S04.E16: New York, New York, New York

[Tikichick]

10 hours ago, Bringonthedrama said:

That moment where Randall tells Kevin he wonders about it every day really drove home the point for me that being Randall must be exhausting, and life must truly be exhausting for Beth. Emotionally, Randall is stuck in time as that teenage boy on the lawn, seeing his father on the roof as the house burned. He has tried to manage and control everything in life since that moment. He thinks he should have done something different to "save" their dad; now he thinks he would "save" mom by setting her up for the clinical trial but his brother got in the way of that goal. Seems like he needs to feel he is the only son their mom can depend on, and also that he needs to feel superior to Kevin, in order to function in life.

IMO it's worse than that.  Randall is continuously stuck in many, many pivotal points of his past AND generally making what he considers to be key decisions about the future.  Overall anything that in his mind is important he makes monumentally important and everyone else should see whatever it is as equally important.  

It's a shame that everything with young Randall was treated as so vitally important by Jack and Rebecca, particularly Rebecca overcompensating for her struggle to immediately bond with him as an infant while mourning for the baby she lost.   Once she began that stroll down the overcompensation path she committed to the point it became a death march.  

[MissLucas]

16 minutes ago, mommalib said:

Oh please Kevin has been a jerk to Randall their entire childhood. Randall gets in some digs and all of a sudden Randall was the jerk? Stop

Yes, season one certainly made no qualms of how much a jerk Kevin was to Randall (it also provided some insight to the why - but he was still not a pretty sight). I think the writing room pushed that angle a bit too hard - just like right now it's pushing the Randall-jerk angle to the max. I wonder if that's deliberate in the sense of perception-creates-reality (i.e. the writing this season is more leaning to give us Kevin's POV and back in season one it was more Randall's POV). Or maybe it's simply the writing room pulling a not-so-subtle manipulative move.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

34 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

My then 15 year old daughter, not even a whole year after my husband's death at 52 from colon cancer did exactly that!  Not really set me up, but came home telling me one day about how her favorite teacher that she thought I would like.   I wasn't interested, and I ended up reconnecting with my high school crush.  She was excited for me to date my crush.  She wanted me to be happy.  Ironically, I didn't end up introducing her to him until my mom's 80th birthday party. 

Anyway, the set up is not surprising to me having lived through it (although I was surprised that my daughter was ready for me to date).  And it doesn't seem odd to me that Kevin did have the biggest issue with MIguel, but that's probably because Miguel was a regular part of their lives as Dad's best friend.  I think a kid would wonder if he was lusting after her the whole time?

Even though I know some people think it was weird for Kevin to try to set Rebecca up with Kirby, I think that wanting your mom to date/be happy after your dad dies is a healthier attitude than the kids who never want the surviving parent to date or remarry.

I get that no one wants to feel like their mom or dad has been replaced but it's really selfish for someone to want their surviving parent not to have that kind of love, support, and companionship (which is completely different from the kind of love and companionship they get from their children) for the rest of their lives, especially in the case of someone who was widowed as young as Rebecca was.

I agree that Kevin's hostility towards Miguel was because he was Jack's friend. I'm guessing that if Rebecca had married her high school sweetheart or some new random guy, Kevin would have been a lot more welcoming and accepting of her new husband.

[kili]

Randall trying to direct Rebecca's treatment was mirrored in Jack's trying to direct the family to the Museum of Natural History. Neither was listening to Rebecca who is actually the one who should be consulted (either because it is her life or because she understands the city better). 

[Scarlett45]

12 minutes ago, mommalib said:

But at this point I think Randall should take a step back from his mother and his siblings and just focus on his wife, his kids, and his therapy. Let Kevin and Kate look out for Rebecca.

I think that’s as likely to happen as Kate being a size 10 In the next 18months (not bashing Kate- I’m using it as an example of a possibility but a statistical improbability). 
 

Randall would have to be in a coma OR Beth/the girls would be for him to take focus off of Rebecca in that huge way. Family dynamics and personality don’t change like that at the drop of a hat, especially when people don’t want to change. Also with Rebecca’s cognitive decline Randall would want to focus on her more, as he doesn’t know how long is Mom, the woman who raised him will still be herself. 

[hookedontv]

6 hours ago, Lily H said:

I was really disturbed by Rebecca's  snotty and completely uncalled-for reaction when the acting teacher said that carriage rides aren't good for the horses. A horse just recently collapsed and died from the overwork and abuse that is heaped daily on them for selfish tourists.

^^^ Thank you @Lily H. I thought the same thing. 

[chitowngirl]

6 hours ago, Lily H said:

I was really disturbed by Rebecca's  snotty and completely uncalled-for reaction when the acting teacher said that carriage rides aren't good for the horses.

I think Rebecca’s reaction was that the acting teacher sneered at carriage rides as being cheesy and for the tourists. It’s one of her fondest memories. If Rebecca would have said “Oh look, carriage rides,  my family did that X years ago and we loved it,” the teacher probably wouldn’t have said what he did.

My husband, kids and I relocated away from “home” because of a job transfer. I missed many, many years from friends and family, including time with my late parents that I’ll never get back. Do I wallow in it every single day? Of course not! That’s not mentally healthy. So we can see how Randall has been spiraling for years. And now that Rebecca has moved out of his orbit, he has lost that control too. Beth is a saint.

[ShadowFacts]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think that’s as likely to happen as Kate being a size 10 In the next 18months (not bashing Kate). Randall would have to be in a coma OR Beth/the girls would be for him to take focus off of Rebecca in that huge way. Family dynamics and personality don’t change like that at the drop of a hat, especially when people don’t want to change. Also with Rebecca’s cognitive decline Randall would want to focus on her more, as he doesn’t know how long is Mom, the woman who raised him will still be herself. 

It won't happen overnight at all, but I think one of the aims of his therapy will be to do just that.  And to loosen his grip on having to control everything/everyone. We see at the end of Rebecca's life that he has in fact ceded control of Rebecca's living situation, maybe a long time before.

I think all three siblings have to come to better acceptance of what happened the night of the fire.  We may see the beginnings of that soon with Randall.  With Kevin, yes, as others have mentioned he could have been killed himself if he had been there, but I'm sure his mind went to the scenarios where he was sleeping on the living room sofa, or in the kitchen for a snack, and could have saved them all.  Kate and her dog causing Jack to go back in.  What they all need to have driven home is that Jack had the heart blockage, this hasn't been emphasized enough.  Kevin and Kate are at risk for heart problems.  That's the reality, but all the other guilt and regret has been dragging them down for decades now.  It's time for all of them to be free of it, or at least more free.

[Scarlett45]

@ShadowFacts you put it beautifully. 

[Rachel RSL]

15 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I agree that Kevin's hostility towards Miguel was because he was Jack's friend. I'm guessing that if Rebecca had married her high school sweetheart or some new random guy, Kevin would have been a lot more welcoming and accepting of her new husband.

I think this is 100% spot on.  The amazing thing about this show is that there is something that almost everybody can relate to. In my case, I can relate to this storyline the most because I had a "Miguel".  Long story short: My dad had a stroke when I was 10 and, eventually, his best friend ended up with my mom.  It was almost the exact same scenario as on the show,  And I have always found the Pearsons' relationship with Miguel to be extremely accurate.  You're happy that your mom isn't alone but, in the back of your mind, you will always think of "Miguel" as your dad's best friend who is now sleeping with his wife.  My brother and I never had an issue with any other men my mom dated but we always had an issue with our "Miguel".  And, like the adult Pearson kids, our relationship with him was almost the same as on the show, our "Miguel" was treated with a polite indifference.  It may not be fair but that's just reality, the relationship the Pearson kids have with Miguel seems extremely realistic to me.

I'm still not on the Randall hate-train yet.  I mean, he's not wrong, he's been the responsible one their entire lives.  When the show premiered, wasn't one of Kevin's opening scenes him frantically calling his sister to get a girl out of his house because he was so irresponsible and helpless he had to hide in a closet until Kate got there?  I can definitely understand why Randall would be hesitant to give up control.  That being said, he definitely needs to stay in therapy.  He's got plenty of issues of his own to work out.

[HollyGoLitely333]

8 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

I can't think of a more earned slam than Kevin's money-related one; Kevin has been subject to Randall's condescension for so long that it was very satisfying to see him turn the tables for even a second.

Yep, and while it was a little more subtle than Kevin's present-day money related slam, Randall actually threw the first grenade in that fight 20 years ago when he, at the dinner table in NYC, said [paraphrase] You only call mom when you need money for your ridiculous acting class" [/paraphrase]. Welp, now he's paying it back to her and then some and you don't get to call the shots with his well earned acting money, Randall. 

Decades of douchebaggery. 

[sasha206]

8 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

It won't happen overnight at all, but I think one of the aims of his therapy will be to do just that.  And to loosen his grip on having to control everything/everyone. We see at the end of Rebecca's life that he has in fact ceded control of Rebecca's living situation, maybe a long time before.

 

Somehow overnight, he was able to get over his mother keeping his birth dad a secret his whole life, even when he managed to find his dad! 

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Somehow overnight, he was able to get over his mother keeping his birth dad a secret his whole life, even when he managed to find his dad! 

That wasn’t overnight. He didn’t speak to her for WEEKS. (Between Thanksgiving and Christmas) He was truly and justifiably angry. I’m sure that was the longest he had ever gone without speaking with his mother. 

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, camom said:

But Randall is not rational.  He wanted to bulldoze her (and his siblings) with absolutely no concern for her wants and desires.  Randall knows what's best.  Period.

I loved how he underplayed the fact that his plan would require his mother spending 9 months in a strange city.  He was like, "we can come visit you every week!"  Yeah, that sounds like a great plan, Randall. 

[sasha206]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

That wasn’t overnight. He didn’t speak to her for WEEKS. (Between Thanksgiving and Christmas) He was truly and justifiably angry. I’m sure that was the longest he had ever gone without speaking with his mother. 

Ha, I just thought the anger should've lasted much longer than one episode and that there would be residual anger interspersed in other episodes.

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, plenty of people are voicing their desire to punch, slap and make sure it is known that Randall is 100% asshole and Kevin now is the knight.  It's been written to elicit this reaction and it's kind of annoying/manipulative.  I do hope they stop making these characters so either/or.  It risks making them into walking stereotypes. Luckily the acting is good or it could get cartoonish.

It's definitely feels manipulative. It's like see Kevin has always been the good brother/son and Randall the asshole. It's starting to tick me off. 

[mommalib]

26 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

He doesn't want to lose his mother and has been there for her when Kevin wasn't.   The only time younger Kevin made contact with his mother is when he needed money.  Kevin was and is the asshole.  Randall had horrible timing, and his pompous overbearing attitude can be a bit off putting, but at the end of the day, he is desperate to save his mom.

Kevin doesn't want to look back at his past.   Assholes usually don't.   He is the "get over it" type of asshole.  Kevin maybe all "sunshine and rainbows" now, but he still has an asshole persona that won't go away and will come back.

Younger Kevin tried to set up his mom without giving her the heads up.  Another jerk move.

And then Rebecca wants to walk in the park with a complete stranger?  She isn't very smart.

Randall isn't the only one that never gave two shits about Miguel.  Kevin and Kate haven't exactly embraced Miguel either.

 

The thing is Kevin is an angel now so we are supposed to forget that he has been a self absorbed ass throughout his life. Meanwhile Randall's perspective doesn't matter and we aren't supposed to sympathize with him at all. Just skip past that and get to hate.

Edited March 11, 2020 by mommalib

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Kevin doesn't want to look back at his past.   Assholes usually don't.   He is the "get over it" type of asshole.  Kevin maybe all "sunshine and rainbows" now, but he still has an asshole persona that won't go away and will come back.

I think Kevin looked back at his past pretty hard during his rehab and subsequent sobriety. He has made active choices to be less of a dick and to help other people, including his family (Nicky, now Rebecca). And he has always been there when Randall really needed him. I do think that Randall is acting out of love/fear and desperately wants to save his mother - and I get that. But ruining her night and then blaming Kevin for 'abandoning' them, when he promised he would wait was completely dickish. He wants to play 'what if'? Well what if he had waited to ambush her until til the morning, when Kate and Kevin were both present and still on board? What if that, you arrogant asshole?

7 hours ago, Lily H said:

I was really disturbed by Rebecca's  snotty and completely uncalled-for reaction when the acting teacher said that carriage rides aren't good for the horses. A horse just recently collapsed and died from the overwork and abuse that is heaped daily on them for selfish tourists.

I think Rebecca had an immediate negative reaction to learning that the carriage rides were harmful to the horses. If he'd left it there, they probably would have continued their evening. It was him deriding anyone who ever took one as mouth-breathing hick tourists that put the kibosh on things.

Edited March 11, 2020 by gonzosgirrl
clarity

[chitowngirl]

And Kate’s going to be in the middle of all this, probably as she has been her whole life. Maybe another reason she turned to eating her feelings as a coping mechanism.

[ShadowFacts]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think Rebecca had an immediate negative reaction to learning that the carriage rides were harmful to the horses. If he'd left it there, they probably would have continued their evening. It was him deriding anyone who ever took one as mouth-breathing hick tourists that put the kibosh on things.

I kind of took it just slightly differently -- I thought it was the imagery of Jack and the family happy in their carriage that took her right out of the moment, which she was not ready for anyway.  I think if it hadn't been that comment, it would have been something else that made her uncomfortable.  She's doing something by going with him that she thinks she should be open to because Kevin is pushing it, but she isn't nearly ready.  A year is nothing.  She has Miguel there in the friend zone, that's all she can handle now.

[ams1001]

Someone on another site pointed out something I hadn't thought of. Assuming Rebecca hasn't given her kids power of attorney, if it comes down to someone having to make medical decisions for her, legally those decisions would ultimately be up to Miguel. Imagine that drama. (And she is perfectly capable of making her own decisions at this point, which Randall needs to recognize and respect.)

[AnythingCanBe]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Yes, season one certainly made no qualms of how much a jerk Kevin was to Randall (it also provided some insight to the why - but he was still not a pretty sight). I think the writing room pushed that angle a bit too hard - just like right now it's pushing the Randall-jerk angle to the max. I wonder if that's deliberate in the sense of perception-creates-reality (i.e. the writing this season is more leaning to give us Kevin's POV and back in season one it was more Randall's POV). Or maybe it's simply the writing room pulling a not-so-subtle manipulative move.

I've been thinking the same thing as the bolded.  In the season one, for example, we saw the childhood moments where Kevin treated Randall like an outsider and how that shaped them and their relationship into adulthood.  Now, we see the childhood moments where Randall belittled Kevin and we realize that the hostility wasn't so one-sided.  I bet if you asked Kevin and Randall to tell you about their preteen years, you would get slanted pictures too.  Not sure if it's intentional by the writers, but it's interesting.  I'm getting to a point of struggling to empathize with Randall now though.

 

On an arguably brighter note, this show actually led to my having a really good conversation with my mom this morning.  My parents have been dragging their feet when it comes to living wills, estate planning, etc.  They're in their early 60s and fortunately are healthy, but nothing is guaranteed.  We got to talking about how it's really important for them to make their wishes known now so my siblings and I aren't left guessing and fighting one day if my parents aren't able to make decisions for themselves.  The show really made clear how unhealthy difficult sibling dynamics can be magnified when parents are aging/ill.  My siblings and I are close, but we also have some personality differences and history that I bet would bubble up if we have to make tough choices about our parents' care one day.  Thinking about it from that angle made a big impact on my mom.

[nilyank]

Miguel was presumably in California with Rebecca and the twins. Why didn't Randall conference call Miguel in that call?

You know Randall put all the blame on Kevin because Rebecca decided that she doesn't want to do the trial. If she said yes, he would say then that Rebecca made the right choice and currently in Kevin's current framework, he would have supported her.

[zoey1996]

13 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Dave Annabel and Mandy worked together as a romantic pairing on some medical show, with Octavia Spencer. Name escapes me.

It was the Red Band Society.  From Wikipedia:,"the series focuses on a group of teenagers living together as patients in a hospital's pediatric ward."  Spencer and Annable were in the main cast; Moore was a recurring cast member.

10 hours ago, bybrandy said:

And his imagine how life would be if dad were still alive?  Well, you wouldn't have gone to the university where you met Beth.  Next.     

Yes!

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like I need to go back and rewatch the previous seasons, but has kid Randall always been such an ass to Kevin, or is that new this season?  More than once in the flashbacks, Randall makes an snide comment about Kevin which goes unnoticed by the parents while Kevin's reaction is what gets flagged.  Yes, Kevin shouldn't call his brother a buttmunch, but Randall didn't need to yuck on Kevin's yum about Home Alone 2.  Or correct Kevin about the Entire State Building.  But yet, both Jack and Rebecca seem oblivious to this.  

 

2 hours ago, mommalib said:

Oh please Kevin has been a jerk to Randall their entire childhood. Randall gets in some digs and all of a sudden Randall was the jerk? Stop

Yeah, there have been several examples of how poorly Kevin treated Randall when they were growing up.

Randall clearly still has "issues" that need to be addressed.  Overall I think he's a good man with good intentions, but his "mental illness" keeps winning out over the kind or rational choices that he could/should be making.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I kind of took it just slightly differently -- I thought it was the imagery of Jack and the family happy in their carriage that took her right out of the moment, which she was not ready for anyway.  I think if it hadn't been that comment, it would have been something else that made her uncomfortable.  She's doing something by going with him that she thinks she should be open to because Kevin is pushing it, but she isn't nearly ready.  A year is nothing.  She has Miguel there in the friend zone, that's all she can handle now.

You may be right about the reason for her fleeing, but my main point was in response to the idea that Rebecca had a 'snotty and uncalled for' reaction to the knowledge about the horses being harmed by the work. She didn't.

[bybrandy]

39 minutes ago, zoey1996 said:

Randall clearly still has "issues" that need to be addressed.  Overall I think he's a good man with good intentions, but his "mental illness" keeps winning out over the kind or rational choices that he could/should be making.

Yes, Randall is totally 100% in the wrong here but it is so clearly whatever control issues he has amplified by 1000% by the mental health issues he's only just starting to even attempt to get serious about addressing and that doesn't get better overnight because you open up to a therapist one time.   Clearly this is going to get worse before it gets better but I have no doubt Randall is going to get pulled around to the more rational side of this.

[sigmaforce86]

I liked, and when I say liked I mean respected or thought was clever not enjoyed, the way they showed that Randall hasn't changed in how he views his Mother, their relationship and his responsibilities.  A year after Jack's death Randall is very, very sure that his Mom shouldn't be dating or looking at other men, Kevin is automatically wrong in trying to even introduce Rebecca to another guy and Randall can take care of things no other man needed in his Mom's life.  Jump forward about 20 years and - Randall is very, very sure that his Mom should go to the clinical trial he found, Kevin is automatically wrong for even wanting to delay talking about it and Randall can take care of things no need to consult the man currently in his Mom's life even though Randall's solution effectively takes Rebecca away from her actual husband for nearly a year.

Those two scenes made it very clear how Randall see's his role and the lack of respect he has toward others who might have even a small opinion about how his Mother's life should go.

They both landed some low blows in that argument but Kevin was not wrong this time.  I wish he had said this to Randall, I wish Randall had thought of it himself but..........Why couldn't Randall have compromised, why did he have to hit her with the big sell right at the party.  So she was upset because she couldn't remember the hotel name and he wanted to comfort her - how about "Mom I know you get upset when you have an episode and forget something.  In fact I had some ideas about that and Kevin and I wanted to talk to you about it over breakfast.  But let's not let it spoil tonight, let's just have fun and enjoy the party.   We can talk more in the morning if you want, tonight is about fun and family".    

Rebecca did look wonderful in that dress.  I do wonder though how late is the museum open that they went to the movie premier after it was dark out, watched the entire movie, spent time at the after party and Rebecca STILL had time to gain admission and see the painting - even accounting for winter's early sunset shouldn't it have been something like 10-11pm by then?  

[NUguy514]

4 hours ago, mommalib said:

Well as far as I'm concerned screw Kevin's Randall's arrogant self centered ass.  

FTFY.

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, sigmaforce86 said:

Rebecca did look wonderful in that dress.  I do wonder though how late is the museum open that they went to the movie premier after it was dark out, watched the entire movie, spent time at the after party and Rebecca STILL had time to gain admission and see the painting - even accounting for winter's early sunset shouldn't it have been something like 10-11pm by then?  

I had the same thought about the Met being open that late.  I also was trying to figure out how Kevin and Randall even found Rebecca in the museum before closing time.  The logistics in the is episode tonight were totally off.  Jack, Rebecca and the kids missed more than one subway stop if they ended up in Queens instead of the the Upper West Side.  

[ShadowFacts]

17 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I had the same thought about the Met being open that late.  I also was trying to figure out how Kevin and Randall even found Rebecca in the museum before closing time.  The logistics in the is episode tonight were totally off.  Jack, Rebecca and the kids missed more than one subway stop if they ended up in Queens instead of the the Upper West Side.  

I was curious so I looked, and it is open til 9 pm Fridays and Saturdays.  What was really off was unless the premiere was very, very close to the museum, like next door, how did Rebecca get over there and into the particular gallery in minutes?  She went to get her coat, Randall and Kevin sparred a few minutes, and she was at the Met.

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Randall saw the frustration in his mother when she couldn't recall what hotel they were staying in.  I don't think he would have brought up the clinical trial if she hadn't had a memory issue.  He probably saw it as an opening to talk about the subject.

An opening, or a convenient excuse to give himself permission to do exactly what he wanted to do all along? I don't think Rebecca was so upset that a 'it's just a word, Mom, no need to panic over it' wouldn't have helped her through it, especially when she was having such a good time otherwise. Or at least not have her fleeing the room. Instead, he made sure she couldn't escape the fact of her illness, even for one more evening and informed her how he thought it was a good idea to send her away to a hospital to get help.

Edited March 11, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Crs97]

4 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Experimental trials are just that. My husband, Stage IV colon cancer, got into an experimental treatment program.  Unfortunately, it was already too late to have any affect.  If he had told me that he didn't want to do it or continue it, I would have understood and supported it. 

I am so sorry, Sasha.  My dad attempted a trial for his mesothelioma, and my mom said her regret was that she thinks he tried it for her and she should have told him he could say no.  
 

Yes, Randall was wonderful in season one, but we started to see his cracks early on; the contempt he showed for his family during his therapy rant discolors any of the good stuff he has done previously (at least to me).  Kevin has screwed up royally many times on this show, but we see him learning and humble.  
 

I knew two couples who were best friends and did everything together, including vacations.  One wife died; years later one husband died; years later the remaining pair ended up marrying.  They got all sorts of grief, even though it was so clear they had been desperately in love with their spouses and never cheated.  There is just something about these kinds of situations that brings out the worst in people’s imaginations.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

I love how Kevin shut Randall down, I was waiting for him to add that Randall isn't even blood!

That, IMO, would be unforgivable. Take it from an adopted child who was once referred to by her (bio child) sibling as 'a piece of paper'. You never forget that, no matter how much you love (or not) your sibling.

10 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

St. Jack will never die! I do wonder though how long Miguel was harboring feelings for Rebecca, it is kind of odd for him to step into the role after his best friend dies. Kind of creepy.

Miguel is seen helping Rebecca in the year following Jack's death - not abnormal for a best friend, I think. Then there was a considerable passage of time apart before they got together, unless they are going to retcon them 'reuniting' on Facebook after Tess's (I think) birth.

[ams1001]

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

Rebecca did look wonderful in that dress.  I do wonder though how late is the museum open that they went to the movie premier after it was dark out, watched the entire movie, spent time at the after party and Rebecca STILL had time to gain admission and see the painting - even accounting for winter's early sunset shouldn't it have been something like 10-11pm by then?  

According to their website, they're open until 9 on Fridays and Saturdays...

40 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Randall saw the frustration in his mother when she couldn't recall what hotel they were staying in.  I don't think he would have brought up the clinical trial if she hadn't had a memory issue.  He probably saw it as an opening to talk about the subject.

These people have no concept of appropriate time and place to discuss something. Even if she was upset, in the middle of a party full of strangers is not the time or place to have a conversation like that.

42 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Kate and Kevin haven't done anything in terms of research in an effort to help their mom.  Nothing.  It all falls on Randall.  That shouldn't be the case, but it has been ever since Jack died.   It would be nice to see what Miguel thinks about all of this.  He should have been playing a role in this from the start.  The writers have dropped the ball when it comes to Miguel.

To be fair, Randall has also known about it longer than K&K have. (Not sure the timeline between the blind-baby retreat, the cabin, and the current night, though.) And Rebecca made it pretty clear to Kevin what she needs from him right now, and it's not serious discussions about medical trials. It does bug me how they leave Miguel out of everything. Even if they don't like him that much, he's still her husband. The decisions they're talking about need to involve him.

4 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

St. Jack will never die! I do wonder though how long Miguel was harboring feelings for Rebecca, it is kind of odd for him to step into the role after his best friend dies. Kind of creepy.

I think it was implied in an early episode that he at least had a crush on her when Jack was still alive. But they fell out of touch at some point after Jack's death and didn't get together until at least 10 years later (when Tess was born and Rebecca got on Facebook). It's not like he just moved right in after Jack was gone. (I really wish they would give us more - or any! - of that story. We've gotten basically nothing since the scene where she gets his Facebook message. If it turns out they lost touch because he tried to make a move too soon and it made things weird, I might change my opinion. Right now it's just kind of a blank so I don't know what I think.)

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

Rebecca did look wonderful in that dress.  I do wonder though how late is the museum open that they went to the movie premier after it was dark out, watched the entire movie, spent time at the after party and Rebecca STILL had time to gain admission and see the painting - even accounting for winter's early sunset shouldn't it have been something like 10-11pm by then?  

You know, I didn't love the bob and glasses with that dress.  It kind of felt a little too much "librarian on her night out."  I thought it would have looked better with her hair up and some more chic frames. 

 

57 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

It would be nice to see what Miguel thinks about all of this.  He should have been playing a role in this from the start.  The writers have dropped the ball when it comes to Miguel.

It amazed me that Randall was fine with shipping off Rebecca to St. Louis for nine months without even discussing it with her husband.  The lack of respect for his mother's marriage from someone who brags about how he has "been there" for his mother for 20 years just makes me want to scream. 

[Rachel RSL]

17 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

I think it was implied in an early episode that he at least had a crush on her when Jack was still alive.

Miguel made quite a few sketchy comments about Rebecca and about his own marriage when Jack was still alive.  I'd have to go back and rewatch the early episodes to get exact quotes (I'm not going to) but I definitely remember thinking the douchiness was strong in Miguel, long long before Jack died, which is the main reason I have never been able to warm to his character.

[Crs97]

When Jack was drinking too much, Miguel told him he was crazy to ignore a woman as wonderful as Rebecca.  Afterwards, he called and left a message apologizing to Jack that his comment might have crossed a line.  That is the only sketchy thing I remember Miguel saying about Rebecca.

[Rachel RSL]

Like I said, I don't remember details but I recall there was also a scene where Miguel was kind of trashing (marriage in general/his own marriage/ Jack spending time with Rebecca) - sorry I legit can't remember the details - and it prompted an extremely loud "Shut up, Miguel!" from me at the time.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Rachel RSL

[kirkola]

5 hours ago, mommalib said:

Oh please Kevin has been a jerk to Randall their entire childhood. Randall gets in some digs and all of a sudden Randall was the jerk? Stop

I think Randall is acting the jerk because he is spiraling into depression and possibly panic and/or manic attacks.  The man needs serious therapy.  So far, we've seen that he has panic attacks and is an over achiever.  As an adult, he quit his job, found his bio-dad, took in his bio-dad, lost his bio-dad, bought the run-down apartment building where bio-dad used to live, ran for office, and moved his family to Philadelphia.  In addition, he's had his house broken into and beat the snot out of a purse-jacker.  Randall is not okay. He's not in a healthy place.  I love and adore Randall, so I hope the therapy works for him and he learns to take a breath every now and then.

Kevin has always been a jerk to Randall, since they were little.  Younger Kevin is an absolute snot.  Hell, even adult Kevin is an overgrown man-child who can afford to do whatever he wants whenever he wants.   He has also exhibits alarming behavior.  He sleeps with so many random women, I'm surprised he doesn't have an STD named after him.  He has a meltdown on set of his hit TV series, he drives drunk with his young niece in the car (admittedly, he wasn't aware she was there), he turns down jobs left and right, flies to Vietnam on a whim to "find his Dad", tracks down an Uncle (who frankly didn't want to be found), insists on rescuing said Uncle (again, didn't ask to be rescued).  Kevin's only redeeming value is that he did take his therapy sessions seriously and is trying to improve. 

Truthfully, Kevin is right this one time when it comes to his Rebecca's treatment.  Giving Rebecca the one good day before trying to convince her that going away to treatment was the right idea.  Randall is right that Kevin hasn't been there the entire time since St. Jack died, taking care of Rebecca.  And having Kevin swoop in is frustrating.  But Kevin gets a win here because he's actually listening to Rebecca and her needs. 

Also, it's fairly obvious that Randall, Kevin & Kate learned to "railroad over others until they acquiesce to your demands" from St. Jack.  It and the speechifying are the Big 3's least admirable traits.  I cringed watching St. Jack ignore and silence Rebecca all through the New York trip.  I know it was part of their generation.  But I hated it when my Dad did it to my Mom...I don't like it watching Jack do it to Rebecca.

[LoveLeigh]

15 hours ago, HollyGoLitely333 said:

I have less than zero interest in the alternate reality world episode next week. Boo. Prove me wrong, show. 

Are we going to see Uncle Nicky again this season?

And I am totally interested in the alternate reality. The show was getting redundant and boring. I can get lost in different possibilities. 

And it will be interesting to see how the alternate reality impacts Nicky and the Pearsons going forward. 

[ams1001]

6 minutes ago, kirkola said:

Kevin has always been a jerk to Randall, since they were little. 

Kevin has also been seen to drop everything (opening night of his play!) to be there when Randall had a breakdown, and do other, smaller things to help him when his anxiety was getting the better of him (as someone mentioned elsewhere in this thread).

[Rachel RSL]

Kevin was absolutely there for Randall, which was great, but he also completely and totally screwed over Sloane and everyone else in that play, which isn't exactly a feather in his cap for showing how responsible he is.

[MissLucas]

10 minutes ago, kirkola said:

I think Randall is acting the jerk because he is spiraling into depression and possibly panic and/or manic attacks.  The man needs serious therapy.  So far, we've seen that he has panic attacks and is an over achiever.  As an adult, he quit his job, found his bio-dad, took in his bio-dad, lost his bio-dad, bought the run-down apartment building where bio-dad used to live, ran for office, and moved his family to Philadelphia.  In addition, he's had his house broken into and beat the snot out of a purse-jacker.  Randall is not okay. He's not in a healthy place.  I love and adore Randall, so I hope the therapy works for him and he learns to take a breath every now and then.

The list is exhausting and yet you forgot to add: nearly had his marriage fall apart, fostered and adopted a teenager with a very difficult backstory, has a bio-daughter who just came out and is already displaying signs of anxiety issues (has one more daughter but nobody really cares about her). 

[CarpeFelis]

I haven’t watched this episode yet, but the discussion’s made me realize there’s one more thing to add to the list of reasons I can’t stand Rebecca. The Big 3 constantly ignore, discount or otherwise disrespect Miguel. They are just her kids; HE IS HER HUSBAND. Why the hell hasn’t she had a come-to-Jesus discussion with them about how she won’t tolerate their treatment of her husband? Is she really so oblivious she hasn’t noticed it? Has she noticed it but is too much of a wimp to stand up to her kids? Or (worse yet) does she actually think it’s OK? If she does, her priorities are even more messed up than I’d thought.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Kevin was absolutely there for Randall, which was great, but he also completely and totally screwed over Sloane and everyone else in that play, which isn't exactly a feather in his cap for showing how responsible he is.

True, but it shows his loyalty to his family, which is what Randall was basically trashing him for. Kevin at least finally hit his rock bottom and got help. I hope Randall does the same. Kate too, for that matter.

 

ETA: It occurs to me how shocked I am to find myself both admiring defending Kevin. In S1/S2 he was my least favourite character and I wanted to kick his ass most of the time. I think it speaks to the writing of his character development that I have grown to love him. I don't often change my mind about people.

Or maybe it's just that he's becoming more like Jack all the time, and I love me some Jack. Heh.

Edited March 11, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[kirkola]

3 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

The list is exhausting and yet you forgot to add: nearly had his marriage fall apart, fostered and adopted a teenager with a very difficult backstory, has a bio-daughter who just came out and is already displaying signs of anxiety issues (has one more daughter but nobody really cares about her). 

Oops.  And I was worried I missed a few in Kevin's list....

The very fact that we are getting to see Randall's manic behavior and his eventual recovery is compelling to me.  I like that each character is a living and breathing person and not a caricature.  

 

[Rachel RSL]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: It occurs to me how shocked I am to find myself both admiring defending Kevin. In S1/S2 he was my least favourite character and I wanted to kick his ass most of the time. I think it speaks to the writing of his character development that I have grown to love him. I don't often change my mind about people.

Heh, I'm just as conflicted too.  I've come to warm to adult Kevin, especially in recent episodes where he seems to have matured a lot but, whenever they flash back to younger Kevin, it reminds me what an obnoxious little fucker he was.

[cardigirl]

3 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Heh, I'm just as conflicted too.  I've come to warm to adult Kevin, especially in recent episodes where he seems to have matured a lot but, whenever they flash back to younger Kevin, it reminds me what an obnoxious little fucker he was.

Awww, he often had good reason. His parents pretty much ignored him as a child. I think they felt he could handle himself and didn't need as much attention as "Bug" or Randall did, and boy did Kevin notice.  Mom was very very close to Randall throughout their entire childhood. Kevin was always having to beg for attention from mom and dad.  ALWAYS. 

I have two kids, both very different in how they respond to life, and what worked for one didn't always work for the other, and it can be really easy to fall into the trap of thinking that one is okay because he/she is not having an issue with being popular, or worrying about school or whatever.  Some of the most heartbreaking moments on this show for me have been when Kevin has been tossed aside because Randall's needs came first.   A recent episode where he bugged his mom to take him to get baseball cards because he got a couple of A's was so sweet, because she finally joined in with him in something that was important to him. 

One of my favorite episodes about Kevin is from season 1, when he's explaining to his nieces about the painting of life.  It's a beautiful scene for Justin and he handles it well. 

As for Randall, my favorite episode this season was the therapist asking him if he really thought it was true that his family would have fallen apart if he hadn't held them together. Hahahahahahahaha ha!  That's what good therapists do.  Challenge your assumptions about yourself.   I hope she hangs in there with him. 

[mommalib]

2 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

FTFY.

Cute but I posted what I meant.

[Quiet1]

I still love Randall and really love Randall with Beth and the kids. I love this show. No one is perfect, they all have faults and struggles. Seems very real life to me. They all love each other and know they can rely on each other too. It was nice seeing the big 3 regroup at the cabin together and be there for each other recently. Just enjoying their journey and I don't see anyone as the "bad" one, etc. At different times there are things to like and dislike about everyone.