S08.E03: The Long Night

[Constantinople]

Tormund doesn't know how close he came to Arya killing him

Quote

You said I'd shut many eyes forever. You were right about that too - Arya
Brown eyes green eyes and blue eyes - Melisandre

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I've always had blue eyes! - Tormund two episodes ago

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Agreed with article.  The use of cavalry as opening attack against unknown / unseen enemy was dumb.  They should have learned from Stannis (vs wildlings in front of the wall) or Littlefinger (Kingths of Vale) on how to use cavalry to cut / attack from the side/flank.

Also, who the heck put trebuchets at the front of the line???  Trebuchets have range and area of attack (ie can kill a lot per shot), so it should have been put further back, like behind Unsullied lines.

The enemy's strength was number.  Jon, Dany, etc should have used their tools to kill as many ice zombies possible before they were in range to engage the infantry units

Just proof that whoever in charge were not smart tacticians

Interesting take although the article takes the position that the strategy of the Living wasn’t too bad. Certainly some of what they did made no sense and mistakes were made. The trebuchets were useless but they looked cool on TV. I’m sure that’s why the show runners included them. 

Both sides made mistakes and neither had experience fighting a battle of this scale. Ultimately, the Dead lost because their leader had no knowledge of the secret weapon; A Girl with a Valyrian steel dagger. 

[kieyra]

2 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

How does one smile in a situation like that? I'm not sure if I was one of the crypt folks, that a smile from Sansa would necessarily reassure me and it wouldn't feel genuine - I'd still be scared shitless, plus I wouldn't believe her anyway if she started throwing out platitudes, and really it would seem kind of inappropriate and pointless, with all that's going on out there. 

Hey gurl. Why don’t u smile more?

[Auntie Anxiety]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

Regarding her leadership at Winterfell, I certainly don't need to see a montage of her balancing books and supervising food deliveries, but it would have been nice to get a line or two about what she's accomplished.

In the first episode of the season, I remember Sansa talking to her assistants about making sure there was enough food for everyone, even going so far as to say that they hadn’t counted on so many Unsullied and Dothraki soldiers. 

[Oscirus]

It really is weird how little valaryian swords came into play. Such a big deal was made about them and since his generals were never deployed, it made nary a difference in the outcome.

[Growsonwalls]

Ok I'm a Sansa fan and defender in general. My biggest issue with her wasn't that she didn't fight. If she's not trained it's better that she not fight. My issue was that she didn't show much concern/gratitude that I could see to the people who were out there fighting. These people included Jaime (who is fighting with one hand), Arya (her little sister), Lyanna (an 11 year old), Jon (the man she grew up with as her brother), Brienne (the woman who'd sworn eternal loyalty to her and her mother), and Theon (who is defending her brother Bran AND missing a few appendages himself). She doesn't have to like Dany. Dany for all her warmth with certain people (Jorah, Jon, the Unsullied, the Dothraki) isn't much of a girl-bonding type person either. But there were people that Sansa loved up there fighting so hard and she just didn't express any concern for them and that bothered me.

[Auntie Anxiety]

I rewatched the episode on my iPad last night. It was much clearer and easier to see what was going on, partly because I knew what to look for, partly because the screen is smaller so I had a more focused view, and partly because my iPad gives me a sharper picture. If you thought the episode was too darkly filmed and have an iPad, I’d check it out.

In Episode 2, when they were standing around in the war room looking at the game board, someone asked if the Night King would be vanquished by dragon fire. No one knew. Apparently, he couldn’t be.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

No, Im saying that Stannis had more men than the 50 people from Bear island, the 2000 wildlings, and what was left of Winterfell people.  

As she said 'How am I supposed to feed Dothraki, unsullied, and 2 dragons?' One would assume that she did not prepare for them even though she knew it was possible they would come when Jon left to meet Danerys. Since its a 2 month journey (according to show) from KL to Winterfell, I likely took him about that time to get to dragonstone, then the weeks he was there before traveling back to Eastwatch to get a WW, then bend the knee, then travel to KL, then back to Winterfell.  One could say she had at least 6 months to prepare for them......and yet didn't.

and yet they all were well fed enough to not be sick, and fought with great energy. She managed it, apparently.

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

and yet they all were well fed enough to not be sick, and fought with great energy. She managed it, apparently.

Or Dany made sure to bring food enough to take care of her own people, at the very least enough for them while they were in transit....... we will never know....Not to mention that they were there for like....2 weeks before the battle...so likely anything Sansa did or didn't do to prepare for them, wouldn't have mattered enough for them to get sick

Edited May 1, 2019 by LadyChaos

[catrice2]

I could care less about Sansa really.  I get that not everyone could survive and that they have had big deaths before.  I also get that Lyanna was an obvious choice because she did not really have a connection to any other story, or person and we knew Jorah was going to die every since he overcame Grayscale, and every since they decided Jon and Dany would have a relationship. 

What I don't get is that they are always talking about doing the unexpected (i.e., Jon not being the one to kill the Night King) but then doing the expected....like killing Jorah, or putting Jon and Dany together.  Why not surprise us and let the fan favorite stay around?  I would have rather they gave Lyanna her one scene instead of making her a boss and then killing her.  In fact Dany, who could be in the crypt waiting for men to fight for her was out there risking her life, Brienne risking hers, Arya risking hers, all the women on the show were being brave, and you noticed a lot of the men were whining. 

I am also mad because part of the problem is that almost everyone went into the battle already defeated. Greyworm was the only one talking about the future.  Tormund (sp) should have died, he would have been a good one instead of Lyanna, all he did in Ep 2 was talk about how everyone was going to die. Sam whining and shaking, Clegane staying on the sideline and needed a pep talk to get back in the fight.  Greyworm looking around confused. Podrick was another one that could have gone instead. 

I agree with upthread, why did the Red Witch die? was it foretold?  I needed her to revive at least Jorah. 

I'm still bitter!!

[MrWhyt]

6 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

I agree with upthread, why did the Red Witch die? was it foretold?  I needed her to revive at least Jorah.

she fulfilled her purpose

[MissLucas]

12 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

I agree with upthread, why did the Red Witch die? was it foretold? 

Yes, she told Varys she would return to Westeros one last time and die. I guess she wanted to make sure at least one of her prophecies was correct.

Edited May 1, 2019 by MissLucas

[Potanical Pardon]

Oysters, Clams and Cockles!!!!

[Law Mom]

I like Missandei, I really do, but clearly her boss neglected to tell her that Sansa offered a lovely and sincere apology for not immediately thanking Dany and welcoming her to Winterfell, which Dany graciously accepted. Had Missandei known, she probably would not have made that comment. A lot of people here also seem to forget that as well.

And one other thing. Yes, many of these women have been raped and that leaves psychological scars. But as far as we know, Sansa is the only one who was left with presumably permanent chronic pain as a result of her repeated assaults. Think about that for a second. What would that be like, to never be able to forget what happened to you for a single second? I cut her a lot of slack for that.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

Or Dany made sure to bring food enough to take care of her own people, at the very least enough for them while they were in transit....... we will never know....Not to mention that they were there for like....2 weeks before the battle...so likely anything Sansa did or didn't do to prepare for them, wouldn't have mattered enough for them to get sick

All I can go by is what I saw, which was a well provisioned, very large army, and we really don't know how much time lapsed between Dothrali and Unsullied arriving, and the battle.

[Advance35]

Quote

I like Missandei, I really do, but clearly her boss neglected to tell her that Sansa offered a lovely and sincere apology for not immediately thanking Dany and welcoming her to Winterfell, which Dany graciously accepted. Had Missandei known, she probably would not have made that comment. A lot of people here also seem to forget that as well.

And one other thing. Yes, many of these women have been raped and that leaves psychological scars. But as far as we know, Sansa is the only one who was left with presumably permanent chronic pain as a result of her repeated assaults. Think about that for a second. What would that be like, to never be able to forget what happened to you for a single second? I cut her a lot of slack for that.

Haven't you heard?  Sansa is one of the most evil women to ever walk the land of Westeros.  Her hearts as cold and dark as the recently vanquished Night King.  She wants power and influence and isn't waving pom poms when those things are given to others.

I'm beginning to question whether Catelyn Stark was really her mother.  I suspect she may have been born of a Jackal or in a lake of fire. s/

Edited May 1, 2019 by Advance35

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Re: what Sansa should have done in the crypt:

I think it would have been possible for her to say something inspiring. 

Maybe something about how, if the worst happens, it will fall on them to recreate civilization and keep the traditions of the North alive, so they need to stay strong and remember who they are. And maybe something about how many times before the Northerners had beaten the odds, and they can do it again.

But that would be absurd and everyone knew it. If the worst happened nothing would fall on them at all because they would be dead. They wouldn't be keeping anything alive or staying strong.  The fact that Sansa is there at all is an admission that things are not going well. Of course everyone's hoping they'll beat the odds again, but nobody's getting their hopes up too much. It would be like sitting with someone on their deathbed telling them to think positive.

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Ok I'm a Sansa fan and defender in general. My biggest issue with her wasn't that she didn't fight. If she's not trained it's better that she not fight. My issue was that she didn't show much concern/gratitude that I could see to the people who were out there fighting. These people included Jaime (who is fighting with one hand), Arya (her little sister), Lyanna (an 11 year old), Jon (the man she grew up with as her brother), Brienne (the woman who'd sworn eternal loyalty to her and her mother), and Theon (who is defending her brother Bran AND missing a few appendages himself). She doesn't have to like Dany. Dany for all her warmth with certain people (Jorah, Jon, the Unsullied, the Dothraki) isn't much of a girl-bonding type person either. But there were people that Sansa loved up there fighting so hard and she just didn't express any concern for them and that bothered me.

I think this was a situation where everyone was beyond expressing concern for individual people. Everyone was just sitting there in dread for everyone they knew and themselves and their country. There wasn't really any point where it would make sense to talk about concern for any particular person. I think it would have been pretty annoying for Sansa to be handwringing about individual characters, imagining situations for them to worry about. Or just "I hope Arya isn't a zombie now. I hope Theon isn't a zombie now. I hope Jon isn't a zombie now... etc."

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

Im honestly surprised that outside of the Little Bear (may she rest in peace) no one has brought into question where Sansa's loyalties lie.  I mean all those people stressing about Danerys and Tyrion....no one mentions that Sansa used to be married to Tyrion, and then married a usurper in the North, Bolton.....

I doubt anybody would have any reason to think that Sansa had any loyalty to either of them just because she was married to them.  I don't think they'd imagine her marrying either of them out of personal desire.

All I really wanted from Sansa in this ep was that she stay out of the way and that's how I thought she was mostly portrayed. So when I imagine scenarios that highlight her doing something proactive like cheering people up or worrying about people or really anything like that it feels intrusive. I liked her running Winterfell in the run up to the battle and being a figurehead until a figurehead would get in the way and went to the crypt to wait it out.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

It really is weird how little valaryian swords came into play. Such a big deal was made about them and since his generals were never deployed, it made nary a difference in the outcome.

Valryian steel made all the difference - the dagger Arya used to kill the NK was valryian steel.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Clanstarling

[Absurda]

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Im honestly surprised that outside of the Little Bear (may she rest in peace) no one has brought into question where Sansa's loyalties lie.  I mean all those people stressing about Danerys and Tyrion....no one mentions that Sansa used to be married to Tyrion, and then married a usurper in the North, Bolton.....

Well, seeing as how she was one of the leaders of the revolt against Bolton, and brought brought in the riders of the Vale, the key players in his defeat, I'd say her loyalty to him (or lack thereof) is pretty clear.  And abandoning Tyrion to face charges of regicide on his own, and actually fleeing with another man, kinda shows a lack of loyalty to him as well.  Tho both seem willing to let bygones be bygones.  Now, if Littlefinger were still around there might be problems, but she and Arya took care of that.

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, Absurda said:

Well, seeing as how she was one of the leaders of the revolt against Bolton, and brought brought in the riders of the Vale, the key players in his defeat, I'd say her loyalty to him (or lack thereof) is pretty clear.  And abandoning Tyrion to face charges of regicide on his own, and actually fleeing with another man, kinda shows a lack of loyalty to him as well.  Tho both seem willing to let bygones be bygones.  Now, if Littlefinger were still around there might be problems, but she and Arya took care of that.

Im not saying it would justified.....Im just saying Im surprised.

[Oscirus]

12 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Valryian steel made all the difference - the dagger Arya used to kill the NK was valryian steel.

Yea but the swords themselves played no role. Other than Jon going after the Night King, the other swords didn't play any role, could've been dragon glass swords, would've been the same difference

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

It really is weird how little valaryian swords came into play. Such a big deal was made about them and since his generals were never deployed, it made nary a difference in the outcome.

The Night King's known since Hardhome that Valyrian steel can kill his generals, and Jon got a second one in s7, so it makes sense he'd be wary now and let his meatpuppet soldiers do all the real work. Arya only managed a kill with her Valyrian knife because she took him by surprise. There were only 4 Valyrian swords anyway, and it's not like Jaime and Brienne or Jon got them just for this, they already had them. Sam knew about Jon killing the WW when he took Heartsbane, but I also think he might have done so anyway as a silent fuck you to his father. Valyrian steel was never going to be more valuable than dragonglass because both kill WWs, it's just that some people already had Valyrian weapons while dragonglass weapons would have to be specially made. Mining and forging the dragonglass was the big deal and it did make a difference since that's what most everyone else was fighting with. 

[pezgirl7]

‘Game of Thrones’ cinematographer says the Battle of Winterfell looked so dark on purpose...

Quote

What the cinematography was trying to achieve, Wagner said, was to present a disorienting reaction of what a real-life battle is like. “We tried to give the viewers and fans a cool episode to watch,” he said in the interview.

https://news.yahoo.com/game-thrones-cinematographer-says-battle-182513754.html

[LadyChaos]

5 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

‘Game of Thrones’ cinematographer says the Battle of Winterfell looked so dark on purpose...

https://news.yahoo.com/game-thrones-cinematographer-says-battle-182513754.html

So your saying .....they wanted us to not see anything...cool...cool.....

maybe they thought we would be so happy to see whats happening in the future, we wouldn't complain.

Edited May 1, 2019 by LadyChaos

[Growsonwalls]

One thing that annoyed me about the darkness was that they choreographed who was going to die so much because all of a sudden that person got bathed in the Heavenly Aurora Glow light. I knew Jorah and Theon were goners when they got that glow light on their face. 

[Lady S.]

I wasn't that surprised about main characters having plot armor, despite all the build-up last week, because that's the way it's always been with battles on this show. (I think the only main characters to die in big battle eps were Ygritte and Ramsay. 3 main characters in 1 ep is Red Wedding-level and all of these characters were more important than Talisa.) But I am pleasantly surprised that my boy Pod had plot armor too. It's only weird that they didn't include any doomed characters in the fireside chat last ep, so that Tyrion actually was 100% right in thinking they'd live. 

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

The article clearly states that there was no likely  way to employ cavalry usefully against an army immune to panic, supported by air power which could easily destroy cavalry in the open, especially since your air power is vulnerable to antiaircraft weapons that the enemy has. Antiaircraft weapons that you do not possess.

I thought the observation that the NK's forces, not needing any food or water, was ideally suited to lay siege, was interesting. Perhaps the NK had some unexplained urgency to destroy Bran, or was just overly confident.

I was not suggesting to use cavalry to cause panic / reduce moral.  Cavalry can also efficiently attack from side / flank to cause damage.  The hoard of ice zombies are forward focused, attacking them from the side would have most likely caused significant damage without much retaliation.  So what if some of the cavalry got roasted by dragon fire from above.  That would have been much preferable than SACRIFICING the whole Dothraki riders to attack unknown enemy from the freakin front where the enemies are strongest

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, MrWhyt said:

she fulfilled her purpose

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Yes, she told Varys she would return to Westeros one last time and die. I guess she wanted to make sure at least one of her prophecies was correct.

Yes, and she confessed to Varys on Dragonstone last season that she had to leave because she'd made "terrible mistakes", meaning her belief in Stannis, and especially burning Shireen only to learn later that Stannis wasn't Azor Ahai. I think that she was planning to die as soon as she fulfilled the Lord of Light's purpose. 

[DarkRaichu]

3 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Interesting take although the article takes the position that the strategy of the Living wasn’t too bad. Certainly some of what they did made no sense and mistakes were made. The trebuchets were useless but they looked cool on TV. I’m sure that’s why the show runners included them. 

Both sides made mistakes and neither had experience fighting a battle of this scale. Ultimately, the Dead lost because their leader had no knowledge of the secret weapon; A Girl with a Valyrian steel dagger. 

But that is not necessarily battle tactics though.  NK lost because lack of intel and badass fighting skills.  As far as battle, NK side used the sheer numbers much more effectively to thwart any possible strategy the living side had thrown at them.

Also, I am not saying trebuchets were bad idea, I am saying they should have been placed further back so they would not be as easily reached & destroyed by the ice zombies.  It would have been cool to see those fiery stones from trebuchets actually crush some wights

Edited May 1, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Bannon]

23 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I was not suggesting to use cavalry to cause panic / reduce moral.  Cavalry can also efficiently attack from side / flank to cause damage.  The hoard of ice zombies are forward focused, attacking them from the side would have most likely caused significant damage without much retaliation.  So what if some of the cavalry got roasted by dragon fire from above.  That would have been much preferable than SACRIFICING the whole Dothraki riders to attack unknown enemy from the freakin front where the enemies are strongest

From the article.....

"The success of a cavalry attack against infantry requires either flanking (hitting a formation on its side while some other group “fixes” its front) or a shocking frontal assault that disrupts the formation. Both of these depend more on psychological than on physical factors. Fear of being attacked from two sides induces infantry to break and flee, just as fear of being overrun causes infantry to throw down their weapons and run. In either case, cavalry runs free and kills until the infantry can pull itself back together. But crucially, success depends on the ability of the cavalry to induce panic."

.....meaning infantry completely immune to panic is a terrible objective for cavalry, no matter where the infantry hits it.

In regard to infantry, the article concludes....

".....

The Dothraki likely did not envision their attack as a suicide charge, but they had limited tools with which to judge the effectiveness of Team Dead.

None of this makes the cavalry charge a good idea. But the mistake was made in the days before the Battle of Winterfell, not in the minutes before the charge. The best employment of the Dothraki would have come as long range scouts and skirmishers in the days before the battle. Even then, however, their utility was limited; cavalry often succeeds by disrupting supply lines and ambushing foraging parties, and Team Dead needed neither of these. And in any case, unless Team Alive spared a dragon for air support, any accumulation of Dothraki would have been vulnerable to Viserion. If the Dothraki had not charged, they would have found themselves pinned against the infantry, their mobility lost. If they had moved right or left in search of Team Dead’s flanks, they would have run the risk of being flanked themselves (Team Dead also had cavalry, and its infantry was fast and fearless) or destroyed by Viserion and the Night King.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Bannon

[Coxfires]

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I wasn't that surprised about main characters having plot armor, despite all the build-up last week, because that's the way it's always been with battles on this show. (I think the only main characters to die in big battle eps were Ygritte and Ramsay. 3 main characters in 1 ep is Red Wedding-level and all of these characters were more important than Talisa.) But I am pleasantly surprised that my boy Pod had plot armor too. It's only weird that they didn't include any doomed characters in the fireside chat last ep, so that Tyrion actually was 100% right in thinking they'd live. 

Yep, I can't remember and major dying in battle beyond those 2. Ned was beheaded, Cat and Robb were assassinated during a feast, Joeff poisoned, Oberyn die on 1vs1, Tywin died taking a dump...

I guess here the ennemy was so much larger in terms of numbers plus their very nature that made them relentless that we were expecting a greater death toll. Although this being ep3 only I wouldn't take my guard down, there are still plenty opportunities for anyone To die, even stupidly like tripping in the stairs 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Coxfires

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

.....meaning infantry completely immune to panic is a terrible objective for cavalry, no matter where the infantry hits it.

Fine, you win.  Sending the Dothrakis to attack head on was a much better strategy 😛

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Fine, you win.  Sending the Dothrakis to attack head on was a much better strategy 😛

The point is, as the article clearly states, there is no good strategy for using Dothraki cavalry against such an infantry, especially at night. Now if somebody wants to criticize the command for not having the Dothraki dismount, and fight as regular infantry, fine, I guess, if you want to discount that soldiers trained to fight on horses might be really bad as an ad hoc infantry. Sometimes the situation just sucks, and command decisions are of limited impact.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Yea but the swords themselves played no role. Other than Jon going after the Night King, the other swords didn't play any role, could've been dragon glass swords, would've been the same difference

Methinks the long valyrian steel sword from Sam made Jorah look more badass and his sacrifice more heroic.  His last fighting scene would not have looked as epic had he used a dragonglass sword just like the one Dany was using.. 🙂

[Lokiberry]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Sansa Lanister-Bolton referring to Daenrys as "the Dragon Queen" was somewhat derogatory and disrespectful. 

"Our Queen" or at least "the Queen" would be more appropriate, though I prefer, Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Protector of the Realm, Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, the Unburnt, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons.

Yeah, no. It's not Sansa's job to grovel over Dany's 1001 vanity names. She's behaved correctly, if not exactly warmly, to the (Oops, Not Really!) Rightful Heir To The Iron Throne since she got there. Sansa referred to her as the Dragon Queen in a conversation to her own ex-husband in her own crypt. If Dany can't take a rebuke as mild as that then she's going to make just as bad a ruler as her daddy. 

Oh wait, she's not the Rightful Heir to the throne. That would be Jon. Maybe he'll renounce his superior claim in exchange for Northern independence. 

Quote

Edited May 1, 2019 by Lokiberry

[DarkRaichu]

11 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The point is, as the article clearly states, there is no good strategy for using Dothraki cavalry against such an infantry, especially at night. Now if somebody wants to criticize the command for not having the Dothraki dismount, and fight as regular infantry, fine, I guess, if you want to discount that soldiers trained to fight on horses might be really bad as an ad hoc infantry. Sometimes the situation just sucks, and command decisions are of limited impact.

There is a difference between a less effective strategy and completely bad one.  I merely pointed out the cavalry could have been used to attack the flank with minimal damage to the cavalry (perhaps do hit and run).  Was that the best strategy? No.  But much much better than sending them head on to die.

PS. And I never said anything about dismounting them

Edited May 1, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Lady S.]

15 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Yes, and she confessed to Varys on Dragonstone last season that she had to leave because she'd made "terrible mistakes", meaning her belief in Stannis, and especially burning Shireen only to learn later that Stannis wasn't Azor Ahai. I think that she was planning to die as soon as she fulfilled the Lord of Light's purpose. 

And she's just very, very old and probably pretty tired. When Davos confronted her about Shireen she said she'd been ready to die for a long time but they still needed her help with the Night King.

Anyway, so we've already noted that Bran gave the knife to Arya and it was originally meant to kill him, but there's also the element of Catelyn fighting the cutthroat to defend Bran and now Arya using the knife to defend Bran. (Yes, ultimately Summer had to save both Bran and Cat, but he wasn't there right away, and Bran would have been killed right away if his mother wasn't with him.) And it's a third time's the charm for Arya, as she'd been present at Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding, unable to do anything to save either of her parents or her eldest brother, but now she made all the difference when her family was under its most dire threat.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 hours ago, catrice2 said:

So in other words Jon was not being heroic facing down the dragon because he was not going to be able to burn him? I guess he could have trampled him or swatted him...

Jon's hand was burned by the lantern he threw at the wight to save Lord Commander Mormont, so he is apparently not immune to fire, like Daenerys.

Besides that, we don't know what Viserion's blue ice fire would do to Daenerys.  She might not be immune to it the way she is to regular fire.

[Snowball II]

8 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Deciding to fight at the very end wins no points with me. 

Why?

This further backs up my point that Sansa cannot win.  If she doesn't fight, she's weak and useless.  If she does fight, it's too little, too late. 

I'm just not sure what people want, from her.  I'm really, genuinely puzzled, at this point. 😕

Edited May 1, 2019 by Fiver

[DarkRaichu]

4 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

No, Im saying that Stannis had more men than the 50 people from Bear island, the 2000 wildlings, and what was left of Winterfell people.  

As she said 'How am I supposed to feed Dothraki, unsullied, and 2 dragons?' One would assume that she did not prepare for them even though she knew it was possible they would come when Jon left to meet Danerys. Since its a 2 month journey (according to show) from KL to Winterfell, I likely took him about that time to get to dragonstone, then the weeks he was there before traveling back to Eastwatch to get a WW, then bend the knee, then travel to KL, then back to Winterfell.  One could say she had at least 6 months to prepare for them......and yet didn't.

Ah but you forgot the time compression magic the showrunners imposed on the show in season 7.  By that magic, it only took at most a week to move Dany's forces from near KL to Winterfell 😄 

This is just leftover hate from season 7.  Although I am afraid it will be repeated in 8x04 when Dany & co arrive at KL merely 5 days after long night battle at Winterfell 😛 

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

There is a difference between a less effective strategy and completely bad one.  I merely pointed out the cavalry could have been used to attack the flank with minimal damage to the cavalry (perhaps do hit and run).  Was that the best strategy? No.  But much much better than sending them head on to die.

PS. And I never said anything about dismounting them

Hey, you were the one that cited the article in Slate. The author disagrees with you that there was any "much better" tactic to use with Dothraki calvary.

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jon's hand was burned by the lantern he threw at the wight to save Lord Commander Mormont, so he is apparently not immune to fire, like Daenerys.

Besides that, we don't know what Viserion's blue ice fire would do to Daenerys.  She might not be immune to it the way she is to regular fire.

One of my disappointment with 8x03.  The showrunners knew Jon was not going to kill NK, might as well showed what would happen when the blue flame hit a (half) Targ

[GraceK]

Someone gets it

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2019/04/30/daenerys-had-every-reason-to-betray-the-starks-in-game-of-thrones-she-didnt-she-wont/#719a2dad6904

[merrick715]

5 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

My biggest issue with her wasn't that she didn't fight. If she's not trained it's better that she not fight. My issue was that she didn't show much concern/gratitude that I could see to the people who were out there fighting.

When was she supposed to be doing this? We see here standing next to Arya, when they Dothraki are wiped out, and then Arya and tells her to hide in crypts. The only people Sansa interacts with are Arya, Tyrion, and Missandei. 

[Giselle]

On 4/29/2019 at 7:17 PM, Kate47 said:

I feel like, had they given Sansa a training scene, and had she managed to retain the knowledge in her first battle against the dead in the crypt, and had she managed to kill one or two dead Starks....

People would be crying out that she killed them too easily, that she's not a fighter, that she's a Sue.

It's literally a no win situation for her in the eyes of a lot of commenters, because Sansa is apparently terrible no matter what she does. 

She still has to pay for the sins of her youth. Season 1 Episode 1 she lied & sold out her family because she was smitten with Joffery.

Only right she continues to pay till her dying day.

[Giselle]

I thought this was interesting.

"Game of Thrones’ Battle of Winterfell: 2 military experts explain Jon and Dany’s sloppy plan

It wasn’t as bad as you think. It was worse."

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military

[merrick715]

4 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Haven't you heard?  Sansa is one of the most evil women to ever walk the land of Westeros.  Her hearts as cold and dark as the recently vanquished Night King.  She wants power and influence and isn't waving pom poms when those things are given to others.

I'm beginning to question whether Catelyn Stark was really her mother.  I suspect she may have been born of a Jackal or in a lake of fire. s/

See, this is where I disagree. Sansa is the product of the affair that Cat had with the Night King. Only someone as horrid as Cat, and as cold, and arrogant as the Night King, could ever create someone, as evil as Sansa.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Re: Sansa's administrative skills/plans for food, from S8.E1:

Sansa: May I ask, how are we meant to feed the greatest army the world has ever seen? While I ensured our stores would last through winter, I didn't account for Dothraki, Unsullied, and two full-grown dragons.

[Macbeth]

6 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

One of my disappointment with 8x03.  The showrunners knew Jon was not going to kill NK, might as well showed what would happen when the blue flame hit a (half) Targ

I wanted to see that too!!  What would happen if Viserion blew ice fire at Jon. 

It's clear that cold can't kill Jon - He's the ice in "Fire and Ice".  So when Viserion was about to engulf  Jon in ice flames - I was "Let her rip. It may not go the way you think it will". 

[BooBear]

4 hours ago, Giselle said:

I thought this was interesting.

"Game of Thrones’ Battle of Winterfell: 2 military experts explain Jon and Dany’s sloppy plan

It wasn’t as bad as you think. It was worse."

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military

I don't need that story to see that, but yes, it was a major disaster. Kind of ruined the episode for me because you're like, really? On the behind the scenes they kept talking about how they didn't want the plan to work for the heroes. There is a difference between the plan not working and the plan being poor in the first place. It was the one sour point in the episode for me.