S04.E18: Strangers: Part Two

[sasha206]

So we're to believe that a morbidly obese woman easily adopts a girl?  I thought Rebecca and Jack so easily adopting Randall was a sack of shit, but this is another "I call bullshit." 

[jalady]

I don't think Kevin actually meant what he said to Randall.  I think he said the thing he knew would cut Randall the deepest because he was hurt/pissed at what Randall said.  Which, by the way, was a lie.  But I also saw the regret in Kevin's eyes as Randall registered what he had said.  Acting choice or direction?  I don't know.  But I saw it.  And that's why I'm not mad at Kevin.  Just my opinion.

I loved the scene with Madison telling Kevin she was pregnant, because it felt real.  I think Madison absolutely knew it was a HORRIBLE time to tell Kevin, based on what he said and the vibe between he and Randall.  But she had built up her courage to do it then and was afraid that if she didn't do it right then, she may not ever be in that place - ready to do it - again.  I liked that.

Edited March 25, 2020 by jalady
typo

[sasha206]

2 minutes ago, jalady said:

I don't think Kevin actually meant what he said to Randall.  I think he said the thing he knew would cut Randall the deepest because he was hurt/pissed at what Randall said.  Which, by the way, was a lie.  But I also saw the regret in Kevin's eyes as Randall registered what he had said.  Acting choice or direction?  I don't know.  But I saw it.  And that's why I'm not mad at Kevin.  Just my opinion.

I loved the scene with Madison telling Kevin she was pregnant, because it felt real.  I think Madison absolutely knew it was a HORRIBLE time to tell Kevin, based on what he said and the vibe between he and Randall.  But she had built up her courage to do it then and was afraid that if she didn't do it right then, she may not ever be in that place - ready to do it - again.  I liked that.

I think the reason they were able to put it behind them is both made cutting remarks they didn't mean in the heat of the moment.  

[nexxie]

TIU shows how sibling relationships depend on the way parents treat each child, as much as the individual personalities involved. Rebecca and Randall had a codependency from the beginning - he filled the empty place left by Kyle and she always held onto Randall too tightly, both because of the lost baby and because he was an abandoned child of a different race. In doing this, Kevin was always on his own too much, almost like an outsider looking in. Randall developed an over-responsible personality and Kevin an addictive one - perhaps without those family dynamics, their genetic tendencies might not have expressed in the same way.

Really interesting turn of events!

[ByaNose]

20 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Well, I'll be here in the shallow end for a moment: I waited throughout the whole episode for that Resistance billboard - brotherly fight be damned! And it did not disappoint, the billboard I mean. Thanks show!

I loved Beth for letting Randall know exactly how she felt about his actions without putting that into words. And for her faces throughout the whole birthday party. She was on a constant countdown and once she realized it was about T minus ten she made sure to get everybody still in the house out of harm's way.

As for the fight itself: I was intrigued by the fact that Kevin used the terms 'narratives' and 'martyr'. He was basically analyzing Randall and doing a pretty fine job about it. Randall on the other hand was spewing out his 'Kevin sucks' fantasies- not all of that was actually wrong but as has been mentioned before Kevin has moved on while Randall is regressing. And of course they both went to the place that hurts the most - which ironically only siblings know how to do properly.

And just to make the point how much Kevin has changed and that he can in fact take care of others: Nicky's text came through the very moment I was wondering if we're about to see Kevin break his sobriety (which would have meant gving in to Randall's narratives). He took care of Nicky and of Cassidy (even though that one got a bit messy in the end) and I think some of that must have gone through his head before he decided to return to Madison and commit to being a father. I was also impressed that he did not spin any romantic tales about how they will make this work together but clearly stated that his kid(s) will be the love of his life. I know others called this a WTF moment but for me there was a beautiful emotional logic at play.

Random observations: Miguel is still just an afterthought on this show. Toby stressing out over the birthday cake was funny - glad he did not suggest nut-cheese as an alternative! Nicky admitting how cute those sneakers were and then panicking about a possible drop in testosterone made me laugh. 

 

 

I wonder if show will ever get in to the Rebecca and Miguel hook up. It seems like it's too invested in the Jack and Rebecca storyline to devote time to the Miguel part.

[milner]

Was no one else bothered by Kate and Toby immediately being able to scroll through pictures of children needing to be adopted?  It was like  “let’s adopt.  Check out amazon!!”  Is it even legal to post pics of kids like that?   And choose based on looks alone. Seems a bit like a pedophiles catalogue. It made me feel sick. 

[ams1001]

I love Kevin and Nicky's gently-teasing relationship.

Also love that Nicky's baby gift was baby-size sneakers like Kevin wears.

I thought we (whoever we is) figured out Rebecca's deathbed timeline was approximately 12 years in the future. (Not sure if that was from comments here or articles I read elsewhere.)

They focused on both rings. Kevin's is silver-colored, shown when he came in and went to greet Rebecca in the bed, and Nicky's is gold, shown when he hugs Kevin.

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Kyle! Rebecca and Jack dealing with losing Kyle! Kyle is a subject that doesent come up very much, and I always find it to be a topic that I wanted them to explore more, so it was nice to see that he wasnt forgotten. Plus, Doctor Lemons shows up for more sage advice! 

I was amused during the episode since there was a lot of talk about how they never mention him in last week's thread. If the show wasn't already taped I'd think they were reading here for ideas!

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

the metaphorse. 

OMG, this is the best laugh I've had so far today. 😂

41 minutes ago, PRgal said:

As for Jack and Lucy’s daughter, Hope...that’s such a 1990s soap opera name!!!  Homage to Uncle Kevin’s time as a soap actor (I wonder if Kevin did more than just the non-speaking role on Days...)

I watched the Council of Dads premiere that came on after this and they name their new baby Hope in that as well. (Though it kind of makes more sense since they're just learning of the husband's cancer recurrence at the time she's born.) 

[CarpeFelis]

7 hours ago, mommalib said:

That's the kind of thing that wouldn't have been said about Randall after season 1 but here we are. And it sound like somebody doesn't appreciate the shine Sterling K gets even though it's deserved. 

Oh, Sterling K rocks! Look what a fantastic job he’s done making us hate Randall. (No sarcasm intended here.)

[ams1001]

2 minutes ago, milner said:

Was no one else bothered by Kate and Toby immediately being able to scroll through pictures of children needing to be adopted?  It was like  “let’s adopt.  Check out amazon!!”  Is it even legal to post pics of kids like that?   And choose based on looks alone. Seems a bit like a pedophiles catalogue. It made me feel sick. 

I hadn't really thought about it but now that you mention it, it made me think of something like the Petfinder website. Ick.

[sasha206]

1 hour ago, Jaclyn88 said:

If they really wanted to do a twist , they should have had Madison pregnant with one kid , and in the final scenes at the end when Kevin’s son walked in the room , they should have had his other child walk in so we’d have to guess if he had another child with Madison or if it was with someone else . 
 

i think nickys text was about being one year sober , not about becoming a dad . 
I think Cassidy maybe marries Nicky . I do think Kevin will end up with sophie unless next season they build up madison and Kevin’s relationship and create a love story for them a la Joey and Pacey  . 

It’s the Pearson’s - she’ll get picked for the trial . 

If she doesn't get picked, Randall will make a similar speech to get her a job she didn't qualify for.

[mommalib]

2 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

Oh, Sterling K rocks! Look what a fantastic job he’s done making us hate Randall. (No sarcasm intended here.)

Sterling K can do it all but I think it's the writers that made you hate Randall.

[mommalib]

11 hours ago, willco said:

There is an old song that incorporates the line, "You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Rebecca should definitely take that to heart and maybe even included her husband in her decision ( wow, what a novel idea !). But she should decide whether to do the trial or spend that time with her family. Not Kevin and certainly not Randall. It's fine for Randall to give his opinion, but the way he did the whole thing last week was wrong.

 

As for Kevin and what he said to Randall this week, well that was wrong also but he was totally provoked into that, I think, and I doubt he would have ever said shit like to Randall if Randall hadn't said such awful things first, and also done the crap he did with Mom.  Kevin has always some impulse issues , and lashing out like that just proves that. If Randall was as perfect as *HE* thinks he is, he wouldn't have said what he did. But he isn't, he just doesn't know it.

 

Man, what a mess.

Actually Kevin started it when he taunted Randall's failure to save Jack.

[Kdawg82]

34 minutes ago, jalady said:

But she had built up her courage to do it then and was afraid that if she didn't do it right then, she may not ever be in that place - ready to do it - again.  I liked that.

I agree. There's a little bit of hate aound the forum that she did that. But how many times in movies or shows do we get the Romeo & Juliet effect. The bare miss. Then we shout at the Tv "just Say it!!! Say the thing!!"

[Luckylyn]

I think Randall blackmailing Rebecca was wrong, and I was fine with Kevin confronting him about that.   Randall at least subconsciously knew he was wrong which is why he was willing to go along with Rebecca’s lie that she decided on her on to go to the trial.  Both Kevin and Randall were wrong to say the horrible things that did.  
 

Kevin telling Randall that he would have saved Jack was totally unfair.  Kevin basically blaming Randall for not doing enough taps into Randall’s savior issues which was like Kevin going for his jugular.  Kevin resents Randall so much for being the favorite.  Kevin comes off as desperate for love and attention he feels he didn’t get when a child.  He blames Randall for that but ultimately Jack and Rebecca are responsible for the different ways they favored their kids.   It’s not Randall’s fault he was the favorite.  He directs his anger over how he was treated towards Randall but Rebecca is the one he should be discussing how he was treated.   Saying Randall’s adoption was the worst thing that happened to him was cruel, but it reflects the pain Kevin experienced being treated as an afterthought throughout his childhood.  Even if Kyle had lived, Kevin still might have ended up feeling he wasn’t getting enough attention.  Maybe Kyle would have been favored like Kate was.   Jack and Rebecca are the one he should resent for how he was treated not Randall.

Deep down Randall isn’t capable of seeing Kevin as anything other than a screwup.  Kevin living his own life and moving to New York doesn’t make Kevin a monster.  Randall staying doesn’t make him a saint.  Randall tells himself that staying was for Rebecca, but it was for himself.  People cope with grief differently and there is no perfect universal response.  Randall likes to remind everyone of how he was Rebecca’s caretaker and clearly expects to be treated as special for it.  They way he keeps referencing being the good son with the expectation that he should get what he wants because of that as if he is owed shows there’s a selfishness rather than selflessness behind his actions.  Randall’s sense of self is wrapped up in being the superior child, and he won’t see the good in Kevin because he feels threatened by it.   Kevin could cure cancer, and Randall would probably be derisive of that.  What Randall said about Jack dying ashamed of Kevin was too cruel and just not true.  Randall was projecting a lot of his own selfishness regarding Rebecca onto Kevin.  The idea that Kevin and Rebecca are getting closer really bothers him, and he’s not being honest with himself about it.  Randall acts like he resents Kevin and Kate for not being more involved with Rebecca’s life, but it’s clear he’s actively resistant to their participation.  It’s like he keeps them at a distance from him and Rebecca and then wants to judge them for not being there.  Randall lies to himself a lot about his motivations and wants to protect this image of pure righteousness.  He can’t recognize when he’s being self-centered and selfish because he thinks everything he does comes from a place of moral superiority.

The person they should have been talking to is Rebecca instead of lashing out at each other.  The whole family should be having this conversation with a therapist.

 I’m okay with Madison being the Mom.  I’m hoping she and Kevin get a love story.  I don’t want them engaged just for the kids.  In this day and age she and Kevin can coparent without being a couple.  So I hope their engagement results from falling in love with each other.  Madison seems to have an open soft heart and Kevin has a soft heart needing love.  I could see them getting to know each other better during the pregnancy and falling into a true love story.  Kevin has never really given Madison a chance and been so derisive towards her.  The pregnancy creates a situation where he has to truly get to know her and learn to be a friend to her at least.   A love that starts with friendship would be nice to watch.  Kevin fixates on this fairytale love and that’s putting too much pressure on his relationships.    Kevin embracing a love that’s not a fantasy would be character growth for him.

[mommalib]

I have to say I'm disappointed with the road the writers have taken Randall down. I still find him to be a fascinating and interesting character but when I think back to how he started out in season 1 as a devoted husband, father and son who was kind of a dorky nice guy with some emotional issues and then to look at him now as somebody who is almost defined by his flaws and imperfections. As a black male I see very few leading black male characters who are just strait up good guys, the leading black male characters are more likely to resemble Lucious  Lyon or Ghost St Patrick. You know anti-heroes or villain's That's why I like shows like God Friended Me and SWAT because black male leading characters like Miles and Hondo are good guys who aren't perfect(because nobody is) but they don't drown in those flaws and imperfections and that's refreshing to me. The writers had a chance to do that with Randall and it seems they started out that way but took a turn somewhere.

[ShadowFacts]

18 minutes ago, ByaNose said:

I wonder if show will ever get in to the Rebecca and Miguel hook up. It seems like it's too invested in the Jack and Rebecca storyline to devote time to the Miguel part.

They probably will right before he dies.  He's older than Rebecca if he's roughly Jack's age, and she's about 70 now, and he's not in the future so far.  I think of him as Miguelito Loveless -- the name from a Wild, Wild West character, loveless because he gets none.

6 minutes ago, mommalib said:

Actually Kevin started it when he taunted Randall's failure to save Jack.

Which is 100% bogus because Jack didn't need saving from the fire, he had a heart attack.  Kevin lobbed that one as a result of his own guilt in not being there. 

[Blakeston]

If Kate had gotten into an argument with her brothers, and said those awful things, then I could easily believe that she was just being as hurtful as possible, without actually meaning what she said. Because we've never heard her express those sentiments before.

But I think all of the awful things that Randall and Kevin said had real feelings behind them. We've seen the basis for all of these comments in the past.

There were four comments in that argument that stand out in my mind as being especially incendiary:

1. Kevin blaming Randall for not running into the burning house and dragging Jack out.

2. Randall blaming Kevin for not being there when the fire happened.

3. Randall saying that Jack died ashamed of Kevin.

4. Kevin saying that the worst day of his life was when Jack and Rebecca brought Randall home.

This is not the first time we've heard #1 and #2. As young adults, not long after Jack died, Kevin and Randall said the same things to one another. They both carry a lot of blame and resentment for the others' actions that night.

For #3, we know that Kevin said something vicious to Jack right before the fire, and we know that Jack had moments of absolute disgust with Kevin's attitude not long before that. I don't think "ashamed" is the right word, but of course hyper-judgmental Randall would see it that way.

And for #4, Kevin made it abundantly clear throughout his childhood that he didn't want Randall as his brother. So far as we know, he never even referred to Randall as his brother until they were 36.

Do I think that Kevin truly, in his heart, thinks Randall being adopted was a bigger tragedy than Jack's death? No, I don't. But on some level I think he sees Randall's adoption as a disaster for his life. It wasn't a sentiment he just invented to be mean.

Also, it seemed like the actors made a deliberate choice to avoid looking hysterical or out-of-control in that scene. Kevin had a look of realization on his face when he made that last comment, not a look of "what's the worst thing I can say right now?"

[sasha206]

5 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

If Kate had gotten into an argument with her brothers, and said those awful things, then I could easily believe that she was just being as hurtful as possible, without actually meaning what she said. Because we've never heard her express those sentiments before.

But I think all of the awful things that Randall and Kevin said had real feelings behind them. We've seen the basis for all of these comments in the past.

There were four comments in that argument that stand out in my mind as being especially incendiary:

1. Kevin blaming Randall for not running into the burning house and dragging Jack out.

2. Randall blaming Kevin for not being there when the fire happened.

3. Randall saying that Jack died ashamed of Kevin.

4. Kevin saying that the worst day of his life was when Jack and Rebecca brought Randall home.

This is not the first time we've heard #1 and #2. As young adults, not long after Jack died, Kevin and Randall said the same things to one another. They both carry a lot of blame and resentment for the others' actions that night.

For #3, we know that Kevin said something vicious to Jack right before the fire, and we know that Jack had moments of absolute disgust with Kevin's attitude not long before that. I don't think "ashamed" is the right word, but of course hyper-judgmental Randall would see it that way.

And for #4, Kevin made it abundantly clear throughout his childhood that he didn't want Randall as his brother. So far as we know, he never even referred to Randall as his brother until they were 36.

Do I think that Kevin truly, in his heart, thinks Randall being adopted was a bigger tragedy than Jack's death? No, I don't. But on some level I think he sees Randall's adoption as a disaster for his life. It wasn't a sentiment he just invented to be mean.

Also, it seemed like the actors made a deliberate choice to avoid looking hysterical or out-of-control in that scene. Kevin had a look of realization on his face when he made that last comment, not a look of "what's the worst thing I can say right now?"

Very good points!

[Scarlett45]

32 minutes ago, milner said:

Was no one else bothered by Kate and Toby immediately being able to scroll through pictures of children needing to be adopted?  It was like  “let’s adopt.  Check out amazon!!”  Is it even legal to post pics of kids like that?   And choose based on looks alone. Seems a bit like a pedophiles catalogue. It made me feel sick. 

Yes you are able to look at photos of children in need of adoption. A friend of mine adopted her son internationally two years ago and raises money and awareness for the organization she used. There are photos of kids separated by age, gender, available to single parents etc on the site all the time. 
 

But no you can’t “order” a child like on Amazon, it’s far more involved than that. 

[mommalib]

4 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

If Kate had gotten into an argument with her brothers, and said those awful things, then I could easily believe that she was just being as hurtful as possible, without actually meaning what she said. Because we've never heard her express those sentiments before.

But I think all of the awful things that Randall and Kevin said had real feelings behind them. We've seen the basis for all of these comments in the past.

There were four comments in that argument that stand out in my mind as being especially incendiary:

1. Kevin blaming Randall for not running into the burning house and dragging Jack out.

2. Randall blaming Kevin for not being there when the fire happened.

3. Randall saying that Jack died ashamed of Kevin.

4. Kevin saying that the worst day of his life was when Jack and Rebecca brought Randall home.

This is not the first time we've heard #1 and #2. As young adults, not long after Jack died, Kevin and Randall said the same things to one another. They both carry a lot of blame and resentment for the others' actions that night.

For #3, we know that Kevin said something vicious to Jack right before the fire, and we know that Jack had moments of absolute disgust with Kevin's attitude not long before that. I don't think "ashamed" is the right word, but of course hyper-judgmental Randall would see it that way.

And for #4, Kevin made it abundantly clear throughout his childhood that he didn't want Randall as his brother. So far as we know, he never even referred to Randall as his brother until they were 36.

Do I think that Kevin truly, in his heart, thinks Randall being adopted was a bigger tragedy than Jack's death? No, I don't. But on some level I think he sees Randall's adoption as a disaster for his life. It wasn't a sentiment he just invented to be mean.

Also, it seemed like the actors made a deliberate choice to avoid looking hysterical or out-of-control in that scene. Kevin had a look of realization on his face when he made that last comment, not a look of "what's the worst thing I can say right now?"

That argument had a reality to it and that's why I would be okay with Randall and Kevin not being involved with each other. They never had a good relationship to begin with. Randall should focus on getting his mind right and focusing on his wife and daughters. He should take a step back from his siblings and his mother. He was always the odd man out, it's Kevin and Kate that have the bond and if there is a side to be taken Kate will likely side with Kevin anyway. Kevin and Kate can band together to look after Rebecca.

[sasha206]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes you are able to look at photos of children in need of adoption. A friend of mine adopted her son internationally two years ago and raises money and awareness for the organization she used. There are photos of kids separated by age, gender, available to single parents etc on the site all the time. 

My late husband and I adopted our daughter from Russia; she was a year old.  They did send us a photo, but not a photo of all of the children available for adoption.

When we were in Russia, the caregivers at the orphanage kept telling me that my daughter looks just like me.  I truly believe the director chose my husband and I for that very reason.  

In general, girls are the most wanted in adoptions both US and internationally.  My problem with this storyline is that a morbidly obese woman is able to easily adopt a child that from what we see grown up has zero problems healthy wise.  Unless it was a private adoption, it is extremely unrealistic they would be able to adopt her.  I'm not even sure if they would be able to do an international adoption; IIRC I had to go through a physical.  

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, sasha206 said:

My late husband and I adopted our daughter from Russia; she was a year old.  They did send us a photo, but not a photo of all of the children available for adoption.

When we were in Russia, the caregivers at the orphanage kept telling me that my daughter looks just like me.  I truly believe the director chose my husband and I for that very reason.  

In general, girls are the most wanted in adoptions both US and internationally.  My problem with this storyline is that a morbidly obese woman is able to easily adopt a child that from what we see grown up has zero problems healthy wise.  Unless it was a private adoption, it is extremely unrealistic they would be able to adopt her.  I'm not even sure if they would be able to do an international adoption; IIRC I had to go through a physical.  

Given your husband has passed I am assuming your daughter is an adult now? I think websites with the kids photos on them are much more common in the last 5 years than they were previously-my friend adopted from Bulgaria. And she chose that country because they were one of the few that would let her adopt with her physical disabilities. (Her husband is not disabled but many countries wouldn’t let them adopt because she is). Their son has the same health condition she has, which wasn’t planned but meant to be. 
 

I can see Kate and Toby adopting privately. They are still a heterosexual white couple and although white girl babies are at a premium for adoption I can see a couple choosing them. They also may have adopted her as a toddler or young child. It’s possible. 

[gail56]

12 hours ago, leftlane said:

I think it is realistic. People say messed up things when their angry.

My husband and I have been married for almost 29 years and we know how to push each others buttons. We have had lots of fights where we bring up things that we know will cut the other deep when we are really, really angry with each other. Fortunately that does not happen often. Thing is, we know we don't really mean it and we apologize and get past it.

[sasha206]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Given your husband has passed I am assuming your daughter is an adult now? I think websites with the kids photos on them are much more common in the last 5 years than they were previously-my friend adopted from Bulgaria. And she chose that country because they were one of the few that would let her adopt with her physical disabilities. (Her husband is not disabled but many countries wouldn’t let them adopt because she is). Their son has the same health condition she has, which wasn’t planned but meant to be. 
 

I can see Kate and Toby adopting privately. They are still a heterosexual white couple and although white girl babies are at a premium for adoption I can see a couple choosing them. They also may have adopted her as a toddler or young child. It’s possible. 

She's 18.  17 years ago, we had this thing called the interwebs.  Before the adoption process, I came across a website that had children available along with their photos.  Pretty sure the kids were Ukrainian and difficult to place adoptions.  

I'm not sure what your friend's physical disability is, but morbid obesity can shave years off a person's life b/c they are prime candidates for heart disease, diabetes, and even some cancers.  

So yes, it's doable.  LIkely, they'd allow her to adopt a child that has their own set of physical issues and therefore aren't easily placed.  

I just guarantee you the show will have them adopt way too easily -- similarly to how a couple were able to adopt Randall on the heels of losing the 3rd sibling.  Sure they'll probably have 1 episode where they have Kate suffer through a "hard" adoption, but then Randall will give the adoption center or private family a  speech on why his sister's the most perfect mother and voila, adoption granted!

[Jax7917]

28 minutes ago, mommalib said:

I have to say I'm disappointed with the road the writers have taken Randall down. I still find him to be a fascinating and interesting character but when I think back to how he started out in season 1 as a devoted husband, father and son who was kind of a dorky nice guy with some emotional issues and then to look at him now as somebody who is almost defined by his flaws and imperfections. As a black male I see very few leading black male characters who are just strait up good guys, the leading black male characters are more likely to resemble Lucious  Lyon or Ghost St Patrick. You know anti-heroes or villain's That's why I like shows like God Friended Me and SWAT because black male leading characters like Miles and Hondo are good guys who aren't perfect(because nobody is) but they don't drown in those flaws and imperfections and that's refreshing to me. The writers had a chance to do that with Randall and it seems they started out that way but took a turn somewhere.

Randall is a good guy, but do you expect the writers to just have him be perfect and not have any flaws ? None of the characters on this show or any show are perfect . This isn’t a racial thing . It’s a tv drama thing . 

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Randall is a good guy, but do you expect the writers to just have him be perfect and not have any flaws ? None of the characters on this show or any show are perfect . This isn’t a racial thing . It’s a tv drama thing . 

Yes but how often do we get to see black men in family dramas like this? I understand where @mommalib is coming from. I’m glad they gave Randall emotional depth and nuance- he can be a loving husband, dutiful son, committed to family life etc, but also narcissistic and selfish. It’s also rare to see people of color deal with anxiety on tv so that’s great too- but I know why people can be protective of the character. 

 

7 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

She's 18.  17 years ago, we had this thing called the interwebs.  Before the adoption process, I came across a website that had children available along with their photos.  Pretty sure the kids were Ukrainian and difficult to place adoptions.  

I'm not sure what your friend's physical disability is, but morbid obesity can shave years off a person's life b/c they are prime candidates for heart disease, diabetes, and even some cancers.  

So yes, it's doable.  LIkely, they'd allow her to adopt a child that has their own set of physical issues and therefore aren't easily placed.  

I just guarantee you the show will have them adopt way too easily -- similarly to how a couple were able to adopt Randall on the heels of losing the 3rd sibling.  Sure they'll probably have 1 episode where they have Kate suffer through a "hard" adoption, but then Randall will give the adoption center or private family a  speech on why his sister's the most perfect mother and voila, adoption granted!

I know we had the internet 17 years ago. 🤣 I’m not that young. 
 

My friend has SMA- much rarer than morbid obesity. Her husband is obese (like many Americans) but not disabled and they were able to adopt internationally. Yes I know morbid obesity can shave years off people’s lives- I was commenting on individuals I know in real life that have adopted even with that particular health issue (and ones that effect their health even more deeply). 
 

(Bolding mine) This I can see 100%!!
 

 

[mommalib]

I also find it funny that people are talking about how they hate Randall but also seem to either not mention or forget that Randall has a case of high anxiety an actual medical issue that he's dealing with. I bet if Kevin had a case of anxiety it would be poor Kevin.

[sasha206]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes but how often do we get to see black men in family dramas like this? I understand where @mommalib is coming from. I’m glad they gave Randall emotional depth and nuance- he can be a loving husband, dutiful son, committed to family life etc, but also narcissistic and selfish. It’s also rare to see people of color deal with anxiety on tv so that’s great too- but I know why people can be protective of the character. 

 

I know we had the internet 17 years ago. 🤣 I’m not that young. 
 

My friend has SMA- much rarer than morbid obesity. Her husband is obese (like many Americans) but not disabled and they were able to adopt internationally. Yes I know morbid obesity can shave years off people’s lives- I was commenting on individuals I know in real life that have adopted even with that particular health issue (and ones that effect their health even more deeply). 
 

(Bolding mine) This I can see 100%!!
 

 

And I appreciate that.  

I just think they'll make the adoption process as easy as it was for them to adopt Randall and that annoys me!

 

[mommalib]

11 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Randall is a good guy, but do you expect the writers to just have him be perfect and not have any flaws ? None of the characters on this show or any show are perfect . This isn’t a racial thing . It’s a tv drama thing . 

 

11 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Randall is a good guy, but do you expect the writers to just have him be perfect and not have any flaws ? None of the characters on this show or any show are perfect . This isn’t a racial thing . It’s a tv drama thing . 

It's one thing for a character to have flaws it's another thing to have a character be defined by them and at this point I feel that's what they have done with Randall. And maybe it's not a racial thing to you but as a black man I can't help but feel like it is.

[nilyank]

I also think what is setting off both Kevin and Randall is the anxiety and anger that they are feeling because their mother is gravely ill.

To handle it, Kevin wants to make everything easier for her by letting her do her own thing. Meanwhile, Randall is trying to fix and control things.

However deep down both of them know that this illness is never going to be cured and it is only going to get worse. They lost their father tragically and never got a chance to say goodbye. Meanwhile, they are going to lose their mother and at the end, she may not even recognize them when they do say goodbye.

They can't really express their feelings to their mother so they turn on each other. 

 

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, mommalib said:

I also find it funny that people are talking about how they hate Randall but also seem to either not mention or forget that Randall has a case of high anxiety an actual medical issue that he's dealing with. I bet if Kevin had a case of anxiety it would be poor Kevin.

I don’t forget Randall has anxiety. I do feel bad at him for that. But that doesn’t excuse him from his choices. For example I can have sympathy for someone with an addiction, but when you choose to drive drunk and hurt others (even non fatally) you are still wrong for the harm you did. Randall intentionally harmed his Mom and his brother emotionally for HIM. That was wrong and he has to take responsibility. 

[sasha206]

3 minutes ago, mommalib said:

 

It's one thing for a character to have flaws it's another thing to have a character be defined by them and at this point I feel that's what they have done with Randall. And maybe it's not a racial thing to you but as a black man I can't help but feel like it is.

I'm white and I've also had the same thought -- they started this show with a character that is inspiring and now they make him a manipulative, hurtful person.   Why are they making Randall now the least likable of the 3?

Edited March 25, 2020 by sasha206

[Bringonthedrama]

9 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

To be fair, Kevin first said that Randall should have saved Jack, and that if he had been there nothing would have stopped him from going in after him.  We have recently seen that Randall thinks every day about how he should have saved his father, so when he heard that he quickly came up with that awful lie about how Jack died ashamed of Kevin.  Then Kevin responded.  I do wonder how Randall had that lie about Kevin right on the tip of his tongue, though,  I guess it's because he has no respect for anything Kevin's ever done? 

I believe Kevin said that because he was absolutely, finally, totally fed up with Randall's behavior regarding their mother. Kevin knows Randall manipulated their mother into saying yes to the trial because he thinks his idea will "save" their mom after he "failed" to save their dad. He was trying to say if he'd been there that night, he would have been the better son and he's over Randall's "I'm the best son in the whole wide world, and I know what's best" mentality. (He actually knows quite well that neither of them could have saved Jack; he was calling out Randall's idiotic savior complex/ I-should-have-been-dad's-hero mindset.)  He flat-out said he'd had enough of Randall's superior, martyr mentality. Then in return Randall decided he wanted Kevin to feel like an utterly worthless human being - certainly not capable of touching Jack's or his own greatness. 

Kevin's reply about regretting that their parents ever adopted Randall, while cold, was in part true and frankly Randall deserved it. Kevin never got the love and attention he needed and deserved as a child because of how their parents raised them. Jack and Rebecca didn't truly mourn Kyle; they replaced him with an abandoned baby in need of a home and then overcompensated in parenting Randall because they didn't want him to feel that being a black child in a white family meant he didn't belong.  There's no way they would have adopted Randall had Kyle survived. They neglected Kevin and poorly parented Randall (no black role models/refusing to acknowledge that life was different for him, no addressing his anxiety issues as a real concern, and later Rebecca letting him be 'in charge' of her life.) Both Kevin and Randall need to acknowledge that.

[mommalib]

15 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes but how often do we get to see black men in family dramas like this? I understand where @mommalib is coming from. I’m glad they gave Randall emotional depth and nuance- he can be a loving husband, dutiful son, committed to family life etc, but also narcissistic and selfish. It’s also rare to see people of color deal with anxiety on tv so that’s great too- but I know why people can be protective of the character. 

 

I know we had the internet 17 years ago. 🤣 I’m not that young. 
 

My friend has SMA- much rarer than morbid obesity. Her husband is obese (like many Americans) but not disabled and they were able to adopt internationally. Yes I know morbid obesity can shave years off people’s lives- I was commenting on individuals I know in real life that have adopted even with that particular health issue (and ones that effect their health even more deeply). 
 

(Bolding mine) This I can see 100%!!
 

 

You understand exactly what i'm talking about and particularly over the last 2 seasons they seem to revel in highlighting Randall more negative qualities.

7 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

I'm white and I've also had the same thought -- they started this show with a character that is inspiring and now they make him a manipulative, hurtful person.   Why are they making Randall now the least likable of the 3?

That's a good question.

[thesupremediva1]

8 hours ago, mommalib said:

That's the kind of thing that wouldn't have been said about Randall after season 1 but here we are. And it sound like somebody doesn't appreciate the shine Sterling K gets even though it's deserved. 

I literally have no clue how you extrapolated that last point but it's completely off base. Sterling K. is INCREDIBLE and I've adored him since he played Gordon on Supernatural. He deserves his Emmys. 

I can adore Sterling K. and now despise Randall. Honestly, it's a kudos to Sterling that he even plays the disgusting shit Randall does convincingly.

Randall was lovable the first three seasons, if misguided. In fact, I have numerous posts on this forum identifying with and defending Randall on many fronts. However, what he's done in the past couple of weeks has deeply disturbed me.

I've also gone on record a few times saying Justin Hartley is underappreciated. He brings a lot to the show - it's not just Sterling K, Mandy, and Milo who carry the heavy acting lifting. 

[stefinny]

11 hours ago, cardigirl said:

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Twins run in the family!

Which family? I don’t think it’s the males that determine that sort of thing, especially fraternal twins, is it? 

You are right.  It has nothing to do with the males.

[sasha206]

2 minutes ago, mommalib said:

You understand exactly what i'm talking about and particularly over the last 2 seasons they seem to revel in highlighting Randall more negative qualities.

That's a good question.

Hopefully this is just a story arc, just like Kevin was once portrayed as the most selfish and Kate was sort of the mean.

[txhorns79]

6 minutes ago, mommalib said:

It's one thing for a character to have flaws it's another thing to have a character be defined by them and at this point I feel that's what they have done with Randall. And maybe it's not a racial thing to you but as a black man I can't help but feel like it is.

I would have liked to see more of Beth's reaction to what Randall had done with Rebecca.  She clearly didn't seem on board with his plan, and seemingly knew there was going to be a blow up over it.  

I'm not sure how I feel about Kate and Toby adopting.  I feel like they are barely over all the issues which surrounded Jack's birth and his first year.  I also really hated Toby's framing of the situation making it seem as though a new sibling was something Jack needed, and that Jack would somehow be hurt if Kate didn't go along with it.  I'll just say this: You should not adopt a child based on the idea that your child needs a sibling.  You should adopt a child if you feel you are up to taking care of another child and that is what you want.          

[mommalib]

11 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t forget Randall has anxiety. I do feel bad at him for that. But that doesn’t excuse him from his choices. For example I can have sympathy for someone with an addiction, but when you choose to drive drunk and hurt others (even non fatally) you are still wrong for the harm you did. Randall intentionally harmed his Mom and his brother emotionally for HIM. That was wrong and he has to take responsibility. 

I'm not saying he shouldn't take responsibility for his actions. Everybody here can see that no matter his motivation he's being an ass by how he's going about it. But it seems his condition gets forgotten altogether at times.

[thesupremediva1]

Weird that I had a dream about this show,  but I think I figured out how Sophie gets back in the picture.

Kevin and Sophie's last interaction was at her mom's funeral. I think she will be the one who encourages Kevin to forgive Randall for his actions by explaining how painful the funeral was, and how she'd give anything for any extra time with her mom, and that's what Randall was trying to give them.

Beth, of course, will help Randall see the error of his ways and push him toward reconciliation with his brother. There will be some sort of obvious parallel between how Beth is a guiding light for Randall and how Sophie has always been that for Kevin, and all will become clear, etc. 

I don't know, maybe I could be off base here, but it feels like a natural narrative progression and I wanted to write it down before I forget it. 

[AriAu]

Wow.....this is a lot of content for this early on the day after!

Wow, those 2 brothers really, really wanted to hurt each other....

1. Randall by projecting his feelings about Kevin into Jack...since there is no way that Randall knew that Jack was ashamed and clearly Randall places no value o n Kevin or his life.....of course until he needs him.

2. Kevin really hitting the things that he knows crush Randall like blaming himself for Jack's death and then the ultimate blow to any adopted child.....altho I do think that Kevin has felt that way for a long, long time.....at least since middle school when he was clearly showing resentment.

I continue to be amazed that both boys think they could have saved Jack since, I don't know, Jack didn't die in the fire, he died of a "widowmaker" heart attack after being in the fire for a relatively short time and the longer they had tried to pull him out, the longer he would have been in there.

I love the little nuggets they give us like the wedding rings and the sister and the fact the baby is named Hope and not Kate etc...

Madison-ugh. And while Sophie may be the end game, she was here just to smirk at the ad! Now Cassidy, that one only makes sense from a continuity standpoint with Uncle Nicky, who seems like a whole new person....living in the new RV!

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by AriAu

[txhorns79]

2 minutes ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Kevin and Sophie's last interaction was at her mom's funeral. I think she will be the one who encourages Kevin to forgive Randall for his actions by explaining how painful the funeral was, and how she'd give anything for any extra time with her mom, and that's what Randall was trying to give them.

But that isn't what actually happened.  Rebecca made a choice Randall didn't like, so he manipulated her into going along with what he wanted because he can't relinquish his desire to control the situation.  He then let his mother make it seem as though it was her idea, and was fine with letting her lie to everyone as a means to protect him from the blowback.

[mommalib]

13 minutes ago, Bringonthedrama said:

I believe Kevin said that because he was absolutely, finally, totally fed up with Randall's behavior regarding their mother. Kevin knows Randall manipulated their mother into saying yes to the trial because he thinks his idea will "save" their mom after he "failed" to save their dad. He was trying to say if he'd been there that night, he would have been the better son and he's over Randall's "I'm the best son in the whole wide world, and I know what's best" mentality. (He actually knows quite well that neither of them could have saved Jack; he was calling out Randall's idiotic savior complex/ I-should-have-been-dad's-hero mindset.)  He flat-out said he'd had enough of Randall's superior, martyr mentality. Then in return Randall decided he wanted Kevin to feel like an utterly worthless human being - certainly not capable of touching Jack's or his own greatness. 

Kevin's reply about regretting that their parents ever adopted Randall, while cold, was in part true and frankly Randall deserved it. Kevin never got the love and attention he needed and deserved as a child because of how their parents raised them. Jack and Rebecca didn't truly mourn Kyle; they replaced him with an abandoned baby in need of a home and then overcompensated in parenting Randall because they didn't want him to feel that being a black child in a white family meant he didn't belong.  There's no way they would have adopted Randall had Kyle survived. They neglected Kevin and poorly parented Randall (no black role models/refusing to acknowledge that life was different for him, no addressing his anxiety issues as a real concern, and later Rebecca letting him be 'in charge' of her life.) Both Kevin and Randall need to acknowledge that.

So let me get this strait a black adopted child who was raised by a white family and already has issues of feeling out of place and different or feeling like the "other" deserved to have his brother tell him that he basically wished he never existed? Really? As if Kevin didn't make that clear enough to Randall when they were growing up with his nasty behavior. So Randall deserved it but oh poor Kevin though? Please

[MissLucas]

30 minutes ago, mommalib said:

I also find it funny that people are talking about how they hate Randall but also seem to either not mention or forget that Randall has a case of high anxiety an actual medical issue that he's dealing with. I bet if Kevin had a case of anxiety it would be poor Kevin.

His anxiety issues and his OCD tendencies are actually the things I can relate to most when it comes to Randall. But the way he handles those are also the things that I find extremely exhausting. Countless times have I felt guilt about the fact that my issues made life more complicated for family and friends and I've been going the extra mile whenever I could to make up for it. And I also acknowledged my issues and looked for help. Randall has so far not shown a shred of self-awareness. He was going blind FFS!! and he had a meltdown during the birth of his first child and Rebecca had to comfort Beth during labor. These two instances alone should have made him realize that he needs help. Instead he keeps deluding himself with his tales of martyrdom and heroism and makes a mockery of therapy. So yeah, until he's finally ready to face the music I reserve my sympathy for those around him and keep my seat on the 'screw Randall' boat.

Edited March 25, 2020 by MissLucas

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll just say this: You should not adopt a child based on the idea that your child needs a sibling.  You should adopt a child if you feel you are up to taking care of another child and that is what you want.          

I agree with you. But people use this logic to have biological kids all the time. Going back to my experiences as someone with a disabled sibling (I’m the oldest so this isn’t my story)- many people in my support group were EXPLICITLY TOLD that they were conceived and born so that 1. their older disabled sibling could have a caretaker, 2. Their parents could have a “normal” child and all the social experiences that go along with that. 
 

At least In this scenario it’s not about Jack needing a full time caretaker (plenty of blind people live independently), or them wanting a sighted child. And they are giving a child a home that didn’t have one, better than Kate risking her life for another pregnancy or spending money on a surrogate. 

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, milner said:

Was no one else bothered by Kate and Toby immediately being able to scroll through pictures of children needing to be adopted?  It was like  “let’s adopt.  Check out amazon!!”  Is it even legal to post pics of kids like that?   And choose based on looks alone. Seems a bit like a pedophiles catalogue. It made me feel sick. 

If you go to adoptuskids.org it has a link to every state’s photo listing of kids in foster care who are available for adoption. It may seem gross to you, but the idea is that someone is more likely to adopt a kid whose name they know, who they can see, and who has a short bio they can read. It makes it more personal. Of course, you can’t just click on the link and immediately bring that kid home. It’s way more complicated than that. But the photo listings are real.

[sasha206]

13 minutes ago, mommalib said:

So let me get this strait a black adopted child who was raised by a white family and already has issues of feeling out of place and different or feeling like the "other" deserved to have his brother tell him that he basically wished he never existed? Really? As if Kevin didn't make that clear enough to Randall when they were growing up with his nasty behavior. So Randall deserved it but oh poor Kevin though? Please

The more I thought about that comment the more it bothered me as a mom to an adopted child.  They already have lifelong issues with being "unwanted" by their bio parent(s) and having people tell them they are "unwanted" simply b/c of being adopted.

I will never forget when this woman at my niece's birthday party thanked me for adopting an "unwanted" child.  It literally made my skin crawl being thanked when I clearly am the lucky one and to hear an adult use the word "unwanted" just made me want to throat punch her!  I was thankful that at least my daughter wasn't close by to hear that comment.

Edited March 25, 2020 by sasha206

[blondiec0332]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

Also, it seemed like the actors made a deliberate choice to avoid looking hysterical or out-of-control in that scene. Kevin had a look of realization on his face when he made that last comment, not a look of "what's the worst thing I can say right now?"

I agree with this. It was like Kevin was saying it because it was a thought that suddenly became real. He might have over the years had that thought cross his mind but he pushed it down but after Randall told him their dad was ashamed of him Kevin let that thought come to surface and said it.

[mommalib]

4 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

His anxiety issues and his OCD tendencies are actually the things I can relate to most when it comes to Randall. But the way he handles those are also the things that I find extremely exhausting. Countless times have I felt guilt about the fact that my issues made life more complicated for family and friends and I've been going the extra mile whenever I could to make up for it. And I also acknowledged my issues and looked for help. Randall has so far not shown a shred of self-awareness. He was going blind FFS!! and he had a meltdown during the birth of first child and Rebecca had to comfort Beth during labor. These two instances alone should have made him realize that he needs help. Instead he keeps deluding himself with his tales of martyrdom and heroism and makes a mockery of therapy. So yeah, until he's finally ready to face the music I reserve my sympathy for those around him and keep my seat on the 'screw Randall' boat.

Randall is just now getting to the point of recognizing he has a problem and that goes back to his role model Jack. That's where he got the attitude of whatever you're going through you just handle it yourself. It may have taken him a lifetime but he's there and he still deserves some sympathy.

[mommalib]

5 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

The more I thought about that comment the more it bothered me as a mom to an adopted child.  They already have lifelong issues with being "unwanted" by their bio parent(s) and having people tell them they are "unwanted" simply b/c of being adopted.

I will never forget when this woman at my niece's birthday party thanked me for adopting an "unwanted" child.  It literally made my skin crawl being thanked when I clearly am the lucky one and to hear an adult use the word "unwanted" just made me want to throat punch her!

At first I was just referring to Randall feeling out of place but your absolutely right about factoring in feelings of being not wanted. People seem to feel that Randall is not worthy of sympathy. I think it all goes back to what I been talking about, sympathy for a black man is like pulling teeth lol.