S04.E07: The Dinner and the Date

[saber5055]

11 hours ago, TheLotusFlower said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the name Malik.  Its Arabic translation means "king or ruler," and it is not an uncommon name for African American boys.

I didn't say it wasn't a proper or good name for ANY boy, and not just an African American boy. It would be Japanese boy's name too, or a Native American. I just said it reminded ME of the demon on Sleepy Hollow, nothing more, and I never said it was "wrong." Of course, as always, YMV.

I thought Beth (and Randall?) gave the baby the side eye when Malik carried her in, like she wasn't expected. Just my take on it. It sort of reinforced the story line that they are not happy Malik has a child. If Malik hadn't been involved with Deja, I'd expect everyone to gather around the baby and make over how cute she is. Instead, she was ignored.

Darnell taking his shirt off to display his tats surprised me since I didn't see any tats peeking out and I didn't see Randall trying to see them. Since everyone has tats these days, I don't see them as any big thing. Back in "the day," only Navy guys got tattoos (I know, I know, that's a cliché) but now even girls have sleeves and it's no big deal.

I was good with the visiting family saying grace and thought that was nice. While many families don't regularly do that, it is still done at (some) family gatherings, makes it sort of a more special event. The show, however, seemed to want us to think one family is do gooders, the other is full of pagans. There had to be a TON of leftovers from all those dinners. And people say family Thanksgivings are bad!

When Beth right away offered Malik's parent wine as soon as they came in and they declined, she turned into a cr*p host by not offering them a soft drink, fruit juice, water. With three kids, there had to be some alternative drink besides wine. How about a cup of coffee then. And maybe the scene where Malik's mom gave Beth the pie she brought was cut since I don't remember her getting a thanks. (Or I dozed off.)

I also think Deja looks older than Malik, but that fits with how kids grow, so many boys are still dorky qawky kids when girls the same age look like beautiful adults. I don't find him good looking, but I like that this show portrays him as an average-looking kid who can get a girlfriend by being a good kid, not just jock handsome. Although I don't believe him when he says he has "no game." Every boy/man has "game."

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, Janie430 said:

I think we've seen since the first season that Rebecca was never willing to go out of her way for Kevin, and really the only time she has was taking him in after he came back from rehab.                                                                                                                                                                     The thing that struck me earlier was that Rebecca had never seen a taping of the Manny, even though Kevin had asked her to.  She has a son who is a star in a longish sitcom, and not once had she gone out there to see it.   And even when she does make it, it's more important to see Kate's first gig to which she was not invited, than Kevin's last recording, to which she was.

To me, what is says is that, as much as Rebecca loves Kevin, she's not really going to prioritize him over her troubled/improving relationship with Kate, and her seemingly perfect but actually troubled relationship with Randall (she lied to him every day for 36 years).  Until after rehab when Kevin called her on it, she was not going to go out of her way or stretch herself for him.  

And now we know that Jack was essentially the same, which we knew, but we have more confirmation of.  He sacrificed daily to make sure that Randall went to the best school, he kept taking Randall to the golf club where he was uncomfortable, he made time to try and give Randall the extra stuff he needed.  And with Kate, he was trying all the time to be her hero and emotional support (which I think he did because she reminded him of his mom) and indulgent.  With Kevin, he blew off making models because he was too busy, and he didn't make it a point to take Kevin to the golf range with him and Randall.  

Rebecca and Jack made a point to go to Kevin's games, but that was always probably a family activity as well, because how into football they all were.  I don't think Rebecca or Jack ever really spent one on one time with Kevin, to ever thought they should, and that makes me very sad for Kevin.

Thank you for this post.  I was also thinking about this last night.  I understand why Kevin and Kate would be deeply hurt by Rebecca and her actions.  The idea that Rebecca never visited her children in California and always required them to travel to the east coast for holidays has never sat well with me.  I have not had the best relationship with my mother over the years, but when i lived in a different state she and my dad visited at least once a year.  Rebecca's excuses always read very thin to me.  Especially when you realize that she was willing to move to be closer to Randall.  The Pearson family dynamic has always favored Randall.  I did cheer last season when Rebecca let Randall know that she and Miguel were moving to California.  He was such an ass when he assumed Rebecca would move on down to Philly to take care of his kids.  

[luckylou]

26 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Jennifer is the baby's mother.  

There are plenty of reasons her family could not or would not take custody of the baby, but but we are talking about This Is Us, so it is probably a very dramatic scenario.

Several posters have speculated that Jennifer died giving birth.

My theory is that she is white and her parents did not want to raise a biracial granddaughter.  This could open the doors to all kinds of comparisons to Jack and Rebecca adopting Randall.  It just seems like a path the writers would consider- a twist and another chance to showcase St Jack.

One thing that supports your theory is that the show is pretty good about choice of names, and Jennifer is not a particularly popular name among African Americans.  I am trying to remember if I ever had an African American student named Jennifer.  I find myself confused often about the time period of the show, but Jennifer is not all that common,  at least around here, with the white cohort currently in high school, either.

[ams1001]

3 hours ago, smartymarty said:

Didn't have a problem with Malik's mother asking to say grace since it's important to her family -- Beth and Randall's family could sit quietly by --  but of course what she said was indefensible.

If you are a guest in someone's home, especially if you don't know your hosts well (or at all), insisting on saying grace when they haven't is rather presumptuous to say the least. Even assuming they were church-going people, which based on Randall's actions during the campaign isn't something I would fault them for, not everyone says grace at dinner. My family went to church most weeks when I was a kid and we never said grace at meals. (Though I'm not religious, now.) If you've invited me to your home, fine, go ahead, if that's a thing you normally do, and I will sit quietly until you're done. But don't come to my house and try to guilt/coerce me into participating in your religious practices. Especially when you are a near-stranger.  A close friend/family member, I'd probably let them go ahead if they were sincerely doing it just because it was important to them. But she seemed to be doing it to make  a passive-aggressive point, not because she just couldn't have one meal out without saying grace.

56 minutes ago, luckylou said:

In an earlier episode, didn’t we see him approaching a drug dealer about selling drugs to earn money?  That scenario really does not fit with this character as depicted.  
...
The whole show is based on what I consider an utter impossibility...that the Pearson’s could have just taken Randall home from the hospital without any buy-in from social services,  but I expect this was discussed as nauseum in previous seasons.

Well, they didn't actually specify what he was talking about. Definitely something shady, though. Drugs is probably the most likely, but we're making assumptions, there. 

There have been some flashback scenes to them going through the adoption process with Randall (I think he was a toddler when it was finalized?), so there had to have been some legal behind-the-scenes at the hospital that they didn't show us. I guess because that wasn't the point of the story.

25 minutes ago, Janie430 said:

The thing that struck me earlier was that Rebecca had never seen a taping of the Manny, even though Kevin had asked her to.  She has a son who is a star in a longish sitcom, and not once had she gone out there to see it.   And even when she does make it, it's more important to see Kate's first gig to which she was not invited, than Kevin's last recording, to which she was.

I hated that whole scene. Everyone was so rude to Kevin and made the whole day all about themselves. 

[3 is enough]

5 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Beth and Randall have no control over it.  They think they do, but they don't.  Unless Randall or Beth quit their job and and hover over Deja 24/7.  Deja can do whatever she wants with Malik when no one is around to stop it.

Very true.  I think Beth realizes that , since she said trying to keep them apart would just make Deja want Malik more.  (or something to that effect)

[Eeksquire]

Quote

I thought it rude (not that it was the only rude thing) that no one asked the baby's name, nor was she acknowledged, when Malik carried her into the Pearson home.

Quote

I thought Beth (and Randall?) gave the baby the side eye when Malik carried her in, like she wasn't expected. Just my take on it. It sort of reinforced the story line that they are not happy Malik has a child. If Malik hadn't been involved with Deja, I'd expect everyone to gather around the baby and make over how cute she is. Instead, she was ignored.

Well, when Randall and Beth opened the door and started to say "Welcome", Malik's mom immediately shushed them with "The baby's sleeping" in a harsh tone.  With that as the first utterance of the interaction, I don't know what else the Pearsons could have done - they were basically told to shut up in their own house before Malik's family was even over the threshold.  

[t7686]

1 hour ago, Janie430 said:

I think we've seen since the first season that Rebecca was never willing to go out of her way for Kevin, and really the only time she has was taking him in after he came back from rehab.                                                                                                                                                                     The thing that struck me earlier was that Rebecca had never seen a taping of the Manny, even though Kevin had asked her to.  She has a son who is a star in a longish sitcom, and not once had she gone out there to see it.   And even when she does make it, it's more important to see Kate's first gig to which she was not invited, than Kevin's last recording, to which she was.

To me, what is says is that, as much as Rebecca loves Kevin, she's not really going to prioritize him over her troubled/improving relationship with Kate, and her seemingly perfect but actually troubled relationship with Randall (she lied to him every day for 36 years).  Until after rehab when Kevin called her on it, she was not going to go out of her way or stretch herself for him.  

And now we know that Jack was essentially the same, which we knew, but we have more confirmation of.  He sacrificed daily to make sure that Randall went to the best school, he kept taking Randall to the golf club where he was uncomfortable, he made time to try and give Randall the extra stuff he needed.  And with Kate, he was trying all the time to be her hero and emotional support (which I think he did because she reminded him of his mom) and indulgent.  With Kevin, he blew off making models because he was too busy, and he didn't make it a point to take Kevin to the golf range with him and Randall.  

Rebecca and Jack made a point to go to Kevin's games, but that was always probably a family activity as well, because how into football they all were.  I don't think Rebecca or Jack ever really spent one on one time with Kevin, to ever thought they should, and that makes me very sad for Kevin.

Agreed. Not that it makes it right, but I think it's because Kevin was such a... snarky kid. Rebecca says as much at the rehab session. It's sad that the only real bonding moment was I think that episode where they both fall asleep on the floor but neither realize it? I hope we get some sort of acknowledgement of their issues later on. I also hope (as a side note) the other siblings take more of an interest in Uncle Nicky.

[saber5055]

18 minutes ago, Eeksquire said:

Well, when Randall and Beth opened the door and started to say "Welcome", Malik's mom immediately shushed them with "The baby's sleeping" in a harsh tone.  With that as the first utterance of the interaction, I don't know what else the Pearsons could have done - they were basically told to shut up in their own house before Malik's family was even over the threshold.  

Now that you've posted that, I do remember that scene. Thanks for the reminder. So yeah, nothing like getting off to a great start meeting a new family (and maybe future inlaws) ... NOT! Yeah, that whole episode was AWK-ward. I don't drink, but I might have hit Beth's hidden bottle if I'd been at any of those dinners. I did guess exactly when the baby was going to start crying though. Heh.

[Crs97]

On 11/6/2019 at 12:54 PM, kili said:

They will help out, but he must do the heavy lifting (e.g. it was him that had to leap to his feet when Janelle started crying and it's an exception that they babysit for him).

Unfortunately, that was undercut by his mom telling him that she was probably hungry and where are the bottle was that she had prepared.

I liked Darnell and the fact that he quickly said skipping school was his son’s idea, but I thought his “I’ll take off my shirt and tell you not to judge me for my mistakes” speech was completely undermined by his wife judging Deja for her mother’s actions.  I really wish Beth had brought that to his attention.

[Crs97]

On 11/7/2019 at 9:31 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

There was no need for Rebecca in her apology to Mr. Lawrence and his wife to drop Kevin's name.  Why tell them that Kevin is the "slob" and Randall is the neat one?

I thought Randall said that, not Rebecca.  Actually, she got mad when Randall then made a joke to Mr. Lawrence about Kevin not being as smart as them.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, t7686 said:

Agreed. Not that it makes it right, but I think it's because Kevin was such a... snarky kid. Rebecca says as much at the rehab session. It's sad that the only real bonding moment was I think that episode where they both fall asleep on the floor but neither realize it? I hope we get some sort of acknowledgement of their issues later on. I also hope (as a side note) the other siblings take more of an interest in Uncle Nicky.

Yes I agree with you. Parents are people too, and I think on a pure personality level, Rebecca “gelled” more with Randall than Kevin, add in the “mother’s guilt” she had about Randall growing up as a black child in a white family I completely understand how Kevin suffered as “the normal one”- the squeaky wheel gets the oil and all that. But I said this once in therapy “just because I don’t squeak doesn’t mean I’m not a wheel”.
 

I have my own issues being the “normal one”,(my sibling has a severe mental disability- I call her my tall toddler) but not feeling I was ignored (I was never) but wanting to be the very best non disruptive helpful daughter ever to not make more work for my loved ones.  We talk about his show a lot in my support group for adult siblings of people with disabilities and there are a lot of “Kevin” types- it was their discussion of him that made me understand him better. However personality wise I “gelled” with my caregivers the way Randall did with Rebecca AND there were no other typical siblings to compare my self to. 
 

Issues addressed in this show are very real. 

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, Janie430 said:

Rebecca and Jack made a point to go to Kevin's games, but that was always probably a family activity as well, because how into football they all were.  I don't think Rebecca or Jack ever really spent one on one time with Kevin, to ever thought they should, and that makes me very sad for Kevin.

Rebecca took him to get a baseball player's autograph, maybe it was after Jack said he couldn't, don't quite remember. That might have been around the time he went to see Nicky at his trailer.  Whatever it was, one of them was going to be doing something alone with Kevin. One-on-one time becomes more difficult the more kids you have, and keeping score about it may fall by the wayside.  It's clear Randall was the favored child, everyone in the family knows it.  Rebecca has tried to do better since the therapy, not just housing him after, but looking after what he's been up to career-wise, getting a show business newspaper subscription.  She can't make up for the lost childhood years, but she's attentive now.  I credit her for that.  I think Kevin may, too.  It seems like she ends up living with him at end of life, so that's significant -- Randall might have been the one I expected for that.

Edited November 8, 2019 by ShadowFacts

[Marley]

Ugh who the fuck cares about Malik and Déjà.

I didn’t mind the past scenes. Kid Kevin was cracking me up.

Kind of wonder what happened to the teacher in the future tho.

Loved Beth this episode.

[Ohiopirate02]

21 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Rebecca took him to get a baseball player's autograph, maybe it was after Jack said he couldn't, don't quite remember. That might have been around the time he went to see Nicky at his trailer.  Whatever it was, one of them was going to be doing something alone with Kevin. One-on-one time becomes more difficult the more kids you have, and keeping score about it may fall by the wayside.  It's clear Randall was the favored child, everyone in the family knows it.  Rebecca has tried to do better since the therapy, not just housing him after, but looking after what he's been up to career-wise, getting a show business newspaper subscription.  She can't make up for the lost childhood years, but she's attentive now.  I credit her for that.  I think Kevin may, too.  It seems like she ends up living with him at end of life, so that's significant -- Randall might have been the one I expected for that.

Yes, Rebecca did make changes after Kevin's family therapy session.  I do believe that she honestly did not know about Kevin's past hurts because he hid them so well.  Once she was made aware of them, she did decide to do better.  Which is very human, and also all Kevin can really ask for.  I don't think she is a bad mom by any stretch, but even the best of mothers make mistakes.  She and Jack did neglect some of Kevin's emotional needs, but they did not do so maliciously.  

Rebecca reading up on movie making reminds me of my mother's attempts at connect with me.  I was the Kevin of my family and while it sucked as a child and young adult, I have since made peace with it.  My mother has seen some of the errors she committed back then, and does try to make it up.  Some of these efforts do make me chuckle, but i greatly appreciate the effort.  

[ams1001]

5 minutes ago, Marley said:

Kind of wonder what happened to the teacher in the future tho.

I won't be the least bit surprised if we see him again.

[kili]

Quote

Rebecca took him to get a baseball player's autograph, maybe it was after Jack said he couldn't, don't quite remember.

Jack had just returned from visiting his brother for the last time. He was supposed to take Kevin, but said he needed a day, so Rebecca took him. Rebecca spent much of the day trying to convince Kevin to leave the line, but he was adamant even missing lunch.

When Rebecca returned from lunch, Kevin was the last to get an autograph and he was chatting with the player. Rebecca asked the player what they were discussing and he told her that Kevin had looked up information to help him feel more at home if he got transferred.  The player called him a special kid. Rebecca was quite surprised.

Kevin is a snarky kid because he's learned that is the only way he can get attention. Kids who can't get positive attention by being good often end up acting out because negative attention is better than none.  A classic example of this is when Kevin returns from football camp. He's been away with lots of interesting stories to tell, but neither Rebecca nor Jack have any interest in hearing them or interacting with Kevin despite him just returning from a multi-overnight trip. Rebecca is focused on Randall's glasses/reading while Jack is focused on Kate's eating. At first, Kevin thinks he is getting some attention, but it quickly becomes obvious that Jack was only throwing the football with him to get Kate to exercise. She takes off with Jack in pursuit. It is then that Kevin throws the football at Randall and gets some negative attention from Rebecca.

That's one of the reasons the loss of football is so devastating to Kevin. He not only loses his future, he loses the one thing his family likes about him. His one aspect that gets positive attention.

Even in this episode, we see Randall diss his brother. He points out his brother is messy and his teacher gives Kevin a positive spin by suggesting that many geniuses are messy. Randall spikes that suggestion by saying that isn't true in this case strongly implying his brother is stupid. His parents tell him not to do that, but don't defend Kevin. Basically, they are telling Randall not to call Kevin stupid because it's not nice, not because it's not true. They also don't counter with a fun fact about Kevin that would show him in a positive light. This couple is about to meet Kevin and all he's been told by Kevin's family is negative things about him.  Mr. Lawrence did the correct thing in trying to find something positive about Kevin to counteract the negative. His own parents didn't bother with that social nicety. Kevin missed most of that, but he doesn't always. How often do they say something nice about him? Other than football.

I know he is a prickly kid, but he's not evil. Catch him doing good things and toss him a compliment or two. And do some one-on-one things with him since you devote a great deal of time to the other two.

[Crs97]

37 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

his wife judging Deja for her mother’s actions.  I really wish Beth had brought that to his attention.

If Beth had said anything about that, that would have just escalated issues at a dinner that was already out of control.  The best thing that could happen is to end the dinner and for all of them to cool down and take a step back.  Maybe in a few days have Randall and Malik's dad sit down and talk.

Maybe it would have escalated things, or maybe it would have been the wake up call she needed.  She was all smug after her husband’s speech.  I wanted Beth to say something like, “You're right.  We should be taking the time to look at the whole person and not just their mistakes.  And, Kelly (or whatever her name was), Deja deserves the same courtesy, especially since the mistakes of her childhood weren’t made by her.” If that escalated things, then Deja needs to be out of Malik’s parents’ orbit completely.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Crs97

[saber5055]

29 minutes ago, kili said:

Rebecca spent much of the day trying to convince Kevin to leave the line, but he was adamant even missing lunch.

Yes. Rebecca and Kevin were in line when she said let's go get lunch and Kevin said they'd lose their place in line. So he stayed and Perfect Mother Rebecca bailed to go to the food court because she would absolutely DIE if she postponed eating some mall burger or pizza slice for a half hour. It obviously would have killed her to stay with her son while he met his idol, then have lunch with him afterward. As far as I know Rebecca isn't diabetic and has to eat at a certain time. She could have packed a couple of granola bars in her purse if that were the case.

I remember that episode because it showed not even his mom cared jack about Kevin. I imagine he had to make his own peanut-butter sandwich lunch after they got home.

[saber5055]

Does anyone from the Philly area know if that festival where teacher's wife bought the earrings is a real thing?

[sasha206]

On 11/5/2019 at 11:25 PM, Blakeston said:

When Deja confronted Malik about her misgivings when he reached for her hand, it took me out of the episode completely. What kind of 14-year-old talks like that to a boy who gives her "butterflies?"

I get that Deja had to grow up fast, and I can see her having those feelings. But revealing her vulnerabilities in such a perfectly articulated way, to the boy she likes, at the moment she becomes overwhelmed?

The writers are lucky that Lyric Ross is such a terrific actress, because some of the dialogue they give her can't be easy to pull off.

YES!  My biggest pet peeve is when a tv show/movie has writers writing lines for teens that would never be uttered in real life.  

That said, I like the actors that play Deja and Malik.  Both are quite talented.  

[JKL845]

I agree with what everyone is saying about Kevin. Kevin is popular, he fits in. He is funny, charming and connects with his peers. His parents don't seem to see Kevin as needing them like Kate and Randall do. He seems to be doing well so they focus more on the other two. But of course he needs them just as much. 

[3 is enough]

4 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Does anyone from the Philly area know if that festival where teacher's wife bought the earrings is a real thing?

It would have been Pittsburgh, not Philly.  

[debraran]

9 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

It would have been Pittsburgh, not Philly.  

Something like this, there were probably more than one in the area.

https://www.visitphilly.com/things-to-do/events/odunde-festival/

https://www.wesa.fm/post/venerable-black-arts-festival-seeks-empower-community#stream/0

[Tosia]

On 11/6/2019 at 8:32 AM, qtpye said:

I am a woman of color and the first seasons I was very uncomfortable with the way  young Kevin treated young Randall....it almost felt racist.

Now, I see that Jack was so obsessed with Randall that he almost brushed Kevin aside. Of course this was not Randall's fault, but a kid does not think like that.

I think Jack's and Rebecca's focus on Randall have to do with the following things:

1. The two biological twins being really close and maybe unknowingly leaving out Randall.

2. Understanding Randall will have bigger hurdles in life because of his skin color.

However, I think the most important factor with the Jack/Randall/Kevin relationship is Jack's own securities.

Because Jack did not grow up with a lot of money and his father is an alcoholic, he feels like he knows what it is like to be "less than". However, he knows that he still gets privilege as a white man that Randall will never be privy to.

Also, because of the said insecurities Jack desperately needs people to "need him". Kevin's golden boy status is something Jack can not relate to and it also makes Jack identify Kevin as someone that "does not need" Jack.

Jack has always been insecure that if he allows Rebecca to pursue her dreams, she will realize she is too good for him and move on to something better. He has been trained that a guy of his background does not deserve a country club girl like her, which was confirmed by his and her father.

I can not help but think that he enabled Kate's overeating, because that would make her "need him more". "It does not matter what the world thinks, Kate, because Daddy will always love and protect you". He wanted her to be a bit emotionally dependent on him, so that he is always "needed". 

The irony is that I think this would not change even if the family had not adopted Randall. Jack sees Kevin as someone so amazingly blessed in looks and charisma, that he would be very likely not to take his problems too seriously and just tell him to "man up".  Of course, Kevin would lash out at this by acting like a brat.

The problem is that Kevin takes his anger and frustration out on Randall but the real issue is Jack.

Beautifully insightful. 

My mother favored my older brother who was  firstborn, over me and my two younger sisters. 

We asked her why several times because it was so obvious and she said it was because he needed it more. 

He was probably ADHD, or just headstrong because he didn't follow the rules, and talked back when questioned. . My father was frustrated by him and disciplined--yelled at and hit him more than us girls --and my mother enabled, spoiled and defended my brother. 

Yes, I think she needed him more too

Love Kevin of all ages. I can see Kate being the lost . middle child trying to get attention.  

On 11/7/2019 at 10:08 PM, Driad said:

Deja & Malik's day out reminded me of a 14-year-old several years ago in Boston who skipped school to spend a day with her boyfriend. She was afraid her mother would find out and be angry, so she texted her mother saying she had been kidnapped. Her mother called the police, who put all hands (including calling in off-duty officers) to search for her. The phrase "grounded until you graduate from high school" springs to mind. Anyway D & M's day out could have been worse.

Or it cd have been Ferris Bueller's Day Out. 

Just fun. I'm glad Deja went with Malik. 

[Ohmo]

Quote

Teenagers everywhere are having sex at a young age. Nothing new here. 

This episode dealt with judgment (as another poster in this thread pointed out), but there are differences in judgment, and sometimes judgment is necessary.  Passing judgment should not always be seen as a negative.  Judging Malik is not the same as judging Deja. 

Sure, teenagers do have sex and some of them do have children, but there are many that do not.  I think it's wonderful that Malik is caring for Janelle, but for his mouthy mother to think that no one is going to sit in judgment of her son is just unreal.  There's a difference between judging who someone is (as his mother tried to do with Deja) versus judging an action that a person has done (Malik).  Malik opened himself up to judgment due to his behavior.  Unlike Randall and Beth, the audience also knows that Malik has considered selling drugs.  Also not a stellar choice.

As has been mentioned, Deja has had no control over the circumstances of her life thus far.  She did not choose to be born, have a mother who was a drug addict, have her grandmother die, or decide to be homeless.  Malik chose to have sex which led to the creation of a child.  The reality is that he made a poor choice at this point in his life.  He's stepping up and caring for his daughter, and he should be commended for that, but I also have no problem with sitting in judgment of his choice, and I don't fault Randall and Beth for doing the same thing.

In the effort to be supportive as a society, I sometimes think that we have equalized all choice.  About any issue---large and small---so that the choice itself does not matter.  However, there are choices that have positive outcomes and choices that have negative outcomes.  Judging Randall and Beth for judging Malik is just odd to me since Deja is 14 years old.  It's a no-brainer that that's what they should be doing.

[Ohmo]

22 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I understand why Kevin and Kate would be deeply hurt by Rebecca and her actions. 

I see your point and don't disagree, but I've wondered if the dynamic between Rebecca, Kevin, and Kate also has to do with the loss of Kyle?  Kevin and Kate are 2/3 of the "biological" Big 3.  They weren't supposed to be just twins.  Maybe getting close to the children that she gave birth to brings Rebecca too close to the death of a child (that happened at the same time.)  I think that's why we see Rebecca having to work to connect to Kevin and Kate and why it appears to be so difficult for her.   I think her relationship with Randall is easier because he's outside of the whole dynamic of Rebecca giving birth to her children.

[theatremouse]

On 11/7/2019 at 6:53 PM, saber5055 said:

I thought it rude (not that it was the only rude thing) that no one asked the baby's name, nor was she acknowledged, when Malik carried her into the Pearson home.

They didn't need to ask her name because they already knew it because Malik told them her name when they met at the dance studio.

On 11/8/2019 at 4:14 AM, ShadowFacts said:

As to whether the baby was expected at the dinner, yes, I think so, because Beth was not the least shocked when they came in with her, and in fact said to the girls, help get Janelle settled.  She knew her name. 

I thought B&R were surprised they brought the baby to dinner. Not just surprised Malik's mom shushed them the second they opened the door. The thing about getting her settled looked to me like Beth turning on a dime and trying not to show that she was not expecting them to have brought the baby.

[PRgal]

23 hours ago, luckylou said:

One thing that supports your theory is that the show is pretty good about choice of names, and Jennifer is not a particularly popular name among African Americans.  I am trying to remember if I ever had an African American student named Jennifer.  I find myself confused often about the time period of the show, but Jennifer is not all that common,  at least around here, with the white cohort currently in high school, either.

That's what I was thinking.  Jennifer is a name that was very common in Randall/Beth's day.  I went to a girls-only school and there were at least five Jennifers in my grade!  Almost all of them were Asian, so it isn't a "white girl name" in my neck of the woods.  I have a very young child and don't really have friends who have kids in high school, so I'm not sure what was popular back in 2003 when Malik was born.  I know Aiden/Aidan (because of Sex and the City.  And yes, I was Team Aidan all the way.  Sorry, Big) wasn't unpopular, but I don't think it's common in the African American community. 

[sasha206]

So, one thing hard for me to reconcile is how Becca is holier than thou when it comes to Jack's jealousy over the teacher and yet she actively kept Randall from his birth dad?  I mean, on one hand I get the why but on the other hand how do they have her hiding all of this with no ill effect on her?  Would have been more interesting to make her have a drinking problem from keeping such a secret from her family.

I also think it's completely unrealistic for Randall to only be upset at Becca for an episode.  I understand forgiving but not that easily.

[qtpye]

23 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Thank you for this post.  I was also thinking about this last night.  I understand why Kevin and Kate would be deeply hurt by Rebecca and her actions.  The idea that Rebecca never visited her children in California and always required them to travel to the east coast for holidays has never sat well with me.  I have not had the best relationship with my mother over the years, but when i lived in a different state she and my dad visited at least once a year.  Rebecca's excuses always read very thin to me.  Especially when you realize that she was willing to move to be closer to Randall.  The Pearson family dynamic has always favored Randall.  I did cheer last season when Rebecca let Randall know that she and Miguel were moving to California.  He was such an ass when he assumed Rebecca would move on down to Philly to take care of his kids.  

That’s my mom she only visited my home once just to see if it was nicer than hers. She and my father never visit me because they need to be kings and queens of their domain.

21 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Unfortunately, that was undercut by his mom telling him that she was probably hungry and where are the bottle was that she had prepared.

I liked Darnell and the fact that he quickly said skipping school was his son’s idea, but I thought his “I’ll take off my shirt and tell you not to judge me for my mistakes” speech was completely undermined by his wife judging Deja for her mother’s actions.  I really wish Beth had brought that to his attention.

Yeah, they call Pearsons bougie and judgemental but Mrs.“let’s say grace” calls Deja fast and has the nerve to imply that she is damaged goods because she is a foster child.

What if someone judged her grand baby for being the daughter of a teen dad?

Edited November 9, 2019 by qtpye

[ShadowFacts]

57 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

This episode dealt with judgment (as another poster in this thread pointed out), but there are differences in judgment, and sometimes judgment is necessary.  Passing judgment should not always be seen as a negative.  Judging Malik is not the same as judging Deja. 

Sure, teenagers do have sex and some of them do have children, but there are many that do not.  I think it's wonderful that Malik is caring for Janelle, but for his mouthy mother to think that no one is going to sit in judgment of her son is just unreal.  There's a difference between judging who someone is (as his mother tried to do with Deja) versus judging an action that a person has done (Malik).  Malik opened himself up to judgment due to his behavior.  Unlike Randall and Beth, the audience also knows that Malik has considered selling drugs.  Also not a stellar choice.

As has been mentioned, Deja has had no control over the circumstances of her life thus far.  She did not choose to be born, have a mother who was a drug addict, have her grandmother die, or decide to be homeless.  Malik chose to have sex which led to the creation of a child.  The reality is that he made a poor choice at this point in his life.  He's stepping up and caring for his daughter, and he should be commended for that, but I also have no problem with sitting in judgment of his choice, and I don't fault Randall and Beth for doing the same thing.

In the effort to be supportive as a society, I sometimes think that we have equalized all choice.  About any issue---large and small---so that the choice itself does not matter.  However, there are choices that have positive outcomes and choices that have negative outcomes.  Judging Randall and Beth for judging Malik is just odd to me since Deja is 14 years old.  It's a no-brainer that that's what they should be doing.

I agree with many of the points here, but though Kelly was way out of bounds in her behavior, I can empathize with her defensiveness to a degree.  (Both mothers were defensive and loaded for bear.)  She probably gets loads of judgment on her son everywhere.  Her son's poor choice is now a real live child, and he was "caught" in a way most young men are not.  How long does he have to pay for/be judged for it?  Is there a time limit?  Is there an expiration date?  When can he have another relationship?  I think that's all worth thinking about in addition to judging him.  I think both Deja's and Malik's current behavior are relevant, too, they both skipped out, and in addition Deja lied about previously going to the movies with him.  It was all wrapped up with "you can never do this again" and a short grounding and stern rules about chaperones, but that really isn't enough.  Those things have to be addressed as much as Malik's previous bad judgment with sex.  She talked about how he made her feel and that it was the best day of her life, they have to go into that, she's going to want to keep looking for that.  For the record, I have said I am not in favor of these two having a relationship beyond school friends right now, for lots of reasons.  But I don't think he has to pay forever for having a child, who he is not just financially responsible for, but who he loves and misses while he's at school. 

[Crs97]

I still cut Rebecca some slack for deciding her son’s biological father who only got recently sober and immediately started making plans for sleepovers before even meeting him doesn’t get access to him.

[ams1001]

14 minutes ago, PRgal said:

That's what I was thinking.  Jennifer is a name that was very common in Randall/Beth's day.  I went to a girls-only school and there were at least five Jennifers in my grade!  Almost all of them were Asian, so it isn't a "white girl name" in my neck of the woods.  I have a very young child and don't really have friends who have kids in high school, so I'm not sure what was popular back in 2003 when Malik was born.  I know Aiden/Aidan (because of Sex and the City.  And yes, I was Team Aidan all the way.  Sorry, Big) wasn't unpopular, but I don't think it's common in the African American community. 

I went to school (in the 80s-90s) with plenty of Jennifers*, but I think the youngest one I know now (personally, at least) is my cousin's daughter, who is 24. (I know an Aiden (15) and an Ayden (6) and worked with someone who also had an Aiden who would be at least late teens now. Don't know for sure if SATC had anything to do with them, but I wouldn't be surprised on at least one of them.)

*(They were all white, but then again, most of my elementary school class at the time was.)

[sasha206]

13 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I still cut Rebecca some slack for deciding her son’s biological father who only got recently sober and immediately started making plans for sleepovers before even meeting him doesn’t get access to him.

But she kept that big secret from Randall who as an adult should have been able to make the choice.  It was understandable why she did that when he was growing up.  It was not acceptable to keep that secret from him when he was old enough to make that choice.  And she was busted; she never offered it up when Randall started to get to know his dad.  As a result, Randall had very little time with his biological father who dies shortly after meeting him.  And somehow he gets over this big lie and its effect in what, one episode?

Edited November 9, 2019 by sasha206

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

How long does he have to pay for/be judged for it?  Is there a time limit?  Is there an expiration date?  When can he have another relationship? 

The baby is ONLY 6months old (at best). That’s the blink of an eye. Not even a full human gestation!!. The paying for his choice has only started. He can have another relationship when he wants to, IF it doesn’t interfere with school, childcare and work; and if his parents don’t mind. I don’t think Malik’s parents demanding a “no dating policy” until he is 18 and in college would be unreasonable considering they are helping him raise the child and he lives under their roof. In my view Malik should have more restrictions on him than Deja because he’s a parent (more responsibility, and less free time). 
 

 That being said if they want to let him date, with firm guidelines on babysitting and all that’s fine too. 
 

I am way more upset about the skipping school than the “Malik has a baby” part because, skipping class is not okay and both kids should be punished for that based on the discipline style the parents prefer. 

[Ohmo]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

How long does he have to pay for/be judged for it?  Is there a time limit? 

My answer to that is this in terms of how long the judgment will last:

1) until he's 18-19 because that is legal age.  In terms of perception, people are known to marry and /or have children at 18.  While young, 18 is also legal, and I think that matters in terms of perception.  Malik is technically a minor himself, which makes perception of the situation more on the negative side than the positive side.

2) Janelle is still very young.  She doesn't look like she's a year old yet, which makes her birth (and Malik's choice) still seem very recent.

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think both Deja's and Malik's current behavior are relevant, too, they both skipped out, and in addition Deja lied about previously going to the movies with him. 

I think, though, that there's a difference between Deja and Malik in that Deja's participation with those behaviors is on a teenage plane.  If Malik wasn't a teenage father, yes, I do believe that he and Deja would both be judged similarly.  However, Malik has already demonstrated that he's willing to engage in some very adult behavior.  He is not going to be given the benefit of the doubt like a non-teenage parent might, especially when he has again spent several hours alone in the company of a teenage girl.

[Snickerdoodle]

On 11/5/2019 at 10:54 PM, memememe76 said:

I live in West Coast Canada, but I am pretty sure I have seen a Rita’s in Chicago and NYC too, although I have never tried it. Not just a Philly thing. 
 

Is that a real cheesesteak place? I went to Gino and the other one across the street.

Rita's originated just outside of Philly.  They have sinced franchised and are now all over. https://www.ritasice.com/about-ritas/history/

I'm from Philly and I thought it was cool to see some off the beaten path things - a mural, RIta's, a Septa bus!  It was nice to see more than the Art Museum and the Rocky statue.  

Edited November 9, 2019 by Snickerdoodle

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

My answer to that is this in terms of how long the judgment will last:

1) until he's 18-19 because that is legal age.  In terms of perception, people are known to marry and /or have children at 18.  While young, 18 is also legal, and I think that matters in terms of perception.  Malik is technically a minor himself, which makes perception of the situation more on the negative side than the positive side.

2) Janelle is still very young.  She doesn't look like she's a year old yet, which makes her birth (and Malik's choice) still seem very recent.

I think, though, that there's a difference between Deja and Malik in that Deja's participation with those behaviors is on a teenage plane.  If Malik wasn't a teenage father, yes, I do believe that he and Deja would both be judged similarly.  However, Malik has already demonstrated that he's willing to engage in some very adult behavior.  He is not going to be given the benefit of the doubt like a non-teenage parent might, especially when he has again spent several hours alone in the company of a teenage girl.

My question is what is the point of harshly judging at all?  What is the effect on a teen parent who is doing all they can given they are still in school, of knowing people are throwing shade no matter how hard they try? When he's 20 and Janelle is 4 people will still be doing the math.  I don't know, it doesn't seem at all helpful.  Is the idea to deter other kids from having sex?  I don't think that works.  Education and contraception help with prevention, not looking down on kids who had kids.  This is like the inverse of the Gilmore Girls, where 16 year-old Lorelai had her parents ashamed of her and the whole of Stars Hollow rallying behind her and adoring her and her kid. 

[Blakeston]

22 hours ago, JKL845 said:

I agree with what everyone is saying about Kevin. Kevin is popular, he fits in. He is funny, charming and connects with his peers. His parents don't seem to see Kevin as needing them like Kate and Randall do. He seems to be doing well so they focus more on the other two. But of course he needs them just as much. 

That was certainly part of it. But I also think that Rebecca flat-out liked Randall better than Kevin. And I think Jack flat-out liked Kate better than Kevin - and respected Randall more than Kevin.

I'm sure it's hard to avoid showing any favoritism when you're raising multiple kids, but both Rebecca and Jack went over-the-top with their favoritism. They didn't even try to hide it.

[The Ringo Kidd]

What is interesting is that Kevin the most celebrated and successful of the Big Three. Maybe he was better off being ignored.

[izabella]

These analyses of Kevin and his place in the family sound so much like Annie.  If they ever show Annie in the future, which they might not because she is the forgotten child in the Randall household, she'll be at her therapist's office.  She'll be the one talking about being ignored because her parents thought she was fine all the time and didn't need as much attention as Deja and Tess.   This episode, they even had her getting snarky, like her uncle Kevin.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 hours ago, PRgal said:

That's what I was thinking.  Jennifer is a name that was very common in Randall/Beth's day.  I went to a girls-only school and there were at least five Jennifers in my grade!  Almost all of them were Asian, so it isn't a "white girl name" in my neck of the woods.  I have a very young child and don't really have friends who have kids in high school, so I'm not sure what was popular back in 2003 when Malik was born.  I know Aiden/Aidan (because of Sex and the City.  And yes, I was Team Aidan all the way.  Sorry, Big) wasn't unpopular, but I don't think it's common in the African American community. 

Maybe her mother was a fan of Jennifer Holiday. 

[Ohmo]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

My question is what is the point of harshly judging at all?  What is the effect on a teen parent who is doing all they can given they are still in school, of knowing people are throwing shade no matter how hard they try? When he's 20 and Janelle is 4 people will still be doing the math.  I don't know, it doesn't seem at all helpful.  Is the idea to deter other kids from having sex?  I don't think that works.  Education and contraception help with prevention, not looking down on kids who had kids.  This is like the inverse of the Gilmore Girls, where 16 year-old Lorelai had her parents ashamed of her and the whole of Stars Hollow rallying behind her and adoring her and her kid. 

I'm going back to your original quote.

4 hours ago, Ohmo said:

How long does he have to pay for/be judged for it?  Is there a time limit? 

I disagree with your belief that when Malik is 20, people will be doing the math.  Some might, but when Malik is an adult, I think that fewer people will be doing that.  This situation is like dating.  If you're a teenager and you date someone 4-5 years older than you, that matters.  If you do the same thing as an adult in your 30s or 40s, it matters much less so (if at all).

The effect of judging also has nothing to do with how Malik is raising Janelle.  However, it has everything to do with the fact that Malik already has a child and has now chosen to pursue a relationship with a 14-year-old girl (Deja).  That is what Malik is being judged upon, not how well he's taking care of Janelle or how hard he's trying.  I don't look down upon Malik, but I do judge if a young man who already has a child who is less than a year old should be making a decision to enter into a romantic relationship with a 14-year-old.  It's just not a wise choice to make.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Ohmo

[JKL845]

And Deja had to grow up too quickly because of her mother. Let her be a child for a little bit of time she has left. She is only 14! Her first relationship and it is with adult responsibilities already. I'd rather see her having fun with friends, joining clubs, sporting events. No need for such a serious relationship right now. I hope she realizes she has lost too much of her youth already and needs to just be friends with Malik right now.

Edited November 10, 2019 by JKL845

[izabella]

1 minute ago, JKL845 said:

And Deja had to grow up too quickly because of her mother. Let her be a child for a little bit of time she has left. She is only 14! Her first relationship and it is with adult responsibilities already. I'd rather see her having fun with friends, joining clubs, sporting events. No need for such a serious relationship right now. I hope see realizes she has lost too much of her youth already and needs to just be friends with Malik right now.

1000x this.  She has her whole life ahead of her and plenty of time for relationships.  She doesn't need one at age 14, much less with someone who has some heavy responsibilities for another human life.

Thinking back to when I was 14, I'm so glad my parents had a no dating until 16 rule, preferably older.  If you're not old and mature enough to drive, you aren't old and mature enough to handle sexual responsibilities, either.  I wasn't.  I was barely capable of handling a curling iron.

[Diana Berry]

I don’t mind the Deja storyline because I’m curious about her future storyline.  Does she travel the straight and narrow or does her romance with Malik have her life turn for the worse?  Just based upon , Malik wanting ‘ extra work’ from the shady friend of his father, I fear things do not bode well for her.

Sidenote, she’s an impressive young actress.

[Veronica]

5 hours ago, izabella said:

These analyses of Kevin and his place in the family sound so much like Annie.  If they ever show Annie in the future, which they might not because she is the forgotten child in the Randall household, she'll be at her therapist's office.  She'll be the one talking about being ignored because her parents thought she was fine all the time and didn't need as much attention as Deja and Tess.   This episode, they even had her getting snarky, like her uncle Kevin.

I’m hoping Future Annie is President. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Veronica

[PRgal]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe her mother was a fan of Jennifer Holiday. 

Or Jennifer Hudson, but that would be pushing it a bit.  I Wikipediaed and JHUD was a finalist in 2004.  Malik is 16 so Jennifer could very well be a year younger.  

[PRgal]

7 hours ago, Veronica said:

I’m hoping Future Annie is President. 

That would be future-future Annie.  The future Annie in the TIU timeline that they’ve shown so far would likely have just left college. 

[gonzosgirrl]

TVLine gave their Performer of the Week award to Asante Blackk for this episode. Apparently they wanted to give it to him for the premier episode as well. I mean, he's fine as the character, but I'm not seeing performer of the week here. Then again, I am not a big fan of the storyline (I prefer the story to focus on the adults in any show, not just this one) so maybe that affects my perception.

I love me some Omar Epps and I wish they could've found some other way to add him to the cast. Maybe William had another love child and Randall has a half-brother?! 🙂