S01.E02: The Rabbit Hole

[Trini]

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Back in Gotham, battling Alice (Rachel Skarsten) and the Wonderland Gang from the shadows, Kate Kane (Ruby Rose) continues to be haunted by the events surrounding her sister's death 15 years earlier. While the city holds on to hope that Batman has returned, Jacob Kane (Dougray Scott) and the Crows up the stakes trying to take down the villainous crew. Kate continues to look to Bruce Wayne's legacy for guidance as Luke Fox (Camrus Johnson) inadvertently gets pulled into Batwoman's vigilante heroics. Sophie (Meagan Tandy) and Kate are forced to team up, while Mary (Nicole Kang) finds herself in Alice's crosshairs. Elizabeth Anweis also stars.

The episode was written by Caroline Dries and directed by Marcos Siega.

Airdate: 10/13/2019

[scarynikki12]

Rachel Maddow’s voice work was on point. “Was it Robin’s high school graduation?” Hee

Sophie has basically figured it out but I hope that Mary is the first person Kate tells when she realizes she needs to bring people into the fold. I’m loving the sister dynamics and that would play into it. 

The accident broke Beth, Kate, and Papa Kane and I like the different ways it’s being explored. 

My favorite scene so far was that moment in the water when Alice saw Batwoman and reached to touch her face only to have the car blown up. All of this may be solved by a long and big reunion hug. 

Yes! Stepmama has her own agenda/may be a villain. Can’t wait to see more. 

[bettername2come]

They never mentioned the two of them were twins last week did they? Cause that threw me off as I assumed Beth was a slightly younger sister. The Veronica Mars fan in me was amused by the dad being named Jacob Kane. 

All right, so the Wonder Woman reference makes me more sure that they are not on Earth 1 and that this is a different Kate than the one we met last year.

I think Ruby Rose is doing a good job with the sisterly stuff. I continue to like the stepsister. 

[mtlchick]

MUCH better than the pilot, but what may drive me away post Crisis is how bad of an actor Ruby Rose is, which is modifying her stare for each scene.  Which is too bad because I think outside of her and Dougray Scott who is all over the place in the current day scenes, the rest of the cast are pretty solid. 

[hypnotoad]

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hat may drive me away post Crisis is how bad of an actor Ruby Rose is

Yeah it's kind of hard for me to believe there wasn't a better actress available in all of Hollywood!

[statsgirl]

This show is really dark and bleak.  It doesn't have any of the humour of the other Arrowverse shows, not even the black humour of Arrow.

I liked the red bat symbol.

Did Rachel Maddow agree to do the voiceover because of Kate's sexual orientation and hair style?

Is Catherine the new Malcolm Merlyn?

45 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Sophie has basically figured it out but I hope that Mary is the first person Kate tells when she realizes she needs to bring people into the fold. I’m loving the sister dynamics and that would play into it.

I really think that Mary and the dynamic she has with Kate is the best thing about this show.

Sophie still reminds me of Laurel, especially when Kate said if she'd known Sophie was getting married she would have come back sooner to stop it.  It's the whole dysfunctional star-crossed thing, they're star-crossed because they are dysfunctional. 

I still think that Luke is a Discount Curtis. But I liked that he pointed out to Kate what she's doing letting people think that Batman is back.

[quarks]

1. Ok, so if Wonder Woman is in this universe, and apparently around enough that people can casually reference her, how come we haven't heard of her before this? Or should we just blame Barry?

Also, did that Robin reference mean that we're getting Nightwing, and if we don't, can we just blame Barry again?

2. I see it took all of two episodes for this show to start using the Arrowverse sets. How long before Alice sets up a permanent base in a warehouse? Start of next episode?

3. I can't help but feel that the citizens of Gotham would have noticed the Batmobile and the Batcycle driving into the employee parking at Wayne Enterprises before this. 

4.  Still cracking up at the Rachel Maddow bits. Still liking the stepsister. Still thinking Rachel Skarsten is at least having more fun here than in previous roles.

Still not feeling the rest of the cast. 

[Lantern7]

Well, that was fun. While I'd want Kate to start whuppin' on more folks, Alice and her bunch make for good introductory foes. And Alice has the makings of a great archfoe. Bonus: she's using Alice in Wonderland has a theme and she's nowhere near as obnoxious about it as Jervis Tetch was over in Gotham.

16 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Is Catherine the new Malcolm Merlyn?

There can be only one.

47 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

Yeah it's kind of hard for me to believe there wasn't a better actress available in all of Hollywood [to play Kate]!

I'm good with Ruby. I'm guessing the showrunners were going for asskickery as the prime qualification.

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

Rachel Maddow’s voice work was on point. “Was it Robin’s high school graduation?” Hee

Does anyone think there's a conflict of interest? I'm good with her either way.

[quarks]

5 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Does anyone think there's a conflict of interest? I'm good with her either way.

Maddow announced that she would be on Batwoman at the end of one of her episodes last week, so presumably MSNBC is fine with it.

If she starts voicing "This is CNN!" that might be more of an issue.

[UNOSEZ]

Another good episode... I wonder what the stepmom's motivation is.. I think/hope.. Its merely business... If it came out that the madwoman causing mayhem was the long lost daughter of the guy protecting the city.. It would hurt the bottom line... Enjoying the stepsister and Mr. Fox... Sophie is the wettest of blankets.. But for some reason I've never enjoyed Ms. Tandy on any show she's been on... I've always disliked her characters.. And I'm always partial to the sisters getting good roles.. So I hope that works itself out.. Looking FWD to next week.. When we finally get the proper suit 

[thuganomics85]

"You finally figured it out!"  To be fair, Alice, this is only the second episode!  Most CW heroes take at least an entire season to figure out the secret identity of their nemesis, but you have to at least give Kate credit for figuring it all out before the pilot ended!

A solid step above the first episode, although I still find myself drawn more to everyone but Kate, mainly due to the supporting cast being stronger than Ruby Rose.  Again, I don't think Ruby is bad, but she just comes off like she is aiming for stoicism, but can just come off kind of dull instead.  I do think the she fares better when she is allowed to lighten up a bit (mainly with Luke), but I'm still just finding her to be lacking in the charisma department.

Glad they let Rachel Skarsten chew the scenery more this go-around.  She seems to be having fun.

Kind of strange that Dougray Scott was way better in all of the flashbacks, compared to the present day stuff.  Maybe it was because he was allowed to do something besides yelling at Kate and barking orders at his underlings.

I get why Sophie ratted out Kate's plan, but she more or less showed why it was probably wise for Kate not to tell her about the whole Batwoman thing (even though I suspect her suspicions will continue on.)

Do hope we get more of Mary going forward.  And it looks like Katherine is up to something?  Hmm....

[Samwise979]

Anyone else get the feeling the dad lied about the bone fragments to protect Kate from driving herself crazy searching? 

I was thinking last week the stepmom is probably not too happy batman may be back. Her whole business is about protecting Gotham post batman. If he's back, Gotham doesn't need the crows. 

I hope the stepsister gets more of a role. She's great. And loved that she told Kate off for being a lousy sister. 

[Jediknight]

Love how quick they're blowing through the mysteries that would drag out and cause unnecessary drama.  They know Beth is Alice, Sophie knows that Kate is Batwoman, Kate's admitted she was wrong about Luke, and somebody else is in play.  Good job writers.

Robin and Wonder Woman have been established to exist on this Earth in this episode.  We knew Themyscira existed, but had no confirmation of Diana, now we do.  And I wonder what Robin we'd get, guessing Tim, since Dick and Jason are apparently on Titans (sorry haven't seen it).

[Primal Slayer]

It was ok but I just am not feeling these flashbacks. We don't really need constant flashbacks to how Kate and her father dealt with the "death" of Alice and the mom/wife, the characters should be able to exude that themselves during the present. We didn't start out with flashbacks in Arrow to try to tell us how Quentin/Laurel were dealing with Sarahs death, we saw them deal with the pain and work through it, that is what Batwoman needs to learn. 

The relationship between Kate/Alice is also ok but it has been a bit rushed I feel and while I commend them for not dragging out the reveal that Alice is Kates sister, it may be a bit detrimental to the show if we spend a full season of this back/forth with them. 

While they are putting plenty of focus on the Kane family, they are neglecting the "step" side of the family and how they feel as a whole. I don't remember if Kates father is still married to whatshername...but if they are...it feels non-existent. Along with Kates fathers relationship with his step daughter and Kate with her step mother. 

The step sister is by far the most enjoyable character on the show though. 

[scarynikki12]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Sophie still reminds me of Laurel

They have some basic structural similarities (ex-girlfriend of the lead, set up in the pilot as the Love Interest, romantically unavailable when our story begins, on side of law and order) but that's where it ends for me. The whole of the relationship between Sophie and Kate, whatever happens going forward, is tragic but can be believably mended. Nothing about them together or individually has even a little of the toxicity that was the Laurel and Oliver relationship.

1 hour ago, quarks said:

. Ok, so if Wonder Woman is in this universe, and apparently around enough that people can casually reference her, how come we haven't heard of her before this? Or should we just blame Barry?

Also, did that Robin reference mean that we're getting Nightwing, and if we don't, can we just blame Barry again?

Maybe WW just operates in Europe? I don't expect us to even get Robin much less Nightwing thanks to Titans/WB rules but I'll never say no to blaming Barry for not having nice things.

1 hour ago, quarks said:

I can't help but feel that the citizens of Gotham would have noticed the Batmobile and the Batcycle driving into the employee parking at Wayne Enterprises before this. 

The people of Gotham have to be the most willfully ignorant bunch of fools in the world.

47 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

"You finally figured it out!"  To be fair, Alice, this is only the second episode!  Most CW heroes take at least an entire season to figure out the secret identity of their nemesis, but you have to at least give Kate credit for figuring it all out before the pilot ended!

Alice was so proud of Kate. It cracked me up.

47 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Kind of strange that Dougray Scott was way better in all of the flashbacks, compared to the present day stuff.  Maybe it was because he was allowed to do something besides yelling at Kate and barking orders at his underlings.

I think it's to demonstrate that he's emotionally closed himself off since accepting that Beth's body wouldn't be found. Now that Kate's home and Alice has been revealed to be Beth we may see him open up more, even if he's trying not to.

41 minutes ago, Samwise979 said:

Anyone else get the feeling the dad lied about the bone fragments to protect Kate from driving herself crazy searching? 

That's an interesting theory and would fit with what we saw. He certainly reached his own breaking point and was concerned about Kate obsessing over the search so he may have thought it was for the best to fake some evidence/tell Kate that some evidence was found in an attempt to let them both start healing. If he was lying/faked the evidence then that will provide more fuel to the fraught relationship with both daughters. That could bring us some great stuff so I'm hoping it turns out to be true.

44 minutes ago, Samwise979 said:

I was thinking last week the stepmom is probably not too happy batman may be back. Her whole business is about protecting Gotham post batman. If he's back, Gotham doesn't need the crows. 

She's either protecting the bottom line or there's a larger conspiracy that could go back as far as to the day the car went into the river.

42 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

And I wonder what Robin we'd get, guessing Tim, since Dick and Jason are apparently on Titans (sorry haven't seen it).

I don't think we're going to get a Robin to play with but, if we are, I'd put money on it being that little shit Damian. I don't think they'd be able to resist having Bruce's bio son if given the opportunity.

[paulvdb]

57 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

It was ok but I just am not feeling these flashbacks. We don't really need constant flashbacks to how Kate and her father dealt with the "death" of Alice and the mom/wife, the characters should be able to exude that themselves during the present.

What I want from the flahbacks is to find out how Beth/Alice survived the crash and what happened to her after that. Why did she not go home to her father and sister? Did she already choose to become Alice at that time? Or did she have memory loss and not remember who she was? Or was she kidnapped by some villain who raised her to become a villain herself?

That last theory could also explain the bone fragments. Because a villain would have no trouble shaving some fragments of Beth's skull and plant them somewhere for Jake to find. I don't think Jake lied about it and the only other explanation I could think of was that the stepmother faked the evidence. But I don't think she was already in the picture back then.

[statsgirl]

(

2 hours ago, Samwise979 said:

Anyone else get the feeling the dad lied about the bone fragments to protect Kate from driving herself crazy searching?

I think it's the step mom. I think I caught her name on the envelope. She may have wanted him and he wasn't moving forward in his life because he was so stuck on looking for Beth.

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

They have some basic structural similarities (ex-girlfriend of the lead, set up in the pilot as the Love Interest, romantically unavailable when our story begins, on side of law and order) but that's where it ends for me. The whole of the relationship between Sophie and Kate, whatever happens going forward, is tragic but can be believably mended. Nothing about them together or individually has even a little of the toxicity that was the Laurel and Oliver relationship.

Sophie denied being in a relationship with Kate in school as Kate got kicked out (betrayal), she works for Kate's father but hasn't contacted Kate in the intervening years even to invite her to the wedding or even to tell her about it (another kind of betrayal), shows no sign of wanting to pick up the friendship with Kate, and outed her to her father when she went to meet Alice (betrayal again). This is not good for someone who is potentially the partner of a superhero. Ratting Kate out to her dad also seems like a Laurel thing to do "I know better what's good for you than you do".

It seems to me more dysfunctional than anything else although if Kate can't get over being head over heels in love with someone who isn't strong enough for her, it could be tragic.

I don't think it can be mended but I'm worried that they're going to try and it will end up a mess.

[quarks]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Sophie denied being in a relationship with Kate in school as Kate got kicked out (betrayal), she works for Kate's father but hasn't contacted Kate in the intervening years even to invite her to the wedding or even to tell her about it (another kind of betrayal), shows no sign of wanting to pick up the friendship with Kate, and outed her to her father when she went to meet Alice (betrayal again). This is not good for someone who is potentially the partner of a superhero.

Yes, but on the bright side, Kate hasn't slept with Sophie's sister and Sophie hasn't slept with Kate's best friend. So, progress!

I think the larger problems here are a) Sophie's married, so until the husband dies (presumably this season) anything between Kate and Sophie is cheating, which might not be too popular with viewers. Given how quickly they moved on the Alice/Beth reveal, he might die in the next episode, but, still, and b) Kate and Sophie really don't seem to have much chemistry. It's not the anti-chemistry that was Oliver and Laurel, granted, but it's also definitely not what Barry and Iris had  - and they had a kinda questionable first season setup, too. Or even what Kara and James had. It's just nonexistent.

[Loandbehold]

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Glad they let Rachel Skarsten chew the scenery more this go-around.  She seems to be having fun.

It's the most fun I've seen her have since her early appearances on Lost!Girl.

8 hours ago, paulvdb said:

What I want from the flahbacks is to find out how Beth/Alice survived the crash and what happened to her after that. Why did she not go home to her father and sister? Did she already choose to become Alice at that time? Or did she have memory loss and not remember who she was? Or was she kidnapped by some villain who raised her to become a villain herself?

I'd go with the last option. Seems the most logical as it would explain both her behavior as well as why the bone fragments had Beth's DNA (assuming that's real). 

[bmoore4026]

Well, I'm loving the show. 

I'm really hoping the woman Kate had a crush on gets run over multiple times by a bus...hopefully driven by Alice.

The actress playing Alice continues to knock it out of the park.  That line about how long was it before Kate had a restful sleep was amazing.

Not going to lie - Daddy Kane breaking down in tears after seeing that drawing was amazing.  I ragged on Dougray Scott but he really is a good actor...except for that Jersey accent.

Liked that scene between Kate and her stepsister.  Turns out the stepsister has been the Cinderella this whole time, thinking Kate didn't love her.  And it was actually terrifying with Dodgson chasing her down with the fire ax.  I'm figuring Alice's orders consisted of four certain words said by the Queen of Hearts.

Speaking of which, you know what Alice needs.  Lorna Luft as the Queen of Hearts.  She was able to knock Batman back several yards with a single kick.  Little Batman: The Animated Series reference there.

That underwater scene with Kate and Alice was beautiful.  Could not have been easy for the actresses.

So Kate respects Luke now after being bitchy to him because he woke her up before the cops got to her? 

Spoiler

And I was wrong.  All this time I thought it would be Daddy Kane that killed his wife, but there's something suspicious with the stepmother.  Could she be...wicked!?

Not going to lie, the "I'm not Batman" line was awesome.  The follow up with the punch in the gut was delicious.  I like this ruthless Batwoman.

All in all, I think this show will be a worthy successor to Arrow once that ends.

Edited October 14, 2019 by bmoore4026

[Lady Calypso]

Well, that was a solid second episode. I enjoyed it quite a bit, actually. I do like how people aren't dumb. At the very least, secrets are suspected, even if not downright exposed. From Kate figuring out Alice is Beth to Sophie asking Kate if she was Batwoman, it's kind of nice that they don't seem to make characters dumb for plot reasons. Sure, Kate managed to deflect away from Sophie's question, but we know that Sophie won't be downright shocked once she knows for sure that Kate is Batwoman. 

Mary is definitely my favourite character thus far. She's so interesting and the actress is fantastic. The scene after her attack when she's talking to Kate was well done. I'm hoping Kate brings Mary in on her crusade soon enough, because it's clear that Mary would be a valuable asset.

The scenes with Alice and Kate are very well done. Rachel Skarsten is doing a great job and looks like she's having a blast.

Dougray Scott played Jacob Kane in the flashbacks very convincingly. I felt for him when he broke down after he was convinced Beth was dead.

Ruby Rose stepped it up a bit in this episode. For me, I find the weak link is more Luke Fox. Something about him just irks me. I need a little more from him.  

I'm hoping for more from the supporting characters in the next couple of episodes. I'm curious as to what role Kate's stepmother plays.

[CabotCove]

Awesome episode,  2 out of 2.

We got to see Kate's  relationships with other characters being fleshed out. Ruby seems to settle more into her role, she is getting in the groove. Her sibling relationship with Alice/Beth was a huge focus here and it works, as well as with Mary. Yay for the focus on sisterhood. Mary can be a bit immature and annoying at times but she is likable when playing doctor, here is hoping thats the side, they will focus  more on. Luke/Kate are starting to connecting better too, but he need to have a life outside the batcave lol. 

Sophie/Kate were much better this time around, they had more scenes working together and got to show their rapport. The husband thing is  kind of a bummer, as a black love interest she already has a lot against her from the get go, they didnt need to add such a big wedge between them. 

 People will be wishing she and this love story get replaced before she is even given a chance, and these shows are just as quick to want to get rid of Interracial  romances for the lead. At least for now everyone around Kate is related to her, except for Sophie and Luke is a man. Sophie as a Crow agent fits well in the story, even without being a love interest. No reason to get rid of her just yet, if at all. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by CabotCove

[rainsmom]

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, but I laughed out loud when Kate rode the bat cycle into the Wayne Industries garage. As noted above, that just MIGHT have been noticed when Batman was around.

I really wanted Kate to absolutely FLATTEN Sophie in the park. I can tell Sophie is going to get on my nerves in a big way.

[UNOSEZ]

4 hours ago, CabotCove said:

The husband thing is  kind of a bummer, as a black love interest she already has a lot against her from the get go, they didnt need to add such a big wedge between them. 

 People will be wishing she and this love story get replaced before she is even given a chance, and these shows are just as quick to want to get rid of Interracial  romances for the lead.

Especially on the CW... I feel a bit of a saving grace is.. She's the love interest of a woman.. And so far at least its been opposite sex interacial LI's that have gotten the most guff... But even if her husband bites it and she doesn't get with Kate right away.. Have no fear... The cw will pair her up with another White LI... The track record for this across their shows is astounding... Every WOC on Legends.. Everyone Iris went with on the flash.. Linda park on the flash.. Sophie on Batwoman.. I'm sure Mary will pop up with some dashing man before the season is done.. Kelly on Supergirl.. While technically not a WOC Maggie sawyer was presented as one on Supergirl.. Everygirl Archie Andrews has dated... George on Nancy Drew.. Jane from Jane the Virgin..Rafael's sister on Jane the Virgin... Bonnie on TVD.. Whatever the Name of Madeline Mantock's character was in the tommorow ppl... I'm probably forgetting some.. But you get my gist

[Keywestclubkid]

Better then the premier I’ll give it that 

[statsgirl]

12 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm hoping Kate brings Mary in on her crusade soon enough, because it's clear that Mary would be a valuable asset.

Waiting till Kate gets seriously injured for the first time ...

[CabotCove]

I hope the stepmother doesnt turn into a real villain, some shadiness is OK. For one, I  hope the family dynamic stays on the show. Two, I was pleasantly surprised to see two Asian American characters in the main cast, CW doesnt have a lot of them. Three, I would like Kate and Mary to still stay [step] sisters. I like blended families

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She's the love interest of a woman.. And so far at least its been opposite sex interacial LI's that have gotten the most guff.

Not sure if it will make much of a difference, maybe it will protect her a bit but not much. Kate is still the lead of her show and there is always pressure for the main romance to not  be an Interracial Relationship [IR].  Batwoman will likely be one of CW's top shows from here on and is getting popular, with that comes more scrutiny on the main romance. On Supergirl, I hear the actress of Maggie wanted out. Alex is now with Kelly, which would be a surprise if it last and thats not even a main romance. Sophie/Kate have the added pressure of being the main romance of the lead character. 

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 I'm sure Mary will pop up with some dashing man before the season is done.. 

Can it be Luke Fox?, I have this sudden crazy idea that, these two kids could be cute together . But we have to wait and see if they click, when they get scenes. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by CabotCove

[Rushmoras]

Frankly, I have nothing to say about this episode. There are some times when you are left speechless and you don't know whether it is a bad or a good thing. Either I was not in the right state of mind to watch it or it was that unremarkable.

What I did not like in this episode were two things:

1) The father. Gah, every time he opens his mouth to be angry about something, I just want to punch him in the face. If that was the intent of his character, then kudos to the writers.

2) If Kate Kane does not go for direct punches of guys two times her size while not in armoured suit, then it's her ex-girlfriend who does it and knocks one out with one hit. I, mean, come on!

3)

Spoiler

You have a knife, Dodgson. Why not use it to kill the doctor? Why slash it, mysteriously drop it, and then try to strangle her, while she takes out her own scalpel and stabs you with it. I, mean, genius!

What I found funny:

Spoiler

So, everyone who is close to Kate and seen Batwoman in action up close puts two and two together that, hmm... that chin looks early familiar... could it be Kate Kane? But, um, on Earth Whatever the Number Is the same is not existent when talking about Supergirl. So, is Kate's worlds humans smarter than Supergirl's? The answer is - yes, they are.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Rushmoras

[Featherhat]

13 hours ago, CabotCove said:

 People will be wishing she and this love story get replaced before she is even given a chance, and these shows are just as quick to want to get rid of Interracial  romances for the lead. At least for now everyone around Kate is related to her, except for Sophie and Luke is a man. Sophie as a Crow agent fits well in the story, even without being a love interest. No reason to get rid of her just yet, if at all. 

I'm not wishing she would be replaced just yet, I'm willing to give it time to develop. My frustration is that they put a lot of unnecessary baggage on it from the get go, knowing they've had problems with that before and even knowing that yes, some of their audience don't like interracial pairings and will use any excuse. I get that dysfunction star crossed lovers is a popular dramatic trend and easy to write, but I'd have preferred either the Academy rejection still hanging over their heads or a husband, not both. It is a slight step up from sister swapping, I'll give them that. I also don't think they've had a lot of chemistry so far, not anti chemistry just not enough for me to like them despite everything. 

I really like Mary and her also hiding the truth about herself role. I really hope she finds out soon, that could be another step in the dynamic between the stepsisters. Kate's going to need her when she gets injured. Luke is still giving me knock off Curtis vibes and that's a character I came to despise, which is one of the reasons I'm not warming to him, sorry Luke. Sophie seems on the cusp of officially finding out, so I bet she won't this early for many reasons. 

Step mother Moira-ing it up? Potentially interesting. RS seems to be thoroughly enjoying herself as Alice and has really grown as an actor. DS is usually better than this but I'm not impressed with him as JK so far. RR settled into the role a bit in this ep. It was all an improvement but the show hasn't clicked for me so far. 

[Trini]

Everything 'not Kate' is making up for Kate, so maybe I will stick with this.

Stepmother being shady - kinda cliché, no?
 

On 10/13/2019 at 9:19 PM, bettername2come said:

They never mentioned the two of them were twins last week did they? Cause that threw me off as I assumed Beth was a slightly younger sister. ...

They didn't. I wish they hadn't confirmed that this week, because the actresses are so visibly different, including age. Thought they were going with them being one or two years apart, which I could roll with, but not twins.
 

On 10/13/2019 at 11:09 PM, Samwise979 said:

Anyone else get the feeling the dad lied about the bone fragments to protect Kate from driving herself crazy searching? 

...

No, I think it's the stepmother, based on her actions at the end.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Trini

[CabotCove]

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I'm not wishing she would be replaced just yet, I'm willing to give it time to develop. shing she would be replaced just yet, I'm willing to give it time to develop. My frustration is that they put a lot of unnecessary baggage on it from the get go, knowing they've had problems with that before and even knowing that yes, some of their audience don't like interracial pairings and will use any excuse. . I get that dysfunction star crossed lovers is a popular dramatic trend and easy to write,

I didnt say you or anyone specific, Im speaking generally what tends to happen to IR romances, anytime there is one.  Baggage or no baggage. Anyway, everyone who watched is allowed their opinion, I dont care much about that. What matters more to me is that the writers/showrunners give this relationship their due and a chance to work out before they think of getting rid of it.

They are the ones who put these big  obstacles when they didnt need to, so they shouldnt chicken out  early because of poor reviews /feedback , they should follow through.  If it doesnt work out then it doesnt but at least they would have tried and given a fair shot. Yeah I do agree, the dysfunctional star crossed trope needs to fade, but I dont think it applies much in Sophie/Katie's situation. To me they are still rootable  and their chemistry is fine in this episode. But I understand  not everyone sees the same thing I do and thats OK. 

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Luke is still giving me knock off Curtis vibes and that's a character I came to despise, which is one of the reasons I'm not warming to him, sorry Luke.

Yeah I thought he was Curtis-ish in the pilot, but I think he got better  in this episode. He showed a more serious side to him in 1x02.  Hope he becomes more and more his own man, with more episodes and character development.

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They didn't. I wish they hadn't confirmed that this week, because the actresses are so visibly different, including age. Thought they were going with them being one or years apart, which I could roll with, but not twins.

At first I was puzzled but then I thought Fraternal Twins, those dont need to look too much alike. And Ruby and Rachel can pass off as sisters and the characters have a good dynamic. So it works for me. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by CabotCove

[UNOSEZ]

6 hours ago, CabotCove said:

Can it be Luke Fox?, I have this sudden crazy idea that, these two kids could be cute together . But we have to wait and see if they click, when they get scenes. 

Oh.. I know that could be good.. And maybe just maybe they do it.. Especially if the Luke character also has a bit more seriousness to him... But like I pointed out before this network.. And maybe just film/TV in general right now seem to not be able to put a WOC with a MOC... I mean in the arrowverse I remember Cisco and Gypsy as the only long term one.. And they still mostly stayed in the background.. Though now he's with Kaylee(?)... Other than that I'm drawing blanks for a major character.. So the odds are the show will pair Mary up with some very nice and handsome ( and I assume capable white actor) 

[CabotCove]

Quote

And maybe just film/TV in general right now seem to not be able to put a WOC with a MOC... I mean in the arrowverse I remember Cisco and Gypsy as the only long term one.. And they still mostly stayed in the background.. Though now he's with Kaylee(?)... 

Not Kaylee, its Kamilla. I think CW/Arrowverse have a number of WOC/MOC, WOC/WOC ,MOC/MOC pairings, so they may not have a problem with Luke/Mary. Can happen, If they are the right fit that is. Example Cisco/Kamilla [The flash], Grace Choi/Anissa [Black lightning], Khalil/Jennifer [Black lightning] well they are not  many😂, so they can always add this one. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by CabotCove

[DavidJSnyder]

When the Wonderland Gang is looking for the knife, are we supposed to take it that Alice/Beth forgot she threw it at Batwoman?  Her mental condition includes losing information like that?

[UNOSEZ]

50 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

Not Kaylee, its Kamilla. I think CW/Arrowverse have a number of WOC/MOC, WOC/WOC ,MOC/MOC pairings, so they may not have a problem with Luke/Mary. Can happen, If they are the right fit that is. Example Cisco/Kamilla [The flash], Grace Choi/Anissa [Black lightning], Khalil/Jennifer [Black lightning] well they are not  many😂, so they can always add this one. 

Yeah.. And two of those are on black lightning.. A show dedicated to actually exploring some ideas about race and injustice etc al.    Also Khalid is dead/ winter soldier and Grace is out in the world eating ppl as a cheetah... So other than the girls Cisco has dated ( don't forget hawkgirl for a hot minute)  most of the WOC have been paired with white partners 

37 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

When the Wonderland Gang is looking for the knife, are we supposed to take it that Alice/Beth forgot she threw it at Batwoman?  Her mental condition includes losing information like that?

I figured heat of battle/ Fog of war and ahead thought ahead lost it elsewhere... Seeing a batperson probably overrode all the other memories 

[Loandbehold]

Speaking of tropes, how come the bad people always aim for the head of the hero(ine), which is the more difficult shot, when they're not wearing any body armor, but in the chest when they are? So, we get Kate getting shot in the chest and is fine b/c of the bat suit. And, what does the henchman do while Kate is looking down, standing still, and smiling that the suit is bulletproof? Nothing. Hey, henchdude, your intended target is just standing there. You know shooting them in the chest is no good; why don't you now shoot them in the head since they're not moving, so it's as easy a shot as the torso. Even if somehow the cowl is also bulletproof (and how much would that weigh - there must be a reason police are not outfitted w/ kevlar head gear and cowls to go along w/ the vests), it will at least stop her so you can get closer and shoot her in the uncovered mouth and chin. That's why you do a double-tap after shooting someone in the torso to make sure the job's done. Hitmen have been doing it since they were able to load more than one bullet at a time in a gun.

[Lunula]

I so want to love this show and I will give a few more episodes, but Ruby Rose doesn't appear to have the range to pull this off. I've only ever seen her one thing in the past (Orange is the New Black) and thought she was fine in that - but wow, this is phenomenally horrible acting (or directing? or writing? all three?). I was trying to keep my mouth shut during E2 and my husband, who is the king of watching horribly bad stuff and enjoying it, laughed out loud (twice) and commented how bad she is. 

Equally bad is that I don't feel any chemistry between her and Sophie. None. Nada. Zip. 

And seriously, Alice is her sister and she didn't recognize her? I'm sorry, but people don't change from mid-teens to late 20s/early 30s SO much that someone couldn't recognize them 15 years later. Especially a sister! Seriously? Now they spring it on us that they are twin sisters and we're supposed to believe that Kate didn't recognize her? Or her father? Really? I'm sorry, but I haven't seen my sister in over 30 years - she died in her mid-teens - and I can guaranfuckingtee that I would recognize her now. Unless you were separated as toddlers, or maybe under age 10'ish, but age 15 to age 30? No way. 

Gonna take a deep breath and give it two more episodes...

[tennisgurl]

I think that was an improvement on the pilot, the acting was better (including Ruby Rose) the story seemed more structured, and it all just seemed less...forced than the pilot was.

I liked the flashbacks showing how badly the surviving Kanes were hurt by the accident, and I am thrilled that everyone pretty much knows what going on. A big problem in the Arrowverse is people not connecting the obvious dots and everyone keeping pointless secrets or taking forever to figure out who is who, but now everyone pretty much knows whats up. Kate and her family know that Alice is Beth, Beth knows that Kate is Batwoman, things are actually moving along nicely with all of these reveals. Give your probable sister a break Alice, she figured out who you were in two episodes! Do you know how freaking long it normally takes Arrowverse characters to figure secret identities out?!

I dont really blame Sophie for telling on Kate meeting Alice, considering Alice is a dangerous domestic terrorist who almost shoved Sophie off a building not too long ago, but I hope that Kate moves on from her. The only way things work out with them is if her husband either turns evil or dies, and that just puts a kind of sad shadow over a possible relationship with them. I would rather they become friends and find peace with their past. Plus, they just have no chemistry, in my opinion. But, at least Kate never cheated on Sophie with her sister!

Mary continues to be my favorite character, and I really want to explore her relationship with Kate some more, they have nice chemistry and Ruby is at her best with her as a scene partner. I hope they explore more of the dynamic between their whole family, especially with Kate and Catherine and Mary from before Kate left. I wonder if young Kate was resentful of her step family and how her dad supposedly "gave up" on Beth and found a new wife and daughter? Of course, now it seems like Catherine has a real sketchy side, so maybe she was right to be suspicious?! So is she a villain who is covering up something? Is she trying to keep Batman from returning so her security business can keep running Gotham? Does she have something more morally grey going on? 

Luke is giving off some later season Curtis vibes, which isnt good, but I did like the scene where he called Kate out on giving people false hope that Batman has returned if she has no desire to actually BE Batman, it was a much needed more serious moment for him. 

The actress playing Alice is clearly having a ball, and I can really appreciate her commitment to her theme. 

[appositival]

15 hours ago, CabotCove said:

At first I was puzzled but then I thought Fraternal Twins, those dont need to look too much alike.

My headcannon is that they are bipaternal.

[Quark]

Beth is by far the most interesting character on this show.

I still think there should be something more to Kate Kane. Is she supposed to be at all charming?

[Kymmi]

I loved this episode - even my non-superhero loving husband wants to keep watching.  As mentioned, the scene with Kate & Alice in the water was really well shot, and somehow carried a lot of emotion.  Those actresses have great chemistry together.  Although why the explosion happened, I don't understand.  A bullet piercing a gas tank in the water would not create anything to spark a fire.  Kate & Mary (that's the step-sister, yes?) was also a great scene.  I suspect the actress that plays the step-sister is one of those rare "has chemistry with everyone, including inanimate objects", what a find she was.  I really felt the heaviness of her line delivery that in normal circumstances, Alice seeing her as a threat would be flattering.  But the reality of someone coming after her with an axe (very well shot) was too much.  I need the Lucus character to insert a bit more humor in the situations.  Loved the card Alice sent with the bat "you have your father's eyes".  Creepy.

[John Potts]

OK, the irony of a father giving up on looking for his daughter and instead looking for... her (not very) secret identity is rather lost when we (and indeed Kate) already know who she is.

If the Crows want to find "Alice"... maybe don't shoot somebody who might know something? Leaving aside any moral considerations!

I see the Crows are just as competent as the GCPD when it comes to holding on to prisoners
(also, most bullets are stopped by a couple of feet of water).

On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 5:53 AM, paulvdb said:

What I want from the flashbacks is to find out how Beth/Alice survived the crash and what happened to her after that. Why did she not go home to her father and sister?

If I was going to speculate, she hits her head in the fall (possibly accounting for where the bone fragments came from) but was "rescued" by somebody with evil intent who nursed her back to health while brainwashing her into being Evil (it would fit with the "Alice" theme if this was the Mad Hatter).

On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 4:57 AM, scarynikki12 said:

The people of Gotham have to be the most willfully ignorant bunch of fools in the world.

Well, at least those who know her well have already figured it out (a lot better than those fools working in The Daily Planet, who can't recognise Superman wearing glasses working for them!)

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 7:45 PM, tennisgurl said:

I dont really blame Sophie for telling on Kate meeting Alice, considering Alice is a dangerous domestic terrorist who almost shoved Sophie off a building not too long ago, but I hope that Kate moves on from her.

Agreed. Her word to a vigilante (and ex-lover) should not supercede her role as an officer of the law.