S08.E01: Winterfell

[Friendly kitty]

14 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

But, seriously, for all of her strengths, Dany really doesn't have any tact, does she? 

Agree. She played in the queen. He thinks if John bent his knee in front of her, then the rest should do the same. Not! She needs to learn to negotiate with people, learn diplomacy ...

Edited April 15, 2019 by Friendly kitty

[tennisgurl]

This whole season could apparently be summed up with that part in Monty Python and the Holy Grail with Lancelot at the wedding. "Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who..."

That awkward moment when you realize that you killed your boyfriends best friends dad and brother, right Danny? It was especially sad because, while Sam understandably couldn't stand his awful dad, he was still his dad, but he could at least probably get over that pretty fast...until Danny mentioned that she also executed his brother, who he actually liked. I am sure that Sam will put it aside for the greater good and all that, but thats still really freaking awkward. 

"His eyes are blue!" "My eyes are always blue!" Poor young Lord Umber though. The Night King isnt just evil, he is getting artistic in his evil. 

Sansa is so not buying what Danny is selling, and its hard to tell why as of now. Does she not like having this queen around who she doesent know, due to her understandable trust issues? Does she hate the idea of giving up power? Is this just a sister being suspicious of her brothers new girlfriend, especially everything that has happened to her family? Or does she just think that Danny is arrogant and doesent have much to back it up hat isnt big and scaly? 

I think that Danny is floundering a bit in the North. Her attitude with the slavers and most of the other people she has conquered has been a quiet kind of confidence/arrogance, depending on how you look at it, but that isnt working here. She isnt going against enemies, but her allys, people that she wants to one day rule over on a day to day basis. Just having the dragons around for shock and awe isnt going to do that long term. For someone who has conquered so much stuff, she has never really ruled very long, especially a kingdom she really knows very little about beyond what she has heard from others. 

Its fun seeing all of the reunions between everyone, I love that all of the disparate characters from all of the different plots are all converging into one plot in one place. Arya and Jon was so heartwarming (its the first time the surviving Stark kids have all been together in Winterfell since the start of the show!) Arya and Genry made my shipper heart swell, as did Theon finally saving Yara, and even Sansa and Tyrion and Arya and the Hound were nice to see. 

Nice to see that Davos is still the smartest guy in every room he enters. 

[JayBird23]

The North has no confidence in Jon or Daenerys to lead. Jon disappoints again by backing down from leadership even though he was elected. Daenerys comes in with two dragons and a follow-me-or-burn attitude.  No sales pitch, no plan, no humility. This is why neither one of the two belong on the Throne. This is why people hate on Daenerys.

Tyrion and Verys have brains but don't look like kings or act like kings. So where are we? Who can lead? I have no idea. Were dealing with a lot of dummies. When Cersei found out the Night King and his army had dropped the wall and were on their way south, she said, "Good." She want's them to destroy all her enemies and then she'll clean up the mess. Not a bad idea if you can tell me how she dodges the Dead Army.

Maybe she thinks she's not a target right now and she may be right. In many ways, I hate to say it, Cercei at least has a plan. Dany's Dragons are no match for the Night King and his death javelin, he already showed his Olympic acuity. Why shouldn't Cercei roll the dice? 

Edited April 15, 2019 by JayBird23

[30 Helens]

4 hours ago, Drogo said:

I love Sam 'The Wizard' Tarly as much as the next person, but his father was a dick and his brother was a fool.

Daenerys considered sending Randyll to the Wall at Tyrion's suggestion when he wouldn't bend the knee, but he quickly told her she couldn't because she's Not My Queen. *You don't say that shit to a woman with dragons.* And IIRC stupid Dickon inserted himself when the death sentence had already been issued. 

There's just no reason for this episode to act like Daenerys should be ashamed of her decision to roast the Tarlys. 

Agree. Also, Dany doesn’t have the luxury of softening a sentence once she’s declared it. To listen to Tyrion and say “Ok, never mind, you can just go to the wall instead” would have painted her as weak. I don’t find Dany arrogant; I think she’s displaying the kind of confidence and decisiveness that she needs to in order to be taken seriously as a tiny little blonde woman I n a man’s world. 

For the same reason, she couldn’t back down and apologize to Sam, even if she was sorry. And she wasn’t—those dimwits sealed their own fate. They were the arrogant ones in that scenario. I did see sympathy in her eyes when she told Sam, because she’s not a monster, but really, how else could she have handled that reveal?

4 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

Arya and Gendry, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G.  Oooh, that look. 

Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I don’t see any chemistry there at all. As friends, sure, but not romantically. Frankly, the only character I might see as a love match for Arya, aside from the age difference, is Brienne.  Or maybe Hot Pie. She does like his cooking.

[VCRTracking]

When Bran told Sam Jon wasn't his brother for a moment I thought he meant that he was now the "Three Eyed Raven" but then I realized he meant Jon's actually his cousin!

Arya and Jon's reunion was the highlight for me. "Once or Twice." was both funny and heartbreaking.

[ulkis]

15 hours ago, Drogo said:

Daenerys considered sending Randyll to the Wall at Tyrion's suggestion when he wouldn't bend the knee, but he quickly told her she couldn't because she's Not My Queen. *You don't say that shit to a woman with dragons.* And IIRC stupid Dickon inserted himself when the death sentence had already been issued. 

There's just no reason for this episode to act like Daenerys should be ashamed of her decision to roast the Tarlys. 

imo, the set up was there as soon as she killed them. It was never gonna be Sam going, "oh, okay, you had to have them killed? Well I feel awkward but okay!" He might get there, but that was never gonna be his first reaction.

Edited April 15, 2019 by ulkis

[Friendly kitty]

21 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I don’t see any chemistry there at all. As friends, sure, but not romantically.

Agree. They were just originally good friends, experienced a lot ... I would not want a romantic connection between Arya and Gendry. Let them be just good friends and loyal comrades. Although I think the way it is. Arya has gone through too much of everything, her heart is closed to romance. Maybe later, a few years after everything is over, she can fall in love ... But not now.

[dr pepper]

6 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think Dany now that she actually has two armies, has been proclaimed the Queen of the North, and has Jon by her side is letting her true colors show. She's always had a ruthless, nasty edge and an entitled attitude about ruling. But in the past she never really had enough power to show it off. Now she does. It will be interesting whether her downfall will be her attitude that she's the queen and that's all there is to it.

Right until the moment she was traded to Drago, her whole personality was subjugated by her brother's. And that was what, 3 years ago? 5 maybe? He was her first and most thorough role model for ambition and power lust. After that, what did she learn from the drothraki? You're either the khan, or you follow a khan. And the size of your tribe depends on how many other tribes you conquer. And if your tribe isn't growing, it's probably shrinking. And from the cultured cities of the east, she learned that liberation is a relative thing: slaves want freedom, ex-slaves want dominance.

She's the Mother, the Mother who knows what's good for everyone, the Mother who will make the lives of the people better by keeping them in line.

[dr pepper]

Scene: Tyrion and Jaime are having a moment.

Tyrion: So.

Jaime: So.

Tyrion: So.

Jaime: Is there any wine left, or have i come too late?

FX: CLICK!

(Both turn. It's Bronn with a loaded crossbow)

Jaime and Tyrion: Bronn!

Bronn: Don't move!

Jaime: Really, Bronn? Do you think you can get both of us?

(Bronn shoots the ground by Jaime's foot, slams another bolt in, cocks and shoots a bolt into the ground near Tyrion's foot, then slams another bolt in and cocks it.)

Tyrion (holds hands out): Easy now.

Bronn: The bid stands at 2 chests full of prewar, unadulterated Lannister gold. Is there another.

Jaime: And how do you think you'll be able to spend any gold with the land overrun by zombies?

Tyrion: Ignore him, he's just feeling a little pessimistic today. I expect that Queen Danerys will be wanting a new capital, so i offer you the lordship of King's Landing. But you'll have to do more than not shoot us, you'll have to stay here and shoot the zombies.

Bronn: is there a brothel here?

[dr pepper]

6 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Well, saving Yara sure seemed like a handwave, didn't it?  At this point, I'm hoping The Kraken just ups and eats the entire Iron Islands in one gulp with all of them on it.

Cersei seemed disappointed that only 20,000 Gold Company men came.  Banging what was essentially a pirate was icing on a disappointment cake, I think.

And, like losing The Night's Watch, Jon is losing The North.  God, I hope he doesn't become king.

The whole Dany and Jon kissing thing make me want to clean myself with chicken feet.  But, now that the truth is in the air, that'll probably stop.

Stop following the Targaryan imperative? Why?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

LOVED the new and improved credits!

I loved that the opening scene was a parade of many of the men who have been in Arya's life. Jaqen H’ghar was the only one missing! When that kid started climbing the tree to get a better look, I was reminded of sweet little Bran in the very first episode.

One of my favorite moments was when Arya and Jon hugged and the show just let everything be silent - no dialogue, no musical score, just the two of them after so many years apart. Then I giggled when I saw that they had matching mini buns on the backs of their heads.

I loved all of Arya's reunions. I enjoy her friendship with Gendry and I loved that neither Arya nor the Hound has sentimentalized their relationship in the time since they last saw each other.

I was surprised that Cersei deigned to bang Euron. Normally she would have strung him along on principle just because she knows he wants to and she doesn't have to. Then I remembered that she's already knocked up and needs a baby daddy (again!).

Love that Theon wants to fight with the Starks. I'm afraid that means he is definitely going to die before the season is over.

Ha, the look on Jaime's face when he saw Bran was priceless!

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Jacob Anderson finally being added to the main credits gives me hope Grey Worm won't die in the first few eps.

I watched Buffy so it made me afraid that Grey Worm was going to die by the end of this episode!

Edited April 15, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[dr pepper]

6 hours ago, Lemuria said:

like a horse's patoot

MASH reference!

[MissLucas]

Well, I'm glad the Tarly roasting has consequences (I don't care how much of an ass old Tarly was - Dany had been warned about this and she had been offered options). 

Not impressed by the Fuchur-montage. Also not impressed by the fact that nobody mentions to the 'I have dragons!'-Queen that after only one encounter with the Night King she's already down one dragon. So far the only person who noticed was Cersei. And they quickly brushed over the little info that the Night King now has a dragon. I think that should have had a bit more impact.

Good points about the North fearing that Jon is pulling a Robb 2.0. Of course Jon doesn't see it that way but the more goats and horses those dragons eat the harder it will get to convince people otherwise. And Dany still has to learn how to win the hearts of people she hasn't freed from slavery.

Bran was probably the episode's MVP: Loved his impatient 'we don't have time for this' to Dany and Sansa's little sparring session. Choosing the right moment to push Sam into dropping that truth bomb on cousin Jon and timing his little moment to get fresh air so that it coincides with Jaimie's arrival.

[dr pepper]

6 hours ago, Barbara Please said:

When the hooded man rode into Winterfell, I was hoping it was Jaqen H’ghar. I miss that sexy mofo. 

Heh. I was actually thinking, hmm, the episode is almost over, where's Jaime? Oh, tall man in a hood and they don't show his face-- there he is!

[dr pepper]

6 hours ago, enoughcats said:

But who among the current crop of leaders is willing to die? 

Remember back at Blackwater Bay Battle, when Cersei was about six inches from killing Tommen and herself?  

Someone commented that Jon would and Deny wouldn't.  Even the Margery's grandmother was able to drink poison.  The Blackfish....  

(Wondering where Brienne was.  One thing we do know, she's probably not disguised as a peasant and spying on someone.) 

She was in the third row of the receiving line, reading to surge out in front of Sansa if needed.

[dr pepper]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I think Jaime is  the "old friend" that Bran was waiting for.

Oh that was my thought as soon as he said it.

[dr pepper]

5 hours ago, Dobian said:

It's really time they rigged some saddles on those dragons, flight safety is an important issue in Westeros.

Heh, with Dani's companion (forgot her name) standing in front making arm motions. "Now in case of a water landing, don't panic, it just means that the dragon saw a big fish, or a whale. Hold your breath until the dragon is finished eating and you'll be back in the air momentarily. This is a no smoking flight, except of course for the dragon. Use the airsickness bag in the front pouch if you need to, but of course that will prove you have no Targaryan ancestry. Keep your arms and legs tucked in in case of ballista shots."

Edited April 15, 2019 by dr pepper

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Drogo said:

Or 

"Poor girl. The pox will get her within the year."

"Which girl?"

Qyburn needs to clarify for Bronn if this pox is also an STD.....

Edited April 15, 2019 by paigow

[AttackTurtle]

The dragon flight scene was a bit of wasted time for me, but I’m hoping that it was to foreshadow John riding one in battle soon and they want us to know he can ride one.

Bran was creeping me/annoying me until I realized that the “old friend” he was waiting for was Jaime.

speaking of Bran shouldn’t someone be constantly inquiring of him about the whereabouts of the AOTD?

Sam did not seem worked over his dad, but his brother being scorched seemed to be what sent him over.   I give credit to Dany for telling him straight out about it.

[dr pepper]

General comment on the episode: It was great!

I confess i approached it with some trepidation because i was prepared to be disappointed. But i wasn't.

Also, i have not been on this site since the end of last season. And i see it has changed its name and format. Please tell me there still are snarky episode recaps.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, Leroux said:

I was also disappointed in Jon's reaction to Sam's news about his family

WTF JON? I know that he has had to execute people, that some of his decisions have lead people to death, but this is your "brother" Sam, your best friend who is crying because he found out his brother had died a horrible death and you are still defending Daenerys? to his face? 

I hate when the hypocrisy is so blatant, wasn't Jon Snow who not only a season ago warned Dany about using her dragons and burning people and how if she did that, then she was no different from other megalomaniac rulers? and now that he is in love with her he is willing to justify all her actions? 

A nice, strong hug and some words of comfort for Sam would not have killed him. After he was calmed maybe try to justify or at least make him understand that right now was not the moment to create conflicts. 

I hate that the north/Starks/anyone who is not Daenerys basically has to shut their mouths and have no right to express their feelings at all just not to irritate the "Queen" because she might pack her toys and let them die.  It sucks!!

I disagree.  Randyll Tarly was, low key, one of the most arrogant, abominable, and foolish characters on the show, and he chose death for himself and his idiot son Rickon...I mean Dickon.

I think people are being WAY too hard on Dany.

Someone brought up the crucifixtions.  That was justice visited on the monsters who crucified hundreds of innocent children to send a message.

She could have burned all the soldiers of the usurper, psychopath queen, but she only burned the 2 who, for no good reason, refused to submit.

Dany could have conquered King's Landing in a day, but she wasn't willing to kill thousands of innocent people.

She could have taken the Masters' offer of an armada of ships and sailed to Westeros and conquered it, years earlier.  But, she was not willing to let hundreds of thousands of people return to bondage.

She is not perfect, and she has the potential to slip into brutality, like her father.  But, for the most part, she has been a compassionate ruler who puts the people first.

I think her biggest problem is public relations and her perception in the North.

Of course, maybe the Northerners could be a bit more appreciative of her marching North to save them from the Army of the Dead.l

Edited April 15, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

This is why I think she is a conquerer, but not a ruler. 

It remains to be seen what type of ruler she is.  But, I would call her a liberator more than a conqueror.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Well, saving Yara sure seemed like a handwave, didn't it?  At this point, I'm hoping The Kraken just ups and eats the entire Iron Islands in one gulp with all of them on it.

Cersei seemed disappointed that only 20,000 Gold Company men came.  Banging what was essentially a pirate was icing on a disappointment cake, I think.

And, like losing The Night's Watch, Jon is losing The North.  God, I hope he doesn't become king.

The whole Dany and Jon kissing thing make me want to clean myself with chicken feet.  But, now that the truth is in the air, that'll probably stop.

Did Jon really lose the Night's Watch, or did he lose a handful of traitors, who ambushed and assassinated him?

The Ironborn are idiots.  So, just as it was easy for Euron to surprise Yara and destroy her fleet, it was easy for Theon to rescue her.

I think Euron is starting to grow on Cersei.  She finally met a man who can match her arrogance, brutality and hedonism.  

[Drogo]

8 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

And, like losing The Night's Watch, Jon is losing The North.  God, I hope he doesn't become king.

I hate to give him any credit, but Alliser Thorne said it best:

Do you know what leadership means, Lord Snow? It means that the person in charge gets second guessed by every clever little twat with a mouth. But if he starts second guessing himself, that’s the end. For him, for the clever little twats, for everyone. This is not the end. Not for us. Not if you lot do your duty for however long it takes to beat them back. 

[Timetoread]

Good episode.  Loved the reunions! 

I think I understand why there’s all this talk about how smart Sansa is.  Jon STILL isn’t listening to her.  He’s all white king this white king that.  But not enough people have seen the white walkers for the consensus fear that is required.  And Jon is not a good communicator.  What they DO have experience with is a power hungry Targaryan using dragons to burn everybody into submission.  Robert and his Northern rebellion shut that shit down for a moment but it’s started up again with Hitler Jr.  and they are not here for it.  Nor are they here for an elected leader ceding power to an autocrat.  They had a council- hence a voice- and Jon has silenced them.

But the optic struggle between Jon and Sansa is that he wants to save the world but doesn’t really care about the people.  Sansa wants to save her people but needs to come around to the fact that she can only do so by saving the world.

Jon and Dany are big picture people.  Sansa is a manager and a good one. Jon represents the military and Sansa the politician.  You need both.  One without the other doesn’t work.  You can’t fight your war if your troops choose to stay home.  And you won’t have a home unless we win this war.

This really wasn’t about Dany, who is basically a supernatural creature.  Jon/Sansa is telling the human story.

[LadyChaos]

8 hours ago, felicity porter said:

Given a man power and he will show you who he really is.  Or in this case, a woman.

After rewatching the series, I've really come to realize how arrogant Dany has always been.  I just think we had much worse characters to focus on - Joffrey, Cersei, etc.  But with them dead or humbled, Dany's arrogance is a lot harder to hide.

During my rewatch, I remember catching on a lot sooner how she actually treated Jorrah like shit quite a bit.  As soon as her brother died, she actually started getting pretty arrogant and thinking pretty high of herself fo someone that had no army, and small dragons.

[Lady S.]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I disagree.  Randyll Tarly was, low key, one of the most arrogant and abominable, foolish characters on the show, and he chose death for himself and his idiot son Rickon...I mean Dickon.

Yeah, let's remember that this guy would have taken joy in murdering his unfavorite son and referred to Gilly as it once he figured out she was a wildling. And that Dany didn't refuse to let him join the NW when Tyrion suggested it, that was his choice. Sam was shocked to hear of his execution but was ready to move on until he learned she burned his brother too, so I don't know why people are still making it about both of them. I mean I know why but it's odd to act like it's on Sam's behalf. 

Someone above was right that the honorable way would have been beheading all the treasonous knights. Instead she completely everyone still not bending the knee to make an example of their commander, ignoring his son too until he begged to join Daddy. It was a faster death than any burning by her father or Stannis either, and the example spared everyone else.

49 minutes ago, paigow said:

Qyburn needs to clarify for Bronn if this pox is also an STD.....

I think that was what Bronn was thinking, rather than just asking out of concern for the girl.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

This episode reminds me of Grand Soap Opera Weddings of Yor.

Where the sniping and petty is hella strong.

Dany should know how to read a room by now.

Jon is kinda pussy whipped.

Poor Little Lord Umber

Grey Worm and Missandei had a Selma moment, those Northerners weren't feelin them at all.

Don't ever change Lady Mormont.

Edited April 15, 2019 by MrsRafaelBarba

[betha]

7 hours ago, voiceover said:

quickie w/an ugly pirate 

Beg to differ on choice of modifier.

[Wendy]

9 hours ago, Mya Stone said:

This was mine:

“You gave up your throne to save your people. Would she do the same?”

Absolutely not. 

She will not give up that throne at all, she will not co rule , she will not share , if she can't claim birthright she will claim right of conquest, which actually would be pretty funny and will show her as the big hypocrite she is. 

Luckily for her Jon doesn't want the iron throne, so IMO he will probably won't even tell her at all, what for? He would take the chance of enraging her and then she will pick up and leave leaving them all to die. I think deep inside Jon can see Daenerys "for who she really is" and I don't think he is willing to take the change of her rage, she knows how volatile she is and how quick she turns to her dragon as a quick fix to everything. 

Jon will be better off by not telling her a thing, let the battle against the AOTD be over and he will either die and the point will be mute or he will marry her and will be king consort. Either way he doesn't want to rule so at this point I don't think it matters much. 

[terrymct]

9 hours ago, dbell1 said:

Why was it so easy to spring Yara when Euron originally managed to burn all but three ships and kill most of their men last time they met?

The whole timing of the Greyjoy arc confused me.  The fleet arrives at Kings Landing so that Euron can deliver the additional troops and canoodle with Cersei.    Fine.  Ok to that point.  Did Theon and gang jump on the ships while they were in the harbor?  I must have missed something.  He/they save Yara, then suddenly they're on ships at sea?  Are these the other Greyjoy ships that Theon had anchored around the corner or something?   I think it was good to settle the Greyjoy arc and move along, but I missed some details.  Maybe it was the patented GoT teleporter back in use.

I loved Arya and Jon meeting again and I'm glad it was in private.  They always were supportive of each other growing up.  I'm glad that feeling is still there.

Lady Mormont still kicks butts and takes names.  Yeah, Jon.  You left a king.  You got some 'splainin to do.   Tell the Northerners why they should support Dany, what made you change your position, and it can't be "well, we need her dragons in the short term and she's got troops, too.".    Dany should have realized that gaining acceptance of a new people would take time and effort.  Heaven knows that she's arrived in various cities and had to work to be accepted as leader, although some of her tactics are the kinds of things that had Samwell crying.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Dany's not presenting herself as a guest though. She's presenting herself as the Queen of the North, no and's if's or but's.

She arrived as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, and compared to the others holding or claiming that title, she arrived very humbly.

Remember when King Robert arrived at Winterfell?  Everyone bowed before him.

[terrymct]

8 hours ago, Drogo said:

She is the mother of dragons and the breaker of chains. 

So, if I'm the head of one of the Northern houses, this would be my thought on that.

Dragons?  Wow, never seen one of those before.  Damn, they're eating a lot of my goats and sheep.  I hope she uses those on the white walkers and doesn't roast a bunch of Northerners in order to force us to follow her.  It's be nice to know for sure that she plans on using them for results that help us.

Breaker of chains?  What chains?  Where was that?  Oh, way across the water, places I sort of heard about in stories but that has little direct connection to my life...other than that she march a whole bunch of those people in military formation into the North.  Will those people fight the white walkers or will she use them to subdue the North and solidify her position here?

That pale looking woman has a lot of fire power and some kind of hold over Jon Snow, the person we recognize as King of the North.   This has the potential of going badly for us.

[Lady S.]

Also can we not with calling Jon an elected ruler? I don't remember the common people voting for House Stark or for Jon over Sansa. Not even all the lords got a say either. The Karstark and Umber heirs had to bend the knee after the fact and would have been guilty of treason if they hadn't, same as their fathers. Neither KitN scene involved tokens and candidates like the NW election, one person made a speech declaring a king and others started chanting. Where was there any real room for dissent if someone was unsure of their choice once that started? 

[Uncle JUICE]

9 hours ago, Mya Stone said:

I think my favorite little part of the opening credits was that dragon skull under the Red Keep. 

Look, I'm not saying I watched this WHILE stoned, I'm just saying if I did, I might always think the same thing: I need to get on with designing the lego versions of every one of these things already. Such a cool update, for real. Also I want to insert creep-o Bran wheelchair staring into every movie ever. With an airhorn, too. It's perfect for whenever a character looks off into the distance in a quiet, tense moment. Suddenly "THERE'S BRAN!" is happening. It was unintentionally hilarious. It's basically Westerosi Rick Rolling. 

I thought the episode itself was a mostly good reset, but the problem is they only have five episodes left now to fight two wars, one of which isn't coming until episode III. Dragon riding seemed fan servicey but I'll allow it, until you have someone say "Keep your queen warm!" Ugh! Red Shoe Diary shit. Plus it'd take like twenty minutes to disrobe. Doesn't seem like Dany's the "yeah, just hike up jacket, I'll yank down the underthings" type. Speaking of, for real, who the fuck is the seamstress / wardrobe person for the Targaryen army, because they are fucking killing it. 

[LadyChaos]

8 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

It feels like they switched Dany's character last season when she expected Jon to bend the knee based on nothing but her lineage and Tyrion started fretting about her BBQ tendencies.

But I also wonder how true that is. Or is it just that this is the first time the people she  is demanding bend to her rule are not slavers and are characters the audience is sympathetic to or outright prefer to Dany.

I think given Dany's history, the idea that there is male Targaryen with a stronger claim on the throne and was chosen to rule by the North is going to go over really badly.

I think that in the past, we haven't cared about the people she killed because they were vile people, so we did sympathize with her. However, after my currant rewatch, I do notice that Dany's first response to most situations is 'BURN THEM ALL' she was even going to burn Maureen to the ground in s6 after the slavers tried to take it back, so they couldn't have it.  Which was very Mad King-esque.  But, again, we dismissed it, because....well they were slavers. They were bad people.

She was always arrogant and thought she was deserving of the throne and respect because she was a Targaeryen.  We just ignored it because her adversaries we pieces of shit.  She really always was a bit mercenary, she had to be to advance as fast as she did, and she had to be brutal to free all her now followers; but we ignored it because, again her adversaries were pieces of shit. Her followers, and more or less her mobile nation, love and follow her blindly and treat as if to a god, because she set them free and her adversaries were their slavers.  

Now in s7, I don't think they changed her character at all.  Its just that now she is facing other characters that we know, on a continent where the game, the rules, and the players are now familiar to us, and we know most of the characters are grey.  However to Dany, meeting them the first time, the characters are just people we just met. So now, we are seeing her personality in new light.  Now, we see her arrogance and brutality as an issue because the characters she is dealing with (outside of Cersei and Euron) are not bad people, or fully bad people at least.  They are people we know and love.  

Why should Sansa like her the second she sees her?  She is no one to Sansa except the person who is taking the North away from them again. Yes, Dany was there to save them, but when she saw the dead, she could have told Jon he didn't have to bend the Knee.  She could have allowed the North to remain free in return for asking for their allegiance instead of demanding that he bend the knee.  Sam was right,  I don't think Dany would have bent the knee to Jon if the situation were reversed.

Why should Jon have bent the knee in s7 in the first place?  He was right, if she followed her instincts, she was no different than any other ruler that KL has had in the past 40 years. He also told her that she was no one to him, when they first met.  So what right did she have to demand that a perfect stranger, who just fought to free his own people, to bend the knee to her? When he finally did bend the knee, it was in part because Tormund said that he shouldn't follow in Mance's footsteps to let pride stop him from saving his people, part because she risked her life for him, and part because she lost a dragon in the process. But before that.... really what motivation was there to back her claim to the throne?  What had he seen her do, that showed her worthy of the throne? 

Why should the people of Westros trust her?  Her father was a once beloved King who turned mad and burned people alive. Yes we know that she freed slaves, and that is great, but Westeros doesn't have slaves so they have no slaves to free, to revere her. So why would they submit to her rule?  What else does she have to offer them? They look at her as see just another High born with an army that will kill them all as they get caught in the crossfire of the wars.  She freed slaves, great.  What about the Inn that gets burn to the ground and the Innkeeper that gets strung up because opposing soldier were inside? Thats what the common folk see.  To them, she is just more the same.  So they don't care who sits on the throne anymore. The Tarly's were honor bound to the throne, did she really need to burn them both?  Would others have done the same, yeah (except we all know Jon wouldn't have done it); but isn't Dany's whole pitch is that she is trying to break the wheel, change the system....so maybe she should have thrown them in a cell and let them think like Tyrion suggested.  Because that battle just showed everyone that she is more of the same, she isn't changing the wheel at all, she is reinventing it on her terms. Not to mention, for a woman who saves slaves and women being raped, half of her army consists of the Dothraki horde whose favorite activity is burning down villages, taking slaves, and raping women. 

So it's not that she has changes, its that the players around her have changed, and therefore we see her differently.

[Kanner]

I’m baffled by the notion that Jon is just doing what Dany wants. In reality, SHE is doing what HE wants. This has been his goal for so long and she has paused her goal to help. Granted it should have been a great PR move but those Northern Lords and Ladies are just too stuck in the actions of others in the past. 

[ferjy]

9 hours ago, mojoween said:

So much deliciousness to unpack and all I really care about is Tormund is alive!

And also, he’s always had blue eyes.

His scenes are always good. I hope Brienne shows up. I wouldn’t mind seeing a few more glares at Tormund. 😄

[Wendy]

9 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Jon to Sansa - Do you have any faith in me at all?

The entire North, poking their heads in - NOPE!

I wouldn't either. 

I wonder what the Northerners reaction is going to be when/if they find out that Jon really didn't need to bend the knee. She had pledge to help him already. That was a really stupid move. 

IMO just shows how Jon is not fit to rule anything (yet, he probably will learn or listen to advisors) but if he was actually going to bend the knee he could have negotiated some conditions that would make the losing of their independence more palatable. Some things like economic support to rebuilt the northern keeps, some kind of independence like the one Dorne has, food and crops to feed the armies during battle time, a similar deal that she gave Yara, anything would be better than a pledge with no conditions.

Add to that the fact that they are now lovers and the news of his real origins and it is a recipe for disaster. Hopefully none of that will be revealed until after the war against the WW. 

[Lillith]

48 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

But the optic struggle between Jon and Sansa is that he wants to save the world but doesn’t really care about the people.  Sansa wants to save her people but needs to come around to the fact that she can only do so by saving the world.

Jon and Dany are big picture people.  Sansa is a manager and a good one. Jon represents the military and Sansa the politician.  You need both.  One without the other doesn’t work.  You can’t fight your war if your troops choose to stay home.  And you won’t have a home unless we win this war.

Exactly. Obviously the undead coming for them is an urgent issue. But Sansa's concerns about supplies are valid. You can't fight if you're starving or cold. And everyone is converging on Winterfell, all of the supplies at other castles need to be transported there. Also not a small task. 

Sansa and Dany both have learned they like having power, especially because they were both so powerless for a time. Jon I think is much more ambivalent about it. 

[mikal768]

9 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Dany's not presenting herself as a guest though. She's presenting herself as the Queen of the North, no and's if's or but's.

Well... yeah. Cause the king abidicated and swore his and his people’s allegiance to her.

For all legal intents and purposes she IS the Queen of the North, no ifs ands or buts.

Edited April 15, 2019 by mikal768

[LadyChaos]

9 hours ago, rozen said:

I think all the players in this episode have reasonable points & disadvantages, and hopefully will balance each other out.

Jon is "righteous" and honorable, yes. But he has a pathological refusal to take the time to coax people to see the same big picture he does. Additionally, he refuses to take the input of outside advisors, or make them feel included in the process of coming to the decisions he does. 

Sansa loves her brother, but she has acquired hard-earned political acumen that Jon lacks. I don't see her as not trusting Jon, I see it as her being increasingly exasperated that he refuses to learn one iota of the "game" because he disdains it, despite the fact it is having immediate and serious consequences for everyone. 

Sam gets to be mad in the immediate aftermath of learning his family is dead...but c'mon. I see the theme is going to be to build a foil between Dany & John based on this incident, but I'm not buying it. Sam *knows* his father was a hateful and stubborn asshole. If he'd been in the Nights Watch, he absolutely would have lead the line to stab Jon to death, and yes Jon would execute someone like Samwell's father. The story also conveniently lacks any context, Dany executed the 2 most recalcitrant rebels in a terrifying manner and cowed everyone else into submission. Rather than cutting them down to the last man, which I swear appears to be the more "honorable" option in this multiverse.

Basically everyone needs to stfu and work together, because together they form one fully functioning imperial structure. Any of them alone is fairly unqualified, to me.

* edit: Also, I am not shocked Sansa is snitty right now. Jon's rolled up with the spawn of genocidal despots who's way stronger than any of them, and has immediately given her more trust than he's ever shown Sansa. 

A Couple things here:

The North has traditionally NEVER played the game of politics.  They are shown to be honorable people who stick to themselves, and avoid the South because the deceit and the games and the Starks are optimum of Northness. They are their own people.  Thats why even Cersei told Joffery that they can't keep the North without the Starks. The North doesn't play games.  Its why Ned died. It's why Ned's brother died. It why Ned's father and Uncle died. Jon has always been the one that mostly resembled Ned in in manor and personalty.  That is not going to change.

As far as Sam goes.  It doesn't matter that Sam's father abused him, and treated him horribly. It was still Sam's father and brother; and he still loved them. Of course it is going to hurt to learn they burned alive.  At least Dany had the decency to look remorseful over it, and was honest with him instead of lying like many others would have.

Whether Sansa loves and trusts Jon is debatable.  She has neither showed publicly or privately that she trusts his decisions.  Just the opposite, she has gone out of the way to publicly treat him like crap. HOWEVER, I will say this. I give her a bit of a pass because to her, and most of the Northerners the AotD are abstract, they've never seen it; so its not quite real to them. The Long Night was 1000 years ago, so Im sure most of the North doubt that its real.

Sansa definitely had no business being snotty to Dany.  If for any reason that by Jon bending the knee to Dany, gave Dany the right punish her.  Sansa had enough sense at 12 to not anger Joffery for fear of the consequences, and having learned to play the game one would think she would be smarter than to show open hostility to a woman capable of burning down the entire North.

Edited April 15, 2019 by LadyChaos

[Growsonwalls]

I think we could argue all day about Sansa vs. Dany but heres something to chew on: if Samsa is wary it's because she has been severely traumatized by Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton and Littlefinger. Shes not going to trust her brothers gf just because. 

Dany on the other hand has always been supported and propped up by people. Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape, her father beheaded in front of her, etc.

[mikal768]

4 hours ago, Friendly kitty said:

Agree. She played in the queen. He thinks if John bent his knee in front of her, then the rest should do the same. Not! She needs to learn to negotiate with people, learn diplomacy ...

No actually they totally should. That’s the point of a feudal society- you have allegiance to your lord, who has allegiance to their lord, all the way to the top king/queen/emperor.

By their laws and their society and their histories, they SHOULD all be bending the knee and honestly Daenerys’s reactions to the side eyes are, in relation to this society, justifiable and very restrained. 

Plus the fact she’s coming in with tens of thousands of trained powerful soldiers and two dang dragons to save their ungrateful butts should provide a little respect. 

[ferjy]

9 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Well, saving Yara sure seemed like a handwave, didn't it?  At this point, I'm hoping The Kraken just ups and eats the entire Iron Islands in one gulp with all of them on it.

Cersei seemed disappointed that only 20,000 Gold Company men came.  Banging what was essentially a pirate was icing on a disappointment cake, I think.

And, like losing The Night's Watch, Jon is losing The North.  God, I hope he doesn't become king.

The whole Dany and Jon kissing thing make me want to clean myself with chicken feet.  But, now that the truth is in the air, that'll probably stop.

And no elephants. Poor Cersei. 

[DrSpaceman]

This was really a pretty lackluster episode

Might as well have labeled this :  Season 8 :  Recap and Introduction

The Starks are all together again, the remaining ones

And Theon rescued his sister

Uron is pretty much Cersei's only ally

And John now knows who his parents are.

OH, took an hour to do all that

[LadyChaos]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It remains to be seen what type of ruler she is.  But, I would call her a liberator more than a conqueror.

A Liberator does not always make a good ruler, because they tend to focus solely on freedom and not at what needs to be done afterward.

I think Maureen shows a good deal about what kind of ruler she would be, a bad one.

[Drogo]

7 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Sansa definitely had no business being snotty to Dany.  If for any reason that by Jon bending the knee to Dany, gave Dany the right punish her.  Sansa had enough sense at 12 to not anger Joffery for fear of the consequences, and having learned to play the game one would think she would be smarter than to show open hostility to a woman capable of burning down the entire North.

Dany:  "The North is every bit as beautiful as your brother described.  As are you!"

Sansa: "K."

That bit about whether she was their Queen now because Jon really wanted to save the North or because he was in love with her was master class projection.  Clearly Baelish didn't ride the Knights of the Vale to her aid during the BotBastards because he thought Sansa would become a great leader, he did it because he was in love with her. 

Sansa's petty as hell.  Careful on that high horse gurl, cause there's dragons up in here now and they can get a lot higher.

[Wendy]

8 hours ago, AnnaL said:

Wasn't Jon demanding to Arya that Sansa remembers he is family? what kind of family is Jon letting Daenerys make threats to his face to one of his sisters?  I am baffled. 

I am too, also disappointed in Jon. 

I know Jon is the hero and the one who will probably sacrifice his life for others but in this specific instance he was dead wrong. 

Even if he doesn't like Sansa or if they can't sort of their differences, she is still his family. I wish Daenerys would have made her threat against Sansa to Arya's face. I would love to see Arya's reaction. 

[MissLucas]

Quote

11 minutes ago, mikal768 said:

No actually they totally should. That’s the point of a feudal society- you have allegiance to your lord, who has allegiance to their lord, all the way to the top king/queen/emperor.

If things were that clear-cut books on Medieval history would be much shorter.