S02.E07: Ten Years

[Clanstarling]

26 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

Okay, I've been thinking about this, just to get real soapy...

They test PJ against Danny and Sophie...PJ and Danny are half brothers via Jon, but Sophie (who, you'll notice, is the only the blonde - a recessive trait* - in the family) is unrelated to PJ and only half-sibling to Danny via their mother.

(*Yes, Jon and Delilah could both carry a blonde gene while having brown hair themselves, but let's not let reality get in the way, here.)

The show doesn't - so why should we. 😉

[sinkwriter]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I didn't have that much of a problem with the anxiety about what was a minor accident. A few years ago a girl Sophie's age smashed into my car (she was at fault), and all during the wait for the police and such (it was a bit more serious - but no injuries), I felt really bad for her that she called her mom, but no one ever came to support her. I'm sure there were reasons, but even if it's minor, it's scary, and I can't fault a mom for rushing to her side (though I did fault this girl's mom for not coming at the time - though I eventually realized she could have been working a night shift, and simply couldn't afford to leave work)

I don't have an issue with Sophie being upset, either. It was probably scary, plus she just got the car, it was something from her late father, and she wrecked it. Plus, as a teen, I would have been worried my mom would be mad at me for wrecking it. So all that is fine and understandable.

I just thought it was ridiculous how they staged it to look (in the scene when Delilah arrived). The metal post was all bent over like it had been a terrible accident. It just seemed over the top, given what we'd been shown (that she barely tapped that thing and wasn't even driving fast enough or far enough away to create such damage to the post). That's the part that made me eyeroll.

Edited November 9, 2019 by sinkwriter

[seacliffsal]

I'm hoping that Eddie and Katherine decide to sue for custody.  If he is the father he has just as much right to being the custodial parent as Delilah.  And, if he's not the father, Delilah has some explaining to do.  Delilah doesn't want to tell the secret?  Fine.  Let it come out in Family Court.  And, agreeing with above posters, might as well run the DNA on all of the kids.  Now THAT would add some drama to this soap.

[Suzn]

It's official.  I hate Delilah.  What a miserable self-centered, selfish bitch!  I hope those who see a change in the way she is written as being less adoring, are right and maybe the show will start acknowledging what a pitiful excuse for a human she is.  Unbelievable that she should think that keeping the secret of Charlie's parentage is all up to her.  All her children, Katherine, Eddie and Theo have every bit as big a stake in it as she does.  The idea that she is protecting her children is completely without merit - she is only protecting herself.  She is failing to take responsibility for her actions and is conveniently forgetting that she was going to abandon her children for Eddie just a few short months ago.

Maggie is coming in a close second to Delilah as an odious person.  The dog switch is so awful.  Others have written pointing out that dogs, even is they look alike, are not interchangeable.  Their personalities, likes and dislikes, and habits are as unique as that of people.  If Maggie thought they really were interchangeable, she would have just gotten the shelter dog for Gary, but no she palmed the ringer off on the old woman.  How insulting and demeaning to the woman and the dog that was.  What she should have done was to get the shelter dog for Gary and say that no, this dog does not replace Collin, but is a lovely dog that needs a home and if you take him in, you will love him for himself.

I am not hate-watching this show and with few exceptions don't waste my time that way.  It is a balance that is still on the positive side.  I pretty much like everyone except Delilah and Maggie and am interested in the outcome of the plot lines, but I can see that if a few more things play out badly, I may reach the tipping point and bail out on this show.

ETA:  The idea that Charlie's parentage can be kept a secret forever is nonsense.  Too many people know and in the time of easy DNA testing and various medical procedures that would disclose it, there is really no way it could remain a secret.  The sooner faced and revealed, the better for everyone, except Delilah, maybe even for her.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Suzn

[sinkwriter]

51 minutes ago, Suzn said:

If Maggie thought they really were interchangeable, she would have just gotten the shelter dog for Gary, but no she palmed the ringer off on the old woman.

What's ridiculous, too, is that Maggie herself made that very point, that dogs aren't interchangeable. Didn't she say it to one of the other friends, when they suggested Gary get the shelter dog? I know she said it someone, and said it wasn't healthy and wouldn't help. So... *headdesk  WTF, Maggie.

[geauxaway]

It’s not just some dog swap scheme, though.  It’s fricking THEFT.  You can’t just withhold someone’s pet because “finders keepers.”  Like, seriously?  Maggie straight up stole that woman’s dog.  And thinks it’s cute?  NO.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I don't have an issue with Sophie being upset, either. It was probably scary, plus she just got the car, it was something from her late father, and she wrecked it. Plus, as a teen, I would have been worried my mom would be mad at me for wrecking it. So all that is fine and understandable.

I just thought it was ridiculous how they staged it to look (in the scene when Delilah arrived). The metal post was all bent over like it had been a terrible accident. It just seemed over the top, given what we'd been shown (that she barely tapped that thing and wasn't even driving fast enough or far enough away to create such damage to the post). That's the part that made me eyeroll.

Oh, no doubt. That part was ridiculous and over the top.

1 hour ago, Suzn said:

It's official.  I hate Delilah.  What a miserable self-centered, selfish bitch!  I hope those who see a change in the way she is written as being less adoring, are right and maybe the show will start acknowledging what a pitiful excuse for a human she is.  Unbelievable that she should think that keeping the secret of Charlie's parentage is all up to her.  All her children, Katherine, Eddie and Theo have every bit as big a stake in it as she does.  The idea that she is protecting her children is completely without merit - she is only protecting herself.  She is failing to take responsibility for her actions and is conveniently forgetting that she was going to abandon her children for Eddie just a few short months ago.

...

ETA:  The idea that Charlie's parentage can be kept a secret forever is nonsense.  Too many people know and in the time of easy DNA testing and various medical procedures that would disclose it, there is really no way it could remain a secret.  The sooner faced and revealed, the better for everyone, except Delilah, maybe even for her.

I think it would have been totally appropriate for Katherine to say "you can lie to your kids all you want, but I'm going to be truthful with mine and let the chips fall where they may." Would kick up a s***storm, of course. But a valid approach (my mother used that once, in a very different context, and she shut down the other mother involved. She was fierce when it came to her kids).

Edited November 9, 2019 by Clanstarling

[debraran]

One thing Nash did stress (I don't have Twitter but see it on FB) was Barbara was pregnant when Dave died, so if anyone thought it was a grief thing later, they were wrong. That was it though.

I'm on the love/hate thing now, I wanted a different show, more like Thirtysomething where there is cancer or some drama, but not the "soap" with babies with paternity issues and Barbara Morgan ad nauseum and all that. I really liked Jon's character and miss him. I had hoped he could do some flashbacks but he still must be busy. Maybe Sophie will have some with him later.

I hated the dog scene (they still might redeem it I hope) hate the "Regina must have a baby" like it's a doll she must acquire, dislike Maggie very much but will enjoy seeing Delilah get some retribution for her actions and like seeing Eddie take responsibility.

I didn't think they did the suicide/cancer fallout's realistically although I know some think that was the case. Jon's suicide to me was just to get viewers in and then forgotten really. Barbara became the focus not Jon. Maggie's cancer was almost end stage the way they talked and now she's fine and although is having slow growing hair, still recovering better than a lot of people and looking great overall.

I thought Thirtysomething back in the day, did a better job for that time period than now dealing with cancer and marriage issues.

I do hope for better scripts though. I think This is Us is a better show in my personal opinion and I appreciate they put some thought into the scripts and even if it doesn't please all, they score well most of the time.

Edited November 9, 2019 by debraran

[iwasish]

8 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Awkwardness is no excuse for not doing the right thing, in my book.

Though Katherine's response to that was great, I would have liked it to me a little more on point "you mean the husband you were leaving to run away with MY husband?"

I had such a hard to parsing that paragraph and ended up laughing, because it just showed how convoluted and soap opera-ish the plot is.

I think Delilah said something like "your Dad bought this car the day you were born" - and my take wasn't that he bought it for her, but that it just happened to coincide with the day of her birth and because of that he wanted to keep it for her.  I could have been putting a lot into the  brief explanation, but that was my takeaway (I mean, it's pretty weird to go to the car dealer after your wife has given birth - but then, on this show it's just an average day).

I didn't have that much of a problem with the anxiety about what was a minor accident. A few years ago a girl Sophie's age smashed into my car (she was at fault), and all during the wait for the police and such (it was a bit more serious - but no injuries), I felt really bad for her that she called her mom, but no one ever came to support her. I'm sure there were reasons, but even if it's minor, it's scary, and I can't fault a mom for rushing to her side (though I did fault this girl's mom for not coming at the time - though I eventually realized she could have been working a night shift, and simply couldn't afford to leave work)

I had to write that paragraph several times to make it understandable and still was confused reading it myself!!  

[sinkwriter]

What annoys me about the Jon parentage reveal is that it's almost like the show runners are saying, "See? Don't hate on Delilah so much. Jon cheated with a married woman too." As if that will somehow absolve Delilah of her behavior and insist that we sympathize with her. Because when she finds out about PJ, she's going to need all her friends' support and they better not call her out on her own behavior.  (Barf.)

Side note: Jon wasn't with Delilah yet, was he? So at that time he was involved with a married woman, but he himself wasn't married. 

Either way... what a mess.

[KaveDweller]

8 hours ago, alexvillage said:

It would be super awkward, for Gary and Maggie. Aw! That's the same mentality that shields Delilah: do something wrong, justify on bullshit premises, hurt someone but if the someone is not close that's ok.

5 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Awkwardness is no excuse for not doing the right thing, in my book.

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that awkwardness made it okay, I said they did the wrong thing. I was explaining why Gary went along with it in the heat of the moment. People often do something crappy because they are just trying to avoid awkwardness in the moment and realize later that it was wrong.

1 hour ago, debraran said:

One thing Nash did stress (I don't have Twitter but see it on FB) was Barbara was pregnant when Dave died, so if anyone thought it was a grief thing later, they were wrong. That was it though.

My memory from watching the show is that Barbara showed up pregnant when she saw Jon at the airport several months after 9/11. I don't remember them knowing she was pregnant before Jon died. But I could be forgetting something.

[debraran]

9 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that awkwardness made it okay, I said they did the wrong thing. I was explaining why Gary went along with it in the heat of the moment. People often do something crappy because they are just trying to avoid awkwardness in the moment and realize later that it was wrong.

My memory from watching the show is that Barbara showed up pregnant when she saw Jon at the airport several months after 9/11. I don't remember them knowing she was pregnant before Jon died. But I could be forgetting something.

I think he was just implying that it was written she was pregnant before and that made the tragedy even worse. Someone asked, "Was barbara pregnant before 911" and he just said Yes.

Also did I miss something, I never thought Dave and Barb were married, that would make his family a bigger part of her life, I thought they were dating and she was pregnant.

Because the writers want the nucleus of friends to be the focus, no one has a family member and if they do, it's dysfunctional. That can be normal but it's always over the top. Regina has issues with her Mom, Rome's were okay, Maggie, enough said, Gary doesn't talk to his Mom, Delilahs dad had dementia and is suddenly not in anyone's radar, even to see the baby, her Mom I assume passed away. Eddie and Jon seemed to have hatched.

Edited November 10, 2019 by debraran

[hcs]

34 minutes ago, debraran said:

I think he was just implying that it was written she was pregnant before and that made the tragedy even worse. Someone asked, "Was barbara pregnant before 911" and he just said Yes.

Also did I miss something, I never thought Dave and Barb were married, that would make his family a bigger part of her life, I thought they were dating and she was pregnant.

Because the writers want the nucleus of friends to be the focus, no one has a family member and if they do, it's dysfunctional. That can be normal but it's always over the top. Regina has issues with her Mom, Rome's were okay, Maggie, enough said, Gary doesn't talk to his Mom, Delilahs dad had dementia and is suddenly not in anyone's radar, even to see the baby, her Mom I assume passed away. Eddie and Jon seemed to have hatched.

But Katherine  the only one I like at the moment and is hands down the best parent on the show  seems to have a good relationship with her mother  but I also don't think she is included as a member of the friends group  because when everyone found out about the affair it was all Eddie you slept with Jon's wife no one said Delilah you slept with Katherine's husband.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, hcs said:

But Katherine  the only one I like at the moment and is hands down the best parent on the show  seems to have a good relationship with her mother  but I also don't think she is included as a member of the friends group  because when everyone found out about the affair it was all Eddie you slept with Jon's wife no one said Delilah you slept with Katherine's husband.

Don't get me wrong, I find Delilah insufferable, but I think, at least in the beginning, they all seemed to know that Eddie and Katherine were having problems, or at least that Eddie was unhappy in his marriage. They all seemed shocked to know that Delilah and Jon weren't the perfect couple. In fact Gary seemed to actively dislike Katherine, yet he was the one most angry at Eddie. I guess that was more for his betrayal of Jon than his cheating on Katherine. I imagine if it were someone else he'd had an affair with, Gary would probably have encouraged him, not want to punch him in the face.

[maggiemae]

I'm glad for the trade of the dogs - the wife said it was her husbands dog and I get she needs the presence of ....a replacement that was not special to her.

[auntiemel]

On 11/8/2019 at 2:17 AM, kazza said:

What's really stopping Katherine from telling Theo? She didn't promise anything. Plus, it seems she's spending more time with Charlie than Delilah is. 

That ending montage with a cover of Yaz' Only You was great. I've always loved that song. 

I agree, if Katherine doesn't want to lie to her own son, she should 100% not be forced to...and, in practical terms, actually can't be forced to, so Delilah should consider that.

Also, Eddie is in recovery. Secrets are his biggest enemy. I'm actively shocked that the phrase "You're Only as Sick as Your Secrets" hasn't come up yet in this show.

Lastly, I totally cosign on that cover being great!

[Dowel Jones]

One other thing about the shelter dog adoption and switch - many shelters require that the adopters register a microchip with a retrieval company (24/7, Home Again, etc.) and they implant the chip at the shelter.  Fast forward to a day when Shelter Dog bolts out of the old lady's house and is recovered by Animal Services.  Aha, they say, there's a chip.  It's registered to Gary and Maggie.  We don't own it, say them. But you adopted here, says the shelter.  Good luck explaining that one.  Even worse if the old lady happens to see the dog at the shelter when she's posting another flyer.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I didn't have an issue with Sophie being so upset. A few years ago, I had a very minor fender bender in a grocery store parking lot. I was pulling out of a parking spot in a row that was one way and had slanted parking. I was backed out and had my foot on the brake while I shifted from reverse to drive. Someone on the other side of the aisle didn't bother to look behind her as she was pulling out of her parking space and backed right into my car. It was about the lowest speed collision ever, but when I got out of the car, my hands were shaking from the adrenaline of "OMG I was just in a car accident."

I am an adult who has been driving for years and it was my own car that I bought for myself. I can't imagine how freaked out I would have been if that had happened when I was a teenager. Even knowing that it wasn't my fault, I know that teen me would have been worried that my parents would be mad. Add to that the fact that the car belonged to Sophie's sainted dead dad who she worships and misses. I'm sure that only added to her tears.

[alexvillage]

10 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

What annoys me about the Jon parentage reveal is that it's almost like the show runners are saying, "See? Don't hate on Delilah so much. Jon cheated with a married woman too." As if that will somehow absolve Delilah of her behavior and insist that we sympathize with her. Because when she finds out about PJ, she's going to need all her friends' support and they better not call her out on her own behavior.  (Barf.)

That was my thought too, and I am afraid the writers will use this excuse coming out of Delilah's mouth to her kids when they find out - in a childish voice she will say: but you dad did it firrrrrrrrst! - and then everyone will be supportive of her because this show.

[readster]

2 hours ago, alexvillage said:

That was my thought too, and I am afraid the writers will use this excuse coming out of Delilah's mouth to her kids when they find out - in a childish voice she will say: but you dad did it firrrrrrrrst! - and then everyone will be supportive of her because this show.

Of course add in the fact, his best friend was killed in 9/11 and the two of them was "in a heat of passion" and Jon couldn't "deal with it" and why he left. Only for super asshole fireman Dave to be: "I'll be your man, we must NEVER speak of the baby outside "our" circle of friends. Yet no one would be: "Umm... PJ's birthday isn't matching up with before your husband died." 

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that awkwardness made it okay, I said they did the wrong thing. I was explaining why Gary went along with it in the heat of the moment. People often do something crappy because they are just trying to avoid awkwardness in the moment and realize later that it was wrong.

My memory from watching the show is that Barbara showed up pregnant when she saw Jon at the airport several months after 9/11. I don't remember them knowing she was pregnant before Jon died. But I could be forgetting something.

That's the way I remember it too.

And to clarify further, I was commenting on the characters' reaction to the awkward situation, not the poster. 🙂

12 minutes ago, readster said:

Of course add in the fact, his best friend was killed in 9/11 and the two of them was "in a heat of passion" and Jon couldn't "deal with it" and why he left. Only for super asshole fireman Dave to be: "I'll be your man, we must NEVER speak of the baby outside "our" circle of friends. Yet no one would be: "Umm... PJ's birthday isn't matching up with before your husband died." 

If they did indeed hook up right after 9/11, then PJ's birthday would match up fine.  I'm sticking to hoping this is a fake out and the hair isn't John's, because I hate this story line which, probably as has been posted, will be used as an excuse for Delilah, despite the fact that neither Jon nor PJ's mother were married at the time - so it's not equivalent. (abandonment, well that's a different shitty story)

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, maggiemae said:

I'm glad for the trade of the dogs - the wife said it was her husbands dog and I get she needs the presence of ....a replacement that was not special to her.

Indeed there are people who don't want to have a constant reminder of someone they're grieving for. Fair point.

But in my experience, dogs become loved by the household, regardless of whose dog it is "officially."  So the way I react to the story, she lost not only her husband, but a companion as well, leaving her very much alone. She kept a bowl of dog food out in the event that the dog would return, which says to me she wanted him back. 

Not to mention, they swapped a virtually identical dog (visually speaking), that they thought would fool her - so dog's going to remind her of her husband regardless of the fact that he's not her husband's dog. 

[readster]

23 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

If they did indeed hook up right after 9/11, then PJ's birthday would match up fine.  I'm sticking to hoping this is a fake out and the hair isn't John's, because I hate this story line which, probably as has been posted, will be used as an excuse for Delilah, despite the fact that neither Jon nor PJ's mother were married at the time - so it's not equivalent. (abandonment, well that's a different shitty story)

Right, abandonment storyline just goes up there with how much Nash is trying to point these people as: "Don't you feel sorry for them?" No, I want to smack all of them. Plus, the only way to undo the DNA is that it's Jon's friend's hair, which could be plausible if they were SUCH GREAT friends. He could have worn the jacket as a joke or just in general. Either way, the story is just spinning and spinning into the biggest set of lies I'm waiting for ALL the characters to die in a building fire. It's so out of control at this point, yet we are SUPPOSE to feel sorry for Delilah. Yes, Jon created the mess before he met her with PJ, but Delilah REFUSING to be the victim in everything from Charlie's pregancy, to her kids, to her affair with Eddie is beyond stupid at this point. Same with Eddie's drinking issue, what ever kicked that off? We are suppose to believe it was being married to Katherine? Or was it his party life? I get Theo making him give it up or stopping himself after Jon died. That has happened to people I know. Where it came down: "I gave it up because of my kids." Yet, what the HELL Is the origin of that? Plus, everything they depicted to Katherine being a reason why Eddie and Delilah had an affair doesn't work well either. I mean at some point, Katherine would have gotten tired or the same take out EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. Or the fact she was a caring mother not at a: "Dammit, I have a job, this annoying kid isn't helping me. Nash screwed up with the casting on Katherine's part if he and the writers originally wanted her to be so unlikable. They turned her into the most realistic character on the show. Talk about screwing up. 

[ams1001]

1 hour ago, readster said:

Plus, the only way to undo the DNA is that it's Jon's friend's hair, which could be plausible if they were SUCH GREAT friends. He could have worn the jacket as a joke or just in general.

Orrr....it was Dave's sweater to begin with and he gave it to Jon, who never actually wore it. IIRC, it was Delilah and the kids who decided to give it to Gary. It's not like Jon left it to him because it meant so much to them. (I mean, Gary seems none too bothered by the fact that his memento of his dead friend given to him by his family just disappeared. And is Rome going to suddenly "find" it in a bag somewhere and give it back?)

1 hour ago, readster said:

Nash screwed up with the casting on Katherine's part if he and the writers originally wanted her to be so unlikable. They turned her into the most realistic character on the show. Talk about screwing up. 

I remember some comments at the beginning of season 1 about the original actress being recast and her scenes from the pilot being reshot with the new actress (I'm not familiar with her, and I have no idea who the original actress was, so I had no expectations on that front either way). Seems like they were originally planning to go in a different direction with her.

[General Days]

7 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

Orrr....it was Dave's sweater to begin with and he gave it to Jon, who never actually wore it. IIRC, it was Delilah and the kids who decided to give it to Gary. It's not like Jon left it to him because it meant so much to them. (I mean, Gary seems none too bothered by the fact that his memento of his dead friend given to him by his family just disappeared. And is Rome going to suddenly "find" it in a bag somewhere and give it back?)

I remember some comments at the beginning of season 1 about the original actress being recast and her scenes from the pilot being reshot with the new actress (I'm not familiar with her, and I have no idea who the original actress was, so I had no expectations on that front either way). Seems like they were originally planning to go in a different direction with her.

Anne Son played Katherine in the original pilot.

Grace Park, who plays Katherine in the series, has had pretty major roles in Battlestar Galactica and the Hawaii Five-0 reboot [which she and Daniel Dae Kim (Jin on Lost) left over pay inequities, between them and the white series regulars]. 

I don't think Nash screwed up with the casting. I think it's interesting that when we didn't know these characters well, Katherine seemed like a villain. As they started to peel back the layers, and fleshed her out more fully, she became much more sympathetic.

I like that the gang (particularly Gary, at least in my memory) originally sided with Eddie, and talked about Katherine like she was a monster, then later had to reckon themselves with how they thought and spoke about her and reality. That reads as very real-life to me. 

[OpalNightstream]

Who are these writers? So we tiptoe around telling Gary that his dog was someone else’s missing dog because that tragic, terrible, earth shattering news may too much to take. Yet we can just show up unannounced and ask a woman who’s been cheated on, publicly humiliated, and had her family torn apart to again babysit for her husband’s love child because that’s no biggie and shouldn’t cause too much distress. They are making this Colin situation as big as a suicide, cancer, and affair-resulting-in-a-baby. 

How convenient that they have two characters getting their driving tests on the same day/place/time. What are the odds? On this show, of course, it’s a certainty.

[CarpeFelis]

5 hours ago, readster said:

Yes, Jon created the mess before he met her with PJ, but Delilah REFUSING to be the victim in everything from Charlie's pregancy, to her kids, to her affair with Eddie is beyond stupid at this point.

I think you meant Delilah is refusing to be the villain? Because she is acting more like she’s the victim.

[readster]

26 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

I think you meant Delilah is refusing to be the villain? Because she is acting more like she’s the victim.

Yes, that's what I meant. Back to PJ, truth is it can all be cleared up with Barbara Morgan simplying saying: "Jon's not the father, I found out I was pregnant right after 9/11. Jon wanted to be there and then got scared because he felt romantic feelings towards me." "It's just that David didn't want anything because I married as asshole for financial reasons." 

[debraran]

I don't know if the outline was there from the beginning but it does seem like they write on the fly at times. They didn't show Jon as the type to ignore a child, it was 2011, he was responsible for it. I hoped they didn't get too "soap opera" with it and he didn't know or she lied etc.

Nash is very involved with the fans it seems (I don't twitter but many do) and maybe it does help the ratings. When they dip, he seems to ramp it up and they love it. I feel you can't have a serious drama and a soap and I still look for the drama but know it wont come.  I just wish he didn't use suicide and cancer to say it was serious when (to me) he didn't pay due diligence to either.

Maybe my memory is fading but Thirtysomething for it's time was more like This is Us. Things might not be like real life, but enough to make you watch and be interesting. I recall ovarian cancer being done as well as it could be at the time and issues in marriage and children. I liked "Eddie" in that more. ; )

I lost all my coworkers and friends with this show, they threw up the towel after season one or last year. I and hang in there in some weird love/hate relationship. I guess when the hate takes over, I'll watch less too.

Edited November 11, 2019 by debraran

[OpalNightstream]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

I don't know if the outline was there from the beginning but it does seem like they write on the fly at times. They didn't show Jon as the type to ignore a child, it was 2011, he was responsible for it. I hoped they didn't get too "soap opera" with it and he didn't know or she lied etc.

Nash is very involved with the fans it seems (I don't twitter but many do) and maybe it does help the ratings. When they dip, he seems to ramp it up and they love it. I feel you can't have a serious drama and a soap and I still look for the drama but know it wont come.  I just wish he didn't use suicide and cancer to say it was serious when (to me) he didn't pay due diligence to either.

Maybe my memory is fading but Thirtysomething for it's time was more like This is Us. Things might not be like real life, but enough to make you watch and be interesting. I recall ovarian cancer being done as well as it could be at the time and issues in marriage and children. I liked "Eddie" in that more. ; )

I lost all my coworkers and friends with this show, they threw up the towel after season one or last year. I and hang in there in some weird love/hate relationship. I guess when the hate takes over, I'll watch less too.

I know nothing about the production of tv shows but aren’t most episodes for the season already done therefore the producers/writers can’t just customize each episode based on recent audience reaction? Again, I know nothing about this, but I can only assume they are already many many episodes ahead of what is airing.  

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

Nash is very involved with the fans it seems (I don't twitter but many do) and maybe it does help the ratings. When they dip, he seems to ramp it up and they love it. I feel you can't have a serious drama and a soap and I still look for the drama but know it wont come.  I just wish he didn't use suicide and cancer to say it was serious when (to me) he didn't pay due diligence to either.

Not quite the same thing, but on that note...I've been watching Jane the Virgin (didn't see it live, so I'm Netflixing it) and while it is an over the top goofy soap opera , it seems to hit more realistic and nuanced emotional beats.

I don't hate this show, I just want it to be better, because the elements are all there.

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, OpalNightstream said:

I know nothing about the production of tv shows but aren’t most episodes for the season already done therefore the producers/writers can’t just customize each episode based on recent audience reaction? Again, I know nothing about this, but I can only assume they are already many many episodes ahead of what is airing.  

So, I agree that they can't customize each episode based on recent audience reaction. It's not like they air an episode, wait for reaction, and then write/film the next.

But, in terms of how far ahead are they with filming, it depends on the show. Sometimes, they film a season before it starts airing (these are typically just for streaming shows OR for shows that air in the spring/summer). And sometimes, in this show's case, they're about four-five episodes ahead in production. So roughly, they are filming an episode five-six weeks before it ends up airing. So, essentially, they may not be able to change things right away, but they CAN change the end game to a season if the reaction is that bad.

For example, take a look at the Delilah/Eddie relationship. Last season, right off the bat, they definitely made it seem like they were leaning toward a Delilah/Eddie relationship scenario, and I truly believe that it was supposed to be Delilah/Eddie as a long-term couple. But, because of the massive negative reaction to the couple, as well as the huge positive reaction to Katherine, it's clear that they had to change up their plans. You can kind of tell last season, probably around the Christmas episode, that they were cutting down on the Delilah/Eddie scenes and adding more Katherine/Eddie scenes. I think, had they not recast Katherine with a semi-well known actress, the character of Katherine would have only been around for season 1. I genuinely believe that.

So, it does depend on the specific reaction and if the showrunner wants to change things up. With Delilah/Eddie/Katherine, they had no choice but to change their plans. Maggie was a character who was supposed to die in season 1 and they changed it up because they loved the actress. 

And then, sometimes, it does feel like they don't have a plan with certain storylines. Sometimes, they ARE thinking of things as they're working on that particular episode. 

[readster]

3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, it does depend on the specific reaction and if the showrunner wants to change things up. With Delilah/Eddie/Katherine, they had no choice but to change their plans. Maggie was a character who was supposed to die in season 1 and they changed it up because they loved the actress. 

And then, sometimes, it does feel like they don't have a plan with certain storylines. Sometimes, they ARE thinking of things as they're working on that particular episode. 

It's been going on for decades in both TV and comics, where elements are introduced with NO CLEAR idea where to go with them. I think Greg Belanti and comic writer JM Demantis said it perfectly: "We have an idea and we hope it goes well, but sometimes it doesn't and we have to know when to cut something or end it before it takes on a life of it's own." The entire part of Delilah is a narcissist has taken on a life of it's own. They keep catering to her whims and we are suppose to feel sorry for her. When other people would have ran her over with a truck and everyone would have been happier for it. 

[Clanstarling]

8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, I agree that they can't customize each episode based on recent audience reaction. It's not like they air an episode, wait for reaction, and then write/film the next.

But, in terms of how far ahead are they with filming, it depends on the show. Sometimes, they film a season before it starts airing (these are typically just for streaming shows OR for shows that air in the spring/summer). And sometimes, in this show's case, they're about four-five episodes ahead in production. So roughly, they are filming an episode five-six weeks before it ends up airing. So, essentially, they may not be able to change things right away, but they CAN change the end game to a season if the reaction is that bad.

For example, take a look at the Delilah/Eddie relationship. Last season, right off the bat, they definitely made it seem like they were leaning toward a Delilah/Eddie relationship scenario, and I truly believe that it was supposed to be Delilah/Eddie as a long-term couple. But, because of the massive negative reaction to the couple, as well as the huge positive reaction to Katherine, it's clear that they had to change up their plans. You can kind of tell last season, probably around the Christmas episode, that they were cutting down on the Delilah/Eddie scenes and adding more Katherine/Eddie scenes. I think, had they not recast Katherine with a semi-well known actress, the character of Katherine would have only been around for season 1. I genuinely believe that.

So, it does depend on the specific reaction and if the showrunner wants to change things up. With Delilah/Eddie/Katherine, they had no choice but to change their plans. Maggie was a character who was supposed to die in season 1 and they changed it up because they loved the actress. 

And then, sometimes, it does feel like they don't have a plan with certain storylines. Sometimes, they ARE thinking of things as they're working on that particular episode. 

I had a very different reaction to the Eddie/Delilah story - I never believed it was supposed to be a long term think and always thought that Delilah was never as into it as Eddie. So from my perspective, I don't think they changed their minds at all.

However, I do think they changed course with Katherine. But I'm not sure it had to do with the audience. They were giving her sympathetic scenes right in the beginning - I don't think it was just that the audience reacted sympathetically to her. I think they saw, after the first episode was in the can, that they couldn't go with her being a shrew because Grace brought so much to the role.

That being said, I don't read anything show runners say - so I don't know if they've made any comments on that, and I could be quite wrong about everything.

I do know that I would rather have any showrunner tell the story they intended rather than change it to suit the fans. I've seen one too many shows ruined because of a vocal minority.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Clanstarling

[readster]

2 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I had a very different reaction to the Eddie/Delilah story - I never believed it was supposed to be a long term think and always thought that Delilah was never as into it as Eddie. So from my perspective, I don't think they changed their minds at all.

However, I do think they changed course with Katherine. But I'm not sure it had to do with the audience. They were giving her sympathetic scenes right in the beginning - I don't think it was just that the audience reacted sympathetically to her. I think they saw, after the first episode was in the can, that they couldn't go with her being a shrew because Grace brought so much to the role.

That being said, I don't read anything show runners say - so I don't know if they've made any comments on that, and I could be quite wrong about everything.

I do know that I would rather have any showrunner tell the story they intended rather than change it to suit the fans. I've seen one too many shows ruined because of a vocal minority.

How true, and I do believe they did change things with Grace in the roll. Plus, the "origin" stories of Eddie and Katherine's marriage problems just never seemed to fit the bill either. Katherine was that oblivious about things that she was doing for her job and even with Eddie and Theo. Now, granted I think Eddie was a big baby, but at the same time, she saw he was having problems. She goes on about Eddie's drinking problems in the past and she might be fueling them again. Yet it was: "Oh, he'll get over it." When this season has pretty much shown, he doesn't "get over it" and he creates the messes himself and then sits there going: "How did I screw everything up?" Well, Eddie, how about you THINK before you act? Or I don't know, try and realize you need a REAL job instead of trying to live a life, that apparently not only you outgrew, but also don't have anytime for anymore. You have an almost teenage son and you now had a baby with another woman because: "Life was so hard with my wife working all the time and getting the SAME take out 5 days a week." Oh Grow up! However, at the same time, you want to go to Katherine and go: "Stop fantasying how life would be better away from Boston and maybe, I don't know be an adult and talk about things.

[AttackTurtle]

Can Delilah be the death in the preview?  Seriously, she is the worst.  I’m glad that Regina is coming around to seeing things from Catherine’s point of view.  Not only is she depriving Toby of his sister, but she’s depriving Charlie of her father.  One would think she’d understand the huge loss that is given her other kids lost their dad.

My dad passed away when I was six years old.  I dated an ass-hat, who once claimed that I was lucky he died as opposed to having my parents divorce (as was his case).  Mind you, this kid had a very good relationship with both of his “living” parents.  To me the choice between having a dad vs. not having a dad is kind of a no-brainer (not including really abusive horrible fathers in this).  I dated that 20 years ago and I still pity the poor girl who he ended up marrying.

[Brian Cronin]

Nash has been hinting at a surprise death since September, so I guess this is it, but I can't think of anyone, for the life of me, whose death would be THAT big of a deal besides one of the main cast members and I doubt any of them are dying, right? 

They all liked Delilah's dad, but how could that be a shock? I'm stumped here. Although, as I write that, I'm also probably setting myself up for a fall by expecting the "shocking death" to make some logical sense, ya know? Which it likely won't, since Nash is such a hack. 

So it will be, like, the lactation specialist or something. 

"No, not the bitchy lactation specialist!" "She meant so much to me!" "Rome, I think we SHOULD have a kid now, the death of the lactation specialist has turned me around!"

[debraran]

31 minutes ago, Brian Cronin said:

Nash has been hinting at a surprise death since September, so I guess this is it, but I can't think of anyone, for the life of me, whose death would be THAT big of a deal besides one of the main cast members and I doubt any of them are dying, right? 

They all liked Delilah's dad, but how could that be a shock? I'm stumped here. Although, as I write that, I'm also probably setting myself up for a fall by expecting the "shocking death" to make some logical sense, ya know? Which it likely won't, since Nash is such a hack. 

So it will be, like, the lactation specialist or something. 

"No, not the bitchy lactation specialist!" "She meant so much to me!" "Rome, I think we SHOULD have a kid now, the death of the lactation specialist has turned me around!"

I hope to God he doesn't do a shooting, that is NOT soap material or sensitive to all the people hurt from it. But I was thinking of Elliot or a kid. To be honest, with the ageism on the show, calling poor Edna an "old bag", I doubt "heartbreaking" is an older adult.  He can't get rid of the main cast so who is left.  Kids would warrant the "warning" he wants to put in the beginning. I hope I'm wrong.  Ratings are important but to stoke this the way he is, he's hoping for very high ratings for the end of this season. I just hope not at the expense of many who will hurt forever.

[Brian Cronin]

Oh god, could Elliot maybe kill himself? Nash DID hint that there was more coming in the Danny/Elliot plotline and that it would be heartbreaking. That would be so fucked up. They couldn't go there, could they? But would Gary and all of them go to Elliot's funeral? Seems hard to believe, no? 

EDITED TO ADD: My bad, I see we have a speculation thread, I'll just go over there now with this stuff. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Brian Cronin

[snarkylady]

4 minutes ago, Brian Cronin said:

Oh god, could Elliot maybe kill himself? Nash DID hint that there was more coming in the Danny/Elliot plotline and that it would be heartbreaking.   But would Gary and all of them go to Elliot's funeral? Seems hard to believe, no?

Perhaps Delilah will ask them to go -- to comfort Danny.  And you don't have to personally know a child to find his death heartbreaking. 

[iwasish]

20 minutes ago, snarkylady said:

Perhaps Delilah will ask them to go -- to comfort Danny.  And you don't have to personally know a child to find his death heartbreaking. 

And they all have so little else to do.  Gary will enjoy the free food at the repast afterward, he’ll probably stuff chips and a few sandwiches in his pockets and everyone will laugh at how funny he is. I find him annoying, childish and incredibly immature. And I can’t stand Maggie’s pink wig. How Gary hasn’t snatched it and paraded around in it,  I  have no idea.

[Dowel Jones]

It's the continuity editor, I tell you. 

[iwasish]

Maybe the death will be PJs stepfather. He’s a firefighter, it would be easy to kill him off and that would free up  Barbara Morgan and PJ to come forward with the PJ is Jon’s son plot and complicate the Charlie is Eddies daughter situation. 
 

[debraran]

5 hours ago, iwasish said:

Maybe the death will be PJs stepfather. He’s a firefighter, it would be easy to kill him off and that would free up  Barbara Morgan and PJ to come forward with the PJ is Jon’s son plot and complicate the Charlie is Eddies daughter situation. 
 

I thought of that too but Nash said "heartbreaking" and I only could think of kids but with Domestic Violence month in October, I thought of the weird vibe with Mitch and how controlling he is, if PJ says something to them, maybe (by accident) something happens to Mom and PJ needs Rome to help him as preview says.

It does seem though that fans think of more interesting things than the writers at times. : )

[Miss Bones]

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 3:02 PM, cardigirl said:

Who buys a car for their kid on the day they are born?  Seriously? 16 years is a long time for a car to just sit. Even if it is a two-seater Lexus. What a dopey story line.  She can drive her brother around as immediate family members are allowed with underage drivers in Massachusetts, but she shouldn't have been driving PJ around unless he's 21:

Teens holding a junior operator's license may not drive with any passengers under age 18 (other than an immediate family member) for the first 6 months unless accompanied by a licensed driver at least 21 years old. They may not drive between 12:30 a.m. and 5 a.m. unless accompanied by a parent or legal guardian.

The dog storyline was pretty dumb too. I really hope the fake Colin is a sweet dog, and not aggressive, but seriously, how does Nash not think that story is not insensitive and insulting to a broad section of the viewing population?  Anyone who has ever owned a dog would understand Gary's anguish, but also would have sympathy for the widow, and would be horrified by that story. 

The best part, as always, was watching Katherine kicking butt and taking names. Go Katherine! Get Delilah!  Li'l Delilah says "I'm not going to let you hurt my kids."  Baby, you've already done it.  Nobody hurt them but you.  

And how adorable was that li'l dress Katherine got Charlie?  🙂

I saw this mentioned further back in the thread, as well.  I took it as Jon bought the car for himself on the day that Sophie was born.  He drove it from then, until the time he died (or for most of that time), with the intention of gifting it to her when she got her license, since that would be a good time-frame for him to get himself a new car, while being able to gift his old car to his daughter.  That makes sense, IMO.  Then the car wasn't sitting or needing to be hidden from Sophie in the garage for 16 years lol.

ETA:  And I am pretty sure she said *paraphrasing*:   "[Jon] bought this car on the day you were born"  not "Bought this car for you on the day that you were born".

Edited November 12, 2019 by Miss Bones
More to add

[cardigirl]

2 minutes ago, Miss Bones said:

I saw this mentioned further back in the thread, as well.  I took it as Jon bought the car for himself on the day that Sophie was born.  He drove it from then, until the time he died (or for most of that time), with the intention of gifting it to her when she got her license, since that would be a good time-frame for him to get himself a new car, while being able to gift his old car to his daughter.  That makes sense, IMO.  Then the car wasn't sitting or needing to be hidden from Sophie in the garage for 16 years lol.

I'll have to rewatch that part, as I was pretty certain Delilah said that Jon bought the car FOR Sophie on the day she was born and not just that he bought the car the day she was born, but if that was what she said, then that makes much more sense. Surprising sense for this show.  Ha ha.  

[Miss Bones]

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 9:10 PM, LucyEth said:

The woman playing Colin's original owner played Doug's mom on the King of Queens.  I find it a little funny that they had a storyline where Doug discovers that his parents kept replacing his dog with a look a like since he was a kid.  She was perfect for the role last night😁

I loved Katherine letting Delilah have it with the truth. Looks like Katherine is done playing nice.  Best thing in the episode.  

The car for Sophie was ridiculous, where were they hiding it for like 17 years.  I have to say I find Daniel more annoying than Theo.

^^ THIS!  I find him completely insufferable!  Theo can be overly precocious, but Danny is straight up grating!  I can't believe they would give him a storyline where he wins the lead in the school play, when THE ACTOR is such an atrocious actor!  Also, the kid sounds like he smokes a pack a day!

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 10:25 PM, sinkwriter said:

I don't know why, but I assumed Jon drove that car (once in a while at least, maybe as a second car?), and simply planned to hand it down to Sophie when she was old enough. I didn't think it was a secret. I just thought Sophie was surprised that she was going to get the car, like maybe she assumed her mom would sell Jon's car at some point, since they didn't need it, with him gone. They didn't really explain it except to say that Jon wanted her to have it, did they? Or did I miss a sentence or two in my annoyance with Delilah in this episode? 😉

Among other things, I know her as the frustrating, semi-nasty mom of David Silver's "best" friend Scott on the original 90210.

I didn't see that you and others made similar comments, before I posted mine.  I usually read through them all to avoid being too repetitive.  Also, David Silver is so precious to me!  :)

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 10:07 AM, CarpeFelis said:

I just love it when people who get caught out for doing something horrible blame the messenger instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. WTF, Delilah! If your kids find out, it won’t be Katherine who’s hurt them, IT WILL BE YOU (and Eddie). Perhaps you should have thought about their feelings back when you were planning to leave them and their dad.

And the dog switch... WTF to that, too. Did Maggie think that because the woman had been without HER dog for a year, she wouldn’t realize this wasn’t him? Plus, apparently Maggie thinks that Sharpie never wears off (not to mention the poor dog would have reeked of Sharpie) or that the shade of black she covered his white spot with would be a perfect match for his fur. I’ve tried that before with objects (not living animals!) and trust me, it doesn’t always match.

Wasn’t real impressed with Gary either. I expected him to come clean about the “survey” and admit he’d had Wesley for a year but only just found out who his real owner was. But no...

Third WTF... I thought last year’s finale established that PJ was the son of Jon’s friend who died on 9/11?

I'm sorry-- I don't think you were really trying to be funny with the bolded part of your quote--but I laughed so hard at the "not living animals!" part. 

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I'll have to rewatch that part, as I was pretty certain Delilah said that Jon bought the car FOR Sophie on the day she was born and not just that he bought the car the day she was born, but if that was what she said, then that makes much more sense. Surprising sense for this show.  Ha ha.  

Ain't that the truth!  And I could be wrong-- that is just what I remember hearing.  However, I'm one of the hate-watchers, so I admit I am not always paying 100% attention.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Miss Bones
grammar

[smartymarty]

On 11/8/2019 at 8:04 PM, KaveDweller said:

So even if he convinced Maggie to turn around, it would have been super weird to go up to the woman with a different dog and explain what happened. I don't think he would have gone along with it if he knew beforehand.

Sure, weird for Gary. But he didn't need to explain. MAGGIE did. She's the one who did it. And apologize profusely.

[smartymarty]

On 11/9/2019 at 9:46 AM, Clanstarling said:

(I mean, it's pretty weird to go to the car dealer after your wife has given birth - but then, on this show it's just an average day).

to buy a two-seater car.

I did have a problem with Sophie calling her mom about the accident. Yes, upsetting. But it was a one-car accident. I can see calling for a parent when one is at fault for damaging someone else's car, police come to write up report, insurance exchanged. But I dinged the car, no personal injuries? You drive it home and then let parent comfort you. Sophie just seems too mature to have needed her mother for this.

Edited November 12, 2019 by smartymarty

[cardigirl]

2 hours ago, smartymarty said:

to buy a two-seater car.

I did have a problem with Sophie calling her mom about the accident. Yes, upsetting. But it was a one-car accident. I can see calling for a parent when one is at fault for damaging someone else's car, police come to write up report, insurance exchanged. But I dinged the car, no personal injuries? You drive it home and then let parent comfort you. Sophie just seems too mature to have needed her mother for this.

Oh, it was all a set up to make Delilah feel imperiled with the possibility of losing her children, so she would dig her heels in ever further about Charlie.  Sophie was in an accident, she could have lost her too!  No way is she going to reveal the truth and lose her that way. So, to "protect the children" (when in reality it is to protect her ownself) she's not going to tell the truth about Charlie's parentage.  Poor little Delilah.