S08.E05: The Bells

[Butless]

17 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Did anyone think Greyworm was going to attempt to assassinate Jon on orders from Dany (by the way he turned and looked at him)?

Poor Bronn. All what was promised is gone.

No. But he's going to tattle on him to QueeDee, Why else all the shots of him turning around and frowning at Jon when  he wouldn't attack POWs? He's going to drag Jon's ass up to Dany, next episode.

[Butless]

21 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

Something I pondered: If you were a civilian who lived in King’s Landing, why wouldn’t you evacuate the city as soon as you heard it was the focus of an attack instead of going deeper into the city? This assumes you could leave before the allies arrived.

If you head outside, you run the risk of smacking into troops, on your own. In the keep, there are the others there. Also there are a lot of poor people with no money. How will they get shelter? food? Or even transportation out of the city,  that is fast enough?

[watchTV]

21 hours ago, Law Mom said:

As for the mad queen, I feel like it is a failure of our education system that people didn’t see it coming. English Lit 101! It was projected from the very first episode. Was Dany ever righteous? Arguably not. The narcissist can do what looks like good deeds, but the motivation is not caring but admiration. Narcissists require supply. Dany freed slaves to gain a group of people who owed her and called her Mother, and then she gave herself the title Breaker of Chains. She took over the Unsullied and offered them a chance to leave, but how realistic is that. These men had no other life. So they followed her. She didn’t give a rat’s ass about them individually. She constantly referred to them as “her” army as if she owned them. She wore a mask of virtue but it was never real because she has no empathy.

So when Dany became close enough with Messandai to be her best friend, what was that? Messandai, a slave girl, close to a royal. When Dany stopped eating after Messandai died, what was that? Someone who has no empathy would never mourn another who was beneath her. She would never have cared to give Grey Worm her only possession. There were many instances that showed she was good including the time she went to rescue Jon and company from the NK. That was even before Jon had proof to show the  wights existed. So I don't buy this notion that she was just an evil, unempathetic, crazy character.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, watchTV said:

So when Dany became close enough with Messandai to be her best friend, what was that? Messandai, a slave girl, close to a royal. When Dany stopped eating after Messandai died, what was that? Someone who has no empathy would never mourn another who was beneath her. She would never have cared to give Grey Worm her only possession. There were many instances that showed she was good including the time she went to rescue Jon and company from the NK. That was even before Jon had proof to show the  wights existed. So I don't buy this notion that she was just an evil, unempathetic, crazy character.

Dany loves people who worship and honor her and love her.

Others?  Not so much.

Now if the whole of Westeros had taken the knee and started chanting her name?  She wouldn't have killed them.

She doesn't handle rejection well.

[Law Mom]

7 minutes ago, watchTV said:

So when Dany became close enough with Messandai to be her best friend, what was that? Messandai, a slave girl, close to a royal. When Dany stopped eating after Messandai died, what was that? Someone who has no empathy would never mourn another who was beneath her. She would never have cared to give Grey Worm her only possession. There were many instances that showed she was good including the time she went to rescue Jon and company from the NK. That was even before Jon had proof to show the  wights existed. So I don't buy this notion that she was just an evil, unempathetic, crazy character.

Dany liked having Missandei around. She was good company. Her language skills came in handy. She was a source of supply who worshipped her queen. Of course Dany misses her. I just think that every good deed seems to have a bit of extra benefit for her. There are lots of people out there who will do a favor just so the other person will owe them, or for bragging rights. She asked Jon to bend the knee about a million times and he refused. She does him a solid and boom, knee bent.

[watchTV]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Dany loves people who worship and honor her and love her.

Others?  Not so much.

Now if the whole of Westeros had taken the knee and started chanting her name?  She wouldn't have killed them.

She doesn't handle rejection well.

You glossed over the part where she risked her life and dragons to rescue Jon and company before proof the wights existed. She owed him nothing especially after he refused to bend the knee.

4 minutes ago, Law Mom said:

Dany liked having Missandei around. She was good company. Her language skills came in handy. She was a source of supply who worshipped her queen. Of course Dany misses her. I just think that every good deed seems to have a bit of extra benefit for her. There are lots of people out there who will do a favor just so the other person will owe them, or for bragging rights. She asked Jon to bend the knee about a million times and he refused. She does him a solid and boom, knee bent.

What exactly was the benefit to her not eating? Or to cry over Jorah who she admitted she did not love? An unempathic person / narcissist would see a man bleed  on his floor and complain the floor is ruined. 

And Jon bent that knee on his own accord. Daenarys didn't say, okay I've witnessed what you warned us about and I'll help you further if you bend the knee. She considers the dragons as her children and lost one trying to rescue Jon.

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, watchTV said:

You glossed over the part where she risked her life and dragons to rescue Jon and company before proof the wights existed. She owed him nothing especially after he refused to bend the knee.

What exactly was the benefit to her not eating? Or to cry over Jorah who she admitted she did not love? An unempathic person / narcissist would see a man bleed  on his floor and complain the floor is ruined. 

And Jon bent that knee on his own accord. Daenarys didn't say, okay I've witnessed what you warned us about and I'll help you further if you bend the knee. She considers the dragons as her children and lost one trying to rescue Jon.

1.  It was HER KINGDOM she was trying to save.

2.  Jorah loved HER, that's what she needs, not her loving them.

3.  She never expected to lose that dragon and if she had known the power of the night king to actually hurt a dragon, she probably would have reconsidered.

She came to Westeros, held filled with her crazy brother's promises of love and celebration and flowers thrown at their feet, and the whole 7 Kingdoms rejoiced at a Targ return.

She arrived and they didn't even like her, let alone love her, and the last thing they wanted is her to be their Queen.  It was a let down.  All that suffering, all those sacrifices, and none of it has gotten her anything.  So, as she says, she will use fear, fire, and blood.

If Kings Landing had cheered her, she wouldn't of killed them all.  They did not.  They were terrified of dragons, as were the Westeros people before the Targ invaders were finally defeated before.  They had a right to that terror, as she burned them to death, crushed what little they had, and left those not burned, badly wounded and suffering.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Umbelina
added stuff

[Soup333]

The writers went for shock and awe instead of what made sense. Brienne/Jamie unnecessary other than to throw in our face that the woman he loved (whose arms he wanted to die in) was his sister. Arya killing the NK instead of Jon. Let’s do the unexpected! Surprise! They didn’t want to do a Jon/Dany love story - which is fine. There are a million other avenues they could have taken besides this one. It’s like an M. Night movie at this point.

[Soup333]

7 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I think the episode should've been titled: "How To Destroy All Your Main Characters In 90 Minutes Or Less."

Dany's descent into madness was too rushed to be believable. She went from risking her life to fight at Winterfell to slaughtering innocents in a matter of what, two weeks? 

Jon: completely useless. 

Arya: ran around the city doing nothing because the showrunners wanted a POV character. 

Varys: the smartest, most cunning man in Westeros never even attempted to get out of Dodge once it was obvious Tyrion wouldn't back Jon for the Throne

Cersei: the smartest, most cunning woman in Westeros didn't have an escape plan ready when it was clear the battle was going to shit

Jaime: seven seasons of slowly built character development flushed down the drain. Sorry Brienne, you never stood a chance.

Greyworm: turns out he was just a heartless, foreign savage afterall. It's nice the writers didn't go for the obvious stereotype....

The Hound: dies to kill his brother...who likely would've died anyways considering the Red Keep was collapsing all around them.

Tyrion: racking up L's like the New York Knicks. 

I’m honestly baffled at all the people loving this and defending it. 

[Umbelina]

29 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

The writers went for shock and awe instead of what made sense. Brienne/Jamie unnecessary other than to throw in our face that the woman he loved (whose arms he wanted to die in) was his sister. Arya killing the NK instead of Jon. Let’s do the unexpected! Surprise! They didn’t want to do a Jon/Dany love story - which is fine. There are a million other avenues they could have taken besides this one. It’s like an M. Night movie at this point.

I think the episode was good enough in many ways.

It's just how much better it could have been if these set ups had used enough time to make it all real, make it have impact.

Jon and Dany should have really been in love, they needed quiet scenes, dialogue scenes, rather than cramming their love story into mostly GCI scenes.  If they had, after Dany has lost so much?  Then Jon's rejection would have impact that mattered.  It would be one more huge loss for her on top of all the others, the final straw.  They TELL us that, but they didn't show it, or earn it.

Also, Varys is not an idiot.  He would die for what he believes, but he's survived for all these years because he's careful, he's cautious, he does not do stupid shit.

Tyrion is also not an idiot. I don't buy his divided loyalties.  I don't buy that he plans an escape for Cersei (who wants him dead, has hated him his whole life, tortured him as a baby and child.)  He CAN NOT be Dany's "hand" and want her dangerous fanatical enemy to escape to attack again.  It's beyond comprehension.  He's also a good battle planner, look how he saved KL!  He just would not make these kind of blunders.

BUT

The showrunners wanted to rush this.  The showrunners wanted the dead to come alive in the crypts.  The showrunners care more about how great something looks on TV, and not nearly enough about how much sense it makes.  The showrunners needed to give Lena a blockbuster episode or she wouldn't have been eligible for emmys.  The showrunners therefore had to have Tyrion betray Dany (adding to her ever growing list of disappointments, betrayals, and deaths.)

This could have been a great episode, but they didn't bother to take the time setting this up so it would ring true, and make tragic sense.  I mean I can fan wank the hell out of this to force it to make sense, and I have.

I shouldn't have to, no one should have to.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[Umbelina]

I just heard an interesting theory.  It really did seem that Varys kept trying to get Dany to eat.  Maybe he's been poisoning her for a while, and that might help explain her "crazy."

Doubtful, but I do think he was planning to poison her.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

11 hours ago, ulkis said:

I feel like naming a kid Daenerys is about the same risk as getting a boyfriend or girlfriend's name tattooed on you.

According to this article, in 2018 in the United States, 560 babies were named Khaleesi and 163 were named Daenerys. This says that in total, there are 2,528 babies in total who have been named Khaleesi so far (my favorite part of this little story is that her Khaleesi's sister is named Elphaba).

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I just heard an interesting theory.  It really did seem that Varys kept trying to get Dany to eat.  Maybe he's been poisoning her for a while, and that might help explain her "crazy."

Doubtful, but I do think he was planning to poison her.

He was having his little bird Martha poison Dany's food. It was discussed in the first scene of this week's episode. I don't think he started poisoning her food until they arrived in Dragonstone, after he and Tyrion had discussed Jon vs. Dany. He had no reason to poison her before that because until he knew about Jon's parentage, he was firmly pro-Dany as ruler of Westeros.

Edited May 14, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[spaceghostess]

On 5/13/2019 at 3:31 AM, Law Mom said:

As for the mad queen, I feel like it is a failure of our education system that people didn’t see it coming. English Lit 101! It was projected from the very first episode. Was Dany ever righteous? Arguably not. The narcissist can do what looks like good deeds, but the motivation is not caring but admiration. Narcissists require supply. Dany freed slaves to gain a group of people who owed her and called her Mother, and then she gave herself the title Breaker of Chains. She took over the Unsullied and offered them a chance to leave, but how realistic is that. These men had no other life. So they followed her. She didn’t give a rat’s ass about them individually. She constantly referred to them as “her” army as if she owned them. She wore a mask of virtue but it was never real because she has no empathy.

 

Hmm. Not only did I take English 101, I graduated with a degree in it and went on to a career in publishing. Reading other people's novels (across all genres) has been part of my job for the last 20 years, and hey! I didn't see this coming. Because D&D's story and character building didn't support it.

Also, as someone who was married to a malignant narcissist for 16 years and spent two years divorcing him, I had to learn plenty about what makes them tick in order to recover from his abuse and to protect my children from being well and truly fucked up by him (this is a work in progress). Based on this research, as well as personal (not professional!) experience, I have to disagree with your assessment. It's easy enough to cherry-pick terms from the DSM that match up with Dany at her worst, but there are other key behaviors we haven't seen her display but that all narcissists exhibit:

1. Lying. All narcs lie, whether to prop up their egos, cover their asses, or just for kicks (because they get off on the power of knowing they're putting one over on somebody). Dany's been called many things, but "liar" isn't one of them.

2. Cruelty, especially via manipulation, to reliable/primary sources of supply. This happens when (a) a normally compliant source presents unexpected resistance, and/or (b) the narc is getting bored with the supply source. If Dany were a narcissist, she'd deal out spontaneous and casual cruelty to even her closest and most reliable sources of supply just because she can. She'd play her advisors against one another to see how far they'd go to curry her favor. Or you'd see her being a bitch to Missandei, for example, for no discernible reason. Narcissists can be extremely charming and warm, but the mask comes down eventually. 

3. Unmitigated selfishness. As you pointed out, a narcissist is only "generous" when gathering supply or tap dancing to keep it. Victims of narcissistic abuse will tell you how,  in the "honeymoon phase," the narc was such a great listener, so interested in everything they had to say. This ends once the supply source has been secured, therefore Dany, having secured Missandei, wouldn't have been particularly interested in her "friend"'s growing feelings for Grey Worm, for instance. Their intimate conversation about that was a genuine moment of friendship. Dany listened to and cared about what Missandei had to say. Narcs don't engage in these types of exchanges unless there's something in it for them or they fear losing supply. What a supply source thinks are deep, meaningful "conversations" are, upon closer examination, actually long stretches of the narc talking about him/herself.

Oh--and no way would a narcissist risk him/herself and/or his/her powerful toys (because children--dragon or otherwise--are nothing but toys for a narc) to save OTHER people. Sure, you could say Dany's actions at the Battle of Winterfell were the ultimate supply harvest, but I'd say not, because the risk to her person in order to gain that potential supply was way too high.

So no, I don't believe Dany is a narcissist. But your post got me thinking about how D&D could have made her one. Just a few scenes per season of her exhibiting truly narcissistic behaviors would have helped lay compelling groundwork to support what the last two episodes would now have us believe.

Edited May 14, 2019 by spaceghostess

[markx]

3 hours ago, Soup333 said:

The writers went for shock and awe instead of what made sense. Brienne/Jamie unnecessary other than to throw in our face that the woman he loved (whose arms he wanted to die in) was his sister. Arya killing the NK instead of Jon. Let’s do the unexpected! Surprise! They didn’t want to do a Jon/Dany love story - which is fine. There are a million other avenues they could have taken besides this one. It’s like an M. Night movie at this point.

But having Jon kill the Night King would have been something convenient for the writing rather than necessarily realistic. Arya wasn't unexpected to me, she was the most obvious choice if not Jon (and, with her training as an assassin and atypical fighting skills, more realistic).

In general, I don't feel there have been twists or reveals this season, all of the pieces were brought into play by the end of last season.

[markx]

No one disputes that Dany has a cruel, vicisous streak and was always portrayed as having the seeds of eventual tyranny in her. But her previous fire and blood moments were always understandable. "

I didn't see her burning the Tarlys to death for not bending the knee as moral. And when last season was discussed, it seemed there were plenty who disputed she had such negative sides to her.

Of course it wasn't on the scale as this episode, but they were still serious acts, and dangerous red flags for any would be ruler.

[BooBear]

Going back over this episode via you tube (I have cancelled my HBO subscription) I just can't believe how bad it was. Every scene had WTF? moments. 

- Why wasn't Varys gone already? If you are going to betray your queen, you might want to do it from afar. Not to mention, he is trying to poison her? Seriously?  Proposition Jon right there? Are you mad?

- Jon seems perfectly ok with Varys being burned alive.

- Davos commits treason for Tyrion... the guy who killed his son?

- Jamie, just stunning, is actually returning to Kings Landing to save Cersie. Wow, just wow.

- Tyrion commits treason to release Jamie to do something, Jamie doesn't end up doing. Some rando ends up ringing the bells. 

- The golden company, wow... they literally get beat in one blow from Drogon. Hysterical.

- Why was Dany unable to anything about Euron's fleet last week but this week she destroys double the number of ships almost immediately. 

- Why does Dany just completely ignore the red keep? I mean it is the largest target in kings landing and Cersie is in there but no... don't attack that until the end and apparently don't attack it with fire. 

- Why kill everyone in Kings Landing and destroy the city? How much is rebuilding going to cost? 

-Why was the hound aware that if Arya went any further into the city she would die but he was willing to die for NO REASON. HIs brother would have died protecting Cersie. That was totally obvious. 

- It almost seemed like Gray Worm looked at Jon with contempt for not joining him in killing the Lannister army. Is Jon going to be on the firing block next week? 

- What was going on with Arya. As many pointed out her "you must leave" got people killed. Plus frankly Arya should be dead too.  

ETA: Jamie and Euron fighting for the love of Cersie. Who wanted to see that plot line? Who? I wanted to see Dany burn Euron but the shows writers act like someone should care about Jamie fighting Euron?

I can't watch this episode without having like 10 why's pop into my head. It gives me a headache.

Edited May 14, 2019 by BooBear

[Coxfires]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

-Why was the hound aware that if Arya went any further into the city she would die but he was willing to die for NO REASON. HIs brother would have died protecting Cersie. That was totally obvious. 

Because for the Hound it was not about his brother dying, it was about getting revenge against him. That is why he showed Arya she had to let go of revenge or she'd end up like him. Sandor was not satisfied just watching his brother die by someone else's hand, he needed do have this last fight 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Coxfires

[Bannon]

With the fairly botched finish of this show, I can completely swear off any drama for the next two decades that features any element of zombies, undead, wights, etc.. This hugely tedious plot element ends for me with one one of my favorite t.v. curmudgeons, The Hound, yelling something close to  what I scream silently nearly every time I watch any zombie scenes in any drama...."JUST F*CKING DIE,  WILL YOU, PLEASE!!!!! (gigantic sigh)"

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When they showed Tyrion walking towards the bell tower, I thought he was going to run inside and ring the bells himself to get the fighting to stop. Once again, I was wrong.

[GodsBeloved]

12 hours ago, ulkis said:

The person in this video asks if Roose Bolton would be considered crazy. I wanna say yeah?

Crazy, demented, evil, insane, wicked, immoral, mad. He was all that and more.

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, watchTV said:

What exactly was the benefit to her not eating? Or to cry over Jorah who she admitted she did not love? An unempathic person / narcissist would see a man bleed  on his floor and complain the floor is ruined. 

That would be a movie villain psychopath. No one is saying that. Roose Bolton she isn’t. It does ‘t mean ‘narcissist’ isn’t a good descriptor.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Affogato

[Heathrowe]

I've had more time to mull things over now.

-I am not glad that Jaime went back to reason with Cersei, but I am glad that he didn't kill her. I get that it made narrative sense, and I did expect it to happen, but....if he had killed her Jaime really would have been monstrous. (A king and queenslayer) - so maybe his not killing is a bit of a nod to his destroyed character arc. Maybe he did become a better person-even if Cersei isn't the one we would have chosen for him to die with. 

-I did not catch that Davos worked with Tyrion to provide the Cersei getaway boat. I wonder if fan-favorite Davos will also be on trial next week?

-I did not catch that Varys was trying to poison Dany when I watched the episode but I agree with that now. Again, the "subtle" writing on this show makes me nuts. It doesn't come across as smart, it comes across as the writers being afraid to position a storyline-with one episode to go! 

Someone upthread said Jon's relationship with Dany is reminding them of Sansa and Joffrey now. Great comment! 

[paigow]

On 5/13/2019 at 7:46 AM, mxc90 said:

Did anyone think Greyworm was going to attempt to assassinate Jon on orders from Dany (by the way he turned and looked at him)?

Jon was ordering his men to hold position...Grey Worm was angry that Jon would not cover the Unsullied advance / slaughter

[JennyMominFL]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I just heard an interesting theory.  It really did seem that Varys kept trying to get Dany to eat.  Maybe he's been poisoning her for a while, and that might help explain her "crazy."

Doubtful, but I do think he was planning to poison her.

The girl he was talking too, the little bird, was from the kitchen, I would say he was trying to poison her.

Edited May 14, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[QuinnM]

15 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

The girl he was talking too, the little bird, was from the kitchen, I would say he was trying to poison her.

When she fist walked in to the room she looked at Varys and shook her head no before he even spoke.  So I assumed she failed a task.  Once the kitchen worker and Dany not eating started to come out I guessed poison.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Stella said:

I know this isn't exactly the same but it does bring to mind the US involvement in Vietnam. Just watch Ken Burns documentary The Vietnam War and the parallels are clear. 

Cersei closing the gates looked like the U.S. Embassy in Saigon.....

[Soup333]

2 hours ago, mdwh said:

But having Jon kill the Night King would have been something convenient for the writing rather than necessarily realistic. Arya wasn't unexpected to me, she was the most obvious choice if not Jon (and, with her training as an assassin and atypical fighting skills, more realistic).

In general, I don't feel there have been twists or reveals this season, all of the pieces were brought into play by the end of last season.

Must be incredibly boring for you then since you expected all of this. 

[darkestboy]

Damn it, show. Even if it was "foreshadowed" with Dany, the way in which the series has conveyed her descent into madness and tyranny should've been so much better written and handled than this.

Watching her use Drogon to sack King's Landing even after they surrendered was brutal and seemed to go on forever. There's no way she's going to able to keep that throne by the time we get to the series finale.

Jon has a decision to make and pretty fast before Arya makes it for him.

Where the hell did that white horse appear out of? Loved Arya's final scene with the Hound and Tyrion's with Jaime as well.

I'm not mad with the way Jaime and Cersei's story ended and to the episode's credit, it did end Varys, Euron, Qyburn, the Cleaganes stories well enough I guess.

Still though the destruction of Dany's character, damn it. 7/10

[WatchrTina]

On 5/13/2019 at 3:51 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

After the Hound killed the goldcloaks on the stairway, I was really hoping he would stab Cersei as she came down the stairs (accompanied by "Arya Stark sends her regards").

Actually those were the last remnants of the Queensguard with Cersei  -- not ordinary gold cloak soldiers. And yet Sandor cut through them like tissue paper which, when you think about about it, is extremely bad-ass.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, RealReality said:

* History is littered with stories of beheadings that went long and wrong, but done correctly, a beheading is v. v fast and painless.   

Fun fact, the guillotine was invented as a more merciful execution device because, unlike beheadings, it was swift and sure.

8 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Something I pondered: If you were a civilian who lived in King’s Landing, why wouldn’t you evacuate the city as soon as you heard it was the focus of an attack instead of going deeper into the city? This assumes you could leave before the allies arrived.

The fortress in medieval times, which Westeros mimics, was always the place of shelter - where the food and supplies were kept and typically the folk were well away from the soldiers. Granted, this was a big city and not everyone would fit. But it would be the first place people would go.

4 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

Hmm. Not only did I take English 101, I graduated with a degree in it and went on to a career in publishing. Reading other people's novels (across all genres) has been part of my job for the last 20 years, and hey! I didn't see this coming. Because D&D's story and character building didn't support it.

I have pretty much the same background (with a few more years of experience), and I did see it coming. I do agree, however, that narcissist is not a correct descriptor for Dany.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Clanstarling

[mothmonsterman]

When i saw the white horse at the end I assumed it was a gift/aid from the god of light. The god of light kept bringing Beric back to save Arya during the great war. I think the god of light has one more thing for Arya to do. 

[tv-talk]

2 hours ago, Coxfires said:

Because for the Hound it was not about his brother dying, it was about getting revenge against him. That is why he showed Arya she had to let go of revenge or she'd end up like him. Sandor was not satisfied just watching his brother die by someone else's hand, he needed do have this last fight 

There had to be a Clegane Bowl as fan service...but didnt the Hound have a million chances to fight or kill his brother as they lived and worked side-by-side for years? I loved the Hound but think they did him a bit wrong, after all he'd been thru, to make his only purpose in life killing his brother. I will say tho if Arya is gone and done with revenge, doesnt make a move against Dany, then I like it much more.

1 hour ago, Heathrowe said:

I am not glad that Jaime went back to reason with Cersei, but I am glad that he didn't kill her.

I'm in the minority who thinks that was a great ending for Jaimie and Cersei. As creepy as it was- they loved each other moreso than any other 2 characters in the series. Having him strangle her would have been absurd. What they chose to do was perfectly in character with what we've seen from then all along. The look of happiness and shock on Cersei's face when Jaimie appeared was great too.

[QuinnM]

Just now, Clanstarling said:

I have pretty much the same background (with a few more years), and I did see it coming. I do agree, however, that narcissist is not a correct descriptor for Dany.

Agree on both points.  If you string together all the times she declared herself the only heir to the throne, she said to Jon it was rightfully hers, the number of times she declared she would burn it all down, and finally in this episode Tyrion spent 5 minutes begging her not to do it to stop when the bells rang.  It didn't come out of nowhere.  This is who she is.   This is who she always was.

[GodsBeloved]

17 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Okay, but Jon SAYING it's urgent never explains why.

True.

Here's why I did accept Jon's word that there was at least some level of urgency (and I'm going on old memory so apologizes if I get things wrong)

• The show started with us seeing the white walker and the killings they did
• The direwolf being south of the wall
• The Night's Watch need for more men (don't remember if it was just for the wildlings or if there was some indication they were needed for what was looming (NK and his crew)
• Winter was coming
• The wildlings were trying to get south of the wall
• Jon sees the NK raising up the dead 
• Jon sees the wildlings can breach the wall and maybe the AOTD can as well

There may be more things I'm not recalling right now. Also, I am not clear on the magic of the wall. I don't recall if it literally kept the NK at bay like the cave Bran was in with the Children and the #ER did (until of course Bran was touched by the NK).

I can see how some didn't see any urgency though.

[tv-talk]

2 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

There may be more things I'm not recalling right now. Also, I am not clear on the magic of the wall. I don't recall if it literally kept the NK at bay like the cave Bran was in with the Children and the #ER did (until of course Bran was touched by the NK).

I can see how some didn't see any urgency though.

not sure if it's true but I read somewhere that the entire plotline of having to go up North and capture a wight to take to KL was simply so the NK could have a dragon because the producers thought a shot of undead dragon blowing up the Wall was too epic to pass up. Again, dont know if this is true or not but if so it's an odd way to write a story.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, Daisy said:

one can even argue - yes he betrayed the Tyrells by going against them - but let's be dead honest, The Tyrells were trying to go against the throne for ever. Olenna (by that time) basically went "peace out, homies." and went to go with Dany because she wanted what happened on Sunday to happen years earlier once Cersei blew up the sept. 

Jaime/Cersei reminded them to be honour-bound to the throne and in doing so - he gets HIghgarden/Warden of the South - which basically Olenna "gave up" when she betrayed KL.  The Tarlys therefore - while doing it for more selfish reasons (Highgarden) was still doing it to the queen they recognized. not the woman who claimed she had a right). 


 

It is debatable whether the Tarly's were being honorable or prideful and foolish, or both.

The whole matter of whether they owed allegiance to Cersei or House Tyrell was murky.  Cersei was the crowned ruler of the 7Ks, so there oath to the crown would supersede their oath to their liege lady.  But, since Cersei's claim to the throne was rather shaky and she had done it by murdering the Queen, the High Septon and numerous nobles, you could argue that no house owed allegiance to her, especially if their liege lords had declared against her.

Even if you believe the crown belonged to House Baratheon, House Baratheon became extinct when Tommen died and was already really extinct after Stannis was killed.  

Was Cersei's claim to the crown based upon her being the widow of the King she murdered or the mother of the late King who was not a legitimate King, but an incest bastard?  Of course, neither the murder nor the illegitimacy of Tommen were known for sure, which could give Lords grounds to follow Cersei.  

I guess you can give Randyl credit for choosing a side, rather than flipping back and forth like Varys.   But, given how his character was portrayed in his treatment of Sam and him wanting to flog the straggles in the loot train, I tend to think he was just a dick, though a brave one.   

[Bryce Lynch]

14 minutes ago, darkestboy said:

Damn it, show. Even if it was "foreshadowed" with Dany, the way in which the series has conveyed her descent into madness and tyranny should've been so much better written and handled than this.

Watching her use Drogon to sack King's Landing even after they surrendered was brutal and seemed to go on forever. There's no way she's going to able to keep that throne by the time we get to the series finale.

Jon has a decision to make and pretty fast before Arya makes it for him.

Where the hell did that white horse appear out of? Loved Arya's final scene with the Hound and Tyrion's with Jaime as well.

I'm not mad with the way Jaime and Cersei's story ended and to the episode's credit, it did end Varys, Euron, Qyburn, the Cleaganes stories well enough I guess.

Still though the destruction of Dany's character, damn it. 7/10

The writers suddenly made Dany so over the top evil, that there is no way Jon or anyone else with any honor could remain loyal to her.  If there had been a little more nuance in her brutality (like maybe she torches tens of thousands of innocents because it was the only way for her to win or win quickly) there would have been more suspense about whether Jon would turn against her.  But, the horrible writing in episode 5 will probably hurt the quality of episode 6 as well.  

[Constantinople]

After some thought, I've decided these people are to blame for the destruction of King's Landing

1. D&D: Like BF Goodrich tires, their characters turn on a dime
    
2. Jon Snow: King Passive Aggressive sure talks a lot about his biological parents for someone who claims he doesn't want the throne
    
3. Jon Snow (again): He couldn't suck it up and give his auntie a pity f*** for the good of the realm? If Daenerys looked like Ygritte, his little Jon would be dracarysing faster than Littlefinger's teleporter
    
4. Rhaegar Targaryen: Couldn't keep his pants on
    
5. Lyanna Stark: Man stealing hussy
    
6. Ned: Ned lied; everyone died
    
7. Catelyn: If she kept her promise to the gods to have Ned legitimize Jon, the meager evidence to challenge his Starkness would be unquestioned
    
8. Bran: Normalizing the kind of spectral evidence last seen since the Salem Witch trials. Can't shut up.
    
9. Sansa: Littlefinger wannabee and another Stark blabbermouth
    
10. Tyrion: Discretion is the better part of valor
     
11. Varys: Perfection is the enemy of the good
     
12. Ygritte: She should have let the Lord of Bones kill Jon when the Wildlings captured him
     
13. Ygritte (again): The best archer North of the Wall conveniently missed the killer shot
     
14. Craster's widow: Saved Jon by knifing Karl Tanner in the back
     
15. Olly: Killing Ygritte took away her last chance to take out Jon (though he partially redeemed himself by knifing Jon)
     
16. Stannis: If he attacked the Wildlings 10 minutes later, Jon wouldn't be around no more
     
17. Melisandre: Gave Jon a cheat code
     
18. Davos: Idea for the cheat code was his
     
19. Sansa (again): Saved the day, and Jon's ass, at the Battle of the Bastards
     
20. Sam: Another Chatty Cathy who loves the sound of his own voice, who conveniently piped up after finding out about his father and brother
     
21. Gilly: Keep your beeswax out of Southern affairs

In related news, now that the Night King has been defeated, House Stark has changed its words from Winter Is Coming to We Can't STFU (except for Arya)

[tv-talk]

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The writers suddenly made Dany so over the top evil, that there is no way Jon or anyone else with any honor could remain loyal to her.

When she had the Unsullied and Dothraki screamers sack the cities in Essos...did the show claim they were humane and didnt hurt women&children the way they had been doing throughout their entire existences? I cant recall if there was a throwaway line to suggest that under Dany they were nice now or if it was just assumed that because Dany was in charge everyone was nice to civilians. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by tv-talk

[AnnaL]

On 5/13/2019 at 7:50 AM, CletusMusashi said:

Fuck this season.Yet again, they tell a story without understanding how to build it. You want to have Dany burn KL? Fine. Have her go in with massive firepower, defeat the Redshirt Company, and then have the fires that have already been started go out of control. Dragons are good at making fire. Not so good at stopping it. She could sit and watch from above, looking stunned in close-up but aloof to people on the ground who can't really see her and just assume that she's gloating or whatever, and then Jon can have his "Bruce Wayne at the beginning of Batfleck v Superman" moment. You still get your conflict, but you also still get your characters.

So what did we actually learn this week? Dany has suddenly gone moustache-twirlingly out-of-character evil supervillain crazy. Because she's a Targaryan. And Targaryans do that. So instead of to her... the throne should go to Jon. Because... he's a Targaryan. 

I think there is a lot to be said about nature vs nurture here. 

Daenerys was raised by her brother Viserys, she mentions several times at the beginning of the series that he was a loving brother who protected her and even sold their mother jewels so they can survive but they were nomads all their lives, it is only when Viserys gets of age that he started to change because he felt ready to retake his birthright and that is when he became terrible and awful to her and basically abused her physically and emotionally. He was also verbally abusive and will go on rampages against her telling her "Do you want to wake the dragon?" 

Jon was raised by Ned Stark, an honorable man who risked not only his life but his family's to protect Jon and raised him as one of his children, yes Jon was a bastard and obviously felt different to his siblings but by all accounts he was raised as a Stark, Rob was his best friend and they trained together. The whole keep of WF were like an extended family for him. The Starks had never positioned themselves as wanting the Iron Throne, matter of fact Ned didn't even want to be Robert's hand, he wanted to stay in WF and be happy with his family. He could have had a place right next to Robert after the rebellion but he refused because Robert agreed with the killing of Rhaegal children.

Even though Jon is half Targaryen, IMO he was raised with Stark values, he also was raised to think he didn't have any right of inheritance, he had ambitions like anyone, having a keep, a wife and children, a family and he mentions that this will make him happy. Daenerys OTOH was raised to think of her as a princess who one day will marry her brother and will become the queen of Westeros. Once Viserys died she became convinced that it was her destiny to retake the IT and become the Queen. The fact that she got three dragons only gave her the power that she needed to take what she wanted by force. 

It is not lost on me the fact that during this last season Daenerys demeanor and speech resembles more and more that of Vyserys while Jon's moodiness and silence resembles more that of Ned. I have been critical of Ned but I do understand that his honor and his values have shaped the new generation of Starks while the lack of moral and values and intense desire for power have shaped Vyserys and Daenerys. 

Maybe that is the tale here, we just can't escape who we truly are. Daenerys has talked about destruction so many times and last episode she just proved what unleashing the dragon really meant.

Her father Aerys and her brother Vyserys would be so proud of her. 

[Constantinople]

Hoping put together the clips of Dany torching King's Landing with Elton John's Sorry Seems To Be the Hardest Word as background music

What have I got to do to make you love me
What have I got to do to make you care
What do I do when lightning strikes me
And I wake to find that you're not there?

What have I got to do to make you want me
What have I got to do to be heard
What do I say when it's all over?
And dracarys seems to be the hardest word

It's sad, so sad (so sad)
It's a sad, sad situation
And it's getting more and more absurd

[tv-talk]

3 minutes ago, AnnaL said:

Maybe that is the tale here, we just can't escape who we truly are.

As Jaimie Lannister can (could) attest.

[Bryce Lynch]

22 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

After some thought, I've decided these people are to blame for the destruction of King's Landing

1. D&D: Like BF Goodrich tires, their characters turn on a dime
    
2. Jon Snow: King Passive Aggressive sure talks a lot about his biological parents for someone who claims he doesn't want the throne
    
3. Jon Snow (again): He couldn't suck it up and give his auntie a pity f*** for the good of the realm? If Daenerys looked like Ygritte, his little Jon would be dracarysing faster than Littlefinger's teleporter
    
4. Rhaegar Targaryen: Couldn't keep his pants on
    
5. Lyanna Stark: Man stealing hussy
    
6. Ned: Ned lied; everyone died
    
7. Catelyn: If she kept her promise to the gods to have Ned legitimize Jon, the meager evidence to challenge his Starkness would be unquestioned
    
8. Bran: Normalizing the kind of spectral evidence last seen since the Salem Witch trials. Can't shut up.
    
9. Sansa: Littlefinger wannabee and another Stark blabbermouth
    
10. Tyrion: Discretion is the better part of valor
     
11. Varys: Perfection is the enemy of the good
     
12. Ygritte: She should have let the Lord of Bones kill Jon when the Wildlings captured him
     
13. Ygritte (again): The best archer North of the Wall conveniently missed the killer shot
     
14. Craster's widow: Saved Jon by knifing Karl Tanner in the back
     
15. Olly: Killing Ygritte took away her last chance to take out Jon (though he partially redeemed himself by knifing Jon)
     
16. Stannis: If he attacked the Wildlings 10 minutes later, Jon wouldn't be around no more
     
17. Melisandre: Gave Jon a cheat code
     
18. Davos: Idea for the cheat code was his
     
19. Sansa (again): Saved the day, and Jon's ass, at the Battle of the Bastards
     
20. Sam: Another Chatty Cathy who loves the sound of his own voice, who conveniently piped up after finding out about his father and brother
     
21. Gilly: Keep your beeswax out of Southern affairs

In related news, now that the Night King has been defeated, House Stark has changed its words from Winter Is Coming to We Can't STFU (except for Arya)

LOL! Great list.  How about Shireen for teaching Gily to read?  If not for that mistake, Jon  would just be seen as Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's bastard, with no claim on the Iron Throne.  

Edited May 14, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Constantinople]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

LOL! Great list.  How about Shireen for teaching Gily to read?  If not for that mistake, Jon  would just be Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's bastard, with no claim on the Iron Throne.  

Good call.

That little brat deserved it.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Good call.

That little brat deserved it.

She was a mass murderer by proxy. 

[UNOSEZ]

If the show had gone with more of a gradual process to Dany going dark.. I doubt it would been bad.. But at least for me it wouldve felt cheap.. Like this explains the genocide... Nothing but whatever lie she tells herself in her head really explains that and I doubt I'd enjoy scene upon scene of her lying to herself... I prefer that her violent impulses be shown every once in a while.. Lurking in the background ( but with a rational reason)  and at other times she fought her nature or was persuaded to fight it.. And then finally she just succumbed ( at a really momentous time)  sometimes ppl cheat... They care about their spouses.. Maybe they've flirted with others a bit.. They've been tempted but for a while they held out.. Then one day after an argument.. Or just a shitty day.. They catch the eye of someone.. And that flirting.. That before they could walk away from.. That temptation that they resisted.. Something inside of them just says.. "Fuck it" and boom their a cheater consequences to be dealt with later rationalization  for the deed already being cooked up... 

[Soup333]

41 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The writers suddenly made Dany so over the top evil, that there is no way Jon or anyone else with any honor could remain loyal to her.  If there had been a little more nuance in her brutality (like maybe she torches tens of thousands of innocents because it was the only way for her to win or win quickly) there would have been more suspense about whether Jon would turn against her.  But, the horrible writing in episode 5 will probably hurt the quality of episode 6 as well.  

No doubt. 

[Drogo]

Sometimes you have to take advice from people who...

• Never led you astray and always had your back
• May or may not be dead
• Never tried to poison your meals
• Never told your business to people nicknamed The Spider
• Aren't Lannisters
• Don't dry-heave after kissing you

ex:

Daario:  "Use your fucking dragons."

Jorah:  "Do what you have to do to win/survive.  Honorable people die all the damn time."

Olenna:  "♪We don't need no water, let this motherfucker burn♫"

Drogo:  "Kill everyone, destroy everythingggg, fuck em if they can't take a joke."

Missandei:  "Dracarys, bitches."

[Law Mom]

5 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

...Also, as someone who was married to a malignant narcissist for 16 years and spent two years divorcing him, I had to learn plenty about what makes them tick in order to recover from his abuse and to protect my children from being well and truly fucked up by him (this is a work in progress). Based on this research, as well as personal (not professional!) experience, I have to disagree with your assessment. It's easy enough to cherry-pick terms from the DSM that match up with Dany at her worst, but there are other key behaviors we haven't seen her display but that all narcissists exhibit:...

I am truly sorry. I wish you all the best, sister.

[Lady S.]

36 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

When she had the Unsullied and Dothraki screamers sack the cities in Essos...did the show claim they were humane and didnt hurt women&children the way they had been doing throughout their entire existences? I cant recall if there was a throwaway line to suggest that under Dany they were nice now or if it was just assumed that because Dany was in charge everyone was nice to civilians. 

Dany's only had a full Dothraki horde since s6 and they never sacked any cities for her before this, the most we saw was them killing the Harpies outside the gates of Meereen. The advantage of the Unsullied is supposed to be that they don't go on rampages of their own accord and they had specific orders about who to kill in Astapor. Dany's been threatening to destroy cities since s2 but she's never actually done so until now. 

Anyway, one thing I liked about the sack was that it wasn't just the inhuman brown foreigners raping and murdering. Every Westerosi except Jon and Davos ran right in there. (I honestly don't get how people could miss it was one of Jon's own men he killed trying to rape a woman, as the northmen/valemen and Dothraki look nothing alike.) It's interesting that because all Robb's battles happened offscreen, this is the first time we've really seen Stark soldiers battling Lannister soldiers and it happened in the context of the northmen killing men who'd already surrendered and murdering and raping women while the redcloaks were the good guys just fighting to protect the civilians.