S02.E05: Kill Me

[sashayshante]

3 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

Since Corey was the first (I believe, and possibly the only) character to actually use the phrase "Monterey 5"

That felt strategic to me, like he was trying to make Jane paranoid. It's probably going to end up that he started out as some kind of mole but ended up falling for Jane.

And so much THIS! to the lazy writing in the Renata/ML scene. At the very least, they should have given Renata a few good comebacks. Especially since ML was criticizing Renata for working and not being home with her kids. I mean, one of ML's sons died mysteriously as a kid and the other turned out to be an abusive rapist. She's not exactly Parent of The Year material.

[Umbelina]

Renata is at a real low point though.  If there was ever a time since her poor upbringing that she was vulnerable?  It was when ML showed up.

She's lost her money.

Her husband betrayed and bankrupted her.

She's about to lose her home.

She's LYING to the police.

She has no real idea what will become of her, but is deathly afraid she will end up poor again.

ML, if anything, probably was brought up with more money/status than Renata was. 

At full strength, first season Renata, pre Perry's death?  She could have probably shut down ML easily.  Now?  Not.

[jeansheridan]

8 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Corey needs to work a side job to afford rent to live in Monterey Bay....dude is delivering GrubHub to the police station....wh

I think this is the best theory this far.

I loved this quiet ep. I liked seeing how people dealt with various forms of anger. How the assistant tried to appease Renata, how Nathan got frustrated with Ed, how Bonnie spoke with her father, how the boys beat the crap out of that bully, how Celeste pulled back her anger when Max (?) called her a bitch.

BTW, I thought her response in that moment was great. Controlled anger. For the parents on this thread, has your kid ever called you a nasty name and how do you respond? I honestly don't think I would respond well. 

The other thing I loved was seeing Nathan working on his marriage, mostly off screen. He is running, got a treadmill, is being supportive at the hospital. This is in contrast to Madeleine is trying but maybe won't take up golf. 

And then Renata's husband who does listen to her while she rants. I don't think he is a potential suicide like someone suggested. I think he is made of tougher stuff. Renata picked him for a reason.

[meep.meep]

I can't help thinking that Celeste telling the twins to say that they want to "stay here" is going to backfire on her.  She should be telling them to say that they want to "stay with Mom."

This is getting more tedious by the episode.  I"ll keep watching, because I'm a dadgum completist, but it's no where as interesting as season 1.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

For the parents on this thread, has your kid ever called you a nasty name and how do you respond? I honestly don't think I would respond well. 

I'm not a parent, but I've had honorary God Children I'm extremely close to, a second parent, a favorite aunt, etc.

Once while visiting one of my very best friends (since 5th grade) who was in an abusive horrible "great on the surface" marriage?  Her son who was about 7 called his mother names he'd heard his father call her, including "stupid" as a prefix.

Carl (not his name) and I were extremely close, he considered me his friend, and he was a very very good kid.  His mother looked as if she was about to cry, but continued cooking, it was probably one of her low points, but still several years until she divorced the husband.

Carl then started laughing and looked at me, repeating and asking me to agree with how much of a stupid bitch his mother was.  I was in shock, but quietly, firmly replied "Apologize to your mother right now."  He refused citing that his dad said it all the time, and so it was true.

I stayed calm, and in a low voice told him that unless he apologized to his mother he and I would no longer be friends.  He again refused, and I just turned my back on him, played with his sister, talked to his mother.  He no longer existed for me.  He lasted about an hour, trying everything to win me back, or even get my attention.

Eventually, he went to his mother and apologized, burst into tears, said he didn't really mean it, and she hugged him and said she knew that.  Then he looked over his shoulder at me.  I met his eyes, and he got the biggest smile, then came to me and stood there.  I hugged him and he started to cry again and said he didn't really mean it, and I told him I knew he didn't, and I knew he would never say anything like that again.

He never did.

ETA I need to add, the first thing I said to him was no, his mother was very smart, very kind, and I was lucky to know her and he was very lucky to have someone like her as a mom.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1vOGwqZjkVqxB

The ice cream scene at about 43.00. 

Pretty good review too, one of the people agrees with me about ML's motives (just watched this, after I posted, ha.)

[Razzberry]

Did I miss something or is that schoolyard bully incredibly insightful?  When hearing that Ziggy and the twins have the same father he immediately says "That means your dad's a rapist!" WTF?  Why would anyone, let alone a kid, draw that conclusion right off the bat?

Another thing that made no sense to me was ML's "generous" offer of joint custody.  So their mother is so bad that you feel the kids are in danger - but only on the weekend now?   During the week the kids aren't in danger?  This should negate her whole argument, but it's just bad writing.

Nathan's like a homeless person, wandering the streets of Monterey mumbling to himself.  Why isn't he working?  At least get a hobby or something.

Still, I'm actually enjoying this season more than the first for some reason.

[Umbelina]

I think the answer to that first part of your post is that "kids have big ears" and really do know far more than parents realize.

The 5 are the talk of the town, so I'm sure they've overheard a lot, and parrot it back at school.

That doesn't mean that they really have an idea what "rapist" even means, other than something bad.

[Snow Fairy]

Coming accros a few episodes of The Good Doctor, ML sometimes acts just like the lead. Sometimes I almost thing she's authistic or something...

[chenoa333]

20 hours ago, ECM1231 said:

Idk if it is the way the episodes are filmed or if I need to adjust the settings on my TV, but I often find it difficult to make out what is happening. My screen is always dark.

Yeah I get that alot too with HBO/NETFLIX. It's annoying AF!

 

20 hours ago, SHD said:

Honestly, I’m kind of worried that he has some offense concerning minors in his past, just because of how quickly he wanted to meet Ziggy.

That's an interesting theory! The cop thing is too obvious. 

 

10 hours ago, Tripper said:

Meryl Streep is going to win major awards for this season.  But, I don't like how she has basically taken over the show

Not to mention that hideous wig she's wearing! 

[ferjy]

3 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

I actually loved this scene because I thought it was quite believable. While Renata is a brilliant business woman, we have seen her come unhinged several times when confronted with real life situations. I know a few business women who are extremely successful in business, but a mess where their own lives are concerned. And I watch enough true crime shows to know that this is often the case, where successful women make mind boggling stupid decisions in their personal lives. 

The fact that Renata is a self made woman, but her husband was able to bankrupt her is one. And really, why would Renata think that a magazine would feature her as a self made successful woman when it is known that she is going through bankruptcy, even if it was caused by her husband? Because she is Renata. 

I love Laura Dern in this role, and love MS as Mary Louise. Just because ML may look like a frumpy 60 something nothing, doesn't mean she isn't smarter and more cunning than any of these women. Age, looks and even education have nothing to do with how smart and cunning someone is. 

But that's the whole point, she's snippy as heck in her personal life regardless of her success in business. I agree with Penman6, I had to roll my eyes. Renata wouldn't have sat there dumbfounded, she would have laced into Mary Louise. Seriously, Renata speechless?

Edited July 8, 2019 by ferjy

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Nathan's like a homeless person, wandering the streets of Monterey mumbling to himself.  Why isn't he working?  At least get a hobby or something.

If we're going to list the people in this city who need therapy Nathan needs to go near the top.  That man has a lot of anger, based on nothing that I can determine.

[Penman61]

8 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

If we're going to list the people in this city who need therapy Nathan needs to go near the top.  That man has a lot of anger, based on nothing that I can determine.

List of people on this show who need therapy:

Celeste
her sons
Renata
Mr. Renata
Maddy
Ed
Nathan
Bonnie
Mary Louise
Bonnie's mom
Bonnie's dad
The principal
The detective
The community theater director
His wife's plastic surgeon
The ice cream vendor
That fucking bridge (talk about enabling!)

Edited July 9, 2019 by Penman61

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'll add Bonnie and Jane, for sure.

(the post above mine has since been edited)

Edited July 9, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[izabella]

I'd add Jane to the list since she is still traumatized from the rape and is having trouble with sex and trust and relationships.  I don't think she wants to cross relationships off her list forever.

[scrb]

6 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I just had something cleared up. I thought Bonnie's mother said to her, "You killed me". I couldn't figure out if she was supposed to be channeling Perry, or implying Bonnie made her have a stroke.

It turns out she said the title of the episode, and wants to die. Awful. For her, obviously, but also for Bonnie who hasn't come to terms with the massive guilt she carries for causing Perry’s death. 

We don't know much about the character but she seems to like to talk, letting people know what she thinks, whether they wanted to listen to her or not.

Presumably she can think, remember, etc. but just can't talk.

So that seems to rob her of a big part of her reason for living.

[LuvMyShows]

6 hours ago, izabella said:

At the same time, it wouldn't hurt Celeste to stop taking Ambien and start taking the boys to therapy.

6 hours ago, CKTV123 said:

And stop picking up random men for rough boinking in the car, or bringing them home

Celeste is smart, yet her behavior is so dangerous and foolhardy.  It's inconsistent, because, yes, she is damaged from what has happened to her, but they haven't shown us enough of the inner devil/angel struggle to account for why she is doing things that are soooo counter-productive, yet she still has her eye on the ball so aware-ly most of the time.  And at the very least, her lawyer would have made damn sure the boys were in therapy.

12 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Poor Jane really needs to get some therapy. She clearly wants to try to get over her trauma from Perry raping her so that she can be intimate with someone, but she's still stuck. 

During the scene on the couch with Corey, what did Jane say?  I think there were two different sentences that she said, but I replayed it, and I still couldn't figure it out.

10 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Am I the only one who dislikes Madeline?  She aggravates me no end, and I have no understanding of why the other women follow her lead with regard to the "accidental" death last season.  

I especially don't understand it now that they realize that they will be committing freaking perjury if they stick to the story!

23 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Renata’s suit was awesome until she stood up and there was that big blue panel down her arse...

Yeah, what on earth was that about?  She has a great figure, it was an awesome suit, but that blue panel made her arse look a mile wide.

22 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I love Ed all the time but especially tonight when he was telling Nathan that they should just live peacefully not liking one another or his "seriously" in the car when Maddie was singing Natural Woman after Aretha.  That right there was good reason for him to divorce her. 

I couldn't believe she was singing in the car like that.  To me, it was sooo minimizing of the difficulties they're having and what she did to him; to sing like that with him is what you do in a carefree situation with someone who really is pretty crazy about you in order to appreciate (or tolerate) that you're doing that.  They aren't there in their relationship, and again it shows that she just thinks Ed is so milquetoast.  Even when she said she wanted to be married to him more than anything (or something like that), that seemed more about the being married (stable home life, good decent man who is a provider) rather than about the man himself.

-----NEXT...I DELETED A QUOTE BY MISTAKE about the singing not being relaxing---

It's actually not supposed to be relaxing.  Bonnie said it was a treatment for sleep apnea, so I looked it up and found that "Singing is a great way to strengthen the muscles in your soft palate and upper throat, which tend to get weaker as you age. In one study, people with mild to moderate Sleep Apnea symptoms saw improvements after a 3-month program of daily singing exercises."

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Another thing that made no sense to me was ML's "generous" offer of joint custody.  So their mother is so bad that you feel the kids are in danger - but only on the weekend now?   During the week the kids aren't in danger?  This should negate her whole argument, but it's just bad writing.

Really, really good point!!!

[Umbelina]

I wonder if ML brought up "joint custody" simply as a ploy to somewhat relax the situation.

I don't think that's how custody court cases work anyway, the judge HAS to do what's best for the children if I understand it correctly, so once they get in front of a judge, ML may look better or something or at least like she isn't against Celeste, just so worried about the children...and her of course.

Who knows?  I think ML's real goal is to get them (all 5) in court, if they perjure themselves, she will have a lot more power, and I think she correctly assumes, at least one of the 5 would not, or would slip up.

[skotnikov]

I wonder if Celecte's husband domestic violence will be a part of her argument in a court. Like ML is responsible for her son's violent tendencies thus boys can't be in her custody. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, skotnikov said:

I wonder if Celecte's husband domestic violence will be a part of her argument in a court. Like ML is responsible for her son's violent tendencies thus boys can't be in her custody. 

That would open the door to questions about how he really died from ML, which is, exactly what I think ML wants from this.  Celeste can't be THAT stupid though, she's a lawyer!  If she "opens that door" then ML will be allowed to fling it all wide open, ditto the questions to her friends, the Monterey 5.  "Did she ever tell you?  Did she tell you she was happy?" etc.

As I said, I think custody hearings are far more informal...more leeway is given, any lawyers here who know for sure?

[izabella]

I think Celeste should hire a PI and find out for sure how ML's other son died.  That might put ML on the defensive and her real self would come out in front of the judge.  We might even find out Perry had something to do with it and has always been violent.

[QQQQ]

14 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed that! I don't mind Nicole using an American accent for Celeste, but I also don't see why she couldn't have used her Australian accent either since it doesn't change anything important about the character

Yeah, her real accent made an appearance multiple times this episode.  

Also, when Celeste was trying to allay her boys' fears about being taken out of the home to live with their grandmother, instead I really wanted her to say, "Guess you better stop calling me a bitch then..." Reason #572 I don't have children 😂

Edited July 9, 2019 by QQQQ

[hoodooznoodooz]

I found one scene interesting. Jane has just told Celeste that she wasn’t able to become physically intimate with Corey, without breaking down and crying. Celeste tells her that she suffered a trauma; it’s going to take time. Jane says that it is surprising that Celeste was still able to enjoy sex with Perry despite everything else that was going on in the marriage. This is such a loaded statement. But Celeste just admits that it was pretty effed up. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by hoodooznoodooz

[darockwilder]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I think Celeste should hire a PI and find out for sure how ML's other son died.  That might put ML on the defensive and her real self would come out in front of the judge.  We might even find out Perry had something to do with it and has always been violent.

Yes, this and we need to find Mary Louise's ex husband and see what he has to say about what that household was like.

[jeansheridan]

33 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

found one scene interesting. Jane has just told Celeste that she wasn’t able to become physically intimate with Corey, without breaking down and crying. Celeste tells her that she suffered a trauma; it’s going to take time. Jan

I liked this moment too. Jane is casually brutal talking about her trauma to the wife of her rapist. They have a deeply weird relationship. And Celeste just...takes it. You can see her absorbing Jane's comment and accepting her own weirdness for loving Perry. 

So then you get Bonnie's parents. Her father clearly loves her mom. He has forgiven her for the violent years. But Bonnie still has those scars and she rather appropriately is angry with him as well. Parents are supposed to protect their children. 

I feel like only Ed has done a good job protecting his daughter. That silent hug when she was just a regular, silent kid was telling. She will pick him. Abigail will pick her mom.

One last thought. Out of all the ladies, I think Jane can handle Mary Louise the best. She knows her truth and she doesn't back down. She's not overly aggressive like Madeline or cocky like Renata. She's direct and calm. She didn't run from her but took the time to look at pictures, to listen. I hope it adds up to something.

[Pachengala]

10 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

BTW, I thought her response in that moment was great. Controlled anger. For the parents on this thread, has your kid ever called you a nasty name and how do you respond? I honestly don't think I would respond well. 

This weekend I asked my four year old to clean something of hers up, and as she went to do it, she said, ‘You’re an asshole.’ My husband had to give her The Lecture because I had to leave the room so she wouldn’t see me laughing. She’s experimenting with language so we’re frequently explaining what’s appropriate and what isn’t, but I have no idea where she picked that one up.

On topic, NK’s acting in that scene gave me literal goosebumps. Give her ALL THE EMMYS. (Laura Dern too.)

[jeansheridan]

36 minutes ago, Pachengala said:

On topic, NK’s acting in that scene gave me literal goosebump

She is outstanding with child actors. She was good in Lion too. She is so alert in her scenes, even when her character is passive like when Renata was having her magazine article meltdown. Celeste clearly did not give a shit but she needed to make sympathetic noises. Kidman is not phoning it in this season.

[Umbelina]

I don't think I've seen any of these actresses ever phone in a performance.  😉

It's a win for ML if she gets the Monterey 5 into a court room and on a witness stand.

She wants the truth about her son's death, I honestly think she wants that more than her grandchildren.

[Cheezwiz]

5 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

It's actually not supposed to be relaxing.  Bonnie said it was a treatment for sleep apnea, so I looked it up and found that "Singing is a great way to strengthen the muscles in your soft palate and upper throat, which tend to get weaker as you age. In one study, people with mild to moderate Sleep Apnea symptoms saw improvements after a 3-month program of daily singing exercises."

I was just joking about the apnea exercise, mainly because I loathe Chicago and think their music is exerable. An exercise like that would send me into a vessel-popping rage. Carry on!

[Dame sans merci]

8 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

-----NEXT...I DELETED A QUOTE BY MISTAKE about the singing not being relaxing---

It's actually not supposed to be relaxing.  Bonnie said it was a treatment for sleep apnea, so I looked it up and found that "Singing is a great way to strengthen the muscles in your soft palate and upper throat, which tend to get weaker as you age. In one study, people with mild to moderate Sleep Apnea symptoms saw improvements after a 3-month program of daily singing exercises."

Daily?! Phew, no wonder Bonnie said it was a cash cow.

[Ms Blue Jay]

6 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I feel like only Ed has done a good job protecting his daughter. That silent hug when she was just a regular, silent kid was telling. She will pick him. Abigail will pick her mom.

Abigail's father is Nathan, though, so that's not really the same situation.

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Abigail's father is Nathan, though, so that's not really the same situation.

That's true but I think of Ed as being there for Abigail since she was 8 or so. He even said he saw her like his own daughter. I  wish the show would give them one scene together because I think Abigail cares about him. She is a bit of a "cool" kid towards all the adults in her life so it doesn't show as much.  It's probably her age.  I think Ed was deeply hurt she knew about the affair and was so casually talking about it. Then again if her mom and Ed split it doesn't impact her all that much. It would completely change Chloe's world. Chloe has a lot more at stake. All the kids have a lot at stake this season really. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by jeansheridan

[teddysmom]

On 7/7/2019 at 10:04 PM, chocolatine said:

On a bright note, I loved the short scene between Chloe and Ed. A lot of lip service is paid to Ed being a good father, but we almost never see him parent Chloe or Chloe being attached to him.

Last season Chloe and Ed did a karaoke together in the living room late at night, it was really cute.  Madeline was trying to get her to bed, and she wanted to stay up and Ed and she were singing "we're gonna stay up all night and not go to school tomorrow". 

 

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

She wants the truth about her son's death, I honestly think she wants that more than her grandchildren.

Here you go Mary Louise: Your son was an abusive asshole, he was kicking the shit out of your daughter in law, Bonnie saw this happening, ran up and pushed Perry off of Celeste and due to the fact that he decided to attack the mother of his children at their grade school,  near a flight of steps, he fell and was impaled on rebar. 

The whole thing is so much bullshit.  Blaming Celeste for his cheating, blaming Jane for Perry raping her, getting a lawyer to go along with this bullshit custody case when no judge in their right mind would allow this. The courts don't break up families because the deceased's mother has a bug up her ass and is delusional about her dickwad son being a wife beater and a rapist. 

At this point I'm watching this only to find out how crazy the ending turns out and in the hope that ML gets her ass handed to her. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

And because Maddie couldn't keep her gossipy mouth shut, Celeste and Jane's sons end up getting suspended from school. There's no reason for any of the boys' classmates to know the circumstances of Ziggy's conception and thus be able to bully him about it. It's cool though that Celeste's boys don't hesitate to defend Ziggy.

Heh, Mary Louise took Renata down with a quickness. None of these women are ready for ML except maybe Bonnie, because she was raised by Elizabeth who is also abusive. Too bad Elizabeth's incapacitated. I really wanted to see her and ML go mano a mano.

Boys: Why is Grandma doing this?
Celeste: Because Grandma is a C U Next Tuesday.

So if Tori and her husband are into cuckolding or have an open relationship, will that enable Ed to let Maddie off the hook? She probably didn't know she was being used in another couple's games.

Quote

But then why would she blatantly antagonize Renata?

IMO she's not self-aware enough to know what she's doing, plus using her mouth as a weapon seems to be her default behavior. She can't control herself.

Quote

Meryl Streep is going to win major awards for this season.

Or she'll at least get nominated a bunch. Which I think was the whole point of her being on the show. She saw all the accolades Nicole got and Nicole had also been primarily a film actress.

Quote

You don't get as high up on the food chain as Rena ta did by letting Harriet Hausfrau get the drop on you like that.

I think Renata's vulnerability was largely because she automatically underestimated ML Mary Louise plays the weak, tired old granny until she murders you with her words. People don't see it coming and even after it happens they still don't believe it.

[gooberfish]

It appears that I’m in disagreement with many posters here.

1) A dead guy. Five women above him. Why in the world wouldn’t cops or mothers assume or seriously consider that he was deliberately pushed? We keep talking about the fact that he was abusive but that was never reported to anyone. And, even if he was, would most people believe that there was a need to violently protect against serious harm  to one of them during that scene when he had no weapon and was outnumbered 5 to 1? And, I’ve read enough detective fiction to be able to grant the detective having spidey sense that the 5 were lying. And, if lying, why not be lying about a murder? It makes complete sense to me that this would be vigorously pursued by the law. The alternative-that he stood in front of the stairs and then slipped? Weird. It was believable that they lied, in my opinion. Bonnie pushed him down the stairs. A crime. 

2) I thought the scene with Renata and Grandma felt very believable.

3) The twins and Ziggy were the bullies in the scene. The “bully” was mean talking, smart alec talking. The others beat him up. Sort of like Perry beating up Celeste when he didn’t like something she said...

4) I think Nicole Kidman looks stunning. I don’t get the fake face thing. 

Other thoughts

The theme now is “women be bad, not just men” and/or role flipping. 

1) Maddy has the affair-the woman not the man, going against stats/probabilities.

2) Celeste is whacking people and pushing people and having sex with strangers. Is a point being made that she always was physically abusive or that it’s a new thing? I’m thinking of the several times that she stated earlier that she and Perry were both violent.

3) Bonnie’s mom was the physically abusive one and the Dad stood by. 

4) Madeline’s the driver (grin)

[teddysmom]

47 minutes ago, gooberfish said:

A dead guy. Five women above him. Why in the world wouldn’t cops or mothers assume or seriously consider that he was deliberately pushed? We keep talking about the fact that he was abusive but that was never reported to anyone. And, even if he was, would most people believe that there was a need to violently protect against serious harm  to one of them during that scene when he had no weapon and was outnumbered 5 to 1? And, I’ve read enough detective fiction to be able to grant the detective having spidey sense that the 5 were lying. And, if lying, why not be lying about a murder? It makes complete sense to me that this would be vigorously pursued by the law. The alternative-that he stood in front of the stairs and then slipped? Weird. It was believable that they lied, in my opinion. Bonnie pushed him down the stairs. A crime. 

Do these cops believe that five smart women conspired to murder someone at a grade school fund raiser out side in front of God and everybody?  

He was kicking a person and as his kicking leg went back and down he misjudged where he was and slipped down the steps. 

That didn't happen but it's not a stretch to think it could have. 

At best it would be involuntary manslaughter.  Bonnie didn't intend to kill Perry, she intended to stop him from killing Celeste. 

[Razzberry]

2 hours ago, gooberfish said:

A dead guy. Five women above him. Why in the world wouldn’t cops or mothers assume or seriously consider that he was deliberately pushed?

Given that these were mothers and "pillars of the community" attending a school fund raiser, there'd really be no reason to suspect foul play.  The darkness and their proximity to a steep staircase at the time was unfortunate, but clearly nothing more than a tragic accident.  😉

[gooberfish]

It doesn’t have to be a “conspiracy” to be murder. Even a few seconds for one of them to decide to push him would qualify as premeditated. The others would then lie to protect the pusher, which actually happened, of course. 

[stagmania]

This one was a little weird for me. Parts of it I liked (Chloe and Ed, Jane and Ziggy, confirmation of Bonnie's past abuse), parts of it I found baffling (Renata's whole suddenly subdued vibe, and wtf was that weird threesome implication at the end with the Affair Guy as if Ed would ever), much of it is starting to fall apart on the logic scale. Primarily:

1. The police pursuing this case to the point of tying it to a custody battle and trying to create a perjury trap. Y'all, I just don't buy it. Let's say Merrin thinks they pushed him? SO FREAKING WHAT. He was an abuser, caught in the act beating his wife, and he got shoved down some stairs when her friends tried to get him to stop. Call it justice and move on; why on earth would a PD be interested in going after a battered wife over this?
2. All of the ladies continuing to talk to Mary Louise. Celeste's lawyer absolutely should have forbid that. I do wish the ice cream throwing scene had stayed in, though. 
3. The entire custody battle makes no sense. I said this last week but this would just never happen with the thin case Mary Louise has, and Celeste's lawyer is out here telling her to take a shitty joint custody deal with this awful woman? She has no proof those boys are being neglected or mistreated in any way and the court does not just yank children away from their loving mother for no reason. It's clearly just a sloppy way back in to the Perry fallout.

On 7/8/2019 at 12:16 PM, Penman61 said:

Not that this show is known for psychological verisimilitude, but I'm calling total lazy writing bullshit on Mary Louise's "awesome takedown" of Renata.

I so did not buy this. Renata would not just sit there and take it while Mary Louise lobbed passive aggressive comments at her. It was like they dialed her down to half this episode and it was very jarring and abrupt after she's been in top form all season.

On 7/8/2019 at 1:45 PM, HollyG said:

If I was Celeste, I'd hire a PI to dig up any/all the skeletons in ML's closet. And you know there are some. Anyone with this sort of manipulative, passive aggressive personality is bound to have made more than a few enemies.

100% and it doesn't track for me that her lawyer isn't on this. She has a son who died in a super shady way! That is totally relevant to her claim to be a more secure guardian.

On 7/8/2019 at 3:40 PM, Cheezwiz said:

Yes, I think this is what she's up to - relentlessly poking and prodding, looking for weak spots. She's convinced her perfect precious son was the victim of a pre-meditated murder by a cabal of women, and she wants someone to crack. If she gets custody of her grandkids in the bargain, then that's icing on the cake for her.

This makes the most sense of Mary Louise's behavior, IMO. If she was really just there to get the boys she wouldn't be interacting with any of them; she'd be keeping her head down to look saintly.

23 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Even when she said she wanted to be married to him more than anything (or something like that), that seemed more about the being married (stable home life, good decent man who is a provider) rather than about the man himself.

I think Ed completely understands this and that's why his choice is so hard. He can stay with her, in the life they built together that he's been pretty happy with, but it will mean truly accepting that she doesn't really love him and what that does to his self-esteem, now with the added indignity of infidelity. Or he can have some respect for himself and demand a more deserving partner, but wreck his life (and Chloe's) in the process. It's a real shit sandwich of a situation and it doesn't feel like Maddie fully appreciates the spot she's put him in. 

21 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I found one scene interesting. Jane has just told Celeste that she wasn’t able to become physically intimate with Corey, without breaking down and crying. Celeste tells her that she suffered a trauma; it’s going to take time. Jane says that it is surprising that Celeste was still able to enjoy sex with Perry despite everything else that was going on in the marriage. This is such a loaded statement. But Celeste just admits that it was pretty effed up. 

I thought that comment from Jane was so offsides, honestly, and reflective of her inability to accept Celeste's truth that Perry never raped her. You can just feel Jane's skepticism, and I don't really blame her given Celeste's initial denial of the abuse, but you can't just shove stuff like that in your friend's face. Celeste not telling her to back off actually made me kind of sad; she just seems to think she deserves to be spoken to that way.

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

And because Maddie couldn't keep her gossipy mouth shut, Celeste and Jane's sons end up getting suspended from school.

That's a reach. First of all Maddie didn't gossip; she spoke about it in her own home with her friend who was directly involved and her daughter overheard her. If anyone gossiped, it was Chloe (though she clearly had good intentions to help Ziggy). Maddie is also not responsible for every single person who finds out now and what they do with the information.

6 hours ago, gooberfish said:

1) A dead guy. Five women above him. Why in the world wouldn’t cops or mothers assume or seriously consider that he was deliberately pushed? We keep talking about the fact that he was abusive but that was never reported to anyone. And, even if he was, would most people believe that there was a need to violently protect against serious harm  to one of them during that scene when he had no weapon and was outnumbered 5 to 1? And, I’ve read enough detective fiction to be able to grant the detective having spidey sense that the 5 were lying. And, if lying, why not be lying about a murder? It makes complete sense to me that this would be vigorously pursued by the law. The alternative-that he stood in front of the stairs and then slipped? Weird. It was believable that they lied, in my opinion. Bonnie pushed him down the stairs. A crime. 

There is a lot wrong with this description. Perry was beating the hell out of Celeste, in front of witnesses, right before he died. She had injuries and bruises all over her. It's not up for debate whether he was an abuser. And Bonnie pushing him would not be viewed as a crime - it was a completely reasonable defense to get him off her friend, who again, he was trying to murder right in front of her, and neither his tumble down the stairs nor his subsequent death was her intention. His death was an accident. Like I said earlier in this post, even if the detective believes one of them pushed Perry and they're all lying, why would they care? It's not like they could have known or planned for him to impale himself on that rebar just so, and there is no physical evidence to suggest anything but a fall, so the police would know it wasn't premeditated even if he was pushed. And I'm supposed to believe they are fired up about this enough to pursue a case they would never ever take to trial because no jury would convict - for a year? It doesn't track.

Oh, P.S. I'm Team Red Herring re: Jane's boyfriend.

Edited July 10, 2019 by stagmania

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

That 's a reach. First of all Maddie didn't gossip; she spoke about it in her own home with her friend who was directly involved and her daughter overheard he r. If anyone gossiped, it was Chloe (though she clea rly had good intentions to help Ziggy). Maddie is also not responsible for every single person who finds out no w and what they do with the information.

Yeah, no, it's not a reach to me. Talking about it where one of her kids could overhear her was exactly her own fault. Maddie stays running her mouth ahead of considering the possible negative consequences. It's an ongoing theme with her.

Quote

Maddie is also not responsible for every single person who finds out no w and what they do with the information.

I did not say she was. She was however directly responsible for Chloe finding out, which led to the boys finding out. That particular road leads back to her. Now who knows how some random kid was able to toss out that Ziggy was the product of rape. Either Chloe or the boys have told other people or maybe Mary Louise set that in action so the boys would look more troubled and Celeste and Jane would look more like bad mothers. But odds are the boys, especially Celeste's sons, would not have learned the truth yet if ever if Maddie had been more careful with her yap flapping, and they wouldn't have felt compelled to get into a fight at school with another kid about it.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Joimiaroxeu

[deirdra]

Someone should push Mary Louise and her itchy wig out of the car as it is going over that damn bridge.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Now who knows how some random kid was able to toss out that Ziggy was the product of rape. Either Chloe or the boys have told other people or maybe Mary Louise set that in action so the boys would look more troubled and Celeste and Jane would look more like bad mothers. But odds are the boys, especially Celeste's sons, would not have learned the truth yet if ever if Maddie had been more careful with her yap flapping, and they wouldn't have felt compelled to get into a fight at school with another kid about it.

I think Mary Louise would have had to have been some kind of super villain to somehow set up a situation where the bully lashed out at Ziggy, and got the twins to come to Ziggy’s aid.  I think she’s very manipulative and not above engaging in ethically questionable actions, but I don’t think she has the ability to set something like this up.  Having said that, I totally agree that Maddie and the other moms need to learn about the concept of discretion.  

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

There is a lot wrong with this description. Perry was beating the hell out of Celeste, in front of witnesses, right before he died. She had injuries and bruises all over her. It's not up for debate whether he was an abuser. And Bonnie pushing him would not be viewed as a crime - it was a completely reasonable defense to get him off her friend, who again, he was trying to murder right in front of her, and neither his tumble down the stairs nor his subsequent death was her intention. His death was an accident. Like I said earlier in this post, even if the detective believes one of them pushed Perry and they're all lying, why would they care? It's not like they could have known or planned for him to impale himself on that rebar just so, and there is no physical evidence to suggest anything but a fall, so the police would know it wasn't premeditated even if he was pushed. And I'm supposed to believe they are fired up about this enough to pursue a case they would never ever take to trial because no jury would convict - for a year? It doesn't track.

Regardless of whether the specific intent was to kill Perry, you can still be held criminally liable for his death.  

As to Mary Louise’s offer to Celeste regarding custody, I presume it was done to simply set out the overall parameters for an eventual settlement.  This way Celeste and her attorney know that Mary Louise will not just be walking away, but they will also know that Mary Louise’s intent here is not to take full custody and shut Celeste out.  I can’t imagine any scenario where Celeste would ever agree to seek addiction treatment, or otherwise take anger management courses (as that would be an implicit admission that Celeste had those problems), but it is not crazy (at least in a normal custody hearing) to imagine a scenario where Celeste agrees to some kind of limited custody for Mary Louise.    

[jenn31]

9 hours ago, gooberfish said:

A dead guy. Five women above him. Why in the world wouldn’t cops or mothers assume or seriously consider that he was deliberately pushed?

Because who would think that under normal circumstances at a function like that? It’s the last thing I would think. My first thought would be that he slipped and fell.

[txhorns79]

1 minute ago, jenn31 said:

Because who would think that under normal circumstances at a function like that? It’s the last thing I would think. My first thought would be that he slipped and fell.

My recollection was that Celeste was pretty disheveled and bruised at the time Perry fell.  I have to think the cops would notice that, and ask why she looked the way she did if this was all just a case where Perry accidentally fell and nothing else was going on.  I'm not saying that would be enough for them to draw a conclusion, but it definitely would make me think the situation wasn't the innocent accident for which it was being portrayed as being. 

[athousandclowns]

56 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Mary Louise would have had to have been some kind of super villain to somehow set up a situation where the bully lashed out at Ziggy, and got the twins to come to Ziggy’s aid.  I think she’s very manipulative and not above engaging in ethically questionable actions, but I don’t think she has the ability to set something like this up.  Having said that, I totally agree that Maddie and the other moms need to learn about the concept of discretion.  

Regardless of whether the specific intent was to kill Perry, you can still be held criminally liable for his death.  

As to Mary Louise’s offer to Celeste regarding custody, I presume it was done to simply set out the overall parameters for an eventual settlement.  This way Celeste and her attorney know that Mary Louise will not just be walking away, but they will also know that Mary Louise’s intent here is not to take full custody and shut Celeste out.  I can’t imagine any scenario where Celeste would ever agree to seek addiction treatment, or otherwise take anger management courses (as that would be an implicit admission that Celeste had those problems), but it is not crazy (at least in a normal custody hearing) to imagine a scenario where Celeste agrees to some kind of limited custody for Mary Louise.    

I’m still confused by this “suing for custody”  because say 15 years ago grandparents had  no rights in California and I don’t think that has changed      . The exception is if the grandparent had custody/ had children living with them for a period of time. .  If there’s a dangerous situation in the home as ML is indicating there would be a process involving taking the kids out via CPS with social worker  investigations etc.  Can I go sue for custody of a niece because I say the mother is unstable?  I had this argument with a friend and he said anyone can sue for anything.   I’m not up to date on custody laws. I do know if parents divorce and one parent decides to not let you see your grandchildren ,you as a grandparent have no rights in California. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

I think Ed completely understands this and that's why his choice is so hard. He can stay with her, in the life they built together that he's been pretty happy with, but it will mean truly accepting that she doesn't really love him and what that does to his self-esteem, now with the added indignity of infidelity. Or he can have some respect for himself and demand a more deserving partner, but wreck his life (and Chloe's) in the process. It's a real shit sandwich of a situation and it doesn't feel like Maddie fully appreciates the spot she's put him in. 

I don't think it's true that Maddie doesn't love him. She loves him, but not the way he loves her. He said repeatedly in S1 that she was his dream girl so I think that he felt lucky that he somehow got the girl who he thought was out of his league. Maddie love him in a more practical way. She wanted someone who would be a good husband and a good father for Abigail aka someone who was NOT Nathan, and that's exactly what she got with Ed. He loves her in a stars in his eyes kind of way and she loves him in a more logical way. I think she loves him for who he is: a nice guy who is a kind husband and father, who makes her laugh and loves her for who she is.

2 hours ago, athousandclowns said:

I’m still confused by this “suing for custody”  because say 15 years ago grandparents had  no rights in California and I don’t think that has changed      . The exception is if the grandparent had custody/ had children living with them for a period of time. .  If there’s a dangerous situation in the home as ML is indicating there would be a process involving taking the kids out via CPS with social worker  investigations etc.  Can I go sue for custody of a niece because I say the mother is unstable?  I had this argument with a friend and he said anyone can sue for anything.   I’m not up to date on custody laws. I do know if parents divorce and one parent decides to not let you see your grandchildren ,you as a grandparent have no rights in California. 

It's true that anyone can sue for anything if they have the time and money to hire a lawyer and file the paperwork (and there are always lawyers willing to take a client's money no matter how futile they think the case is), but unless you can prove that the parent is extremely abusive or neglectful, most judges will not want to remove a child from the biological parent's custody.

I was just discussing this with a friend of mine (who also lives in California) because she had a family member who wanted to give her custody of his kids due to the fact that he had a terminal illness and his girlfriend was a violent drug addict who, among other things had been to jail and tried to stab him. They went to see a lawyer who told them that no judge would take the children away from their mother and give custody to my friend (despite the fact that she also had kids from a previous relationship who she did not have custody of). I have seen and heard so many stories about parents being investigated and having their kids put into foster care, so I was surprised when my friend told me how much info they had documented about the girlfriend's terrible behavior and that it wasn't enough to grant custody of the kids to a responsible family member.

[formergr]

12 hours ago, gooberfish said:

Even a few seconds for one of them to decide to push him would qualify as premeditated. 

No, it would not.

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It's true that anyone can sue for anything if they have the time and money to hire a lawyer and file the paperwork (and there are always lawyers willing to take a client's money no matter how futile they think the case is), but unless you can prove that the parent is extremely abusive or neglectful, most judges will not want to remove a child from the biological parent's custody.

So this supports the theory that ML is just trying to put pressure on everyone to find out the truth about Perry's death. It doesn't matter if she has a realistic chance. And Celeste is so stressed she can't see straight.

I wonder why the show keeps opening on the aftermath of his fall. I know it is partially to show they are all preoccupied with that moment (except Madeline, right? She seems square with it). But are there possibly clues we are missing? Or do I watch too much Westworld? 

[stagmania]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Regardless of whether the specific intent was to kill Perry, you can still be held criminally liable for his death.  

Yes, but to what end? Why would the police be interested in trying to send a battered wife or her friend to prison for protecting themselves and accidentally killing a violent abuser in the process? What DA would want to try that case? What jury would convict?

[teddysmom]

13 hours ago, gooberfish said:

Even a few seconds for one of them to decide to push him would qualify as premeditated.

Goes to state of mind, which the prosecution cannot know.