S04.E16: New York, New York, New York

[Alice Mudgarden]

54 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't think it's ultimately beneficial for kids to think they're entitled to and going to get a fair slice of any particular thing, including time.  Unless you're an only child, you're going to get the short straw from time to time and that's not a bad life lesson to absorb.  One of my kids' kindergarten teachers used to tell whining kids "you get what you get and you like it."  Because the parsing of who got more or better becomes endless.  When things went awry, these Pearson kids were actually pretty chill in their reactions for pre-teens. 

I think you and I are looking at it from different perspectives. It's not about being entitled to anything, it's about letting your three equal kids feel that they're equal. None of your kids should be feeling like they consistently are getting the short end of the stick. That's not about entitlement; that's about giving a fair amount of something to each child.

To put it in terms of the show: Kevin has never felt equal and look at how it affected him.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Alice Mudgarden

[kili]

Quote

I don't think it's ultimately beneficial for kids to think they're entitled to and going to get a fair slice of any particular thing, including time.  Unless you're an only child, you're going to get the short straw from time to time and that's not a bad life lesson to absorb. 

If you look at any individual event in the Pearson children's lives, that would be true. The problem is that if you look at the collective history, Kevin consistently gets the short straw. Randall always gets a long straw, Kate is second in line and Kevin gets one only if he throws a fit.

Randall could benefit from being given a short straw from his parents once and a while, but have we ever seen his parents deny him anything? Has he ever not gotten their full attention when he wanted and needed it (probably only during the sequence fight day).  Randall was shocked when his mother moved to California to help with her new disabled grandchild. He's shaken that he doesn't get his way with her treatment.  If Randall wasn't inherently a pretty good person, the amount of spoiling he got from his parents would have made him completely insufferable.

Sure, the unequal portioning of the day isn't wrong in itself if it weren't for the pattern. And to top it all off, they only have one day in New York because they are headed to Randall's Debate Tournament so he is already getting the lion's share of the trip. 

[Tikichick]

On 3/11/2020 at 11:01 AM, txhorns79 said:

I loved how he underplayed the fact that his plan would require his mother spending 9 months in a strange city.  He was like, "we can come visit you every week!"  Yeah, that sounds like a great plan, Randall. 

The part that sunk it for me was his statement that those in trials do better than those who don't do trials.  Seems like a very Jell-O statistic to prove in the first place, but it also seemingly overlooks completely those in the trials who do not in fact get the test med.  They are in fact part of the trial, simply on the control group of the blind study.

[cameron]

You could just see on Jack's face how much he resented Rebecca's family for the ability to providing the nice trips to NYC for her.  Tried to match up and couldn't do it.   He needs to get over this.

 

[Lone Wolf]

On 3/11/2020 at 2:10 AM, debraran said:

It was Plaza but it's both now, condo and very expensive rooms. Kevin really stayed in room 411.

Can you still stay at the Plaza Hotel?

From our one-of-a-kind Eloise Suite, to our ultra-luxurious Penthouse Suites, The Plaza's unparalleled accommodations are as unique as they are elegant. Our spacious guest rooms offer classic appointments and furnishings as can only be expected from New York's most legendary address.

I had a feeling it was going to be the Plaza when Katie said she wanted to have tea like Eloise.  That was a minor plot point in The Sopranos when Carmella and Meadow had an annual tradition of going into the city for tea at the Plaza.

I need to call a reality check on this show.  I don't think Kevin would have left his own premiere party early, any more than I think Sophie would have disappeared from her mother's post-funeral gathering.  Kevin was the star of that movie, Sophie had just buried her mom. They were both high profile, each had professional and personal obligations to others, and in the real world I think they would put their personal issues aside until their events were over.  

But of course, then we wouldn't have had such a dramatic show.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Lone Wolf

[chocolatine]

24 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

I need to call a reality check on this show.  I don't think Kevin would have left his own premiere party early, any more than I think Sophie would have disappeared from her mother's post-funeral gathering.  Kevin was the star of that movie, Sophie had just buried her mom. They were both high profile, each had professional and personal obligations to others, and in the real world I think they would put their personal issues aside until their events were over. 

Kevin left the play he was starring in on opening night five minutes before the curtain went up to help a distressed Randall. Leaving his premiere *afterparty* - the movie had already been screened - is nothing compared to that.

[cameron]

On 3/10/2020 at 10:12 PM, BuckeyeLou said:

Is it my imagination or was that Milo Ventimiligia playing the role of Kirby, the acting teacher?

It was the actor from Brothers & Sisters.

On 3/10/2020 at 10:22 PM, debraran said:

Am I the only one who thought forgetting the name of the Plaza wasn’t a big deal.? I work with many women 50 and over and we all do that . Men too.  She has issues but that was normal,at least according to many doctors opinions. For me it’s names of actors, comes much later or a movie name on occasion 

It was a big deal.

[cameron]

Jack is really wearing on me with his attitude and unwashed hair.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, Alice Mudgarden said:

I think you and I are looking at it from different perspectives. It's not about being entitled to anything, it's about letting your three equal kids feel that they're equal. None of your kids should be feeling like they consistently are getting the short end of the stick. That's not about entitlement; that's about giving a fair amount of something to each child.

To put it in terms of the show: Kevin has never felt equal and look at how it affected him.

I do not think, based on my experience as both a child in a large family once and a parent now, that there is really such a thing as equal.  Attention, time, things, they all get doled out at varying levels, some planned, some subconscious, some spur of the moment. But that's just my reality, yours may be quite different. That Kevin experienced being slighted, yes, I see it, they've shown it over and over.  I also see that from a young age he resented being pushed out of number one status by Randall (not Randall's fault) and that he thought he was supposed to be the star.  He himself wanted more than just equality, he wanted to be top dog.  In this episode I didn't see him or anyone (except Rebecca) get shortchanged.  Jack wanted the kids to have a good time and he didn't parcel it out to the minute.  That's not wrong to me.  We do see it differently, and that's OK.

[Crs97]

In our house we call it the mythical balance.  You try to make things equal, but how?  One child’s quality one-on-one time can’t be the trip to his physical therapist while the other’s is a movie or ballgame.  We just try our best, explain to our kids that sometimes their piece of pie is going to be a little smaller, and encourage them to speak up if they feel neglected.  Our kids also have caught on that parents sometimes get the short straw as well.  Too bad Kevin didn’t learn to speak up; of course, Rebecca rarely did either.

[Marley]

Honestly Randall is a huge asshole who probably has held Rebecca back since Jack died. Also he needs like insane amounts of therapy like I’m talking 2 time’s a day or something. 

I love Kevin tho and yea he’s not perfect but fuck off Randall.

Also I’m sorry not trying to be mean but kid Kate is not a good actor. She always has the same squinty eye look always lol.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Marley

[Johnny Dollar]

A few NYC-centric rants:

Who crosses the Brooklyn Bridge to get to Manhattan driving from PA?  No wonder they got lost.

Why would they take a subway that gets off on Lexington to go to the Natural History Museum that’s way across town and still twenty plus blocks up?

I don’t care how many times Rebecca went to Dad City as a kid, there’s no way she would know the subway routes in Queens.  Her dad didn’t look like a Mets fan.

Kevin must make Tom Cruise level money to be able to afford a last minute reservation at The Plaza in the Presidential Suite.

I hope Randall wasn’t planning on catching a particular train when he was walking from the Met to the train station. That’s got to be a couple of miles, at least.

The young Pearsons were staying overnight in a hotel, apparently near Central Park.  Unless their overnight was on Sunday (since back then the museum was closed on Mondays), why couldn’t they go to the Met on Sunday? Nobody would drive that far just to stay in a hotel on a Sunday and waste a full day of sightseeing because you had to leave early Monday.

Finally, there’s no way that crap they were eating was from a pizza place in New York City.

 

 

 

[Blakeston]

On 3/11/2020 at 3:44 PM, Crs97 said:

When Jack was drinking too much, Miguel told him he was crazy to ignore a woman as wonderful as Rebecca.  Afterwards, he called and left a message apologizing to Jack that his comment might have crossed a line.  That is the only sketchy thing I remember Miguel saying about Rebecca.

In the early episode in which we learned that Rebecca and Miguel are now married, we saw a scene in the past where Miguel made a comment to Jack about how lucky Jack was to "marry up" (or something to that effect).

It came across as a comment about Rebecca's physical attractiveness. But looking back, I suppose it could have been about Rebecca being from a richer family than Jack's.

Anyway, at the time, it created the appearance that Miguel had been lusting after Rebecca all along, and it did a lot to fuel anti-Miguel sentiment among the fans.

20 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

Kevin and Randall as kids were just about equally obnoxious to one another. But when Randall started trying to be the “man of the house” and presuming to know what’s best for his grown-ass mother, that’s where he started to be insufferable.

Randall definitely rolled his eyes at Kevin when they were kids, and he made dismissive comments when Kevin would say dumb things. But that doesn't compare to the sadistic way Kevin treated Randall throughout their childhood.

We saw Kevin intentionally humiliate Randall on a rare occasion when Randall found potential friends. Kevin had absolutely zero empathy when Randall was facing racist bullying at school - Kevin's reaction was to be irritated that Randall made his family "different." He shrugged and walked away when he saw Randall having a full-blown panic attack.

When Kevin and Randall got into that public fight in season one, and Kevin told Seth Myers that Randall was his brother, Randall pointed out that it was the first time Kevin had ever actually acknowledged that Randall was his brother. There were occasional moments when Kevin would try to help Randall, but they were very much the exception and not the rule.

Is it easy to see why Kevin resented Randall? Sure - but it wasn't Randall's fault that Jack and especially Rebecca favored him. Young Randall had plenty of reasons to resent Kevin, too, but we haven't seen him cross the line into viciousness the way that Young Kevin did. This wasn't a case of kids being equally obnoxious to one another.

[cameron]

On 3/12/2020 at 5:42 AM, debraran said:

Jack to be fair, always did that with Rebecca. He loved her but she followed him. From the start of the show, the apartment, the house, the cabin, the new house, he "included" her in the way some ask their kids, "Do you want to do this?" but not really wanting or hearing the negative answer. She was bright and was with the kids more. She saw Kate was not being healthy but Jack wanted to be her prince, she saw Randall's anxiety but Jack thought it could be fixed, Kevin was just "Kevin" but no one saw him at all. He did undermine her at times and even if not done in a cruel way, even asking her to change Kate's costume, showed her time and thoughts were not uppermost. I feel you were supposed to fill in the days we didn't see as being more of the same.  He loved her and his kids, but like all of us, didn't see the whole picture.

I still see that passiveness in her today but we had "thumbs up" moments where I cheered her aggressiveness and standing up for herself.

Well, she certainly didn't show any passiveness when she left the kids and family to go on a road trip singing with that band.  Personally, I couldn't even imagine doing this.

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

In the early episode in which we learned that Rebecca and Miguel are now married, we saw a scene in the past where Miguel made a comment to Jack about how lucky Jack was to "marry up" (or something to that effect).

It came across as a comment about Rebecca's physical attractiveness. But looking back, I suppose it could have been about Rebecca being from a richer family than Jack's.

Anyway, at the time, it created the appearance that Miguel had been lusting after Rebecca all along, and it did a lot to fuel anti-Miguel sentiment among the fans.

Randall definitely rolled his eyes at Kevin when they were kids, and he made dismissive comments when Kevin would say dumb things. But that doesn't compare to the sadistic way Kevin treated Randall throughout their childhood.

We saw Kevin intentionally humiliate Randall on a rare occasion when Randall found potential friends. Kevin had absolutely zero empathy when Randall was facing racist bullying at school - Kevin's reaction was to be irritated that Randall made his family "different." He shrugged and walked away when he saw Randall having a full-blown panic attack.

When Kevin and Randall got into that public fight in season one, and Kevin told Seth Myers that Randall was his brother, Randall pointed out that it was the first time Kevin had ever actually acknowledged that Randall was his brother. There were occasional moments when Kevin would try to help Randall, but they were very much the exception and not the rule.

Is it easy to see why Kevin resented Randall? Sure - but it wasn't Randall's fault that Jack and especially Rebecca favored him. Young Randall had plenty of reasons to resent Kevin, too, but we haven't seen him cross the line into viciousness the way that Young Kevin did. This wasn't a case of kids being equally obnoxious to one another.

Always thought the "marrying up" mean't you would getting into a richer family.

[Crs97]

I have heard many spouses say they married up and many (usually) male friends tell each other they married up.  I always take it like people introducing their spouse as their better half, emphasis on better.  It’s just a general compliment, IMO, and not a comment on money or looks.

[ShadowFacts]

13 hours ago, Crs97 said:

In our house we call it the mythical balance.

I like it.  It is applicable to so many things. You can aim for it, but there will always be limits on how successful you can be.

[Guiltypleasure25]

Young Randall yelling out at his dad not to go into the burning house was incredibly affecting.  That scene was so well done.

[debraran]

The marrying up wasn't lust, so many guys say that to each other and many say it about their wives. Usually taken as a joke but many times it's just a compliment to the other half.

[cameron]

3 minutes ago, debraran said:

The marrying up wasn't lust, so many guys say that to each other and many say it about their wives. Usually taken as a joke but many times it's just a compliment to the other half.

Think the connotation of the term is regional.  Where I'm from it mean't that you were marrying up on the economic ladder.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 3/11/2020 at 10:04 AM, mommalib said:

You hit the nail on the head with the demonization of Randall and the angelicizing of Kevin. I'm starting to get the feeling that has been the goal after season 1 when Randall was beloved. And I think the current image of both makes certain people more comfortable. But I guess it does make Randall an even more interesting character and highlights what a great actor Sterling is. 

I agree and I think I said this maybe a season ago or so.  The writers saw how insanely popular Randall was in Season 1 and it either wasn't in their plans or drove them crazy or made them think to be "interesting" they have to change this radically somehow.  I've felt that way for a long time and it caused me to bail on last season.  I came back a few episodes ago.  

[Lone Wolf]

16 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Kevin left the play he was starring in on opening night five minutes before the curtain went up to help a distressed Randall. Leaving his premiere *afterparty* - the movie had already been screened - is nothing compared to that.

Good point, and hopefully there was an understudy because he let Sloane down big time when he did that. Was he as big a star then as he was in this episode (it's not always easy to keep up with where everyone is in their lives with all the time jumps)?  IOW, did he have as much to lose professionally?

I get that he's maturing, becoming less self-centered, more like Jack, etc., but it takes me out of the moment when TV makes points that don't ring true to real life in order to further the plot. Or at least my perception of real life.  To paraphrase MST3K, I have to repeat to myself, it's just a show, I should really just relax...  

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Good point, and hopefully there was an understudy because he let Sloane down big time when he did that. Was he as big a star then as he was in this episode (it's not always easy to keep up with where everyone is in their lives with all the time jumps)?  IOW, did he have as much to lose professionally?

Going just from memory, but I think he went to New York to be a Serious Actor on the stage after quitting The Manny. I feel like his 'movie star' status came from the Stallone movie which got him Serious Actor recognition. I don't know what came between that and the Shamylan film that's premiering in this episode. So no, I don't think he had as much to lose then, and I would assume that every play has an understudy for the lead roles.

[SunnyBeBe]

18 hours ago, cameron said:

You could just see on Jack's face how much he resented Rebecca's family for the ability to providing the nice trips to NYC for her.  Tried to match up and couldn't do it.   He needs to get over this.

 

True. He seemed to ooze insecurity.  It would be exhausting putting up with that in a mate. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

True. He seemed to ooze insecurity.  It would be exhausting putting up with that in a mate. 

I don't know, Jack didn't seem that insecure/needy in other aspects of his/their life. And given the shitty things the father said to him, it's not surprising that hearing how wonderful he could be, especially over things that involved their station(s) in life, would be a sore spot.

Personally, I would love to have a mate like Jack, warts and all. I think his faults are far outweighed by his good qualities.

[Crs97]

I know our focus right now is the personality switch between Randall and Kevin, but it isn’t new to this show.  Miguel was hated at first, and people are coming around now.  Jack was saintly in season one until they finally started giving him some flaws.  The writers seem to love putting a character in a box and then seeing if they can write him/her out of it later on.

[SunnyBeBe]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know, Jack didn't seem that insecure/needy in other aspects of his/their life. And given the shitty things the father said to him, it's not surprising that hearing how wonderful he could be, especially over things that involved their station(s) in life, would be a sore spot.

Personally, I would love to have a mate like Jack, warts and all. I think his faults are far outweighed by his good qualities.

This is true. He did have some good qualities.  I should keep that in mind. 

[kili]

Quote

Going just from memory, but I think he went to New York to be a Serious Actor on the stage after quitting The Manny. I feel like his 'movie star' status came from the Stallone movie which got him Serious Actor recognition

He got the Stalone movie because Ron Howard saw him in the play, so the play was the start of his route to success.

Quote

I know our focus right now is the personality switch between Randall and Kevin, but it isn’t new to this show.  Miguel was hated at first, and people are coming around now.  Jack was saintly in season one until they finally started giving him some flaws.

In addition, Rebecca was also pretty much considered the "bad parent" in Season 1, but the has been redeemed to being a normal parent while Jack was brought down from his St. Jack-ness to the same level.

We saw hints of Randall and Kevin back in Season 1. Randall was moving people into the house and having anxiety attacks even back then. Meanwhile, Kevin gave his "life" speech to the girls and left his opening night to help Randall. If you look back, the writers are generally pretty good at dropping seeds in earlier season that bloom in later ones. I think Marc is one of the few thing that seems to have come in from left field.

[Miss Bones]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 6:29 PM, roughing it said:

There is no joy in Randall's life.  Maybe that's why he and Beth separate (divorce?) in the future.

I thought that was a red herring (last season?), and then we learned that they actually aren't broken up in the future?

[Tikichick]

53 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I know our focus right now is the personality switch between Randall and Kevin, but it isn’t new to this show.  Miguel was hated at first, and people are coming around now.  Jack was saintly in season one until they finally started giving him some flaws.  The writers seem to love putting a character in a box and then seeing if they can write him/her out of it later on.

This is Us -- warts and all.

[cameron]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

True. He seemed to ooze insecurity.  It would be exhausting putting up with that in a mate. 

Totally agree with your comment.

[cameron]

43 minutes ago, kili said:

He got the Stalone movie because Ron Howard saw him in the play, so the play was the start of his route to success.

In addition, Rebecca was also pretty much considered the "bad parent" in Season 1, but the has been redeemed to being a normal parent while Jack was brought down from his St. Jack-ness to the same level.

We saw hints of Randall and Kevin back in Season 1. Randall was moving people into the house and having anxiety attacks even back then. Meanwhile, Kevin gave his "life" speech to the girls and left his opening night to help Randall. If you look back, the writers are generally pretty good at dropping seeds in earlier season that bloom in later ones. I think Marc is one of the few thing that seems to have come in from left field.

Remember she was all into her wannabe singing career.  Willing to leave the family and go on a road trip with a local band.  In my books, bad Mother move.

[Crs97]

I had no problem with Rebecca rediscovering her love for singing when her kids were teenagers and planning a short tour with her new group.  I had a huge problem with Jack belittling her and driving drunk to ruin her gig.

[cameron]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

I had no problem with Rebecca rediscovering her love for singing when her kids were teenagers and planning a short tour with her new group.  I had a huge problem with Jack belittling her and driving drunk to ruin her gig.

Actually, neither one of them take the prize in my book.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, cameron said:

Remember she was all into her wannabe singing career.  Willing to leave the family and go on a road trip with a local band.  In my books, bad Mother move.

You know it's rather amazing how the characters of Kate and Rebecca are so much like the actresses, Chrissy and Mandy. 

Spoiler

They all are very much into vocal performances on a professional level, except they aren't exceptionally talented in that way.  And, yes, I realize Mandy's singing background and Chrissy's nomination, but, to me, they are limited vocally.  I just listened to them again on You tube and they have what I consider average talent. Rebecca never could get over the comment that she was Pittsburg good. lol  But, honestly, most churches have dozens of members who have voices as good as theirs.  Nonetheless, they both are very focused on their singing careers.......I guess they don't realize. IMO, they are much better actors than singers. 

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by SunnyBeBe

[mommalib]

4 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I agree and I think I said this maybe a season ago or so.  The writers saw how insanely popular Randall was in Season 1 and it either wasn't in their plans or drove them crazy or made them think to be "interesting" they have to change this radically somehow.  I've felt that way for a long time and it caused me to bail on last season.  I came back a few episodes ago.  

It seems that everybody that Randall deal with he's somehow in the wrong. Whether it's his wife, brother, mother, his daughters, etc. It's always he didn't do something right or didn't express something the right way. He has all these issues he needs to work on and he's a good man but..... he's an asshole. Kevin has been going in the opposite direction and I noticed that starting in season 2 when he went to therapy. Then all of sudden Kevin is the better brother, son, uncle, hell even went as far as nephew. And the little flashbacks to Kevin being there for Randall when he had panic attacks are never in short supply it seems. Randall has definitely been drained of his popularity from season 1 but what has also happened and probably because of Sterling's ability is that Randall has remained the shows most interesting character and the character most people will associate with the show more the any other.

Edited March 13, 2020 by mommalib

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, cameron said:

Remember she was all into her wannabe singing career.  Willing to leave the family and go on a road trip with a local band.  In my books, bad Mother move.

A lot of mothers have careers

Edited March 13, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[SunnyBeBe]

7 minutes ago, mommalib said:

It seems that everybody that Randall deal with he's somehow in the wrong. Whether it's his wife, brother, mother, his daughters, etc. It's always he didn't do something right or didn't express something the right way. He has all these issues he needs to work on and he's a good man but..... he's an asshole. Kevin has been going in the opposite direction and I noticed that starting in season 2 when he went to therapy. Then all of sudden Kevin is the better brother, son, uncle, hell even went as far as nephew. And the little flashbacks to Kevin being there for Randall when he had panic attacks are never in short supply it seems. Randall has definitely been drained of his popularity from season 1 but what has also happened and probably because of Sterling's ability is that Randall has remained the shows most interesting character and the character most people will associate with the show more the any other.

I think there is enough ass cutlery to go around in that family.  When Randall and Kev were standing at the movie premier arguing loudly enough that anyone nearby could have heard, they should have known better. Who's that dense? (And, it was over Rebecca's personal business and her health, which shouldn't be discussed so loudly in public.)  Recall the loud and rude arguments in the waiting room at the hospital when Kate had Jack?  They are often just don't know when to shut your  mouth people.  I guess the bad edit goes in cycles. 

[cameron]

6 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

A lot of mothers have careers

Totally agree about the career comment, IMO her singing was a lark on her part, not a career.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Just now, cameron said:

Totally agree about the career comment, IMO her singing was a lark on her part, not a career.

And a lot of mothers have jobs, too.

[Sake614]

15 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Why would they take a subway that gets off on Lexington to go to the Natural History Museum that’s way across town and still twenty plus blocks up?

And was there ever, I mean EVER a 57th & Lexington station? I've lived here my entire life and taken the subway for the last 50 years. There's a 59th st station with an exit at 58th but I can't recall a 57th st station except at 7th Ave.

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

When Randall and Kev were standing at the movie premier arguing loudly enough that anyone nearby could have heard, they should have known better.

That would have been viral video in a heartbeat. 

From Sake614: "And was there ever, I mean EVER a 57th & Lexington station?"

I think you have to give filmmakers a certain latitude in geographical license for the rest of the viewing audience that isn't familiar with the social or physical geography of New York.  Or LA, for that matter.  It's the same as showing live oak trees and manzanita around the Pearson family cabin in Pittsburgh.  I just gloss over it.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Dowel Jones

[txhorns79]

10 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Miguel was hated at first, and people are coming around now.

I feel for Miguel now because it's clear he must really love Rebecca to stay with her despite constantly being treated as a non-entity by her children.  I mean, Randall is calling votes on whether to send Rebecca to St. Louis for nine months, all without a word to her husband!  The sheer level of disrespect for Miguel that comes with doing something like that boggles my mind. 

[Aspiegirl5]

I blame Rebecca for how her children compete and fight with each other over her. She admitted to Kevin a season or two ago that Randall was essentially her favorite because he was easier. Rebecca failed to tell Kevin she was ill, then when he found out, she told him she needed him to be fun. When she told Kate, she said that Randall helped her, and it has freed her to be the fun Rebecca. However, she is never the fun Rebecca with Randall. It is only with him that she shows that she truly needs help or how badly she is hurting. So of course the other two don't see the full picture of Rebecca's memory lapses or frustration. It is unfair of Rebecca to put this on Randall but they have always had this dynamic. It was Jack who calmed and soothed Randall. And Randall is off the rails due to the compounded stress from the campaign, the move, Beth changing jobs, baby Jack and the break in. Kevin lied when he said he didn't think he could have saved his dad. He wasn't there that night and it has haunted him and contributed to his addiction. Each of the big 3 are deeply scarred by their fathers death and it will affect how they handle their moms illness. 

[HollyGoLitely333]

On 3/11/2020 at 1:06 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

On 3/11/2020 at 12:02 PM, ShadowFacts said:

I kind of took it just slightly differently -- I thought it was the imagery of Jack and the family happy in their carriage that took her right out of the moment, which she was not ready for anyway.  I think if it hadn't been that comment, it would have been something else that made her uncomfortable.  She's doing something by going with him that she thinks she should be open to because Kevin is pushing it, but she isn't nearly ready.  A year is nothing.  She has Miguel there in the friend zone, that's all she can handle now.

You may be right about the reason for her fleeing, but my main point was in response to the idea that Rebecca had a 'snotty and uncalled for' reaction to the knowledge about the horses being harmed by the work. She didn't.

These are both interesting takes. I took her reaction to be basically a combo of these two. I thought that not only did it jar her right into a vivid memory of Jack and the kids, he burst the bubble that the memory lived in by pointing out the flaws with carriage rides in Central Park. I think the memory being tarnished shook her and caused her to retreat so she could have those feelings alone because she realized it's a bit early to think about another man.

I also think that pull and push she's having with herself represents the two views of Kevin & Randall. Mom is ready, let me push her into socializing with a man (Kevin) and alternatively, she is not ready, I need to protect her and keep her away from dating. She's having that same internal struggle that the boys are having outside of her. Which they continue to have now that she's facing a huge medical issue, which is easily the most traumatic thing she's faced since Jack's death and the grieving that followed it. 

In carriage related news, when Jack said he got the idea from Home Alone 2, did anyone else do quick mental math before he said "Home Alone 2" to see if the timing worked out that he got the idea from the Seinfeld episode where Kramer operates a carriage in the Park and feeds the horse a can of beans? No, just me? Cause I really wanted him to say "I got the idea from Seinfeld!" Haha.

[bros402]

On 3/13/2020 at 2:15 AM, Johnny Dollar said:

A few NYC-centric rants:

Who crosses the Brooklyn Bridge to get to Manhattan driving from PA?  No wonder they got lost.

Finally, there’s no way that crap they were eating was from a pizza place in New York City.

 

 

 

I'm in NJ and yeaaaaah, wouldn't they take the GWB to get into Manhattan?

And yeah, that pizza was just.....did they even try to get something like NYC-area pizza?

[debraran]

Does anyone think Kevin in his anger for being away from the fire, when he said Randall should have helped his dad, that will come out as the emotional zinger in the larger argument they have?

I don't even think Kevin remembers.

[JudyObscure]

I hate to see any of them blame themselves for Jack's death. Only Jack is to blame for his own understandable, but far too risky, decision. Even Kate, who should have been shushed immediately for asking her father to go in for her dog, shouldn't blame herself, she was a kid who didn't realize how dangerous it was.  Jack, as the adult, should have made the responsible decision to stay out of the house.  If calling the dog didn't work then that was it.  Randall should realize that if Jack was going to go in for Kate, he wouldn't stay out because Randall told him not to.  Jack always wanted to be the hero for his family and that's why he was so wonderful, but it took him down a reckless path that last time.

I also hate to see anyone seriously angry at any of these characters.  I think the writers and actors have done an incredible job making them all into real people with human flaws.  They all have issues from their unusual upbringing as "triplets" and their father's early death.  Sure we all loved Randall the first season, he was such a loving husband and father, I can still see him dancing in the kitchen as he prepared Thanksgiving dinner.  I don't love him any less now that I see his struggles trying to be perfect for everyone.  Yes, I wanted to stop him from ruining Rebecca's big night, but I understood how desperate he feels to get her into that clinical trial and "cure" his mom.  As for his therapy session and the way he talked to his therapist -- that happens all the time -- if you don't come out of therapy either crying or furious, it wasn't a productive session. (Kidding, slightly) I took it as a sign she's a good psychologist and that they will make great process together. 

I don't think the writers are demonizing Randall at all. He still has the best intentions for everyone and he's still a loving husband, son and father even with an issue or two.  He's just more believable now that we've been shown a few weaknesses.  And wanting to protect his mother and his family is about the nicest weakness a man can have.  I also think even more Emmy's will be coming Sterling's way now that he has a more nuanced character to play.

Kate is doing well considering the load of guilt she probably carries for Jack having to be in incubation for so long, and Kevin is finally growing up and taking some responsibility in his life, but he does have  a less that perfect past.  

I don't think the writers are trying to change who the "best" kid is.  It's just alternating which ones are in good places each season.  Next season Kevin could backslide with his drinking and Randall's anxiety improve and it will all turn around again.

  Mommalib said: You hit the nail on the head with the demonization of Randall and the angelicizing of Kevin. I'm starting to get the feeling that has been the goal after season 1 when Randall was beloved. And I think the current image of both makes certain people more comfortable.

I don't think anyone here deserved that.  If the audience consisted of those "certain people"  the show wouldn't have been such a hit, and Sterling wouldn't have been the most popular actor  in television those first years.

[MissLucas]

All of the above! As someone with several siblings I'd say it's pretty normal that the parts they play in your life switch over times: One annoys the hell out of you and the other one is your close confidante and then all of a sudden they change parts - as do you in their lives. In a way the Pearsons are our tv-siblings and who you align with at which point could be quite interesting to dissect.

Right now Randall is exhausting to watch for me - not because I don't understand him, quite the contrary I get a lot of where he's coming from. The exhausting part is that he's still not willing to see how much his issues are crippling him and his interactions with the people around him. He should be smart enough to get that but intelligence is no panacea as every therapist's patient list will tell you.

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I don't think the writers are demonizing Randall at all. He still has the best intentions for everyone and he's still a loving husband, son and father even with an issue or two.  He's just more believable now that we've been shown a few weaknesses.  And wanting to protect his mother and his family is about the nicest weakness a man can have.  I also think even more Emmy's will be coming Sterling's way now that he has a more nuanced character to play.

I agree with the totality of your post but I differ slightly in that I think the writing is swinging too far in the direction of Randall being insensitive to everyone to not hit me as demonizing him;  they're writing him to be unlikable.  They are not just showing a few weaknesses, they are reversing course on him.  Their intention might be to show more of his rough edges, and smooth out Kevin's, but it's too heavy-handed for my liking.  Likewise they're putting a halo on Kevin.  However, I actually don't doubt that they will flip the script again and have Kevin backslide and Randall work hard on therapy as he has done on every single thing in his life.  Kevin has been zipping from coast to coast all season, from Bradford to LA to Pittsburgh to LA to the cabin to LA to New York, taking care of people at every stop.  Except maybe himself, and that may lead to a fall off the wagon.  The underpinnings of the problem are still there and with him it's all tied in with Jack's death, as it is for all of them.  He's got a load of guilt.  I think it will rear its ugly head, he can keep it compartmentalized a lot, but Randall just triggered him with him answering that he never thinks about what if.  Oh yes he does.

[Blakeston]

On 3/13/2020 at 11:23 AM, debraran said:

The marrying up wasn't lust, so many guys say that to each other and many say it about their wives. Usually taken as a joke but many times it's just a compliment to the other half.

I don't think Miguel meant it lustfully. But that was the second episode of the entire series, and by the end of that episode we knew almost nothing about Miguel except that 1) he married his dead best friend's wife, and 2) he believed all along that Rebecca was on some level "above" Jack.

I think it was a tactic by the writers to make us dislike Miguel, and manipulate us into believing that he'd always harbored feelings for Rebecca.