reason for doing so, to deal with his own PTSD, is something that’s still out there to address.

Edited April 13, 2020 by theschnauzers
Additional thoughts

[Haleth]

Regardless of Sophie’s acting skills I cannot stand Mary Sue Bree.  Roger and Ian have more chemistry even when they don’t say a word.  Shoot, Roger and Rollo have more chemistry  

This was hard and heartbreaking to watch. Rik and John both knocked it out of the park with their visceral pain. I’m not sure what the point of Jocasta’s scene was but it sure set the tone for a very somber episode. Very little Jamie and Claire. Thank goodness we had the always delightful Marsali. 

[Nidratime]

Well, there was a lot of singing in this episode from very good singers, including the actress playing Jocasta who was in the movie "The Commitments" as a younger woman and did some marvelous singing in that.

[Clawdette]

I anticipate that we’ll see a lot of Fergus when Marsali has the baby. Do I remember correctly that he initially had a hard time accepting the outcome?  There should be some strong scenes written with opportunities for strong performances. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well, I’ll be the dissenter here. Hated the episode. Hated the silent movie device to show Roger’s rescue. Because I really wanted to hear the emotions from Jamie and the others when they cut him down.

Since I skip the intro, I missed that Wee Ian was coming back. And I really don’t remember him being indifferent to Jamie when he returned. He looked almost angry. He didn’t return Jamie’s hug. He hugged Roger and Bree more warmly.

I know, he’s grieving. But I didn’t like the coldness. And that he didn’t call Claire “Auntie”, something that I’ve always loved about him.

All that said, Rik did a great job as Roger struggling and having flashbacks to his hanging.

As for the discussion of the PTSD, season three had a great episode leading up to Culloden, when Claire  was experiencing shell shock, and her own PTSD flashback when she lost the men she had met during WWII.

But ❤️🥰❤️ROLLO!!!❤️🥰❤️

[cardigirl]

To me, the silent film 'treatment' was perfect, because that was how events replayed in Roger's mind, like a film he was watching because his psyche couldn't deal with the reality of what he had been through.  

At any rate, I didn't find it distracting, and tied in nicely to Roger's apparent love of silent films from when he lived in the 60s. 1960s that is.  And hey, I've been to the Kenmore Square theater.  🙂  

 

[nodorothyparker]

Ian's in a lot of emotional pain, so I can see how it might bug that Jamie was so determinedly treating him like he always had, like nothing had changed when that so clearly wasn't the case.  Jamie wasn't really doing anything wrong there, rather he seemed to be trying his level best to envelop Ian back into daily family life as quickly as possible. But it seemed at points like it was really grating at Ian to be called "lad" when he's no longer the lad Jamie knew.  I'll admit that it was interesting how easily accepting of each other Ian and Roger immediately were given where their relationship left off.

On rewatch, I'm left once again wondering why John Grey is hanging around for seemingly random scenes.  Fraser's Ridge and Alamance aren't conveniently located close to anything but John's just dropping by now?  It feels like the show is trying to keep the character and the actor on the canvas but doesn't really know what to do with either beyond answer the question nobody was asking of where the astrolabe came from rather than do the book scene to remind that Jamie has another child out there.

[SassAndSnacks]

Rik Rankin and John Bell are the pairing I didn’t know I needed, but now that I’ve had it, I want more. They were so freaking good. I really enjoy how Richard Rankin brings such warmth to Roger’s character. Even though he was going through something so horrific and so traumatic, you could still feel how loving of a person he is with his interactions with people.

27 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm left once again wondering why John Grey is hanging around for seemingly random scenes.

Me too! It feels like fan service. Unpopular opinion alert - I didn’t like LJG in the books, though he did grow on me by MOBY. He’s grown on me in the show, as well, but he just randomly pops in and it’s nonsensical. So he stopped by to drop off the astrolabe? Ok...

I have mixed emotions about this one, but I really appreciate that so many others were moved by it and enjoyed it. For me, this section of the book was so harrowing - the group finding Roger, Bree holding him, Claire frantically trying to save his life, Jamie’s reassurance that all would be well. I miss that we didn’t get to see their reactions.

Thrilled that Young Ian is back, though! 

[Cdh20]

The producers & fans love David/John so they are keeping him employed🤔.

[theschnauzers]

Rather than using different minor characters or letters from Lord John, as was the case in the books, Lord John comes to visit. He doesn’t live all that far away in Virginia, and his connection with the British aristocracy, both in Londgon and the Colonies, points to a way to simplify things. John did get the astrolabe for Jamie and Claire in the book, by having William Ransom procure it. With Ransom studying in London, Lord John has opportunities to visit. It seems John was there for Murtagh’s burial, and he was the one who presented the letter rom the governor about the new land grant to Roger and Bree. In short, his more frequent visits than in the book serve a purpose. And David Berry is a favorite.

[ruby24]

I don't know- I was kind of disappointed with the way they handled Roger's hanging. Especially the immediate aftermath. That scene was so harrowing and suspenseful in the book, with them realizing he's still got a pulse and Claire having to open his throat- I mean, this and Jamie's snakebite were the two things that I even remembered about this book in the first place, so I think they missed the chance to show us how brutal that really was for Roger.

Doing it all in flashback with the silent movie thing didn't work for me. I feel like we needed to really experience his trauma with him to understand his PTSD afterwards. 

I did like that they brought Ian back early. I never liked Ian that much in the books, but John Bell brings him to life and makes him far more likable that I ever thought he could be. Which speaks to how grave an error they made in the casting of Brianna. Man, she was struggling in that scene where's she yelling at Roger. It's such a shame, because Rankin is SO good that he deserves a decent scene partner, and I feel like if he had one I could easily imagine caring about Roger and Brianna. But on the bright side, they did find something Sophie Skelton can do, and that's sing. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I don't know- I was kind of disappointed with the way they handled Roger's hanging. Especially the immediate aftermath. That scene was so harrowing and suspenseful in the book, with them realizing he's still got a pulse and Claire having to open his throat- I mean, this and Jamie's snakebite were the two things that I even remembered about this book in the first place, so I think they missed the chance to show us how brutal that really was for Roger.

It makes me feel better that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Especially the part I bolded. Sorry, Matt (Roberts), but the use of the silent film failed to show me how brutal this was for Roger, and how he was handling it. Because as someone, I think in the non-buik thread said, I see the silent movies more as...funny. Even if there were silent movies that were dramas. Where's the tension? the music that would evoke how tense it was? And with use of the silent movie device, the delayed dialogue just didn't work for me. 

And seriously, Bree? Three months is "more than long enough?" Wonder what your reaction would have been if Roger had said that to you, three months after your rape?

Like I posted in the thread for next week--since it was the scene that gave me the most FEELS when I read it, Roberts and company better not FUCK UP the scenes where Jamie is bitten by the snake.

This season has been one big MAJOR disappointment for me. And I thought it would be the opposite with Sam and Cait as producers.

[AD55]

One problem with the silent movie device, much as I liked it, is the perspective is off.  We shouldn't be seeing Roger's eyes and the events on the ground when Roger has flashbacks, as they should be from Roger's POV. Of course, filming the shadowy images Roger saw through the mask, assuming he could see anything at all, would have been less emotionally compelling for the viewer than experiencing the terror in his eyes and watching the bucket, or whatever it was, being kicked out from under him. 

The scenes with subtitles have to be for the viewer, so it would have made sense to shoot those the conventional way, allowing us to experience what Bree, Jamie, and Claire are doing and feeling. Moving back and forth between Roger's POV (silent movie) and the events on the ground (TV style) would have been tricky to pull off but worth trying. Like Ruby24, I missed the scramble to save Roger's life and hearing Sam speak Jamie's words to him. When I read it, I recall thinking that he knew just what to say because he'd been there.

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, AD55 said:

I missed the scramble to save Roger's life and hearing Sam speak Jamie's words to him. When I read it, I recall thinking that he knew just what to say because he'd been there.

YES! And since they're going off-buik anyway, it would have been nice to see Jamie try to talk to Roger--because he's been there. I don't think Bree and Roger know that Jamie was raped, but do they know about his torture? But it's all moot now.

[SassAndSnacks]

I've really loved this season so far, so I feel bad for being critical about how the hanging was portrayed.  As I mentioned, the acting was tremendous.  I didn't physically feel Roger's hanging the way that I did when I read it, though, and that feeling was so suffocating to me, I could barely breath while reading and felt frantic along with Claire, Jamie, and Bree while the tried to save him.  

28 minutes ago, AD55 said:

I missed the scramble to save Roger's life and hearing Sam speak Jamie's words to him. When I read it, I recall thinking that he knew just what to say because he'd been there.

I love that you said this.  I think this was a critical miss.  Jamie KNEW what to say.  He is an empathetic person because he has been through so much.  This was a much needed turning point for Roger and Jamie. Instead, last night we got a caption and then Jamie griping about how much noise Roger was making while working on the stairs.  

35 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And seriously, Bree? Three months is "more than long enough?" Wonder what your reaction would have been if Roger had said that to you, three months after your rape?

This bugged me, too, and I don't think it did anything to show how strong their relationship is supposed to be.  Three months isn't that long to simply get over a near-death experience. In an episode so focused on PTSD, it came off to me as really callous.  

That said, I truly am so happy that many people are raving about it.  I want people to like the show and think it's wonderful.  Ratings equal renewals, and I want to see this story play out to the end.  

[Ziggy]

11 hours ago, theschnauzers said:

The show actually spoiled Young Ian’s return in the opening credits this week.

I NEVER look at the names during the opening credits - except if I’m rewatching. Otherwise, I will be spoiled every time.

I JUST finished rereading The Fiery Cross, so Ian returning is rather fresh. As soon as I realized it was a bore, I said, “Oh my gosh! Ian!!!” My poor husband was so confused 🙂

That’s why I don’t “watch” the credits.  I’ve already read the books, so I’m already somewhat spoiled.  But the show version provides many surprises, and I try to enjoy everyone of them. 

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

11 hours ago, Clawdette said:

I anticipate that we’ll see a lot of Fergus when Marsali has the baby. Do I remember correctly that he initially had a hard time accepting the outcome?  There should be some strong scenes written with opportunities for strong performances. 

I think you're thinking of Marsali's 4th pregnancy which unless they really change things doesn't happen until the 6th book. She's on her 3rd pregnancy now in show (I believe).

His explanation for his actions is basically an extraordinary worry for what kind of life and future his child can have.

[AD55]

28 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I've really loved this season so far, so I feel bad for being critical about how the hanging was portrayed.  As I mentioned, the acting was tremendous.  I didn't physically feel Roger's hanging the way that I did when I read it, though, and that feeling was so suffocating to me, I could barely breath while reading and felt frantic along with Claire, Jamie, and Bree while the tried to save him.  

I love that you said this.  I think this was a critical miss.  Jamie KNEW what to say.  He is an empathetic person because he has been through so much.  This was a much needed turning point for Roger and Jamie. Instead, last night we got a caption and then Jamie griping about how much noise Roger was making while working on the stairs.  

This bugged me, too, and I don't think it did anything to show how strong their relationship is supposed to be.  Three months isn't that long to simply get over a near-death experience. In an episode so focused on PTSD, it came off to me as really callous.  

That said, I truly am so happy that many people are raving about it.  I want people to like the show and think it's wonderful.  Ratings equal renewals, and I want to see this story play out to the end.  

I agree with all of this. I edited my post, but it didn't come through. The burden of the addition was that my criticisms of the episode are quibbles. Show runners have to make difficult decisions, and for me the the positives far outweigh the negatives in this episode. But I couldn't agree with you more that this was a turning point in Jamie's relationship with Roger, so it was a missed opportunity. And I also agree that his complaints about Roger making noise don't ring true.

I don't like it when people compare experiences to the detriment of one person, as Bree did. That's not empathy. I give her a pass, as she is justly proud of herself for not letting a brutal rape, not to mention the selling of her husband to the Mohawks, defeat her. Plus she's terrified she has lost her husband--perspective usually comes after the fact. But people's feelings are their feelings. It's not useful to assign a degree of difficulty to a trauma and then give someone a low score, as though they were competing in the floor exercise.

I have loved this season so far. It's the most I've been invested since season 2. After last year, I almost bailed, but I am someone who usually sees series through even when my interest wanes. I'm really glad I did.

This is a little OT, but I now love this season's rendition of the Skye Boat Song. I wasn't crazy about it at first, not because I don't like the genre of music, but because I'm so attached to the season 1 version. But I am completely sold on it now.

[aemom]

11 minutes ago, AD55 said:

I agree with all But people's feelings are their feelings. It's not useful to assign a degree of difficulty to a trauma and then give someone a low score, as though they were competing in the floor exercise.

Absolutely! Some people will fold like a house of cards over some things and others will forge on relentlessly after an incredible trauma. People have different limits, on different issues, at different times - and they are all valid.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Claire, Bree, and Roger are from 1970. Think back to how we treated and understood mental health 50 years ago. It's nothing compared to what we know and how we treat things today. Everyone is at a disadvantage dealing with all the issues that everyone has suffered through and all they can do is muddle through as best as they can.

I'm also not sure if I liked the silent movie treatment of the hanging. I understand what they were going for, but the part where they cut Roger down and Claire had to do emergency surgery - that whole scene required a lot of seriousness and gravitas and I felt that aspect was lost.

Lovely to see Ian back. I skipped past the credits so I was unspoiled. You could see the shadow of the native and then I saw Rollo and yelled "It's Ian!"

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I've really loved this season so far, so I feel bad for being critical about how the hanging was portrayed.  As I mentioned, the acting was tremendous. 

 

That said, I truly am so happy that many people are raving about it.  I want people to like the show and think it's wonderful.  Ratings equal renewals, and I want to see this story play out to the end.  

This!! I still love it even when I don't love an episode!

Edited April 13, 2020 by Cdh20

[CountryGirl]

Initially, I was pulling a face at using a silent film motiff to illustrate Roger's obvious PTSD, but as the episode unfolded, I think it was a quite brilliant choice.

Someone going through the kind of trauma Roger experienced - literally almost losing his life - and losing his voice, tends to compartmentalize their trauma or make it something more palatable for their brain to comprehend.

He used his memories of the silent film festival he went to with Bree in the then-present to help shape and massage the near-death so he could try to begin to cope with what happened.

And as time wore on, more details appeared in that silent film "footage" (memory) until eventually, as he became more distanced but still traumatized from the immediacy and began to find his voice again, the film changed from its initial incarnation as silent and black and white to a very vivid film with sound and color. 

It was only then that that he really, truly began to process all that had happened and might have happened and began the real unpacking that it takes to heal (not get over) from something of this magnitude.

I absolutely loved seeing Ian back again. He has been missed. He was exactly the perfect person to be paired with Roger on the surveying expedition. One of my favorite moments of the entire series was when Roger, correctly deducing that Ian was suicidal, having brought himself back from the brink of that cliff and the longing to heave himself over it, kicked that can of hemlock off of the fire. 

I enjoyed Marsali's conversation with Ian and agree that her talking to Ian like she always has made him relax and open a tiny crack. I still want to know what the hell happened during his time with the Mohawk. And I want more of Fergus dammit!

Elsewhere, loved Jocasta's song for her departed lover, Murtagh. She has a lovely voice as does Bree.

Speaking of Bree, Sophie continues to grow on me, she has ever since the rape episode and its aftermath. I could feel the desperation in her voice as she pleaded with Roger to come back to her. And her reminder that she, too, went through hell and wanted to die (and sometimes still does). 

I also enjoyed the cuteness of Claire and Jamie playing hide and seek with Jem.

And Claire and Jamie getting ready for bed. 

Sometimes, it's the quiet moments that really resonate.

[iMonrey]

I had to re-watch the opening scene in 1969 because I was somewhat distracted the first time around and thought I missed it, but Roger never did explain to his students where the expression "bury the hatchet" came from. For those as ignorant as I, it was indeed a native American Indian thing. When two warring tribes made peace the chief of each tribe would bury their hatchet in the ground as a symbol of the peace deal. 

I am somewhat confused about the nature of Bree and Roger's relationship in 1969, though. We've seen through various flashbacks that they only saw each other  fleetingly and that it usually resulted in their fighting and someone storming off. This episode made it look like they were dating long-term and I'm scratching my head trying to figure out when that would have happened.

Quote

This is a little OT, but I now love this season's rendition of the Skye Boat Song. I wasn't crazy about it at first, not because I don't like the genre of music, but because I'm so attached to the season 1 version. But I am completely sold on it now.

I didn't like it at first either, but it's growing on me.

[SassAndSnacks]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Sometimes, it's the quiet moments that really resonate.

This show does quiet moments better than anything else I've watched. 

The small things the actors put into the scenes, either by direction or intuition, put these moments on par with Darcy's hand stretch from the 2005 Pride and Prejudice, which is one of the greatest movie scenes in the history of movies!

[Cdh20]

22 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I had to re-watch the opening scene in 1969 because I was somewhat distracted the first time around and thought I missed it, but Roger never did explain to his students where the expression "bury the hatchet" came from. For those as ignorant as I, it was indeed a native American Indian thing. When two warring tribes made peace the chief of each tribe would bury their hatchet in the ground as a symbol of the peace deal. 

I am somewhat confused about the nature of Bree and Roger's relationship in 1969, though. We've seen through various flashbacks that they only saw each other  fleetingly and that it usually resulted in their fighting and someone storming off. This episode made it look like they were dating long-term and I'm scratching my head trying to figure out when that would have happened.

I didn't like it at first either, but it's growing on me.

In one of the season 4 episodes Roger  talked about them seeing each other a few times during the year, but we only saw the time they had that fight (403 I think).  Those were the years when Jamie & Claire were sailing around, & building Fraser's Ridge so we weren't in on it.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Cdh20

[GHScorpiosRule]

54 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

This show does quiet moments better than anything else I've watched. 

The small things the actors put into the scenes, either by direction or intuition, put these moments on par with Darcy's hand stretch from the 2005 Pride and Prejudice, which is one of the greatest movie scenes in the history of movies!

Sam does that for the viewers and buik readers. The physical tics/tapping, using his left hand in certain scenes, because he's read the buiks, he knows that Jamie is left-handed, even while he's right-handed.

And I appreciate that.

[ruby24]

Oh and another thing- since they want to bring Brianna's rape up in comparison, they have never shown Roger and Brianna have any kind of discussion or even averse impact on their relationship due to Brianna's rape. From what I remember in the books, I do think that Roger was sort of uncomfortable about bringing that up and they didn't talk about it much either, but they definitely went into how Bree was  at least not into having sex with him when he first came back and they struggled with being intimate for a while. I think he even talks to Claire about it, and she says Bree's only experience with sex is her first time with Roger and then being raped not long afterward.

I just remember in the premiere when they showed them in bed together and I thought, well, I guess everything's just fine with them then? Seriously, there was zero repercussions that we saw there.

[AD55]

17 hours ago, sas616 said:

I guess my expectations are much lower than others because I had no problem with Sophie in this episode (or the last).   In fact, I thought she was really good in most all of her scenes this season.  

I don't think this means your expectations are lower. People can have different opinions about what works. I do think Sophie has improved, as I have said in other threads, and I'm going to try and refrain from being critical of her. I don't much like it when commenters dump on actors, especially on their appearance, but I do it myself sometimes.

[Thalia]

On 4/12/2020 at 7:27 AM, AD55 said:

Seeing this episode praised makes me so happy. I loved it. It's the first episode of Outlander in a long time that I want to rewatch.

I've fast forwarded through a couple of episodes this season.  I've honestly been watching out of habit and my love for the characters/actors.  Last night's episode was fantastic and it held my attention from beginning to end. 

And from the shallow end of the  pool:  Cesar Domboy?  Hubba hubba. 

[CarpeFelis]

Unpopular opinion, but this was really hard for me to watch and definitely won’t be one I want to rewatch. Having to watch poor Roger (and us!) relive that hanging over and over? No, thanks. Also, while Sophie’s singing voice was lovely, “Clementine” went on way too long.

[theschnauzers]

2 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

Also, while Sophie’s singing voice was lovely, “Clementine” went on way too long.

In 607, Roger and Bree discuss teaching/singing to Jemmie the entire song, even if Roger doesn’t make it back, and here, Bree is doing just that. The use of the song was a metaphor of Bree was trying to induce Roger out of the PTSD was using the song, I found nothing odd about it.

 

[CarpeFelis]

1 hour ago, theschnauzers said:

In 607, Roger and Bree discuss teaching/singing to Jemmie the entire song, even if Roger doesn’t make it back, and here, Bree is doing just that. The use of the song was a metaphor of Bree was trying to induce Roger out of the PTSD was using the song, I found nothing odd about it.

 

It made sense plotwise; I just lost patience with it.

[domina89]

On 4/13/2020 at 3:28 AM, ruby24 said:

Doing it all in flashback with the silent movie thing didn't work for me. I feel like we needed to really experience his trauma with him to understand his PTSD afterwards.

I agree.  As someone upthread mentioned, I equate silent movies with Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton... basically comedies.  That scene was critical to our understanding Roger's frame of mind and the silent movie treatment just took me right out of the scene and I had a hard time getting past it.  It just felt very gimmicky to me- like they were trying too hard to be clever.  I'm glad most of you enjoyed it, though.  I will agree that both Richard Rankin and John Bell knocked it out of the park!

[toolazy]

29 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I agree.  As someone upthread mentioned, I equate silent movies with Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton... basically comedies.  That scene was critical to our understanding Roger's frame of mind and the silent movie treatment just took me right out of the scene and I had a hard time getting past it.  It just felt very gimmicky to me- like they were trying too hard to be clever.  I'm glad most of you enjoyed it, though.  I will agree that both Richard Rankin and John Bell knocked it out of the park!

There were a lot of silent horror movies as well, and that's what this evoked for me.  I re-watched the episode last night and those silent film flashbacks were downright creepy to me. Obviously, other people's experiences are different and that's why it was kind of ballsy choice on the part of the showrunners.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

There were a lot of silent horror movies as well, and that's what this evoked for me. 

Yes. When I see an old silent movie I don't think of comedy, I think "Wow, this was made over 100 years ago." And Roger, Bree and Claire are 200 years in the past. It's kind of like if they could have filmed an actual lynching in the 1770s this is what the film would look like. It felt genuine to me. I admit it took getting used to though. At first I thought it was dumb but as it went on I found it effective for what they were trying to evoke.

[Atlanta]

John Bell and RR need to be nominate for Golden Globes and an Emmy.