S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[Scaeva]

4 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Who was the dead person at the beginning that Arya was mourning?

Daenerys lost Jorah and numerous Unsullied and Dothraki last episode, and this week she loses Rhaegel and Missandei.  Everything is crashing down around her.  I hope she roasts Euron at least.

Beric Dondarrian. 

He is the guy that died saving Arya's life during the battle of Winterfell.

[For Cereals]

I’m not mad at Sansa.  

I also don’t see it as Jon abandoning Ghost.  Because of all the supernatural elements, I think they are linked.  I kind of see the farther northern regions as being healing for Ghost who looked a little beat up.  Kind of like his fortress of solitude.  I feel like he could sense if something were truly wrong with Jon and he would be there.  Plus, since it seems like you can get to any of the kingdoms in a day, so this isn’t a far stretch.

First I was pissed about the Jamie and Brienne thinking it was a pity thing, but I can see the love there.

Any speculation about all the wheelchair talk?  My hubby thinks Bran was throwing something out there, but we don’t Zabruder this stuff so we have no idea except that Bran doesn’t say much so it must be important.

Every time I see Euron, I can’t help but think of Pacey/Joshua Jackson. 

[rmontro]

3 minutes ago, childeroland said:

Beric Dondarion

1 minute ago, Scaeva said:

Beric Dondarrian. 

Thanks, I didn't recognize him without his flaming sword  🙂

[rmontro]

5 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Hilarious (to me) that Jon swears Sansa to secrecy, then he leaves & she jumps on groupchat.

I had to admire Bran in that scene, he made Jon choose whether or not the family would be told.  He said "It's up to you".  He probably knew Sansa would run her mouth, so now Jon can't go back and blame Bran for encouraging him to tell (not that he would).  Still, smart of Bran to appear neutral.

[UNOSEZ]

38 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

One thing I'm confused on is when Varys and Tyrion did an about-face and decided Dany isn't the right leader for the Kingdoms?

Up until this point, she's listened to her advisors, refrained from burning KL for the sake of sparing innocents, gave the Tarlys several chances to surrender before roasting them, lost a dragon to bail Jon out, helped the North defeat the NK, actively fought in that battle and sat by quietly while Tormund gave Jon credit for the win. It was also Dany who reminded everyone that Arya won the war.

They act like they're relieved to have Jon as a replacement and I can't figure out where it's coming from. Or is it just poorly rushed writing?

Well for one... They have to keep counseling her from burning everything.. Her constant talk of her right to the throne.. That whole destiny bit.. And the real life fear of what her father was.. I think if anything is missing its how real of a monster the mad king was and how scared everyone old enough to remember is of living thru that... And he only had wildfire... She's got dragons... Well a dragon now.. Bit still

[Bryce Lynch]

41 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

One thing I'm confused on is when Varys and Tyrion did an about-face and decided Dany isn't the right leader for the Kingdoms?

Up until this point, she's listened to her advisors, refrained from burning KL for the sake of sparing innocents, gave the Tarlys several chances to surrender before roasting them, lost a dragon to bail Jon out, helped the North defeat the NK, actively fought in that battle and sat by quietly while Tormund gave Jon credit for the win. It was also Dany who reminded everyone that Arya won the war.

They act like they're relieved to have Jon as a replacement and I can't figure out where it's coming from. Or is it just poorly rushed writing?

I think maybe Tyrion is getting conned by Varys, whose "I serve the realm" motto is being exposed as a load of crap.

[VCRTracking]

[haje]

gendry, oh boy gendry. you get legitimized and suddenly you lose a few braincells. he started off so well lmao (her face when he called her beautiful was so sweet) and then he kept going..... i do hope we get more of them aside from that???? cause it ended too abruptly imo and i'd like to think arya's arc ends with her choosing her family and love and not just going off on her own again (which btw i thought her comment about not coming back was her not going back to wf but thinking about it more, i'm guessing she meant she thinks she's going to die in kings landing).

 and the jaime/brienne stuff was genuinely great. ncw and gwen are so good together. i'd be more mad about the last jaime/brienne scene but like everything about it points to him going to king's landing to kill cersei. the writing could have been better but this is game of thrones and they've always put tricking the audience over having characters actually have a conversation to talk about their motivations so. i'll take it. if i'm wrong then.... fuck these writers even more. also i don't get some of the complaints i've seen regarding brienne getting emotional and people acting as if it's out of character. brienne is extremely loyal and gets emotional over people she loves and it's clear she loves jaime. just remember her reaction to when gendry died. and most of the final scene with them was yes, her asking him to stay but also her telling him that if he goes back to cersei he will probably die and it's him regressing when she knows he's a better person than that. out of all the issues in this episode, i don't think the brienne/jaime stuff was one of them.

anyway the hound and arya should just go on their murderous adventures and forget about king's landing. go have fun you two.

Edited May 6, 2019 by haje

[UNOSEZ]

As to why sansa at least initially isnt super warm to  Dany.. Most of the northerners grow up super wary of outsiders.. In that way Arya and Jon are diff from early  they seemed to get on with outsiders better.. Dany's father murdered her grandfather and uncle and laughed about it.. Until they found out Jon' s parentage they thought her brother kidnapped.. Raped then killed her aunt... Even if she personally could've looked past all that.. Politically she was on shaky ground as those fickle ass northern lords def  weren't gonna be happy about some targaryen calling herself their queen... Then add that Its obvious that Jon is in love with her and she's seen what men in love do... And then there's what's known of Dany... She burns ppl.. She doesn't respect anything she deems unworthy( I'm glad she ended slavery in those places) . But she did trample over the way things had been unilaterally and killed anyone who said anything... And now she's bringing her rash.. Opinionated self and her dragons to Winterfell.. And off the bat throws her weight around... So while I still think she was too salty to Dany I get why they played it that way... 

On another note Dany got the second sons third in command to kill his two commanders because he wanted her.. She got the dothraki by murder burning a good many of their leaders to death and she got the unsullied for free because her dragon burned the slaver alive.... 3 armies for no money down... That's good business

[catrox14]

Fuck. I am so upset about Missandre, Rhaegal and Ghost.  :(

Oh. and Cersei can die anytime now.  

[Armchair Critic]

3 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Jon told Sansa and Arya the truth.

And then they cheated us of the reaction shot.

That was some bullshit not getting to see their reaction.

[lvbalgurl]

Not sure anyone's brought up Arya's pov in the Stark caucus.  However folks want to depict Sansa - that she's jealous and only out for herself and doesn't care about Jon - Arya feels none of those things.  I think that can be agreed upon.  She was appropriately grateful to Daenerys and allowed that they needed her army and dragons during the battle vs the NK's army.  But, she'd observed the war council and saw Daenerys react in a hostile, irrational way, ignoring the absolutely reasonable advice that they rest the Northern army, Unsullied, Dothraki and the dragons before rushing into another war.  She watched as Jon told her "what you command, we will obey".  That's when it seemed to dawn on her that this isn't right.  That it was in fact a dangerous approach to take with a Queen that seems irrationally driven by power.

Whatever people want to feel about Sansa's motives, Arya unambiguously wants the best for Team Stark, and, in her eyes, that's not gonna happen with Daenerys on the throne.  She was also super calm and rational when she spoke to Jon about this.

I found all of that really interesting.

Edited May 6, 2019 by lvbalgurl

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

One thing I'm confused on is when Varys and Tyrion did an about-face and decided Dany isn't the right leader for the Kingdoms?

Up until this point, she's listened to her advisors, refrained from burning KL for the sake of sparing innocents, gave the Tarlys several chances to surrender before roasting them, lost a dragon to bail Jon out, helped the North defeat the NK, actively fought in that battle and sat by quietly while Tormund gave Jon credit for the win. It was also Dany who reminded everyone that Arya won the war.

They act like they're relieved to have Jon as a replacement and I can't figure out where it's coming from. Or is it just poorly rushed writing?

Rushed writing, IMO. Varys made pretty clear that he was supporting Dany because he wanted a good ruler for Westeros and that he would have no problem dumping her in favor of someone  better.

Tyrion has been worrying about Dany doing something that will hurt people for ages now. Correct if I’m wrong but he knows she can’t have children so he may be thinking long term and about a future dinasty.

And let’s not forget, Jon IS the heir. Maybe they just think it will be easier to *keep* the throne with a) the rightful heir, b) someone who can have children, c) the  King in the North who already has the North’s support.

They just don’t have time to write all that.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Raachel2008

[rmontro]

16 minutes ago, haje said:

gendry, oh boy gendry. you get legitimized and suddenly you lose a few braincells. he started off so well lmao (her face when he called her beautiful was so sweet) and then he kept going..... i do hope we get more of them aside from that?

Poor Gendry, he was just being a typical stupid man there, who allowed himself to get overwhelmed by the charms of a woman.  I wonder how he'd feel knowing she went off with the Hound?

12 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

That was some bullshit not getting to see their reaction.

Jon:  "Guys, I've been having sex with my aunt.  But it's okay, because we're Targaryens".

[Brn2bwild]

I hate that Dany and Sansa can't just talk to each other normally.  I hate that no two woman on this show can have a casual conversation.  Even men who despise each other on GoT can usually bond over how long their cock is or how much they shit before a battle. 

[Andromeda]

3 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Dany HAS TO torch Kings Landing. Collateral be damned. I am that pissed

The blood of every life lost is on Cercei and Cercei alone. I dare anyone who says otherwise 

Seriously. They think Dany's going to turn into a Mad Queen? Wipe out ALL OF THEM, the ungrateful fucks. The more I think about it, the angrier I get about their treatment of Dany. 

Another dragon killed? Just like that? Boom, he's dead? Too quick, too soon. Too EASY. She has now lost two of her children and her best friend. Any revenge coming from her is WELL EARNED, and does not make her insane. Kings have burned cities to the ground for less, but she's a woman, so she's therefore unreasonable? God, I am so pissed right now.

I have always admired Varys' desire to stand up for the little people, but how is thrusting the realm into yet another civil war any way to do that (Jon vs. Dany)? And saying they shouldn't wed because she's stronger than Jon? That tells me Varys prefers a Jon because he sees him as a weak ruler he can manipulate.

Dany is not unstable, she has never been unstable. Every action she's taken has been necessitated by events. But her advisors are frustrated because she doesn't always take their advice -- because somehow that makes her nuts? As if Tyrion is always right, when he clearly isn't. But Dany won't be manipulated by Tyrion or Varys — I'll buy that. I really does smack of sexism in many ways -- she's a GIRL, we have to prefer the guy over the girl for the top job. He, guys, I used to love you, but go suck it.

Cersei seems to have much better advisors -- smart enough to put those big scorpions on the ramparts. Which they had time to do while Dany was saving the North, and getting shit on for it.

Sansa really sucks -- she learned too well from Littlefinger. She's become just like him!

Arya sees clearly, but she left Sansa to her own manipulative devices. I would love for Arya to go off and explore the world, away from the mired mess in Westeros.

I have a feeling the ending will be mostly unsatisfactory, except for Cersei getting her just desserts.

[lucindabelle]

Woof, so many problems this episode.

I was sad when Rhaegal died but not devastated and sobbing like I was with Viseryion. Why?

With Viseryon's death, the suspense was Hitchcock-ian. And itbuilt on the suspense from earlier episodes with qyburn building the weapon, with Drogon being wounded.

We saw the NK lift the spear. We saw Dany and others not seeing it.

Here it all happened so fast.

And yeah. What about all those boats, from a treeless island? The hell?

Why didn't Bran warn them?

• No pat on the head for ghost? I get he's CGI but the internet is mad now, producers. lame lame lame.
• What is UP with Sansa and Resting Bitch Face? Her suggestion of rest wasn't wrong. But who the fuck walks into a conference room of managers with a proposal and then no solution? LIE. Say, "I suggest three weeks," settle for two. It's not as if she's never seen tired and sick people before.
  • She learned NOTHING from Littlefinger, who managed to convince everyone he was trustworthy. She's barely civil, ffs.
• STOP WITH THE DANY IS BECOME MAD QUEEN NONSENSE. I feel like I should take a drink every time Varys worries about it. For seven, count em, seven seasons we've seen Dany only really care about power because she was being pursued. Had Robert's assassins not come after her she might have lived happily enough with Drogo. We saw her reject Daario in order to make a marriage alliance. Yet the idea of an alliance doesn't occur to her with jon? She stayed in Essos for a whole season rather than rush to KL, now she could't wait a few weeks to go south to Dragonshome, with Rhaegal still wobbly? And no intel?
  • And: THE DANY WE'VE KNOWN WOULD NEVER, NEVER HAVE ASKED JON TO LIE. NEVER.
    • I don't buy that her burning the Tarlys was madness. They were defeated traitors that she executed using the weapon to hand.
  • But on that note. Ned kept a secret for 17 years. Jon couldn't keep it for a week or so?
• What would make Tyrion think telling his sister "your reign is over" is a good idea?
  • That was just an ambassadorial remnant, right? Not the WHOLE ARMY? Because if I were Cersei looking down at her I sure as Hell wouldn't feel I'd lost.
• HOW would Drogon dracarys anything with those anti-ballistic missiles everywhere?
  • Does this mean no more baby dragons?

If Drogon dies next episode, I'm out.

This episode is first one that REALLY felt badly written to me. Meh.

[tv-talk]

3 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

But Dany won't be manipulated by Tyrion or Varys — I'll buy that. I really does smack of sexism in many ways -- she's a GIRL, we have to prefer the guy over the girl for the top job.

I dont even understand what Varys wants. If Dany died and Jon was made King, whose to say he'd even go to war with KL? He'd just as likely go home and suggest what's left of the Unsullied and Dothrakis do the same.

[rmontro]

1 minute ago, Brn2bwild said:

I hate that Dany and Sansa can't just talk to each other normally.  I hate that no two woman on this show can have a casual conversation.  

Yeah, this show often gets criticized as being overly feminist.  But I'd say this episode was the opposite.

I know I'm posting a lot but this episode kind of depressed me, and talking here is good for coping.  What with the full scale assassination of Dany's character, Rhaegel and Missandei getting killed, and Ghost not even getting a fare thee well.

2 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Seriously. They think Dany's going to turn into a Mad Queen?

Apparently she is, because they've had practically every character tell us that she is, from Arya and Sansa to Dany's closest advisors.  Oddly, the only person who doesn't see it is Jon Snow, who everybody wants to take over the throne from her.  Why do they think he's such a great choice if he can't see what everybody else supposedly does?

Seriously, I hate what they're doing with Dany's character.  About the only way they can redeem her at this point is have her decide to give the throne over to Jon.  But more likely they'll just kill her off.

[sally-can-wait]

I personally don’t have a problem with Sansa spilling the beans to Tyrion about Jon but it really feels like it should have been a season long secret for her to keep. I want to see her at least talk it through with Arya and really struggle with what to do for at least a couple of episodes (we didn’t even see the two of them speak after!). But no, we get no discussion between the sisters and all of a sudden 5 minutes later the cat’s out of the bag. Sadly we are no longer afforded the slow walk of seasons 1-6 and now are suddenly sprinting to a jarring finish. And without even knowing the ending I already feel cheated.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, Vella said:

YES. All of this.  The look on her face when Tormund bragged about Jon doing things that Dany had been doing all along. Oof. What woman didn't feel that gut punch?  Watching a man get praised and cheered for things she did long before him. And Jon only got on the dragon because Dany offered it to him.

It reminds me of when Sam told Jon he read about Jon's true lineage at the Citadel, when it was GILLY who read about it. Sam ignored it and stomped off.  Suddenly it was "I read about it" when it wasn't him. It was Gilly.

To be fair, Sam told *Bran* he was transcribing the books and they said that Rhaegar’s marriage was annulled. Then Sam told Jon “I had the grand sept’ s diaries and Bran has whatever he has”. None of this is a lie and none of this translate to Sam stomping off.

And I don’t think the scene with Tormund women x men, or anything like that. I think it was about local X foreigner,  look what one of us was capable of doing. Tormund has been on Jon’s side for ages, and he knows Jon has been trying to end the NK threat for ages. He was praising his friend, while talking to his friend, about how he is proud of him etc etc. I think it was also to show Dany that Jon is loved and respected by many, and that for those people Jon (and the Starks by default) will always come first. 

[Andromeda]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Yeah, this show often gets criticized as being overly feminist.  But I'd say this episode was the opposite.

I know I'm posting a lot but this episode kind of depressed me, and talking here is good for coping.  What with the full scale assassination of Dany's character, Rhaegel and Missandei getting killed, and Ghost not even getting a fare thee well.

Apparently she is, because they've had practically every character tell us that she is, from Arya and Sansa to Dany's closest advisors.  Oddly, the only person who doesn't see it is Jon Snow, who everybody wants to take over the throne from her.  Why do they think he's such a great choice if he can't see what everybody else supposedly does?

Seriously, I hate what they're doing with Dany's character.  About the only way they can redeem her at this point is have her decide to give the throne over to Jon.  But more likely they'll just kill her off.

The weird thing is, Dany is behaving fairly logically. It's everyone else deciding to see her differently for no real reason! It makes no sense. What did she do to make them turn on her all of a sudden? Save the stupid North? Have dragons? Not be a male? Fuck that.

[lvbalgurl]

21 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I hate that Dany and Sansa can't just talk to each other normally.  I hate that no two woman on this show can have a casual conversation.  Even men who despise each other on GoT can usually bond over how long their cock is or how much they shit before a battle. 

I agree.  I'm very much in Sansa's corner but I would have loved if they could have finished the really fantastic conversation they had in Ep 2.  When you're a victim of rape and brutality, that informs your decisions.  Sansa isn't just fighting for Northern independence and safety, she's fighting for her own.  Jon being on the IT means that nothing like what she went through with Joffrey and Ramsey will ever happen again.  And that's because Jon will put her in a position of power in the North and WF, and, with that power, she's going to make sure she's never a victim again.

If they could truly discuss what both of them have been through, I think (hope) they could come to a common ground.

Edited May 6, 2019 by lvbalgurl

[tv-talk]

2 minutes ago, lvbalgurl said:

And that's because Jon will put her in a position of power in the North and WF, and, with that power, she's going to make sure she's never a victim again.

The thing is, if she had just kept the secret she would have basically been Queen of the North and safe. Instead she undercut the very force sent to rid the world of Cersei. The very force made up of her own people. It doesnt make sense unless she is hoping 1)Dany is betrayed and killed then 2)Jon simply comes back North and 3)Cersei decides to just leave them alone.

The only reason she'd do that is if what she really wants is for a Stark to rule the 7 Kingdoms.

[Bannon]

This really is professional malpractice by writers, with regard to a terrific cast of actors. I mean,  I don't take a t.v. show seriously at all, but I don't care if I'm talking about the garbage collector who picks up my trash, the person who was at the cash register when I went to Costco yesterday, or a writer who produces the script for the most talked about t.v. show in the world, I want people to do the effing job right, if they take money for it. 

We have some actors who are really committed to their craft here, tied to some some if the laziest goddamned writing that a human being could imagine. Through about 40 minutes, I thought some of the spoilers I read today were off. I was actually enjoying the episode, even if it wasn't perfect. Then two hacks who apprarently don't want to earn their money just mailed in a huge pile of steaming feces for the balance of the episode. I mean, to say this was middle school level story construction really is an insult to 12 year olds. Sheer effing numbskullery. 

[rmontro]

4 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

The weird thing is, Dany is behaving fairly logically. It's everyone else deciding to see her differently for no real reason! It makes no sense. What did she do to make them turn on her all of a sudden? Save the stupid North? Have dragons? Not be a male? Fuck that.

I guess they fell in love with Jon Snow's handsome face.  

Dany's always been a bit full of herself, but I think it was Tyrion who said you need a bit of ruthlessness to be a ruler.  Ned Stark was a good man, but his reluctance to play the game hurt him.  Jon is pretty much the same.  I've been pretty much resigned to Jon being on the Iron Throne at the end for several years now, but you're right it's bad writing to have everybody turn on Dany on a dime, out of nowhere.  Meanwhile, she's losing everyone and everything around her, it's hard to watch.

[tv-talk]

8 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

And I don’t think the scene with Tormund women x men, or anything like that. I think it was about local X foreigner,  look what one of us was capable of doing. Tormund has been on Jon’s side for ages, and he knows Jon has been trying to end the NK threat for ages. He was praising his friend, while talking to his friend, about how he is proud of him etc etc. I think it was also to show Dany that Jon is loved and respected by many, and that for those people Jon (and the Starks by default) will always come first. 

Yep and it was also to remind that EVERYONE sees Jon as type of person who should be King. His whole story arc revolves around having this way about him that makes people believe in him and want to follow him. Everyone is playing GoT but him, yet he's the person most people would want as their ruler. Jon is royalty on a level the others arent and not just by birth but by that too.

[Andromeda]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I guess they fell in love with Jon Snow's handsome face.  

Dany's always been a bit full of herself, but I think it was Tyrion who said you need a bit of ruthlessness to be a ruler.  Ned Stark was a good man, but his reluctance to play the game hurt him.  Jon is pretty much the same.  I've been pretty much resigned to Jon being on the Iron Throne at the end for several years now, but you're right it's bad writing to have everybody turn on Dany on a dime, out of nowhere.  Meanwhile, she's losing everyone and everything around her, it's hard to watch.

Remember the Queen of Thornes' advice to Dany? Ignore your advisors, BE A DRAGON. That was one female badass talking. But apparently Dany is doing something wrong.... What? Merely kissing Jon, rather than kissing up to him?

[Vella]

13 minutes ago, lvbalgurl said:

Not sure anyone's brought up Arya's pov in the Stark caucus.  However folks want to depict Sansa - that she's jealous and only out for herself and doesn't care about Jon - Arya feels none of those things.  I think that can be agreed upon.  She was appropriately grateful to her and allowed that they needed her army and dragons during the battle vs the NK's army.  But, she'd observed the war council and saw Daenerys react in a hostile, irrational way, ignoring the absolutely reasonable advice that they rest the Northern army, Unsullied, Dothraki and the dragons before rushing into another war.  She watched as Jon told her "what you command, we will obey".  That's when it seemed to dawn on her that this isn't right.  That it was in fact a dangerous approach to take with a Queen that seems irrationally driven by power.

Whatever people want to feel about Sansa's motives, Arya unambiguously wants the best for Team Stark, and, in her eyes, that's not gonna happen with Daenerys on the throne.  She was also super calm and rational when she spoke to Jon about this.

I found all of that really interesting.

Arya was the one who said Dany was "not one of us" and that was a reason not to trust HIS queen. Despite the fact that Dany fought just as hard and suffered just as much. I wouldn't call that rational, just because it was calm.  She saw things the way a Northerner would.  The impression I got from both Arya and Sansa, is that they saw the NK as the threat. That threat is gone. They don't want to reciprocate for Dany and join HER battle because it would ultimately mean the North is ruled by a non-Stark.

They see her as a threat. Jon was SUCH a moron to tell them the truth after that.

[tv-talk]

2 minutes ago, Vella said:

They don't want to reciprocate for Dany and join HER battle because it would ultimately mean the North is ruled by a non-Stark.

but what happens when Cersei Lannister comes knocking on their doors a few months later? I think the struggle between Dany and the North should have taken place at WF once Jon's lineage was revealed and the people knew. The show is coming to a close now tho so there is no time for that, instead Sansa basically sabotages the North's strike at Cersei for some unknown reason.

[millennium]

I think Jon didn't say goodbye to Ghost because it wasn't goodbye.   I expect Jon Snow will survive whatever happens, and in the final scene he'll leave everything behind to go live north of the Wall where Ghost will be waiting. 

Things that surprised me tonight:

1) Rhaegal got killed.  They set that up nicely, with the poor dragon learning to fly again, then Jon saying how he needs time to heal, and we're thinking, yeah, the little dragon's gonna be okay.

2) Tyrion didn't get killed.  It was palpable how tempted Cersei was, how tempted the writers were ... 

3) Missandei didn't take matters into her own hands and step off the platform, denying Cersei the pleasure of taking her life.

4) The piss-poor strategic planning by Danaerys and friends.   Of all the assumptions they should have made regarding Cersei's military capabilities, the very FIRST should have been that she would mass-produce Scorpions and have them locked and loaded for the dragons.  

Again I feel compelled to state just how much I can't stand the hammy portrayal of Euron.  Why doesn't he wear a top hat and twirl his mustache as he stands at Cersei's side?  And doesn't Cersei get that he's planning to kill her at the first opportunity?

One last thought: Is Rhaegal truly dead?  Cersei asks Euron "and you're sure about the dragon?"  and he says, "I saw him sink below the waves."  Euron's certainty is ironic, and perhaps misplaced.  Consider the Greyjoy credo:

"What is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger."

You'll recall, Euron himself sank below the waves and died, only to be reborn.

Just saying.

Edited May 6, 2019 by millennium

[lucindabelle]

Sadly, Rhaegal's head exploded before he sank under the waves. He's dead.

[lvbalgurl]

8 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

The thing is, if she had just kept the secret she would have basically been Queen of the North and safe. Instead she undercut the very force sent to rid the world of Cersei. The very force made up of her own people. It doesnt make sense unless she is hoping 1)Dany is betrayed and killed then 2)Jon simply comes back North and 3)Cersei decides to just leave them alone.

The only reason she'd do that is if what she really wants is for a Stark to rule the 7 Kingdoms.

But the North wouldn't be independent under Daenerys.  That's the issue.  She wants them to be free to govern themselves, and Dany is opposed.  So, as Dany continues to make a grab for the entire pie, Sansa will do the same - through Jon.  One of them would need to give way and both are unwilling.

Personally, I see Sansa's side more simply because what she wants is quite easy for Daenerys to give.  Even if the North were independent, they would always come to her aid in times of war b/c of Jon (who would be King in the North), so it feels like a simple conversation between the two women would resolve so much of this.

[millennium]

3 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Sadly, Rhaegal's head exploded before he sank under the waves. He's dead.

really?  How did I miss that?

Now my head's gonna explode.

(well, I think my idea of Rhaegal coming back from the dead is better than what the writers gave us; I would have loved to see him rise from the water in the final episode and fry Greyjoy on his own petard)

Edited May 6, 2019 by millennium

[tv-talk]

7 minutes ago, lvbalgurl said:

But the North wouldn't be independent under Daenerys.  That's the issue.  She wants them to be free to govern themselves, and Dany is opposed. 

with her brother married to the Queen, the North would be independent in everything but name. She basically pulled a Littlefinger and is hoping somehow the information gets Dany killed. The WORST thing about this episode is we didnt get the convo between Jon, Sansa, and Arya after Bran broke the news. Would have loved to see Sansa and Arya make case to Jon that for sake of their family he had to take the IT. Instead we get Gendry asking Arya to marry him. Great.

I guess GRRM is insisting some good scenes are left for him to write.

Edited May 6, 2019 by tv-talk

[rmontro]

9 minutes ago, millennium said:

2) Tyrion didn't get killed.  It was palpable how tempted Cersei was, how tempted the writers were ... 

3) Missandei didn't take matters into her own hands and step off the platform, denying Cersei the pleasure of taking her life.

Missandei even called for dracarys with her dying words.  Does that make her insane too?  She wants to be avenged with Fire and Blood, and she should be. 

This episode had me so discouraged, I was almost hoping they would kill Tyrion.  "Sure, why not?  Might as well kill him too.  Kill everybody, who cares?".

They must have spent all their creative energy on last week, because this week was bad, in more ways than one.

[Vella]

21 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

To be fair, Sam told *Bran* he was transcribing the books and they said that Rhaegar’s marriage was annulled. Then Sam told Jon “I had the grand sept’ s diaries and Bran has whatever he has”. None of this is a lie and none of this translate to Sam stomping off.

Gilly was the one reading aloud. Sam would not have heard it otherwise.  She may not have been doing detective work and she certainly didn't understand what it all meant (neither did Sam), but then later he told Jon that he and Bran had worked it out. They didn't. Bran told him 99% of the story and based on what Gilly read, only then was Sam able to put 2+2 together. And THAT is a common thing to see, a woman's contribution being ignored, even if it's just reading something aloud. It's a small but valuable thing.

[steelyis]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

While Cersei, once again, outwitted her enemies, I think she made a mistake by killing Missandei.  She was a valuable hostage.  Would Grey Worm and Dany be prepared to burn down KL with her as a captive? 

Now, Dany and Grey Worm are both going to be in kill Cersei suicide mission mode.  

It is similar to Joffrey killing Ned. 

55 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

Yup, totally shades of Joffrey and Ned. Back then Cersei knew what a blunder test was. Now, she's so far gone she's fine with lighting the match and watching the world burn. 

It was a huge mistake.

Cersei thinks she's as prepared as she needs to be to beat Dany. So why would she need a hostage who's hardly more than a servant? In Cersei's mind the only value Missandei had was to send a message: Fuck with me and this is what happens.

What Cersei doesn't understand yet is that she's only seen the restrained side of Dany. The side that put her quest for the crown on hold and asked for a truce . The side that seemingly cares about collateral damage. Cersei believes Dany doesn't have the stomach to fight Cersei on Cersei's level. And she is wrong.

40 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

OMG, why didn't they send scouts/spies ahead? How could they not have seen that attack coming? (Or why didn't Bran see it? 🤔).

Right?

If I had Bran at my disposal I would be asking him to spill all the tea.

38 minutes ago, KatWay said:

Sansa can't be trusted. She's been shaped and molded in her way of thinking and acting by Littlefinger and Cersei, two of the worst people on this show. And she never had the Stark code of honor in the first place. It's an interesting parallel to the first season, Sansa not being able to keep a secret. I'm sure she's thinking a few steps ahead...but for what outcome? Sansa is looking out for herself/her own and nobody else at this point. Dany hasn't done anything to her (yet) but Sansa dislikes her cause she's threatening them in a way and she's already plotting to get rid of her.

I have a soft spot for Sansa, but the part in bold makes me realize she hasn't really shown much honor or integrity when the chips were down. Sansa's been in survival mode for so long she's never had the luxury. Still, it's hard to root for her right now; because she does have more in common with schemers like Cersei and Littlefinger than with the show's more principled characters.

[Scaeva]

14 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

The weird thing is, Dany is behaving fairly logically. It's everyone else deciding to see her differently for no real reason! It makes no sense. What did she do to make them turn on her all of a sudden? Save the stupid North? Have dragons? Not be a male? Fuck that.

She isn't being entirely logical. While she was proven justified in her distrust of Sansa, her unease with Jon being a potential threat to her is completely unfounded. It does not matter how many people want Jon to be king, he doesn't want it, and he is Ned Stark's son despite being fathered by Rhaegar. It's just not in him to betray her for power. She's being paranoid.

Her storming off after watching Tormund drunkingly praise Jon for some things she's been doing longer (dragon riding) was also nothing more than petty jealousy & more of that paranoia. Of course Tormund was praising Jon. He's Jon's man, not hers. It was Jon that brought the Wildings south of the wall as allies. It's Jon that he's befriended in the trenches after fighting beside each other for months (years?). Dany may have been as heroic as Jon in the defense of Winterfell, but she is a stranger to him. Tormund also doesn't care who sits on the Iron Throne. He's a foreigner who wants to return home and isn't a player in the Game of Thrones. If that had been Tyrion or Varys giving that speech, she'd have cause for concern, but not with Tormund.

Her demand that Jon keep his parentage secret (with an implied "Or else") was also fairly revealing about her true motivations, and it's not a good look. Jon would be above her in the line of succession even if he were were a she and born as Joan Targaryen (Snow), so her claim to the throne is not truly about liberating Westeros from usurpers or breaking any wheels. She's as power hungry as the rest of the would-be kings & queens we've met in this series with the exception of Jon, who seems to be the only person with a potential claim that does not want the Iron Throne. 

All she has to do to settle the succession crisis among the Targaryen claimants is to marry Jon, but she's too concerned she'll end up playing second fiddle (Again, paranoia. Jon does not want to rule which means she'd be the true power in Westeros even he's the king and she's the queen consort, and he's just as likely to kneel and be her king consort) to seemingly consider that.

Jon being Ned's son I think Daenerys would probably be a much better monarch, as Jon's too honest, trusting, and good for the job. But people aren't wrong in giving Daenerys the side eye. She's earning it with her behavior.

Tyrion & Varys aren't wrong in wondering whether Daenerys is any different from any other king or queen Westeros has had, if she's willing to torch the nation's capital and butcher hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians she's supposedly liberating. If that is the route she chooses, she's every bit the blood-soaked tyrant her father was.  They're not wrong in suspecting she might, against advice, as Daenerys has always had a bit of a ruthless streak. She would have already torched one city if left to her own devices, and her execution of Dickon Tarly was vindictive and excessive.

[Lady Iris]

One bright light this week was Arya and Clegane riding traveling together again.

That and everything with Jamie and Brienne just up til the end.

Oh and Podrick with his silly grin at the prospect of some Northern poontang. 

[lvbalgurl]

10 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

with her brother married to the Queen, the North would be independent in everything but name. She basically pulled a Littlefinger and is hoping somehow the information gets Dany killed. The WORST thing about this episode is we didnt get the convo between Jon, Sansa, and Arya after Bran broke the news. Would have loved to see Sansa and Arya make case to Jon that for sake of their family he had to take the IT. Instead we get Gendry asking Arya to marry him. Great.

I guess GRRM is insisting some good scenes are left for him to write.

But, by the same token, if Dany gave the North independence, they'd be her allies in every way except that they were duty-bound to do so b/c she ruled them.  No one would forget the way she and her armies and dragons came through for them vs the NK, and, moreover, Jon would be King in the North, therefore insuring that they would always have her back.  I actually think the Northern Lords would be more inclined to rally for her if she'd given them their freedom.  She would literally be breaking the chains that she'd claimed she wanted to do, so many years ago. 

But, I agree on the lack of reaction scenes to Sansa & Arya finding out that Jon is the heir and their cousin, not their brother.  Those would have been fantastic.  I think they could have shelved some of the overlong feast/reveling scenes for that. 

[ulkis]

15 hours ago, millennium said:

I think Jon didn't say goodbye to Ghost because it wasn't goodbye.   I expect Jon Snow will survive whatever happens, and in the final scene he'll leave everything behind to go live north of the Wall where Ghost will be waiting. 

I think so too. I'll be very surprised if he ends up on the iron throne, and I think he would hate it and it would be a terrible ending for him. I think there was a reason his first words about King's Landing were basically, "this place sucks." Jon is more a soldier than a polition. (Like Robert, which maybe what Varys was thinking of when he said Dany would control him.)

Edited May 6, 2019 by ulkis

[millennium]

11 minutes ago, steelyis said:

What Cersei doesn't understand yet is that she's only seen the restrained side of Dany. The side that put her quest for the crown on hold and asked for a truce . The side that seemingly cares about collateral damage. Cersei believes Dany doesn't have the stomach to fight Cersei on Cersei's level. And she is wrong.

Except Dany is deeply disadvantaged.  Her winning hand has always consisted of three dragons; now she has just one and as things stand she can't fly it anywhere near King's Landing without it being killed.   AFAIC, Cersei has taken the dragons off the table -- unless Dany is willing to sacrifice Drogon in a kamikaze blaze of glory.

So unrestrained or not, Dany is not quite the threat she used to be. 

[Scaeva]

8 minutes ago, lvbalgurl said:

But, by the same token, if Dany gave the North independence, they'd be her allies in every way except that they were duty-bound to do so b/c she ruled them.  No one would forget the way she and her armies and dragons came through for them vs the NK, and, moreover, Jon would be King in the North, therefore insuring that they would always have her back.  I actually think the Northern Lords would be more inclined to rally for her if she'd given them their freedom.  She would literally be breaking the chains that she'd claimed she wanted to do, so many years ago. 

But, I agree on the lack of reaction scenes to Sansa & Arya finding out that Jon is the heir and their cousin, not their brother.  Those would have been fantastic.  I think they could have shelved some of the overlong feast/reveling scenes for that. 

The main issue with making the north independent is that while Jon could be trusted to keep the peace with Westeros, would his sons or grandsons? His descendants would have claims to the Iron Throne every bit as strong as Jon's, based on their descent from Rhaegar, and there is no guarantee they'd be motivated by a sense of honor or familial love for their relative on that other throne.

It could also encourage other lords and ladies of Great Houses to push their own claims for separate kingdoms. Rather than granting Westeros a long respite from war it may create many more opportunities for internal strife.

I'd totally be cool with the Seven Kingdoms fracturing in the series' ending, but can sort of side with Daenerys not having any of this independent north business. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Scaeva

[Glade]

I was thinking last week--don't leave Winterfell without designing some armor for the dragons!  With all those fallen soldiers, there had to be enough spare armour not to mention pieces of dragonglass, etc. to construct something, since they all knew Cersei was developing those weapons.  Granted this was an unexpected act of brutality at Dragonstone, but… it's horrifying that such beautiful creatures could go extinct again because of this stupid war. Either leave Drogon at home or build them impenetrable armor!  I need a happy ending for the dragons...new hatchlings, even if all the human characters are dead.   

And Ghost…Jon or someone could at least have pet him.  I'd love it if Sansa or Bran adopted him instead, he's been with Jon for so much longer then Nymeria was with Arya, it's wrong.  Was he so ripped up because Bran had warged into him?  I guess we'll never know now, there's no more backstory on the Night King either.  Sigh…

It was so heartbreaking seeing Jamie leave Brienne, who deserves so much better, and he's choosing death and his abusive family over her.  I really believed for a moment that Cersie would rain arrows down on Tyrion, who of course was wrong, she didn't really love her children, she drove Tommen to suicide and murdered countless innocents with her petty war against the Tyrells, she not going to stop now.  Missandei's death was also swift and horrifying.  Is Yara herself going to show up at the battle next week?  I missed her (and for a breif second thought she had been captured again and that was going to be her up on the castle wall.)

I was so happy for Gendry when Dany was so generous.  But I hope that Arya survives the completion of her hitlist, even though it won't be with him. Bronn was really cruel and  obnoxious and now I'm rooting his swift death being played off as comic relief.

[watchTV]

4 hours ago, Leroux said:

What is perplexing about this rightful heir to the IT to me is that not for one second did it cross Daenerys mind the idea of asking Jon to rule with her, to make him understand that they will be stronger together as co-rulers. A marriage of equals would be the best but that is obviously not what she wants, she wants him to not ever say a word and act just like her consort. 

Why? 

Why she is so hell-bent on being the only ruler? Jon definitely will let her do all the ruling and only make her consider her most drastic decisions. I am sure she loves him and wants to marry him but she doesn't want to share power with him? 

She should have never asked him to keep his identity a secret just so she can claim the throne alone. That was awfully selfish. 

Didn't Jon pull back when they were kissing because he realized this was his aunt? He may be half Targaryen but he isn't used to this like Dany is. So I don't think they'd be getting married.

[Delete]

Unbelievable moment for me was the meeting at the end. Cersei had a perfect moment to take out the remaining dragon, Dany, and her brother in swift movement, but decides to behead Missandei, who was a minor character in this game of thrones. 

Fuck Jaime. Unless he's going back to do the fucking honors, and stab his sister and watch that smug smile become her perma death mask.  Brienne left sobbing' broke my heart. It similar to how I feel after a Tinder date ghosts me after a few weeks of dating. 

But first Jaime, get Urine Greyjoy. I hate that crazy-eyed cockknuckle. 

Dany's change in character pisses me off. It doesn't fit somehow. She was never the crazy one in the Targaryen family. 

Ghost!  Farewell furry friend. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Barbara Please

[lvbalgurl]

7 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

The main issue with making the north independent is that while Jon could be trusted to keep the peace with Westeros, would his sons or grandsons? His descendants would have claims to the Iron Throne every bit as strong as Jon's, based on their descent from Rhaegar, and there is no guarantee they'd be motivated by a sense of honor or familial love for their relative on that other throne.

It could also encourage other lords and ladies of Great Houses to push their own claims for separate kingdoms. Rather than granting Westeros a long respite from war it may create many more opportunities for internal strife.

I'd totally be cool with the Seven Kingdoms fracturing in the series' ending, but can sort of side with Daenerys not having any of this independent north business. 

If Dany is a good and fair ruler of the Six Kingdoms, and maintains a good relationship with the North, and her sons/daughters and grandchildren do the same, I see no reason why an alliance wouldn't continue throughout the Stark lineage.

Truthfully, any Kingdom at any time could revolt, whether Dany maintains the Seven Kingdoms or not.  I see a greater possibility of revolt if Dany forces the North to bend the knee when they are craving their independence than not.  Since she is down to one dragon, I honestly think it's in her best interest to release them, garner their goodwill, and treat them as independent allies, rather than forcing them to be part of her Kingdom.

[Cheezwiz]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

If Jaimie just goes back to being Cerseis boy toy, than...what has even been the point? 

I'm convinced Jaime headed South on a suicide mission to kill Cersei, not to rejoin her. He is tormented by self-hatred at this point, and this is going to be his attempt at atonement. I think he might have wanted poor Brienne to believe he was callously discarding her so that she wouldn't try to follow him and put herself in danger. I think she might pursue him. Clearly he's toast, and I think his wish of "dying in the arms of a woman he loves" will come true. He will die trying to kill Cersei, or trying to protect Brienne.

Am I just dim, or did I miss something? Why didn't Dany just go ahead and Dracarys the shit out of Euron's little ambush fleet? I was yelling at my screen at that point.  RIP Rhaegal. Also good point made by posters above - who tipped him off as to when they'd arrive at Dragonstone?

Poor Greyworm. Hope he gets to have a hand in Cersei's demise, but man, that waitlist is awfully long!

And Dear Show: couldn't someone have given poor Ghost a bath? Couldn't he have been given at least a scratch behind the ears or a tummy rub from Jon, before he was "sent away to a farm in the country up North". All we saw was a shot of him peeking around some soldiers and whimpering sadly. Also yelling at my screen at that scene. Dammit Jon! I know CGI is expensive, but some final words would have been nice! 

Tormund: The Duckie of the North (80's reference for you young'uns).

I'm honestly bored with the whole Jon/Dany/claim to the throne conundrum. It's easily solved, and any obstacles are just plot contrivances at this point.

Varys: will likely be toast soon, given his shift in loyalty away from Dany. But for now he's found a new outfit he can tuck his arms into!

Tyrion: I don't know that he ACTUALLY believes his sister is not a monster anymore. I think he was just saying that in a final attempt to mess with her head. It didn't work. RIP Missandei, your final words were badass!

[watchTV]

4 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Did anyone else's breath catch when Arya said she had no intentions of returning to Winterfell? Not that I'm predicting she'll die, but damm, she's not going to see her family again? 

Wouldn't you think Sansa's time with Littlefinger would've made her smarter? Lord Baelish was the master of sitting on information until he could best use it to his advantage. Sansa blabbing Jon's secret two seconds after he told her was not very prudent. Especially when it was clear the Dragon Queen's sanity was hanging by a thread. 

My prediction is on Varys selling Dany out. There's no way Euron just happened upon her fleet. He was definitely tipped off. 

Arya and the Hound, back on the road again? I'm here for it. 

I'm heartbroken for Greyworm. 

I think Sansa felt it was the right time to reveal Jon was heir to the throne because Dany was rushing into another battle when her army needed to recuperate. And if someone in a leadership position with lives in their hands has their sanity hanging by a thread then they shouldn't be making these important decisions.

4 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

This isn't out of character for Dany, in the past when she wanted to burn the city she had someone to hold her back and speak reason.  She also fed a man to her Dragons in the past. Forgot which season when she was in Mereen or one of those cities where her plan was to burn it down. Now she has suffered some unbearable losses back to back, she is angry. Maybe if she had time to get over her anger but she is totally torching KL.

Also Cersei is a ******, she invited all those innocents in the keep as protection.

I haven't read the books but since D&D have an idea how it all ends (from what I heard) I assume the characters will end in the same place but have a different journey to get there.  I don't think Dany is going mad Queen, she is angry, hurt and upset. This is war and she is using things at her disposal as anyone would. Her father was burning people for fun is what I understand.

Yeah, people are forgetting that Dany just suffered great loss and she feels the northerners give her no consideration for what she's sacrificed.