S04.E13: The Seam

[iMonrey]

I . . . did not like this. Ever since the elevator scene foreshadowed an important death I have had a sinking feeling the show was going to kill off a major character just to show how daring and edgy they are. But killing off the (arguably) main character is a step too far. This whole story began with Quentin. It's like killing off Rick on The Walking Dead. Can they still make The Magicians without Quentin? Sure, but it's not the same show. It's more like a sequel or a spin-off. 

I'm sure I will watch next season, but I don't know that I'll ever enjoy it as much without Jason Ralph. He was just that important to the success of the show.

Edited April 18, 2019 by iMonrey

[kieyra]

Quote

Even though I predicted this, I'm really not okay. I've been dealing with a major medical issue for most of the last year which has caused depression. With Quentin dying and whatever Avengers Endgame has planned for me next week it's just not good for me right now.

It was hard for me not to post about the way this hit me personally. But since someone else has ...

Yeah, I'm already fighting the depression monster right now. But I watch a lot of scripted TV and rarely get too emotionally invested in much of it. This one hit way, way too hard, especially for a show I had only recently discovered. I woke up in the middle of the night, and again in the morning, being upset about it. Which is very unlike me. 

This show is messy, but it is/was something special and unique. The Quentin/Eliot setup and then nuking it feels extremely cruel. (I don't even remember if they got a scene together before Quentin sacrificed himself?)

I mentioned upthread the Lexa/Clarke controversy from The 100, and that's what this most reminds me of*. It seems like such a weird misstep for someone already operating in the genre space, with an audience they surely understand is vulnerable, especially right now.

I'm not saying content creators are responsible for the mental health of people who choose to view their creations. But jeez, this is a punch they maybe could have pulled. I know what to expect with shows like GoT and other high-stakes offerings. This one came way, way out of left field. 

And so much for my planned Netflix rewatches ...

(*I understand that this was not, strictly speaking, 'bury your gays', but it still felt like baiting.)

Edited April 18, 2019 by kieyra

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, daisycat said:

Festivus, you matter. Depression lies, especially when you're weakened by medical issues. You matter. ❤️ Hoping for a speedy recovery for you, and the strength to get you there!

TOPIC? One of the things I loved about the Quentin/Eliot possible storyline is that being bisexual didn't even seem to faze Q, and it never really did. Q was one of those beautiful (if damaged) souls who see and love people for who they are, and who is absolutely devoted to those he loves.

I think I said it previously, but what I loved about that as well was how consistent it was with the character. He makes deep personal connections with people (rather than having a lot of shallow connections). Many bisexuals talk about loving the person. For them, deep emotional connections are what create physical attraction. It felt like Quentin was one of those people. In a world where bisexual men are rarely portrayed and bisexual characters are often portrayed poorly, the loss of his character really bums me out.

[owenthurman]

In regards to this show, my predictions have been accurate approximately zero percent of the time, so, grain of salt, but:

Remember the alternate universe where Quentin was a villain?

What if an alternate-universe Q is "the dark king" ruling over Fillory now, who deposed Josh and Fen?

It would give the show a role for Jason Ralph, and the provide the storytellers with an opportunity to explore different sides of the character: who he would have become if different choices had been made, and, possibly, a redemptive arc.

[festivus]

58 minutes ago, kieyra said:

It was hard for me not to post about the way this hit me personally. But since someone else has ...

Yeah, I'm already fighting the depression monster right now. But I watch a lot of scripted TV and rarely get too emotionally invested in much of it. This one hit way, way too hard, especially for a show I had only recently discovered. I woke up in the middle of the night, and again in the morning, being upset about it. Which is very unlike me. 

Yeah, that's me. I don't usually get this emotionally invested in tv characters  but since I'm already down, this one hit me harder than I thought even though I saw it coming.

I'll watch the show next year because there are still characters I love but it will not be the same show without Quentin. They better make his loss felt is all I have to say. I will be pissed if we go straight into the usual whirlwind without seeing them deal with it.

ETA: If anyone is looking for a positive show right now to lift your spirits I suggest Schitt's Creek. Not only do they have one of the best gay couples on television, they are just one of the best couples period. I'm rarely into romantic stuff but David and Patrick will steal your heart. Plus the show is just hella funny. End PSA

Edited April 18, 2019 by festivus

[jujybean]

Even though I read spoilers this morning and knew what to expect, I still found this to be a beautifully sad conclusion to Quentins story.  Thinking everyone's tears could fill the magical reservoir. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by jujybean

[tennisgurl]

55 minutes ago, kieyra said:

I mentioned upthread the Lexa/Clarke controversy from The 100, and that's what this most reminds me of*.

Thats funny you mentioned it, because when I was watching last night, I even thought "so is this what Clexa fans felt like a few years ago?" for a minute. I mean, show reveals that their supposedly heterosexual main character is bisexual, soaps up the woke points, only for death to separate them from their same gender lover almost instantly? Yeah, I see that. 

I slept on it, and my heart still hurts. Its been awhile since I felt this depressed about a characters death, so...points for making me care I guess. I do hope that at least we get a lot of good follow up to this next season, and they dont just jump into wacky hijinks and dick themed mountains and stuff. I am trying to be objective and take my shipper glasses off, but I still dont like how they never gave Q and Elliot any form of resolution or closure, if Quentin absolutely had to die. I've read articles where the show runners talk about why they did what they did, and had Quentin die so suddenly without saying goodbye to any of his loved ones, and it all seems to boil down to "sometimes life sucks, and we wanted to show that", which...yeah thats true, and there is something to be said about trying to avoid super dramatic goodbyes and such, but...its also a TV show. Its a narrative, and we want things that make narrative sense. It might make sense in a real world way that Quentin would die before he got to find out how much Elliot loved him and regretted rejecting him, but does it make sense for a character or narrative perspective? Look, I hate to think that these creators could be that cynical, but adding the whole episode about Q/Elliot possibly starting a relationship together, knowing that Quentin would die without ever having another conversation with Elliot ever again after their one second when Elliot let him know he was alive, just seems like an attempt to bait the audience that craves more LGBTQ representation, only to pull back at the last minute, make Qs death about his "safer" love interest, and scold that same audience for wanting what seemed to be set up as a queer romance as them not accepting "realism" or whatever, so they dont actually have to make a full on queer love story and what they would mean, but can still brag about how woke they are. I dont think that shows should change stories that make sense just because of bad optics or whatever (although they should at least keep it in mind) but this all looks pretty bad. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

What if an alternate-universe Q is "the dark king" ruling over Fillory now, who deposed Josh and Fen?

There are multiple ways they could still bring back Jason Ralph. I considered the fact that Margo and Eliot have apparently jumped 300 years into Fillory's future, and it's possible they may have to travel back in time to "fix" whatever happened to Fen and Josh. Therefore it might be possible for them to go back and prevent Quentin's death too.

That said, this really felt like a permanent ending for Quentin, with the montages of him in past episodes and him walking thru the doorway in the Underworld. I don't have the sense that the writers killed Quentin off because they felt it was germane to the story. I suspect they did it for shock value, a sort of cheap and unearned emotional gut-punch they knew would get everyone talking. And more importantly something critics would praise them for and promote them for.

[Jynnan tonnix]

2 hours ago, chrisvee said:

Yeah. I think the Monster plot would have had legs bc Fillory apparently needs a god and redeemed Monster v Everett could have been a thing.

Especially since we saw him mulling over the beauty of a leaf and feeling sad he has no name.

That's honestly what I expected to see for a minute there...It seemed that the monster mulling over the beauty of that leaf indicated that he was redeemable. It also even crossed my mind that rather than Everett, it might somehow be possible for Julia to regain her goddess powers by way of a redeemed monster. Lots of ways for it to work out.

Quentin was not one of my favorite characters either, but the Eliot/Quentin dynamic was such a strong undercurrent running through the show that it's going to feel so empty without it. I love Eliot, but imagine that his character will feel incomplete without Q. 

I'm sure I'll probably still watch next season because I'll be too curious as to what they will do next not to at least check it out, but after this season having been relatively disappointing after season 3, I don't imagine my heart will be in it. 😢

[treasaigh]

On 4/18/2019 at 12:36 PM, JTMacc99 said:

Certainly a reasonable take on it.

My take is that Quentin's reconciliation with Alice was necessary to show that he had shaken off one of the things that was a key part of his depression.  Not that he was sad about not having Alice in his life. That's not it at all.

In his explanation to Alice in episode 12 about maybe trying again with her, he says that he's finally learned to stop judging people against how he felt things should be. After watching this episode, that scene makes more sense to me now. Quentin told us that he freed himself from one of his many childhood demons. When he did that, he found he could trust people, trust her. As Alice then pointed out, that trust should include himself. 

So as we get to this episode, the story has nothing to do with which person Quentin is going to have a romantic future with. It instead has everything to do with Quentin trusting himself, slaying his demons, embracing who he is (repairer of small things, a hero, a man who truly loves his friends), and bringing his story in timeline 40 to a sad ending for everybody (but him). 

Your take is certainly reasonable too.  

Everyone brings their perspective and baggage to a show.  So everyone is going to interpret what happens through their lenses.  

My lenses say that they could have done everything you say, without a romantic reconciliation.  I've seen someone post several times over the last couple weeks that the Quentin/Alice connection could have been made just as well if they came back together as friends only.  Which I *totally* agree with.  I'm sorry whoever you are.  Apparently, I'm too lazy to go back through the threads and find your name!  🙂

Why because he forgave himself does he have to get back together with a person he was *clearly and completely* over (as I saw it anyway).  To me, it felt too much like backsliding into something comfortable as a way to chase some happiness.  

And if it is, as you say "the story has nothing to do with which person Quentin is going to have a romantic future with." then it would have worked better if he and Alice decided to start over with a friendship FIRST before getting back together romantically.  Then Quentin could have died with TWO people destroyed by the idea of the romance that could have been if only Quentin hadn't died.  As it stands, Eliot not only loses one of his best friends but has to accept the man he wanted to commit himself to went back to his crazy ex-girlfriend.  

There's a thought.  How does this not destroy Eliot?  How does he not wonder what could have changed if only he said yes to Quentin?  Would he wonder how much harder Quentin would have worked to save him if they were in a relationship?  Does he wonder if Quentin would have hesitated to sacrifice himself if they were in a relationship?  How does this not become even more his biggest regret?  How does he live with that?  I assume that's part of what's in season 5.  Maybe.  Or maybe they just move past it without any real thought.  Yeah, I'm still bitter.  🙂

Edited April 23, 2019 by IPS Temp Admin

[Glory]

SO MUCH CRYING. OMG. I can't even remember the last time I cried this hard over a TV show. Buffy maybe? Seriously. 

I can't believe they just wrote off his character like that? @Pixel is correct. Quentin was the glue that held that group together. I have no idea what keeps them as friends now. 

I could maybe see this ending if this was the final season, but we know they're coming back for 5. Where do you go without Quentin? 

Also, Penny 40 - you still my fave, Bro. 

[Pixel]

6 hours ago, Miles said:

I hope Alice as head librarian is a fakeout. I couldn't think of a worse choice. 

But show-wise, it’s the best way to keep Alice relevant and involved. The only reason she was part of the group was her connection to Q. Without that, there’s no reason for them to interact with her anymore.  As head librarian, they’ll need her. 

[treasaigh]

4 minutes ago, Pixel said:

But show-wise, it’s the best way to keep Alice relevant and involved. The only reason she was part of the group was her connection to Q. Without that, there’s no reason for them to interact with her anymore.  As head librarian, they’ll need her. 

Or, you know, they could have spent this season building up relationships for her instead of making her all about Quentin.  Not a good look for Alice or the show.  

[kieyra]

Side note, is Mageina Tovah / Zelda leaving the show? 

[treasaigh]

So here's the other thing that's bothering me.  I read statements about how the showrunners really didn't want to send a pro-suicide message.  But I don't know how this *isn't* a somewhat pro-suicide message.  I just watched the fireside scene and while Penny40 talks about "You didn't want to leave that did you."  But honestly, why not?  He saved his friends.  They're sad, but they'll move on to new and different things.  They are okay without him.  They don't have him, but they have each other to help them get through it.

I know Quentin has struggled with suicidal thoughts, and it does make some sort of sense that he might wonder about his intention.  I just don't know that they really proved anything to me.  Not sure there was anything they could have done to prove it honestly.  So maybe they should have found a way to kill him off without it being his choice.  Random death is also very real and very tragic for everyone involved.  Sickness.  Accidents.  All valid choices that wouldn't have opened the door of suicide.

Edited to add:

In the Hollywood Reporter article, there is this quote.

You’re in the early stages of writing season five. What does that look like without Quentin?

"McNamara: It's interesting because not every character had the depth of relationship with Quentin that Julia, Eliot and Alice had. So it's interesting to really be realistic about it. There’s a bit of a clue to that in one of the final scenes of the finale where Margo and Eliot are in Fillory and she has this line about "I'm gonna find my man for some hot grief-banging," and then realizes she's being horribly insensitive to Eliot. "

Here's my question.  What relationship does everyone think Eliot and Quentin have?  Why would Margo think that Eliot would be hurt more by Quentin's death than she was?  The three of them were "best" friends, Margo's words, not mine.  So why wouldn't Margo assume Eliot is being hit harder?  Maybe that answer is in part of an episode I didn't watch yet????

Edited April 18, 2019 by treasaigh

[txvoodoo]

5 hours ago, Philbert said:

(unlike when Buffy Ann Summers threw herself off that tower 18 years ago)

Holy crap. I just felt all the weight of my years descend upon me. EIGHTEEN YEARS?

[The Companion]

57 minutes ago, treasaigh said:

Your take is certainly reasonable too.  

Everyone brings their perspective and baggage to a show.  So everyone is going to interpret what happens through their lenses.  

My lenses say that they could have done everything you say, without a romantic reconciliation.  I've seen someone post several times over the last couple weeks that the Quentin/Alice connection could have been made just as well if they came back together as friends only.  Which I *totally* agree with.  I'm sorry whoever you are.  Apparently, I'm too lazy to go back through the threads and find your name!  🙂

Why because he forgave himself does he have to get back together with a person he was *clearly and completely* over (as I saw it anyway).  To me, it felt too much like backsliding into something comfortable as a way to chase some happiness.  

And if it is, as you say "the story has nothing to do with which person Quentin is going to have a romantic future with." then it would have worked better if he and Alice decided to start over with a friendship FIRST before getting back together romantically.  Then Quentin could have died with TWO people destroyed by the idea of the romance that could have been if only Quentin hadn't died.  As it stands, Eliot not only loses one of his best friends but has to accept the man he wanted to commit himself to went back to his crazy ex-girlfriend.  

There's a thought.  How does this not destroy Eliot?  How does he not wonder what could have changed if only he said yes to Quentin?  Would he wonder how much harder Quentin would have worked to save him if they were in a relationship?  Does he wonder if Quentin would have hesitated to sacrifice himself if they were in a relationship?  How does this not become even more his biggest regret?  How does he live with that?  I assume that's part of what's in season 5.  Maybe.  Or maybe they just move past it without any real thought.  Yeah, I'm still bitter.  🙂

Poor Eliot has a lot to contend with. He clearly knew something of what was happening with the monster (and Julia seemed to really know so it may be that he got even more insight than we realize). Then he has to contend with facing his biggest regret with no possible resolution. I don't want destroyed Eliot. Actually I would LOVE to have seen him work through what the monster did in his body with Quentin. Ugh! But I feel so robbed of him this entire season.

[MissL]

So I rewatched the ending, because I'm a masochist and sometimes you need a good cry. Watching it knowing FOR SURE that there would be no miracle save for Q was even harder. 

But it also made me notice something I noticed the first time around but was too worked up about Q to mention. After Q dies and Penny and Alice escape the mirror world water leaks out of the mirrors. Was that supposed to be overflowing magic from Qs spell rebound? Something else?  I guess it could represent all of our collective tears.

[JTMacc99]

22 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Poor Eliot has a lot to contend with. He clearly knew something of what was happening with the monster (and Julia seemed to really know so it may be that he got even more insight than we realize). Then he has to contend with facing his biggest regret with no possible resolution. I don't want destroyed Eliot. Actually I would LOVE to have seen him work through what the monster did in his body with Quentin. Ugh! But I feel so robbed of him this entire season.

One would think that Eliot is going to be quite the interesting character in season 5. For as much as we were robbed of him in season 4, I'm guessing it will be the opposite in season 5. 

[chrisvee]

49 minutes ago, MissL said:

So I rewatched the ending, because I'm a masochist and sometimes you need a good cry. Watching it knowing FOR SURE that there would be no miracle save for Q was even harder. 

But it also made me notice something I noticed the first time around but was too worked up about Q to mention. After Q dies and Penny and Alice escape the mirror world water leaks out of the mirrors. Was that supposed to be overflowing magic from Qs spell rebound? Something else?  I guess it could represent all of our collective tears.

I thought it was magic leaking out that (presumably) causes the overpowered spells and Fillory issues we glimpse at the end.

I also fully expect the show to handwave away the impact of Q’s death after some token acknowledgement. After all Q didn’t even blink at El bleeding out on the ground in front of him. 

El’s emotional journey is going to be about getting that brave love interest that Q sacrificed himself to make possible both in the happy place and in life. Margo got her mediocre dude this season and El will get his next.

Edited April 18, 2019 by chrisvee

[Spaceman Spiff]

19 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

That was amazing. The idea of “did I do something heroic or just kill myself” is what I will always remember.  Of course Q thinks I that way. 

Did I do something extremely brave to save all my friends or did I finally find a way to kill myself. That line just gutted me, almost had me crying, but was delivered perfectly.

Take on Me, that song was so much better than the whole episode that was considered the musical.

[Philbert]

2 hours ago, txvoodoo said:

Holy crap. I just felt all the weight of my years descend upon me. EIGHTEEN YEARS?

May, 2001 believe it or not. The end of S5 and the last episode to air on the WB.

[AudienceofOne]

On 4/12/2019 at 2:32 PM, AudienceofOne said:

Having said that, Q&A at the end of this episode are very much in a S1 finale space. I do feel that's deliberate and the writers are deliberately framing what's happening in reference to season 1. I just don't feel they did the legwork to get there.

But in that vein - S1 did not end well for Alice. Assuming that Quentin has finally gotten his hero's journey by not being a hero at all, this could be the end for him.

*sigh*

I wish I'd been wrong. I have thoughts but need a moment.

[iMonrey]

Quote

JR exit interviews essentially say the EPs approached him at end of S3 to say they felt Q’s story was coming to an end and the wanted to do in this direction. 

What makes me bitter is that this is basically hogwash, to put it politely. They felt Quentin's story was coming to an end? Why? Translation: they didn't know what else to do with him, got tired of writing for him (as evidenced by the scant material he got this season), and wanted to do something different that would have been too tricky if Quentin was still around. The only limit to Quentin's story is the writers' imaginations. 

[The Companion]

3 hours ago, MissL said:

So I rewatched the ending, because I'm a masochist and sometimes you need a good cry. Watching it knowing FOR SURE that there would be no miracle save for Q was even harder. 

But it also made me notice something I noticed the first time around but was too worked up about Q to mention. After Q dies and Penny and Alice escape the mirror world water leaks out of the mirrors. Was that supposed to be overflowing magic from Qs spell rebound? Something else?  I guess it could represent all of our collective tears.

I thought the water was the magic lake water that had was released with Everett's death. Everyone reacted to the residual magic coming back and it was then stronger than they were used to. That fish magic is pretty impressive.

[ParadoxLost]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm sure I will watch next season, but I don't know that I'll ever enjoy it as much without Jason Ralph. He was just that important to the success of the show.

I'm going to try to watch next season with an open mind.  I loved season 2 and 3 enough that I feel like I need to give them a chance to make something great out of this.

But part of me thinks that the SyFy executive that was part of the discussion was standing in the corner rubbing his/her hands together, laughing manically at the opportunity to cancel another show at season 5 but this time without the PR nightmare.

But my gut reaction to the set up for next season was:

- Alice heading the library - I've never liked either separately, fast forward material together

-The hedge witches - nope.  Never worked for me before and no reason to think that I'll like anything about it going forward.  

-Julia has magic.  I bet she becomes a teacher aid or something at Bakebills.  Did I mention I hated season 1 that was all students at Brakebills all the time.

-Elliott/Margion 300yrs in Fillory's future. It sounds exhausting.  Fillory is my favorite thing about this show and it just sounds exhausting.  I've had too much Margo/Elliott adjusting to Fillory.  I needed more of the cast to be in Fillory, but no.

Quote

From the PR release...We want The Magicians to visit strange and fascinating new places, and we know we can’t get there by treading the same garden path others have before us. 

Laudable sentiment.  So why does it feel like the writers set up for a season 5 retread of all the stuff they've done before.  I kind of needed something else to talk about besides.  "You killed Quentin!  You bastards"

6 hours ago, owenthurman said:

It would give the show a role for Jason Ralph, and the provide the storytellers with an opportunity to explore different sides of the character: who he would have become if different choices had been made, and, possibly, a redemptive arc.

Don't think so.  The press release isn't being cagey at all.  They aren't just talking about why "Quentin" had to die.  They are talking about why Jason had to leave the show.

Although I wouldn't be surprised if there was a guest spot(s) from the underworld or another timeline. But frankly, I'm annoyed enough about this that I think that might not be a good thing.  I'd enjoy it but I think it would ultimately piss me off.

When Angel went to the spin off, all Buffy's visits and mentions did was make me hate that show.  It was a gradual thing and a pouring of salt in wounds.

3 hours ago, MissL said:

Was that supposed to be overflowing magic from Qs spell rebound? Something else?  I guess it could represent all of our collective tears.

I thought it was Alice's tears/grief.

But @The Companion explanation makes more sense.

Edited April 19, 2019 by ParadoxLost

[chrisvee]

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.

[TexasGal]

2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Did I do something extremely brave to save all my friends or did I finally find a way to kill myself. That line just gutted me, almost had me crying, but was delivered perfectly.

Take on Me, that song was so much better than the whole episode that was considered the musical.

Yep and yep.  I was getting teary with that line.  They started singing and the waterworks started.  Then Eliot joined in the song and I was ugly crying.  

I had been somewhat spoiled by seeing a headline online somewhere this morning about a shocking death and the picture was Alice with Penny in the doorway so I figured it had to be Q.  Damn.  I love Q.

[Whimsy]

5 hours ago, Glory said:

SO MUCH CRYING. OMG. I can't even remember the last time I cried this hard over a TV show. Buffy maybe? Seriously. 

I came here to say essentially the same thing, but the last time I remember crying this much over a character death is Wesley’s death in Angel. That gutted me. 

I seriously thought this was a season finale the way penny was telling Q what everyone was doing now. I was actually upset because those typically end on happy notes and I couldn’t see how Margo and Elliot’s stories ended on a tragic one, so I guess I’m glad there’s another season. I will miss Jason Ralph tremendously. 

[tennisgurl]

So, this is where I’m at. I was out with friends for dinner tonight, when all of the sudden...the place was playing Take on Me. I ordered another drink and went to the bathroom to cry. Dear. God. 

[Hanahope]

If Jason comes back next season, maybe he’s playing the dark king who took over Fillory.  Remember Quentin had a son in ADay in the Life, so perhaps that sons’ descendant is the dark king who happens to look just like Quentin.

I am sad that Elliot didn’t get to say goodbye to Q.  

What was the secret Q took to the grave?  Isn’t that why Penny40 was meeting him?

[chrisvee]

27 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So, this is where I’m at. I was out with friends for dinner tonight, when all of the sudden...the place was playing Take on Me. I ordered another drink and went to the bathroom to cry. Dear. God. 

I think they’ve ruined that song for me.

😞

Was his secret that he was afraid he had committed suicide?

Edited April 19, 2019 by chrisvee

[ParadoxLost]

15 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So, this is where I’m at. I was out with friends for dinner tonight, when all of the sudden...the place was playing Take on Me. I ordered another drink and went to the bathroom to cry. Dear. God. 

Holy crap.  How did you make it to the bathroom in time?

Were you forced to explain why a ha made you a sobbing mess?

I wonder of the fake resurrection of Quentin that they filmed was a parody of the music video and Quentin died and then broke through the comic book mirror to return to the people he loved.  I bet it was.

25 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

What was the secret Q took to the grave?  Isn’t that why Penny40 was meeting him?

I think the point is that no one gets past Penny40 until they tell their last secret.  And it was whether or not Quentin died to save his friends or subconsciously found a way to commit suicide.  In show it sounded like he decided he was being heroic.  In the interviews, the producers are throwing out sound bites that are muddying the waters in a way I don't think they intend.

I don't usually buy into all the stuff and outrage that comes up around the larger societal context around a fictional character's death.

But I have to say that that I can see where those upset about the bury your gays trope and the message the show is sending about suicide are coming from with this one.  I also got a weird feeling about Fillory 300 years in the future and that they were making a bit of a caricature of slavery.

In other news, Penny40 is so mellow that I'm not sure I care if he is ever depicted on screen again.

And did Penny23 ever use whatever Penny40 gave him?

[theatremouse]

Can someone explain to me what Penny said to Julia about making the choice for her? I'm feeling stupid. He said this choice saved her, and he didn't want to lose her again, but by making her human didn't that mean he's guaranteed to lose him again at some point? I know before that the wound was closing and reopening itself over and over, but I thought that was because he body was still in its weird halvsies mode. If she chose full goddess, couldn't she have been OK? or no because of the ice picks? But if human were the only actual viable choice...then why'd they even present it as a choice?

I was very underwhelmed by all the Quentin stuff. Even before he said his secret taken to the grave, I thought he was going in there to kill himself. Not necessarily as suicidal, but that he'd realize the seam mission could kill him and was chill with that. Based on the stairs conversation. If he thought he was going to get out of there alive he wouldn't have hesitated when Everett showed up. He should've already thrown the thing and not let his toss be interrupted. So I knew then he'd doomed himself.

[tennisgurl]

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Were you forced to explain why a ha made you a sobbing mess?

Oh yeah, I came back all puffy eyed and clearly upset, and I had to explain I was triggered by a damn 80s song from a damn Tv show on the damn SyFy network. I had to go into the whole plot line, which just made me upset again. 

...damn it *goes off into corner to cry more*

Edited April 19, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Poltargyst]

5 hours ago, chrisvee said:

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.

Thank you, Buffy.  And Dawn.

[AngelKitty]

So I just started taking anti-depressants recently because I was crying all the time but now it seems I can't cry at all. Let me tell you, I would have been sobbing otherwise. I wasn't expecting Quentin to die at all but I think this really is the end for Quentin. Also, this episode showed me that Penny40 is truly gone. He's changed too much to come back as himself.

[Sister Spooky]

One thing I noticed, Q never drank the hot chocolate that Penny40 gave him.  I took that as a good sign since Penny40 didn't go all Underworld Yay! until after he ate the cupcake.

[iMonrey]

Quote

If Jason comes back next season, maybe he’s playing the dark king who took over Fillory.  Remember Quentin had a son in ADay in the Life, so perhaps that sons’ descendant is the dark king who happens to look just like Quentin.

But that was in another timeline that Margo effectively wiped out.

Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly welcome Jason in another role, but it won't minimize the sting of losing our Quentin. I just can't help feeling it was a fundamental and structural error to kill him off. There have been other TV shows that wrote the main character out of the show but it's no longer the same show. It's a different show with the same title. I suppose the writers thought they could get away with it because they think the show is more of an ensemble piece, but the reality is that the story began with Quentin (and, to a lesser extent, Julia). We met everyone through Quentin. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

2 hours ago, Sister Spooky said:

One thing I noticed, Q never drank the hot chocolate that Penny40 gave him.  I took that as a good sign since Penny40 didn't go all Underworld Yay! until after he ate the cupcake.

You know, I was thinking along those lines when Penny handed him the hot chocolate, but, in my typical ADD fashion, managed to neglect noticing whether or not he ultimately drank it. Still, I suspect it's rather a moot point by now. I think that once someone takes the Underworld Metro it's pretty much a done deal. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Jynnan tonnix

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

But that was in another timeline that Margo effectively wiped out.

I don't think it was entirely wiped out, because Jane still got the watch from Quentin. I think his son still existed. But I don't really see Jason Ralph coming back as the Dark King. Maybe it's Plover? Assuming it's someone we know at all.

On 4/18/2019 at 1:26 PM, iMonrey said:

I . . . did not like this. Ever since the elevator scene foreshadowed an important death I have had a sinking feeling the show was going to kill off a major character just to show how daring and edgy they are. But killing off the (arguably) main character is a step too far. This whole story began with Quentin. It's like killing off Rick on The Walking Dead. Can they still make The Magicians without Quentin? Sure, but it's not the same show. It's more like a sequel or a spin-off.

I disagree. The Magicians has been increasingly an ensemble show. This past season especially, Quentin has appeared less and everyone has had their own story. And the show itself has stated at least twice this season that Quentin isn't really the main character. I'm just as invested in all the others as I was in him, if not more so. So I think the show continues just fine with them. And I'm looking forward to seeing the real Eliot again.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[kieyra]

The show can try to “tell” us that the main character isn’t really the main character, but he was still the main character and our entry into the world of magic. 

If I’m being honest, the cast has always contained a little too much sprawl to begin with, and has always been too invested in shifting focus to tertiary characters for my tastes. I needed the core group, starting with Quentin, as an anchor. To me the core was Quentin, Alice, Eliot, Margo, Penny. (Julia and Kady are frequently FF material for me.) 

Maybe it’s not the way the show runners wanted me to consume their show, but them’s the breaks. If you don’t like white-male-hero’s-journey, don’t use that template and cast your lead as a white male. 

(Yeah, I’m still mad.)

Edited April 19, 2019 by kieyra

[ParadoxLost]

9 hours ago, AngelKitty said:

Also, this episode showed me that Penny40 is truly gone. He's changed too much to come back as himself.

Yeah.  That struck me too.  There is no more hope that Penny40 will snap out of it and find a loophole to reunite with the group.  He just doesn't exist anymore.  Its too bad I'm not even interested in getting a glimpse of what Penny40 is up to anymore.  Time for Kady to move on.  Hope they come up with something other than leader of hedge witches.  It would also be great if Penny23 developed some kind of personality beyond if my Julia is dead, I'm gonna worship whatever Julia I come across.

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I disagree. The Magicians has been increasingly an ensemble show. This past season especially, Quentin has appeared less and everyone has had their own story. And the show itself has stated at least twice this season that Quentin isn't really the main character. I'm just as invested in all the others as I was in him, if not more so. So I think the show continues just fine with them. And I'm looking forward to seeing the real Eliot again.

Well yes,, they have been making it increasingly a more ensemble show and demphasizing Quentin this season.  They had to as part of the plan to kill off Quentin.

I actually think the show has been pretty ensemble since season s2.  The problem for me is that if I think about the remaining ensemble there are several weak links in terms of integration.  Penny40 had a lot of relationships that worked, but he's gone.  Quentin was the bridge that brought everyone else together. So are we now in for a show that is basically three barely connected storylines?  Julia, Kady, Penny 23 off doing something.  Elliot and Margo off doing something.  Alice on her own.  

I think best case is I'm fast forwarding two out of three of those.

7 minutes ago, kieyra said:

If I’m being honest, the cast has always contained a little too much sprawl to begin with, and has always been too invested in shifting focus to tertiary characters for my tastes. I needed the core group, starting with Quentin, as an anchor. To me the core was Quentin, Alice, Eliot, Margo, Penny. (Julia and Kady are frequently FF material for me.) 

(Yeah, I’m still mad.)

I seem to be getting madder.  I need to stop reading interviews.  It frustrates me that they keep claiming to have killed off Quentin to open up strorytelling opportunities  but at the same time gave the most banal and obvious set up for what characters would be doing next season.  I think I would be less irritated if they didn't have Penny40 tell Quentin what would happen to all his friends next to make him accept the Underworld metropass because all it did for me was make think was that the are creatively bankrupt and Quentin's death was a desperate attempt to reignite their inspiration that failed.

[AudienceofOne]

So here are my thoughts now that i've had time to collect them. I should have probably rewatched but I haven't because I don't particularly want to.

My issue with this final episode remains the issue I have had for the last few - nothing seemed organic, I could see the writer's fingerprints on everything that happened and it felt manipulative in all the wrong ways.

For a start, all of this was rushed. And if they really had a season to think this through, they wouldn't have had to jerk their characters around so much to get them into their Season 1 positions. I get the point was to make the allusion to Quentin's original non-hero's journey - his epic realisation he wasn't the hero and his decision to give that role to Alice. Quentin finally got to sacrifice himself for his friends - I mean, he's been trying to do it almost every finale - but the entire point of the setup we got was that he and Alice face the threat together and live together. I feel like this undermines a whole heap of points this show has previously been making about exactly the kinds of narratives that end this way. 

Don't get me started on the last-minute hookups between characters to get them into a certain emotional space for the final scenes. None of them feel organic and we didn't need Alice and Quentin to be a couple to finally stand together at the end.

Basically I feel let down but not in an angry, emotional way. In a 'meh' way that I'm not used to feeling with this show. After four seasons this show has decided to become... just a television show. And that's a bit of a letdown.

Finally, as I said I haven't rewatched it so maybe it would make more sense if I did. I still don't know HOW Quentin died or why the mirror sucked him and Everett in to begin with. And that's a big problem with my emotional response to the death.

[ParadoxLost]

42 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Basically I feel let down but not in an angry, emotional way. In a 'meh' way that I'm not used to feeling with this show. After four seasons this show has decided to become... just a television show. And that's a bit of a letdown.

Finally, as I said I haven't rewatched it so maybe it would make more sense if I did. I still don't know HOW Quentin died or why the mirror sucked him and Everett in to begin with. And that's a big problem with my emotional response to the death.

This is an excellent way to say how I'm feeling.  I got too invested in this show's quality.  I should have known better.

i don't think the mirror sucked them in.  I think that his use of magic in the mirror realm and created sparks, a lot of them, that for lack of a better term ashed or disintegrated them.  

[mammaM]

3 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Basically I feel let down but not in an angry, emotional way. In a 'meh' way that I'm not used to feeling with this show. After four seasons this show has decided to become... just a television show. And that's a bit of a letdown.

2 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

This is an excellent way to say how I'm feeling.  I got too invested in this show's quality.  I should have known better.

Yes, yes, yes. This is how I felt. This whole season has felt different, and while I really liked parts of it (I still can't believe I ship Margo & Josh: Jargo?, Mosh? 😂😂) too much of it felt like a set-up for......well, Q's death.

PS: and I know it's petty, but I'm still pissed that the writers made me LOVE Elliot's "peaches and plums motherfucker" for nothing

[Hobo.PassingThru]

3 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

So here are my thoughts now that i've had time to collect them. I should have probably rewatched but I haven't because I don't particularly want to.

My issue with this final episode remains the issue I have had for the last few - nothing seemed organic, I could see the writer's fingerprints on everything that happened and it felt manipulative in all the wrong ways.

For a start, all of this was rushed. And if they really had a season to think this through, they wouldn't have had to jerk their characters around so much to get them into their Season 1 positions. I get the point was to make the allusion to Quentin's original non-hero's journey - his epic realisation he wasn't the hero and his decision to give that role to Alice. Quentin finally got to sacrifice himself for his friends - I mean, he's been trying to do it almost every finale - but the entire point of the setup we got was that he and Alice face the threat together and live together. I feel like this undermines a whole heap of points this show has previously been making about exactly the kinds of narratives that end this way. 

Don't get me started on the last-minute hookups between characters to get them into a certain emotional space for the final scenes. None of them feel organic and we didn't need Alice and Quentin to be a couple to finally stand together at the end.

Basically I feel let down but not in an angry, emotional way. In a 'meh' way that I'm not used to feeling with this show. After four seasons this show has decided to become... just a television show. And that's a bit of a letdown.

Finally, as I said I haven't rewatched it so maybe it would make more sense if I did. I still don't know HOW Quentin died or why the mirror sucked him and Everett in to begin with. And that's a big problem with my emotional response to the death.

That's almost what I intended to write.

Even the choppiness at the beginning was rushed and led to me being slightly confused about the time they were establishing. That settled down after a short while. However, the forced aspect of the story bugged me throughout most of it.

In that way for me, this finale was like last year's finale: it felt like I could see the writer just making choices to get to the desired ending for the episode, and, getting to the end of the season, and, setting up the cliffhangers for next season.

Sure, it is a TV show; it's episodic. So, the cliffhanger part is expected for a season finale. But, the way the show sets up the ending and the next chapter seems so forced.

Count me as one of the viewers who hasn't read the books and who also hated all of the characters in the first season, except for Dean Fogg and the goat god. But, after season two settled in, I began liking some of the characters. By season three, I hated different ones and liked ones I hated in season two.

Season three was great except for how they set up this season in the finale. Maybe it should not have surprised me that this season would have so many clunky parts and less of season three's flow from episode to episode.

The ending though just put the icing on the crap cake. Quinton told Penny 23 to drag Alice away before they went to the mirror world. So, when things went sideways and when Quinton fixed the mirror I was stunned that was the plan. It was a bad plan. And, sure, I know they tend to screw things up. But, if Quinton was going to use magic then all bets were off. Penny23 could have teleported to Quinton with Alice and then out of the room back to the mirror door. That could have been the plan. But they intentional did the "hero's sacrifice" when it really didn't seem needed. 

Pardon me for having looked up how the third book went but I was looking forward to seeing how that might play out given what has happened on the show. I wasn't into any of the relationships happening or not. I just wanted to see how all of these characters mature in the time they are there.

And, what happened with Julia over the past three seasons was messed up. It's great she has magic but has she been allowed to make any major life decisions that determine her destiny? She didn't get into Brakebills until timeline 40; she became a god; she lost her god powers; her goddess got killed before her eyes; Penny 23 (and his crappy choices) chose her direction for her.

Reading a bit about what the writers said about the episode: honestly, they were rationalizing forcing a certain story, a story that was just unexpected. That's great. Twilight Zone it up a bit. But, it seemed like they were dozing off at the wheel and missed a turn off and became fully awake to realize they were lost. Well, okay. That's how I felt.

[steelyis]

4 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Well yes,, they have been making it increasingly a more ensemble show and demphasizing Quentin this season.  They had to as part of the plan to kill off Quentin.

To me The Magicians has always been an ensemble. Q was never my entry character because I did not like him until season 3. I kept watching despite him being the "lead" character.

I'll miss the fuck out of Quentin, but I will be watching next season because I love the other characters just as much as I love Q.

[SnoGirl]

I finally watched it-and bummed about how it ended. I love that Quentin got his hero moment, especially mending something small but...I feel really tricked and baited. I am really mad.

I might be on my own with this, but with this finale, I suddenly feel like this entire season was filler. Quentin was miserable all season. We see the start of possibly a fun and frankly fresh couple with Q and Eliot. Julia repeats her story-choices being made for her. Penny doesnt really grow. Kadi and Margo see some growth, but let’s be honest, they’ve both always have been badasses. Josh and Margo are a surprise. Fen is Queen of Fillory. 

They spend the entire freakin’ season apart. And don’t even get a moment at the end to be together. Ugh. And I am mad about the Eliot and Quentin tease. It’s almost emotional entrapment. They got me good with it and it crushes me even more that Q never knows what Eliot’s biggest regret is. And then they freakin have Quentin and Alice repeat?

Last season makes me mad now too. They’ve known since Season Three they wanted to kill Quentin?? Because now Eliot and Quentin’s lifetime in Fillory feels tainted too. “Here we know they’ll never have this lifetime so we’ll have it be part of the Quest.” I hope Eliot tells everyone that he and Quentin had a son and a lifetime together. I want that to be a scene we see and not hear about.

They should have pitched this episode to be two hours. Maybe then it wouldn’t have seemed to be over in a flash-it really seemed rushed just to get to that ending. And I think killing Quentin is a monstrous mistake. I think I’m going to have to read about the first couple of episodes for next season before watching them. I’ve never wanted something more than this to be a bait and switch.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode: