S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[MadameKillerB]

4 minutes ago, RealityCreator said:

Tyrion knew, Sansa knew, Arya knew, and Bran knew, so quite a few people sitting in that council deciding who would become king knew...and none of them said a word about it.

I was thinking about this too. Did any of Varys' messages get out? We'll never know.

[RealityCreator]

6 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

I was thinking about this too. Did any of Varys' messages get out? We'll never know.

Yep.  Another major plot point just dropped.  But at the end it didn't really matter if Varys' messages got out because Sam also knew (forgot to include him in my previous post), *and* he had proof - and he said nothing at the council.  Maddening.  We could have had basically the same ending even if Jon hadn't been a Targaryen.  So lame. 

[xtwheeler]

On 5/19/2019 at 11:22 PM, pfk505 said:

I sincerely hope we get better than this in the books. 

Fixed that for you. 

The ending was so underwhelming because the show had such moments of brilliance. This was a finale for a show like Once Upon A Time. Little bloodshed (of major characters), everything wrapped in a tidy bow. 

I really wish that riding out of King's Landing, Nymeria popped back up, just casually taking her place at Arya's side. 

It sucks, because there were so many things that were so important that never got addressed. Mirri Maz Durr's prophecy, The Prince Who Was Promised, Cersie's prophecy--having a building collapse on her and Jamie doesn't narratively satisfy the Valonqar prophecy. Could all the Starks warg? Who knows. "There Must Always Be A Stark at Winterfell" - - was there a reason, or just an obnoxious house saying like "Lannister Always Pay Their Debts." And there were a lot of times there were no Starks at Winterfell. The set up in the crypt with their own statues? 

Now I'm just ranting. 

[Raachel2008]

On 5/20/2019 at 9:30 PM, Kate47 said:

KL is covered in snow

Ashes. Not snow, but ashes. A couple of years there was a fire in my block and the ashes were unbelievably white under the right light.

20 hours ago, rmontro said:

As much as I would like to see the Unsullied take out some Northerners, you have to remember the Notherners have plot protection.  Same with Sansa.

Abandoning his duty wouldn't be the Stark way though.  Ned beheaded deserters.  He's probably just escorting them home.  I know how you feel though, I actually choose to ignore the entire last three episodes.

Please, the lands beyond the Wall ARE the Free Folk home. They don't need anyone escorting them. Jon was totally joining them and coming back to the home he was the happiest: the true North.

This is one the most stupid things this finale gave us. Grey Worm could have killed Jon, I assume he didn't because he was afraid of Drogon, or knew Jon was a Targ, or was somehow afraid of the North + Vale + whoever, or wanted a big spectacle or wanted something he didn't know what was exactly (my personal understading). Grey Worm was never dumb, though, there is zero reason for him to see being Lord Commande as punishment or even believe that Jon would stay there. Yes, D&D say he was made Lord Commander. So what? He was made Lord Commander and left. Simple like that.

Also, I need to mention how Tyrion wasn't suffering leading the Council, but had no troubles sending the guy who saved his live - and everybody else's lives - to an awful job that doesn't even need to exist and the farthest point of the continent.

Also, I agree with everyone that the whole "Jon is a Tagaryen thing" amounted to nothing, it was just another thing on the pile of stuff making Dany even more greedy about power. If and when George finishes the books, maybe it will be explored.

So basicaly, yeah, for me Jon is living happily with the Free Folk, hanging around with Ghost and Tormund, being nice to the freeyounglings and finding some company in  a cave.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Raachel2008

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, xtwheeler said:

Cersie's prophecy--having a building collapse on her and Jamie doesn't narratively satisfy the Valonqar prophecy.

There is no mention of the valonqar in the show.  They may have excised that part of the prophesy because they were already looking ahead to having this sort of end for Cersei.

[Raachel2008]

5 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

There is no mention of the valonqar in the show.  They may have excised that part of the prophesy because they were already looking ahead to having this sort of end for Cersei.

And I think that even in the books it will be Jaime killing Cersei but dying with her.

[Kate47]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Ashes. Not snow, but ashes. A couple of years there was a fire in my block and the ashes were unbelievably white under the right light.

My apologies, I was saying that to me it looked like snow and I was super confused about the abrupt weather changes until it was pointed out to me that it was ash.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Yes, D&D say he was made Lord Commander. So what? He was made Lord Commander and left. Simple like that.

So Jon deserted his post?  The same thing that Ned executed men for?  Seems a little out of character for him.  Maybe from everything he's seen, his perspectives have changed, and doesn't think such things are important anymore.  I could believe that, but I'd like some explanation of what happened there exactly.  Because why agree to take the Lord Commander position if you're just going to leave?  Jon's ending seems rather vague.

By the way, the ashes?  I agree it was probably ashes, but it might have been snow.  Or snow mixed with ashes.  Might have been.

[rmontro]

10 hours ago, recursEv said:

Cut to a close shot of Drogon's eyes, who is now inhabited by Bran.  Drogon picks up Daenerys' dead body and flies east over several long takes.  He flies past Essos and south of the Dothraki Sea to the ruined island of Valyria.  At the center there is a dormant volcano which destroyed Valyria hundreds of years ago.  Drogon drops Daenerys' body into the volcano.

First a low rumbling, then a massive explosion of lava and fire as the volcano is reactivated.  The surrounding areas are incinerated.  As rock and structure burn away, a hidden cave is uncovered and is revealed to have hundreds of dragon eggs.  The lava pours over the eggs and they all start to move, as if hatching.

Cut back to Bran as he finishes his journey as Drogon.  There is an evil smile on his face.

I like all these evil Bran theories.  If Bran could find Drogon, and could warg into him, and found other dragons to use besides, that basically sets him up as a new Targaryen.  A ruler with dragons under his control.

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/3gD9va4

best recap ever.

🤣🤣🤣🤣 Love this! Thank you. This is more what the Dragonpit scene should have been like. 

[GraceK]

Am I the only one who found Tyrion’s speech to Jon extremely uncomfortable? He admits the Khals would have done worse things to her, he admits SLAVERY IS EVIL and that the slavers are evil men, he admits that crucifying CHILDREN is evil.... he says that everywhere Dany goes, evil men die and she gets more powerful. What does that sound like? Doesn’t that sound like a man afraid of a woman’s power???? He literally says he thought he could control her, but realizes that was fanciful. 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️ He’s upset she killed his evil family and doesn’t love him back. He even says he loves her, just not as successfully as Jon did. This whole argument to Jon is so misogynistic and riddled with fear. She’s too powerful to be controlled and has finally stopped listening to his advice. Now she has to be killed. Very convenient. And once she’s dead, Tyrion ends up exactly where’s he’s comfortable. Ruling KL, his best bud Bronn in power with him, making dick jokes, with all his buddies. He’s exactly where he always wanted to be. Even Jaime gets a nice edit in his white book, and the wheel keeps spinning. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by GraceK

[Bill1978]

5 hours ago, Kate47 said:

Ashes. Not snow, but ashes.

The funny thing is while I was watching I had closed captioning on. At first I was like that's ash every where and then when we saw Drogon pop out of the ash I thought hmm maybe it's finally snowing. I;m confused. And then the closed captions popped up with #sound of crunching snow# so I'm like well that answers that but then apparently a 'few weeks later' there is no snow, so I went back to it must have been ash.

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

Am I the only one who found Tyrion’s speech to Jon extremely uncomfortable? He admits the Khals would have done worse things to her, he admits SLAVERY IS EVIL and that the slavers are evil men, he admits that crucifying CHILDREN is evil.... he says that everywhere Dany goes, evil men die and she gets more powerful. What does that sound like? Doesn’t that sound like a man afraid of a woman’s power???? He literally says he thought he could control her, but realizes that was fanciful.

I dunno about "control," but Tyrion and Varys always justified their support of Dany by saying that Tyrion's advice would check her worst impulses, as in 7x05:

Tyrion: Daenerys is not her father.

Varys: And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen.

And in 7x07:

Cersei: You said she'd destroy King's Landing.

Tyrion: She knows herself. She chose an advisor who would check her worst impulses, instead of feeding them. That's the difference between you.

They both eventually realize this is bullshit, of course, in 8x04:

Tyrion (about Jon): He could temper her worst impulses.

Varys: As you have? 

So it doesn't surprise me that in 8x06, Tyrion sadly concludes "It was vanity to think I could guide her."

Quote

He’s upset she killed his evil family and doesn’t love him back. 

Tyrion was upset about Dany slaughtering a city, which is why he tossed away his Hand pin. Tyrion was fine with Dany becoming queen in 8x05 even when he realized that that would mean that Jaime and Cersei would die unless he managed to sneak them out of the city. Nor do I see any resentment or anger from Tyrion that Dany doesn't return his affections. He never even mentioned it until 8x06.

Quote

She’s too powerful to be controlled and has finally stopped listening to his advice.

It's not Dany's power that Tyrion feared, it's how she used it. Tyrion was perfectly fine with Dany having dragons and armies as long as she used them in service of noble ends.

[benteen]

15 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Sure, because these producers would never allow for an action that wasn't perfectly telescoped to viewers beforehand.

Truly, though, I hope you are correct. In my own, off screen world, Jon woke up and realized how badly he and Dany were both used to dispatch the NK, and then Cersei, and finally he was used to dispatch Dany (Tyrion could have done the deed himself if he hadn't chosen to so publicly quit his office) and decided to ride off with Ghost and Tormond and let 7K take care of their own messes.

We were promised a bittersweet ending, but unless you're a big Sansa, Bronn, Bran and Tyrion booster, I don't see any sweet. 

In the end, nothing got better for the "little people." If anything the small council became even less representative. Iirc, Pycelle, Varys, Baelish all came from nothing, for the most part. On the new council, only Davos and Bronn ever had to make their own way in the world.

What I see is a dystopian sci-fi scenario that's been presented into a fantasy setting. That's not subversion, that's bait and switch. Fantasy exists because it IS fantasy.

It's still great TV, but at this point I feel like the kid in The Princess Bride: Jesus, grandpa, why'd you read me this story?

Baelish might have been a "rags to riches" story but he was still the father of a Lord, which means more than being a landed knight in Westeros.  He's the worst kind of "rags to riches" as all he cared about was his own power, no matter how badly that made the Realm suffer.  He's not the kind of "little person" you want in power.  Do we actually know if Pycelle came from nothing?  I don't remember anything about his background being mentioned prior to when he became Grand Maester.  Varys was definitely a case of a guy who worked his way up from the streets, an immigrant who accomplished a great deal.

Brienne came from a noble house but had to overcome the sexism of her society.  Pod came a poor branch of a more noble house and did good for himself.

[YaddaYadda]

12 hours ago, RealityCreator said:

Tyrion knew, Sansa knew, Arya knew, Bran knew, and Sam knew - and had proof - so quite a few people sitting in that council deciding who would become king knew...and none of them said a word about it.

ETA:  Sam in the list of people who knew Jon's true identity/heritage.

It's interesting how Jon's paternity was used against Dany, but at the end, his faithless siblings and friend didn't cared a whiff about his claim.

The whole thing was as lame as lame gets.

Edited May 22, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[Eyes High]

Looking back at AGOT, there was this interesting exchange between Jon and Tyrion at the Wall:

Quote

"I don't know what message to send to Bran. Help him, Tyrion."

"What help could I give him? I am no maester, to ease his pain. I have no spells to give him back his legs."

"You gave me help when I needed it," Jon Snow said.

"I gave you nothing," Tyrion said. "Words."

"Then give your words to Bran too."

"You're asking a lame man to teach a cripple how to dance," Tyrion said. "However sincere the lesson, the result is likely to be grotesque. Still, I know what it is to love a brother, Lord Snow. I will give Bran whatever small help is in my power."

Not much comes of it in AGOT, other than Tyrion designing the saddle for Bran (...and getting attacked by the direwolves, which doesn't make a lot of sense in light of the endgame), but maybe it's a subtle reference to Tyrion ending up helping Bran as his Hand.

...And of course it now occurs to me that the event that kicked off the whole war was the person who became the endgame Hand being accused of trying to murder the person who became the endgame King.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Nor do I see any resentment or anger from Tyrion that Dany doesn't return his affections. He never even mentioned it until 8x06.

Can anyone explain the point of that comment to me? I never saw Tyrion as being in love with Dany before. There was the weirdness of him staring at her cabin door during boatsex, but he bounced back to debate the benefits of her marrying Jon. Did they tell Dinklage he was supposed to play in love before? I'm fairly certain he could have pulled it off. 

[Eyes High]

12 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Can anyone explain the point of that comment to me? I never saw Tyrion as being in love with Dany before. There was the weirdness of him staring at her cabin door during boatsex, but he bounced back to debate the benefits of her marrying Jon. Did they tell Dinklage he was supposed to play in love before? I'm fairly certain he could have pulled it off. 

There's really not much in the show itself, other than Cersei making a comment in 7x07 about how Dany is Tyrion's sort of woman. Most of it's from the original S7 leaked script outlines, where it's more obvious (Bronn needling Tyrion about being in love with Dany, for example) and from Peter Dinklage's interviews: he said before S7 that Tyrion was smitten with Dany, and last fall he said that Tyrion is in love with Dany or thinks he is. I assume that D&D were giving him notes to play him that way; certainly it seemed that way in 6x10 when Dany names him Hand.

Back after S7, when there was that Tyrion betrayal/trial spoiler floating around, there was a lot of speculation that Tyrion's unrequited love for Dany and jealousy over Jon/Dany would be what led to his betrayal. (And to be fair, in the original outline, Tyrion fell in unrequited love with someone in love with Jon and this led to a "deadly rivalry," although it was Arya and not Dany, so it wasn't the craziest thing.)  Of course, none of that ended up happening.

The weird thing is that Tyrion being in love with Dany really didn't change anything about how events unfolded in S8. He never openly disapproved of or interfered with her relationship with Jon (he even supported a marriage between them). He never disparaged or undermined Jon out of jealousy (even vouching for his courage before the skeptical Northern lords). There are other reasons to explain why Tyrion believed in and supported Dany for so long; sure, he stuck by her, but Varys did too until 8x04, and Varys wasn't in love with her. And then of course Sansa accuses Tyrion of being afraid of Dany in 8x04, and Tyrion doesn't deny it. So I'm not really sure what the point was, except perhaps as a nod to the books, where I expect Tyrion will fall in love with Dany as well.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Eyes High

[domina89]

I honestly wish I could just let this go, but the more I think about Tyrion orchestrating Jon into being the fall guy instead of having the guts to take Dany out himself, the angrier I get.  He's mad at Dany for torching KL and for the death of his siblings (even though they actually died due to their own bad choices), so he works it out to take out both Jon and Dany and set himself up nicely in the process.  I am almost to the point of believing the conversation he had with Bran while at Winterfell were the two of them plotting.  Bran knew what Dany was going to do, he saw it ahead of time and we know this because we saw glimpses of KL in his visions.  And then NO ONE brings up the fact that Jon is the rightful heir to the throne during the impromptu king selection even though at least 5 of them present knew about it?  I wish Jon had just thrown his lot in with Dany and taken his chances- at least she wanted him by her side, unlike his ungrateful "friends" and siblings.

And on another note, if the Night's Watch still exists, shouldn't Sam be forced to return as well?  I seem to recall him taking some vows in front of a heart tree...

[MV713]

On 5/19/2019 at 10:41 PM, jcin617 said:

Well, he was the only one who could stop Dany, I suppose.     He's probably the only one Drogon would let through.

guessing that eventually Drogon will find his way to Jon, as the last remaining Targaryan.

[MV713]

16 hours ago, RealityCreator said:

Yep.  Another major plot point just dropped.  But at the end it didn't really matter if Varys' messages got out because Sam also knew (forgot to include him in my previous post), *and* he had proof - and he said nothing at the council.  Maddening.  We could have had basically the same ending even if Jon hadn't been a Targaryen.  So lame. 

maybe it was a way that they were trying to protect Jon - by concealing his true identity.  Because maybe that would have gotten him killed, by association with the "mad" Targaryens. They would have never accepted him as a king now.  So to protect him, in essence, by banishing him to the Wall yet again.  No job, no one who cares.

[MadameKillerB]

all this talk of snow/ash reminds me: I loved that shot of Drogon shaking off the ashes and clearing Jon for entry. I'm guessing Drogon liked any heat left in the ground and snuggled down in there.

[Tryangle]

I'll suggest it's a combination of ash and snow in the aftermath of KL's destruction - a meteorologist's nightmare, to be sure.

On the Dragonpit scenes, we have I think four new, unnamed faces (plus the Dorne fella), I guess the show put them in as filler for the 'other great houses', but wonder if they represent any groups of significance? One to fill in for whoever moves up in the Westerlands after the Lannisters fell, one maybe for another Northern house, one for the Stormlands (as Gendry is newly instated)? And one for the Reach (even though Sam may have that role for the time being)?

[catrice2]

Bran and tyrion planned some of this together in the long night. Bran can see the future and some things he knew would happen. He just had to manipulate tyrion and tyrion did the rest...including getting rid of Varys..that is my story and I am sticking to it!  It is still ridiculous because if the unknown like Drogon's reaction

[SNeaker]

12 hours ago, GraceK said:

Am I the only one who found Tyrion’s speech to Jon extremely uncomfortable? He admits the Khals would have done worse things to her, he admits SLAVERY IS EVIL and that the slavers are evil men, he admits that crucifying CHILDREN is evil.... he says that everywhere Dany goes, evil men die and she gets more powerful. What does that sound like? Doesn’t that sound like a man afraid of a woman’s power???? He literally says he thought he could control her, but realizes that was fanciful. 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️ He’s upset she killed his evil family and doesn’t love him back. He even says he loves her, just not as successfully as Jon did. This whole argument to Jon is so misogynistic and riddled with fear. She’s too powerful to be controlled and has finally stopped listening to his advice. Now she has to be killed. Very convenient. And once she’s dead, Tyrion ends up exactly where’s he’s comfortable. Ruling KL, his best bud Bronn in power with him, making dick jokes, with all his buddies. He’s exactly where he always wanted to be. Even Jaime gets a nice edit in his white book, and the wheel keeps spinning. 

Bingo. I get deeply uncomfortable every time someone says "Dany was always like this, she was just kept in check by her advisors and now they're all gone or she doesn't trust them anymore."

Her male advisors. The scary emotional woman had to be kept in check by her coolheaded male advisors. That is what that means.

(It's also not accurate,

[FemmyV]

13 hours ago, GraceK said:

And once she’s dead, Tyrion ends up exactly where’s he’s comfortable. Ruling KL, his best bud Bronn in power with him, making dick jokes, with all his buddies. He’s exactly where he always wanted to be. Even Jaime gets a nice edit in his white book, and the wheel keeps spinning. 

And this is why I call the story a bait and switch. Martin and his press about subverting fantasy tropes? GoT is not a fantasy, but a dystopian sc-fi dressed up in fantasy settings.

In the end, hardly anything has changed.

Instead of a barely-attentive king who spends his days getting drunk and getting laid, we will have a barely-attentive king who spends his days in visions of past events and, apparently, tracking Drogon. Or trying to. Two parties of the otherwise well-intentioned small council will be serving their own interest (yes, Tyrion will serve the Realm, but don't kid yourself into thinking his own interests will not be a factor) and there will be plenty of bickering on the way to getting things done. The master of coin will still have the means to blackmail everyone.

And the guy who saved all of their asses winds up in exile, while the "good guys" who played him are King, Hand, and Queen in the North. As happy as Jon would be to go and stay North, Winterfell is no longer an option for summer vacation. When he dies, his bones won't wind up in the crypt with his Stark ancestors and family; he will die in anonymity, beyond the wall. Sam's cute book? I wonder how it's going to explain, for posterity, that one hero got knifed in the belly, and the other got talked into doing the deed, and was exiled?

Dystopia. Brilliant, but it's likely to have a long-lasting effect on the fantasy genre, as copycats come in. And they will. The only thing that may hold that back for a little while is the amount of time it takes for more people to realize how the hero got played.

Edited May 22, 2019 by FemmyV

[izabella]

13 hours ago, GraceK said:

And once she’s dead, Tyrion ends up exactly where’s he’s comfortable. Ruling KL, his best bud Bronn in power with him, making dick jokes, with all his buddies. He’s exactly where he always wanted to be. Even Jaime gets a nice edit in his white book, and the wheel keeps spinning. 

I hated this as an ending.  Tyrion should have been torched for releasing Jaime.  Bronn should be nowhere except in whatever castle he had already been given way back, or maybe running a brothel.  And Jaime should have killed Cersei, like Jon killed Dany, and then died in the rubble next to her.

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, MV713 said:

maybe it was a way that they were trying to protect Jon - by concealing his true identity.  Because maybe that would have gotten him killed, by association with the "mad" Targaryens. They would have never accepted him as a king now.  So to protect him, in essence, by banishing him to the Wall yet again.  No job, no one who cares.

I like how everyone is trying to make sense of this tripe. If we have to try and explain to each other and ourselves what was written, then it means D&D have failed at writing 101. 

If I'm working on a project and the people in my office don't get it, then I must have done something wrong. 

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, domina89 said:

And on another note, if the Night's Watch still exists, shouldn't Sam be forced to return as well?  I seem to recall him taking some vows in front of a heart tree...

Stannis offered to legitmize Jon and make him Lord of Winterfell, which implies that kings can release a man from his Night's Watch vows (perhaps indirectly, by pardoning him for desertion or by not imposing any punishment for deserting).

Perhaps something similar happened with Sam

But they should have explained it.

[FemmyV]

19 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I like how everyone is trying to make sense of this tripe. If we have to try and explain to each other and ourselves what was written, then it means D&D have failed at writing 101.

I'm not sure if they failed, or if they were just too chickenshit to put it in peoples' faces, how badly Dany and Jon were betrayed and played, respectively.

Edited May 22, 2019 by FemmyV

[catrice2]

I have just 2 seasons and some clips to spot inconsistencies...I pity those who have 8 years of WTF?? to think through

[MadameKillerB]

43 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I like how everyone is trying to make sense of this tripe. If we have to try and explain to each other and ourselves what was written, then it means D&D have failed at writing 101. 

I think they just didn't give a shit anymore. 

[domina89]

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

Bran and tyrion planned some of this together in the long night. Bran can see the future and some things he knew would happen. He just had to manipulate tyrion and tyrion did the rest...including getting rid of Varys..that is my story and I am sticking to it!  It is still ridiculous because if the unknown like Drogon's reaction

That's why they needed Jon, because Drogon would have roasted anyone else.  Tyrion and Bran both knew this.  Unfortunately Tyrion guilted (or frightened, maybe?) Jon into playing his part.  I have to hand it to them, they pulled off a near perfect coup.  Westeros deserves them.

[ShellsandCheese]

4 hours ago, MV713 said:

guessing that eventually Drogon will find his way to Jon, as the last remaining Targaryan.

I doubt this. Drogon was Dany's not Jon's. He's not going to find his way back to the person who killed his mother. The books cover pretty good detail the fact that the Targaryen's fought each other and each other's dragons all the time. The dragons are not tied to the Targaryen bloodline - they are tied to a particular rider. Another reason why, I think the show should have had Jon Snow torched by Drogon. He just wiped out a whole city - he could have melted the Iron Throne and Jon without breaking a sweat. 

[Tryangle]

4 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I doubt this. Drogon was Dany's not Jon's. He's not going to find his way back to the person who killed his mother. The books cover pretty good detail the fact that the Targaryen's fought each other and each other's dragons all the time. The dragons are not tied to the Targaryen bloodline - they are tied to a particular rider. Another reason why, I think the show should have had Jon Snow torched by Drogon. He just wiped out a whole city - he could have melted the Iron Throne and Jon without breaking a sweat. 

Yeah, it's not exactly Chronicles of Riddick's "Keep what you Kill", but Drogon's reaction suggested something similar when he looked at Jon then moved on.

[Jextella]

 

 

 

On 5/20/2019 at 11:59 AM, benteen said:

I felt like the War against the White Walkers ultimately meant nothing three weeks ago and I feel like Jon's Targaryen heritage meant nothing in the finale. 

I binged S1-S7 right before the airing of S8 and experienced things back to back.

I really did like the final season and the ending - contrary to most - but it was rushed.

Near as I can tell, the story had 4 main stories that converged - Cersei's, Dany's, the Stark Family's, and the Knight King's.  Each had endings that I felt were appropriate to the characters - and to what the storytellers presented as time went on.

However, it wasn't balanced properly.  There was too much time/weight put on the Knight King story relative to the other 3 stories.  And the grandness of the S8E3 just added to it.  Nothing that followed could be as threatening as the Knight King - not even a dragon burning a city and its citizens to the ground. 

I think we needed another season to build Cersei and Dany up to be the threats they really were (Dany) or were not (Cersei) and to see the Starks bond a bit more before going their separate ways.

I also agree that Jon's lineage should have meant something more in the end than it did.  That was a huge reveal in the story, and it was presented as having significant implications for a very long time.  In the end, it didn't matter at all  (although I'd wager Jon's Targaryan blood is what kept the dragon from burning him at the end).

I can live with this, though.  If the story were to have continued, I think it would have meant more.

But, the rushed nature of the resolution of Cersei's and Dany's characters was the biggest flaw for my tastes. We needed more time with both of them - at least one more season.

[WatchrTina]

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Stannis offered to legitmize Jon and make him Lord of Winterfell, which implies that kings can release a man from his Night's Watch vows (perhaps indirectly, by pardoning him for desertion or by not imposing any punishment for deserting).

Perhaps something similar happened with Sam

But they should have explained it.

Similarly, appointment to the Kings Guard is supposed to be for life but Joffrey "released" Barristan Selmy from his vow when he decided he wanted to put a younger man in the role.  So I guess the bottom line is that the king can do what he wants and if he wants a half-trained Citadel drop-out & ex-Night's Watchman as Grand Maester, then that's what he gets.

[QuinnM]

9 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

So I guess the bottom line is that the king can do what he wants and if he wants a half-trained Citadel drop-out & ex-Night's Watchman as Grand Maester, then that's what he gets.

But does he know about the substantial number of books he stole from the Citadel?  I think not.

[RealityCreator]

7 hours ago, MV713 said:

maybe it was a way that they were trying to protect Jon - by concealing his true identity.  Because maybe that would have gotten him killed, by association with the "mad" Targaryens. They would have never accepted him as a king now.  So to protect him, in essence, by banishing him to the Wall yet again.  No job, no one who cares.

Except nothing in the actual show we watched referenced this as a reason at all.  Just like I am creating the ending in my mind that Jon lives out his life marrying a wildling woman and having as many damn babies as he and his wife want to.  But that ending is only occurring in my imagination and did not occur in the actual show.

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I think the show should have had Jon Snow torched by Drogon. He just wiped out a whole city - he could have melted the Iron Throne and Jon without breaking a sweat. 

They could have been like Romeo and Juliet that way.  But for that happen, they would have had to sell the Jon/Dany romance a lot more convincingly than they did.  I'm still not completely convinced Jon loved her, even though we're told he did.  I just didn't see it in his actions.  Maybe they were too squeamish about the incest angle.  They weren't shy about it with Jaime and Cersei, but Jon and Dany were more major characters.

Anyway, I'm sure Jon Snow fans wouldn't have liked to have seen him get torched.

[RealityCreator]

5 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I'm not sure if they failed, or if they were just too chickenshit to put it in peoples' faces, how badly Dany and Jon were betrayed and played, respectively.

In my book, being too chickenshit to tell the whole story is a failure.

5 hours ago, MadameKillerB said:

I think they just didn't give a shit anymore. 

I agree.

[jeansheridan]

9 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

like how everyone is trying to make sense of this tripe. If we have to try and explain to each other and ourselves what was written, then it means D&D have failed at writing 101. 

I kind of dig imperfect endings. I like not knowing Jon's future other than he is alive for the moment. Or Arya's. Sansa's future looks BORING! So that seems like a fair ending for a dull character. 

I feel like there was a lot of dead weight in the 10 ep seasons so the speed of these seasons was refreshing. There were of course mistakes made. War Queen Dany should not have been so chill flying into Dragonstone. But details like Sam not being a fully trained Maester? Sam is smart and capable of continuing his training at King's Landing. He never failed when it came to research and medicine. I think we can assume he attended soldiers at Winterfell. And I am okay filling in those blanks. That's why this show is fun. There are loose threads like Nymeria and Drogon and if there are more dragon eggs. All those what ifs are exciting to me. 

[benteen]

Ayra's future seems exciting.  I've always wanted to know about The Sunset Sea and that's the only reason I'd love to see an Arya sequel but that is confirmed as not going to happen.

[YaddaYadda]

10 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I kind of dig imperfect endings. I like not knowing Jon's future other than he is alive for the moment. Or Arya's. Sansa's future looks BORING! So that seems like a fair ending for a dull character. 

This isn't about an imperfect ending. This is about the journey on the show to get to that "imperfect" ending, where things don't really make a whole lot of sense. 

I don't have a problem with Dany losing it or with Jon joining the wildlings. I have a problem with the way the writers got there. I have a problem with them trashing character arcs for shock value and Sansa being the pettiest bitch this side of Planetos, who is still selling her family to benefit her own end. And I have a problem that they didn't pay attention to Bran and didn't even have him on for a whole season and then justifying his kingship because he has the best story. Everyone had a better story than Bran.

And I have a problem with them turning the most toxic relationship into some romantic thing with Jaime and Cersei.

The ending could have been satisfying if they didn't focus on penis jokes, fanservicing themselves and other bullshit like that [/rant]

Edited May 23, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[Portia4844]

The best ending would have been Sansa, as Queen of the North, has to behead Jon for deserting the Wall to live with the wildings.  She could quote Ned about swinging the sword.   Bran could watch as he tells Jon thank you for telling me not to look away all those years ago.  

[Constantinople]

15 hours ago, rmontro said:

Anyway, I'm sure Jon Snow fans wouldn't have liked to have seen him get torched.

In contrast, Daenerys's fans were thrilled with Little Dany Hitler

[ShellsandCheese]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

In contrast, Daenerys's fans were thrilled with Little Dany Hitler

I believe it was Little Dany Stalin. Or according to the showrunners Little Dany Lawerence of Arabia. :) 

[Nashville]

On 5/21/2019 at 8:17 PM, Raachel2008 said:

Grey Worm could have killed Jon, I assume he didn't because he was afraid of Drogon, or knew Jon was a Targ, or was somehow afraid of the North + Vale + whoever, or wanted a big spectacle or wanted something he didn't know what was exactly (my personal understading). Grey Worm was never dumb, though

I put Grey Worm’s reticence to immediately execute Jon down to one of two things:

1. Habit. Grey Worm and the rest of the Unsullied have been trained since birth to execute policy and follow orders, not dictate policy and issue orders.
2. Concern for his men.  There’s little doubt Grey Worm would have found immense personal satisfaction in immediately executing Dany’s assassin.  The fact also exists, though, that (a) Grey Worm and the rest of the Unsullied are, as of Dany’s death, no longer operating with the protection of the reigning monarch of the realm, and (b) whoever does emerge as ruler might take issue with a unilateral Unsullied execution of a Westerosi prisoner - possibly to the point of ordering an en masse execution of all Unsullied in retaliation. And IMHO Grey Worm would NEVER do anything which would unnecessarily endanger his men.

21 hours ago, izabella said:

And Jaime should have killed Cersei, like Jon killed Dany, and then died in the rubble next to her.

Or better yet, Jamie returns back to the waiting arms of Brienne forevermore - but not before the last words Cersei hears on this earth are, “You lied - somebody ELSE knows how to do that thing you do with your tongue....”. 😉

21 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I like how everyone is trying to make sense of this tripe. If we have to try and explain to each other and ourselves what was written, then it means D&D have failed at writing 101. 

It’s like a chess grandmaster playing against a novice “wood pusher”; the grandmaster will lose more times than you’d think because they screw themselves up looking at the novice’s moves, and attempting to counter “strategies” which don’t actually exist.

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Ayra's future seems exciting.  I've always wanted to know about The Sunset Sea and that's the only reason I'd love to see an Arya sequel but that is confirmed as not going to happen.

I expect Arya’s story to end with a closing line Margaret Mead would appreciate: “Man, those Samoans are a surly bunch.”  ;>

[Umbelina]

So Greyworm, new head of the Unsullied, makes his first big decision, to sail off to an Island that will kill him, and all of his men.  Death by butterflies.

Hopefully they stop for supplies somewhere and are warned against continuing to Naarth.

Meanwhile, the ever changing numbers of surviving Dothraki (how annoying that was) are doing what?  Pillaging and raping their way through Westeros?  Did they get magical ships to take them back to the Dothraki Sea as well?

SO many suddenly available ships! 

But yeah, let's all listen to Tyrion talk and talk and talk so Peter gets another Emmy, instead of, you know, letting us know what's going on.

By the way, did Lena's "appearance" in the last episode qualify her for an Emmy nod?  Stand around drinking wine, lay around dead, what's the difference?

Edited May 23, 2019 by Umbelina

[benteen]

Dinklage did good work this season but yeah, his entire screen time could consist of him literally walking around the room for five seconds and the Emmys would still give him the Best Supporting Actor Award.