Episode Discussion II: The TFGH

[Cheyanne11]

6 hours ago, Daisy said:

Nina: your SON IS A PUPPET.

Then Willow: "You're so strong, you're made of steel."

Me: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...oh, wait, you were serious?

[FilmTVGeek80]

Ugh, so many shut ups today.

Shut up, Portia. 'Sure, Sonny's a criminal, but he does such a great job protecting his family.' Yeah, right. She's giving the evil eye to Ava and Nik, but is totes okay with the criminal gangster.

Shut up, Michael. While I'm glad he and Willow had a mature conversation and she wouldn't let him fix an argument with a proposal, having to listen to him try and romanticize Sonny and Carly's dysfunction and abuse was nauseating.

Shut up, Esme. While I'm glad Ava gave her that warning, I really hope she wasn't truly buying Esme's song and dance. I find it hard to believe Ava wouldn't have her number by now. Also, yes, Ava's such a gold digger. That's why because of you and Spence's stalking crap she was willing to walk away and divorce Nikolas without asking for any compensation. Because that's what gold diggers do.

Shut up, Spencer. What a little arrogant douchenozzle. He still can't let go of what Ava did or take responsibility for his own predicament. Ava wouldn't have control of your trust fund if you hadn't stalked her. And from the last scene, it is clear he hasn't learned his lesson at all. Also, he whined to Esme about not having alone time with his dad to fix things, and yet when he had that time he did nothing but throw around attitude because he got caught and is now being punished for the first time in his life.

It pains me to say this, but shut up Alexis. While Shawn might not have served time for the exact crime he committed, he still committed a crime and he accepted a plea because he was covering up for Sonny. Also, while I guess it's commendable she wants to take responsibility for what she did, it's annoying watching her flagellate herself for something she did when she was drunk, without malicious intent. It would make some sense if she felt she deserved to go to prison for the other crimes she committed and got away with, but that's not it. Plus, we know she's not serving the entire sentence so it feels pointless. But most of all, I had to roll my eyes/grit my teeth at her "Nikolas the horrible remorseless villain" speech. While having Hayden shot was horrible, and one of the worst things Nikolas did aside from his NO SERVICE rant, she was acting like he was some born-again innocent before that. He's done horrible things before and since. She knows he used Kiki against Ava. I believe the whole reason he and Ava got to know each other in the first place was because he was fleeing PC because of some crime he committed. Listening to her talk about Nik, it was basically a carbon copy of Valentin and Anna talking about Peter.

Of course, as always, the biggest shut up goes to Carly. God, she's such a smug wench. Nina was dropping truth bombs left and right, but of course, not a single one registered for her. 

The opposite of shut up to Nik and Nina. Nik needs to open his mouth and talk to his wife about this Hayden/Alexis/Shawn situation. I don't know why he's still keeping it from her. Nina needs to continue to tell it like it is, regardless of whether Carly hears it. I love that she is remorseful with everyone else, but she has no time for Carly's hypocritical bullshit. It is going to be so sweet when the truth about Smike and Nina comes out. Sonny is such an idiot for not saying anything.

Edited October 29, 2021 by FilmTVGeek80

[ouinason]

Be real, Portia is shitty about Ava because she is jealous of her relationship with Trina, something she doesn't need to worry about with Sonny..... yet.

[Kim0820]

On 10/26/2021 at 6:36 PM, dubbel zout said:

They made a point of having Sonny bring that up, and Michael said he ran the campaign donation past his lawyers to make sure everything was legal.

Suspension of disbelief: show wants us to think that what Michael did (illegal in the real world( is legal and what Nina did (not a crime in the real world) is criminal.  They are really trolling us.  

On 10/26/2021 at 10:54 PM, Suicidy said:

It could have been done as a lawsuit.  If a plaintiff’s attorney could establish causality, it would probably be easy to establish a fairly high number on damages.  But GH writers appear to be largely ignorant and uninterested in basing courtroom storylines in anything approaching reality.

Nina merely kept a secret.  I wish they would not call that "lying."  Lying is an active and affirmative action.  I suppose the Corinthii could claim emotional distress, but the financial damages would be unrecoverable.  Profits from an illegal business.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Kim0820 said:

Nina merely kept a secret.  I wish they would not call that "lying."  Lying is an active and affirmative action. 

I disagree with that.  There are definitely lies of omission.  If I don't tell you I peed 10 minutes ago, that's not a lie.  But, if I peed on your shoes and sit idly by while you put the on, that's a lie.  I'm not arguing that what Nina did was criminal, because it wasn't.  But every time she spoke with Mike and didn't tell him she knew who he was, it was a lie.

[YaddaYadda]

The beauty of watching the show after it aired is that I can FF the Michael tongue bath and zombie Willow.

I can buy Esme genuinely loves Spencer in her own way. We know the rest is utter BS. And Ava does too, even if she's willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

I'm just miffed at Nikolas and his reaction at Spencer working at Kelly's. Your son has a job, it's a good thing, not a bad one and someone who holds a waiter job is nothing to sneeze at. I've never waitressed, but I know it's a difficult job. So let him see how hard it is to earn a penny. Maybe he'll become more responsible with a better understanding of the rest of the world lives. Maybe he'll become more grounded.

I can't believe that this is the storyline they brought Sean Blakemore for. What a waste of a good actor and good looking man. They couldn't find him a non rage blackout inducing storyline? I like how nothing registered in Alexis's mind when Nikolas reminded her that Shawn was there to murder Drew, the father of her granddaughter, and a man that she actually likes. Also, take a seat, Alexis. You made a career out of defending criminals.

No, Carly, Nina is not in your face. You got in her face, then she got in your face. Do you expect her to roll over and let you berate her? Do you expect her to break down and cry? If you come out swinging, expect that the other person will swing back, that's just how things work.

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

it's annoying watching her flagellate herself for something she did when she was drunk, without malicious intent.

It was malicious toward Franco—Dante just happened to get in the way. My JD from L&O Law School tells me that intent follows the bullet, and I presume that goes for things like needles, too. But I agree her self-flagellation is getting tiresome. Take off the hair shirt and do something useful, Alexis.

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

But every time she spoke with Mike and didn't tell him she knew who he was, it was a lie.

He told her more than once he didn't want to know about his past. I'd probably not say anything either after hearing that. Nina's mistake was not saying anything immediately. I don't blame her for telling Carly right away—also, that's really for Mike to do—but she could have said something the next day to Mike and let him decide what to do with the info.

If the Corinthii never find out Mike had no interest in knowing about his past, and in fact blamed his family for not trying harder to find him, I'll be livid. I want that to come out more than anything else.

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

If you come out swinging, expect that the other person will swing back, that's just how things work.

Typical Carly. The nerve of someone talking back!

[Cheyanne11]

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

No, Carly, Nina is not in your face. You got in her face, then she got in your face. Do you expect her to roll over and let you berate her?

Yes, that's exactly what the Town Bully expects.

[Katy M]

38 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

He told her more than once he didn't want to know about his past. I'd probably not say anything either after hearing that.

I could maybe, possibly agree with that line of reasoning, if she'd walked away and gone taken her leave (or whatever it was) somewhere else).  Getting involved in a relationship where you have pertinent information that you don't share is lying.  100%.  

But, Mike/Sonny had amnesia.  That's a medical condition.  He's not really capable of making decisions like that.  How does he know that he doesn't want to know who he is?  So, IMO, she should have either told him, told his family, or told the police.

[dubbel zout]

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

How does he know that he doesn't want to know who he is?

Because he said so on more than one occasion. He might not remember his past, but he's aware of what's happening in the present, and in the present he doesn't want to know. As stupid as this story is, I kind of like that they gave Sonny some agency here. Of course he never has to answer for how he uses it, but that's a major flaw of the show overall.

[statsgirl]

In typical soap opera fashion, ("Why didn't X just ask Y why he was there?") Nina should have said to Sonny "I know who you were before amnesia. I can tell you if you want." But he did say repeatedly that he didn't want to know because his family didn't look for him so he doesn't want them (the emotional maturity of a 3  year old). But he said it even to Jax on the last day in Nixon Falls, and emphasized it by throwing away Mike's watch.

10 hours ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

Shut up, Portia. 'Sure, Sonny's a criminal, but he does such a great job protecting his family.' Yeah, right. She's giving the evil eye to Ava and Nik, but is totes okay with the criminal gangster.

It's like Willow refused to let Julian, a former mobster, anywhere near her son in the adoption but Carly, who is married to the biggest mobster on the East Coast, is fine as a reference. Two completely different standards.

[ffwbe]

I like Alexis and that makes her scenes all the more frustrating to watch. Most of the town are murderers or attempted murderers who walked away without paying the consequences, herself included, so what makes Nikolas any different? Also, unless she’s leaving the show, she isn’t serving the full 3 year sentence so everything she said this week was just for show because I’m sure she’ll cave the next time we see her. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Because he said so on more than one occasion. He might not remember his past, but he's aware of what's happening in the present, and in the present he doesn't want to know. As stupid as this story is, I kind of like that they gave Sonny some agency here. Of course he never has to answer for how he uses it, but that's a major flaw of the show overall.

I know that he said so.  But, that doesn't answer how he would know whether or not he wanted to know.

[dubbel zout]

58 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I know that he said so.  But, that doesn't answer how he would know whether or not he wanted to know.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. I get not agreeing with his choice, but if he says he doesn't want to know—multiple times, at different points in his stay in Nixon Falls—it seems to me he knows he doesn't want to know. 

[Daisy]

39 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I know that he said so.  But, that doesn't answer how he would know whether or not he wanted to know.

Do you mind re-explaining this?

someone was arguing with me on twitter about this- but he didn't have a mental deficiency. he just didn't remember his past. He said that he felt that he wasn't a good person so maybe it was a good thing that he didn't remember who he was, and that he enjoyed where he was.

Then whenever searching for him came up, Mike said he didn't want to bother. that was his past. Then he said. well if people cared about him they'd look for him so clearly they didn't care about them so why should he bother. Then when Nina said we can only get together once you investigate your past, he was like, why does it matter. I don't care about it i put it behind me. then When Jax was flat out telling him he had a family he was like still don't care. 

the story was very clear about giving him agency and ample chances to research. If someone kept adamantly telling me they didn't want to know, I'd be okay fine. but as Nina did say - he needed to make the eeffort to do so to which he did not . That's on Sonny, not on Sonny's ability to remember/not remember. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. I get not agreeing with his choice, but if he says he doesn't want to know—multiple times, at different points in his stay in Nixon Falls—it seems to me he knows he doesn't want to know. 

It wasn't an informed decision.  He didn't know what he was saying that didn't want to know.  Plus, he had head trauma.  He didn't have the capacity to make this life altering decision of changing his identity.

[racked]

I think there is a difference in Mike saying he doesn’t want to know his past to someone he doesn’t realize knows his real identity. He might have made a different choice had he known Nina had that answer. But I also don’t care because Sonny and Carly are horrible people who are never actually held accountable for anything. And still, nothing Nina did is criminal at all. Someone above posited the idea that Sonny be criminally prosecuted for not trying to find out his own identity and the idea is and wonderful and hilarious I’m still smiling over it. 

[Daisy]

Today's Notes:

Charlotte discovering sugary cereal. lol

that's all i got

 

[statsgirl]

Speaking of HIPPA violations, Finn looking at Peter's chart when he's not one of Peter's doctors is a HIPPA violation.

So Brook Lynn has been spending a lot of time with Chase? Nice of Scarlet to "tell, don't show" us.

OMG, Shawn tried to murder Drew! The only thing false about the accusation is who he was trying to kill.  Shawn manipulating Spencer to get to Nik does not makes him a good guy, it justifies him being in prison.

Why is Anna allowed o refuse access to Valentin to NIk? Unlike her, Nik is actually Valentin's family.

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It wasn't an informed decision.  He didn't know what he was saying that didn't want to know.  Plus, he had head trauma.  He didn't have the capacity to make this life altering decision of changing his identity.

He remembers how to play poker, make his spaghetti sauce, how to disarm a man and shoot and gun, and manages his new medications on his own. He remembers everything post bridge and apparently is able to function as a barkeep and making change.

He did have a head trauma but there is no evidence of anything wrong other than his failure to remember his old life. There's a much better argument to be made that it's a voluntary amnesia because he didn't want to remember his old life than because of impairment because of an injury.

[Daisy]

3 minutes ago, racked said:

He might have made a different choice had he known Nina had that answer

Well Nina did say what would you do if someone did have the answers he need. Mike was like nah, i'm good.

[dubbel zout]

Ugh, Anna, if you'd shot Peter the first billion times you had the chance, you'd know where he was. It's really hard to feel sorry for her when she can't pull the trigger (literally and figuratively).

23 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It wasn't an informed decision.  He didn't know what he was saying that didn't want to know.  Plus, he had head trauma.  He didn't have the capacity to make this life altering decision of changing his identity.

I disagree, but thank you for the explanation.

[Daisy]

Shawn: "do the right thing, Spencer.
Shawn - how about you start telling people that you were there to kill drew on Sonny's orders and you decided to protect him. 

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

He remembers how to play poker, make his spaghetti sauce, how to disarm a man and shoot and gun, and manages his new medications on his own. He remembers everything post bridge and apparently is able to function as a barkeep and making change.

He did have a head trauma but there is no evidence of anything wrong other than his failure to remember his old life. There's a much better argument to be made that it's a voluntary amnesia because he didn't want to remember his old life than because of impairment because of an injury.

Yet as soon as he was told/remembered he raced back to PC and was upset nobody told him sooner, so there's that.  Nina could have told him in private and if he said "let's pretend I don't know," then they could go for there.  Although then they would both be lying to Carly

 

[Cheyanne11]

30 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Shawn: "do the right thing, Spencer.
Shawn - how about you start telling people that you were there to kill drew on Sonny's orders and you decided to protect him. 

This is why I have zero empathy or any kind thoughts towards this character.  He chose to work for Sonny (and it's not even that he had no other options), he chose to agree to kill someone--and Drew wasn't even the first.  It's only because he actually sucks at killing people (does the mob have performance reviews?) that he never succeeded at murder.  Now he's visiting everyone in town on his #justiceforHayden tour and imploring THEM to do the right thing.  He, just like Sonny/Carly/Jason, takes zero responsibility for how his actions landed him in prison.  In conclusion, he sucks.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yet as soon as he was told/remembered he raced back to PC and was upset nobody told him sooner, so there's that. 

The show portrayed it as the knock on the head is what caused his memory to return.  It's unprovable as to whether he would've got his memory back if someone had just said "hey, idiot, you're Sonny Corinthos."

Edited October 29, 2021 by Cheyanne11

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, Cheyanne11 said:

The show portrayed it as the knock on the head is what caused his memory to return.  It's unprovable as to whether he would've got his memory back if someone had just said "hey, idiot, you're Sonny Corinthos."

Exactly.  It's unprovable as to what he would have done if Nina had told him.  Which proves my point that he should have been told so he could make at least a semi-informed decision instead of a completely ignorantly informed decision.

[dubbel zout]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

So Brook Lynn has been spending a lot of time with Chase? Nice of Scarlet to "tell, don't show" us.

We saw them having drinks recently. But we don't see them enough. Jasus forbid they take time away from the show's most electrifying couple, Michael and Willow.

I guess Shawn never heard that two wrongs don't make a right.

[Cheyanne11]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Exactly.  It's unprovable as to what he would have done if Nina had told him. 

Actually, I said it's unprovable that he would've gotten his memory back.

[Katy M]

Just now, Cheyanne11 said:

Actually, I said it's unprovable that he would've gotten his memory back.

True, but it's also unprovable what he would do whether or not the truth brought his memories back.

 

[absnow54]

21 minutes ago, Cheyanne11 said:

The show portrayed it as the knock on the head is what caused his memory to return.  It's unprovable as to whether he would've got his memory back if someone had just said "hey, idiot, you're Sonny Corinthos."

Which Jax was a breath away from doing, verbatim. 

[Pingaponga]

I've been watching this stupid show for well over half my life, so I know who everyone is talking about.

But I have to say, every time someone brings up Who-Shot-Hayden-Barnes I'm imagining new viewers yelling "Who the heck is Hayden Barnes and why do I care who shot her?  Is she even dead?"

Sigh...

[sacrebleu]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

OMG, Shawn tried to murder Drew! The only thing false about the accusation is who he was trying to kill.  Shawn manipulating Spencer to get to Nik does not makes him a good guy, it justifies him being in prison.

I mean, in the show's logic, Austin is a horrible, untrustworthy person for manipulating an upset Chase into doing his dirty work. But if Shawn manipulates a troubled teen into doing the same it's.... fine? 

[Blackie]

32 minutes ago, Pingaponga said:

Is she even dead?"

 

Is she? I just asked my self this today. (and this is a serious question from another viewer who has watched over half my life!!)

Edited October 29, 2021 by Blackie
eta, clarity

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Yet as soon as he was told/remembered he raced back to PC and was upset nobody told him sooner, so there's that.  Nina could have told him in private and if he said "let's pretend I don't know," then they could go for there.

Once it was in his conscious and he was aware of who he really is, the jig was up.

It is absurd to treat a soap opera story as if it were real life. But for fun, in real life brain injuries are never as localized as Sonny's was so that the only thing that's different is that he couldn't remember who he was. (That's why they stopped making brain lesions in monkeys to find out what the damage is, because it's never localized to such a small area as the lesion. That and that monkeys became too expensive to use for the experiments.)

So the only way that Sonny would forget who he is but nothing else and have no other impairments is that he unconsciously didn't want to remember who he is.

[Cheyanne11]

2 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

I mean, in the show's logic, Austin is a horrible, untrustworthy person for manipulating an upset Chase into doing his dirty work. But if Shawn manipulates a troubled teen into doing the same it's.... fine? 

Well, yes, because "unfair sentencing!" "JusticeForHayden," "clearing my name."

Bite me, Shawn.

And, great, on Monday Spinelli gets involved.  I mean I guess put all my most hated characters in scenes together for easier ignoring, but again, will no one in Hollywood give BA a gig so he can hang up a role that gets stupider with each passing year?

[One Tough Cookie]

 

 

 

even with tubes coming out of every orifice Valentin is still the HOTTEST guy on the show!

 

[Suicidy]

On 10/27/2021 at 5:59 PM, absnow54 said:

Why is the Greece storyline not the A-story right now? I feel like it’s only featured once a week, if that. 

An ever shrinking production budget?

[Suicidy]

On 10/27/2021 at 8:39 PM, statsgirl said:

Not genetically related though because Sonny isn't his biological father.. Nor were they raised together.

Still, I wouldn't wish him on Molly.

It would be a huge downgrade from TJ.

[Suicidy]

On 10/28/2021 at 9:48 AM, KittyQ said:

Interesting... is there a possibility that Sonny could be nabbed for tax evasion if he was paid under the table, or would the amount that he earned be too small for the IRS to be concerned about?

Give how stupid the Nina identity theft SL is, maybe they will do this next year after Moody files 2021 taxes. 

[YaddaYadda]

18 hours ago, Cheyanne11 said:

Bite me, Shawn.

Double bite me. It's not like Nikolas doesn't deserve to get the book thrown at him, but if I hear one more time all about how Shawn was innocent when he was anything but, I will start asking the writers to pay to listen to this drivel. 

Also, why are you involving Spencer? Why is he using him like that? Does Shawn think that Spencer will be able to live with himself if he sends his father to jail?

[Daisy]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Double bite me. It's not like Nikolas doesn't deserve to get the book thrown at him, but if I hear one more time all about how Shawn was innocent when he was anything but, I will start asking the writers to pay to listen to this drivel. 

Also, why are you involving Spencer? Why is he using him like that? Does Shawn think that Spencer will be able to live with himself if he sends his father to jail?

and the moment Shawn saw Spencer's face, he should have been like. you know, i'm wrong sorry. Spencer looked devastated. even if Shawn was actually innocent of all crimes, he's a butt for bringing in a kid to try to manipulate his father who anyone can see just wants to be close to him. 

[YaddaYadda]

16 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Spencer looked devastated.

A+ acting from the Spencer actor. He, Esme actress and Trina are by far the strongest actors from the young adult set. 

[Daisy]

3 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

A+ acting from the Spencer actor. He, Esme actress and Trina are by far the strongest actors from the young adult set. 

yeah. he was shaky his first few days, but he is knocking it out of the park. and as someone pointed out- i don't know if he researched old Spencer's mannerisms but he does some of them, so it's like "yeah it might be a re-cast but this is spencer" it's very well done

[Pingaponga]

23 hours ago, Blackie said:

Is she? I just asked my self this today. (and this is a serious question from another viewer who has watched over half my life!!)

Good point. Hayden was alive when she was last onscreen, and no one was trying to kill her then.

[One Tough Cookie]

So, enlighten me, please. Joss tells Spencer there is no shame in honest work.  So where doe Joss work?

Edited October 30, 2021 by One Tough Cookie

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

So, enlighten me, please. Joss tells Spencer there is no shame in honest work.  So where doe Joss work?

She never worked a day in her life unless we take into consideration her summer "job" as camp counsellor. 

But we're supposed to believe that Joss was raised well by her mother and that she is very grounded.

[Ambrosefolly]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

She never worked a day in her life unless we take into consideration her summer "job" as camp counsellor. 

But we're supposed to believe that Joss was raised well by her mother and that she is very grounded.

 She is being quite judgmental for someone who's mother locked her nephew's mother on a freezing balcony and kidnapped a bedridden old woman. 

And those are the crimes she did in the last 5 years. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[statsgirl]

6 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Also, why are you involving Spencer? Why is he using him like that? Does Shawn think that Spencer will be able to live with himself if he sends his father to jail?

The characters voice that we should be angry that he spent all the time in jail but Shawn's actions make him look more sinning than sinnned against.

It is so stupid to go to Spencer, as well as risking hurting him. Nik is not going to break down and say that he tried get Hayden killed. And how is Shawn going to prove that it was Nik? Short of a confession <eyeroll> there is no evidence at this point.

[ouinason]

Messing with Spencer is also going to put a big ass target on Shawn's back.  Sonny is only loyal to his family, and if Shawn gets Spencer involved and fucks him over, Nik and Sonny will murder his ass.  

[ciarra]

5 hours ago, Pingaponga said:

Good point. Hayden was alive when she was last onscreen, and no one was trying to kill her then.

From Soaps in Depth.

Hayden returned to Port Charles to attend Liz and Franco’s wedding reception and with a mysterious connection to Jasper Jacks. It turned out that they were working together to find the codicil to Helena’s will that would strip Valentin of his Cassadine fortune, and then it was later revealed that they were working with Nikolas, who wasn’t really dead after all! The other big reveal was when Hayden admitted that the little girl in the hospital who was Finn’s new patient was actually their daughter, Violet!

Finn was stunned to learn she hadn’t lost the baby and that he had a child, and as they were discussing co-parenting, Anna returned and tried to make sense of everything. Meanwhile, Valentin offered Hayden a fortune for the truth about what they were plotting against him and followed up the bribe with physical threats. Nikolas claimed to want to help Hayden get away before she was hurt and even paid a guy to assault her on the docks to put a real scare into her. Terrified for the safety of her daughter, Hayden said goodbye to Violet and left her with Finn and Anna before disappearing again!

[30 Helens]

10 hours ago, Suicidy said:

On 10/27/2021 at 7:59 PM, absnow54 said:

Why is the Greece storyline not the A-story right now? I feel like it’s only featured once a week, if that. 

An ever shrinking production budget?

 

Or because Sonny’s not in it?

Edited October 31, 2021 by 30 Helens