Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019)

[VCRTracking]

I love the dynamic so I'm not complaining but it does feel like JJ Abrams and co. realized early on "Oh shit! Rey, Poe and Finn have never been all together before and this is the last movie!" so they crammed like 6 movies worth of adventures in 2 and a half hours!

[TVSpectator]

21 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

I think you answered your own question there.

The movie looks to make about $195m to open, but how will it hold? A series-worst B+ CinemaScore doesn't bode well. Rumors are already swirling about Kathleen Kennedy's future.

Um, not my question. I was quoting someone earlier. 

[Morrigan2575]

27 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Rumors are already swirling about Kathleen Kennedy's future.

They need to get rid of her. She really messed up (or allowed to be messed up) multiple movies.

They have another trilogy planned and they need someone who can manage writers/directors and keep to unified story without massive amounts of reshoots (and director changes).

I say this as someone who loved Rogue One, TFA and Skywalker

[KnotsLanding]

The more I sit on this the more disappointed I am in this film. It just fails for me as the end of the 9 films or even this trilogy. Ben becoming good again right at the end felt like a waste and I didn't like him having to save Rey. If he was going to completely turnaround like this he needed an entire film to develop a complete arc where you see him struggle with his past and overcoming that. 

Then, my biggest problem is that even if you only look at *this* trilogy, what purpose did Poe and Finn serve? Their story arcs both felt awfully incomplete considering they've made it a point to say these characters are pretty much done for. I felt like with TFA this trio were the new stars, but unlike the original they certainly didn't all get the same kind of development. The focus was heavily on Rey, which would be fine if you weren't telling me this is it. Even if Rey didn't appear for a while, based on what they developed I need to see more of Poe and Finn so their story can be developed and fleshed out. Too many questions were left open for them. I also thought Keri Russell's character was fantastic, but pointless if this is the end. 

[Zuleikha]

Rey Palpatine doesn't bother me at all, but I am disappointed that Abrams didn't do more with it once he chose to do it. After Darth Maul's survival in Clone Wars, I don't think any "surprise! Not actually dead" choice could bother me. It just feels like a thing that happens in Star Wars now. 

But in addition, it is well established that the Sith were exploring using the Dark Side to preserve life and it is well established that cloning is a thing, so sure. I can extrapolate that Darth Sidious transferred his life energy to a clone body shell on the Sith world and had to regather power. He always operated well in the shadows and always did long-term planning, so it also makes sense to me that he used embezzeled resources to have a back-up fleet and used Snokes as a public face to rebuild the Empire.

Actually, in retrospect, that makes the repetition of the Death Star in TFA less of a weakness and more foreshadowing.

I just would have liked to see Rey struggle more with the Dark Side and end up fusing the Dark Side and Light Side together into something new. That's the biggest missed opportunity in the new trilogy, IMHO. It could have really dug deep into Jedi failings and alternative paths to either the Jedi or the Sith.

I think if Johnson wanted Rey-as-nobody to stick, he needed to write it better. IMHO, it was incoherent in TLJ. He could have made Rey a survivor of the Jedi Academy massacre who had been mind wiped for her protection and no one would have needed anything more. But the story he gave didn't make sense with her quick master of the Force or her devotion to her parents. 

I wish Rose hadn't been sidelined just because I know her character had fans, but I also get it. There wasn't really room for her. Jannah's character worked so much better with Finn.

Like others here, I really wish Reylo hadn't had the kiss. Otherwise, it was all fine. The two characters always had an amazing connection.

[Anduin]

Everyone! Go see the movie again! It's better the second time. Still a bit of a mess, but a fun mess!

[Cherpumple]

Add me to the "loved it" crowd. I've actually liked all the films in the new trilogy, and think they work very well together. They're all different, but I don't see this or TLJ as a "screw you" to their respective previous installments. They all work for me as one big story, despite a few inconsistencies.

I wasn't super thrilled about Rey Palpatine, but I can roll with it. I'd rather that he targeted her because he felt how strong she was with the force, but I'm not going to get too upset with this choice. Actually, my biggest gripe with this storyline was the tired old chestnut of "if you are angry enough to kill me, the super evil bad guy who's gleefully killed millions of innocent people, then it will turn you just as evil! Bwa ha ha ha!" Seriously, I hate that trope.

I 100% knew that Ben would be redeemed. There is no way that the legacy of Leia and Han's union would be a thoroughly evil unrepentant son, who gets murdered by the Resistance. And I, for one, was happy about the kiss. I'm not shipper, but it felt very right to me in the moment, which was very emotionally charged.

I liked a lot of the fan service because it felt like a good way to say goodbye to this world. I was definitely happier seeing the callback moments, than trying to get invested in new characters. However, the one moment that completely broke my suspension of disbelief was when Rey flew away in Luke's X-wing that had been submerged in the ocean for years. For some reason I can buy all the Jedi/Sith stuff, but a rusty old water-logged plane being able to fly was too much for me, lol. 

There are a lot of details that I want to take a closer look at on a second viewing, but for now I'll say the jars of pickled Snoke heads in Palpatine's lair made me laugh. And I can't wait to see someone do a cosplay of Palpatine, especially if they do it with a baby playing Palpatine, and the adult carrying him dressed as the life-support harness he's dangling off of.

[thuganomics85]

Saw it a few hours ago and need a bit to process it.

And, honestly, I'm still not fully sure where I'm at, yet.  Overall, I thought it was a generally well-made film, with great visual effects and production values, the direction was fine enough, the writing was alright, and the acting is still generally some of the best out of the franchise.  And, yet, I left the theatre kind of indifferent to it all?  For what should have been an end of a series; heck, even era; it just left me cold.

My biggest issue was that it definitely felt like the biggest mandate for this film was "fix everything that arguably wrong with The Last Jedi", and it was more about righting a perceived wrong, instead of creating something unique or new.  I get that The Last Jedi was polarizing as hell (and I wasn't a huge fan, personally), but it felt like this one went in almost the opposite direction, and became all about the fan service, instead of telling a compelling story.  None of the twist and turns wowed me, there was no suspense over the fate of the characters (yeah, sure, they're totally going to kill Chewbacca.  Ha!), and even the moments that delivered on a technical level, just lacked the emotional punch, since the history wasn't there.

And what made it frustrating was that we actually got a glimpse of how it would have worked, had the previous films been able to establish it.  Because it was great simply getting to see Rey, Finn, and Poe together for most of it, and watching them play off with one another.  I wish we had gotten more of Rey/Poe in this franchise, because Daisy Ridley and Oscar Isaac clearly work great together, but this really was the only significant time they've ever shared the screen.  Same with John Boyega as Finn and how he played off both of them (and vice versa.)  But I felt like I was suppose to buy these three having some kind of everlasting friendship and emotional connections, but it felt most of their relationships had happened off screen.  I just never connected with it like I did with the Luke/Han/Leia trio.

And then there was the reveal of Emperor Palpatine still being alive and Rey being his granddaughter the entire time.  All of that isn't bad in theory, but it was just all rushed and underdeveloped.  It felt like something that should have all came out in the last film, Empire Strikes Back-style, but instead they just barrel through all of it with a quickness: heck, even revealing Palpatine's return in the title crawl of all things.  It just smacked of course correction, because Rian Johnson's decision to off Snoke like he did threw J.J. Abrams for a loop, and he couldn't find a more satisfying way to fit it all in.  I guess they were just banking on the knowledge and love of the original trilogy to make it work for the audience, and, to be fair, it might have for others.  But for me, it would have felt like if Thanos suddenly got offed in Avengers: Endgame, and the true final baddie was Obadiah Stane/Jeff Bridges from the first Iron Man film.  Basically, a "Oh, he's back, cool!" moment, but not the groundbreaking "oh, hell yeah!" response that I suspect they were wanting.

The less said about the redemption of Kylo, the better.  Especially that awkward kiss between him and Rey.  Not sure if Abrams was trying to make shippers happy or mock them, by having him die right after.

Really felt like Rose was sidelined, because they were afraid of the haters.  I wasn't a huge fan of the character, but it still sucks since I'm sure the folks who bullied Kelly Marie Tran online and whatnot, will consider this a victory.  All of that shit still might have been one of the lowest moments concerning the Star Wars fandom.

Also, it looks like Abrams or someone didn't give damn about Hux anymore, since they reveal him to be a mole and off him with a quickness.  Sorry, Domnhall Gleeson, but they've got Richard E. Grant now to look menacing in a First Order uniform, so you're out!

Lando was fun for the brief moments they used him.  Also, I read that Denis Lawson reprised Wedge, but I missed that.

It was great seeing Han one final time, even though I spent the scene wondering how much money they dumped on Harrison Ford's lawn to get him back, since I know he isn't exactly wild about this franchise.  In all seriousness, I suspect he was more willing than normal due to what happen with Carrie Fisher, sadly.

Did like how they used the voices of all the famous Jedis for that one moment with Rey.

Damn, Abrams killed Greg Grunberg's character!  I didn't know he would do in his buddy like that!  At least Dominic Monaghan is now here!

Was there any real point to Keri Russell's character?  Other than to look cool in a suit and have someone for Poe to "have history" with?

The acting was great at least.  Ian McDiarmid was having a ball, Mark Hamill made the most of his one scene, John Boyega shined more this go around, and Oscar Isaac might be one of the most charismatic performers ever.  I suspect Adam Driver will get most of the praise and I do think he did great for what he was given, but I still feel like Daisy Ridley is the highlight and really has what it takes to be a huge star going forward.

So, yeah, I realize that a lot of this really sounds negative, so I guess I'm leaning more towards disliking it, even though I didn't think it was as bad as some of the critics made it out to be, and still miles above the prequels.  But, I don't know: I just really loved The Force Awakens and was hopeful that the series was finally back to form, but both of the follow-ups disappointed me in their own ways, and neither Rogue One or the Solo prequel stuck with me either.  There is clearly a lot of potential here, but it really does feel like they need to plan things out better or look at having someone oversee everything Kevin Feige/Marvel-style going forward.  I did hear they might be letting Jon Favreau get more involved with the Star Wars universe, and that could work since it seems like The Mandalorian is probably the most well received out of the Disney's Star Wars products.

 

[Anduin]

While I was rewatching today, I was struck with a thought. Not only did JJ borrow Andy Serkis and Dominic Monaghan from Lord of the Rings, he also borrowed the Mines of Moria and the Nazgul. Can't be easy getting work as a Nazgul. No one looks at a faceless guy in a hooded robe and thinks action hero. Sure, they just had to hang around chanting, but at least it's inside work!

[Morrigan2575]

9 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

just would have liked to see Rey struggle more with the Dark Side and end up fusing the Dark Side and Light Side together into something new. That's the biggest missed opportunity in the new trilogy, IMHO. It could have really dug deep into Jedi failings and alternative paths to either the Jedi or the Sith.

There's a storyline in Star Wars Rebels about Bendu, and ancient Force User who cared not for either side (Sith/Jedi) he was "the one in the middle". I would have liked the story of the Rey/Ben Diode to go like that, end the Sith and the Jedi and form something new, balanced where there is no Dark/Light side.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[starri]

The changes from the Legends version of the SWEU don't ordinarily bother me, but I did find myself vaguely disappointed at the use of Exegol as the homeworld of the Sith, as opposed to Korriban.  I guess after we had a desert planet in Pasaana (and brief visits to Jakku and Tatooine), they didn't want to use another arid world, but there's a lot of rich stuff built up about it already.

As an aside, I'm a bit shocked by the number of SW planets that Chrome's spellcheck recognizes.

[ShadowHunter]

Estimated domestic Box office for the weekend. 175.5 million. 

[Morrigan2575]

28 minutes ago, ShadowHunter said:

Estimated domestic Box office for the weekend. 175.5 million. 

That sounds pretty low. Just checked TLJ opened to $220M and TFA opened to $245M. 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

15 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I just would have liked to see Rey struggle more with the Dark Side and end up fusing the Dark Side and Light Side together into something new. That's the biggest missed opportunity in the new trilogy, IMHO. It could have really dug deep into Jedi failings and alternative paths to either the Jedi or the Sith.

I would've liked to have seen that too. I would liked to have seen Rey's dream where she was Emperess Palpatine.

They should have had Rey kill Palpatine and take in the dark side and have to fight her dark self, then the rest of the Jedi could've joined in to help her take control of it. Then she would actually bring balance to the force by becoming both. She would be neither a Jedi or Sith. She'd be something new.That would've been a nice way to end the series.

I still enjoyed it and plan on seeing it again. But i will admit it feels like they crammed 2 movies into one. If both of those movies had time to breathe I think it would've been better. 

[ShadowHunter]

52 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That sounds pretty low. Just checked TLJ opened to $220M and TFA opened to $245M. 

 

It is low for the SW saga. Any other movie that's a good opening but I agree it feels low. 

I hate when directors, writers, and producers tell you on Twitter or in an Interview what happened. Show it in the film.

[calliope1975]

The more I think about ROS, the more it bugs me, but while I'm a fan of SW, I'm not a huge stan. If Endgame had let me down, that would have devastated me, lol.

What boggles my mind, though, is TPTB knew they were making a new trilogy, right? They had one of the arguably biggest IPs in the world, and they didn't plot this shit out? eNot even a loose outline? They really just left it up to the directors to do whatever they wanted with no throughline? That's crazy to me. I really liked TLJ, but if KK or whomever was in charge didn't like what RJ did or where he was taking the story, why the hell didn't they course correct then? Is this all a response to some of the backlash from TLJ? Would Trevorrow have done the same thing as JJ or would he have mucked it up even more? Trevorrow's credited for story of ROS, but I'm curious how much of that is actual story and how much is contractual obligations. 

Can we go back 30 years and get a movie about Leia training with her brother? 😄

 

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

They really just left it up to the directors to do whatever they wanted with no throughline? That's crazy to me.

I truly don't believe JJ left no plans or notes for the other directors. There was clearly stuff set up in TFA that was paid off in ROS. You can see what was set up, what was paid off and what was trashed by Johnson (Fuck You, JJ - TM Kevin Smith).  You can also see that JJ was pissed in this movie (IMO), since he basically put in several Fuck You's to Johnson as well. 

My issue right now (beyond TLJ) is with Kennedy, she clearly cannot run Lucas films. There have been issues, results, and fired directors. Plus Disney has even pulled back on the number of films. They should seriously fire Kennedy and replace her with someone from the Marvel side.

2 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

It is low for the SW saga. Any other movie that's a good opening but I agree it feels low. 

 

Yeah, I meant low for SW, obviously most movies would kill for a $175M open. Rogue One opened to $155M and Solo opened to $85M. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[tennisgurl]

I am one of the weirdos who enjoyed Last Jedi, despite it being a very, very flawed film, but I thought this one was a big step up. The characters were more consistent, the plot was focused (so weird subplots!) and I think they wrapped things up pretty well. Weirdly, if you remove Last Jedi, a lot of this would be more consistent, except for the stuff with Luke, especially with tone and character stuff. I had a lot of fun, and even some of the stuff that was kinda nonsense, it was a Star Wars kind of nonsense. 

I really loved the Finn/Poe/Rey dynamic, and it retroactively makes me sad that it took us until now that we are just now getting it. I get why they couldn't all hang out much in the first movie (especially as they originally planned on Poe dying if I remember right) but keeping them all in separate subplots in the last movie was a really bad call, to me it was one of the biggest. I would have loved to watch them have more adventures, and I really wanted the conversation where Finn tells Rey that he is Force sensitive, and maybe have him move something with the Force at the end or something. However, I really liked what we got, especially everything between Poe and Rey, they had such an interesting relationship that I really wanted to see more of. 

Every scene with Carrie hit me right in the feels. And I was thrilled that they got Harrison back for one scene, it seemed like it was necessary if they wanted to give Ben some redemption. Like, alright, if Han says its ok, I can maybe deal with this emo little punk as a good guy before he fucks off to be a force ghost.  

Space Burning Man looks like a blast! 

Lando! Not a lot of him but what we got was a ton of fun (and he even wore a cape!) and after not getting to see Luke react to Han dying in the last movie, I am glad that he took a minute when Leia passed. 

Well we all knew that was coming. Kylo Ryn becomes Ben and dies saving Rey, much like grandpa did with Luke. Their kiss seemed weird, but like I said, its weird in a very Star Wars kind of way. Like, well this just got all weird and poetic, but whatever, space opera! The fight with Palpatine was pretty cool in general, as was him being the Big Bad, as its his bullshit that basically started all of this in the first freaking place. It really is a small galaxy, full of really crappy family reunions! Hearing all of the past Jedis (including BOTH Obi-Wans) was really moving, especially as it closes up this chapter of the franchise. I hope that Reys yellow light saber is a sign that she can find balance in herself, between the parts drawn to the dark and the light. Honestly, it seems more healthy for her than ditching one side of her emotions or the other.  

Hux being the spy was a hilariously great twist, and of course he just wants to screw Kylo over, being the couple of petulant emo kids that they are. Sucks that he got killed right after, its one of those times when you feel like the director was trying to tie up lose ends quickly, but at least it was an ending of some kind. 

I think I need to consider this more, really sit on it to figure out how I feel about it, wait for the millions of Think Pieces, read them, forget them, read the couple I actually liked again, watch it again a few times, and then make up a final opinion. Then be sad for awhile that we didnt get a Baby Yoda cameo. Yeah I know it would make no sense, but I fan can dream right?!

[starri]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Space Burning Man looks like a blast! 

It was like the podrace, but an event I'd want to attend.

[Spartan Girl]

When the words "Supreme Leader Kylo Ren" appeared in the opening crawl, my brother and I burst out laughing right there in the theater.

Seriously, it took us several minutes to stop. Just imagining that petulant emo boy yelling, "It's not just Kylo Ren, it's SUPREME LEADER Kylo Ren now!"

[Brn2bwild]

The timeline seems a bit weird for Rey to be Palpatine's granddaughter.  Her parents in the flashback looked quite young, no older than Luke or Leia might have been at that time (and probably younger).  How could Palpatine, who quite likely would have been the Emperor by that time, have spawned children in his hideous state?  I think it would have worked better if Rey were his great-granddaughter and Palpatine had a normal family before he fully embraced the Dark Side.

[starri]

19 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Her parents in the flashback looked quite young, no older than Luke or Leia might have been at that time (and probably younger).  How could Palpatine, who quite likely would have been the Emperor by that time, have spawned children in his hideous state?

They hint very strongly that Palpatine was the one who created Anakin.  It doesn't seem that far-fetched to me in the universe in which we find ourselves that he could have created a child of his own in the same way.

[Brn2bwild]

1 minute ago, starri said:

They hint very strongly that Palpatine was the one who created Anakin.  It doesn't seem that far-fetched to me in the universe in which we find ourselves that he could have created a child of his own in the same way.

If so, it's weird that he would want the daughter of that child to be killed, then.  You would think he'd want to reunite with the offspring of any child he created.

[starri]

4 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

If so, it's weird that he would want the daughter of that child to be killed, then.  You would think he'd want to reunite with the offspring of any child he created.

Did he want to kill her, though?  It seemed more like he wanted to possess her.

[Morrigan2575]

32 minutes ago, starri said:

They hint very strongly that Palpatine was the one who created Anakin.  It doesn't seem that far-fetched to me in the universe in which we find ourselves that he could have created a child of his own in the same way.

Was that in the movies or EU? I'm drawing a blank on this.

[starri]

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

Was that in the movies or EU? I'm drawing a blank on this.

In the opera scene, Palpatine tells Anakin how Darth Plagueis could manipulate midichlorians, create life, and reverse death.  We also see Shmi tell Qui-Gon that Anakin didn't have a father.  That always seemed like pretty clear subtext to me.

[Morrigan2575]

12 minutes ago, starri said:

In the opera scene, Palpatine tells Anakin how Darth Plagueis could manipulate midichlorians, create life, and reverse death.  We also see Shmi tell Qui-Gon that Anakin didn't have a father.  That always seemed like pretty clear subtext to me.

Ah thanks. I knew Anakin didn't have a father, I remembered the belief that he was created by the Force itself. I also remember the Darth Plagueis discussion but, I never connected it to Palpatine creating Anakin. I just always assumed it was related to Palpatine playing with clones alla The Zahn Trilogy.

This is an interesting theory, thanks for sharing.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[scarynikki12]

15 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

Actually, my biggest gripe with this storyline was the tired old chestnut of "if you are angry enough to kill me, the super evil bad guy who's gleefully killed millions of innocent people, then it will turn you just as evil! Bwa ha ha ha!" Seriously, I hate that trope.

I hate the trope too but I bought it here. I think it was because Palpatine intended for the result of her killing him to be that he and all the previous Sith would inhabit her body. Rey killed him only moments later with the whole history of Jedi behind her so I don't think it was just about "you kill me and you're as bad as me mwa ha ha!" but more about it fulfilling his plan. He'd arranged for what looked like Sith spirits to be present when she did it so I think it was the last ingredient needed for the ritual. But then he used the life force from her and Ben to fully come back and the ritual was no longer possible which then made Palpatine vulnerable to being killed dead without any risk to Rey's soul.

[Zuleikha]

Quote

They should have had Rey kill Palpatine and take in the dark side and have to fight her dark self, then the rest of the Jedi could've joined in to help her take control of it. Then she would actually bring balance to the force by becoming both. She would be neither a Jedi or Sith. She'd be something new.That would've been a nice way to end the series.

Yes, that would have been perfect in my world. It would have given the sequel trilogy a clear role in the story by showing the evolution of the Force from the corruption of the Jedi council of the prequels to the balanced version that Anakin was supposed to create.

I hate to rag on TLJ continuously, but the moment when Palpatine drained Kylo and Rey, I felt like I could see how this trilogy could have paced well if the substance of the first part of TROS was the ending of the second movie. It's so easy to see how it could have worked. Luke could have the knowledge of Exogel and trained Rey. He could also have talked about the tragedy with Kylo causing him to question the Jedi way/Jedi understanding of the Force. Snokes could still be quickly resolved, but having him revealed as a puppet of Palpatine would make that feel more like a story beat and less like a dodge. Kylo thinking he could escape and gain mastery of his fate only to find out that he's still a pawn in someone else's game plan would make his return to the light feel more coherent. And then you could have a third movie start with Dark Rey, which would be fresh and fun. 

Quote

Really felt like Rose was sidelined, because they were afraid of the haters.

I don't think Abrams cares. He made his name with Alias remember. He's always been pro inclusivity in characters and casting. I think Rose was sidelined because the cast was already crowded, and she doesn't have a strong character purpose. I think you could have exchanged her for Poe in some of the movie without too much being affected, but that wouldn't make sense. Poe's a more significant character.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Zuleikha

[anna0852]

I actually liked it. Not as much as Force Awakens but far more than Last Jedi. Adored the Poe/Rey/Finn dynamic and find myself wanting to know what adventures they have next. And I feel like I've been able to bid a sad farewell to tge original trio. If the movie can accomplish those two things then I think it was a success. 

I would like to see further movies, maybe in the hands of a trusted Kevin Feige lieutenant. The Marvel side of the Disney house has a lock on turning out great movie after great movies within a cinematic universe. Let's see what they can do with SW as we move away from Skywalkers.

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I really loved the Finn/Poe/Rey dynamic, and it retroactively makes me sad that it took us until now that we are just now getting it. ... However, I really liked what we got, especially everything between Poe and Rey, they had such an interesting relationship that I really wanted to see more of. 

Poe and Rey had such a great dynamic, and they played it very well, like you could tell they'd had similar arguments/discussions many times. It was so comfortable and lived in that I almost forgot that they didn't even meet until the very end of the previous movie. The development of that friendship took place entirely between films, but it seemed real enough that the hand clasp at the very end felt utterly genuine.

I kind of feel like this should have been two movies, telling more of the story that happened offscreen, like see the rebels reacting to that first transmission from Palpatine, see more of Rey's training, the formation of the Finn-Rey-Poe friendship, Kylo Ren's quest to find Palpatine, etc. I understand why it would have been difficult to really deal with it all in a film, especially without Carrie Fisher (they could only kludge so much of her screen presence, and fully developing Leia's relationship with Rey would have been impossible), but that's ripe material for a novel.

I found myself thinking during the movie that I'd watch a whole movie of Rey, Finn, and Poe hanging out. I think that's a big part of the fail of the prequels, that those weren't characters you wanted to hang out with. In the original trilogy, Han, Luke, and Leia had a great relationship and were fun to spend time with, and this cast also has a great dynamic that makes you want to be friends with them.

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

I hate the trope too but I bought it here. I think it was because Palpatine intended for the result of her killing him to be that he and all the previous Sith would inhabit her body.

This movie retroactively makes me better handle that in Return of the Jedi, where it's always bothered me that there's no problem with Luke killing scores of random stormtroopers, who are likely either clones or conscripted and probably have little choice in serving, but Luke killing Palpatine, the guy who's responsible for all this, would be terrible. But if that's what Palpatine was up to even then, that killing a Sith is some kind of ceremonial act that turns you into a Sith by pouring all the power into you, then okay, killing Palpatine is a bad idea.

I liked this one, but I wish they'd dealt with some of the issues the previous movie set up with the Jedi. There were serious problems with the Jedi, going back to the prequels, and I liked the idea of the Jedi ending, to be replaced with something better. That could still happen, and maybe they'll get into it in future movies. I actually liked a lot of The Last Jedi, and I've found the whole argument about Rey needing to be part of a bloodline rather than being nobody to be kind of silly, considering that the Jedi were supposed to be celibate. There were no great Jedi bloodlines. Every Jedi other than Luke and Leia had to come from nobody because the Jedi didn't have kids. There was only any kind of Skywalker dynasty because Anakin broke the rules. If force sensitivity/Jedi potential is truly genetic, the Jedi would have died out (and making them be celibate would have been really dumb). Now that we've seen that force potential is a trait that can be passed on, whatever replaces the Jedi needs to rethink that celibacy policy. Not that they should get into eugenics and selective breeding, but they also shouldn't discourage talented people from having families, and maybe allowing the kids to grow up with their families and have emotional bonds might be a good idea, too. If the Empire/First Order conscripting child soldiers and taking them away from their families is bad, then it can't be great for the Jedi to do it, too.

[Jillibean]

48 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

Yes, that would have been perfect in my world. It would have given the sequel trilogy a clear role in the story by showing the evolution of the Force from the corruption of the Jedi council of the prequels to the balanced version that Anakin was supposed to create.

I hate to rag on TLJ continuously, but the moment when Palpatine drained Kylo and Rey, I felt like I could see how this trilogy could have paced well if the substance of the first part of TROS was the ending of the second movie. It's so easy to see how it could have worked. Luke could have the knowledge of Exogel and trained Rey. He could also have talked about the tragedy with Kylo causing him to question the Jedi way/Jedi understanding of the Force. Snokes could still be quickly resolved, but having him revealed as a puppet of Palpatine would make that feel more like a story beat and less like a dodge. Kylo thinking he could escape and gain mastery of his fate only to find out that he's still a pawn in someone else's game plan would make his return to the light feel more coherent. And then you could have a third movie start with Dark Rey, which would be fresh and fun. 

I don't think Abrams cares. He made his name with Alias remember. He's always been pro inclusivity in characters and casting. I think Rose was sidelined because the cast was already crowded, and she doesn't have a strong character purpose. I think you could have exchanged her for Poe in some of the movie without too much being affected, but that wouldn't make sense. Poe's a more significant character.

I totally agree about the wasted potential that was lost due to severe missteps with pacing in movie two. I think a Palpatine return at the end of the second movie could have really set up the third so nicely and given us direction and a clear mission statement for movie three two years ago, which I think would have helped this one tremendously. The fact is that going in, no one even really knew what the story was going to be, and that’s not a great trait in a concluding movie of a trilogy. 
I think Rose was sidelined because she wasn’t JJ’s creation or idea, and therefore he had no interest in her. Truly a shame that in shunting her off he unintentionally validated the internet trolls. 

5 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

What boggles my mind, though, is TPTB knew they were making a new trilogy, right? They had one of the arguably biggest IPs in the world, and they didn't plot this shit out? eNot even a loose outline? They really just left it up to the directors to do whatever they wanted with no throughline? That's crazy to me. I really liked TLJ, but if KK or whomever was in charge didn't like what RJ did or where he was taking the story, why the hell didn't they course correct then? Is this all a response to some of the backlash from TLJ? Would Trevorrow have done the same thing as JJ or would he have mucked it up even more? Trevorrow's credited for story of ROS, but I'm curious how much of that is actual story and how much is contractual obligations. 

 

SO crazy. I really can’t imagine what they were thinking, and clearly their “strategy” to just let the directors do whatever really mucked this whole thing up. I think the issue with TLJ was that Disney/Lucas Film allegedly really liked it. I think it must have been a shock for them when the fans had such a strong negative reaction, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they overcorrected in this one by interfering too much. 

13 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

It was great seeing Han one final time, even though I spent the scene wondering how much money they dumped on Harrison Ford's lawn to get him back, since I know he isn't exactly wild about this franchise.  In all seriousness, I suspect he was more willing than normal due to what happen with Carrie Fisher, sadly.

I agree that in light of Carrie’s death, he likely had a different outlook and wasn’t too tough a sell. He basically had to finish her story for her. And that scene was one of my favorites of the movie. I thought reenacting the scene from TFA but from the opposite context was pretty smart, and the “Dad,” “I know,” exchange was beautiful and heartbreaking to me. That said, I have always found Kylo/Ben fascinating, mostly due to Driver’s acting, and I have been expecting a redemption storyline since TFA released. I’m sure others who weren’t as invested in the character didn’t love that scene the way I did.

I initially felt like Kylo’s turn back to Ben was too abrupt, but in thinking about it more and discussing it with others it makes sense to me that in healing him, Rey restored part of his soul as well and helped him heed that call to the light. She even healed that lightsaber scar, making him visually a different person. His father’s forgiveness was the last obstacle in his way to believe he could go back. I really do wish we had gotten more of Ben if only because Adam’s acting really rose to the task of showing him as a different character than Kylo. I mean, for all intents and purposes his only line was “ow.”

[Anduin]

22 minutes ago, Jillibean said:

I initially felt like Kylo’s turn back to Ben was too abrupt, but in thinking about it more and discussing it with others it makes sense to me that in healing him, Rey restored part of his soul as well and helped him heed that call to the light. She even healed that lightsaber scar, making him visually a different person. His father’s forgiveness was the last obstacle in his way to believe he could go back. I really do wish we had gotten more of Ben if only because Adam’s acting really rose to the task of showing him as a different character than Kylo. I mean, for all intents and purposes his only line was “ow.”

I'm not a Reylo shipper, but I would like to see Daisy and Adam play a couple. They can even be action heroes. Let's find someone to remake Mr and Mrs Smith with those two in the lead.

[VCRTracking]

I like Kelly and Rose. I think some people thought she'd get an important role like Lando in Return of the Jedi. She's more like Luna Lovegood in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. Luna was introduced in Order of the Phoenix and had a very prominent part with lots of scenes.In HBP the next one her role was greatly diminished because she just didn't have much to do with that story. It's just nice to see her still around. Finding important things to do with recurring characters is hard as hell in sequels, especially when always introducing new ones. Lando leading the Rebel attack on the Death Star II in ROTJ was incredibly contrived to begin with(though I love it).

Edited December 23, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

I like Kelly and Rose. I think some people thought she'd get an important role like Lando in Return of the Jedi. She's more like Luna Lovegood in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince.

Yeah, that's the way I see it, too. She had a role in TLJ to provide Finn with company during the Canto Bight excursion, but in this one Poe and then Jannah were already around.

 

[Simon Boccanegra]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I like Kelly and Rose. I think some people thought she'd get an important role like Lando in Return of the Jedi. She's more like Luna Lovegood in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince.

That's a good comparison.

And I have not seen Return of the Jedi in a while, but as I recall, Lando really wasn't all that prominent once the opening rescue mission was complete. He was contributing, but his screen time was with the minor players, rather than in the on-ground adventure with Leia, Han, Chewbacca, and the droids. Pauline Kael, a Williams fan, commented on it in her 1983 review ("Billy Dee Williams’ Lando, the gambling man, has been made a general in the rebel forces; perhaps the high rank is meant to compensate for his being on the margins of the movie. He checks in now and then to remind us of a war that’s supposed to be going on somewhere").   

Rose and her story with Finn were among the things I disliked about TLJ, so I was okay with this development. I didn't like Kelly Marie Tran's performance either, but I wouldn't avoid her in future movies. I just don't think any of the new characters in that movie were well conceived or integrated, and my suspicion is that more experienced actors like Laura Dern and Benicio del Toro were better equipped to make the best of it.

[TVSpectator]

11 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

The more I think about ROS, the more it bugs me, but while I'm a fan of SW, I'm not a huge stan. If Endgame had let me down, that would have devastated me, lol.

What boggles my mind, though, is TPTB knew they were making a new trilogy, right? They had one of the arguably biggest IPs in the world, and they didn't plot this shit out? eNot even a loose outline? They really just left it up to the directors to do whatever they wanted with no throughline? That's crazy to me. I really liked TLJ, but if KK or whomever was in charge didn't like what RJ did or where he was taking the story, why the hell didn't they course correct then? Is this all a response to some of the backlash from TLJ? Would Trevorrow have done the same thing as JJ or would he have mucked it up even more? Trevorrow's credited for story of ROS, but I'm curious how much of that is actual story and how much is contractual obligations.

 

From what I heard JJ left Rain Johnson with a bunch of notes/ideas but he either threw them out and/or didn't used them. I have also heard that they cut out an entire character (which was to be played by Matt Smith)/plot line because Iger felt that the average movie goer would be left out of that plot. Personally, with those two things in my head I do wonder how much of a plan JJ originally had. I mean if Palpatine was the final big bad and that Rey was his granddaughter was not even hinted in the first film. I don't know about you but I got the impression that she was most likely a Solo (a long lost child of Han and Leia) or even Luke's daughter. I would've never have guessed that she was a Palpatine and that she was most likely a Skywalker by blood. 

 

Also here is youtube video that tries to break down on what happened with this movie behind the scenes. Iger definitely got involved and changed things. Also according the to rumors their were so many different endings as well (not just two but like 6 different endings) and that Iger was the final say in things. KK seems to be on her way out since I have heard that TROS is not going to make a billion dollars and is actually under performing. Plus, Rain Johnston is also rumored on his way out as well and his trilogy isn't going to happen any time soon. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by TVSpectator

[Perfect Xero]

Finn was my favorite character in TFA and he was my favorite here too. Finn finding other storm troopers who rebelled and deserted, that they had a shared connection to the force. That got me emotional.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

From what I heard JJ left Rain Johnson with a bunch of notes/ideas but he either threw them out and/or didn't used them. 

KK seems to be on her way out since I have heard that TROS is not going to make a billion dollars and is actually under performing. Plus, Rain Johnston is also rumored on his way out as well and his trilogy isn't going to happen any time soon. 

Do you have any source for these rumours? From everything I've heard over the years, it's pretty much the opposite. JJ didn't bother to leave anything behind, and as of a couple of months back, Rian Johnson was still confident about Star Wars.

[katha]

I liked both TFA and TLJ. But it was pretty clear that they wanted to take things in different directions. And so the third movie always had a difficult job to do. Considering all that, TROS was probably as good as it was going to get.

But yeah, the whole of it had an air of rushing through it, trying to reconcile all sorts of stuff, trying to keep different fan fractions happy to it. Much of it just seemed unfinished, or as if they thought about three hundred different possibilities and couldn't quite decide which one to choose.

For example, IMO the Kylo Ren/Ben Solo stuff worked as a narrative throughout the three movies. His connection with Rey, his conflict and struggle, the stuff with Han (both in TFA and the mirror of that in TROS), it's sad that more couldn't be done with Leia, but that isn't the fimmakers' fault. That arc has a coherence to it that some of the other themes in the trilogy were lacking, you don't have to agree with any of the decisions that were made, but some sort of plan is recognizable. I mean, still...in TROS, Ben Solo didn't have any lines. Driver established a completely separate character from Kylo Ren out of nothing with only his physicality and facial expressions. So it was a total rush job and he barely had any material to work with, but managed to drag it over the finish line on the strength of his performance because at least the script didn't get in the way...

And I think it seemed like that in a lot of instances. So much different stuff was thrown at Rey, Ridley managed to hold it together with her performance. But it didn't seem like there was always a clear idea where she needed to go as a character. Everything with Driver/Rylo/Ben worked, the camaraderie with Poe and Finn worked. But the waffling about concerning her identity never seemed to really go away. As if Palpatine was one of the 5000 ideas they had conceived and this is the one they went with because they ran out of time.

Same with Finn and Poe. Many interesting ideas swarmed about them, but it seemed as if the movie just didn't have time to dwell on any of it and properly explore. And again, Boyega and Isaac elevated everything they were given. No one can fault that cast, they gave it their all. It just seems as if TPTB weren't quite sure what they wanted this trilogy to be.

And yeah, the moment you have different directors for different installments, you need to enforce a clear vision and storyline continuity. For whatever reason, this broke down a bit. Still, I thought the movies were great on their own terms, even if the third one had to deal with the consequences of two disparate concepts and turned into a bit of a glorious mess in the process.

[Browncoat]

I wondered, too, after The Force Awakens, if maybe Rey were a mystery child of Luke’s. But I think I like it better that she’s a Skywalker by choice instead of by birth.

[ShadowHunter]

12 hours ago, Anduin said:

I'm not a Reylo shipper, but I would like to see Daisy and Adam play a couple. They can even be action heroes. Let's find someone to remake Mr and Mrs Smith with those two in the lead.

I've actually said the same thing about Adam and Daisy lol. I have mentioned to others that they should be cast as romantic leads in something else. 

[Wynterwolf]

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Finn was my favorite character in TFA and he was my favorite here too. Finn finding other storm troopers who rebelled and deserted, that they had a shared connection to the force. That got me emotional.

Me too! But I so wanted her to say something like, 'we heard about another stromtrooper who escaped, and it gave us hope that we could do that for ourselves too, so we did!'.  

[Featherhat]

Just seen it and I liked it as long as I left any expectations of logic at the door.  I think if they wanted all that then it should have been set up in a much more coherent way throughout the new trilogy but it also could have been a lot worse.

I have been against a Kylo Ren/Ben redemption since TFA but it was done as well as it could be I think and I knew even though I was against it, it was always coming. No sure about them having that soulmate type bond in the force though. Adam Driver is certainly a good expressive facial actor. Han's scene actually made me tear up and Leia's wrap up storyline was done awkwardly but the best they could. 

Palpatine, meh, though IMcD was having a blast as always. I thought the death ritual was OTT and not particularly in character for a Sith who always personally wanted to live forever, not via biological legacy so I liked it when he realised there was an even better plan to absorb their bond power and rise again himself. It's still stupid that they went there with him surviving like the EU books that couldn't think of anything else to do than have yet another mad clone Emperor. Then again it was all pretty fan ficcy in general. 

Loved seeing the main new trio together and it makes me sad that we didn't see much of it before. I'm glad Finn actually had something to do in this one. 

Loved seeing Dennis Lawson's cameo, which I wasn't spoiled for. 

[slf]

For all that Abrams didn't like TLJ he should be grateful to Rian Johnson because at no point since TFA came out have I seen so many people say such nice things about it. When that movie was released people lost it. "He killed Han Solo. Why is the lead character a fucking girl?! And why is she so strong? Luke had to train for 55 years and 19 movies until he became powerful enough to fight another force user, this dumb bitch was able to take on a Luke Sywalker-trained Sith about 48 hours after getting her hands on a lightsaber?! And Kylo Ren is an emo bitch baby, this is really the big bad? And Han and Leia's son? Why does that gross girl get the Falcon? This black guy being here is just pandering, this whole movie is just PC pandering! Snoke looks really stupid, just really truly stupid. And also? You know what? Fuck Abrams for baiting us then not giving us Luke until the very end! That's so disrespectful to us and Luke and Mark Hamill and baby Jesus." All of a sudden, TFA was an extremely well-received movie and Abrams probably left some map behind Johnson most definitely should have followed because then ROS would make sense.

On a different note, TFA made me think that if they were going to make Rey descended from someone known then they were going to do Rey Kenobi not Rey Palpatine.

Edited December 23, 2019 by slf

[JessePinkman]

I don't usually think about Star Wars movies after seeing them but I can't get this one out of my head.

In hindsight I think TLJ left JJ and co. a lot of material to expand the universe instead of telling the original trilogy again. That's the problem with Star Wars as a whole really, you don't make an action/adventure movie set in the Star Wars universe, you make a Star Wars movie (which isn't even a Star Wars movie, it's a Star Wars movie with nostalgia goggles on). It's almost like it's own genre of film. People say that Rian Johnson didn't make a Star Wars movie and that's true but that wasn't the problem with TLJ, the problem with that is that it just wasn't a very good movie. But it had seeds of potential that could have grown what we think of when we think Star Wars.

I have questions. The last movie ended with a little boy using the Force, why didn't we dive deeper into that? I think they could have expanded on Rey and Finn's abandonment issues and had them training/teaching young padawans. Would it not have been totally in character to have the Resistance traveling through the galaxy looking for future Jedi?

Why weren't Finn and Rose as an established couple? I know Rose wasn't your idea JJ but would it have hurt to keep that going?

Speaking of Finn, what was the point of making his Force sensitivity a mystery?

Why introduce Keri Russell as this pretty awesome new character in the last movie of the trilogy? Why was Naomie Ackie in this movie at all? She's great (watch The End of the F**king World season 2) but they didn't even do much with this band of escaped Stormtroopers, what was the point?

[SnoGirl]

45 minutes ago, slf said:

On a different note, TFA made me think that if they were going to make Rey descended from someone know then they were going to do Rey Kenobi not Rey Palpatine.

That was my pet theory. It would have been more circular, and more interesting. I think making Rey a Palpatine hit the problem I have with this whole series. It was like they were pitching ideas and got stuck on everything darkside. Let’s make Leia and Hans kid go darkside! Let’s have the main character’s heritage Darkside! Let’s just stomp all over the Resistance the whole trilogy.

After seeing it again, I got stuck on what could have been. It’s a shame someone didn’t go, let’s have Ben Solo’s story be like Anakin’s but have him hold off like Luke did at the end. Change some of the story, like having Ben and Finn find Rey. Have Ben have a relationship with the main players-especially with Han and Leia. Have the Jedi school still running but have it be attacked by the Knights of Ren and have Ben, Rey and Luke not be able to stop it. We see Palpatine is behind the attack when Snoke talks to him. Now we see Ben start to be like Anakin and tempted by the darkside because he feels guilty where Rey is more resolved to stop the First Order. See their paths diverge but with Rey and Finn (and Poe because Finn/Poe are life) still trying to get Ben back. Finn is force sensitive still and Rey starts training him. First Order still stomps on the Resistance, maybe killing Han. You get what I’m getting at. It would have been nice also to see other players from other Star Wars stuff. No Mandalorian resistance fighters? No Jacen Syndulla-please, I don’t think anything would have kept him out of a Rebel fight considering his family.
 

I think the ending of Ben sacrificing for Rey would have had more weight if we had actually gotten Ben in earlier movies. Without speaking at all Driver convinced me he was a Solo during a fight. Just imagine what we would have seen if we had seen Ben the whole damn time. And if Rey had been a Kenobi, once again we have a Kenobi trying to save a Skywalker from going darkside.

Anyways, watching this movie The second time reinforced how much I loved all the human moments. Poe and Finn and cheating Chewie. Rey and Poe arguing about the Falcon and BB8. Finn telling Rey they were coming with her. Any Poe/Finn moment (I DIED when Finn said Poe was no Leia especially since Finn saved Poe like Han saved Leia from the Deathstar). Ben bowing like Han. Any of the Lando moments.
 

I’ll always watch these movies. I just hope someone looks at this trilogy and goes “let’s do better.” I hope they give Filioni the other Star Wars trilogy they were talking about making.

[Lugal]

On 12/21/2019 at 9:21 AM, Maximum Taco said:

Asking me to fill in the plotholes is lazy storytelling. Sci-Fi and Fantasy isn't an explanation or an excuse for lazy storytelling.

That's Abrams' MO.  I remember all the time when his Star Trek movie came out that whenever I would bring up the plotholes and stuff that didn't make sense I would be hit with: "You need to read the Countdown comics..."  No, I don't.  If you need supplemental material for your story to make sense, you're a terrible storyteller.

The fact that this whole trilogy was not planned out in advance is classic Abrams.

[Spartan Girl]

25 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Anyways, watching this movie The second time reinforced how much I loved all the human moments. Poe and Finn and cheating Chewie. Rey and Poe arguing about the Falcon and BB8. Finn telling Rey they were coming with her. Any Poe/Finn moment (I DIED when Finn said Poe was no Leia especially since Finn saved Poe like Han saved Leia from the Deathstar). Ben bowing like Han. Any of the Lando moments.

I loved those human moments. Even Ben showing that Solo swagger when going off to help Rey got to me. That was the first time he actually felt like Han and Leia's son. And the little crack in his voice when he talk to Ghost Han ("Dad...") and Han's classic standby "I know."  Oh, if only he hadn't spent most of the movies acting like a petulant mass murdering bitch boy...

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

I have questions. The last movie ended with a little boy using the Force, why didn't we dive deeper into that? I think they could have expanded on Rey and Finn's abandonment issues and had them training/teaching young padawans. Would it not have been totally in character to have the Resistance traveling through the galaxy looking for future Jedi?

Because the internet is full of whiners. Can't build on the most interesting plot points, oh no. Let's ignore or undo as much of TLJ as we can.