S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[sacrebleu]

I saw the Sansa-Sandor scene more as-- if she hadn't gone through what she'd gone through she would never have been in a position to help give humanity a chance to defeat the AotD.

No Sansa-Ramsey marriage- no Battle of the Bastards - no Vale army helping to defeat the Ramsays and no Stark's recapturing Winterfell-- AotD marches south-- The End. 

I do appreciate the parallel between Ned keeping the Jon parentage truth a secret vs everyone who currently learns the secret and can't shut up about it.  But I think it speaks to the larger theme of the quest for power is ultimately corrupting. 

Targaryans ruled for generations-- eventually went mad.

Baratheon started a war over Lyanna-- and once in power, drank and whored for 20 years and basically bankrupted the kingdom.

Cersei blew up hundreds-- maybe thousands of people to make a seriously dubious claim to the throne.

Now they seem to be setting up Dany as being corrupted by the drive to reclaim what she sees as her destiny to rule.  

So, at this point-- if the series ends with a coronation-- of anyone-- it's merely perpetuating the system the entire series says leads to corruption and war. 

(I also agree with those who are pissed we didnt see any reaction from the non-Raven Starks to the news that their father-- universally believed to be one of the most honorable men in Westeros-- told a lie that changed the course of Westeros history for a generation-- not to mention their family dynamic their entire lives-- an we don't get a single word of dialogue about it)

Edited May 6, 2019 by sacrebleu

[Krazytoast]

Ok, this has been bugging me for awhile. But wouldn't Varys already know that there was a second Targaryen before Tyrion told him. He was on the Mad King's court and should have seen something as amiss if Rhaegar, the crown prince, was missing for a year. And in this episode he's surprised that Jon has a Targaryen father and a Stark mother. It boggles me.

[Misplaced]

8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

So yeah, even the TITLE is sexist. Because it means there won't be any new Starks because no male Starks to sire an heir, but hey, Sansa and Arya and Bran are all Starks and still alive.

As I recall, it was Arya who said in the Godswood “We are the last of the Starks.”  Which makes sense - Bran is Memory and not likely to have little memories, I can’t really see Sansa agreeing to marry and bear children given what she’s been through and we saw Arya reject that possibility with Gendry.  So I don’t think the title is sexist.

I went into this episode with no expectations but I have to say, I felt a steadily increasing sense of dread and tension throughout .... I wonder if that’s because after 23 years, I’ll finally know who sits on the Iron Throne?

Finally a thought on the North. I’ve always thought the KL-North divide is an intentional recreation of the rUk-Scotland independence movement, in part maybe because Martin is close friends with Diana Gabaldon (of Outlander game) and if you even mildly peruse those books you’ll see she is very much in favor of an independent Scotland.  So for me, the Sansa-Dany divide is a Westminster-Holyrood divide, as in, ain’t no way that relationship is gonna be friendly. I think Martin wants an independent North and that is what Sansa is all about. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Misplaced
Gendry-with-a-D !

[benteen]

In some ways, I liked this episode better than last week.  But there are still problems...

-Not getting the scene where Bran reveals the truth to Arya and Sansa is inexcusable.  I so wanted to see that scene and feel like we were robbed of it.  The scene was excellent leading up to that.  I understand why Jon told them but yeah...never tell Sansa anything.

-Jon gave Ghost to Tormund.  WTF?!!!!  They should have killed Ghost off seasons ago if they weren't going to use them and save the money and the whining about how difficult it is to CGI him.  If Jon had left Ghost behind to protect Bran and Sansa, I would have been fine with that.  But Jon treats Ghost like an old junker car.  BAH!

-I've rarely liked what D&D have done with Jaime and the success of this character on the show has been due alone to the performance of NCW.  I'm hoping he's going to King's Landing to protect from Cersei like he did with the Mad King but I'm not holding my breath.

-D&D continuing to try to convince everyone that Sansa is so smart and such a boss as they continue desperately to apologize for their unilateral decision to have Ramsay rape her several seasons ago.

Sansa and Dany became a dick-swinging contest between two women.  Sansa, you DO owe Dany for her help and trying to dismiss it by saying Arya killed the Night King made it even worse.  But at the same time, Dany, you don't throw your army that has been through a brutal, world-ending battle into another one three weeks later.  Dany already F'd up during the Battle of Winterfell but jumping into it too early...she's terrible with tactics.  Jon really needed to get in there and talk some sense in Dany but I guess that was too much to ask.

I liked the opening funeral pyre scene a lot and Jon's speech.  The celebrations were a lot of fun and the whole episode featured some great interactions.  Poor Tormund...I'm glad he's still alive though.

I had a feeling that Gendry would be named the Lord of Storm's End and it's the correct move.  Very happy with that.  I only wish the show would have acknowledged that he's also a blood relative of Dany.

I felt bad for him when Arya rejected him but to be honest, it was completely inspected and in character for her.  For the very beginning, she made it clear that wasn't the life for her and I always expected that after the war, she was going to become, basically, a wandering King's Justice, going from place to place and meeting out justice to whomever deserved it.  I feel bad for her though because she's too broken to have a normal life.  I don't mean royal marriage but I mean I don't think she'll ever find the peace that she's looking for.  I was surprised when she said though that she never intended to return to Winterfell.

She's definitely not killing Cersei though.  She killed the Night King...she's not going to get the other big kill too.

I had forgotten that Sansa and the Hound hadn't spoken in many years.  Good scene between the two.

Loved the good-byes with Jon and Sam, Gilly and Tormund.  But damn, Ghost...

Euron's attack came out of nowhere but it was pretty damn cool and I'm glad we got that naval battle.  Great job, show.

Varys was definitely the all-start tonight now that he's back in his element.  His scenes were tremendous and Tyrion got to share a number of them himself.

Dany probably should have rained down on Cersei when she was exposed like that and ended it.  I really did love the look of King's Landing outside the gates.

Like I said, really good in places but I'm still finding a number of things to be disappointing.

Edited May 6, 2019 by benteen

[Mardo2044]

Someone upthread already said it, but after reading everything will take me too long to find it... This is likely last time Stark siblings are together and hence the name.  Makes me said, even Ghost was sent away.  All Things Must End, I guess.

[Haleth]

8 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

As I recall, it was Arya who said in the Godswood “We are the last of the Starks.”  Which makes sense - Bran is Memory and not likely to have little memories, I can’t really see Sansa agreeing to marry and bear children given what she’s been through and we saw Arya reject that possibility with Gentry.  So I don’t think the title is sexist.

And I'm not sure she even meant forever, just that right then the four of them were the last of the Starks.  

[Mardo2044]

5 minutes ago, benteen said:

I I feel bad for her though because she's too broken to have a normal life.  I don't mean royal marriage but I mean I don't think she'll ever find the peace that she's looking for.  I was surprised when she said though that she never intended to return to Winterfell.

I think she shad she will not return, and I think it meant she believes she dies in KL.  I hope helping Hound kill Mountain.  (She originally was my hope to be sole survivor end of series but after killing NK, and is the "Last of the Starks" I think the above now)

[benteen]

One other thing that annoyed me…Gendry was an unacknowledged bastard so he had no last name.  If he had one, it would be Gendry WATERS, not Gendry Rivers.  That’s pure laziness by the writers and editors there and one that should have been easy not to make.

[Tryangle]

9 hours ago, jade.black said:

How did Cersei know Missandei meant anything?

Was Missandei with Dany et al., at the Dragonpit? Cersei or Qyburn would likely have made a note of all of Dany's supporters at that parley.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

And Jaime is so going to kill Cersei.  Good.  Maybe it will be like that famous scene in that famous book/movie where everyone gets a stab.

Murder on the Orient Express? Yeah, I definitely think everyone in the Seven Kingdoms deserves a shot at her. They may even put in money for it, highest bidder goes first and so on. The proceeds go to the reparations of the country torn up by years of war.

Still not buying the Mad Queen sell, but for Dany’s sake she should have flown past Dragonstone on onward to Essos. Who cares about an ugly chair that is her #birthright when she had managed to conquer and rule overseas on her own merit. Speaking of overseas, man was it a misfire to leave army strategist Daario there.

[Tryangle]

33 minutes ago, benteen said:

One other thing that annoyed me…Gendry was an unacknowledged bastard so he had no last name.  If he had one, it would be Gendry WATERS, not Gendry Rivers.  That’s pure laziness by the writers and editors there and one that should have been easy not to make.

Seriously. Beyond poor form. Who vets the scripts anyway?

By the way Meera Reed called in. She says that Jon's dismissal of Ghost was the coldest thing she's ever witnessed.

I don't give a crap about Euron on this show, but surely he will ask Cersei how the hell Tyrion knew she was bumped up when he left KL long before Euron's sexytime?

As for Missandei's fate, good lord. The show teased the demise of Grey Worm last episode to quell the Happily Ever After on Naath bit, then he survived. And of course we get a scene of the twosome holding hands and smiling (Jacob Anderson has never smiled more in this role!). So of course, the show-runners tear it away from us. And because I think Nathalie Emmanuel is a living goddess, I was all ARRRRRRRGH at how it all played out. Grey Worm, let's go Super Saiyan on these Lannister nasties.

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, sacrebleu said:

I saw the Sansa-Sandor scene more as-- if she hadn't gone through what she'd gone through she would never have been in a position to help give humanity a chance to defeat the AotD.

like bran and theon last week, everything she experienced was necessary to bring her to where she is now.

[Sakura12]

The show managed one thing, made me want GRRM to finish the books to see what he does with it. Since the shows end is looking to be disappointing. 

[spaceghostess]

9 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

Dany is the best written character at this point, IMO. And her arc here seems absolutely straight from GRRM and has been built towards this. You can be upset about it, but it has been hinted at in the books and show. 

"Hinting" isn't the same as actual character development, which, IMO, is sorely lacking. Dany has been portrayed as a hero throughout the show, and, like other "heroic" characters on said show, has executed or dealt otherwise harshly with her enemies. Yet she's the only one who's being rushed off the deep end with extreme prejudice in the eleventh hour. If I believed that everyone who'd ever had a crazy parent were doomed to be crazy as well, then the half-assed narrative shortcuts being taken here might sit better with me. But I don't, so they don't. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by spaceghostess
grammar stuff

[jeansheridan]

7 hours ago, bijoux said:

I think it's been plenty clear in the show as well. Maybe not so much the sexual part, but the smitten part for sure. Dude was mooning at her birthplace seasons ago for God's sake.

Yeah, I had no problem with the sex or him being mean to her as he left. He needed to walk away from love and relative safety to do this thing. Plus honestly, I was wondering what he would do in the North. What is his purpose there? Jaime isn't an idle man. He needs a role. 

I kind of hope Brienne chases him down. With Poddrick. Heh.

The Ghost dismissal bothers me less than most. They haven't been together all that much. Even in the books Ghost disappears into the wild for long stretches. By releasing him, Jon has probably given him a longer life. Nymeria is certainly living HER best life. 

Plus when I leave for work in the morning sometimes I need to not look at my dogs. 

[Maximum Taco]

2 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

The Ghost dismissal bothers me less than most. They haven't been together all that much. Even in the books Ghost disappears into the wild for long stretches. By releasing him, Jon has probably given him a longer life. Nymeria is certainly living HER best life. 

Plus when I leave for work in the morning sometimes I need to not look at my dogs. 

Also the direwolves are meant to serve as representations of a characters "Starkness" or "Northernness"

Robb - Doesn't lose Grey Wind until he dies. He stays a Stark all the way through his story. 

Sansa - Loses Lady when she sides with Joff over Arya. She has a southron mentality at this point and is actively rejecting her Northern roots. She rediscovers them later, but the loss of the wolf here is still significant. 

Arya - She sends Nym away, but doesn't actually ever lose her. And when they meet again she sets her free in the wild, like she wants to be. She's still Arya Stark of Winterfell, she was always Arya Stark of Winterfell, but she belongs inside and outside of that definition. 

Bran - Loses Summer when he fully becomes the 3ER and ceases to be Bran Stark. 

Rickon - Handled poorly in the show. But in the books it seems like he's being dominated by Shaggydog. Shaggy imprints his own feralness on Rickon, to steel him for survival. And when Davos is sent to find Rickon, the wolf is supposed to serve as proof of his identity. 

Jon - "I've never been a Stark." I think when he says that in this episode it's the first time he means it. Before he's accepted he's not a Stark, in name, but has always felt like one in spirit. Sending Ghost North as he heads South to fight for a southron Queen against the wishes of his family, could there be a more pointed rejection of his Starkness? Even more so if he remains in the south as either Dany's husband or King Aegon VI. 

[domina89]

Some are hating on Jon about the Ghost situation but it is just more character assassination on the part of D & D because they didn't want to spend more CGI money having Jon in an actual scene with Ghost.  Let's place the blame where it belongs...

My heart broke for Rhaegal.  He finally made it back to Dragonstone where all three dragons were happy only to die horribly.  Cruel to him and to us.

I'm also in the camp of not blaming Dany one bit if she levels KL.  Sometimes the only way to purify something is by fire- Mel was right about that.

[RedheadZombie]

12 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

 Missandei nooooooooo! Figured her and Greyworm couldn't get a happy ending on butterfly island. I doubt Grey worm will live but hopefully he takes some fuckers out with him.

Damn, Jon could've at least given Ghost a cuddle and some pets before sending him off.

The politics between who deserves the throne, Dany or Jon, is one hell of a clusterfuck just waiting to happen. Not looking forward to that shit. I hope if they do press the kingdom on Jon, he totally shocks them all and breaks Westeros into seven self-governing kingdoms before he deuces out. 

I really can't wait until Cersei, Qyburn, and Euron get what's coming to them.

How about some care for his obviously torn off ear?  They've totally abandoned the direwolves to worship the dragons.  I know the dragons are war machines and essential in battle, but they're cheaping out on the final season and it's ridiculous.  

[benteen]

Why not hire a Faceless Man to kill Cersei?  Or better yet, send your own Faceless Man in Arya.

Edited May 6, 2019 by benteen

[Maximum Taco]

22 minutes ago, benteen said:

Why not hire a Faceless Man to kill Cersei?  Or better yet, send your own Faceless Man in Arya.

The Faceless Men charge a price that increases based on who you want dead, and how much you can afford to pay. Also this is not necessarily a set price in gold. The Faceless Men could ask for a favor done, or all the money you will ever make for the rest of your life, or even a life in exchange (your own or someone else's.) 

In the books Littlefinger remarks that the price the Faceless Men charge (in gold) to kill a common merchant is enough to hire two armies of sellswords. This is why Robert doesn't send a Faceless Man after Dany in season 1, the price to kill a princess would likely bankrupt the kingdom, or worse. 

If a Queen asked for a Queen to be assassinated, the price would likely be unfathomable. What if the Faceless Men asked for the Kingdom's treasury? What if they asked for Drogon? Sure, a Dragon is not a slave, but what if they asked her to kill Drogon, in exchange?

She could send Arya, but AFAIK no one knows Arya has the skills of a Faceless Man. And I doubt Arya is eager to be forthcoming with that knowledge. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

The Faceless Men charge a price that increases based on who you want dead, and how much you can afford to pay. Also this is not necessarily a set price in gold. The Faceless Men could ask for a favor done, or all the money you will ever make for the rest of your life, or even a life in exchange (your own or someone else's.) 

In the books Littlefinger remarks that the price the Faceless Men charge (in gold) to kill a common merchant is enough to hire two armies of sellswords. This is why Robert doesn't send a Faceless Man after Dany in season 1, the price tom kill a princess would likely bankrupt the kingdom, or worse. 

If a Queen asked for a Queen to be assassinated, the price would likely be unfathomable. What if the Faceless Men asked for the Kingdom's treasury? What if they asked for Drogon? Sure, a Dragon is not a slave, but what if they asked her to kill Drogon, in exchange?

She could send Arya, but AFAIK no one knows Arya has the skills of a Faceless Man. And I doubt Arya is eager to be forthcoming with that knowledge. 

How many people know that Arya is a faceless man?  She told Sansa, but Sansa seemed to understand that no better than understanding what it means for Bran to be the 3ER.

But, assuming Sansa knows, perhaps only she, Jaquen H'agar (or whoever he is) and Walder Frey's female servant and widow know, and they might not have even understood what was going on.   

[DigitalCount]

I'm also a bit puzzled about this "out of nowhere" accusation being levied. I remember having this discussion on TWoP during Season 2 when people weren't sure that Dany had done enough to make sure Doreah was guilty before locking her in a vault to die alongside Daxos. I remember people (myself included) pointing out that Hizdad spoke out against crucifying the children. That the man who was eaten by Rhaegal and Viserion may have had nothing to do with the decision to crucify children, as the head of his house may have been another of Dany's victims.

Beyond the in-story indications, we've also gotten Doylist support for this theory. There's no reason to use Dutch angles when Dany is "meting out justice" if it's justified, yet they did exactly that when she killed the Tarlys. They deliberately had her filmed from an upward, off-kilter angle that made her look like a giant with empty, half-lidded eyes, merciless eyes. And while I disagreed with the decision, they still had Sam show real emotion for a father who promised to murder him if he didn't essentially murder himself. And yet it still rang true when he did.

Like Stannis in 509 I think this is one of the situations where the books provide even more support than the show for this idea, and the show has it in spades. I'm not surprised at all, though I think I was a little shocked when I realized that all those things were actually hints and actually intentional. I would have been fine chalking it up to them thinking she's just that cool and not realizing how it came off to have her feed a man to her dragons just to flex. I guess I should have known better.

[AshleyN]

I think Dany has always been portrayed as skirting the line between strong hand and tyrant, and there have been a few times she's had to be talked down from her "burn first, ask questions later" instincts. Tbh, when it comes to the show at least I've never really thought of it as Targaryan madness so much as a result of the circumstances surrounding her path to power -- everything she has she's had to take by force, and the situations she found herself in were ones where any sign of weakness would have led to death. I mean, It's not like she acquired the Unsullied army or the Dothraki though measured negotiation.

Personally, I don't think she's mad so much as she's a lot more suited to conquering than ruling* (something that's been specifically pointed out in universe, by Daario I believe). I think that's why she's having trouble with Westeros -- in her previous conquests she never really cared about spilling blood or maintaining the favour of anyone other than the slaves she was freeing really. Here she's basically trying to take the throne while pissing off as few people as possible, which isn't really something she's ever had to worry about before.

*And for all the Mereen plot was supposed to be about her learning to do the latter, it ended with the same resolution as every other problem Dany has encountered: Fire and Blood.

[KungFuBunny]

52 minutes ago, benteen said:

Why not hire a Faceless Man to kill Cersei?  Or better yet, send your own Faceless Man in Arya.

I'd like to hope that Arya goes to KL and gets inside and kills Qyburn. She can then use Qyburn's face/body to get close to Cersei & The Mountain.

Because she killed the NK I doubt they'll let her get in another big kill.

But maybe as Qyburn she can inject The Mountain with some poison which would give the Hound some chance in a fight. That's why The Hound is going to KL for one last showdown with his brother?

Poisoning the wine would be great too - to take out both Cersei and Euron

[RedheadZombie]

14 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

 Missandei nooooooooo! Figured her and Greyworm couldn't get a happy ending on butterfly island. I doubt Grey worm will live but hopefully he takes some fuckers out with him.

Damn, Jon could've at least given Ghost a cuddle and some pets before sending him off.

The politics between who deserves the throne, Dany or Jon, is one hell of a clusterfuck just waiting to happen. Not looking forward to that shit. I hope if they do press the kingdom on Jon, he totally shocks them all and breaks Westeros into seven self-governing kingdoms before he deuces out. 

I really can't wait until Cersei, Qyburn, and Euron get what's coming to them.

I've come to the conclusion that this is the "sweet" the show runners were referring to.  All the good people will get the bitter.

[proserpina65]

14 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I have no words other than this season has been letting me down and this episode was no exception. I am not excited for the last two episodes but still am a fan of the show. More so, for the characters I love and not the ones I hate (Lannisters and Urine).

For me, the first 3 episodes were fantastic, but this one definitely underwhelmed.  Did no one think of Cersei laying a trap at Dragonstone?  Really?

And Sansa may have her issues, but she was absolutely right about the foolishness of marching off to war against Cersei with an army of tired and/or wounded men, and obviously she was the only one who's actually had a conversation with the various captains of that army.

I was fine before with Dany as queen, but Jon would definitely be a more humane option.  Varys cares about the people, and how they're affected by whomever is sitting on the throne, so his willingness to consider other options makes sense to me.

14 hours ago, mjc570 said:

it didn't occur to Daenerys to circle around Euron's fleet and burn the ships from the rear (all the dragon killer harpoons were facing front). 

Yeah, that also boggles the mind.

14 hours ago, Enigma X said:

while the other is willing to die for her again

We don't actually know that.  We only know that Jaime feels compelled to return to Kings' Landing.  I'm holding out hope that it's to kill Cersei.

13 hours ago, anamika said:

How much time do these soldiers require to recover from 30 minutes of fighting? Sansa is talking like they spend a week fighting the dead or something. It was over so quick and the soldiers who did the most fighting were the Unsullied.

Just because it was an hour's worth of action on our tv doesn't mean it wasn't a lot longer in Westeros time; the action was condensed, not real time.  And a lot of the fighters were wounded by the end.  So yes, it takes time to recover from that, and Dany and Jon would've known that if they'd talked to the captains as Sansa suggested.

13 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Who sold Dany out? How did Euron know that she’d be coming back to Dragonstone right at that time?

Anyone with sense would've planned a trap at Dragonstone.  I suspect there were scouts keeping an eye out for possible sightings of Dany's ships.  The Targaryen sails were pretty distinctive.  My complaint was that no one on Team Starkargaryen considered the possibility.

[Maximum Taco]

6 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Anyone with sense would've planned a trap at Dragonstone.  I suspect there were scouts keeping an eye out for possible sightings of Dany's ships.  The Targaryen sails were pretty distinctive.  My complaint was that no one on Team Starkargaryen considered the possibility.

My complaint is that Cersei didn't retake the island entirely. 

I mean, Dany has sailed North with all her strength, at the very least Cersei should have had the Iron Fleet sail to Dragonstone and sacked the castle and put everyone to the sword. It's in her literal fucking backyard. Why would anyone leave their enemy with a foothold?

They should've arrived at Dragonstone to find the castle in ruins and everyone who didn't sail with them dead (or I guess turned into Saltwives, cause Cersei don't care what Euron does with those guys)

At most I think Cersei should've pushed the envelope and set a garrison at Dragonstone with Dragon murdering ballistas all around the island. But that might not have been feasible if they wanted to use all their resources to better protect King's Landing. But sacking the castle and killing everyone there is a minimal commitment. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[benteen]

They've definitely shown hints of Dany's dark side and it's always been apparent that she doesn't like to be questioned or challenged.

[proserpina65]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

How can men with broken bones fight? They are going to be lying on a bed and swing a sword? Obviously Dany is taking with her the men who are fit enough to fight.

And thus have a much smaller army because she wouldn't wait for some of the injured to heal.

11 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa said there's no food in WF right?

No, she did not say that.  In fact, she said she'd managed to get enough provisions to get Winterfell through the winter before she knew she'd have to feed Dany's army.

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

For a show that likes wearing its feminist badge loud and proud, yall sure got off on having good guy Varys saying that Jon was the best ruler cuz he had a penis.

I didn't take it as Varys saying Jon would be the best ruler because he was a man, but that he'd be more accepted than Dany because he was a man.  Basically because Westeros' society is patriarchal, and yes, sexist.

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

People are not buying this sudden push into the Mad Queen ending,

I don't think it's sudden.  There've been scenes over the seasons where Dany has had to be talked out of following her more murderous instincts.  I do think the ramping up hasn't been gradual enough to be thoroughly convincing, though.

[Bryce Lynch]

Varys saying Dany couldn't rule because she didn't have a cock is like Tyrion saying Jon couldn't rule because he is too short.  

[proserpina65]

22 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

My complaint is that Cersei didn't retake the island entirely. 

I mean, Dany has sailed North with all her strength, at the very least Cersei should have had the Iron Fleet sail to Dragonstone and sacked the castle and put everyone to the sword. It's in her literal fucking backyard. Why would anyone leave their enemy with a foothold?

They should've arrived at Dragonstone to find the castle in ruins and everyone who didn't sail with them dead (or I guess turned into Saltwives, cause Cersei don't care what Euron does with those guys)

At most I think Cersei should've pushed the envelope and set a garrison at Dragonstone with Dragon murdering ballistas all around the island. But that might not have been feasible if they wanted to use all their resources to better protect King's Landing. But sacking the castle and killing everyone there is a minimal commitment. 

That's definitely what I would've done.

[Oscirus]

More I think about it, more I think that the only reason for the Parley was to add to Dinkelage's emmy reel. Admittedly, it was a pretty good job.  

Anybody with any sense realizes this parley is not going to work so why bother talking past that point.  I do like that Dany's pretty much saying that at some point enough's enough. Time to take that throne by any means necessary.

[Drumpf1737]

10 hours ago, rmontro said:

Do you think Sansa would have had the guts to walk up and talk to Qyburn like Tyrion did?  With all that weaponry trained on her?  I think not.

I think Sansa would have anticipated an ambush making that stupid interaction unnecessary. This is the problem! Tyrion and Varys are so concerned with who's on the throne that they cannot provide good battle plans.  Why the fuck does Tyrion keep saying Cersei isn't a monster? She's a MONSTER. She's always been a monster and that blind spot will lead to the demise of the Dragon Queen. 

Sansa is able to step back and look objectively at what's happening in a way none of Dany's other advisors can. I know everyone wants to hate on Sansa and the writers but I prefer my shows unpredictable.

[Misplaced]

Oh and while I'm at it: total throwback to Arya and Gendry in Season 3, when Gendry tells Arya that he's staying with the Brotherhood.  Gendry says "I never had a family."  Arya's (great) response, "*I* can be your family."  Gendry: "But you wouldn't be my family.  You would be my lady."  

I re-watched that season 3 episode before Season 8 premiered and totally called this dialogue as marriage foreshadowing.  Which of course happens when Gendry asks Arya to be his lady!  And she says "I'm not a lady."  Genius.  Maisie Williams, just genius.  Great great scene. 

[bijoux]

18 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I don't think it's sudden.  There've been scenes over the seasons where Dany has had to be talked out of following her more murderous instincts.  I do think the ramping up hasn't been gradual enough to be thoroughly convincing, though.

This! It’s not that it’s impossible to see there being something in her that could turn to madness, it’s that the storytelling isn’t gradual enough. Plus the fact that some of her current moves are being given the edit of oh, noes, she’s gonna blow when that’s not what we’ve been getting from her this season. 

[Oscirus]

11 minutes ago, Drumpf1737 said:

I think Sansa would have anticipated an ambush making that stupid interaction unnecessary. This is the problem! Tyrion and Varys are so concerned with who's on the throne that they cannot provide good battle plans.  Why the fuck does Tyrion keep saying Cersei isn't a monster? She's a MONSTER. She's always been a monster and that blind spot will lead to the demise of the Dragon Queen. 

Sansa is able to step back and look objectively at what's happening in a way none of Dany's other advisors can. I know everyone wants to hate on Sansa and the writers but I prefer my shows unpredictable.

Sansa wanted to wait until the soldiers got better. So no they wouldn't have gotten ambushed at sea, but at winterfell instead. 

[Drumpf1737]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Sansa wanted to wait until the soldiers got better. So no they wouldn't have gotten ambushed at sea, but at winterfell instead

Actually you don't know that. There's an advantage to fighting on your own turf. For example you don't lose your Queen's closest advisor and friend but what do I know I'm a girl. ::eyeroll::

[stagmania]

42 minutes ago, benteen said:

They've definitely shown hints of Dany's dark side and it's always been apparent that she doesn't like to be questioned or challenged.

Which is true for every single leader we've seen portrayed on this show, except for maybe weak little kitten Tommen.

[FierceCritter]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

The Ghost dismissal bothers me less than most. They haven't been together all that much. Even in the books Ghost disappears into the wild for long stretches. By releasing him, Jon has probably given him a longer life. Nymeria is certainly living HER best life. 

Plus when I leave for work in the morning sometimes I need to not look at my dogs. 

This. I absolutely LOVE animals. And initially, I also thought it not cool that they didn't have an emotional farewell between Jon and Ghost.

But if Ghost stays at Winterfell, he's going to try to be with Jon, and Jon's going to go places and do things that could mean death for Ghost. So if he sends him north, Jon knows Ghost will be free in his element, able to choose where he goes and who he's with at any given time. So I'm ok with it in the end.

Jon not giving Ghost a tearful hug at the end may be more for himself as well. So he won't change his mind and want Ghost to stick around where he'll more likely end up dead.

And I have a 15-year-old cat going very senile very suddenly. I have to leave for work seeing him wander aimlessly and yowling piteously, JS. I have either cried as I lock the door or had to just grab my briefcase and go without looking back. 😞

[spaceghostess]

28 minutes ago, bijoux said:

This! It’s not that it’s impossible to see there being something in her that could turn to madness, it’s that the storytelling isn’t gradual enough. Plus the fact that some of her current moves are being given the edit of oh, noes, she’s gonna blow when that’s not what we’ve been getting from her this season. 

Yes, yes, and yes. Hints and clues have to be developed into a consistent character throughline. What we're being served instead is madness as deus ex machina, which is among the worst forms of fictional character assassination.

Edited May 6, 2019 by spaceghostess
typo

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Actually you don't know that. There's an advantage to fighting on your own turf. For example you don't lose your Queen's closest advisor and friend but what do I know I'm a girl. ::eyeroll::

No you lose more. After what Im sure would be a prolonged siege, you can say bye bye to winterfell, lose the war, and say hello to more cersei prisoners after she wins. 

[Misplaced]

(Random episode observation: someone posted this in the Media thread - I checked the ep on my DVR and yes indeedy it is there!)

ETA: For The Cup

Edited May 6, 2019 by Misplaced
Sarcasm

[go4luca]

 I know not everyone agrees (it's the varying opinions that keep this place interesting), but I had to call my dog over for a hug after Jon couldn't even say goodbye to Ghost.  It broke my heart seeing Ghost's expression.

[MaggieG]

I actually thought Gendry's proposal was very sweet. If Arya doesn't want him, I'll take him.

I thought Jaime and Brienne kissing was awkward.

I loved Tyrion just being over Qyburn and walking past him to address Cersei directly.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

I think Sansa would have anticipated an ambush making that stupid interaction unnecessary. This is the problem! Tyrion and Varys are so concerned with who's on the throne that they cannot provide good battle plans.  Why the fuck does Tyrion keep saying Cersei isn't a monster? She's a MONSTER. She's always been a monster and that blind spot will lead to the demise of the Dragon Queen. 

Sansa is able to step back and look objectively at what's happening in a way none of Dany's other advisors can. I know everyone wants to hate on Sansa and the writers but I prefer my shows unpredictable.

What really bugs me is that his logic is that she can not be a monster because she loves her children and that love has to be pure. Cersei love like a narcissist her children are extensions of herself. She spoiled Joffrey, bringing out the worst in him, killed the woman that Tommen loved because she was jealous, and thought her daughter was good so that meant Cersei was also good. 

Tyrion has been a horrible advisor to Dany and part of it is because he still thinks his sister can be reasonable and capable of thinking beyond her own desires. It is particularly bad because he should be the one who is most aware of her treachery.

I loved the beautiful girl from the island of butterflies. I feel horrible for Grey Worm. He might win the award for shittiest life ever but it was all worth it because it led to her. He now has lost his world beyond Dany.

Edited May 6, 2019 by qtpye

[proserpina65]

46 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Which is true for every single leader we've seen portrayed on this show, except for maybe weak little kitten Tommen.

But they've done so more for Dany than for any of the other "good guys".  She's definitely been shown as someone who really needs to be talked down from her rash initial impulses.

[Sakura12]

Dany has Dragons. If any of the other characters had access to dragons when they got mad, you can't tell me they wouldn't want to use them on their enemies and have to be talked out of it. 

[mac123x]

Was it just me, or did the walls / gate of Kings Landing look completely different than it did in the last episode of season 7?  I reminded me more of Dany and the baby dragons approaching the gates of Qarth.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

But they've done so more for Dany than for any of the other "good guys".  She's definitely been shown as someone who really needs to be talked down from her rash initial impulses.

The same was true about just about every other ruler or would be ruler, but many of them could not be talked down.

Cersei

Joffrey

Robert Baratheon

Stannis 

Mance Rayder

Even Jon had to be talked out of deserting the NW.  He also couldn't be talked out of letting the Wildlings through the wall, though it was a good decision.  In addition, he impulsively charged at Ramsay's forces to try to save Rickon (totally understandable, but impulsive).

Who are the truly calm a rational leaders in Westeros?  Maybe Tywin, but he was also evil.  Ned, but he was naive.   

[proserpina65]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The same was true about just about every other ruler or would be ruler, but many of them could not be talked down.

Cersei

Joffrey

Robert Baratheon

Stannis 

Mance Rayder

Even Jon had to be talked out of deserting the NW.  He also couldn't be talked out of letting the Wildlings through the wall, though it was a good decision.  In addition, he impulsively charged at Ramsay's forces to try to save Rickon (totally understandable, but impulsive).

Who are the truly calm a rational leaders in Westeros?  Maybe Tywin, but he was also evil.  Ned, but he was naive.   

Most of the people you list are not good guys, which I did specify.  And the couple who at least nominally qualify did not have fire-breathing dragons with which they could wipe out hundreds of people at a time.

Imo, the show has sufficiently established the possibility of Dany having strains of the family madness just below the surface.  I've said what I thought, and why, and I'll leave it here rather than repeat myself.