S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[GodsBeloved]

6 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

One bright light this week was Arya and Clegane riding traveling together again.

That and everything with Jamie and Brienne just up til the end.

Oh and Podrick with his silly grin at the prospect of some Northern poontang. 

I want to like this post but I still hate Jaime with the heat of a thousand suns so I can"t 🤣

[Sakura12]

5 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Now this I completely agree with.

And let's be real. Dany has people in her corner who toot her horn as much as Tormund was tooting Jon's.

Not anymore she doesn't they are all dead. They are really making her fall from grace to be her lowest so it won't be a big deal when she dies all alone, probably in the next episode. 

[Drogo]

10 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

And let's be real. Dany has people in her corner who toot her horn as much as Tormund was tooting Jon's.

Not so much anymore. 

[Bryce Lynch]

7 hours ago, lvbalgurl said:

I agree.  I'm very much in Sansa's corner but I would have loved if they could have finished the really fantastic conversation they had in Ep 2.  When you're a victim of rape and brutality, that informs your decisions.  Sansa isn't just fighting for Northern independence and safety, she's fighting for her own.  Jon being on the IT means that nothing like what she went through with Joffrey and Ramsey will ever happen again.  And that's because Jon will put her in a position of power in the North and WF, and, with that power, she's going to make sure she's never a victim again.

If they could truly discuss what both of them have been through, I think (hope) they could come to a common ground.

Sansa doesn't give a damn about Northern independence or safety.  If she did, she wouldn't be undermining and provoke the Queen who is friendly to the North and who is in love with a Northern Lord.  

She doesn't care about her family either and never has.  She hated Arya and Jon growing up and sold out Arya for Joffrey after barely knowing him.   

She undermined Jon from the beginning as well.  When everyone else was shouting, "The King in the North", she was giving a pouting look toward Littlefinger, who was the only other person in the room not standing and shouting "The King in the North!"   

Sansa made herself a victim to Joffrey and Rasmsay.  If she wasn't such a vain, obnoxious liar, she would have defended her sister Arya and told the truth about what happened on the Kingsroad.  That would have ended her betrothal to Joffrey and she would have gone safely home to WF.  

But, she wanted to be queen and have lots of little golden haired princes for that sociopath.

Later, she could have fled KL with The Hound, but chose not to.

After LF killed Lysa Arryn, she could have, in complete safety, told the truth about LF to the Lords and Ladies of the Vale, but she lied for him and he rewarded her by selling her to another sociopath.   

Dany has never betrayed her or the North.  The people who have been kindest to Sansa, Tyrion and Jon both trust Dany, yet she chooses not to.   She is in rebellion both to her Warden of the North and her Queen.  

Also, why she Sansa trust the Northerners more than Dany and Jon?  The Boltons and the other houses that betrayed House Stark were Northerners as well.  

Sansa was always selfish, vain and power hungry.   All she learned from Cersei, LF and Ramsay was how better to feed her vanity and lust for power.   

Edited May 6, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Soup333]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

Not anymore she doesn't they are all dead. They are really making her fall from grace to be her lowest so it won't be a big deal when she dies all alone, probably in the next episode. 

Probably. And I don’t think Jon loves her all like that. He’s honorable, he knows they would have lost without her help and he swore to help her in her fight like she helped the north. He told Sam he wished he wasn’t going south. If Dany had said she wished she didn’t have to fight the NK she’d be dragged through the comments. 

[AnnaL]

10 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

For all of their faults Tyrion and Jaime actually have a strong sibling relationship and you believe they won't sell each other out.  The Starks should take notes. 

I hear that there's this novel military tactic called scouting ahead.  Dragonstone is the most obvious place for Dany to go and it's very close to KL - why wouldn't you suspect a trap, especially when you apparently left no one behind to watch it when you went North?

Agreed! 

Things that Dany could have done if she have waited 3-4 weeks: 

- Let her soldiers rest, recover and get their strength back to top shape. 

- Send letter or emissaries to all the rest of the kingdoms explaining what just happened and how defeating the Night King has saved their lives as well. Then ask for men willing to join your cause. Ask them to meet you in KL so they can recover the throne together. Include them and make them feel part of your journey to the throne. 

- Send a representative to have talks with the Golden Company in Braavos, convince them that they are betting on the wrong horse and that you have the winning hand with your recovering two dragons. Offer to pay them more money than Cersei so they can leave her and go back to Essos. 

- Scout your surroundings, plan for some intel on Cersei's forces. Plan accordingly. Prepare yourself. Do small counter attacks to win momentum. Try to decimate some of her forces before the big battle. 

-Send little birds to KL and infiltrate the city, let the small folk know what happened in WF, let them know that you helped save the realm. Let them know that someone is coming to overthrow Cersei. PR, PR, PR , PR. PR 101  

_Marry Jon and declare him your co-ruler and heir. Let the North know Jon will rule them. Let everybody know about his heritage and built a memorial for Ned Stark who has saved the life of your only Targaryen relative. This would definitely win the North to your side. 

This war against Cersei is not a military war, it is a tactician war, one that Daenerys is ill prepared to win. As the commander of her troops she bares all responsibility for her loses. Dany doesn't get to act like this is all someone else fault. These are all executive decisions that she should have made that could have save the lives of the ones she loved: Missandei & Rhaegal. 

Now her own stupidity has backed her into a corner where she will go full Mad Queen and burn the city to the ground. Great way to start your reign. 

[cambridgeguy]

56 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

Should Sansa have told Tyrion?  Probably not, but Jon didn't have to tell his sisters and Tyrion didn't have to tell Varys and yet Sansa is getting all the blame.

That's because Sansa instantly reneged on her vow to keep silent and it was solely to undermine Dany's position.  Jon might be guilty of being stupid but he's not scheming behind his queen's back either. Likewise, Tyrion was under no obligation to keep his mouth shut.

[Constantinople]

The men in my family don't do well in the capital - Sansa

Then why did Sansa tell Tyrion about Jon's parentage despite being sworn to silence? If Jon is King of the Seven Kingdoms, he won't be living in Winterfell.

And what happened to Northern independence? Even if the North is willing to be ruled from the South by Jon, what happens after Jon?

And I'm not even blaming Sansa for not thinking this through given how many other screw ups the writers have made.

[UNOSEZ]

31 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

She is making mistakes, but she has not gone mad, killed people who didn't deserve it or threatened her authority and hasn't unleashed her fire-breathing babies on the hapless populace

She killed all those ppl in mereen who.. By their own laws had done nothing legally wrong.. Slavery was legal and she just killed leaders of houses whether they had slaves or not.. Then crucified them She shit on their customs and practices at every turn ( not that I really blame her)  she fed a maybe innocent man to her dragon.. She forced the son of a man she murdered to marry her while being openly hostile to him all the time.. I don't even remember why she burned down the Khalasar tent.. And I'm sorry I'm not giving anybody points for NOT letting her dragons rain down fire on innocent and guilty alike.. The fact that her first impulse is Dragon Rage is worrisome 

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

If Dany were really interested in a Targaryen restoration and "breaking the wheel", she would recognize that Jon ruling by public acclaim would achieve her goals. The issue is that she wants to rule. And rule alone. 

Dany is now the kind of leader why believes her own PR. All of the titles that she's taken on and had parroted every time she was introduced have fed into a sense of entitlement and she's unwilling and unable to bend when presented with new information. For all she talked about "breaking the wheel", she wasn't able to envision or articulate any solid plans beyond sitting on the Iron Throne. 

But Jon doesn't want to be King and wants her to be Queen.  

She earned most of those titles.  She stepped into a funeral pyre to become the mother of dragons and walked out of the fire Unburnt, then and when she killed all the Khals to become Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.  She broke the chains of hundreds of thousands of slaves, and overthrew the slave masters of Slaver's Bay to become Queen of Meereen.   

[Sakura12]

Sansa was the one that was asked to keep Jon's secret. She betrayed his trust by immediately telling someone. With the sole purpose of undermining both Jon and Dany.

Jon was just an honorable idiot for trusting her. 

[Bali]

22 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Enh. She flew straight intro a trap (wonder if Dany has ever heard of recon?). That was extremely costly. Then she lines up her tiny army and parleys. I can think of a dozen smarter moves, starting with not announcing your arrival.

And THAT is what angers me about this. Dany HAS MOST DEFINITELY heard of recon. We have seen it in cannon in the show. Way back in Season 2, Dany sends Rahkaro to do recon. Later, she sends Daario out- wait for it- to do recon. But now, when it is so very important- Nope- recon? What's that? I dunno. Rhaegal is injured? Oh, he doesn't need to rest and recoup. He can fly thousands of miles. No biggie. And let's fly him over the ocean, you know, so he can't rest at all. That will help.

Reminds me of when Sheldon says that when Hero's went off the air, they just kept lowering the quality until no one cared anymore. Dany is smarter than this. They all are. But shortened season- so, "Hey, I know, let's make em all dumb!" Then we'll just tell the audience that they are really smart. And we only want to shoot one battle, so lets shoot one in the dark. Audiences are stupid, it won't matter. Then we'll just say she's crazy because she's pissed off. We won't mention the fact that the Mad Queen is really Cersei, maybe people will be pulling for her by then. BLEH

Well, the audiences used to LOVE this show because it didn't treat us like we were stupid.

[hoosiermommy]

10 hours ago, Vella said:

There is NO way Jon does not want to be King.

He does. He cannot admit it to himself or anyone else, but Dany was 100% right when she said that it didn't matter, once it got out, it would go a certain way.

Yet he STILL tells Sansa and Arya, mere MOMENTS after both have sniffed their noses and said "she's not from here, you are".  Especially knowing the fractious relationship between Sansa and Dany and yet he still tells them. He knows Sansa will fight tooth and nail to keep the North free. He KNOWS this and still tells her. Sansa will do what she believes is best for herself and the North, and that's not letting an outsider rule. Period. She has always been clear about the end goal.

But he STILL told her.  Why? This HUGE revelation.  Once again, Dany knew better. After everything Sansa had lived through, there was NO WAY she'd keep quiet.

And Jon must know that the person who loses is Dany. Each time, it's her. Not him. They both know that.

So he wants to be King. He does. If he didn't, he'd keep his fucking trap shut. Simple as that.

And I want for SOMEONE to fucking call him out on that.

I saw this from a different aspect. He doesn’t want to be King, he wants to be recognized for who he is...not the bastard son of northern lord, nor the product of a rape, but a loved child from a happily married couple. This happens in the real world when people find out they’re adopted. No matter how loved they are, and how accepted into their family, many have a drive to find and honor their biological roots. 

[Sakura12]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But Jon doesn't want to be King and wants her to be Queen.  

She earned most of those titles.  She stepped into a funeral pyre to become the mother of dragons and walked out of the fire Unburnt, then and when she killed all the Khals to become Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.  She broke the chains of hundreds of thousands of slaves, and overthrew the slave masters of Slaver's Bay to become Queen of Meereen.   

That's why she should've just stayed and become the Queen of Essos and built a grand dragon castle over there. 

[Drogo]

3 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

That's because Sansa instantly reneged on her vow to keep silent and it was solely to undermine Dany's position. 

No one:

Absolutely no one:

Not a fucking soul in the world:

Sansa: 

[Bali]

10 minutes ago, AnnaL said:

-Send little birds to KL and infiltrate the city, let the small folk know what happened in WF, let them know that you helped save the realm. Let them know that someone is coming to overthrow Cersei. PR, PR, PR , PR. PR 101  

Like LITERAL LITTLE BIRDS- Bran can warg. But did you think of that? Of course not.

[Drogo]

3 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

The fact that her first impulse is Dragon Rage is worrisome 

Give any of the other characters on this show 3 dragons and certainly we'll see some with more Dragon Rage than Daenerys has ever shown. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, UNOSEZ said:

She killed all those ppl in mereen who.. By their own laws had done nothing legally wrong.. Slavery was legal and she just killed leaders of houses whether they had slaves or not.. Then crucified them She shit on their customs and practices at every turn ( not that I really blame her)  she fed a maybe innocent man to her dragon.. She forced the son of a man she murdered to marry her while being openly hostile to him all the time.. I don't even remember why she burned down the Khalasar tent.. And I'm sorry I'm not giving anybody points for NOT letting her dragons rain down fire on innocent and guilty alike.. The fact that her first impulse is Dragon Rage is worrisome 

So, now freeing slaves is a BAD thing?  SMH.

She crucified a number a Masters equal to the number of innocent slave children they crucified.  That is justice, an eye for an eye. 

She married Hizdahr zo Loraq instead of killing him and the other Masters to try to form a peaceful alliance with them.   

She burned down the Khals tent to stop them from gang raping and killing her and to liberate the Khalsar from those monsters.    

It is amazing how people can spin good things Dany did into bad.  Cersei Lannisters Master of Propaganda couldn't do any better.   

[tv-talk]

5 minutes ago, hoosiermommy said:

There is NO way Jon does not want to be King.

If Jon wanted to be King, all he had to do was have Sam announce at the feast who he really was and that would be that- he would be the King. There was really nothing Dany could have done about it up North and surrounded by Jon's people. If he had eyes on the IT, which he doesnt, he could have easily leapfrogged Dany right there. And the thing about Jon, the way he has lived his life and with the effect he has on people- if he was to proclaim "I'm actually a Targyeron/Stark and King of everything"...the reaction by every single person would be "Of course you are!! It makes perfect sense!"

Edited May 6, 2019 by tv-talk

[catrox14]

Granted I only watched it once so far but I am not convinced Sansa told Tyrion about Jon.

IIRC, the writing was kind of cagey there. I thought he said that a Stark and a Targeryen would be the rightful heir. He could have been talking about Jon and Day having a child. Not that Jon is the Stark and a Targeryen himself.  Did miss something more specific that proves she spilled the beans?

[WatchrTina]

10 hours ago, GraceK said:

I don’t get why Dany didn’t fight back when Rhaegal died. Wth? Since when is Drogon passive? Why didn’t she light shit up?

She was going to. In her rage she -- for a moment -- was making a run at the ships that could very well have turned out to be a suicide run.  But thankfully she veered off, realizing that Drogon was vulnerable.  And as for why she did not fly behind them and light shit up from *that* angle -- I think we have to assume the giant crossbows are on a turntable, so there is no getting behind them.

As I read through this morning's posts I find my thoughts straying the Brianne.  What an emotional rollercoaster she has been on!  From the low of dreading the oncoming fight to the high of being knighted by Jamie (and this *after* he's already asked for permission to fight at her side, under her command.) From the low of a seemingly lost battle to the high of a victory snatched from the jaws of defeat.  From the high of Jamie making love to her to the low of his leaving on what must surely look to be a suicide mission.  (I'm clinging to the belief that -- no matter what Jamie says -- Brieanne knows he's headed home to try to kill Cersie. She's not crying because she feels rejected.  She's crying because she's sure he's going to his death.)  Gods she's had a rough couple of days.

[Hana Chan]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

The men in my family don't do well in the capital - Sansa

Then why did Sansa tell Tyrion about Jon's parentage despite being sworn to silence? If Jon is King of the Seven Kingdoms, he won't be living in Winterfell.

And what happened to Northern independence? Even if the North is willing to be ruled from the South by Jon, what happens after Jon?

And I'm not even blaming Sansa for not thinking this through given how many other screw ups the writers have made.

Jon was already going south, so revealing the truth about his heritage wouldn't have changed things. Whether he marries Dany, ends up as king in his own right or dies in the upcoming war, the odds were very much against him returning to Winterfell (which was the reason that I believe he sent Ghost off with the Wildlings). 

Jon ruling Westeros would be the best thing for Northern independence because his sympathies would always lie there. At the very least, the North would have enough autonomy to run their own affairs without interference from Kings Landing and the seven kingdoms would be more of a confederation (with Jon as a president or prime minister kind of figure). 

[Drogo]

4 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

She killed all those ppl in mereen who.. By their own laws had done nothing legally wrong.. Slavery was legal and she just killed leaders of houses whether they had slaves or not.. Then crucified them

The ones who crucified 163 children as a welcome warning to her?  Yeah... fuck those guys. 

[Advance35]

Quote

Someone has to actually sit on the IT no matter how equal they tell the people the situation is. Dany knows that NO MATTER WHAT, all the people of Westeros will see Jon as the true King and person in power. If we were reading her thoughts rather than just watching a show, we'd probably see that she also understands people outside of Westeros would see him as King as well. The fact she has fallen so hard for him is all the evidence she needs that Jon is the type of ruler the people would truly love.

And this episode proved why the idea of them being married ISN'T a relief to Sansa.  Jon did not stand up for the North or it's soldiers in that war strategy meeting.  The Soldier's need rest and he didn't need to take Sansa's word for it.

Jon is just a "Yes Man" to Dany.  That's what he is as her lover and that's all he would be if they married.  He wouldn't stand up for the North in that war strategy meeting just because he's worried about her feelings.

The North and Sansa are on their own.  So Sansa is going to have to start "playing the game" that way.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Advance35

[staphdude]

Dany is becoming what she was destined to become...power crazed just like her brother and father before them. Delusions are steadily starting  to float more closely to the surface and her ultimate love of the throne above all else is palpable. She and Cersei are two sides of the same coin.

Shame it could never be Tyrion and Sansa ruling...

Edited May 6, 2019 by staphdude

[ShellsandCheese]

2 minutes ago, staphdude said:

shane it could never be Tyrion and Sansa ruling...

I can’t think of anything worse, maybe Bronn. LOL. Neither Sansa or Tyrion is as smart or as clever as they think they are. The problem is the writers have dumbed down characters who smart and tactical decisions in the past (Jon, Dany, Jaime) for the service of the plot. 

[tv-talk]

7 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

She was going to. In her rage she -- for a moment -- was making a run at the ships that could very well have turned out to be a suicide run.  But thankfully she veered off, realizing that Drogon was vulnerable

I'm not sure we can assume that Drogon is always 100% under Dany's control. Remember when the undead swarmed on him he shook them and Dany off and did not come back to save her. The dragons are Dany's children but they are dragons and not under mind control. The scene last night looked like Dany wanted to go for the burn in the face of all the artillery and Drogon veered off and flew to safety. What didnt make sense to me is how easily they could have come in behind the ships flying close to water line and torched at least all the ones in back with just one pass. Instead they flew away and watched their people get wiped out.

Edited May 6, 2019 by tv-talk

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Give any of the other characters on this show 3 dragons and certainly we'll see some with more Dragon Rage than Daenerys has ever shown. 

Can you imagine Cersei, Stannis, Joffrey, Littlefinger, Sansa, any of the Northern Lords, etc. with 3 Dragons?

Who would show as much or more restraint with dragons as Dany?  Probably Jon. Maybe Sam, Gill, Brienne, and Gendry. 

8 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The ones who crucified 163 children as a welcome warning to her?  Yeah... fuck those guys. 

"Slavery good...justice bad." - Every Dany hater   

[tv-talk]

3 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

The problem is the writers have dumbed down characters who smart and tactical decisions in the past (Jon, Dany, Jaime) for the service of the plot. 

It's really noticeable isnt it? In particular I've wondered if once GRRM stopped writing Tyrion if the HBO writers are simply not capable of  producing the same wit and intelligence in him that Martin did so well.

[Bryce Lynch]

On 5/6/2019 at 9:51 AM, staphdude said:

Dany is becoming what she was destined to become...power crazed just like her brother and father before them. Delusions are steadily starting  to float more closely to the surface and her ultimate love of the throne above all else is palpable. She and Cersei are two sides of the same coin.

Shame it could never be Tyrion and Sansa ruling...

I don't think she is having delusions.  Sansa, Tyrion and Varys are actively undermining her.  She just  lost her two best friends, half her troops and her 2nd child.

You aren't paranoid if people are really out to get you.   

Tyrion is a likable,  clever fool.  He would never be a good ruler. He has been a horrible adviser to Dany.  Sansa would turn into a mini Cersei with that power. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[GodsBeloved]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I haven't been a fan of the Dany vs Sansa thing since it began, but I think that a major issue when the dust settles (after Cersei is killed, fingers crossed) is that Dany is great at rallying the troops but she is shit at setting up infrastructure to provide stability for how a place should be run and how to maintain the peace. Her solution is always to have her dragons burn shit, which works when you're dealing with your enemies, but what about when it's your own people who are causing the issues? If you break the wheel by destroying the existing systems (as she did when she outlawed slavery), what is going to replace it? How will people work and live and eat? For example, if there isn't enough wheat being grown to feed everyone, your solution can't be to have your dragon burn the farmers if they can't magically produce more. You need solutions that don't involve burning people to a crisp. How can her subjects "live without fear and cruelty" if her only tactic is DRACARYS?

Daario did tell Daenerys that she's a conqueror not a ruler.

Edited May 6, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[MarySNJ]

49 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I think the actual point of Tormund's praise of Jon is not that poor Dany doesnt get the credit she so greatly deserves but rather that people LOVE Jon. That's something he has that she and Cersei simply do not and cannot. Jon is just about the ONLY good person left in the story and no matter how high-minded Dany's tells herself she is at the end of the day Jon is beloved because of who he is as a person. That scene was about Dany realizing if word got out about his lineage people far and wide would back him as the true King. I dont think it was about Dany being petty that Tormund was praising him. 

Tormund was happy for his friend Jon and celebrating Jon's heroism. I don't think he intended to slight Dany, and I'd bet he doesn't really understand the hierarchy and protocol of "southern" nobility and royalty. He's just celebrating his bro. 

But it does have to sting a bit for Dany, watching how much Jon is loved and respected when she sacrificed so much.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, tv-talk said:

It's really noticeable isnt it? In particular I've wondered if once GRRM stopped writing Tyrion if the HBO writers are simply not capable of  producing the same wit and intelligence in him that Martin did so well.

Maybe the celibacy has him all backed up and he can't think straight?  Could "Seinfeld" be wrong and men get dumber, not smarter when they don't think about sex? 

[GodsBeloved]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Tyrion told Jaime "I'm happy you're happy," I mentally added, "I'm happy you're finally fucking someone besides our sister."

[Helena Dax]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Have you considered the best ruler might be someone who doesn't want to rule? - Varys

Because that theory worked out so well with Robert Baratheon

This. 

Jon is a lot like Ned and Robb and we all know how they ended. In fact, Jon ended up in the same way, exactly for the same reasons -he didn't understand how far their enemies could go. The only difference is that Jon was lucky and could be resurrected. 

Daenerys can't share the Throne because Thrones aren't meant to be shared. The best shot for them is having Jon as King in the North and Danerys as Queen of the Six Kingdoms, two different realms with two royals married to other people, not to each other. (I think one of them will die, though).

Also, to avoid another war, Dany would have to renounce to everything she has been fighting for. To avoid another war, Jon had to shut the fuck up. I mean, why was so necessary to tell the truth? He doesn't want to be a Targaryen and he doesn't want to sit on the IT and he knows that telling the secret is the fastest way to start trouble -Dany told him herself. And the same goes for Littlesansa. The only person in that family with some sense is Arya.

I don't know if it was made on purpose, but when they were celebrating in the Hall I thought that Arya had killed the biggest threat, Lyanna had killed the second biggest threat and Dany had been closer to kill the NK than anyone but Arya. And yet everyone was cheering at Jon as the hero of the night. Ah, the wonders of having a penis... 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Helena Dax

[AnnaL]

8 hours ago, lvbalgurl said:

Not sure anyone's brought up Arya's pov in the Stark caucus.  However folks want to depict Sansa - that she's jealous and only out for herself and doesn't care about Jon - Arya feels none of those things.  I think that can be agreed upon.  She was appropriately grateful to Daenerys and allowed that they needed her army and dragons during the battle vs the NK's army.  But, she'd observed the war council and saw Daenerys react in a hostile, irrational way, ignoring the absolutely reasonable advice that they rest the Northern army, Unsullied, Dothraki and the dragons before rushing into another war.  She watched as Jon told her "what you command, we will obey".  That's when it seemed to dawn on her that this isn't right.  That it was in fact a dangerous approach to take with a Queen that seems irrationally driven by power.

Whatever people want to feel about Sansa's motives, Arya unambiguously wants the best for Team Stark, and, in her eyes, that's not gonna happen with Daenerys on the throne.  She was also super calm and rational when she spoke to Jon about this.

I found all of that really interesting.

One of my favorite moments of the episode. Team Stark. 

The only one who can't see what Dany really is, a woman who is mad for power and whose priority is to get the IT at all costs, is Jon. Arya is very good at reading people and even though she acknowledges that Dany's help was extremely valuable she knows she can't trust her. The eye language between Sansa and Arya was great. 

I wonder what Arya's reaction would have been if she learn that Daenerys tried to manipulate Jon into not telling them the truth? 

I am glad that it was Arya the one in charge of that reunion, as you pointed out, it was great to see that Arya's heart is to the North and not some fighting mad queens who could hold the future of the North on their crazy hands. 

Arya is going to KL not as part of Daenerys' army, she is going solo with the Hounds because she has pending business. That also was great to see. 

[UNOSEZ]

18 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

So, now freeing slaves is a BAD thing?  SMH.

She crucified a number a Masters equal to the number of innocent slave children they crucified.  That is justice, an eye for an eye. 

She married Hizdahr zo Loraq instead of killing him and the other Masters to try to form a peaceful alliance with them.   

She burned down the Khals tent to stop them from gang raping and killing her and to liberate the Khalsar from those monsters.    

It is amazing how people can spin good things Dany did into bad.  Cersei Lannisters Master of Propaganda couldn't do any better.   

By the laws of mereen it was murder.. She would've had a better leg to stand on if she at least made sure she killed masters who killed slaves.. She didn't even check... I'm glad she freed the slaves the fight to free the slaves is all good.. But when that was done what she did wasn't justice... I personally loved it... Doesn't change the fact of what it was... And I said all I said to say Dany is a conqueror with a violent streak and a savior complex... Like most monarchs I guess which is the point tyrion was making.. I dunno if that makes her better suited for the throne than anyone save cersei who everyone agrees is the worst... The examples were because ppl were saying they don't know where the descent into "madness" would come from I'm pointing out that regardless of any rationalization she's got that impulse to her.. She's actively fought it.. But its there that's all.. Dany is alright in my book never loved  her.. But I don't root against her.. But I do understand why some are wary of her

[JennyMominFL]

People seem to see mad and evil as the same thing. Some of these characters are evil some are ruthless, none are mad

Edited May 6, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[tv-talk]

2 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

And yet everyone was cheering at Jon ad the hero of the night. Ah, the wonders of having a penis... 

Jon's also not a scheming would-be-tyrant who doesnt think twice about killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people towards some divine purpose he believes he's been born into. So people actually like and love him a lot more than they do Cersei or Dany. The straightforwardness that is going to get him killed as it did Ned and Robb is a quality that makes him a natural ruler of the people. If we stop looking at it as men vs women but rather just the characters-  Jon has the moral compass and belief system that the masses naturally gravitate towards. Initially Dany had the same thing but over time with the decisions she's had to make and their consequences it's soured. 

[Popples]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Granted I only watched it once so far but I am not convinced Sansa told Tyrion about Jon.

IIRC, the writing was kind of cagey there. I thought he said that a Stark and a Targeryen would be the rightful heir. He could have been talking about Jon and Day having a child. Not that Jon is the Stark and a Targeryen himself.  Did miss something more specific that proves she spilled the beans?

Sansa told; the conversation with Tyrion and Varys on the ship pretty much confirmed it. Tyrion says they should just get married, Varys counters with Dany is Jon's aunt. Tyrion says that's never stopped the Targaryens before, then Varys reminds him that Jon was raised in The North where that practice isn't common.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Popples
Cleaned up some punctuation

[TaurusRose]

8 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Rushed writing, IMO. Varys made pretty clear that he was supporting Dany because he wanted a good ruler for Westeros and that he would have no problem dumping her in favor of someone  better.

Tyrion has been worrying about Dany doing something that will hurt people for ages now. Correct if I’m wrong but he knows she can’t have children so he may be thinking long term and about a future dinasty.

And let’s not forget, Jon IS the heir. Maybe they just think it will be easier to *keep* the throne with a) the rightful heir, b) someone who can have children, c) the  King in the North who already has the North’s support.

They just don’t have time to write all that.

Thanks for the Cliff Notes version.  LOL

8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

• • But on that note. Ned kept a secret for 17 years. Jon couldn't keep it for a week or so?

Why should Jon keep a secret about his identity now?  Robert is dead.  There isn't a threat to him on that level.  I don't believe Dany would harm him because of that, but if she tries...then maybe she is going nuts.

7 hours ago, lvbalgurl said:

But the North wouldn't be independent under Daenerys.  That's the issue.  

Who says they won't?  Yara asked for independence back in Meereen and Daenerys granted it.  

[JennyMominFL]

25 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The ones who crucified 163 children as a welcome warning to her?  Yeah... fuck those guys. 

And this is why some of us view Dany differently. To me, this and other things are not OK

[AnnaL]

7 hours ago, rmontro said:

Missandei even called for dracarys with her dying words.  Does that make her insane too?  She wants to be avenged with Fire and Blood, and she should be. 

This episode had me so discouraged, I was almost hoping they would kill Tyrion.  "Sure, why not?  Might as well kill him too.  Kill everybody, who cares?".

They must have spent all their creative energy on last week, because this week was bad, in more ways than one.

I love Missandei and cried upon her death. 

BUT 

Missandie has no emotional investment of the people of Westerns, she doesn't know them and for all she has experienced they are not nice people. It is not hard for her to wish them all dead. Let's see if she would be in the same situation in the island of Nath and her people were the ones who would get roasted, would she have said Dracarys then? 

Daenerys and her very poor planning are to blame for Missandei's death, she could have prevented this with a little bit of time and planning. 

[UNOSEZ]

23 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The ones who crucified 163 children as a welcome warning to her?  Yeah... fuck those guys. 

But she didn't know who was who she just killed 163 ppl...  Imagine ur the lord of a house who didn't have slaves and one of your kids was taken to be crucified by some outsider and her foreign army... I wouldn't be happy about that

23 minutes ago, Drogo said:

[JennyMominFL]

19 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

"Slavery good...justice bad." - Every Dany hater   

Thats not justice, its revenge

[Yodabeesh]

Dany is obviously going to go bat-sh*t crazy the next episode:

1. She lost dragon-baby #1 at the end of last season
2. She lost dragon-baby #2 last night
3. She lost Jorah
4. She just watched her BFF get her head chopped off
5. She's already consumed with jealousy and feels threatened by Jon.

Missandei's "Dracarys!" call was her way of saying, "screw it, girl. Torch the city." Dany's bat-sh*t enough at this point that she'll probably do it.

Did anyone else think that Tyrion was going to get a Scorpion spear through his little body when he strolled up to KL? I mean, anything goes this season and it's matter of time that an A-list character gets it (no offense to those that have died so far). Let's face it - someone is going to die every episode.

I think that the next episode will probably bring in the elephant-less Golden Company which probably means that someone is going to die.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Yodabeesh

[Sakura12]

None of the Northerners know that. Dany did that on another continent. And you could also look at as she freed women and slaves from tyrants that, used them for entertainment, raped them and cut off their dicks. 

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

No, because Jon bent the knee and Daenerys is their Queen.  They don't get to pick and choose when they support her; that's called treason. 

Still the greatest Snowmund scene, IMO, particularly the Elizabeth Bennett/Mark Darcy moment at 1:50:

Snowmund, now this is the ship worth sailing on!

[cambridgeguy]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

Who says they won't?  Yara asked for independence back in Meereen and Daenerys granted it.  

Eh, no one likes the Iron Islands anyway.  If Dany gives up the North then she forfeits almost half the country - it would be like Russia giving up Siberia.

[MrWhyt]

9 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

By the laws of mereen it was murder..

yeah but the laws of mereen also allowed slavery, so fuck those guys.