S08.E03: The Long Night

[Last Time Lord]

6 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I hate how hard I laughed at this. 

[LadyChaos]

7 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Winter/weather will remain.  Winter/NK+AotD is over. 

They should really all head down to Highgarden for Winter, like how New Yorkers go to Florida for the season.  Not like anyone's using Highgarden, and it has the best lands.

We'll......the Tyrell's no longer need it.......

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, shrewd.buddha said:

The characters seem to have developed much stronger plot armor ever since they ran out of the source material books. Now the writers appear to be factoring in fan appeal when deciding who dies - - in terms of how, when and with what degree of reverence. 

I have to say yes.  The way the battle for Winterfell played out, there's no way any of them should have survived.  Sam was just standing there in terror while dozens of white walkers seemed to just completely ignore him while attacking the red shirts.  One tried to kill him but after that he seemed to be bulletproof.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Dobian

[BitterApple]

13 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I have to say yes.  The way the battle for Winterfell played out, there's no way any of them should have survived.  Sam was just standing there in terror while dozens of white walkers seemed to just completely ignore him while attacking the red shirts.  One tried to kill him but after that he seemed to be bulletproof.

Sam should've been a goner. For all his bravado about killing White Walkers and Thens, he spent 90% of the battle blubbering on the ground. I knew the plot armor game was going to be strong going in, but I wish his survival would've been portrayed more realistically. Maybe we can handwave it as the Wights figuring his supine body meant he was dead?

[Lady Iris]

Jon's got a new pet now. Ghost is old news.

[lorbeer]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:32 AM, rozen said:

 I love how Clegane was ready to let all these suckers die until he saw his baby Arya was in danger. He snatched her up like a unruly kitten and booked it!

It was kind of cute when he grabbed her and run. 😉

On 4/29/2019 at 4:37 AM, taurusrose said:

  Seems like Daenerys is still is a snit because she's not the only one.   But Drogon was adorable being sad with her. 

 When Drogon came to mourn with her I thought 'Where the fuck he was when she and Jorah was alone in the battlefield?!'

On 4/29/2019 at 7:46 AM, GraceK said:

Seriously. Hearing the screams of children dying while she’s hiding with dragon glass, then hearing men , soliders beg to come in and that close up on her face was done for a reason. You can’t tell me that wasn’t deliberate. Even when she came in to the crypts she didn’t even smile or say hello to any of the cowering women and children in there, and she’s their “ Lady”. It seemed like a deliberate choice to show her as cold and unfeeling. Are we supposed to see her as Cersei of the North this season?

She wasn't mean and cold. She was scared as they all were. It wasn't "average" war either. Maybe there was a right way to confort all these people but I think everyone including her was convinced they were fucked and would die. I can imagine she didn't find proper words to console the people in that situation. Also she is smart enough to know she can't fight. I figure she was hoping that if it came to it she would be able to at least fight back with that knife. There was no chance to save all those people while the dead Starks 'woke up'. Maybe the war council should put there some soldier 'just in case'. But she did make the right choice to NOT open the door when they heard screaming 'let us in'. They would die immediately. There was also a possibility that it wasn't the living who screamed but the dead to deceive them. I know we know the dead wouldn't scream but Sansa and others didn't know that. And she reassured people a little bit with saying that they were in the right place and that it was the most heroic thing they were able to do to "contribute" to the war. And by that I mean staying away and not to cumber... like Sam did...

[Snowball II]

56 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

As far as Sansa, she's not a trained soldier. I think the audience would've had an even bigger "Are you effing serious?" reaction if Sansa turned into G.I. Jane than if she did the sane (and smart) thing by hiding and living to fight another day. 

This.  It doesn't matter what Sansa does, she can never win.  Pretty much any time the character has dialogue, I know people will have a fit.

[greyhorse]

Finally finished the episode at lunch time behind my closed office door.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who couldn't tell what the heck was happening.  I was watching on my iPhone, I turned the contrast way up, at one point I even turned all my office lights off... the lighting was terrible on the episode, the action too haphazard and fast... it was impossible to tell what was going on or it was happening to.  Is that a main character?  It is a wight?  Who the heck knows!

[chrisvee]

16 hours ago, taurusrose said:

You are being harsh and perhaps not read the many eloquent posts in this thread that explained exactly what Jon, Dany and Bran...

I read them.  Not everyone loved this episode. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by chrisvee

[Macbeth]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

There is a theory that the timing of Arya in the library happened well before the Night King ever made it Bran - which gave her time to wait in a tree... This seems flawed to me...what better opportunity for a kill is there than the target facing a desperate Theon??

That is why I think Arya was in the tree when the Night King showed up.  

He was not near the tree when Theon charged at him.   

[Popples]

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Fiver said:

This.  It doesn't matter what Sansa does, she can never win.  Pretty much any time the character has dialogue, I know people will have a fit.

Yeah, I don't understand. So many people were calling Sam a liability, but expect Sansa to fight. Even though Sam is terrible at combat, he's at least had training available to him. His awful father tried but sent him to the Night's Watch when Sam wasn't the warrior Randyll wanted, then they tried to train him again when he got to Castle Black, to no avail. Sam has had years of help, but Sansa is supposed to be battle ready in a few months? That's unrealistic.

[Oscirus]

Bigger question should've been  why was she out there in the first place? Dany was at least smart enough to have her advisers in the crypt ( even putting Tyrion down there kicking and screaming), yet Jon practically endangered the whole Stark bloodline.

[Efzee]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Sansa made sure Winterfell was a safe haven for all who managed to get there and provided food and shelter to all the refugees and reinforcements flocking to Winterfell. In other words she did exactly what the Lady of Winterfell had to do. Girlpower is great but I'm getting a bit tired of people overlooking that even tiny bears and assassins need food, shelter and awesome cloaks in order to kick ass at their best.

She did and that's great and all, but realistically all she did was walk around Winterfell pointing at things and asking questions of those with actual knowledge/experience  ("shouldn't they add leather to the armor?", "how much food has been stored?" and "how long was the longest winter?" - paraphrasing) and telling others what to do. That doesn't take 24/7. Not even 8 hours a day. She should have included an hour or two of self defense classes with Brienne, if only to be able to defend herself and her people in the crypts if the wights/WW/NK broke through the door. Instead, they were sitting ducks. She didn't even pull out the dagger Arya gave her until it was almost  too late. 

Not saying she should've been a GI Jane all of a sudden, but she's basically been claiming her spot as Lady of Winterfell (and even considered betraying/overthrowing Jon when he went to Dragonstone) and yet just hid while her people were being killed. Kinda hard to be the lady of anything if everyone else is dead.

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

I think the Night King makes winter worse and/or longer.  Although I've been confused on that, too.  DId he control the weather from beyond the wall?  It seems they've had bad winters before, even if it's been more than a few years, so was he doing that?  but it's been so long since the Night King and WW were around, and the wall built, that people didn't think they were real anymore.  So how all that works out, I don't know.  

I'm not sure if it was told in the show, possibly early on by Old Nan, but in the books it was said that the NK (well, really "the Others") brings the cold. Not necessarily winter itself. And winter being over just because the NK is dead makes no sense either when all the adults/eldery were talking about how all the young ones have only seen spring, never winter early on. So, I think the NK brought the (cold) winds and icy/snowy storm during the battle, but that it'll still continue to snow now that he's dead. It will be a "normal" Westeros winter, not a long night that'll last years.

[taanja]

Holy shit!

Arya! My Kween!!!!!

That is all.

[GraceK]

I didn’t expect Sansa to fight. That’s dumb. I think it’s consistent actually that she doesn’t, that’s never her role. She’s right when she said it’s a liability to be out there. My issue is that she did nothing else. What I didn’t like was her coming in and looking at everyone , not even giving a smile, and then her reference to Dany.

Look I’ll be honest. I didn’t appreciate the fact that Missendi, a former slave woman who grew up in a life that Sansa will never know, who was an actual child sex  slave, and has not even been given a kind word or acknowledgement by the Lady of Winterfell. Her boyfriend, Greyworm, is at the moment defending the castle and Sansas life , and all of their lives with his men and his life, and she is looked at with disdain. Sansa gave her one look when she came in and didn’t even even give her courtesy, simply because she serves Dany. Dany, who by the way, is out there fighting with all of her forces , on dragon back, along side Sansas brother . And Sansa is still calling her the dragon queen and is resentful.

everyone is so quick to defend Sansa because of her desire for northern independence and her right to be “ upset”, but really, she has lost nothing.  If Winterfell falls, there is no north. If Cersei wins after this war, there is still no Northern independence. Without Danys help, either way, Sansa loses. The North cannot take on both this war with the NK and Cersei on their own. Cersei will never give the North up, if anything, she will purposely destroy them. So this hatred Sansa has for Dany , and her antagonistic attitude is ridiculous and unearned. 

So yeah, it’s irritating that while Sansa is holed up safe in the crypts, giving Shade to the women who is responsible for the soldiers who are right now dying by the thousands in defense of the north and she can’t even be bothered to try comfort the women and children or get to know her brothers allies,  it makes people  look askance.

[phoenix780]

I've never heard the term "plot armor" before but I think I'm super into it. I'm tired of shows trying to shock me into caring by offing characters left and right. But, I'm older, I remember back in the day when main characters never really died even if (or especially if) it was implausible that they'd survive, and...I think I miss that. I get enough reality from the real world, I'm up for a show that has heroes who win, though I realize that not all of them will make it to the finale.

I thought Sansa in the crypt was having the realization that she's not super useful, even if she is the smartest person Arya knows. I'm looking forward to see what, if anything, they do with her from this point. 

[Macbeth]

"People are shocked that Death lost in the semi-finals."  I heard this on a radio show this morning.  I laughed, because it is true for me.

As for the Night King's motive.  I never had any question what it was.  The Children of the Forest created him solely to kill men as men were killing them.  Unfortunately they did not see that he would kill them as well.

I don't get how he was defeated in the past?  They built the wall to keep him out.  How could they have stopped him in the past without killing him?

Or does that mean the Knight King will rise again sometime in the future, and this kill is only momentary and something else has the power bring him back again?  Or maybe another man will be made into a Night King?

[Efzee]

Also, for all those hating on Bran/Sam and them surviving... clearly they needed to, so that Bran can dictate all the history books (and the Song of Ice and Fire) to Sam.

[DarkRaichu]

45 minutes ago, lorbeer said:

When Drogon came to mourn with her I thought 'Where the fuck he was when she and Jorah was alone in the battlefield?!'

Trying to shake off the 100 or so pesky ice zombies riding on him and hacking him little bit at a time

[Blakeston]

22 minutes ago, Efzee said:

She did and that's great and all, but realistically all she did was walk around Winterfell pointing at things and asking questions of those with actual knowledge/experience  ("shouldn't they add leather to the armor?", "how much food has been stored?" and "how long was the longest winter?" - paraphrasing) and telling others what to do. That doesn't take 24/7. Not even 8 hours a day. She should have included an hour or two of self defense classes with Brienne, if only to be able to defend herself and her people in the crypts if the wights/WW/NK broke through the door. Instead, they were sitting ducks. She didn't even pull out the dagger Arya gave her until it was almost  too late. 

Not saying she should've been a GI Jane all of a sudden, but she's basically been claiming her spot as Lady of Winterfell (and even considered betraying/overthrowing Jon when he went to Dragonstone) and yet just hid while her people were being killed. Kinda hard to be the lady of anything if everyone else is dead.

Sansa has a lot of symbolic value to the North, but extremely little value as a fighter. If I were a Northerner, I'd want her in the crypt. The odds of her actually making the difference in the battle against the Night King were basically zero, but her death in battle would have been quite demoralizing.

It's the same reason the First Lady is immediately escorted into a safe room in the event of an attack on the US, instead of being given a gun and asked to fight.

20 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I didn’t expect Sansa to fight. That’s dumb. I think it’s consistent actually that she doesn’t, that’s never her role. She’s right when she said it’s a liability to be out there. My issue is that she did nothing else. What I didn’t like was her coming in and looking at everyone , not even giving a smile, and then her reference to Dany.

Look I’ll be honest. I didn’t appreciate the fact that Missendi, a former slave woman who grew up in a life that Sansa will never know, who was an actual child sex  slave, and has not even been given a kind word or acknowledgement by the Lady of Winterfell. Her boyfriend, Greyworm, is at the moment defending the castle and Sansas life , and all of their lives with his men and his life, and she is looked at with disdain. Sansa gave her one look when she came in and didn’t even even give her courtesy, simply because she serves Dany. Dany, who by the way, is out there fighting with all of her forces , on dragon back, along side Sansas brother . And Sansa is still calling her the dragon queen and is resentful.

everyone is so quick to defend Sansa because of her desire for northern independence and her right to be “ upset”, but really, she has lost nothing.  If Winterfell falls, there is no north. If Cersei wins after this war, there is still no Northern independence. Without Danys help, either way, Sansa loses. The North cannot take on both this war with the NK and Cersei on their own. Cersei will never give the North up, if anything, she will purposely destroy them. So this hatred Sansa has for Dany , and her antagonistic attitude is ridiculous and unearned. 

So yeah, it’s irritating that while Sansa is holed up safe in the crypts, giving Shade to the women who is responsible for the soldiers who are right now dying by the thousands in defense of the north and she can’t even be bothered to try comfort the women and children or get to know her brothers allies,  it makes people  look askance.

I don't think Sansa's comments in the crypt were especially disrespectful toward Dany. She was acknowledging that she and Dany are on different sides on the issue of Northern independence. And she was right that it would be a major issue between her and Tyrion.

[Lady Iris]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Sam should've been a goner. For all his bravado about killing White Walkers and Thens, he spent 90% of the battle blubbering on the ground. I knew the plot armor game was going to be strong going in, but I wish his survival would've been portrayed more realistically. Maybe we can handwave it as the Wights figuring his supine body meant he was dead?

End of Season 1, it always struck me as weird that the shirtless dead guy on a horse looked right down at Sam and went by without so much as a tip of the cap. Maybe Sam's just considered persona non grata to them.

[jojozigs]

So... I always thought Arya would kill Cersei and Jon the NK.  Who kills Cersei now?  Or maybe they make peace somehow?  

[izabella]

Such an intense episode!  My heart was pounding throughout. 

The moment when all the wights dropped dead-dead was awesome.  I can imagine our main characters, and especially Jon, were dumbfounded for a second until they realize that someone must have managed to kill the NK and Jon was right that they would die-die if the NK was killed.  Jon, if no one else, must have wondered WHO it was that killed the NK, having no idea it was Arya.  If the survivors got together after the battle before Arya (and Bran?) get back to them, they were probably all, "Did you kill the NK?  No?  Who did it?!"  And then Arya and Bran come in...

I didn't understand why Bran warged into the ravens during the battle, but am guessing that, since he is the keeper of all memory and history, he sent them out so he could see the history and memory in the making, all parts of it.  I'm also wondering if some of the ravens went south, and he will have some (minimal, cryptic) info for our warriors to prepare for the battle against Cersei.

As for Cersei, in my mind, it has to be Jaime that kills her.  He started the story pushing Bran off a ledge to protect their secret, so now he must be the one to end their story by killing her.

I knew Mel was going out to die when she left the castle and dropped her magic ruby necklace that kept her young image up, but I didn't expect her to just drop dead.  I thought she'd go out in a flame of glory.  I can't forgive her for Shireen, but she did all she could to help when it counted.

[DarkRaichu]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

There is a theory that the timing of Arya in the library happened well before the Night King ever made it Bran - which gave her time to wait in a tree... This seems flawed to me...what better opportunity for a kill is there than the target facing a desperate Theon??

Except that NK's posse was directly behind him when Theon charged.  When NK approached Bran by himself, he put some distance between him and WWs/wights.

I don't think Arya was hiding on the trees though.  She was lying on the ground pretending to be dead closer to Bran (ie. surrounded by the wights+WWs).   If she was outside the circle of WWs/wights, she ran the risk of alerting the WWs since she had to run pass all of them to get to NK.  

Edited April 30, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[LadyChaos]

42 minutes ago, Fiver said:

This.  It doesn't matter what Sansa does, she can never win.  Pretty much any time the character has dialogue, I know people will have a fit.

Because she is a horrible character (not evil, but not a good person), and I honestly do not get how so many people love her.  I honestly laugh every time we are told she is so smart, and good.  She even admitted to Jon that before, she was a horrible person to him, well she was worse with him, but she treated everyone like crap and was a spoiled rotten brat.  Now she is older, but she still excepts no blame for her actions, sees no fault in what she does, still treats Jon like he is a piece of crap, belittles everyone she thinks is beneath her, especially those who are legitimately trying to help her. I can list on one hand, how many scenes where I genuinely thought she did the right thing and usually shortly after she ruins it by acting like herself again.  

TBF, I think that the problem with Sansa's character is twofold.  

1) we're constantly being told how great she is, while never actually seeing her do something smart...aside from executing Littlefinger.

2)I think once tptb ran out of book material to go with, they did a piss poor job trying to do with her what I think was meant to berher trajectory of being LittleFinger 2.0....... It would have worked too, if they had actually shown she had a stronger aptitude for it, because mostly she just comes across as second rate.  She also forgot one of Littlefingers key features, was to openly never be hostile to anyone who might question his allegiance.  Because right now, the only thing I can say about her, is that she has a neck for getting others to help her survive, and not in a manipulative way either, but bc they are trying to manipulate and use her.

19 minutes ago, Efzee said:

She did and that's great and all, but realistically all she did was walk around Winterfell pointing at things and asking questions of those with actual knowledge/experience  ("shouldn't they add leather to the armor?", "how much food has been stored?" and "how long was the longest winter?" - paraphrasing) and telling others what to do. That doesn't take 24/7. Not even 8 hours a day. She should have included an hour or two of self defense classes with Brienne, if only to be able to defend herself and her people in the crypts if the wights/WW/NK broke through the door. Instead, they were sitting ducks. She didn't even pull out the dagger Arya gave her until it was almost  too late. 

She and Tyrion could have literally done anything other than what they did, but what they did by sitting there making snide remarks, hiding, and letting everyone die.  I mean, see didn't actually see the dead when the Dothraki, she just knew the stakes were higher.  So when she went to the crypts, for her there really wasn't any difference than in the battle of Blackwater when she sat with the Queen.  She sat and waited, and listened.  She was scared then, but at least Sansa tried to keep everyone calm. This time she just ignored everyone but Tyrion like they didn't even matter. And TBH, I think to her, they didn't.   In the battle of blackwater, she knew she needed to set an example because she would be their Queen.  Now, she didn't care, because she wasn't their ruler, and even if Dany let the North remain independent, the crown would go back to Jon, not her.

They lost alot of people in the crypts, but plenty still survived, and they will let everyone know that she ignored them all.  You think Gilly and Missandei won't be eager to tell everyone that Sansa sat there and hid while her people died?

17 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I didn’t expect Sansa to fight. That’s dumb. I think it’s consistent actually that she doesn’t, that’s never her role. She’s right when she said it’s a liability to be out there. My issue is that she did nothing else. What I didn’t like was her coming in and looking at everyone , not even giving a smile, and then her reference to Dany.

Look I’ll be honest. I didn’t appreciate the fact that Missendi, a former slave woman who grew up in a life that Sansa will never know, who was an actual child sex  slave, and has not even been given a kind word or acknowledgement by the Lady of Winterfell. Her boyfriend, Greyworm, is at the moment defending the castle and Sansas life , and all of their lives with his men and his life, and she is looked at with disdain. Sansa gave her one look when she came in and didn’t even even give her courtesy, simply because she serves Dany. Dany, who by the way, is out there fighting with all of her forces , on dragon back, along side Sansas brother . And Sansa is still calling her the dragon queen and is resentful.

everyone is so quick to defend Sansa because of her desire for northern independence and her right to be “ upset”, but really, she has lost nothing.  If Winterfell falls, there is no north. If Cersei wins after this war, there is still no Northern independence. Without Danys help, either way, Sansa loses. The North cannot take on both this war with the NK and Cersei on their own. Cersei will never give the North up, if anything, she will purposely destroy them. So this hatred Sansa has for Dany , and her antagonistic attitude is ridiculous and unearned. 

So yeah, it’s irritating that while Sansa is holed up safe in the crypts, giving Shade to the women who is responsible for the soldiers who are right now dying by the thousands in defense of the north and she can’t even be bothered to try comfort the women and children or get to know her brothers allies,  it makes people  look askance.

All of this too! I didn't really expect her start going all Captain Marvel on people's butt, but when she saw HER people were in danger....she and Tyrion could have put their brains together, AS THEY ARE SO SMART AND ALL.....and used them to try something.....anything other then hide and listen to them get slaughtered...

[LadyChaos]

32 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

"People are shocked that Death lost in the semi-finals."  I heard this on a radio show this morning.  I laughed, because it is true for me.

Honestly, after thinking on it for a bit, I think killing the NK off in 803 made sense.  When writing a story, a writer will use a narrative arc. For this story, the narrative arc spans over 8  seasons, thought tbh 7-8 are really one season.  The buildup to the climax of a novel should start at about the 75% point of the story.  One could argue that was s7.  I consider 803 the climax so now they are starting to comedown. Everything here on out, Cersei and the throne, while important, is just about cleaning up loose ends and bringing closure to the story.

[Efzee]

18 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Trying to shake off the 100 or so pesky ice zombies riding on him and hacking him little bit at a time

I think I felt more sympathy for Drogon while all the undead were climbing on him and stabbing him, than when pretty much any of the main characters was attacked... 😓 Certainly cared more about him flying off to safety than Dolorous Edd dying.

14 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Sansa has a lot of symbolic value to the North, but extremely little value as a fighter. If I were a Northerner, I'd want her in the crypt. The odds of her actually making the difference in the battle against the Night King were basically zero, but her death in battle would have been quite demoralizing.

It's the same reason the First Lady is immediately escorted into a safe room in the event of an attack on the US, instead of being given a gun and asked to fight.

I don't think Sansa's comments in the crypt were especially disrespectful toward Dany. She was acknowledging that she and Dany are on different sides on the issue of Northern independence. And she was right that it would be a major issue between her and Tyrion.

Except FLOTUS would be escorted into a safe room and guarded by armed security. 

[LadyChaos]

21 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Trying to shake off the 100 or so pesky ice zombies riding on him and hacking him little bit at a time

trying to shake off his pesky ice mosquitos 

[Efzee]

7 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

TBF, I think that the problem with Sansa's character is twofold.  

1) we're constantly being told how great she is, while never actually seeing her do something smart...aside from executing Littlefinger.

And she didn't even execute him herself...

Not to mention that TPTB cut the scene from that episode where Bran told Sansa and Arya that LF was playing them against each other and that's how they figured it out and decided he had to be executed. It wasn't even Sansa's alleged "smarts" who figured it out*.

*Sidenote: I was also disappointed in Arya for falling for it. But she did kinda make up for that failure by killing the NK.

[MadameKillerB]

7 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

...she and Tyrion could have put their brains together, AS THEY ARE SO SMART AND ALL.....and used them to try something.....anything other then hide and listen to them get slaughtered...

But they did. They were preparing themselves to fight when all the wights collapsed. If Arya hadn't killed the NK at that moment, Tyrion and Sansa would have likely died fighting.

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, MadameKillerB said:

But they did. They were preparing themselves to fight when all the wights collapsed. If Arya hadn't killed the NK at that moment, Tyrion and Sansa would have likely died fighting.

Clearly we were seeing to different shows, because I saw her and Tyrion trying to get away without being seen while leaving everyone to slaughter.

[Efzee]

4 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

But they did. They were preparing themselves to fight when all the wights collapsed. If Arya hadn't killed the NK at that moment, Tyrion and Sansa would have likely died fighting.

They certainly would have died, but I think that's the only part we can agree on 😉 

[GraceK]

[screamin]

17 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

They lost alot of people in the crypts, but plenty still survived, and they will let everyone know that she ignored them all.  You think Gilly and Missandei won't be eager to tell everyone that Sansa sat there and hid while her people died?

Except she didn't. After panicking and hiding - which I agree was not her finest moment, though it's to be noted that Tyrion (who HAS actual battle experience) did exactly the same thing - she pulled out a dagger first and wordlessly agreed with Tyrion to charge out and fight instead of waiting in hiding for either rescue or death.

There was apparently a scene of Tyrion and her taking on a wight together which was cut for time. https://twitter.com/StarkyRed/status/1122883459754745856

 It WAS filmed though, so there won't be subsequent scenes of other characters rebuking her for not fighting.

Edited April 30, 2019 by screamin

[MadameKillerB]

Okie dokie. I interpreted this as them prepping to do something: Sansa pulling out the dagger and giving Tyrion the look like, "we're going to die," moving closer to where people are hiding and preparing to defend them.

And hey, I get it. People absolutely despise Sansa here in this forum. I just like watching the show and talking about it. Everyone entitled to their likes/dislikes/opinions 🙂

[MissLucas]

They did kill a wight but it ended on the cutting room floor. Sometimes I think TPTB like to throw a bit of oil in the Sansa-hatred that already burns like wildfire.

And it should be noted that the great Spider also did not manage to come up with a cunning plan.

[GodsBeloved]

4 minutes ago, screamin said:

There was apparently a scene of Tyrion and her taking on a wight together which was cut for time. https://twitter.com/StarkyRed/status/1122883459754745856

 It WAS filmed though, so there won't be subsequent scenes of other characters rebuking her for not fighting.

Can we put this on the jumbotron 😂

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Im a bit numb about the Arya killing the nightwalker thing. I guess its fine but eh, this era of subverting expectations is taking it's toll on the stories of today.

Jon seems like the hero so that's an expectation, but she's been training as an assassin for years etc. It's not as subversion on the level of Sam killing him. It's really just substituting stealth assassin for face-to-face heroic combat. And everything about the battle, imo, sets that up because the battle was the open combat and they were overmatched every time. Jon and Theon both try it and easily get beaten.

8 hours ago, BooBear said:

One thing I get from this episode is how little it seems Jon really cares about Dany. When she fell off her dragon, where was he? Jorah was over there watching out for her. Jon is like - Brannnnnnnn.  They are like work partners. I got more love this episode from Jamie and Brianne, Hound and Arya, and Sansa and Tyrion than the main couple.  Notice there was no final kiss before the fight? Not feeling the epic love. 

Jon's prime directive has always been protecting the people rather than personal love, whether or not he cares about the person. I don't think he'd ever relate to Danny as someone he needed to rush to if they fell during a battle. (At least, no more than he would another Night Watch brother or, say, Ned Stark.) His original relationship with Dany was based on his needing her help for protection, after all.

He would never have made the choice Rob did about his wife, for instance.

6 hours ago, Friendly kitty said:

But why did she kill herself so stupidly? I still understood if she would die for a just cause, fighting, fleeing from the dead ... And so it looked silly and strange.

I don't think she was killing herself so much as letting herself die. The LoL was finished with her so she went to him. 

6 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I have mixed feelings about Arya killing the Night King especially after hearing what D&D said about it. It was a fantastically set scene, but they wanted to NOT let Jon do it because that would be expected. Subversion of expectations sometimes works, but it felt a little contrived to me and now I know why. 

Wasn't the contrivance the point? That everything was set in place for Arya to succeed? The fact that it was Arya herself isn't any more contrived than Jon--she'd been actively training for this mission for years just as he'd been actively warning against the NK for years, so they're pretty even there.

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

So, Sansa did the grocery shopping, while Dany, Arya, Brienne, Lyanna and Alyss Karstark fought wight, White Walkers and the Night King. :)

I'm not saying Sansa wasn't valuable or that she is going to be seen as a coward, but I doubt the North will still see her on the same level as those great warrior women.   

I'm not so sure they'd prefer a warrior woman as an actual leader. Grocery shopping for thousands of refugees is a bitch and it's going to cause a lot more unrest in the land when you fail at things like that than not being the biggest badass in the legend. 

I actually think people will probably have very good thoughts about Sansa when this is over. They'll remember that she welcomed everyone within the walls and arranged for them to be fed. And I don't think they'd resent that she was just there among them in the crypt when the dead broke out. I wouldn't be surprised if they felt doubly bad for her since it was her relatives attacking. If that kind of courage is so central to their identity they probably wouldn't complain a young woman didn't save them when they themselves weren't fighting either.

34 minutes ago, Efzee said:

She did and that's great and all, but realistically all she did was walk around Winterfell pointing at things and asking questions of those with actual knowledge/experience  ("shouldn't they add leather to the armor?", "how much food has been stored?" and "how long was the longest winter?" - paraphrasing) and telling others what to do. That doesn't take 24/7.

I suspect that's actually not what she was realistically doing--that's what we saw her doing because administrative stuff is boring to watch. Self-defense class would have been fine too, but I don't think it would have made that much of a difference. She probably would still have done the same thing: waited, freaked out, gotten herself together and go out with a knife and hope for the best.

4 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think Sansa's comments in the crypt were especially disrespectful toward Dany. She was acknowledging that she and Dany are on different sides on the issue of Northern independence. And she was right that it would be a major issue between her and Tyrion.

Me neither. I took Missandei's comments to be something she was saying out of stress and anxiety and just general impatience with anybody talking about whether it mattered who was ruling at this point, as well as her instinctive loyalty to Dany over Sansa. A Northern person might have said the same thing in reverse if they'd happen to overhear her saying something about how the North was being troublesome about this stuff.

11 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

She was scared then, but at least Sansa tried to keep everyone calm.

Everyone was calm. I don't think Sansa did anything particularly good in the crypts that we saw, but I don't think she was called on to do anything either. Tyrion has some hope that he could make a difference. Sansa didn't think she could. Nobody in the crypt needed her down there. She was just another person sitting there hoping not to die. Her being there meant things were going pear shaped. Her presence spoke louder than any speech she might have tried to make and nobody was going to be cheered up by it.

3 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Clearly we were seeing to different shows, because I saw her and Tyrion trying to get away without being seen while leaving everyone to slaughter.

But there was nowhere for them to get away. By coming out of their hiding place with knives I don't think there's anything else they could be doing than going out to fight. 

[LadyChaos]

5 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

They did kill a wight but it ended on the cutting room floor. Sometimes I think TPTB like to throw a bit of oil in the Sansa-hatred that already burns like wildfire.

And it should be noted that the great Spider also did not manage to come up with a cunning plan.

Sometimes, I think that writers do this too.  Because the writers and tptb intended Sansa to completely be under Littlefingers thumb in s7, and then realized what it would look like so they cut her going to Bran.....and then told everyone about it so we all knew she had fallen under Little Finger's thumb again and was considering turning on her family.

Now they had proof that Sansa and Tyrion were going to fight for the people, and cut it, so they looked like giant turds. 

[kieyra]

15 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

Okie dokie. I interpreted this as them prepping to do something: Sansa pulling out the dagger and giving Tyrion the look like, "we're going to die," moving closer to where people are hiding and preparing to defend them.

And hey, I get it. People absolutely despise Sansa here in this forum. I just like watching the show and talking about it. Everyone entitled to their likes/dislikes/opinions 🙂

I also think there was an editing issue there. She had her knife pulled. She was obviously about to go poke some wights. 

And no, not everyone here despises Sansa. As others have pointed out, she can't win--no matter what she did in the crypt, some people would be complaining. The hatred for the character locked in somewhere between her rape/torture by Ramsey and her daring to argue with savior Jon. It's unshakeable now for a lot of people. She's not fitting into any of the acceptable roles for female characters in the show (either be a badass or keep your mouth shut), so she's just wrong no matter what.

Edited April 30, 2019 by kieyra

[Sakura12]

What I saw on brighter screen the second time was Sansa and Tyrion pulling out knifes, moving from their hiding spots, then the next scene was them going to another hiding spot with Verys and some kids. Then coming out after the all dead died again. 

I didn't expect Sansa to fight up top with the rest of them. I did expect her to help her people try to escape after the dead started rising. Not hide while her people were dying. Same goes for Tyrion. For all the talk about him making a difference he didn't do anything when given the chance. I don't know why the writers made that choice for them. More so since the dead they were fighting were mostly bones and dust not the freshly reanimated. 

Especially when Dany another non fighter picked up sword rather then that Jorah do all the work or ran and hid in the flames. Which she could've done. She'd lose her clothes but the dead couldn't get her. 

[Efzee]

19 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

And it should be noted that the great Spider also did not manage to come up with a cunning plan.

I was wondering what had "earned" him a place in the crypts. Not having balls isn't an excuse to duck out of the fighting. He may not be a soldier, but neither were the northern farmers/refugees like the guy talking to Davos in the previous ep.

Tyrion was sent there because Dany needs him as HotQ, but Varys hasn't really given much advice so far and certainly isn't someone she really relies on/needs. Yet.

And not having balls also kinda disqualifies him for repopulation afterwards. I was already thinking to myself that the north could end up with a disproportionate number of dwarves in the future if Tyrion stayed up there... didn't see any other men, except for little boys. Not even elderly ones.

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I suspect that's actually not what she was realistically doing--that's what we saw her doing because administrative stuff is boring to watch. Self-defense class would have been fine too, but I don't think it would have made that much of a difference. She probably would still have done the same thing: waited, freaked out, gotten herself together and go out with a knife and hope for the best.

What kind of admin do you think Sansa has been doing as Lady of Winterfell while Jon was recruiting Dany etc.? Genuine question. Because she did not have a clue about how much food they had, how much had been brought in by the northerners, how many mouths they could feed and so on. Granted, she was the one who caught the lack of leather for the new armor but if she'd been up to date on production numbers and the amounts of raw material they had etc. then she would have already known this without having to see it.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Efzee
forgot to include varys' role as advisor

[LadyChaos]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Jon seems like the hero so that's an expectation, but she's been training as an assassin for years etc. It's not as subversion on the level of Sam killing him. It's really just substituting stealth assassin for face-to-face heroic combat. And everything about the battle, imo, sets that up because the battle was the open combat and they were overmatched every time. Jon and Theon both try it and easily get beaten.

Jon's prime directive has always been protecting the people rather than personal love, whether or not he cares about the person. I don't think he'd ever relate to Danny as someone he needed to rush to if they fell during a battle. (At least, no more than he would another Night Watch brother or, say, Ned Stark.) His original relationship with Dany was based on his needing her help for protection, after all.

He would never have made the choice Rob did about his wife, for instance.

What I don't understand is what Jon should have don?  When the fog came they were literally bumping into each other not sure if they were each other or the NK. When Jon finally made it out of the fog and landed, and he realized Dany was still in there, it would have been stupid to go back in to find her when he wouldn't know if it was her he found, then to stay there and and wait for the NK, which was their original plan.  

When she came to his rescue, and she landed she was still on Drogon.  Jon left her, in pursuit of the NK while she was still on Drogon.  He had no reason to believe that she couldn't protect herself.  If she has taken back to the air, instead of sitting there, she would have been fine.

jon is definitely not a person to put anything about himself over the people.  Even though he loved Ygritte, there was no love lost between him and most of the Wildlings  especially after they attacked Castle Black, but he still set aside his personal feelings and made peace with them for 'the greater good' of Westeros.  Even though he loves Dany, if his people didn't like the idea of him marrying her, I think he would set her aside. 

[Efzee]

3 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Especially when Dany another non fighter picked up sword rather then that Jorah do all the work or ran and hid in the flames. Which she could've done. She'd lose her clothes but the dead couldn't get her. 

During the badly lit dragon chase/fight I kept thinking it was a good thing for Jon that the NK had Vyserion fire at Drogon/Dany rather than Rhaegal/Jon because at least Dany can withstand the heat (even if she would end up naked) - Jon would've been dracarysed to death if roles were reversed. Perhaps that's also one of the reasons it's said only those with "blood of the dragon" can ride dragons.

[lorbeer]

57 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Trying to shake off the 100 or so pesky ice zombies riding on him and hacking him little bit at a time

Yeah, at first... She and Jorah were there for quite time...

[catrice2]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I didn’t expect Sansa to fight. That’s dumb. I think it’s consistent actually that she doesn’t, that’s never her role. She’s right when she said it’s a liability to be out there. My issue is that she did nothing else. What I didn’t like was her coming in and looking at everyone , not even giving a smile, and then her reference to Dany.

Look I’ll be honest. I didn’t appreciate the fact that Missendi, a former slave woman who grew up in a life that Sansa will never know, who was an actual child sex  slave, and has not even been given a kind word or acknowledgement by the Lady of Winterfell. Her boyfriend, Greyworm, is at the moment defending the castle and Sansas life , and all of their lives with his men and his life, and she is looked at with disdain. Sansa gave her one look when she came in and didn’t even even give her courtesy, simply because she serves Dany. Dany, who by the way, is out there fighting with all of her forces , on dragon back, along side Sansas brother . And Sansa is still calling her the dragon queen and is resentful.

everyone is so quick to defend Sansa because of her desire for northern independence and her right to be “ upset”, but really, she has lost nothing.  If Winterfell falls, there is no north. If Cersei wins after this war, there is still no Northern independence. Without Danys help, either way, Sansa loses. The North cannot take on both this war with the NK and Cersei on their own. Cersei will never give the North up, if anything, she will purposely destroy them. So this hatred Sansa has for Dany , and her antagonistic attitude is ridiculous and unearned. 

So yeah, it’s irritating that while Sansa is holed up safe in the crypts, giving Shade to the women who is responsible for the soldiers who are right now dying by the thousands in defense of the north and she can’t even be bothered to try comfort the women and children or get to know her brothers allies,  it makes people  look askance.

And you have a 13 year old risking her life and her whole house willingly taking up the cause and she cannot even comfort people? I did not expect her to fight but to do something. Useless.

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Efzee said:

What kind of admin do you think Sansa has been doing as Lady of Winterfell while Jon was recruiting Dany etc.? Genuine question. Because she did not have a clue about how much food they had, how much had been brought in by the northerners, how many mouths they could feed and so on. Granted, she was the one who caught the lack of leather for the new armor but if she'd been up to date on production numbers and the amounts of raw material they had etc. then she would have already known this without having to see it.

I honestly don't know what it would involve for her personally, but I took them showing her asking questions like that to mean that she's going to be the person in charge of those things. I assume that's the way the running of a big place like that works. The fact that Sansa was thinking about feeding people meant that she was going to make sure feeding people happened, if that makes sense. Presumably she'd have people with jobs who took care of plenty of the tasks at hand, but she considered it a responsibility to make sure it was getting done.

[kieyra]

I legitimately do not know what words of comfort were supposed to have sufficed when they were facing the literal extinction of all life. The fact that there was nothing she could say drove home how dire the situation was. The characters spent all of the previous episode discussing their upcoming certain death, and yet Sansa is still supposed to perform some sort of Mommy role for the actual adults around her, and lie about how everything is going to be fine? Even Tyrion didn't bother with pointless pep talks. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by kieyra

[Absurda]

I don't dislike Sansa, but I think she does have a problem with the way she comes across to people.  She's always had a superiority complex.  At the beginning her attitude was that the North, Winterfell and everything in it sucked.  She was too good for it and was destined for greater things.  That's a typical teenage attitude btw.  But she never seemed to grow out of it.

Now, her attitude has done a 180:  The North and Winterfell is everything, Sansa knows best in every situation, anything and anyone not from the North sucks and is stupid.  She also tends to argue with snark and snideness (is that a word?) that seems unfair to the people she's arguing with.  They're doing the best they know how to do and what they genuinely believe to be right, they don't deserve Sansa's sarcasm and virtual eyerolls.

All that said, when she pointed out to Tyrion that his loyalty to the dragon queen would be a problem between them, I didn't get the feeling that she was throwing shade on anyone.  Just being truthful and reflective.  In the moment, I thought Missendei's comeback to her was overly harsh. 

Of course, Missendei's overall message (this woman is fighting and potentially dying for the North, doesn't that earn some loyalty from you?) is worth Sansa hearing.  She doesn't have to give up on an independent North, but she could at least see Dany is not the enemy.

[catrice2]

37 minutes ago, screamin said:

Except she didn't. After panicking and hiding - which I agree was not her finest moment, though it's to be noted that Tyrion (who HAS actual battle experience) did exactly the same thing - she pulled out a dagger first and wordlessly agreed with Tyrion to charge out and fight instead of waiting in hiding for either rescue or death.

There was apparently a scene of Tyrion and her taking on a wight together which was cut for time. https://twitter.com/StarkyRed/status/1122883459754745856

 It WAS filmed though, so there won't be subsequent scenes of other characters rebuking her for not fighting.

Deciding to fight at the very end wins no points with me.