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scarynikki12

S08.E06: Reset

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There was a time in this show's life where I wouldn't have minded watching Quentin bite it a hundred times, but this was not that time. Seeing him come full circle with Oliver was nice though - that relationship means a lot to him, so...I'm glad he got his fake closure. Wish we could've done it without revisiting the whole doppelgänger daddy/daughter weirdness that was one of the worst parts of season 6, but...can't have everything I guess. 

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That was super boring. And it was lazy for Oliver to be fighting his fate "deep down" –– so deep down that there hasn't been any indication of it all season long. 

The only thing I liked (well, "liked" seems like the wrong word here) was Oliver telling his kids he was proud of them. This episode would've been so much better if the kids were more involved in it.

Better luck next week, Arrow.

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8 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Quentin spent the last year of his life being creepy about Black Siren so of course he returned to continue that behavior one last time. 

It's like...yes, I hate the way this show treats doppelgängers as interchangeable, it's gross in every way, so I know I'm not likely to think anything about it is ever good but him calling her "baby girl" repeatedly just...whew. 

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Probably a complete exaggeration, but I think more people have told Laurel she’s a hero this season in 6 episodes than people have told Oliver that in eight seasons. 

Edited by insomniadreams88
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9 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Probably a complete exaggeration, but I think more people have told Laurel she’s a hero this season in 6 episodes than people have told Oliver that in eight seasons. 

To be fair - them telling us is the only way we would know!

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I had hoped this would be a good episode, even after it became clear it was a time loop ep not a big gamechanger like I had originally hoped. LOT had one like this with a newbie Zari and it was all about her relationships with the characters and their's with each other and was NOT the last but one heading into the BIG DAMN CRISIS.

The only way this sort of ep works is if it's funny or we learn a lot about the characters. Like the aforementioned LOT or SG-1's OoO. etc Oliver has been ready to sacrifice himself since forever so very poor plot point show. Sad Quentin is forever stuck in this actual crazy thing with BS. Sigh.

Boring Bottle eps need not apply this late in the game with 2 episodes before COIE for more BS shovelcaking. Sara legit refused to accept the same sort of "redemption" in S3 of LOT. No reason BS should here except it's insta! because longer means more effort. 

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“I pull off short hair way better then you”...genuinely, what was that line? Also, the whole revenge thing. Didn’t she walk away from Diaz cause it would wreck her E1 charade?

Still got that anti chemistry between SA and KC going on. An Arrow staple.

Why didn’t they pull William in for the tech? He’s the Felicity. 

Its unfortunate they destroyed Quentin. PB was so good. 

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They really showed that it wouldnt have worked with SA and KCR as a duo. Needed more Diggle and Olicity Kids + Adopted Dyla Child. I'm gonna guess Since DR directed it that explains why Dig wasnt in it as much and maybe KM at the very least was fliming for The Crossover? And WOW we get a bottle episode AND a Mostly Boring Episode with only one episode left before the Crossover. Hope Next week is much better. 

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15 minutes ago, Chaser said:

“I pull off short hair way better then you”...genuinely, what was that line? Also, the whole revenge thing.

I was confused by that whole exchange. And then to follow that with Quentin calling her a hero? She's a hero or she's one insult away from murder. Pick a lane. 

Pretty boring episode for me, and I'd been really enjoying this season so far, even without Felicity. I'm all in for Dad!Oliver, and while it wasn't much, liked what we got here. 

Nice to see PB again, but it's a shame what they did to Quentin. He deserved better. 

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After five really good episodes, I've watched this and now I want cleanse my palate and watch something good.

Poor David Ramsey, I'm sure he tried his best as a director but this episode was a dud. Groundhog Day Is hard enough to do at the best of times (although Stargate SG1 did it very well) but the repeated plot of this one wasn't interesting.

But what really bothers me is that the lesson Oliver was supposed to learn was that it's useless to fight.  For 7 seasons he learned that you have to fight and not sacrifice yourself ("You honour the dead by fighting") but now he's supposed to learn to bow to the inevitable?  So stupid.

Paul Blackthorne, you deserved so much better.

4 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

The only thing I liked (well, "liked" seems like the wrong word here) was Oliver telling his kids he was proud of them. This episode would've been so much better if the kids were more involved in it.

And if it were about Oliver resolving things like with the kids and Quentin. But the premise of this episode was stupid and made it not just boring but also frustrating.  They had 8 episodes to do Oliver justice (sans the COIE cast of thousands and the back-door pilot) and they waste one on this mess.

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

It's like...yes, I hate the way this show treats doppelgängers as interchangeable, it's gross in every way, so I know I'm not likely to think anything about it is ever good but him calling her "baby girl" repeatedly just...whew. 

And "Baby girl" was a Donna line.  I also hated Quentin telling Oliver that he grew to trust him because his girls did.  That throws out all the OliverQuentin growth of the first 6 seasons.

One thing this episode taught me is that an Oliver-Laurel team-up hasn't got any more interesting than it was in the first four seasons even though they've figured out how to write Laurel and is super uninteresting to me. It was a huge relief when Diggle and the kids showed up on Lian Yu.

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1 minute ago, Chaser said:

Why didn’t they pull William in for the tech? He’s the Felicity. 

I got the very strong sense that this wasn't just a bottle episode, but also an episode that - thanks to the setup - could be filmed around the filming for the next three episodes. One of which - the backdoor pilot, aka How To Take Advantage of Vancouver's Taxation Incentives to Stretch Out Your Budget For Your Series Finale and, Hey, Maybe Launch A New Series While Doing That, will presumably be focusing on William, Mia and Connor. 

The Oliver and Kids scenes could all have been filmed in the same day, possibly even the same half-day, allowing Kat McNamara to film crossover stuff and all three of them to rehearse/film the backdoor pilot episode stuff, while accommodating (sorta) the issues of sharing soundstages/sets/extras with three other shows. 

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8 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Has anyone figured out the point of Dinah and Rene this season?

And less obviously Laurel. For all her airtime and hero talks, all she’s done is follow them around and snark. 

It seems like this season could have just been Oliver, Diggle, Lyla and FTA.

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I miss Legends of Tomorrow. I know the whole loop story here was different from that one, and seeing Laurel get off the track was different . . . but blah. Maybe it needed disco outfits. Or Oliver letting Quentin bite it hundreds of times while he goofs around.

Yadda, yadda, yadda, Oliver and Laurel needed to learn lessons from Monitor, etc. Whatever. I'm guessing we'll find out how he got involved with Lyla soon . . . but it still feels weird. Or I imagine it would be weird to anyone unfamiliar with canon.

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Another thing that annoys me about the entire episode being devoted to Oliver and Siren saying goodbye to Quentin is that exactly zero effort has been made to give Sara the same courtesy. She said goodbye to his corpse and visited his grave. Meanwhile her father spent the last year of his life forgetting she even existed in favor of playing Daddy* to a wannabe Big Bad with her sister's face. I get why LOT chose not to bring it up given how last season unfolded (though a line to Constantine after he learned his lesson in Legends Of To-Meow-Meow wouldn't have hurt anything) but not one character on this show has spared a thought for her. You want to try and convince me that Siren has a soul now? Have her drop a line about how Sara should get the same closure in between resets. Hell, OLIVER could have said something during the resets as he actually does have a soul AND loves Sara AND felt horribly for her when Quentin died.

This is one of those episodes that highlights how little power a tv director really has. They're often given some leeway if the producers like their ideas but they don't have nearly the same level of influence over the final product as they would directing a movie. So I don't blame Ramsay for not elevating the material since he wouldn't be given control over the script if he had any of the same issues that we did (and he may not have). It was a paint by numbers episode and there's only so much he can do with that. All that said, I thought the mechanics of his directing were well done so I hope he does continue to do it and maybe he'll soon get a project where he has more creative control than what tv typically allows.

*Phrasing deliberately chosen to drive home just how creepy he was that year.

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7 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

All that said, I thought the mechanics of his directing were well done so I hope he does continue to do it and maybe he'll soon get a project where he has more creative control than what tv typically allows.

Yeah, those transition shots of Oliver repeating days by him walking from the apartment to the Palmer Tech set were well done and the one take was impressive as well (both stylistically and even narratively. Oliver desperately holding on to Lance and trying to keep him going actually did get to me)

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It was an ok episode but these type of episodes are often hard to make super interesting. 

It was great seeing Quentin again and great getting some Quentin/Laurel scenes, they are always the best. Laurel for the most part was just all around fun tonight and it was good to see her/Oliver work together.

From the sounds of it, Lyla started this whole Harbinger thing for her family but...i"m not a big fan of that. I much rather her be the Moniters right hand for eons who finally found something more to live for.

Oliver having to fully let go of any hope that he can survive was a bit meh.

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Hated this episode and nearly fell asleep during the "dramatic" moments. Just about every show out there has done the time loop trope better. I still don't know what the point of this episode was. Too bad Quentin's return was wasted with this crap.

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27 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Another thing that annoys me about the entire episode being devoted to Oliver and Siren saying goodbye to Quentin is that exactly zero effort has been made to give Sara the same courtesy. She said goodbye to his corpse and visited his grave. Meanwhile her father spent the last year of his life forgetting she even existed in favor of playing Daddy* to a wannabe Big Bad with her sister's face. I get why LOT chose not to bring it up given how last season unfolded (though a line to Constantine after he learned his lesson in Legends Of To-Meow-Meow wouldn't have hurt anything) but not one character on this show has spared a thought for her. You want to try and convince me that Siren has a soul now? Have her drop a line about how Sara should get the same closure in between resets. Hell, OLIVER could have said something during the resets as he actually does have a soul AND loves Sara AND felt horribly for her when Quentin died.

She got in contact with Sara at the end of S6 so I'm sure she would've again had this not been some type of loop. But LoT doesn't care about Sara's pre-Legends life as much as Arrow doesnt care about Sara. 

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So, now it's time to revisit Quentin one last time.  Paul Blackthorne was great as always, but once it became obvious he was mainly there for Laurel/Black Siren's "redemption", I kind of checked out on that front.  I rather like to forget about that creepy subplot.  And, of course, it ends with her being able to "move on" after he declares her a hero during one of his many dying breaths.  This show really likes to fall into the "tell, not show" trap when it comes to redeeming Laurel.  They really should have taken advice from the writers on the redheaded stepchild of the universe, Legends of Tomorrow, which managed to actually redeem legit criminals by showing them changing and striving to be better, and not just having fan favorites show up to tell them how heroic they are (granted, the likes of Snart and Mick would have probably laughed if anyone called them heroes.)

As for Oliver, he was put through all of this to... accept that he can't change his fate?  That's it?  Kind of waste of time, there.  Maybe he isn't evil; we'll see; but The Monitor continues to be an annoying dick, even when he's off screen.

The time loop stuff was alright, but, yeah, Legends did it way, way better.

I actually thought David Ramsey did well as the director.  Enjoyed the tracking show during the shootout/fight scene (hey, still more coherent than the ones done by the beloved Bamford!), and there were some other cool shots too.  All in all, he did fine despite the weak material.

Even though I really don't care for either Dinah or Rene, I'm kind of feeling bad for Juliana Harkavy and Rick Gonzalez, for how little they are given this season.  I hope they didn't miss out on any other opportunities to remain onboard, unless both will end up on the possible spin-off.

One more episode next week and then it's Crisis time!

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37 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Oliver having to fully let go of any hope that he can survive was a bit meh.

Worse than meh.

This show stumbles the most when 1. it shows rather than tells and 2. the story is about losing hope (as the latter episodes of s3 were before the finale). Oliver offering to sacrifice himself for that manchild Barry was bad enough; now the Monitor wants him to lose all hope of surviving and getting a life with his family?  That's not going to get him to fight better or more, it's going to make him give up. THIS IS SO STUPID.

Laurel getting a chance to say goodbye to Quentin who basically saved her was good. Quentin taking off his vest and walking into a hail of bullets to prove to Oliver that everything he tries to do, every attempt to be a hero is for naught was horrible.

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What a boring and disappointing episode!

Another misleading episode description: "... Laurel (Katie Cassidy) has the opportunity to make amends with the past." The CW must have a different definition of "make amends" than its usual definition of "to compensate or make up for a wrongdoing." (Source)  Instead, the Monitor just rewarded E2 Laurel with the opportunity to say goodbye to Quentin. WTF?!  I thought it was Sara who didn't get the opportunity to say goodbye to her dying father, not (E2) Laurel. Also, now it's Quentin's turn to tell E2 Laurel that she's a hero (yeah, yeah, we got the point the first dozen times someone said it to her this season).

Based on the IMDb cast list for this episode including a character named "Vincent," I was expecting E2 Laurel to be confronted with Dinah's ex-bf and partner, Vincent Sobel, who E2 Laurel murdered, and, this time, to not kill him, save his life and/or apologize to him. (The show has been ignoring everyone else E2 Laurel murdered, like the girl in the underground parking garage and the building security guard who pleaded for his life, so I wasn't expecting anything there.) Instead, Vincent is just the name of the bomber.

The only good things about this episode: (1) great directing by DR and (2) great acting by SA and PB. (I would've included KC in this second category, except that I thought her loud crying over Quentin's body sounded incredibly fake.) 

BTW, the opening closeup of Oliver's eyes and then Oliver waking up to the sound of a sports game playing on TV reminded me of the end of Captain America: The First Avenger, when Steve first wakes up in present day.

And we still haven't seen how Diggle and Lyla end up adopting Connor. Are they saving that for the series finale? Or will it be some throwaway line explanation?

ETA: For too many seasons, we watched Oliver struggling with a self-sacrificing death wish born out of trauma and guilt over what he'd become and what he'd done in the past. At one point, Felicity even had to urge him, "Don't fight to die, fight to live." But now we're just supposed to accept that Oliver should stop fighting to live and just accept his fated death? It's almost like a character regression.

Edited by tv echo
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Well, this was a...bizarre episode. Well, bizarre in the sense that a reset/time loop episode should have been more fun than it actually was. Or maybe I was expecting a Legends-type time loop episode, where there's dozens of resets instead of, like, six. Laurel only had to watch Quentin die a total of three times. I would have rather seen her break down after watching him die dozens of times. 

Plus, it's no fun to see Oliver's lesson be about how he needs to stop fighting and let himself die. I didn't feel like the lesson was that earned, either. The whole episode was written weirdly. 

Now, I did like the stuff with Quentin. Paul Blackthorne is always a treasure and he fell right back into place, after being absent for over a season. The whole creepy Quentin stuff aside, I didn't mind Laurel's overall time loop stuff being about saying goodbye to Quentin....well, not really. Again, bizarre reward for Laurel and I didn't feel like it was earned. Plus, though I have grown to like Katie Cassidy, she can't do crying scenes in any capacity. She does much better with the snarky stuff. 

Lyla felt like she was some robot in this episode. She didn't feel like Lyla, and not just because of this betrayal. It felt like she wasn't a real person when talking to Oliver half the time. But I will say that I liked some of Oliver/Lyla's big scene. Some of it was well done.

But yeah, not a great episode overall. I guess I was expecting more out of it.

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For a successful time loop I feel like you have to go funny or suspenseful. This episode achieved neither of these. It was mostly just confusing and then boring. I feel like Oliver’s lesson was bleh since there was no build up what so ever and I don’t understand why the Monitor Laurel needed to learn anything when 

Spoiler

She isn’t even in the Crossover.

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Even in a 10 8 episode season (minus the crossover and backdoor pilot) Arrow wastes an episode on filler.
 

I hope whatever DR gets to direct next will be better written. He’s good, but he’s gotten stuck with two of the worst episodes in both seasons. 

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4 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Even in a 10 8 episode season (minus the crossover and backdoor pilot) Arrow wastes an episode on filler.

It's why I always cringe whenever anyone says "X show will better and have a tighter story because of fewer episodes!" No, a show can always have filler no matter how few episodes it has. Some shows will be better than others at handling it but it's up to the writing, not an arbitrary number of episodes.

Edited by way2interested
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So between this and The Flash this week, the theme of the week was "cosmic beings lecture heroes about how they need to stop being sad about their impending doom and get to dying" apparently, except in this one it doesent make a whole lot of sense. Poor Oliver has been jumping in front of every bullet and ever bus since season one trying to sacrifice himself, and him actually wanting to live his life after meeting his grown up kids just makes the Monitor convincing him that he needs to die all over again just makes the whole thing so depressing, as well as unnecessary. 

These Groundhog Day plots are often hard to pull off, and while some shows can handle it really well (LOT did one really well) usually focusing on comedy or character growth or exploration, this was pretty pointless, especially so close to Crisis. It bizarrely seemed to be focused on BS, and her creepy relationship with Quentin, which I so did not miss at all. Its great to see Quentin again, and let Oliver get to spend a bit more time with him (as it seems to be a theme of the season to have Oliver making peace with various people in his life and his past in general) but it all seemed to exist to have more scenes of people telling BS that she is just SUCH a hero now, instead of spending more time actually showing her doing heroic things. Yeah, such a hero, threatening to kill people right away after they bug her and making petty cracks about peoples hair like a D grade Regina George. Not at all worth a plot with a set up like this. 

Its a weird and depressing lesson too, just telling Oliver over and over that he just has to die, and that he shouldn't fight to live, but just wait for his inevitable demise. Lyla was also really weird, like she wasnt really Lyla at all, and The Monitor was just using her imagine, but I guess it was her? You would think that she would actually have some more emotions as she talked about how she has been working to save the multiverse by helping to arrange her friend and her husbands best friends death.

I missed seeing the kids, but I did love Oliver saying how proud he is of them, and dream Diggle saying that he knew that Oliver would figure it out because he has faith in him. I am not cool with Oliver being ready to die, I want him to fight! Oliver deserves a happy ending, not more misery after everything he has already been through and sacrificed! 

Edited by tennisgurl
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I rewatched while I was doing some Thanksgiving prep and I really did enjoy Quentin whenever he wasn't with Laurel, and Oliver's goodbye to the kids was nice. I found Laurel's goodbye to Quentin less cringey and more funny on rewatch, him calling her a hero and her breathlessly thanking him as he was slowly dying, like giving an Oscar acceptance speech while the person who handed it to you is bleeding out on the floor lmao.

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3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I found Laurel's goodbye to Quentin less cringey and more funny on rewatch, him calling her a hero and her breathlessly thanking him as he was slowly dying, like giving an Oscar acceptance speech while the person who handed it to you is bleeding out on the floor lmao.

That's a perfect description. When Quentin called her a hero, I was almost waiting for her to respond, "I know."

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6 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

That's a perfect description. When Quentin called her a hero, I was almost waiting for her to respond, "I know."

LOL. I really hope this is all leading to something and not just trying to cram it all in because they're planning a spinoff and don't have time to show it. Could be either one at this point.

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17 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I found Laurel's goodbye to Quentin less cringey and more funny on rewatch, him calling her a hero and her breathlessly thanking him as he was slowly dying, like giving an Oscar acceptance speech while the person who handed it to you is bleeding out on the floor lmao.

I legitimately burst out laughing when she replied thank you.. I had to pause and rewind to make sure I wasn't going to miss anything else, the same reaction I had when Mia told her not to be modest about herself back in 805.

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9 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

LOL. I really hope this is all leading to something and not just trying to cram it all in because they're planning a spinoff and don't have time to show it. Could be either one at this point.

Same, because it seems so over the top. I half-expected one of the time loops to have Lance giving a speech to the entire fake city about how much of a hero Laurel is, maybe even more than his own daughter ever was. 

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11 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I legitimately burst out laughing when she replied thank you.. I had to pause and rewind to make sure I wasn't going to miss anything else, the same reaction I had when Mia told her not to be modest about herself back in 805.

I try to be fair about it because it wasn't the real Quentin dying and she knew that it wasn't the real Quentin dying, so that's not necessarily the way it would go if it *was* the real Quentin dying. But on the other hand, everything I've seen from her so far leads me to believe that's exactly how it would go, lol.

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An Ok episode, like the return back to focus on Oliver, other long time characters and the Crisis storyline. Just the right amount of future kids and less spin off set up, in an Arrow Final season. 

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I swear, with the amount of Laurel worship going on and the ridiculous levels of whitewashing her past crimes, I half expect the Crisis to end with all of the worlds being pushed together so that everyone can declare her Queen of the Multiverse and best hero ever, Once Upon a Time style!

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4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I swear, with the amount of Laurel worship going on and the ridiculous levels of whitewashing her past crimes, I half expect the Crisis to end with all of the worlds being pushed together so that everyone can declare her Queen of the Multiverse and best hero ever, Once Upon a Time style!

A legit fear.

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Is every DCTV show going to get a "Groundhog Day" episode? If I recall correctly, we've had one in Legends, and one in Flash.

There may even have been one in Supergirl, but I'm certain of that.

Edited by Cthulhudrew

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5 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Is every DCTV show going to get a "Groundhog Day" episode? If I recall correctly, we've had one in Legends, and one in Flash.

There may even have been one in Supergirl, but I'm certain of that.

They share sets and episode names...why not episode plots? lol

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I'm not sure I'd even call this a Groundhog Day episode - after all, it wasn't actual time travel, it was just a fantasy world the Monitor created to get Laurel and Oliver to do what he wanted. In a true Goundhog Day episode, there's usually tension created by the fact that each loop could be the last one and the characters stuck with the consequences. Here, nothing at all matters, since nobody but Oliver, Laurel and Lyla were real, and even then it was only their minds that were there. ( At first I thought the Monitor might have transported everyone to an AU where Quentin is still alive, but no - that would have actually meant real stakes.)

The scene where Oliver tells his kids he is proud of them annoyed me so much - we already knew he was proud of them, it was them that needed to hear it! But no, only the fantasy versions got that privilege, and I don't think they're going to repeat that scene with actual Mia and William.

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On 11/26/2019 at 11:00 PM, Chaser said:

Has anyone figured out the point of Dinah and Rene this season?

There, fixed it for you 😀

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On 11/27/2019 at 7:15 PM, scarynikki12 said:

A legit fear.

It turns out that the Crisis is Regina is trying to drag the Arrowverse into her own universe so that she can turn all of its denizens into brainwashed Regina lovers! Run for it everyone! 

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On 11/27/2019 at 2:56 PM, statsgirl said:

But what really bothers me is that the lesson Oliver was supposed to learn was that it's useless to fight.  For 7 seasons he learned that you have to fight and not sacrifice yourself ("You honour the dead by fighting") but now he's supposed to learn to bow to the inevitable?  So stupid.

Dang and here I kind of enjoyed this episode. I wasn't bored because I found Stephen Amell and Paul Blackthorne put in such amazing performances that I guess I was distracted by them. But when you put it that way you're right - this season's final lesson negates all the other lessons learned on this show about Oliver's stoic, loner nihilism. Now I kind of hate this episode. 

On 11/28/2019 at 11:07 AM, tennisgurl said:

I swear, with the amount of Laurel worship going on and the ridiculous levels of whitewashing her past crimes, I half expect the Crisis to end with all of the worlds being pushed together so that everyone can declare her Queen of the Multiverse and best hero ever, Once Upon a Time style!

Damn I thought me making this comparison on the previous episode thread was original. Laurel is so this show's Regina.

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I think Oliver has accepted that he dies in the Crisis, but I think he believes that his death is what will save everyone else.  Perhaps, the point of this exercise was to prepare him for the idea that he has to let other people die as well.

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