S08.E02: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

[Growsonwalls]

4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Can Arya really be so dense to not remember The Hound was protecting her last she saw him?  Protecting her to his presumed death?

I didn't see Arya's interactions with Hound as hostile. They don't necessarily like each other but they are comfortable with each other. Arya just wanted a booty call. Gendry's bod >>>> Hound's. Not much more to it than that.

[AnnaL]

25 minutes ago, Hava said:

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but neither Jaime nor Brienne have been characters I've warmed to, so many of the moments that resonated with others did not resonate with me.  

BUT, the Theon and Sansa moment was unexpectedly the most emotional moment of the episode for me! Such a beautiful reunion. I've always liked Theon even if I was disappointed by his actions. Seeing him back in his true home just feels so right.

How old is Arya supposed to be? I felt uncomfortable with the sex scene. 

I like the fact that Theon will get his redemption. 

I do not see Theon and Sansa as a couple, I see them more like best friends, survivors of a uniquely traumatic experience. As others have suggested maybe it is because Theon is safe territory and Sansa feels safe around him. That scene was just amazing. 

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, Growsonwalls said:

I didn't see Arya's interactions with Hound as hostile. They don't necessarily like each other but they are comfortable with each other. Arya just wanted a booty call. Gendry's bod >>>> Hound's. Not much more to it than that.

She asked him when the last time was that he fought for "anyone besides himself." 

I can't remember a time he ever fought for himself.  Maybe his trial by combat with the BwoB, but his hand was a bit forced there- otherwise his combat experience has mostly been in service of others. 

[aprilbabe]

Brienne was so proud when she was knighted, She better not die.

Am I the only one who doesn't see Danerys as having mad queen tendencies. People keep saying it, but I don't see it. Her reactions are just regular human reaction.  She can't ever be angry or ambitious without people claiming shes "Mad"

Neither Dany nor JON, have mentioned the incest. And I doubt the will be made of a big deal of. I think the problems viewers are having are putting 2019 moral and what's acceptable on Medival Westeros. I think only the immediate family is considered incest.

[GodsBeloved]

40 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Her moment with Theon was VERY surprising and I don't know why.  Sansa doesn't often seem to let herself feel emotion these days.  Theon had a hard time keeping his eyes off Sansa when addressing Dany.

And Sansa spending what could be her last night alive with Theon while Winterfell was preparing for battle.   She looked so warm and soft, not something she lets herself show these days.  Not even with other Starks really.  I guess surviving Ramsay creates something truly unique.

I absolutely love when Theon turned to Sansa and said he wanted to fight for Winterfell, if she's let him.

Theon made a huge misstep when he went home and let his father turn him but now he is loyal to Sansa and the Starks. I love that.

[dramachick]

Yay for Arya and Gendry! I thought them hooking up was completely organic to the story and the characters. Gendry was Arya's first crush, and she's not a little girl anymore. She's going out the way I would want to. 😉

Yay for Sansa! I loved how Sansa made it clear that she was repping the independent north no matter who Jon was sleeping with. She will never mentally bend the knee.

I had to laugh out loud at Jorah trying to to tell Lady Mormont to stay in the crypt with the other kids.

I don't even like Jaime, but I loved how Brienne stood up for him and let everybody know that he lost his hand defending her. Even I have to give it up for him.

This battle is going to hurt me so much!

[Brn2bwild]

I feel like this was missing a scene with just the Starks, affirming that they love each other and have each other's backs.  Then maybe Jon could get emotional and leave for the crypts and...

There were so many scenes of other people talking about how they were fighting for Winterfell, but not the holders of Winterfell themselves?

[dirtypop90]

One good thing...no last Stark conversation.

We got a lot Brienne/Jaime and Jaime/Tyrion, Ser Jorah/Dany and Jorah with Lady Mormont, Grey Worm/Missandei, Theon/Sansa but NO Jon/Sansa and No Jon/Arya and no Sansa/Arya.  Not that I thought they would die next ep., but I like the confirmation it will not happen.

@Brn2bwild we posted at the same time! I think it's a good sign.

Edited April 22, 2019 by dirtypop90

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

 I'm amazed that so many people prefer lies and deception to the truth.

Pretty broad statement, I think.

I'm okay with Jon telling her, I just didn't think right before they're heading into the literal battle of their lives was the time to do it. He didn't have to lie in that moment, he could've simply not responded to her statement. As far Dany wanting one last roll in the hay before the war begins, he could've deflected. I'm sure she would've had no problem feigning a headache if the situation were reversed.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Joimiaroxeu

[GodsBeloved]

Did the little scared face girl remind Davos of Shireen?

[Growsonwalls]

One thing that distracted me: I know Emilia Clarke actually has very short brown hair in real life and thus needs to wear the wigs but anyone think Dany's wig was just ... not a "night before the battle that will probably kill us all" hairdo? All the other women of the North have very simply hairstyles. How is Dany having the time to curl her hair in that elaborate shape? It kind of reminds me of how Duchess Kate left the hospital after childbirth wearing heels, a designer dress, and hair extensions in addition to her blowout. An odd optics for such a momentous occasion. 

[Jaded Sapphire]

10 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Can Arya really be so dense to not remember The Hound was protecting her last she saw him?  Protecting her to his presumed death?

Seriously! I yelled at my screen when she asked that dumb question.

Speaking of, my SO and I have this habit of yelling 'Dead' at the screen whenever characters really hit us in the feels, especially on a show like this where it's possible for them to die.

For instance:

Theon hugs Sansa - "Dead"

Grey Worm kisses Missandei - "Super Dead"

Brienne gets knighted - "Sir Dead of House Deadington" 

[tennisgurl]

Well, it took awhile, but Robert finally got his B/S hookup! And hoooooo boy did we get that hook up!

[Conan Troutman]

24 minutes ago, LilaFowler said:

Dany's whole thing has been that she's the last Targ and the rightful heir. Not sure why Jon chose that moment to inform her that he's her competition. Let's face it, he's never been smart. Bless his heart.

As someone said in the book thread, the NK's arrival forces Dany to deal with other stuff first and process this news along the way. Jon probably didn't intend it that way (although he probably also expected her to take it a bit better I guess), but it's probably a good thing Dany got interrupted before she could say something that's hard to take back. 

5 minutes ago, Popples said:

I think it's the fur. I remember Pixar talking about how difficult it is to make any type of hair in CGI. But, yeah it's odd that they can make fictional animals look so great, but ones based on real animals don't look right.

It's definitely the fur. I think they have to animate a lot of individual hairs to make it look right, especially when there's movement and that costs a lot of time and money. 

I think it's perfectly logical that fictional animals look better - we just don't have a picture of a real dragon in our head to compare it to. 

[Growsonwalls]

Well ... Gendry and Arya kind of proved this point:

[RedHawk]

4 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Did the little scared face girl remind Davos of Shireen?

Yes, definitely. 

[steelyis]

Just now, aprilbabe said:

Neither Dany nor JON, have mentioned the incest. And I doubt the will be made of a big deal of. I think the problems viewers are having are putting 2019 moral and what's acceptable on Medival Westeros. I think only the immediate family is considered incest.

I think a lot of people in Westeros care about incest. It might not be a jail-able or capital offense, but it seems like the practice is at least frowned upon. And despite his bloodline Jon was raised a Stark; I don't imagine Ned and Cat raised their children to hand wave incest.

[Nanrad]

3 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

I knew they were going to end with Jon dropping the Targaryen bomb. I told ya Dany would be more concerned about being usurped than incest.

Didn't see Arya jumping Gendry though. The fan service was strong in this one.

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Dany has only just had the truth bomb dropped on her. She's barely had time to absorb this before the big battle began. Of course she'd look upset. So let's just see how it goes before we start making jokes about having Jon killed. Give her some credit, she really and sincerely adores Jon. That's not going to just evaporate.

Exactly. She flat out told Sansa that she loved Jon and was fighting this battle FOR HIM. Dany isn't Cersei and has never shown herself to betray the people she loves for her own goals. Even finding out this news, she tried to process it and doesn't go "mad." 

2 hours ago, steelyis said:

Yeah, but Jon's feelings about the incest wasn't even on Dany's radar.

I'm confused. Should his feelings about incest be on her radar? It's normal to her. Even then, the Stark side has practiced incest, but not to the same extent as the Targaryens. Jon has made peace with the fact that he boned his aunt because the WW has always been his number one priority since he found out about them.

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

What is the point in not telling her now?  It's not going to hurt any less or be any less of a shock if he waited; in fact the longer he sat on that information before telling her the more negative her reaction might be.  Jon is a straight shooter.  Dany knows that.  Face it, no one whose been living under the assumption that they're the last one, the only one, the special one is going to receive the news that they aren't gracefully.  It will be interesting to see what happens going forward.  Dany may be stunned, but I really can't imagine her going crazy and trying to do Jon harm.  But we'll have to wait and see, won't we?

Personal story: when my father died, my sister found out that she wasn't his first daughter. Her claim to fame in our family (lol) on my mom's side was her being the first girl--first daughter of my parents and first granddaughter/niece in the family. Our family had like 6 boys in the span of 18 years before she was born. For a few months, she was bitter that our other older sister take that title from her regarding our father. She's over it now. Dany has spent literal years thinking she was the last living Targaryen--she needs a moment to process the information, especially from her the man she's falling madly in love with.

Aimingforyoko, I didn't really see Arya and Gendry as fan service because we don't know how the rest of the plot is supposed to play out. We don't know their story--it could be, but we won't know until the end.

---

Tormund is SO head over heels in love with Brienne. That Wildling culture has him at a disadvantage when it comes to Brienne. Poor guy. Then he indirectly gave Jamie the idea to knight her and was so proud when it happened. Why can't they be poly? lol.

It's definitely unusual to Brienne to have someone so direct about their attraction to her, esp because, when it was, it was played as a joke in the past. Tormund instantly wanted to see her after he greeted Jon. Poor schmuck. lol

Arya and Gendry didn't squick me out, but I knew others would feel that way. I thought the scene would be heavily implied tho. I also don't think Arya used Gendry for the wrong reason, she used him for complicated reasons. As I said in the previous episode, Arya has always been attracted to Gendry sexually and emotionally. She's not the sentimental type, so she isn't going to talk about being together, especially when no one is sure anyone will survive. But, she trusted him enough to have her first sexual experience with him because it wasn't just about knowing what it was like.

But, MAN, these two fools are really digging each other. Arya was eyeing him during the forage scene and Gendry was turned on when she threw them knives! I was dying! Anyone else would be terrified of Arya when she threw the knives, like she guy the threw it near, but Gendry instantly perked up as if she was explicitly flirting with him (which she was!).

Edited April 22, 2019 by Nanrad
missed a quote

[DrSpaceman]

5 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Did the little scared face girl remind Davos of Shireen?

Pretty sure that was what the show was going for

[rmontro]

52 minutes ago, steelyis said:

I fully expected Dany to deny it was true, but I did not expect her to jump three hundred miles over the incest part of her and Jon's relationship and be all about who gets the crown. What's a little incest compared to the Iron Throne, right?

I actually would have thought it out of character for Dany to be upset about the incest (which isn't to say they won't bring it up).  Targaryens do not think laws of incest apply to them.  She has even said that she grew up expecting to marry her brother (Viserys).  He wasn't a true dragon though  😉

Apparently her first thought was that it was a plot to betray her.  She said that gives Jon a claim to the Iron Throne, but what she didn't say was that Jon had a better claim.  It might be hard for him to prove it though, and he looks more Stark than Targaryen.

All unimportant considering the events at hand though.  Same with Sansa's concerns about the North.  Can't all this stuff wait until after the zombie apocalypse?  I noticed the previews were more vague than usual, not surprising.  Four more episodes to go.  I'm almost not even looking forward to them, because I'm sure there's some heartbreak ahead.  Almost.

[tennisgurl]

Tormund: "Yeah, I once killed this giant, than got all up in there with his wife, then I sucked milk from her tits for three months. Its how I got all strong. Thats just science."

*Chugs booze while spilling profusely*

Tyrion: "..."

Jaimie: "..."

Brienne: "..."

Davos: "...so about that drink..."

[ShellsandCheese]

I'm totes confused about this North independence business. Weren't they under the rule of the Targs for at least 300 years and then under the rule of Robert Baratheon until Robb was declared King in the North. They haven't really been independent for the last three odd centuries. Were things that bad under the Targ rule? Or under Robert? 

[SimoneS]

On 4/22/2019 at 4:08 AM, steelyis said:

I think a lot of people in Westeros care about incest. It might not be a jail-able or capital offense, but it seems like the practice is at least frowned upon. And despite his bloodline Jon was raised a Stark; I don't imagine Ned and Cat raised their children to hand wave incest.

You are wrong.

Spoiler

There is a lot of incest in the Stark family.

[The Companion]

Sir Brienne! I loved that she got knighted so much. Also, her face when Tormund told the Giantsbane story almost killed me. 

I have to admit I am giggling a bit about everyone being squicked out about Arya having sex. I feel like your first couple of homicides really mature you. I am not generally a shipper but I admit I thought it was a sweet moment. I actually really enjoyed all of their interaction. 

Oh, Lady Mormont, you are a delight. Please don't get murdered next week.

Meanwhile, Greyworm and/or Missandei: totally doomed. Making adorable plans for the future? Come on guys.

I really enjoyed the scene where they were trying to figure out what to do with Jamie. Daenerys listened to Sansa, and they collectively discussed/advised. I also enjoyed the common ground scene between Sansa and Daenerys. Sure, nothing was resolved and there is a remaining issue that really can't be at the moment, but it was nice to see the two come together and I would like to see more of it. 

I enjoyed Tyrion and Jamie. I also enjoyed Sir Jorah's point about making mistakes and learning from them. 

There was this building tension in the episode. You know something terrible is coming. I don't know if I will be ready next week.

[Nanrad]

8 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well ... Gendry and Arya kind of proved this point:

How?

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, Leroux said:

I don't think that Sansa has ever talked about what happened to her while she was married to Ramsey, not even Jon or Aya. Bran might have a hint but he will never say it. They probably know it was bad but not how bad. 

The only one who could possibly understand what a nightmare that was is Theon, Theon knows what Sansa went thru and Sansa knows what Theon went thru. at that  moment when they hugged as I was crying all, I could think was "Damn you Ramsey, why did you have to cut Theon off, he would have been perfect for Sansa" 

This only means poor Theon is destined for death 😞 

Plus Theon was eye witness to one of Sansa's most humiliating moments when Ramsey raped her.

Something that always stuck out to me was how paralyzed Theon was because of what Ramsey did to him but when it came down to it, he found the strength to save Sansa. He was even willing to go back to Ramsey so Sansa could escape and I don't think she will ever forget that.

Edited April 22, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[aprilbabe]

5 minutes ago, steelyis said:

I think a lot of people in Westeros care about incest. It might not be a jail-able or capital offense, but it seems like the practice is at least frowned upon. And despite his bloodline Jon was raised a Stark; I don't imagine Ned and Cat raised their children to hand wave incest.

First cousins isn't considered incest in Westeros. We don't know how they view avuncular marriage as its never been brought up, til now.

[AnnaL]

 

 

1

12 minutes ago, dramachick said:

Yay for Arya and Gendry! I thought them hooking up was completely organic to the story and the characters. Gendry was Arya's first crush, and she's not a little girl anymore. She's going out the way I would want to. 😉

Yay for Sansa! I loved how Sansa made it clear that she was repping the independent north no matter who Jon was sleeping with. She will never mentally bend the knee.

I had to laugh out loud at Jorah trying to to tell Lady Mormont to stay in the crypt with the other kids.

I don't even like Jaime, but I loved how Brienne stood up for him and let everybody know that he lost his hand defending her. Even I have to give it up for him.

This battle is going to hurt me so much!

I loved that scene, I liked that they were able to smooth some hard edges but I absolutely loved the fact that Sansa, true to form, asked the hard questions and let Daenerys know that her first and foremost concern was for her people. 

I also liked that part and how it was enough for Sansa that Brienne vouched for him, Sansa is 100% loyal to those that are loyal to House Stark and Winterfell. 

[GodsBeloved]

55 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Grey Worm and Missandei making plans for a future that they hope to have.  

These 2 need a prayer circle

[CletusMusashi]

I love this episode, but I do have to take a moment out of my second viewing to say that I laugh out loud every time I see Gendry bashing pieces of obsidian with a hammer. Because... glass is the same thing as iron, apparently.

[LadyChaos]

I LOVED everything about this episode, even Sansa!

A few things going forward from here:

 I think that Jaime will die in Brienne's arms, and say 'this is the death I always wanted' (dying in the arms of the woman he loved).

I think Bran will die in the next episode.

I think that Gendry and Arya will live. I've been calling them together since s2, so happy to see that Arya got some (she is 18 after all) and on her own terms.  She didn't let Gendry be all 'but your a highborn lady' about it'

I think that IF Tyrion does turn traitor, after this episode, it will be because he thinks it will be the only way to save his own neck. 

Some, thoughts where thrown about in my house, that maybe Dany might choose Sansa to be her new hand.  I thought that scene between between the two of them, was very well done and showed some give and take on both sides.  

All and all....I loved this ep very much, and have no complaints........ so in 803, I'll likely want to rip my own heart out as I drown in my tears.

[Growsonwalls]

7 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

How?

Well ... you know ... men and women no matter how "non-sexy" their relationship may seem ... the sex is always "out there" as Harry puts it ...

[RandomWatcher]

Jon's likely reaction to finding out about Arya and Gendry

[Kate47]

Honestly, once things get hashed out between Jon and Dany, I don't see it changing much. Dany has always been about that title, and Jon doesn't much care for it. If he hadn't been a Targ, she would have taken him as consort, given him Warden of the North, and demanded his respect as his queen.

Now that she knows, unless she wants to propagate the Targ line (give Jon up so he can have dem babies), she only has to have a conversation with Jon to know that he has no intention of laying claim to the throne. Politically it doesn't make sense, there are basically no people left in Westeros and they've all been fighting for *years.* The smart thing to do is make a marriage and have Jon defer power to Dany, which would have happened anyway.

Assuming they all survive, of course.

[kieyra]

No way Jamie dies in this imminent battle, no. My money is on him being the one to put Cersei down in the end. Their arc isn’t over yet. 

[hypnotoad]

Quote

When Sansa, teary and emotional, rushed to hug Theon, the look on Dany’s face screamed, “Sansa! Sansa! Sansa! Why does everyone love Sansa?!?!”

I didn't see that at all. I thought Dany looked surprised and trying to figure out what the connection was between these two people. I agree with others who have commented about Theon and Sansa: I think she is more emotional with him because he knows exactly what she went through. He saw her really at her lowest point. And she saw him at his.

I am rewatching and I loved when Brienne defended Jaimie and later when Jaimie asked to fight with her. Jaimie's scene with Bran in wood.

Davos and the little girl was touching too.

[GodsBeloved]

50 minutes ago, Drogo said:

<---"Someone Taller"

Stop it, just

[steelyis]

On 4/22/2019 at 4:12 AM, SimoneS said:

You are wrong.

Spoiler

There is a lot of incest in Stark family. 

Spoiler

Is it a books thing? No shade, but I don't remember any incest or even a hint of it happening to the TV versions of the Starks. Although, considering GRRM planned to pair Arya and Jon at one point, I realize I might have missed something.

[Brn2bwild]

Some other thoughts:

- Yay, Lyanna and Jorah exchanged dialogue!  Lyanna wasn't as pissed at Jorah as I would have thought.

- Tons of time to let Tyrion chew scenery, yet Arya and Dany have yet to exchange dialogue.  Arya and Sana (for this season) too for that matter.

[Lady S.]

7 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I'm totes confused about this North independence business. Weren't they under the rule of the Targs for at least 300 years and then under the rule of Robert Baratheon until Robb was declared King in the North. They haven't really been independent for the last three odd centuries. Were things that bad under the Targ rule? Or under Robert? 

Yep, and no, we've heard of no Stark/Targ fighting before the Mad King. And the first post-conquest KitN didn't want the job either, Robb just wanted to avenge his father. I also don't remember Sansa having any grander ambitions than going back home and being safe back in s6. The northern independence movement being re-started was Lyanna Mormont's idea.

The best thing about the Bran/Jaime convo was the implication Jaime won't survive this war.

WE HAD OUR FIRST GHOST SIGHTING SINCE EARLY S6, PEOPLE!

[LadyChaos]

Also....the Little Bear better survive!

Just now, Lady S. said:

WE HAD OUR FIRST GHOST SIGHTING SINCE EARLY S6, PEOPLE!

ABOUT DAMN TIME!

[Growsonwalls]

I have NO idea where I read this but I read somewhere that a lot of people were getting the wrong idea about huskies (that they're really fierce and protective, when they're actually goofy family dogs) from seeing the Direwolves, so they limited their screen time. Am I just imagining that?

Edited April 22, 2019 by Growsonwalls

[TobinAlbers]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

Some, thoughts where thrown about in my house, that maybe Dany might choose Sansa to be her new hand.  I thought that scene between between the two of them, was very well done and showed some give and take on both sides.  

Considering what happened to both Jon Arryn and her father when they were the King's Hand I don't see Sansa wanting that drama.  Ned and Cat both knew that Ned taking the role of King's Hand and leaving the North was very, very dangerous. Cat didn't want him to take it and Ned felt honor and duty bound to do as his King bid. 

Sansa's journey was having the stars in her eyes about King's Landing promptly knocked out and the realization that it was a pit of vipers and that the North was her home. Her sole priority has been reclaiming her home and shoring up the North in defense of whatever may come from Cersei.  Unless her being the Queen's Hand is literally something that will assure the protection of the North and her home, I don't see her ever wanting that position and leaving the North.

It's funny as Sansa was the one who wanted out and away from Winterfell but she's become one of its most fiercest defenders. I think Ned would be so heartened that Sansa grew to appreciate the North as she has - if only it hadn't come through such hard traumatic circumstances.

Edited April 22, 2019 by TobinAlbers

[Popples]

 

 

1

4 minutes ago, steelyis said:

Is it a books thing? No shade, but I don't remember any incest or even a hint of it happening to the TV versions of the Starks. Although, considering GRRM planned to pair Arya and Jon at one point, I realize I might have missed something.

Whaaaaaaaat?

[tennisgurl]

*Sigh* It feels like just yesterday that Old Nan was telling sweet summer child Bran about the legends of the long winters and the White Walkers. 

God, this whole episode was the equivalent of multiple characters showing their pictures of their children right before entering a war zone, while planning their retirement party, all the while changing into their red shirts. The title of this episode might as well be "Everybody Gon Die", and even the characters know it. 

Lots of great character bits here, and its just so weird/awesome to see so many characters here and interacting with each other, and dealing with their various weird, bloody histories together, and how they're all together now. Its hard to decide what my favorite reunion was. Theon and Sansa hugging in relief? Tormond still having a massive crush on SER Brienne? The only person with a bigger crush being Jaimie? Jaimie and Tyrion chatting about the last time they were here? Tormond glomping Jon, then him and Sam hugging Ed? The bittersweet moment between Ed, Sam, and Jon when they remembered their fallen friends? Arya is cool with two people on her death list? Even the Mormont cousins had a slightly awkward but also ending rather sweet scene. 

Look out yall. Sam stole several books from the Citadel Library! We got us a badass here!

Very shippy episode all things considered. Gendry and Arya finally get their...weapon training on, Missandi and Grey Worm are so freaking cute I cant even, and Brienne gets knighted by one of her boyfriends, while the other one cheers her on. But for real, I am happy we are getting this little character bits now that the show is wrapping up. I think we deserve these bits of closure before the slaughter begins. Brienne becoming a knight was amazing, she looked so happy! And everyone cheering, and Jaimie being all proud, it was all so sweet. 

*sniffles* Oh, you are all so toast. 

[steelyis]

1 minute ago, Popples said:

Whaaaaaaaat?

Apparently. Might contain spoilers.

[Love]

I haven’t seen this posted yet, but I wonder if Bran told Tyrion the truth about Jon when they were alone

[AnnaL]

19 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I'm totes confused about this North independence business. Weren't they under the rule of the Targs for at least 300 years and then under the rule of Robert Baratheon until Robb was declared King in the North. They haven't really been independent for the last three odd centuries. Were things that bad under the Targ rule? Or under Robert? 

That has always been the problem with the north. As many have said before the problem with the North is not to conquer it, it is to hold it. They are not an easy bunch to govern. 

The North is very different from the other kingdoms and no king has ever wanted anything to do with them, they do not bother to visit or help, they want the North to be part of the seven kingdoms because it is the biggest territory wise. The issue is that whenever they want to do any deal, any exchange, anything at all, it has to be approved by the king. Aegon the Conqueror made Torrehn Stark bend the knee but then basically left everything in the hand of the northerners, even though the king/queen always has the last word. That is how monarchy works. Maybe not independence but maybe some form of self-government with an alliance to the throne, kind of the deal that Dorne managed when they wouldn't bend the knee to Aegon. 

[Timetoread]

1 hour ago, Conan Troutman said:

Huh. I loved it, just the perfect quiet before the storm episode. So many great scenes, felt almost like a stage play. If everybody were to die next week, it would've been a great swan song.

Did you ever see Les Miserables?  The song this episode is One Day More.  Who gets to sing Bring Him Home over John?

[Delete]

😭😭😭😭