S08.E02: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

[Timetoread]

3 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I agree. Maybe Jon, because he's a "do the right thing" kind of guy, but I don't see it with Dany. Her first reaction to the Lyanna news was to accuse Jon of trying to usurp her. It wasn't to consider how Jon might be feeling after discovering his entire life was a lie. I think they're mutually attracted to one another and share similar goals, but I don't see their relationship as "ride or die" or one that has any real depth. I know mileage will vary on this one.

Of course he didn't consider how it would make her feel either.  HER whole life also being a lie.

[Sakura12]

They haven't know each other long enough to have that kind of love. And I don't know why Dany's first thoughts should be on Jon's feelings. That news is a blow to her too. She spent the last 6 years with one goal, getting the Iron Throne. Now everything she did was for nothing. Jon has more of a right than her because he has a penis. They are both dealing with a lot. Jon doesn't know what Dany's been through to get where she is. He was thinking about his feelings not hers as well. 

[terrymct]

31 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Actually, this is the best opportunity for Dany to be true to her "break the wheel" persona.  Forget all of the restriction of bloodlines and be the true champion of the people at Westeros.  So what if the elites in Westeros think she is just another invader from the east.  Even if they unite against her and worst case defeat her, at least she is true to her cause.

If Dany truly wants to "break the wheel", Tyrion has made some noises in past seasons that sounded like he might think a limited form of democracy would be a good idea.

[Yodabeesh]

So glad that the fight with the White Walkers didn't happen last night. I'm not mentally prepared for that.

I was DEFINITELY not prepared for Arya to hook up with Gendry. No foreplay, no spit. That had to hurt. She just mounted his weapon and went to town. I'm glad that she lost her virginity though before she potentially dies. She can check that one off of her bucket list. (Not the "other" list.)

[ulkis]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

but I don't see their relationship as "ride or die" or one that has any real depth. I know mileage will vary on this one.

Agreed. There just wasn't enough time to develop it much over 7 episodes.

It's too bad the writers didn't decide right from the start not to wait to see if Martin would finish another book and just planned everything out right from the start, I feel like then Dany would have come to Westeros sooner.

Quote

Jon has more of a right than her because he has a penis. 

It's because he's the first born of the first born.

Edited April 22, 2019 by ulkis

[Growsonwalls]

Just now, terrymct said:

If Dany truly wants to "break the wheel", Tyrion has made some noises in past seasons that sounded like he might think a limited form of democracy would be a good idea.

I think the opening scene where Sansa, Dany, Bran and Jon were all deciding the fate of Jaime was already breaking the wheel. Could you imagine Cersei or Tywin holding that kind of cabinet-like meeting? Not to say Sansa, Dany, and Jon are perfect people or perfect rulers. But none of them are "power is power" type people.

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, Law Mom said:

The Vale: As much as we hate it, Robin Arryn is the rightful heir.

Remember one of the good things Little Finger did was drop Robin Arryn off with one of the Arryn bannermen for fostering.  From all indications, it was a good set up.  Robin may be much improved the next time we see him.

[Growsonwalls]

Did you guys see this?

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, Yodabeesh said:

So glad that the fight with the White Walkers didn't happen last night. I'm not mentally prepared for that.

I was DEFINITELY not prepared for Arya to hook up with Gendry. No foreplay, no spit. That had to hurt. She just mounted his weapon and went to town. I'm glad that she lost her virginity though before she potentially dies. She can check that one off of her bucket list. (Not the "other" list.)

Does that hurt more than getting beat up everyday by the Waif? Most likely not

[UNOSEZ]

4 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Of course he didn't consider how it would make her feel either.  HER whole life also being a lie.

But nobody was actively lying to her... His Father(uncle)  did... For all the right reasons.. But he still did.. And that caused his step-mother to hate him... He grew up thinking he was some whore's son and the only blemish on Honorable Ned Stark's record... His parents selfishly fell in love and helped kick off this war.... Every body has stuff going on.. Everyone has been thru trauma.. The AOTD is on the way.. But between those two this particular piece of info long-term is more impactful for Jon... Dany said it herself.. All this means to her is that there is (possibly)  another person with a claim on the throne.. For Jon it re-arranges damn near every relationship he has... His siblings are now his cousins... To the north he's now maybe a targaryen instead of a stark... 

[Yodabeesh]

16 hours ago, Leroux said:

OMG, I was such a mess this episode.

Sansa hug with Theon, I felt it in my heart. 

Podrick singing, Brienne being knighted. 

Just the perfect calm before the storm. 

When Theon volunteered to watch over Sansa and Bran at the tree, I thought to myself, "This man has abandoned SO MANY LOVED ONES."

[larapu2000]

2 hours ago, sumiregusa said:

You'll be hard pressed to find laws from hundreds and thousands of years ago that aren't sexist by today's standards. The point is back then? They weren't viewed that way.

What makes you think GOT exists in the world we live in, or in a time and era that isn't right now?  It's a fantasy show, so you don't get to view it through the lens of "oh, they don't have smartphones and modern weapons technology, so women deserve to be treated as less than their male counterparts."  We absolutely get to view it through a modern lens.  It was written with a modern lens.  It was filmed with a modern lens.  

And there are plenty of examples of cultures and societies in THIS world that valued women and where they were allowed an equal place at the table, from hundreds and thousands of years ago, so your entire premise is still pretty flawed even IF you considered it to be happening in our world.

[pezgirl7]

13 hours ago, Drogo said:

Ser Jorah is still all sex and devotion and honor dripping in garlic butter.  Why does no one love him again?

I LOVE HIM! 🙂

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The fact that so many people were uncomfortable seeing a 22 year old actress have a sex scene makes me all the more glad that they did it. Arya's not a little girl. She is an adult woman who chose to have sex. It's not icky or gross or inappropriate. Women are allowed to have sex and enjoy it. Funny how people were okay with Arya going to assassin school as a child and MURDERING PEOPLE but choosing to have sex the night before she might die is what's not cool.

Kind of futile to argue what people should or should not be squicked out about. It's all personal. For me, it was a bit uncomfortable to watch because I think she still looks like a child. So it was like watching a child trying to seduce a 30 year old man. I guess she's suppose to be 18 on the show, but I don't think she looks it. I also thought the nudity was unnecessary. They could have just filmed from the back, waist up, and we would have gotten the same jist of the scene. I do think GOT likes to show nudity just for the sake of nudity, and I was hoping that at least one of the main female characters could make it through the show without being raped or having to take their kit off.

Edited April 22, 2019 by pezgirl7

[Bryce Lynch]

25 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

I haven't put down Jon Snow.  I never elevated him to begin with.  I don't wish him harm and think he's a nice guy who means well.  I HATED his stepmother for her treatment of him.  Whatever she thought happened wasn't his fault.  He has been through a lot - including dying.  He's fought in battles.

BUT, he would have died in the battle for Winterfell because he was foolishly lured into abandoning his own battle plan in exactly the means his sister warned him he would be. He broke his vows on the KW and brought the Wildlings back with him and forced them down the throats of his men because he was sleeping with one of them which caused the resentment leading to his death.  He was HANDED the title of King in the North by his people who ignored his bastard status, including his sister, but he walked away from it without so much as a care because he had "bigger fish to fry".  Yes the dead coming south is a thing, but he will need the people he abandoned to fight with him. He caused Danerys to lose a dragon because she came in to save him from his foolish mission.  Now the KK has a dragon.  He nearly died again if not for Uncle Zombie Benjen saving him.  He "bent the knee" for the purpose of going down, and put his entire people back  under the subjugation of a monarch they don't know and who he only just met.  He returned to town with a chip on his shoulder, still badmouthing Sansa, who kept the Northern troops prepared to fight with him to the point that ARYA, of all people, had to defend her.  He allowed his dragon queen girlfriend to level a threat at his sister without so much as a word.  Jon is not a saint.  He is not a genius.  He is not a conquering hero.  He's the energizer bunny.  He's the little engine that could.  I like him just fine.  I wish him well. But I have never, NOT EVER, considered him to be a real player in the game for the throne.  Based on his actions or lack thereof. And now, in true deus ex machina fashion, though he's not concocted a single strategic plan that has helped a single person, the throne is his...cuz...you know... entitlement.

That is quite a negative campaign ad against Jon Snow.   As I said, I am Dany for Iron Throne 2019, but many of those complaints against him aren't really valid and in other cases Dany shared in them  or made similar mistakes.

Was Jon really supposed to let Ramsey kill his little brother and the heir to House Stark, without trying to save him?  Yes, it was a "dumb" move, but it was also the human move and the brave move.   You could argue Dany was just as "dumb" for risking her own life and losing a dragon to save the beyond the wall party.  Both of them tend to be recklessly  righteous, rather than pragmatic.  

He was given the title of KITN by the Nothern Lords, because he had earned their respect with his courage and leadership.  

He brought the Wildlings in because a) they needed them to help fight the dead rather than become part of the NK's army b) It was the right thing to do.  

Dany signed off on the stupid, bring a wight to Cersei plan, so she shares in that blunder.

He didn't "abandon" the people of the North.  He risked his life going to Dragonstone to try to get what he needed to save them, and succeeded, bringing back not only tons of dragon glass, but huge armies and and pair of dragons.  

He bent the knee because he believed Dany was worthy of his allegiance and the allegiance of the North.   It was a bad move politically, IMO, but Jon is not a politician.   

Dany made similar questionable political decisions.  Executing, her loyal friend and subject Mossodar was perhaps the "right" thing to do,  but it caused her loyal supporters who she had liberated to turn against her viciously.   Burning the Tarly's was also questionable.  

Cersei (as Sansa gently reminder her) also got conned by Cersei.   

Jon and Dany are really a lot alike.  The Seven Kingdoms could do a whole lot worse than having either of them as ruler.   Neither are perfect, but both put their people first.  

Edited April 22, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Great point, though it was Cersei who gave the order.  I don't think Joffrey ever knew he was not Robert's son, though he may have heard rumors.

Joffrey gave the order.  Cersei confirms it to Tyrion and gives him the amazing "lying on a bed of weeds ripping them out one by one before they strangle you in your sleep" speech.

[kieyra]

8 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

What makes you think GOT exists in the world we live in, or in a time and era that isn't right now?  It's a fantasy show, so you don't get to view it through the lens of "oh, they don't have smartphones and modern weapons technology, so women deserve to be treated as less than their male counterparts."  We absolutely get to view it through a modern lens.  It was written with a modern lens.  It was filmed with a modern lens.  

And there are plenty of examples of cultures and societies in THIS world that valued women and where they were allowed an equal place at the table, from hundreds and thousands of years ago, so your entire premise is still pretty flawed even IF you considered it to be happening in our world.

"But it wasn't like that back then" is my favorite GoT apologist argument. 🙂

[Drogo]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Jon and Dany are really a lot alike.  The Seven Kingdoms could do a whole lot worse than having either of them as ruler.   Neither are perfect, but both put their people first.  

"A just woman and an honorable man."  -Ser Davos of House Always Right About Everything

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

Does anyone feel enlightened about what the Night King wants?

Total nihilism. Ok. Then what? Will he self-destruct?

I mean, what's the POINT?

NK is old.  He just wanted the younguns to GTFO of his lawn

[scrb]

Arya was going to jump Gendry, whether he was willing or not.

If he said his number was like 35, maybe she'd have some pause.

[ctmd]

I felt like even though Dany questioned Jon's sources for the information about his lineage, that she also quickly accepted it, as it made her brother back into the person she knew/believed him to be- kind, loving, peaceful, a hopeless romantic- rather than a kidnapping rapist. So then she was left with "what does this mean now?" Just earlier this episode she had told Sansa that ALL she has focused on for the past several years was getting that throne, and now Sansa's brother is telling her something that to her means she can't have it! 

Ideally, if Jon is fine with the incest part, I think the best thing for them to do (after hopefully surviving the Night King) would be to marry, so they can BOTH have the iron throne. He'll be entitled to it by birth, and she'll be entitled to it by worth (as the show wants us to believe. as would Jon also, really, but we know he doesn't really want it). 

[Yodabeesh]

17 hours ago, Popples said:

The Florence and the Machine version of "Jenny of Oldstones". The song Pod was singing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTa1jHk1Lxc

Very cool article on the song. https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/21/18510272/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-2-jennys-song-jon-daenerys-targaryen-florence-the-machine

[newms]

I say the show lets all men die and women reign. Dany can rule the iron throne, Sansa the North with Brienne at her side. Arya can keep doing what she’s doing. Yara can rule the iron islands. Nymeria can continue to create her own wolf kingdom. Messendai can find her freedom in Essos. Lynanna Mormont can grow to become a great matriarch. 

Who needs the men? That would definitely be breaking the wheel. 

Cersei can still die. 

[Clanstarling]

50 minutes ago, BooBear said:

I think that is the problem and I see it as the reason everyone reacted badly to Arya and Gendry. Just not enough interaction to make the audience feel what they are supposed to be feeling, really too bad.  I feel like this show should have actually gone 12 seasons with 10 episodes each to really finish out the story. 

I had no problems with Arya and Gendry, I felt like they laid the foundation for this eventuality early in the series, and knew that however young she looked, Arya was of age and in charge.

I also have no problems with those who had issues with it. Speaks well of their basic decency. 

7 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

I LOVE HIM! 🙂

Kind of futile to argue what people should or should not be squicked out about. It's all personal. For me, it was a bit uncomfortable to watch because I think she still looks like a child. I also thought the nudity was unnecessary. They could have just filmed from the back, waist up, and we would have gotten the same jist of the scene. I do think GOT likes to show nudity just for the sake of nudity, and I was hoping that at least one of the main female characters could make it through the show without being raped or having to take their kit off.

GoT hasn't been particularly coy about nudity, and yet they did film her differently than most, it was not as revealing as most. 

[Bannon]

23 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

I LOVE HIM! 🙂

Kind of futile to argue what people should or should not be squicked out about. It's all personal. For me, it was a bit uncomfortable to watch because I think she still looks like a child. So it was like watching a child trying to seduce a 30 year old man. I guess she's suppose to be 18 on the show, but I don't think she looks it. I also thought the nudity was unnecessary. They could have just filmed from the back, waist up, and we would have gotten the same jist of the scene. I do think GOT likes to show nudity just for the sake of nudity, and I was hoping that at least one of the main female characters could make it through the show without being raped or having to take their kit off.

It's interesting how different perceptions are. To me, Arya now looks like a petite woman of about 18-20 years old. There is no doubt that she is emotionally mature enough to have sex in a healthy way.

[Timetoread]

23 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

But nobody was actively lying to her... His Father(uncle)  did... For all the right reasons.. But he still did.. And that caused his step-mother to hate him... He grew up thinking he was some whore's son and the only blemish on Honorable Ned Stark's record... His parents selfishly fell in love and helped kick off this war.... Every body has stuff going on.. Everyone has been thru trauma.. The AOTD is on the way.. But between those two this particular piece of info long-term is more impactful for Jon... Dany said it herself.. All this means to her is that there is (possibly)  another person with a claim on the throne.. For Jon it re-arranges damn near every relationship he has... His siblings are now his cousins... To the north he's now maybe a targaryen instead of a stark... 

Poor martyr Jon.  Nobody has ever suffered more.  Crown him quickly before he ascends full bodied into heaven.

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, newms said:

I say the show lets all men die and women reign. Dany can rule the iron throne, Sansa the North with Brienne at her side. Arya can keep doing what she’s doing. Yara can rule the iron islands. Nymeria can continue to create her own wolf kingdom. Messendai can find her freedom in Essos. Lynanna Mormont can grow to become a great matriarch. 

Who needs the men? That would definitely be breaking the wheel. 

Cersei can still die. 

I have a feeling the show runners are going for an ending similar to this. 

Plus Gilly becomes the wildling Lady of Highgarden 😄

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, scrb said:

Arya was going to jump Gendry, whether he was willing or not.

If he said his number was like 35, maybe she'd have some pause.

It wasn't clear to me if she was looking for a high number or a low number, or something in between.  I guess 3 was a pretty good one.  Not inexperienced but not a dog. :)

Based upon the expression on her face afterwards, maybe she should have jumped Pod, instead. :)

[Lady S.]

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

because gender is not the reason that his claim supersedes her. Jon would have greater claim even if he was a woman and Dany was a male because Jon is the trueborn child of the crown prince. Dany's place in the hierarchy would always be after Rheagar's children and any children they have. She's going to have to wrap her mind around the fact that not only is she not the only one with claim to the IT based on bloodline, but she doesn't even have the best claim. And Jon would certainly have an easier time getting the support of the North and their allies.

No, (s)he wouldn't. It's no accident there's never been a ruling queen on the Iron Throne, and it was established in s1 that uncles come before nieces in the royal line.

Quote

Sansa Stark: What if I only have girls?
Septa Mordane: I wouldn't worry about that.
Sansa Stark: Jeyne Poole's mother had five children, all of them girls.
Septa Mordane: Yes, but it's highly unlikely.
Sansa Stark: But what if?
Septa Mordane: If you only had girls, I suppose the throne would pass to Prince Joffrey's little brother.

Quote

LORAS: Do you know who should be King? (Both men exchange looks.)
RENLY: Be serious.
LORAS: I am. My father could be your bank. I've never fought in a war before, but I'd fight for you.
RENLY: I'm fourth in line. (4th meaning he's not counting Myrcella or Shireen.)

Dany put two male heirs ahead of herself in s1. First Viserys, then her own son. That's who she she and Drogo planned to take the throne for, with no mention of her own rights. It was only after Rhaego's death in the finale that she considered herself a queen. 

[Clanstarling]

I can see a dual monarchy. It could be right there in the series title. Dany is impervious to Fire, and Jon's survived death on the wall (ice). Not a perfect metaphor, but it came from the thought that we know Dany can survive fire, but can she survive ice? 

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It wasn't clear to me if she was looking for a high number or a low number, or something in between.  I guess 3 was a pretty good one.  Not inexperienced but not a dog. 🙂

Based upon the expression on her face afterwards, maybe she should have jumped Pod, instead. 🙂

I didn't associate her expression with her experience. But with thoughts of the upcoming battle. I mean, it could be regret that this one time may be all she'll get. And that it was a shame because it was great.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Clanstarling

[Bannon]

I also think it is worth noting that Williams and Turner have done a far better job, compared to most actors, of bridging adolescence to young adulthood in a very long running story. The age is so awkward that few actors do it well,  without somewhat distracting tics or affectations. Both of these actors, and whomever assisted them, directors, colleagues, or coaches, deserve a lot of credit.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Bannon

[Yodabeesh]

15 hours ago, Lemuria said:

The posts here have pretty much said a lot of what I would have said, so I'll just leave it at this:  This ep has now made me very reluctant to watch next week's ep.

I'm glad that the fighting did not start this episode. I am NOT mentally prepared for the blood bath. I'm pretty certain that anyone that's in the crypt will be slaughtered and turned into white walkers. Or they'll be cooked in there by dragon fire.

[MissLucas]

40 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Great point, though it was Cersei who gave the order.  I don't think Joffrey ever knew he was not Robert's son, though he may have heard rumors.

The bastards might have been a slight, unlikely threat to take the throne, but they were mainly the equivalent of DNA evidence proving Joffrey was a bastard and Stannis was the rightful heir.

No, it was Joffrey who ordered the bastard children being killed. This is one of the few atrocities Cersei did not commit (I think she did in the books though).

As for rules of royal succession both in-show and IRL -  to paraphrase POC they're more guidelines. They've been bent and contorted throughout history to match the claims of anyone who was powerful enough to claim the throne and force the scribe's hand. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

No, (s)he wouldn't. It's no accident there's never been a ruling queen on the Iron Throne, and it was established in s1 that uncles come before nieces in the royal line.

Dany put two male heirs ahead of herself in s1. First Viserys, then her own son. That's who she she and Drogo planned to take the throne for, with no mention of her own rights. It was only after Rhaego's death in the finale that she considered herself a queen. 

While  she loses to Jon in succession, based upon gender, I think even if she was a guy named Danny, she would still be behind Jon.   

Prince Harry's kids will always be behind Prince William's kids and their children, because William was firstborn.  

If Viserys had survived, he would be behind Jon and any children Jon has, in the line of succession as well, because Rhaegar was firstborn.     

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I had no problems with Arya and Gendry, I felt like they laid the foundation for this eventuality early in the series, and knew that however young she looked, Arya was of age and in charge.

Agreed.  I'd feel like a hypocrite if I complained about grown-ass murder-bucket-list-having Arya having sex now (with Gendry, who she chose) when I didn't complain about kittycat-loving emotionally-weak-sauce Tommen having sex 2 years ago (with Margaery, who was chosen for him.) 

We met them both when they were tiny people and both continued to have babyfaces throughout the seasons. 

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I can see a dual monarchy. It could be right there in the series title. Dany is impervious to Fire, and Jon's survived death on the wall (ice). Not a perfect metaphor, but it came from the thought that we know Dany can survive fire, but can she survive ice? 

I didn't associate her expression with her experience. But with thoughts of the upcoming battle. I mean, it could be regret that this one time may be all she'll get. And that it was a shame because it was great.

Yeah, a lot of people have said Arya looked disappointed, but I also thought she might just be thinking about the battle.   

[BooBear]

39 minutes ago, terrymct said:

If Dany truly wants to "break the wheel", Tyrion has made some noises in past seasons that sounded like he might think a limited form of democracy would be a good idea.

I still say it isn't fair to expect Dany to do anything right now about breaking the wheel. She has to gain control right now against people who aren't so democracy minded. That means a large show of power and perhaps, bully like tactics to obtain power. Once she has power she can make decisions. I already feel she is putting those things into place. She wanted to do something to Jamie but when faced with Sansa, Jon, Bran and Brianne ready to forgive Jamie, she read the room and let it go.  She has historically asked all her advisors about things and sometimes taken their advice and sometimes not.  Cersei? Nope.  I feel like she had ever reason to be surprised at Sansa wanting independence for the North. As far as I know that was never on the table and was too much ask for in meeting two with Dani. I feel that was a Sansa blunder. If I was Dani I might wonder if I was being taken advantage of. 

29 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Dany signed off on the stupid, bring a wight to Cersei plan, so she shares in that blunder.

I have always been willing to give her a pass on that. She really knows nothing about Cersei just meeting her at the Dragon pit. Both Jon and Tyrion know much more about Cersei and Dany's faith was in their judgment.  In fact, other's judgment seems to be most of the blunders of Dany's campaigns. 

On Arya and Gendry not looking happy after boning. I didn't take that as a comment on the sex but rather the sobering idea that the dead were coming and it could be their last sex after.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

Agreed.  I'd feel like a hypocrite if I complained about grown-ass murder-bucket-list-having Arya having sex now (with Gendry, who she chose) when I didn't complain about kittycat-loving emotionally-weak-sauce Tommen having sex 2 years ago (with Margaery, who was chosen for him.) 

We met them both when they were tiny people and both continued to have babyfaces throughout the seasons. 

But, we didn't watch Tommen grow up.  He was barely on the show until he became king.  Also, were there any graphic sex scenes with him?  

I think it wasn't so much Arya having sex that put people off, but Maise Williams, who we have watched grow up and probably perceive to be a lot younger than she really is, doing a nude scene.   

That doesn't mean there isn't a double standard IRL.  Just look at the difference in reactions when a female teacher has sex with an underage boy and when a male teacher has sex with an underage girl.  

The male teacher is rightfully treated as a rapist.  But, with the female teacher, a certain percentage of people think, "What a lucky kid that boy is."    

[LadyChaos]

35 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Of course he didn't consider how it would make her feel either.  HER whole life also being a lie.

How was she lied to her whole life?  She grew up her whole life knowing exactly who she was and what was expected of her.  No one lied to her about her father, Visarys and she chose not to believe the lies.  No one lied to her about her brother, because no one was alive that was near her, knew the truth.  Ser Barristan and Jorrah were the first people in her life that she met that gave her a true account of Rhaegar, because no one alive knew the truth. Even though Viserys abused her, she was still given respect from outsiders, and given a sense of entitlement based on her name, and family. She had to earn alot for herself, but honestly, if she had been nothing but another Kalessi she would have been in Dosh Kaleen as soon as Drogo took his last breath.  Because she was a Targ, she had another way. Because she was a targ, Quarth opened up to her, instead of slamming the doors. Her name, saved her life and her people long she was actually capable of doing.  Her world isn't rocked to the core with lies, that make her question who she was.  She, at her heart, always knew who she was. She won't care that she was sleeping with her nephew, hell she spent of her life believing she would marry her brother because thats what Targs do.

Jon was lied to his whole life, and raised as bastard.  He was always left feeling less than as he watched his family eat at the high table, watched on as they were treated with respect while he was treated like dirt because he was nothing but another high born's bastard.  He was nothing, he was worthless. He earned everything he had, and had to work 2x as hard to prove himself just because he was another bastard. Jon lived his whole life he was the worthless bastard that was a black mark on Saint Ned Stark's life.   Now he learns it was all a lie, to protect him none the less. He isn't a bastard, but of Royal blood.  Not just Royal blood, but the Heir to the Iron Throne.  That he is living proof that Roberts rebellion was started not out of outrage because of rape, but because he was angry that Lyanna loved someone else. Now he has to come to terms with the fact that he was lied to all his life by the man he admired more than anyone, that he is not a bastard, that he could rule a continent, that he is sleeping with his Aunt and he is in love with her.

24 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

But nobody was actively lying to her... His Father(uncle)  did... For all the right reasons.. But he still did.. And that caused his step-mother to hate him... He grew up thinking he was some whore's son and the only blemish on Honorable Ned Stark's record... His parents selfishly fell in love and helped kick off this war.... Every body has stuff going on.. Everyone has been thru trauma.. The AOTD is on the way.. But between those two this particular piece of info long-term is more impactful for Jon... Dany said it herself.. All this means to her is that there is (possibly)  another person with a claim on the throne.. For Jon it re-arranges damn near every relationship he has... His siblings are now his cousins... To the north he's now maybe a targaryen instead of a stark... 

This!

8 minutes ago, scrb said:

Arya was going to jump Gendry, whether he was willing or not.

If he said his number was like 35, maybe she'd have some pause.

But he didn't seem inclined to fight her off.... XD

7 minutes ago, ctmd said:

I felt like even though Dany questioned Jon's sources for the information about his lineage, that she also quickly accepted it, as it made her brother back into the person she knew/believed him to be- kind, loving, peaceful, a hopeless romantic- rather than a kidnapping rapist. So then she was left with "what does this mean now?" Just earlier this episode she had told Sansa that ALL she has focused on for the past several years was getting that throne, and now Sansa's brother is telling her something that to her means she can't have it! 

Ideally, if Jon is fine with the incest part, I think the best thing for them to do (after hopefully surviving the Night King) would be to marry, so they can BOTH have the iron throne. He'll be entitled to it by birth, and she'll be entitled to it by worth (as the show wants us to believe. as would Jon also, really, but we know he doesn't really want it). 

It would be idly suited if they co-rule, I agree.  I think that Dany is preggo, and that Jon will propose when they find out but I don't think they will get married.  I still think that Dany will die somehow.  If She doesn't, and they do marry and co-rule, I somehow think they will not be a happily ever after married couple.

Personally, I am interested in this next stage, where Dany has to decide who she is, without the throne.  As she said to Sansa, she spent her whole life being told she would be Queen. Whether it was her brother who planned to take the throne back, and her by his side as Queen.  Then, Drogo was going to take the throne, and she was going to be by his side as Queen.  After he died, she was going to take it for herself as Queen. Regardless, all her life she was told she would be Queen.  The Iron throne was the only goal, in her life, she has ever known.  Now, that she knows that Jon is the rightful heir and that he could(for arguments sake) marry someone else, and she might not be the Queen or his Queen..... who is she?

Who is Dany without the throne?  Does she really want the throne, or was it just something so ingrained in her as a Targ, that she felt she needed to take it back to honor her family since she was the last one? If she is not sitting on the throne, what will she do? What is her purpose?   I want to see her think about these things.  

[AshleyN]

Just want to point out, since it's apparently "dump on Jon" day again that he's basically the only reason Westeros has a chance to survive the White Walker apocalypse. That he's the only major character in the series to consistently put the good of the realm ahead of his own desires, his own (incredibly justified) grudges, or ancient prejudices. That he pulled off the most impressive act of diplomacy in the series in convincing the Wildlings to ally with the Night's Watch, a group they've been in a constant state of conflict in for literally thousands of years. That he convinced Dany to (temporarily at least) abandon her single-minded focus on capturing the throne to come help fight for the North. That the only remotely democratic institution we've seen in this series elected him to be their leader.

I get that Jon is the closest thing this show has to to a traditional hero and that he's basically the only male contender among a bunch of women, which is a turnoff for people who look to this show to break conventions. And honestly, I'm not even sure myself if he'd be the best person to rule. But the narrative that he's incompetent or useless or that he's undeserving of any of the success he's had is tiresome, and honestly, pretty lazy. The dude has flaws, obviously, but so does every single character on the series. To me, the central theme of the series is less about how one should go about ruling, than the fact that ruling is HARD and that there's no one perfect way to do it. Sure, Sansa has done a good job managing the details as Lady of Winterfell, but Jon is the one with the ability to see the big picture, while Dany has the iron will to get the job done no matter lousy the odds. All of these traits are important.

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

Apparently-UO:  I love Kit Harrington and Emilia Clarke together, and I think their chemistry is not only existent but palpable.  They certainly make a handsome pair, and I've seen facial expressions in the last 2 episodes I've never seen from either before.

They won't be the giddy lovers we saw them be with Ygritte and Drogo because that was a long time ago: they're mostly solemn characters, we've barely seen them alone together, and nowadays they have quite a bit on their minds, a lot of responsibility between them.  But for what they are at this time, new lovers with a lot of opposition and family baggage?  They're hot.

I thought they had a really nice chemistry last year, and that Emilia's acting showing Dany slowly and subtly falling for Jon was the best work she's done since Season 1. I haven't really been feeling it so much this year though. Obviously this episode was always going to be awkward city, but even the waterfall excursion was rather flat to me. Maybe it's because I was kind of shocked that they'd blow past Jon being able to ride a dragon, which I thought would be a huge deal, in such a nonchalent way.

[Lady S.]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Prince Harry's kids will always be behind Prince William's kids and their children, because William was firstborn.  

Those are modern terms of succession and it took centuries for them to be solidified. By the time Mary and Elizabeth Tudor came to the throne it was because there really were no male options left and they didn't have the French law barring all women and children of a female line in favor of distant male cousins. Hell, in the early years of the Normans/Angevins, adult brothers coming behind underage sons was hardly a settled rule either.

[Wulfsige]

Dany: I suppose you're going to seize the Iron Throne now. 

Jon: Oh hell, no! Only a batshit crazy person would want that fugly symbol and all the corruption that comes along with it...cough...I mean, no, dear.   

Wouldn't it be funny if Dany, Arya, Gilly, and Cersei were all preggers?

Did anyone else wonder if Arya had some other motive for sex with Gendry, shortly after finding out he's a Baratheon? Like maybe she's planning to be the mother of a potential heir to the throne? (I don't seriously think so, but it crossed my mind. I didn't buy the 'sex because we're all going to die tomorrow', because I don't think Arya believes for a moment that she's going to die.) 

[Yodabeesh]

14 hours ago, EverettO said:

Early prediction... next week’s episode is all about King’s Landing because the producers are THAT CRUEL! 

You're absolutely right. No Cersei this episode. Ugh. 

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, BooBear said:

have always been willing to give her a pass on that. She really knows nothing about Cersei just meeting her at the Dragon pit. Both Jon and Tyrion know much more about Cersei and Dany's faith was in their judgment.

Exactly. That was the whole reason she chose Tyrion to stick around in season 5. He literally pleaded his case to her based on the fact that he hates his sister and knows the Lannister’s. She chose him as her hand because he knows Westeros and she trusted that he would be vital to helping her. In fact, he has been detrimental and all his advice and tactics have failed and his judgements have been completely  wrong. Except when it came to Jon. Her one major victory was when she followed her own instincts, tempered by Jon’s advice. Faulting her for trusting Cersei’s word when her Hand, Cersei’s twin brother was fooled, is not fair.  She doesn’t know Cersei at all. She’s been extremely forgiving actually all things considered. 

[Kate47]

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Dany is currently acting in total alignment with what’s called the Shadow King archetype. She is insecure in her power because she is not centered (one sign of this is her absolute refusal to actually answer any questions about how she intends to rule once she has the throne... likely because she doesn’t know herself. She’s been so focused on getting the throne that I don’t think she’s thought beyond platitudes like “break the wheel” on what happens afterwards).

Because they are insecure in their power, the Shadow King focuses on outward displays of power... fly-bys with her dragons, piling on titles, wanting everyone to respect and love from everyone.

And how could Dany really be secure at this point? She’s the stranger in a land she’s never set foot in until a few months ago. She’s not the beloved liberator here; she’s the last of a line of conquerors whose last days in power were remembered for the war and strife they brought. And things have not gone at all as she planned or expected; she lost both her main Westerosi allies, her fleet, and was outmaneuvered by Cersei in the attack on Casterly Rock. She lost a dragon to an enemy she didn’t even know existed and then Cersei outplayed her again with her false promises of support and the North still wanting independence once this all over.

If her endgame is to rule the Seven Kingdoms, she must gain that center and grow past the need for the outward displays of authority and become a True “King.” She needs to outgrow the need for the trappings of rulership.

The surest sign of her growth in that direction would be destroying the Iron Throne (the physical trapping of rulership) for the good of the people. It would be a sign that she’s learned a true queen is a queen regardless of where she sits. Thd throne is just a symbol, not the source, of leadership.

Her greatest danger is that her insecurity will cause her to double down on outward displays of power by resorting to raw force to get her way as she did with the Tarleys who refused to kneel. That way is the path of the Tyrant whereas the proper King archetype unites people by their example and by focusing on the needs of their people.

As much as anything this episode set up a test for Dany in the next about whether she will grow into the “King” role or remain a “Shadow King.” She has been presented with a point of insecurity with Sansa (both still wanting independence and because Sansa has advisors she trusts absolutely and people willing to fight and die for her) and with Jon’s revelation of his true parentage making her claim to the Iron Throne far less secure... and knowing one of the primary sources for his claim will be sitting right in the Godswood (and the documentation is probably in the library of Winterfell where Sam keeps his books).

The test? Does she use the cover of battle to eliminate her sources of insecurity with violence (i.e. remain the Shadow King) or does she put the needs of the people she intends to rule first by focusing on the battle against the dead (which will do a lot on its own to remove much of the insecurity people have towards her on its own) and then deal with the points of insecurity presented as a proper ruler would?

That’s Dany’s REAL challenge next episode... the battle with death itself is just the pressure point for driving action based on everyone’s true nature. That’s why Dany had to know before the battle... because it’s going to require her to go with her gut and not her head and in so doing, reveal her true character (as will be the case for everyone in the heat of the coming battle... they’re all going to have to act without time to ponder and so we’ll see all their true natures come to the fore).

This is a really interesting post. I wanted to ask if her dragons would also be considered a symbol of her authority, and if she needs to give them up as well.

[dirtypop90]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think that was made more apparent in the second episode when we saw characters who are not "in love" the way they keep saying Jon and Dany are but who have crackling screen chemistry. 

A good example: Dany and Jorah. They're not "in love." They haven't spent any time together since season 6. But the minute they are onscreen together you can see the concern flood over Dany's face and I'm reminded of the time Dany was crying when she found out Sir Jorah had greyscale and she said "You WILL be cured and you WILL come back to me." Those were real, heartfelt tears. 

Dany and Jon don't have anywhere near that level of chemistry for us to be really invested in this love story. And you're right, the writing is a lot of telling and not showing. Whereas with characters who do have that kind of chemistry there's little need to tell. It's all just there.

And people keep saying we can't expect Jon and Dany to have the same chemistry as Jon and Ygritte but frankly Jon has more chemistry with even Sansa and that is a platonic relationship.  Sansa/Theon, another platonic ship, has it.  Jaime/Brienne and they haven't touched. There's just no energy in Jon/Dany scenes to back up the claims of them being in love, imo. 

[BitterApple]

Taking a different tack for a moment, this was clearly a "farewell" episode where we got one last chance to connect with characters we love before they start dying next week.

I'm curious to see, which scene/interaction was the most emotional for everyone?

There's so much to choose from, but for me it was Sansa and Theon eating together at the end. Such a simple thing, sharing a meal, but the mutual understanding and bond that was forged through surviving Ramsay just kicked me right in the feels. My second choice is Brienne being knighted.

[shockermolar]

1 hour ago, larapu2000 said:

What makes you think GOT exists in the world we live in, or in a time and era that isn't right now?  It's a fantasy show, so you don't get to view it through the lens of "oh, they don't have smartphones and modern weapons technology, so women deserve to be treated as less than their male counterparts."  We absolutely get to view it through a modern lens.  It was written with a modern lens.  It was filmed with a modern lens.  

And there are plenty of examples of cultures and societies in THIS world that valued women and where they were allowed an equal place at the table, from hundreds and thousands of years ago, so your entire premise is still pretty flawed even IF you considered it to be happening in our world.

I think we can only view it through the lens in which it was presented. And I think that it’s been made clear throughout the various seasons that how women are viewed in the created Westeros of GoT can vary, and that it has changed within its own timeline, but that it is essentially a male-dominated and ruled society. By that I mean, a woman being the head of a house and swearing fealty happens but only under extreme conditions (Mormonts), or a woman can be the actual ruler of a house even though she’s not the titular head (Tyrells), or the regent for an underage head (Aryn), or even a kingdom (Baratheon/Lannister), however the death of the monarch defaults to primogeniture (Robert>Joffrey>Tommen – skipping Myrcella, whose only value is as a marital asset) and the perception/reality of legitimacy does the same (Robert>Stannis>Renly – skipping the reality that Cersei’s children are bastards). There are places and cultures where women can be warriors now (Dorne, wildlings) but we also know that while it was previously not uncommon for this (the original trio of Targaryens included two dragon-riding warrior sisters) seeing it in Westeros is an anomaly (Brienne as a knight, a young Arya having to call her fencing master her dancing master) at THIS point in the timeline 300 years down the road.  We also know that it’s entirely possible for a man to set aside a wife for a new one (Elia is out, Lyanna is in), for a woman to passed along from one dead man to his brother to maintain strategic alliances (Margery Tyrell and Catelyn Tully) whether married or just betrothed, and for women to be given and taken away as prizes (Lolly whatever her name was to Bronn).  

We are also now aware that Jon is the only surviving son of the oldest son of the mad king (and I could be wrong, Rhaegar may not have been the oldest but if there were any older they are now dead regardless), with Dany being only the youngest daughter of the mad king. To put that into perspective, had Viserys not been killed by Drogo and he and Dany had made it to Westeros together, AND the true parentage and legitimate status of Jon been made public, JON would still stand to inherit before Viserys even though he is a grandson and Viserys is a son.

The thing is GoT is not THIS world, whether historical or present day. It is its own world and the writers have done a pretty specific job in showing what that world is.  It’s at heart a misogynistic society where women are not viewed as having an innate right to rule if there is a viable male candidate in their stead. However Jon is viewed, within the specific world creation that we are handed as viewers, his right to the throne supersedes Dany's.  Of course, that world as we have been shown, is being turned on its head in many different ways and on many different fronts. It doesn't HAVE to be like that, but that too is within the scope of what we are being shown, totally without any kind of outside perception of our own universe's reality now or previously.

[Growsonwalls]

1 minute ago, dirtypop90 said:

And people keep saying we can't expect Jon and Dany to have the same chemistry as Jon and Ygritte but frankly Jon has more chemistry with even Sansa and that is a platonic relationship.  Sansa/Theon, another platonic ship, has it.  Jaime/Brienne and they haven't touched. There's just no energy in Jon/Dany scenes to back up the claims of them being in love, imo. 

Agree about Sansa/Theon, Jaime/Brienne. Other platonic relationships that have/had tons of chemistry:

Tyrion/Jaime

Tyrion/Varys 

Arya/Tywin

Arya/Hound

Cersei/Olenna

[meep.meep]

5 hours ago, Drogo said:

Planning for this to outsell Elf on a Shelf come Christmas 2019.

No love for Lannister on the bannister?

I loved Sam reminding everyone that he was the one who actually killed a White Walker.

Why can't the great history-of-man repository look back in time and find out what people did then to defend against the White Walkers?  What good is having a three-eyed-raven if he just mumbles semi-prophetic mumbo jumbo?

[LadyChaos]

25 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

No, (s)he wouldn't. It's no accident there's never been a ruling queen on the Iron Throne, and it was established in s1 that uncles come before nieces in the royal line.

Dany put two male heirs ahead of herself in s1. First Viserys, then her own son. That's who she she and Drogo planned to take the throne for, with no mention of her own rights. It was only after Rhaego's death in the finale that she considered herself a queen. 

You point is still moot because Jon still is ahead of her in line of succession, regardless of sex.

let's give a little education to everyone that thinks that Danerys claim to the throne is stronger than Jon.

1) Forget gender, sucession works like this:

Current ruler: A

A has 4 legitimate children, in order they are called B,C,D, and E.

B, because they are the first born, they are first in line in succession.  So if A, dies today, they succeed to the throne.  Siblings C,D,and E are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in line for the throne, and only can take the throne if all ahead of them in line of succession dies.

Now A is not dead, but B marries and has 4 children of their own; F, G, H, and I.  Now all of B's children succeed C,D, and E's claim to the throne.  Since B is the first born of A and 1st in line for the throne, so would their first born be 2nd in line for the throne. G,H, and I are 3rd, 4th, and fifth respectively.

Now A is still ruler, B is first in line for the throne, and F 2nd in line for the throne. So if A still rules, and somehow B dies, F is now second in line for the throne.  

Line of succession is always First born from first born from first born.  Line of succession doesn't care who if more fitting of the throne, the title, the lands..... it doesn't matter.  Line of Succession dictates that of King Aerys children: Rhaegar, Viserys, and Danerys, Rhaegar is first born.  So any children Rhaegar has, supersedes Danerys right to the throne, regardless of whether she is male or female. 

2)Gender doesn't always exclude someone from the throne.  Queen Victoria succeeded to the throne because her Uncle King William IV had no legitimate children, and she was the only surviving child left of his 3 brothers behind him. If she died before producing an heir, the next in line was actually the 5th and last of the 5 brothers.  Not to mention that Queen Elizabeth I and II are both examples of succession falling on a woman.

So, if Rhaegar died and all his children had died, as everyone thought. Then Viserys was the rightful heir to the throne, then his children behind him. However, he died without producing children, that we know of and at the very least are not legitimate.  So, Danerys, boy or girl, would then be in line for the throne. 

So.....Jon's succession is not about who has the 'right' genitalia or who is more most worthy.  It's simply a matter of who was born from whom.