S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[millennium]

5 hours ago, 3jt said:

I am really angry with the way that Danny is being written. I know that taking the IT has been what has gotten Danny through a whole lot of monkey business, but EVERY DAMN CONVERSATION WITH HER IS I AM THE QUEEN!!  I MUST RULE!!!! We know her, we know what she has been through- these other people DO NOT. Of course no one in the North trusts her. To them she is just another MF telling them that she is their ruler. Sansa has zero reason to trust or like Danny. Jon, as a King,  was sent south to get dragon glass. He comes back with this chick and tells everyone that he is no longer the King, and we are all following her now. I see everyone's side. Mainly- I see that the writers are not being true to characters that I give a shit about.

You make a good point.   Until now, all of Danaerys's followers have seen with their own eyes what she can do, whether the slave people or Mireen who saw her kill the masters on their behalf, the Unsullied whom she unconditionally freed, or the Dothraki who watched in trembling wonder as she strolled out of the inferno.

What do the humble folk of Starkville have?   Jon's word.

Reason #438 why HBO did this series an injustice by truncating it to just six final episodes. 

[tv-talk]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

it being okay for Dany to use WMD to take out Hitler, is Cersei like Hitler here? What I mean is, we know she's an evil woman and we've seen her blow up a sept to take out her personal enemies and she seems like she'd do just about anything to get the throne, but is she invading other places and committing genocide etc., making extreme measures possibly the better choice?

This is a really great point that I wish the show was addressing better. There's basically no argument to make that the people of KL will be better off under Dany is 15,000 of them have to be incinerated to get there and their city basically destroyed. It's been said many times in the books and the show that the vast majority of the Westerosi dont really care who is on the thrown, they just want to be safe and fed with a roof over their head. It seems they get that with Cersei so why should they actually want Dany? The show seems to be leaning into the "madness" of Dany but how about the point she's a destroyer and in the case of KL there's not much argument for her to do her thing the way there was in the various slave cities?

[hypnotoad]

Quote

Exactly. The men wouldn't need to hit on her, but we're to believe men or women aren't even interested in talking to her?! There are these unique things she knows all about, called dragons...which everyone previously thought were mythical. And they want us to think people have no interest in where they came from, how she handles them, and whether she's offering free rides? 

This. So much this. It makes no sense at all that after a huge battle in which she fought with them and lost so many troops, that people wouldn't be talking to her - asking about the dragons and so forth. Foreigner or not, once you share an experience like that - it's different at least for a while. That is human nature. There would have been plenty of raised mugs of wine to her too. The writing is just so lazy. Like Dany forgetting about the iron fleet or not being able to see the iron fleet from the air or Urine being able to shoot a flying dragon in the head with that ungainly weapon with no radar or how Urine and the gang managed to find Missy in the water ... and on and on.

Quote

Mainly- I see that the writers are not being true to characters that I give a shit about .

Yeah I am with you there. Dany has been one of my favorites from way back in Season 1 and in the books and I am terribly disappointed in where this is heading. And if D&D got this mad queen ending from GRRM? Pffft ... I won't be bothered to read the next books if he manages to actually write them.

I mean I was feeling fairly good about this season and then this episode hit and wow I have had a complete turn around. I didn't work Monday but was there today and the reaction from all my GoT pals is exactly like mine and so many here.

[TaurusRose]

6 hours ago, Absurda said:

Forgot to say, Re:  Jon and Ghost

That was the least satisfying goodbye I have ever seen.  We can't even see Jon saying goodbye to Ghost or that he'll miss him or anything???  What, is Kit Harrington allergic to or terrified of dogs?  Just telling Tormond:  Take this raggedy, beat up, unneeded wolf back with you so he can run around on a farm up north or something.

Two things.  First, you realize Ghost is a CGI creation, right?  I don't think Kit Harington has anything to do with the oddness of the scene.  And second, CGI Ghost is a direwolf, not a dog.   I love Ghost and have missed him a lot, but it looks like he fought the good fight and SURVIVED!  He deserves a well earned break from the idiocy south of (what's left of) the wall.

[tv-talk]

11 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

And if D&D got this mad queen ending from GRRM?

I'd say it's pretty much in character for Dany to torch all the innocents in KL to get Cersei. Is that madness? I'm not sure but I definitely hope the show explores the dynamic of Jon, Varys, and Tyrion being against it as Dany and Greyworm are all about it.  I think it would be pretty realistic for no one from Westeros to want KL burned out. 

[TaurusRose]

6 hours ago, Wendy said:

IMO Dany was in a rush to leave because she didn't want Jon to tell Sansa and Arya about his birth. The sooner they left, the less time he got. She never thought for a second how this will affect the outcome of the war to come. She is a very rushed person with poor thinking skills. 

That scene between Daenerys and Jon sealed it for me. First she comes all conciliatory, she is not mad anymore, she is all meekly and humble, she had a purpose in mind and it was to convince Jon to keep the secret and to swear Sam and Bran to secrecy. She used her sex wiles and almost got away with it, but then when Jon told her that he needed to tell Arya and Sansa, the sweet loving Daenerys changed, now she was pleading, she was trying to make him see that it will affect them as a couple, she said "I just want it to me like it was before between us", dangling the loving relationship in front of his nose. Once Jon let her know that his family was important and they can work together meaning he was still going to tell them the secret, then Daenerys mood changed completely, now you got to see the real Daenerys, the one who said, " We can work together, I just told you how" with that expression in her face and the tone of voice that indicated that this was not a request, it was a threat. Jon even seemed surprised for a second there before she left. 

That Daenerys is the one that Sansa sees, the one who manipulates, the one who uses any means necessary to get what she wants and when she doesn't get it then she threatens. No wonder her advisors and even Jon seem to be scared of her. They have spent time with her, they know her, they know her reactions when she is angry, but they have no other way to deal with it than to pacify her, cuddle her and reassure her even when she is wrong. 

Jon as Warden of the North should have thought about his soldiers, they needed rest. He should have been the one bringing this concern up, when it was obvious he wouldn't say anything then Sansa had to do it, instead of considering it Daenerys again reacts with puss in her face and a tone of voice that let anyone know that she is the Queen and her voice is final. I think that is when Arya made up her mind about Daenerys. I figure previous to that Area was on the fence but that probably sealed the deal. 

I have to admit I was taken aback by Daenerys's tone and expression with Jon as well.  I don't think that Jon is afraid of her as much as I think he has been hit with a lot (in a relatively short period of time) and he's trying to reconcile a lot of conflicting information not to mention feelings.  I expect there is a blow out coming between D&J (maybe wishful thinking on my part since nothing I've expected to see has come to pass so far). But she was unable to get Jon to bend the knee until he felt she was worthy of it.  She may see that steely, stubborn side to him again if she proves herself unworthy.

[UNOSEZ]

I think we are all dreading/ preparing for the scene where Jon looks at Dany and says don't do this and she stares back... Then flies off to do something.. That probably won't end well for a bunch of ppl.... 

I'm also hoping for a scene where qyburn is alone with cersei and after some light talking... He stabs her.. And its Arya.. Or maybe in the cruelest world.. Alone somewhere Cersei sees one of her kids... Let's go with Tommen and he blames her for... Well... Everything.. And then he stabs her... And its Arya... Remember she fed walder Frey his sons with no compunction...and  her last words to cersei as she said after finishing off house Frey... The North Remembers.... That personally would be the most fitting.. I don't care that it may be fan servicey.. I don't care if she already killed the NK... That was a necessary detour... This.. Would be the culmination of her work and I pray to the 7... The LOL.. The drowned God and The many faced that I'm granted this

[JennyMominFL]

6 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I think we are all dreading/ preparing for the scene where Jon looks at Dany and says don't do this and she stares back... Then flies off to do something.. That probably won't end well for a bunch of ppl.... 

I'm also hoping for a scene where qyburn is alone with cersei and after some light talking... He stabs her.. And its Arya.. Or maybe in the cruelest world.. Alone somewhere Cersei sees one of her kids... Let's go with Tommen and he blames her for... Well... Everything.. And then he stabs her... And its Arya... Remember she fed walder Frey his sons with no compunction...and  her last words to cersei as she said after finishing off house Frey... The North Remembers.... That personally would be the most fitting.. I don't care that it may be fan servicey.. I don't care if she already killed the NK... That was a necessary detour... This.. Would be the culmination of her work and I pray to the 7... The LOL.. The drowned God and The many faced that I'm granted this

I could go for “ The Starks send their regards”

[Wendy]

38 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I have to admit I was taken aback by Daenerys's tone and expression with Jon as well.  I don't think that Jon is afraid of her as much as I think he has been hit with a lot (in a relatively short period of time) and he's trying to reconcile a lot of conflicting information not to mention feelings.  I expect there is a blow out coming between D&J (maybe wishful thinking on my part since nothing I've expected to see has come to pass so far). But she was unable to get Jon to bend the knee until he felt she was worthy of it.  She may see that steely, stubborn side to him again if she proves herself unworthy.

This is not the first time that Daenerys has used that tone of voice with Jon, she first did it during E1 when she mentioned that Sansa didn't have to like her but she needed to respect her or she would have to take care of it. That was a threat, Jon stood there and didn't say a word. She walked away and then they went dragon riding. This is the second time that she used that threatening voice and message to let him know that he has to do what she wants or else. I am scratching my head about this. 

This is what Sansa was talking about when she said that men in love are easily manipulated. it has to be. I can't imagine anybody else talking to Jon about his family the same way and him not having a visceral reaction. Then during the meeting the next day, the way Daenerys spoke to Sansa, her voice, her demeanor, her facial gestures, the teeth grinding. Jon has to be blind not to notice. Maybe he is not bling just a fool in love, but I do know that Arya didn't miss a bit of that ergo the family meeting. 

I LOL when I read comments that Sansa better be good girl or Daenerys will take care of her, as meaning she will Tarly her. I don't worry one bit about Jon's reaction because he probably will find a way to justify it because she is just so wonderful and selfless 😕 , but I do know that Arya will set it to rights. Daenerys is so used to yes people, she is so used to throwing a fit and people just scrambling around and doing her will. She never thought there was a person she couldn't win/manipulate her way around.

One thing is to be thankful for the humanitarian help they have received and another very different is to have to grovel and lick her feet to make her happy. I am glad the Stark siblings (minus Jon) are not groveling and are worried about their pack first and foremost. 

[Andromeda]

23 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I'm also hoping for a scene where qyburn is alone with cersei and after some light talking... He stabs her.. And its Arya.. Or maybe in the cruelest world.. Alone somewhere Cersei sees one of her kids... Let's go with Tommen and he blames her for... Well... Everything.. And then he stabs her... And its Arya... Remember she fed walder Frey his sons with no compunction...and  her last words to cersei as she said after finishing off house Frey... The North Remembers.... That personally would be the most fitting.. I don't care that it may be fan servicey.. I don't care if she already killed the NK... That was a necessary detour... This.. Would be the culmination of her work and I pray to the 7... The LOL.. The drowned God and The many faced that I'm granted this

I know it's unlikely, since Arya didn't have access to her children's faces, but it would be awesome if Cersei thought she saw Tommen...and followed him. And then her daughter Mercella, and followed her... Heck, throw Joffrey in there, too. And then stabby stab stab stab.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Andromeda
Joffrey. Yes, Cersei loved him, too.

[UNOSEZ]

6 minutes ago, Wendy said:

This is not the first time that Daenerys has used that tone of voice with Jon, she first did it during E1 when she mentioned that Sansa didn't have to like her but she needed to respect her or she would have to take care of it. That was a threat, Jon stood there and didn't say a word. She walked away and then they went dragon riding. This is the second time that she used that threatening voice and message to let him know that he has to do what she wants or else. I am scratching my head about this. 

This is what Sansa was talking about when she said that men in love are easily manipulated. it has to be. I can't imagine anybody else talking to Jon about his family the same way and him not having a visceral reaction. Then during the meeting the next day, the way Daenerys spoke to Sansa, her voice, her demeanor, her facial gestures, the teeth grinding. Jon has to be blind not to notice. Maybe he is not bling just a fool in love, but I do know that Arya didn't miss a bit of that ergo the family meeting. 

I LOL when I read comments that Sansa better be good girl or Daenerys will take care of her, as meaning she will Tarly her. I don't worry one bit about Jon's reaction because he probably will find a way to justify it because she is just so wonderful and selfless 😕 , but I do know that Arya will set it to rights. Daenerys is so used to yes people, she is so used to throwing a fit and people just scrambling around and doing her will. She never thought there was a person she couldn't win/manipulate her way around.

One thing is to be thankful for the humanitarian help they have received and another very different is to have to grovel and lick her feet to make her happy. I am glad the Stark siblings (minus Jon) are not groveling and are worried about their pack first and foremost. 

when Arya hit Jon with the " we need to talk" I was dying cuz I knew what it was.. I expected them to say in essence what you just posted.. Or some variation.. Instead of the blanket " I/ we don't trust her" which us vague and open to interpretation depending on fave characters 

[UNOSEZ]

Just now, Andromeda said:

I know it's unlikely, since Arya didn't have access to her children's faces, but it would be awesome if she thought she saw Tommen...and followed him. And then her daughter Mercella, and followed her... and then stabby stab stab stab.

I mean they have to be somewhere in the capital.. And its a safe bet she's already there.. Somewhere.. The only problem is.. If the writers wanna surprise us.. They can't do it.. Because the second I see one of those poor inbred golden lions ( not bastard Joffery)  we'd know it was Arya 

[Absurda]

Quote

Two things.  First, you realize Ghost is a CGI creation, right?  I don't think Kit Harington has anything to do with the oddness of the scene.  And second, CGI Ghost is a direwolf, not a dog.

Yes, I know Ghost is CGI and a direwolf.  I thought I'd heard somewhere (I could be wrong or mis-remembering) that a dog stand in was used and the CGI of the direwolf based on that.  So, actors would be interacting with something real not just fake air.  But, again, I could be mis-remembering that or have misunderstood the process.  All that said, it was still a sucky goodbye considering that, in show, we're expected to believe this was a real, social, territorial animal that bonded with his person and has fought several times to defend him.  If people can be upset about dragons being killed, I can be upset about this.

[MrsR]

The adult dire wolves are played by real wolves and they are shot in Calgary. There are no wolves in Ireland and the actors unions have safety rules as well as insurance issues. There will never be any dire wolf hugging.

Edited May 8, 2019 by MrsR

[TaurusRose]

54 minutes ago, Wendy said:

This is not the first time that Daenerys has used that tone of voice with Jon, she first did it during E1 when she mentioned that Sansa didn't have to like her but she needed to respect her or she would have to take care of it. That was a threat, Jon stood there and didn't say a word. She walked away and then they went dragon riding. This is the second time that she used that threatening voice and message to let him know that he has to do what she wants or else. I am scratching my head about this. 

This is what Sansa was talking about when she said that men in love are easily manipulated. it has to be. I can't imagine anybody else talking to Jon about his family the same way and him not having a visceral reaction. Then during the meeting the next day, the way Daenerys spoke to Sansa, her voice, her demeanor, her facial gestures, the teeth grinding. Jon has to be blind not to notice. Maybe he is not bling just a fool in love, but I do know that Arya didn't miss a bit of that ergo the family meeting. 

I LOL when I read comments that Sansa better be good girl or Daenerys will take care of her, as meaning she will Tarly her. I don't worry one bit about Jon's reaction because he probably will find a way to justify it because she is just so wonderful and selfless 😕 , but I do know that Arya will set it to rights. Daenerys is so used to yes people, she is so used to throwing a fit and people just scrambling around and doing her will. She never thought there was a person she couldn't win/manipulate her way around.

One thing is to be thankful for the humanitarian help they have received and another very different is to have to grovel and lick her feet to make her happy. I am glad the Stark siblings (minus Jon) are not groveling and are worried about their pack first and foremost. 

I didn't take Dany's comment about Sansa the way you did.  I didn't take it as a threat, just a comment that wasn't finished.  And I laugh whenever someone quotes Sansa about men being easily manipulated.  How the hell would she know?  Who has loved her?  Not Tyrion and not Ramsay.  LF fed her that garbage that she could twist Ramsay around her finger and she saw how that worked out for her.  If she believes LF loved her, she is a fool.  LF played with her for his own means and when he thought it would save his life.  How could she forget his first lesson about everyone being a liar.  How many relationships has she observed where the man was manipulated by the woman he loved?  I'm thinking none.  As usual, when Sansa speaks, I pretty much roll my eyes and say unkind things.  She needs to worry about her sorry self and examine how she's living her life before worrying about Jon's and Daenerys's relationship.  Sansa doesn't care about Jon.  She cares about Sansa.  As for Jon, he may love Daenerys (or thinks he is in love with her), but I haven't seen any signs of him being manipulated by her. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by taurusrose

[TaurusRose]

13 minutes ago, Absurda said:

Yes, I know Ghost is CGI and a direwolf.  I thought I'd heard somewhere (I could be wrong or mis-remembering) that a dog stand in was used and the CGI of the direwolf based on that.  So, actors would be interacting with something real not just fake air.  But, again, I could be mis-remembering that or have misunderstood the process.  All that said, it was still a sucky goodbye considering that, in show, we're expected to believe this was a real, social, territorial animal that bonded with his person and has fought several times to defend him.  If people can be upset about dragons being killed, I can be upset about this.

Yep, you sure can and I don't disagree.

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

And I laugh whenever someone quotes Sansa about men being easily manipulated.  How the hell would she know?  Who has loved her?  Not Tyrion and not Ramsay.

Baelish.

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, JennyMominFL said:

I agree.. But honestly, the Iron Throne is a Tyrant's position. An absolute Monarch is a tyrant. This is why I want the Iron Thone gone

Understandable, but it won’t happen.  

Q: What you call a democracy surrounded by feudal monarchies?  

A: “Our newest territory”.

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Nope.  He has the right to the throne because he is the only surviving child of the firstborn child of the king.  If he were a woman he'd still have a right to the throne over Dany, even if Dany was a man.

If Jon were a woman and Dany a man, Dany would have the senior claim.  That's the whole point of the discussion between Sansa and Septa Mordane in the throne room when Sansa asks what happens if she and Joffrey have only girls. Septa Mordane says the throne would pass to Joffrey's brother (Tommen).

Joffrey = Rhaegar

Joffrey & Sansa's daughters = Female Jon

Tommen = Male Dany

[Lady S.]

31 minutes ago, MrsR said:

The adult dire wolves are played by real wolves and they are shot in Calgary. There are no wolves in Ireland and the actors unions have safety rules as well as insurance issues. There will never be any dire wolf hugging.

We have seen them touching the wolves before, though. It just takes green screen magic like the giant fighting or dragonriding.

This was entirely a choice, which director David Nutter defended as "very, very powerful."

[Nashville]

11 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

She didn't know for sure that the Knights of the Vale were on the way.  She hoped they were, and probably should've told Jon about them, but she had enough doubts about Littlefinger to not be sure.

I'm not a particular fan of Sansa, and I wish she had kept her mouth shut about Jon being Aegon Targaryen, but I don't think she would've said anything if Tyrion hadn't admitted to being at least of little afraid of Dany.

Just to clarify - the section you quoted came from @Lemuria, not me.  Since its last overhaul, the system’s occasional misattribution of quotes has become a pet peeve of mine.

[Lady S.]

Updated.

Congrats and condolences to the Jaime/Brienne shippers? I really don't know what else to say about this ep, despite being spoiled for it.

[Drumpf1737]

It was Tyrion's idea to capture a wight and bring it back to Cersei, resulting in Dany losing a dragon. Cersei doesn't send the troops she promised! Tyrion says she's not a monster then marches them into an ambush and Dany loses another dragon. 

Instead of worrying about Sansa bending the knee the Dragon Queen needs to get a new hand.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Drumpf1737

[Kate47]

5 hours ago, taurusrose said:

And I laugh whenever someone quotes Sansa about men being easily manipulated.  How the hell would she know?  Who has loved her?  Not Tyrion and not Ramsay.  

Joffery being manipulated by Margery comes to mind. Robb losing everything for the love of a woman. To a lesser extent, Cersei's ability to manipulate Robert, who should have known better. 

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

Understandable, but it won’t happen.  

Q: What you call a democracy surrounded by feudal monarchies?  

A: “Our newest territory”.

The Republic of Venice outlasted a ton of monarchies surrounding it for more than a thousand years.

That said, I’m expecting King Jon/Aegon is endgame in this particular story. I think he’ll go back North and rule from Winterfell though so he can have Bran and Sam and Sansa on his small council more easily.

The story began with a King coming to Winterfell and pulling all the Starks apart as a result; proper story symmetry suggests the ending will be The King coming to Winterfell to reunite all the Starks.

[KatWay]

1 hour ago, Kate47 said:

Joffery being manipulated by Margery comes to mind. Robb losing everything for the love of a woman. To a lesser extent, Cersei's ability to manipulate Robert, who should have known better. 

but were any of them actually in love? Margaery manipulated Joffrey by appealing to his ego mostly, Talisa loved Robb and I don't recall her manipulating him into anything, those were his (dumb) decisions. Robert seemed to even dislike Cersei he just couldn't be bothered to actually fight her on anything, cause it was more convenient to let her do whatever she wanted.

[magpye29]

Bran is about as useful here as Deanna Troi in any episode if ST:NG.  “I sense no deception, Captain.” 

Bran:  “I’m leaving now.”

Crickets...

[Kate47]

26 minutes ago, KatWay said:

but were any of them actually in love? Margaery manipulated Joffrey by appealing to his ego mostly, Talisa loved Robb and I don't recall her manipulating him into anything, those were his (dumb) decisions. Robert seemed to even dislike Cersei he just couldn't be bothered to actually fight her on anything, cause it was more convenient to let her do whatever she wanted.

I think for Sansa love and manipulation are the same thing, or so intertwined as to make no difference. Love makes you weak and vulnerable and easy to sell off or boss around.

The only example she had for romantic love was probably her parents, and that was years ago when she was still a little bird. It's not fair, but I def think she sees the world through a cold and distorted lens now.

Edited to add: in Robb's case his love for Talisa allowed his enemies to outmanuever him. It made him logisitcally weak, which I can see Sansa counting. With Joffrey and Margery, she was able to see how someone with a huge ego could be led around and cosseted with the right words and phrases. With Cersei, I think Sansa developed the idea that Robert was too weak to be able to rein her in or put her in her place. All of these were "love," and they all involved some form of weakness or manipulation. Her tutelage under Baelish's slimy ass certainly didn't help any.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Kate47
Clarifying statements

[Stardancer Supreme]

7 hours ago, MrsR said:

The adult dire wolves are played by real wolves and they are shot in Calgary. There are no wolves in Ireland and the actors unions have safety rules as well as insurance issues. There will never be any dire wolf hugging.

Plus we have never seen Jon interact with Ghost as you would a domesticated pet. Jon respects Ghost for the wild wolf that he is.  Now the show should have had Jon smile and nod at Ghost as a goodbye. Then Ghost turns and walks towards Tormund. That would have worked better.

[SueB]

It's taken me three days to get to the episode and through the comments.  My apologies if I repeat something -- it gets blurry after a bit.

"The Last of the Starks" sure seems like a more important title than many episode titles.  I'm also mad we didn't get the reaction shot to Jon's news but that scene of the remaining four by the tree really stuck with me.  It was the TREE.  It was the four of them as 'family' for potentially the last time.  Bran is checked out, Arya is off to finish her kill list and implied she's not coming back, John gave away the last Direwold, John is also a Targaryen and may not return, and Sansa is left hold the North together either unwed (and childless) or married with a new name.  

On the other hand.... Ned Stark really runs thru all their veins (literally or not).  Jon will continue to live his life emuating the man.  Arya will avenge him.  Sansa still sees good and evil thru Ned's eyes.  And honestly, despite the ups and downs of various characters in the series, for me they are the family I root for.  

So, I was bummed to see them separate but I still have hope that they have changed so many others, their legacy will not go away.  

Other thoughts:

Brienne and Jamie - I was happy they had a few days of love and cuddles.  I don't care what anyone else thinks, I'm positive Jamie cuddles.  Their goodbye scene was heartwrenching but I haven't given up on Jamie yet. I think Jamie cannot simply let Cersei die horribly.  He may kill her before letting her suffer.  And he may kill her before letting her continue to rule.  It's about as f*cked up a relationship as it can get, but I think he feels he has to be there for her in the end.  Even if it's to end her life.  I also don't think he's going to survive. But my deepest wish is that he left a little bun in the oven for Brienne.  She has never longed for motherhood but I think a love child of Brienne and Jamie, raised at Winterfell with perhaps Sansa's help, would be an awesome person.  If a boy, a helluva warrior. If a girl.... a helluva warrior.  Probably wishful thinking but Jamie clearly had no problem getting Cersei pregnant all the time.

I hope we get to see Tormund and Samwell again.  I'm worried we won't.

I think Sansa decided to put the fate of the Seven Kingdoms in Tyrion's hands.  I don't think she told Tyrion to undermine Danys.  I think she's genuinely concerned about the right outcome and thinks Tyrion can judge the situation best with all the information.  I think she's ONLY worried about the North and has no ambitions beyond doing right by her people.  I was shocked that Varys seemed the most altruistic of all - even though he can be a slimy SOB.  

I was devastated by the loss of Rhaegal and Missandei. With the loss of Jorah's calming council, the real test for her will be if she can mature into a queen who is the servant of the people.  It was always her goal but she's been playing the Game of Thrones for too long -- her entitlement is showing.  

I want Euron Greyjoy killed in a manner befiting his evil nature.  Cersei needs to die by Jamie's hand IMO.  

[PatsyandEddie]

Re Ghost:

I saw Jon looking at Ghost with quite a bit of pain showing on his face. It was very brief then he mounted his horse. To me, it was as if Jon couldn’t bear to say good-bye physically. Giving him to Tormund so that he could live free in the North was a gift to Ghost as much as Tormund. I prefer to think that Jon will return and see both of dear friends again. 

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, KatWay said:

Margaery manipulated Joffrey by appealing to his ego mostly

And she manipulated Tommen by petting his pussy. 

 

#NeverForgetSerPounce

[Constantinople]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think Sansa decided to put the fate of the Seven Kingdoms in Tyrion's hands.  I don't think she told Tyrion to undermine Danys.  I think she's genuinely concerned about the right outcome and thinks Tyrion can judge the situation best with all the information.  I think she's ONLY worried about the North and has no ambitions beyond doing right by her people.  I was shocked that Varys seemed the most altruistic of all - even though he can be a slimy SOB. 

Sansa is a shit stirrer

In this season's premiere, she all but called Tyrion a moron for trusting his sister, and that was before Cersei's betrayal was revealed. Now she think's Tyrion's judgment is state of the art?

[RealReality]

10 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Two things.  First, you realize Ghost is a CGI creation, right?  I don't think Kit Harington has anything to do with the oddness of the scene.  And second, CGI Ghost is a direwolf, not a dog.   I love Ghost and have missed him a lot, but it looks like he fought the good fight and SURVIVED!  He deserves a well earned break from the idiocy south of (what's left of) the wall.

I assume their goodbye means that Jon dies.

9 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I think we are all dreading/ preparing for the scene where Jon looks at Dany and says don't do this and she stares back... Then flies off to do something.. That probably won't end well for a bunch of ppl.... 

I'm also hoping for a scene where qyburn is alone with cersei and after some light talking... He stabs her.. And its Arya.. Or maybe in the cruelest world.. Alone somewhere Cersei sees one of her kids... Let's go with Tommen and he blames her for... Well... Everything.. And then he stabs her... And its Arya... Remember she fed walder Frey his sons with no compunction...and  her last words to cersei as she said after finishing off house Frey... The North Remembers.... That personally would be the most fitting.. I don't care that it may be fan servicey.. I don't care if she already killed the NK... That was a necessary detour... This.. Would be the culmination of her work and I pray to the 7... The LOL.. The drowned God and The many faced that I'm granted this

9 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I know it's unlikely, since Arya didn't have access to her children's faces, but it would be awesome if Cersei thought she saw Tommen...and followed him. And then her daughter Mercella, and followed her... Heck, throw Joffrey in there, too. And then stabby stab stab stab.

Cersei's death has to be spectacular, because I've been waiting to savor her death for years.  I like the idea of arya doing it with the faces, but it's likely that nothing will be good enough to sate my bloodthirst

Edited May 8, 2019 by RealReality

[Drogo]

Just now, Constantinople said:

In this season's premiere, she all but called Tyrion a moron for trusting his sister, and that was before Cersei's betrayal was revealed. Now she think's Tyrion's judgment is state of the art?

That was before he kissed her hand gently. 

But men are so easily manipulated by women.

[terrymct]

19 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think Robert admitted he was lying.  IIRC, he berated him for letting a little girl disarm him.  

We will never know for sure what would have happened if Sansa told the truth.  But it clearly demonstrated her lack of courage, moral character and commitment to her family.  I haven't seen a lot of change in that over the next 7 seasons.

Sansa was raised to be a lady of the castle and as such she's supposed to support her man.  She was a scared kid who tried to walk the line between supporting Joffrey while not technically lying.  

[Chaser]

Sansa is playing the Game of Thrones, everyone else forgot what show they were on. 

[RealReality]

Just now, Chaser said:

Sansa is playing the Game of Thrones, everyone else forgot what show they were on. 

Ha!  

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Sansa was raised to be a lady of the castle and as such she's supposed to support her man.  She was a scared kid who tried to walk the line between supporting Joffrey while not technically lying.  

Such an honorable and courageous girl!  It just showed how she NEVER gave a crap about her family or the North.  

Her septa commented about how she has started wearing her like a Southerner, and she basically pissed on the North and was obnoxious to her septa.   

I almost wonder if Catelyn had a revenge affair with some Southerner, because Sansa has none of the North in her and is completely unlike all her siblings and the other proud, fierce ladies of the North.   

[Bali]

13 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I never thought the reveal of her pregnancy to Tyrion had anything to do with wine. I saw her placing her hand over her tummy in a protective fashion, which signaled her pregnancy. I highly doubt they know of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome in Westeros, so I wouldn't use her wine drinking as a gauge. (Besides, with her habitual incest, would she really be concerned about a few glasses of wine affecting the health of her offspring?)

I just took her refusal to drink the wine Tyrion handed her as distrust of Tyrion. She likes to poison people. It's her favoritest thing to do. So, she assumes someone will poison her. I get where she's coming from. She is vile and horrid and awful. And someone should kill her. Dead dead, not coming back dead. But they really need to smack the everloving *%&%^ smug skirk off her face first! I mean honestly, I just want one person to smack her for me. Then yeah, kill her or whatever. But please smack her first!

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I mean they have to be somewhere in the capital.. And its a safe bet she's already there.. Somewhere.. The only problem is.. If the writers wanna surprise us.. They can't do it.. Because the second I see one of those poor inbred golden lions ( not bastard Joffery)  we'd know it was Arya 

I think Joffrey and the girl were buried in the Sept - so their faces went up with the wildfire. Tommon, on the other hand, who knows?

6 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

It was Tyrion's idea to capture a wight and bring it back to Cersei, resulting in Dany losing a dragon. Cersei doesn't send the troops she promised! Tyrion says she's not a monster then marches them into an ambush and Dany loses another dragon. 

Instead of worrying about Sansa bending the knee the Dragon Queen needs to get a new hand.

Just because it ended badly doesn't mean the advice was bad. The wight should have worked - you just can't really count on the reactions of those in power who are at their core unreasonable and unpredictable.

1 hour ago, Kate47 said:

I think for Sansa love and manipulation are the same thing, or so intertwined as to make no difference. Love makes you weak and vulnerable and easy to sell off or boss around.

The only example she had for romantic love was probably her parents, and that was years ago when she was still a little bird. It's not fair, but I def think she sees the world through a cold and distorted lens now.

Edited to add: in Robb's case his love for Talisa allowed his enemies to outmanuever him. It made him logisitcally weak, which I can see Sansa counting. With Joffrey and Margery, she was able to see how someone with a huge ego could be led around and cosseted with the right words and phrases. With Cersei, I think Sansa developed the idea that Robert was too weak to be able to rein her in or put her in her place. All of these were "love," and they all involved some form of weakness or manipulation. Her tutelage under Baelish's slimy ass certainly didn't help any.

Not to mention - she observed the master manipulator herself - Cersei.

[UNOSEZ]

37 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I assume their goodbye means that Jon dies.

Cersei's death has to be spectacular, because I've been waiting to savor her death for years.  I like the idea of arya doing it with the faces, but it's likely that nothing will be good enough to sate my bloodthirst

Maybe somehow bran can warg into her mind and leave her in the room where Tommen jumped out of the window... Over and over and over

[RealReality]

8 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Maybe somehow bran can warg into her mind and leave her in the room where Tommen jumped out of the window... Over and over and over

I like it!

In fact I love to read creative and terrible ways for cersei to die.  It would be fantastic if someone actually predicts it.

So far, I haven't had too many complaints about the show.  A few lines have been clunky, and I was sad to lose rhaeagal, and really sad to lose lyanna stark but other then that Ive been cool.

But if these fools do not kill cersei off in a satisfying way, imma go all direwolf on someone!

[terrymct]

34 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Such an honorable and courageous girl!  It just showed how she NEVER gave a crap about her family or the North.  

Her septa commented about how she has started wearing her like a Southerner, and she basically pissed on the North and was obnoxious to her septa.   

I almost wonder if Catelyn had a revenge affair with some Southerner, because Sansa has none of the North in her and is completely unlike all her siblings and the other proud, fierce ladies of the North.   

She was a kid who wanted to be queen and embraced the south for a time.  Yeah, I didn't like her much back then, but she's grown into an interesting character.  She learned from Littlefinger, but has more empathy than he ever did.

[Leroux]

17 hours ago, RealReality said:

I don't know that Dany is "mad" or "crazy," as I think anyone who wants to sit on the iron throne has to be a little paranoid.

But, I think that we are seeing that "freeing people of their chains" is generally incompatible with being their queen.  

Dany has an army that willingly fights for her, she has people that would willingly die for her.  But how can you be breaker of chains if you torch people alive who do not choose your rule?  How do you be a queen to those who don't consent to your rule if they are truly free?  She isn't going to win the iron throne by a electoral college vote, she has to MAKE people accept her as queen, and she has shown a willingness to do that by any means necessary.

This is fine, but I think it's a struggle we're seeing.  If your message is that everyone is free from their bondage, then are her recent actions in line with that message?  I guess you could choose death, but that is the same choice under a cersei administration.

Cersei wins because she will make Dany stoop to her level to win, or she will have to lose trying not to kill innocents.

Cersei wins one way or the other. I think Cersei realizes that is over, there is no way she can hold onto power so she is going with a bang. She is using people as human shields, she still has catches of wildfire all around the city and she is consciously baiting Daenerys to attack and burn the city to the ground. Like Tyrion told her, she hates the people of KL so she doesn't care if they live or die. 

The issue at hand is why is Daeneys taking the bait? Strategically she has taken all the wrong decisions, she could have scouted, she could have stopped at the Vale and organize from there, she could have retaken Riverrun back from the Lanisters who are now huddle up in KLs, she could have communicated with the new prince of Dorne and ask for more people, communicate with Daario and ask him to send more of her armies in Essos. She could have gone to battle much better prepared and still have Rhaegal and Missandei by her side. They have a plan that doesn't include the use of dragons, Tyrion has warned her since last season that there is wildfire all over the city and that is why they haven't attack KL as soon as they arrived. Her best weapon at this point would have been to surround Cersei on all fronts, have all the other kingdoms on her side and surround KL, block all services and food deliveries, every day she doesn't attack cost Cersei money for the soldiers of the GC. Then wait for the people inside the city to start a riot because they are starved. This is the strategy that basically was going to win her the throne, it would be slower but it would avoid mass murdering of civilians. Once it is over she sweeps the city and sets food delivery immediately for the people, maesters for the injured, orphanages, etc. 

She did exactly the opposite, made rush decisions that have cost her another one of her dragons and her best friend and now she is enraged and ready to retaliate which is exactly what Cersei wants. Cersei wants her to set her dragons on the city, she wants the city to burn to ashes so once Daenerys finally wins the war her reign will be tainted forever. She would be the queen who burned the city to the ground with 1M-1/2M people inside it, how do you recover from that? how would she feel about that?

Daenerys has backed herself into a corner and it all could have been prevented. 

[TaurusRose]

4 hours ago, Kate47 said:

Joffery being manipulated by Margery comes to mind. Robb losing everything for the love of a woman. To a lesser extent, Cersei's ability to manipulate Robert, who should have known better. 

Sansa didn't personally witness Robb and whatshername.  Neither was Robb manipulated by her. Falling in love with someone, loving someone, doesn't mean you are being manipulated by them.  And Margery's influence on Joffrey was so minimal it's laughable.

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, RealReality said:

I assume their goodbye means that Jon dies.

Yeah I'm afraid you're right, damn show. They finally pulled me back into Jon's character and now he's going to die because of Dany or Sansa based on an all-founded allegiance to them they probably dont have for him. Just make it quick is all I ask.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, terrymct said:

She was a kid who wanted to be queen and embraced the south for a time.  Yeah, I didn't like her much back then, but she's grown into an interesting character.  She learned from Littlefinger, but has more empathy than he ever did.

What empathy?  Who has she ever cared about or shown loyalty too?  What has she ever done for anyone else, that wasn't for her own benefit?   

She let thousands of Northerners she claims to care about and nearly her brother die at the BOTB, because she didn't want to tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale.   

I think she has gotten worse, not better.  At least back in KL she told Joffrey he couldn't kill Ser Dontos on his nameday and picked up Joffrey's cup for Tyrion while Joffrey was humiliating him.   Since then, I can't recall her doing a single thing that wasn't for her own benefit.  

I can understand her not trusting Dany but the way she has treated Jon, since they reunited has been horrible and totally without cause.    

[Leroux]

17 hours ago, Absurda said:

My point was she should have consulted with them BEFORE the meeting to have definite information rather than just a general statement and an "I'll get back to you later on that".

Wouldn't that be Jon's job though? Sansa is the Lady of WF, why would she have that information, it would be more a question of common sense. You do not send recovering troops to another battle right away. Sansa had to remind her that these troops were her troops as well, as a Queen she should be looking for their welfare too. 

How about Grey Worm, how about Davos, how about the Dotraki guy at the meeting, Jon doesn't count because he has become a simpering fool around her, wouldn't they have the common sense to know that answer? They probably knew their troops needed rest but they are all Daenerys yes men so nobody was asking the evident question and Sansa did it. 

Daenerys has surrounded herself with such advisors, none of them good, they are either scared of her, in love with her or not used to question her at all. Jorah's common sense might have helped but then again Daenerys only does what she wants regardless of any advise given so the monumental mistakes that have cost her a dragon, some ships and her best friend fall squarely on her shoulders. 

Sansa didn't lose her a dragon, didn't lose her Missandei, didn't lose her ships. Daenerys managed to do that all on her own. 

[TaurusRose]

4 hours ago, Kate47 said:

Joffery being manipulated by Margery comes to mind. Robb losing everything for the love of a woman. To a lesser extent, Cersei's ability to manipulate Robert, who should have known better. 

Seeing as my original post has disappeared...Baelish did not love Sansa.  At best he had a creepy, twisted fascination with the daughter of the woman he "loved." Baelish played with Sansa.  He was a schemer and liar. He threw anyone and everyone under the bus for his ultimate goal which he lost by overplaying at WF with Bran specifically.  I  give Sansa zero credit for having an "a ha!" moment because she was falling completely under his sway.  

As for the above comment, I think you are probably speaking in general terms because Sansa certainly didn't witness any manipulations between C&R or Robb and whatshername.  Furthermore, losing everything for love and being manipulated by someone for love are two different things.  I can't remember if Sansa specifically used the word manipulate, but that seems to be where her head was going.  

Edited May 8, 2019 by taurusrose