S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[proserpina65]

14 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Tyrion finding his bother and sister in all this and being upset....when they have plotted against him pretty much his whole life, especially Cersei.  Jaimie may have helped him here and there, but it was always behind Cersei's back, not out in the open 

Jaime was the only member of the family who treated Tyrion well.  Not only well, but he clearly loved Tyrion, and Tyrion loved him.  He never plotted against Tyrion, and, in fact, saved his life (remember the end of Season 4?).

14 hours ago, pivot said:

Arya leaving on her own. I thought she had grown enough to realize how important her family was and would have stayed with one of her siblings.

Arya had seen too much and done too much to live in polite society again.  Her exploring the world was a fitting ending for her.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Time has also not changed the perspective on that final either..still crap

It wasn't great, but it it had zero impact on my enjoyment of the rest of the series.  Unless I can put the final 2 episodes of GOT out of my mind, I will never be able to enjoy the other seasons, especially the more recent ones. 

[VCRTracking]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I thought the Seinfeld finale was a bit awkward, especially before the trial, but the ending made sense, more sense than GOT anyway and the cameos were fun.  

It's just not what I wanted from a Seinfeld episode.

Edited May 20, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, Indi said:

SweetRobbin: Eeerrr... a perfect "the advantages of breastfeeding into your teens" ad.

It's a shame Robin never got a chance to meet Tormund, the only other person who could understand the pros of breastfeeding as a 10yo.

[Bannon]

24 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

The Seinfeld finale was Godfather II compared to this black hole.

[VCRTracking]

For me, Brienne completing Jaime's page in the Book of Brothers was her getting closure on their relationship. Once she closed it she's ready to move on.

[Lady S.]

8 minutes ago, DrSpaceman said:

Also I find it hard to believe the Dothraki and the Unsullied would just let Bran and that group take over after all they have been through in Westeros.  Outside those two groups, is there any army left to defend Westeros?   Couldn't they just take over and rule themselves?

Yeah, it's one thing to say Grey Worm respected Jon's exile but the Dothraki would have killed Jon and Tyrion and continued their rampage long before it got to that dragonpit meeting.

[Efzee]

Sadly, I didn't have many feels during this finale. All just felt kinda "meh" to me.

All I'll say is: well played, Bran. Well, played.

[VCRTracking]

Me last week: "Dany turned evil! Oh no, this is terrible! I'm so bummed out!"

Me this Week: "Dammit I wish we got to see more 'Dark Dany'! She was awesome!"

Edited May 20, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Constantinople]

Worst Final Tribal Council ever

[MadameKillerB]

8 hours ago, Couver said:

I have mostly seen Cersei in Sansa's mannerisms and dress since season 7. Sansa's life experience has left her cold and detached in a way that Margaery never was. Of all the influences in her training I see Margaery the least in Sansa.

I would have liked to have seen her a few years into being QITN. The Northerners are a pain to rule but Sansa has a very dark streak inside her and I can see her becoming a Northern Cersei in time.

oh absolutely, Sansa is closed in a way that Margaery wasn't. 

But the dress seemed like a way for Sansa to reflect her influences. At least, this is my opinion. Doesn't need to be anyone else's. 🙂

Remember, Sansa knows how to design and sew her own dresses. Not saying she made this particular dress. But I think it's not for nothing that her coronation gown has so many nods to not just her family heritage but her life experiences. 

[MrsR]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Bran getting the Iron Throne.

???

Did you go to the kitchen for a beverage and miss an important plot point? Something involving Drogon.

[penelope79]

Okaaaay. Where do I begin?

Considering how much I hated episode 8x05, I had no hopes left for the series finale. In that regard, I haven't been disappointed: as expected, I did not like the series finale AT ALL.

The first question that popped into my mind after the credits: so... the whole deal with Jon being a Targaryen was... what exactly? I am honestly wondering if this was not an elaborate plan of Bran/3ER to become king, after all.  Seriously, why nobody asked Bran WHY he told the truth about Jon in the first place? Apparently, he knew he would become king. Let’s play a little game for a moment:

Option 1) Bran does tell Jon the truth about him being Targaryen.

Consequences: Jon can no longer being intimate with Daenerys (his aunt who he just met and we honestly saw far worse things in this show) and rejects her. He then confesses to Daenerys the same. His rejections, along with the thought that she can lose what’s been the only purpose of her life, undermines her securities. Jon also doesn’t listen to Dany and tells Sansa and Arya the truth, too. Sansa tells Tyrion, who tells Varys, who betrays Daenerys and tries to kill her. Varys’ betrayal leads to Danerys losing (also) her best friend and another dragon. Dany becomes the Mad Queen and kills everyone in King’s Landing. Jon kills her and is sent to the Nightswatch. Bran becomes king of the Seven Six Kingdoms.

Outcome: Jon doesn't become king, although him learning the truth about his lineage seemed to serve EXACTLY this purpose. Instead, he comes back AGAIN to the Nightswatch, exactly where he began, nullifying his whole path as a character. And he also killed the woman he loved.

Option 2) Bran DOESN’T tell Jon the truth about him being Targaryen.

Consequences: Jon is still madly in love with Daenerys, who reciprocates. Even though Sansa and Arya are not Dany’s supporters, since Dany won’t be betrayed by Varys and still has Jon’s love, she doesn’t lose Missandei and still has 2 dragons. With 2 dragons, Dany can fly to the Red Keep and kill Cersei, the Iron Fleet and the Golden Company but WITHOUT becoming the Mad Queen.

Outcome: She marries Jon and they rule together the Seven Kingdoms… or, who knows, even Six. Considering how happy Dany is, probably Jon convinces her to give Sansa what she wants. And Bran is ONLY the 3ER. The end.

Am I really supposed to believe that GRRM and/or D&D wrote this HUGE plot hole thinking nobody would’ve noticed?

Besides, I still believe that if a character ends basically where he begins and his purpose is somewhat erased, his whole journey is pointless. That’s what happened to Jaime Lannister, to Jon Snow and, arguably, to Cersei and Tyrion. Yes, Tyrion is Hand of the King, but where’s the news? He’s already been one (for Joffrey and Dany). Only Sansa and Bran become queen and king, respectively. Arya leaves, which makes sense for her character, but for some reason, I expected more from her, too. Instead, she finds unicorns, is invincible and becomes an explorer. Ok.

How an amazing show with so many potential and many possible (and much satisfying) endings finished its course in such a disappointing, lame note is really beyond me.

Edited May 20, 2019 by penelope79

[RedheadZombie]

14 hours ago, kieyra said:

Also found that weird. There weren’t any people left to feed, much less defend with ships, or build ships, or build brothels. I understand bureaucracy rolls on, but there was no populace left, unless there’s a huge chunk of survivors who fled into the countryside. If so, would have been nice to see them straggling back in.

I assumed that the lords and ladies had resources to run for the hills. It was the poor and resourceless who were forced to seek refuge behind the gates. 

God forbid there’s not a whorehouse. It was probably the first thing to be rebuilt. 

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Me last week: "Dany turned evil! Oh no, this is terrible! I'm so bummed out!"

Me this Week: "Dammit I wish we got to see more 'Dark Dany'! She was awesome!"

I think Evil Dany ruling Westeros with Fire and Blood would have been a better ending than this.  Cersei and Euron ruling also would have been better. 

The ending wasn't bitter sweet, it was totally flavorless, except for the faint taste of vomit in my mouth.  

[proserpina65]

13 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Dany was totally 110% convinced she had freed the people of Westeros. The very same people she burned alive. 

Except for those she thought still needed to be freed, like those in Winterfell.

14 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

AGH!  But she was perfectly willing to listen to other people's opinions about what was good and right and wise until this episode!

And the last episode, and the one before that, too.  She pretty much stopped giving their opinions any weight after Jorah died.

[nilyank]

5 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

God forbid there’s not a whorehouse. It was probably the first thing to be rebuilt. 

Isn't that how the Master of the Coin (Baelish) made his coin?

[Law Mom]

Maybe Drogon burned the Iron Throne and not Jon because he thought chair killed Dany. After all, it was made of knives and there was a knife in her chest, so logical conclusion.

Regarding Tyrion’s crying over Cersei and Jaime, sometimes we mourn not the people themselves, but the possibilities lost. I can imagine that he always had some hope, no matter how unrealistic, that he would be fully loved and accepted, and now that’s gone.

Bran was perfect choice for king because he appears so non-threatening. I think the people needed someone they would not fear, and that is why the title of Bran the Broken is so smart.

I predicted the SC meeting. They needed to show us a “life goes on” scene. I agree that a report about survivors might have been nice, because even though months had passed by the end I still don’t have a grasp on how many died. I did like that Tyrion will be the de facto ruler because this is really where he shines. Not as the Hand for a conqueror, but as a nuts and bolts, rational decision-making type of Hand.

I’m not at all worried about Bronn. He himself pointed out that all the great houses started with people like him. He doesn’t want to embezzle money—he wants to start a legacy. He will be the hardest working person on the SC. He will pay attention and learn. Three generations from now, no one will care if great grandpappy Bronn was a cutthroat. It will be a cute story they laugh about at the Highgarden dinner table.

I took “Duty is the death of love” as a hint to Jon about what to no, not an attempt at making up a proverb.

The Iron Islands is really better off as part of the Six Kingdoms, with their lack of resources.

I loved that Sansa’s dress had weirwood tree leaves. It was so perfectly Northern.

Screw that Nazi Grey Worm and the two SS armies who were only following orders.

Does Cersei’s corpse’s appearance for all of three seconds count toward Emmy qualifications for Lena Headey?

I know this goes back a bit, but I see the Jaime-Brienne relationship as Jaime honestly trying to make a go of it, but only then coming to realize that no one can replace Cersei. Had he not slept with Brienne, I’m not sure he would have gone back.

Satisfying moments: Sansa crowned QITN, Arya sailing West, Ghost reunion, glimpse of Tormund'sw red hair, Jon and the wildlings walking North, the stabbing, the dragon wings scene, Robyn Longbottom, “Sit down, Uncle.”

[proserpina65]

13 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

That is why I am so frustrated with Tyrion's ending. Dany WAS listening to him. She WAS committed to not being Queen of Ashes.

Until Rhaegal and Missandei were killed.  She stopped listening to them completely by then.

13 hours ago, STRIDER1 said:

So what ever happened to the green eyes, brown eyes, blues eyes prophecy thingy for arya?

Maybe she'd already killed someone with green eyes?

[Lady S.]

So ignoring the bigger wtfery in this ep, there were two smaller problems I had. If the WW are truly gone then the Night's Watch has truly lost its real purpose (criminals can be executed and bastards and other outcasts can become septons, maesters or someone else's soldiers) and they're just going to go back to fighting the free folk on the other side of the Wall, with no wildling except Gilly ever being integrated into Westorosi society. I can appreciate Jon/Tormund being endgame rather than Jon being stuck with a job he didn't want and was unsuited for but the circumstances really do render a lot of development pointless.

Speaking of Gilly, with Sam actually becoming a maester, they can never be married and Jon's namesake will be a bastard truly born a bastard. And where is she, back at Horn Hill with the Ladys Tarly or does Sam have her and Sam Jr. stashed somewhere in the wasteland of King's Landing?

[Constantinople]

21 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Me last week: "Aw man, Dany turned evil! This is terrible.  I'm so bummed out."

Me this Week: "Dammit I wish we got to see more 'Dark Dany'! She was awesome!"

I so wanted to dracarys the lords at "Tyrion's trial"  after some of them compared their subjects to horses and dogs.

[MadameKillerB]

I'm not really getting how different things will be now that they've "broken the wheel." Yes, they questioned the crown being passed on through birthright. But what about when Bran wheeled into the small council room asking about the other 2 traditional council spots? So the council setup is still the same? Anyone understand this part? TIA!

Also, it feels shady that GreyWorm is fobbed off with the promise that Jon is "going to the Wall." 

[braziliangirl]

I think I would've liked it if it was more ambiguous: people intended - including the audience - to distrust Bran and thinking he manipulated things so he could be king.

Or Jon planning to kill Dany instead of doing impulsively. Dany ordering Sansa imprisonment and then Jon entering the "game", scheming, pretending to be Team Dany so he could kill her.

Or Jon being King and then some hints that he would also turn crazy. Or reaaally unhappy. 

At least some kind of acknowledgement that things weren't solved ( AS IF Jon would've survived, Don't even mention Tyrion.) and the disputes would still continue. That it would always be some kind of war because power is power. 

[Constantinople]

Part of me wishes they punished Jon by making him King, and insisting he attend every Small Council meeting and hold court regularly to listen to adjudicate disputes between his squabbling nobles.

That would have been more of a punishment than sending him North (though I don't think Jon would make a particularly good king).

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I so wanted to dracarys the lords at "Tyrion's trial"  after some of them compared their subjects to horses and dogs.

I'm surprised none of them mentioned their wives.  

[festivus]

29 minutes ago, Efzee said:

All I'll say is: well played, Bran. Well, played.

Yeah, I have this vision of him in private smirking while stroking a hairless cat. Hopefully this meme will show up somewhere. 

[ShellsandCheese]

27 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Me last week: "Dany turned evil! Oh no, this is terrible! I'm so bummed out!"

Me this Week: "Dammit I wish we got to see more 'Dark Dany'! She was awesome!"

Thank you! Even if she had to die, it all felt so rushed. Give us at least two or three episodes of Dark Dany before she gets the old predictable knife in the heart from her lovah. Also, how did Jon get that knife in her heart. They were standing so close, it would have been impossible to pull it out and knife her from that distance, angle. LOL. 

[catrice2]

34 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

For me, Brienne completing Jaime's page in the Book of Brothers was her getting closure on their relationship. Once she closed it she's ready to move on.

 Maybe I missed it in my haste to fast forward through most of this dumpster fire, but why was she writing it and not his beloved brother?

[kittykat]

30 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

For me, Brienne completing Jaime's page in the Book of Brothers was her getting closure on their relationship. Once she closed it she's ready to move on.

Exactly, she chose duty.

3 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Speaking of Gilly, with Sam actually becoming a maester, they can never be married and Jon's namesake will be a bastard truly born a bastard. And where is she, back at Horn Hill with the Ladys Tarly or does Sam have her and Sam Jr. stashed somewhere in the wasteland of King's Landing?

Sam being GM was definitely a thorn in my side.  It would made more sense to make Ebrose GM but still have Sam as a pupil.  I would assume Gilly is in Horn Hill with his lovely mother and sister.  Someone's got to be happy 

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, ShellsandCheese said:

Thank you! Even if she had to die, it all felt so rushed. Give us at least two or three episodes of Dark Dany before she gets the old predictable knife in the heart from her lovah. Also, how did Jon get that knife in her heart. They were standing so close, it would have been impossible to pull it out and knife her from that distance, angle. LOL. 

Yes, Dark Dany was at least a lot more interesting than Bran the Boring and his trained Imp.  Amazingly, Tyrion's character has become boring.  I'd rather talk with Grand Maester Pycelle (well if not for the dead cat smell) at a cocktail party than Tyrion, at this point.  

[Constantinople]

35 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

For me, Brienne completing Jaime's page in the Book of Brothers was her getting closure on their relationship. Once she closed it she's ready to move on.

Makes sense, though she would have smudged ink all over Jaime's entry when she closed the book before letting the ink dry (unless Westeros has some special quick self-drying ink)

[VCRTracking]

It's funny but I was disappointed by the LOST finale for the same reason I liked the Game of Thrones finale. Yes I liked all the characters on LOST but I was also interested in the mystery of the island. Not to the degree as die hard fans who theorized over every clue but I was intrigued and wanted to know WTF was going on. Sure it was nice seeing the characters we watched together but I wanted answers. Whereas in GoT I wasn't THAT invested in the Night King and the prophesies. TNK was interesting as a looming threat but once he was eliminated I was ready to move on.  The episode "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" made me realize that I primarily love this show and watch it because of the different characters, so I was glad to see most of them survive to the end and moving on to their new lives.

Edited May 20, 2019 by VCRTracking

[catrice2]

10 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Until Rhaegal and Missandei were killed.  She stopped listening to them completely by then.

Maybe she'd already killed someone with green eyes?

 She should   Have stopped listening to him when she came back and realized he was bargaing abt slavery or after casterly rock

[kittykat]

Just now, catrice2 said:

 Maybe I missed it in my haste to fast forward through most of this dumpster fire, but why was she writing it and not his beloved brother?

It's part of the tasks of the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to update the accomplishments of the Knights in the White book.  Jaime brought it up in 4.4 when he gave her Oathkeeper.

[proserpina65]

13 hours ago, rozen said:

She drug his ass across the entire North and she got...an awkward sendoff and probable death to white walkers?

I thought she came from a bit farther south than Winterfell?  If so, she was probably fine.

13 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Dany took a knife to the stomach and died in under twenty seconds

I thought Jon stabbed her in the heart.

13 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Did he? It looked like the knife was below her ribcage when she was lying on the ground. Shows how much I was paying attention, lol.

Depends on the angle of the knife.

13 hours ago, lmsweb said:

On rewatch now - part of Dany's Hitler speech speaks of liberating people all over the world. "From Winterefell to Dorne, from Lannisport to Qarth, from the Summer Isles to the Jade Sea"

Ummmm...liberating people in Winterfell from what? They don't have slavery there. Nor in Lannisport. Slavery is outlawed in the Seven Kingdoms. I can picture Sansa giving Jon a snarky "I told you so" side eye if she'd been there to hear it.

Edit to add: Is that Howland Reed sitting between Bran and Edmure at the little post BBQ sit down?

From their hereditary rulers, the Starks.  There were no slaves in King's Landing, but she clearly believes she liberated the people there.

[Constantinople]

12 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

with Sam actually becoming a maester

Not just a maester, but grand maester, which is quite an accomplishment for a Citadel drop out.

 I presume some time time passed before we see the Little Council meeting, but not so much that Sam could have forged his maester's chain and been made Grand Maester

Must be good to have friends in high places

[Taget]

5 hours ago, Wendy said:

I thought that was the smarter thing Sansa could have requested and it shows how much she has learned in this game of thrones. She is thinking long term. 

Bran is the King but he can't have children so when he dies, there won't be a Stark as a King of the 7th kingdoms, by getting Northern independence now, she assures that no matter who the King is for the other 6th kingdoms, the North will remain independent. 

Bran might live a year, maybe fifty years, but when his time comes as it will, no matter who the next king is, the North remains its own. That is what Sansa has always advocated, that was her main goal and she got it. I like it. 

Saying Bran could have no children was also a dumb whine on her part since the heir would be the most senior (preferably male) relative.  That would either be her or any children she has.  Next to being Queen herself this is the best possible scenario for her.

There is also the issue of what the southern border of her kingdom is.  House Tully pledge their fealty to Robb so she may be expecting two of the seven kingdoms.  And probably has eyes on the Eyrie run by another Tully.

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

In some ways it's worse.

Robert Baratheon at least had enough charisma that men would follow him into battle.

Then there's Bran's reaction to Meera's departure.

People don't want a robot for a king

Tyrion is functionally the king.  Bran is just google.  He himself said the kingdom could use him as a living library.  I expect he'll be constantly warging a bunch of birds one of whom will eventually be made a meal out of by Drogon.  Then no more Bran.

4 hours ago, Giselle said:

They could have called him Bran the Boneless!

Wait.... that title is already taken in TV land.

Ivar the Boneless ruling the Dothraki?  Now that is something I'd want to see!

3 hours ago, Scaeva said:

Everyone having a laugh at Sam's suggestion was one of the bits I liked about the episode. Westeros transitioning to a democracy would be too much of a happy ending for this series, and not really believable at all. Westeros is a crapsack medieval world lacking the necessary cultural foundation for democracy to ever have a shot at success. 

Fans who wanted the series to end with The Republic of Westeros weren't paying attention, as it is not plausible that any lord in the Seven Kingdoms would ever accept it.

I wanted Sam to win.  Because the show had jumped the shark so much that I figured why not just go full camp?

3 hours ago, Blakeston said:

The writers might as well have given all the Starks unicorns that shit cupcakes. It just doesn't fit with what the show used to be.

They are saving that for the spinoff!

46 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I don't particularly think Sansa got what she wanted because I secretly think she wanted the iron throne.  I notice that the subject of northern independence did not come up immediately and Sansa was quick to throw up objections to potential candidates.  

It almost felt like she was waiting for someone to throw her name into the mix.  She didn't want to be embarrassed the way she embarrassed edmure so she didn't want to put herself forward, but I think she was hoping someone would suggest her...or that tyrion's "story" was going to be hers.  

It was only when the matter was pretty much settled and it was clear that Sansa wouldnt take the IT that Sansa put forward the notion of northern independence.

Again not the worst scenario for her.  And hell with Tyrion as hand as I said above she might be able to peel off another Kingdom or two.  Tyrion is the Fredo Corleone of the Lannister family.  Why do people keep putting him in charge of things?

Just now, proserpina65 said:

Except for those she thought still needed to be freed, like those in Winterfell.

And the last episode, and the one before that, too.  She pretty much stopped giving their opinions any weight after Jorah died.

I'll point out Aegon destroyed Harrenhal, the biggest keep/city of it's day. That is what caused virtually everyone else to kneel and spared the Seven Kingdoms from war, strife, and even worse loss of life.  Kings Landing is one city.  And I do not believe Tyrion (who is just saying whatever he can to save his own neck) that she killed more people than the others.  The Lannister war strategy was to kill and starve as many peasants in the Riverlands as possible.  Something Tyrion never had a negative word about.  Even the Starks raped and ravaged the areas they went through.  The Lannisters spent their sweet time raping and pillaging Kings Landing when they took it from Dany's father.  Even Sansa's plan was to besiege the city and induce mass famine to induce a rebellion.  (And no doubt to buy time to backstab Dany)

Dany may have wiped King's Landing but that does not mean she was not on track towards liberating Westeros and hopefully giving them better rulers than they are used to.  The Bronns of the world.

Dany reduces one city to dust.  And that symbolism is what causes other cities to capitulate.  What will make Sansa bend the knee because she will know what happened to Cersei and Kings Landing.  What Sansa herself would probably do if she herself had a dragon.  That is what is going to get cities like Qarth to surrender.

But because of Jon and Tyrion Westeros instead will be plunged into civil wars and constant loss of life over vast territories.

The last two episodes they tried to be manipulative and have Dany do a 360 hoping we'd instantly hate her.  I'll still stick by her because I have seen worse in the other characters around her.  Rest in Peace Mother of Dragons.

[catrice2]

55 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Jaime was the only member of the family who treated Tyrion well.  Not only well, but he clearly loved Tyrion, and Tyrion loved him.  He never plotted against Tyrion, and, in fact, saved his life (remember the end of Season 4?).

Arya had seen too much and done too much to live in polite society again.  Her exploring the world was a fitting ending for her.

 Jamie may have loved and helped him but he never really stood up for him in front of  other people and if Cersei had been in a  Room with the 2 of them and told him to kill him he would have.

And know thank goodness I have not watched all seasons to "remember" the good times. My husband was the Seinfeld watcher and I laughed and felt no pity for him with that ending

Edited May 20, 2019 by catrice2

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

There were no slaves in King's Landing, but she clearly believes she liberated the people there.

Worse, the people of Kings Landing were free men and women who chose to stay there under a tyrant.  The slaves she liberated took control of their own destiny and deposed their baddies as soon as the opportunity presented itself.  

[TaurusRose]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

It's not like Arya is a badass assassin who could have done the job with ease with nobody the wiser... oh wait.

But I couldn't see it because the actor who plays Jon can't act. He just looked vaguely confused. And even if we ignore that, Jon shouldn't need a speech from anyone to realize that what Daenerys had done was beyond the pale.

This is your opinion.  I had no problem seeing the conflict.  I don't want to indulge in the Kit Harington/Jon Snow bashing.  Let's just agree to disagree.

[DarkRaichu]

46 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, it's one thing to say Grey Worm respected Jon's exile but the Dothraki would have killed Jon and Tyrion and continued their rampage long before it got to that dragonpit meeting.

Yes.  And who is going to stop the Dothrakis?  Even the death could not destroy them as more of those Dothrakis appeared on screen compared to 8.05.  The Dothrakis have mastered the re-spawning magic and more would appear as time progressed. 😛

[Lady S.]

16 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

 Maybe I missed it in my haste to fast forward through most of this dumpster fire, but why was she writing it and not his beloved brother?

Presumably because she's in the Kingsguard and it's her duty, not his. I don't think the book is supposed to be filled in by the knights' loved ones outside the Kingsguard.

I kinda liked that Jon stabbing Dany was similar to Ramsay murdering Roose, though I hated everything else about the post-reveal resolution of Jonerys.

8 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

 Jamie may have loved and helped him but he never really stood up for him in front of  other people and if Cersei had been in a  Room with the 2 of them and told him to kill him he would have

According to Oberyn, Jaime had been protecting Tyrion from Cersei since the cradle. And earlier in s4 he was ready to leave Cersei to be Tywin's heir at the Rock and save Tyrion's life. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Lady S.

[proserpina65]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, it made no sense that the Starks had any say in who the next King would be when the North was becoming independent.    It would be like Americans voting in British elections.  

Everyone else had voted by the time Sansa spoke up.  For future Kingsmoots, this would be a problem, but for this one, the North was not yet independent when they agreed to make Bran king.

[MadameKillerB]

1 minute ago, proserpina65 said:

Everyone else had voted by the time Sansa spoke up.  For future Kingsmoots, this would be a problem, but for this one, the North was not yet independent when they agreed to make Bran king.

and after Sansa turned to Bran to say the North will be independent, she didn't say, "aye." She didn't technically give her vote.

[SueB]

Alexander's not wrong, the show definitely has people talking passionately for the last two weeks. Skip to Bottom Line: TL;DR for the short version of this post. 

Mistakes that hurt the finale:
Using the framework that they were always going to have the characters land precisely where they did, I think there are some mistakes they made that exacerbated the situation:
- Dany addresses Dorthraki?  Aren't they dead?  Yeah, that didn't work. Maybe a handful? That took me out of the moment.
- Greyworm's mindset.  Oy.  There needed to be ONE person left that Greyworm respected.  Maybe Ser Davos.  I get the Lord's & Ladies (L&L) were outside of KL, but they were a freaking convenient target for Greyworm to slaughter.  I have to fanwank that Greyworm realized that without the Queen and her Dragon, they would fight a bloody protracted set of wars in freakin' freezing Westros, just for vengeance.  Better to get some ships from these L&Ls and go fight for their Queen's cause in their own homeland. How about just 1 other Unsullied person having a speaking part.  Someone who looks to now be Greyworm's advisor.  But we didn't get those conversations, so ... I had to make it up in my head.
- Math was not their friend. Enough Dorthraki to make a horde. Sansa had King's Landing SURROUNDED? Tens of thousands died in the Battle of Winterfell?  
- Where did that fleet come from to send the Unsullied home?  Was the Iron Fleet only mostly dead? How about throwing an explainer in there that does battle damagement assessment and says they can repair enough ships to to get Greyworm where they want to go. - King's Landing was decimated by Dany/Drogon.  How is there enough left to sit a small council?  I'm just handwaving the tiny pile of rocks on top of Jamie & Cersei because that was ridiculous. 

Leaps of Faith I can take:
- Drogon won't harm a Targaryn.  And he smells in in Jon.  Look, if Dany can walk out of a fire, Drogan knows who Targaryn's are.
- Mental connection between Dany & Drogon.  It's hinted at all along.  So I buy he knew that piece of crap throne was bad for Dany.  So he slagged it.  He's a good boy.

Perspectives I can embrace:
- Bran was a good idea as "King" because after Dragons, having a 'mystical' leader as their protector king is an idea Tyrion could sell.  They could PR the hell out of his story.  Pump up the 'set himself up as bait to kill the Night King' heroism.  He's the wise mystic who only rarely addresses the people but benevolently looks out for them and directs the council towards success.  Rather than get people loyal to a warrior king/queen and all the foibles of a person with so much power, they sell Bran as "beyond the need for power".  So long as crops return and people start to thrive, they'll be happy.  
- Bran's council was made up of misfits (see onlline Breakfast Club meme currently going viriol). With the exception of Bronn (who did have some good moments in the past), they all overcame expectations and all see that the people matter.  Put anyone of them in the position of stopping the slaughter at King's landing and they all (except Bronn) would have tried.

• Bronn likes his own skin too much but he's also shown he can do the right thing. I wouldn't have put him in charge of the money but I can also see him being useful in keeping an eye on making sure money is spent for practical items as well as lofty ideals.
• Samwell Tarly and Ser Davos are the key to future 'better world'. Sam goes right for the drinking water. Ser Davos knows they need ships for commerce and an army to protect them.  Both practical men putting the money where it belongs for the betterment of Westros.
• The knights who train under Ser Brienne will be well trained and live up to the three rules of knighthood - particularly protecting the innocent.  She's got the Battle of Winterfell under her belt. It'll be a legendary force someday.
• Tyrion will spend the rest of his existence trying to help Westros with all the earnestness he's demonstrated.  He really IS clever and he's in his element. 

- Sansa will make a prosperous North. She may adopt an heir someday (and take a consort - maybe) but she's their Queen.  She got them the permanent independence they want. And she'll develop new counselors she can trust.  The North remembers Ned Stark and she'll draw like minded around her.
- Arya's Adventures make sense for now. I'm not sure I see an 'endgame' for her.  She's a person who blends in, she doesn't rule.  But an open-ended 'ending' is okay - at least she's off the path of revenge. 
- Jon Snow got the best ending of all.  He'll be amongst good people, who care for each other and completely out of politics.  He'll find peace, although he'll brood about Danys for a while. 

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: I'm cool with the end state.  I had to make a couple of leaps of faith, fanwank some conversations, and ignore math -- but I'm cool with the general ideas established for the endpoint. 

[MJ Frog]

2 hours ago, Taget said:

And I do not believe Tyrion (who is just saying whatever he can to save his own neck) that she killed more people than the others. 

Maybe, maybe not. But a very conservative estimate would put the number of King's Landing dead at about a quarter of a million people out of a population of a million or so. That's a big body count for Cersei and Tywin to have equalled.

Edited May 20, 2019 by MJ Frog
Clarity.

[DrSpaceman]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

The Seinfeld finale was Godfather II compared to this black hole.

And this was GFIII compared to them both

[DarkRaichu]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, it made no sense that the Starks had any say in who the next King would be when the North was becoming independent.    It would be like Americans voting in British elections.  

Also, as Sansa pointed out, there were thousands of northmen outside of KL ready to revolt.  Meaning out of those lords, she was the only one with the forethought to bring an army to a "peace" negotiation.  Although I have no idea how the North managed to still have 1000s of men after NK attacked Winterfell.  Maybe the North learned the Dothrakis' magic of re-spawning

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

Hard disagree.  She has always held Jon's opinions in high regard, and...

He was screaming at and chastising her moments before she said it and she didn't threaten or silence him.  She spoke to him as an equal partner. 

He wasn't screaming, although I'll agree with the chastising bit.  But her opinion would be the ultimate one, and eventually he'd disagree with something.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because she sounded like an absolute tyrant to me.

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Why not have Brienne be Master of Whispers instead of Lord Commander of the Kingsguard?

Because honorable Brienne would be the worst person to put in charge of rumors and disinformation.

[Bryce Lynch]

22 minutes ago, kittykat said:

It's part of the tasks of the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to update the accomplishments of the Knights in the White book.  Jaime brought it up in 4.4 when he gave her Oathkeeper.

So is Brienne Lord Commander of the Kingsguard?  I guess Bran didn't check her references from Renly, though I guess that wouldn't be possible.  

Poor Tormund.  Well, I guess there is always Jon.