S08.E01: Winterfell

[AD35]

Quote

  13 hours ago, anamika said:

So what was up with the Northerners especially giving Missandei and Greyworm the stink eye? Have they not seen any brown skinned people before or is that just their xenophobic tendencies coming to the forefront?

They're portrayed as plain racists. Which means they're flagged for death, and I'm not sorry at all at the perspective.

 I took that the reason for the dirty looks they got was being part of the entourage/army of Daenerys "Bend the knee or else!" Targaryen.  As been mentioned up thread, there's going to be little respect and no love for a queen they didn't choose as opposed to a king they did.  Speaking of which, would Sam go as far as undermining her in someway down the line since he knows that his father and brother got barbecued by dragon?

The Theon/Yarra renuion went alot quicker and smoother than I expected.  She was alot more restrained than I would have been in the same circumstances.

Edited April 17, 2019 by AD35

[terrymct]

1 minute ago, JanetSnakehole said:

Does anyone else think that Cersei is gonna try to weaponize the dead? When Clyburn told her they had broken through The Wall and were headed South she smirked and said "Good." I wonder if she'll try to make an army of Mountains. 

I think her response was more related to politics and gamesmanship.  With all those groups up at the wall fighting the white walkers, Cersei can solidify her hold on the rest of Westeros.  Additionally, a whole bunch of the people fighting the walkers will die meaning those armies won't be able to challenge her and their leadership will be handicapped, as well.   She said something the end of last season about letting them go up there and get killed while she stays in the south and stays strong.

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Yeah, it will be curious to see how it's handled.  He has at least SOME of the Targaryen super powers in that the dragons like him.  You'd think the powers are a boxed set.

Except that Jon is half Stark.  They are known to be stubborn.  Heck even his hair is dark colored unlike every other Targaryen we've seen with their white blond hair.  Maybe he only has 1/2 power.

Speaking of power, where the heck is Ghost ???

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

If Cersei thinks Bronn will ever use that crossbow on either brother, then the show has completely lost its grip on Cersei's character. I think it'll be his downfall too, but there's simply no sensible way this queen thinks that she can prepay a sellsword to murder two people he was legitimately friends with. 

I'm actually surprised Bronn didn't ride North with Jaime when Jaime finally peaced out of King's Landing. Unless Cersei finds a way to kill two dragons and the Night King, she's heading a lost cause. Bronn will never get to enjoy that highborn wife if the entire country is turned into a pile of ashes. The assassination plot seems like an awkward device to get him to Winterfell. Most of the fan base seems to agree he wouldn't kill either Lannister brother. 

[Constantinople]

I think the Hound might be the only character we see who was in both processions into Winterfell, the one in this episode and the one in the very first episode.

We see Tyrion in this episode's procession, but I don't think we saw him in the first episode's procession.

[cambridgeguy]

3 minutes ago, AD35 said:

The Theon/Yarra renuion went alot quicker and smoother than I expected.  She was alot more restrained than I would have been in the same circumstances.

She was probably impressed that Theon found his own set of 20 good men to very easily find and rescue her.  That's what Dany and Jon should be doing - scrounge up their own set and then head off to assassinate the NK before he gets to Winterfell. 

[comanick]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She is doing it for the North and the entire realm.  She could easily hop on Drogon and fly back to Meereen and hang out there until the whatever happens in Westeros is over.

I don't get where people get the idea that Dany is so selfish.  She could have taken the Iron Throne years ago, but she hung around in Esos to make sure the slaves she freed stayed free and held off attacking King's Landing because she didn't want to kill hundreds of thousands of people and be the Queen of the Ashes.   

I dont get it either. IMO she has gone way out of her way to try and help people. To an extent that most leaders (excluding jon) would. 

I mean did Tywin care about how may innocent people would die when he sacked kings landing?Did Ned? Did Robert? Did jon Arynn? 

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

We see Tyrion in this episode's procession, but I don't think we saw him in the first episode's procession.

IIRC Tyrion was enjoying the Northern brothel during the procession in 1st episode

[Drogo]

4 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

where the heck is Ghost ???

[Timetoread]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Sansa is smart, but I don't think she helped win the BOTB by being smart.  The smart move would have been to tell Jon she could have the Knights of the Vale there in a day or so, so he should delay the battle.    

She was smart to know that Ramsey would do something to lure Jon into doing something stupid, and that Jon should not do whatever that thing turned out to be.  That seemed to go right over Jon's head when she couldn't tell him specifically what it would be, and he should have recognized that Rickon and the arrows was that thing.  

The Knights of the Vale wasn't a sure thing.  Jon flat out wasn't listening to her.  He played the "What do you know about war? Well I'm a warrior so shut up." card.  She tried to tell him about Ramsey and Rickon.  Then  Jon went against his OWN strategy doing EXACTLY what Sansa warned him against.  So maybe she didn't win the BOTB by being smart but Jon lost it by being dumb.

The Littlefinger takedown?  That was smart as hell!

[Bryce Lynch]

24 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

She did obey him in public.  She only challenged him in private.

What more could Sansa have done to support Jon?  The North had the mind of their own.  She was more of their manager/administrator than their ruler.  I mean everyone knew an ice zombies apocalypse was coming but a house still refused to come to Winterfell. 

Also, if Dany could not take a few sneers and cold comments from her subordinates (who like you point out want nothing to do with each other), pretty soon she is going to be a queen of ruins and ashes.

No need. The plot / TPTB will keep them safe and sound on those dragons...  😄

Sansa spoke in a very disrespectful tone when she complained about not having planned to feed the troops and the dragons, in front a a hall full of people.  

I like Sansa, but she sounded like the snotty little girl who went off to King's Landing to marry her beloved Prince Joffrey.  

Edited April 15, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[MadameKillerB]

I'll just note some little things I found interesting or liked or pondered over:

-didn't like how even when flirting and bantering with Jon, Dany has to keep on about being everyone's damn Queen. (keeping her warm when they did their little jaunt on the dragons)
-wtf show (re: Ned Umber...but LOVED his little peek out of the group of Northern men LOL)
-are the spirals too obviously like the Targ sigil? Is this a red herring? I don't trust this show at all LOL
-hope we get a cold open this last season
-Tyrion is walking around like Eeyore. I got a baaaad feeling about what will happen to him. Poor guy. He really just wants a family who loves him.
-Jamie's hair gets darker and darker...hmmmm was this deliberate as a subtle sign that he's moving away from his Lannister leanings?
-Yara and Theon? too easy. Or was this part of Euron's long game? Just fuck off back to the Iron Islands with surviving Greyjoys?
-did they build ramps in Winterfell for Bran?
-Maisie is a better actress than she used to be but still...not a fan. LOVE Arya and Maisie with Sophie Turner. But wish she were better able to give the audience something when it's required in a scene.
-little flashes of red with the red gloves and wee ascot thing in Dany's costume, Sansa's slightly more military look, Varys wearing Winterfell colors over his regular robes, Arya's cape-like thing giving her a look like her "dancing" coach...love the costuming
-"You're a man." "Almost." Ouch!
-Lady Mormont...wanted to see her meet with Jorah so bad. Hopefully we get this at some point in the season. Loved the moment when she burns Jon and the men of the North are all, "daaaaamn," in the background
-what did Euron mean by "mute" when describing Golden Company?

[BonnieD]

I believe they make Dany arrogant so she can display some personal growth over the course of the story. Not much time left but I feel sure they'll make it happen.  I thought sure Dany would try to earn Sansa's respect by figuring out a way to get more supplies (some way other than marauding around the north taking it) to illustrate she understands the logistics of feeding an army and wants to contribute. (Why didn't she seize the Lannister troop train instead of destroying it? Stupid writing!) From the very beginning it has bothered me that they show these masses of soldiers and never mention how they're fed, watered, etc. 

Anyway, I'm certain that Dany will finally grow enough to let go of her entitled attitude, forge a strong alliance with Jon, and be part of the ruling consortium I fully expect and have always expected to be the end game.

Also, I did a quick rewatch of season 7 and am still shaking my head over the fact they didn't use dragonfire to mow down the white walkers!!! Victory was in their grasp. And that's just poor writing in my opinion.

[Last Time Lord]

I managed to catch the episode this morning (Thanks, HBO Go!) and am only on a short break at work, so very quick thoughts. 

I enjoyed this immensely, but thought the last two scenes should have been switched, with the burning of the wee little wight lord making a stronger impact as the end of the episode.  

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa spoke in a very disrespectful tone when she complained about not having planned to feed the troops and the dragons, in front a a hall full of people.  

I like Sansa, but she sounded like the snotty little girl who went off to King's Landing to marry her beloved Prince Joffrey.  

That was much restrained than the way Northerners speak to their King of the North.  Again, if Dany cannot handle passive aggressive tones, she is not going to be a good leader.

Also, somebody needed to worry about logistics.  The last time somebody went up north without enough food, Stannis was mowed down easily by Ramsey Bolton

[nilyank]

I think Dany arrived at WF as the Queen of the Seven Kingdom. When she goes to meet Sansa, she warmly greets her like the sister of her new boyfriend. But Sansa gave her the side eye and Dany retreated back to her detached Queen persona. 

So while Queen Dany expects respect from Sansa; Jon's girlfriend wanted his sister to like her.

Edited April 15, 2019 by nilyank

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, nilyank said:

So while Queen Dany expects respect from Sansa; Jon's girlfriend wanted his sister to like him.

And everyone knows how good Jon is in bed so Dany really does not want to alienate him by unleashing dragon fire on his sister 😄 

[Constantinople]

Janos Slynt is executed by Jon after defying Jon's authority, merely because Janos wouldn't accept some crappy assignment.

Randyll Tarly and Dickon Tarly are executed by Daenerys after defying her authority. Randyll and Dickon took up arms against Daenerys and her allies, were given a chance to repent and refused.

Yet Jon is lauded and Daenerys is hated

Just because Sam is likable, doesn't make Daenerys a monster or Jon some great guy.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Timetoread said:

The Knights of the Vale wasn't a sure thing.  Jon flat out wasn't listening to her.  He played the "What do you know about war? Well I'm a warrior so shut up." card.  She tried to tell him about Ramsey and Rickon.  Then  Jon went against his OWN strategy doing EXACTLY what Sansa warned him against.  So maybe she didn't win the BOTB by being smart but Jon lost it by being dumb.

The Littlefinger takedown?  That was smart as hell!

The Littlefinger takedown was a ridiculously badly written story line.  We don't even know if Arya and Sansa were really about to kill one another or if it was all a game for LF (for what reason I do not know).  The had Bran to tell them what happened when Ned was betrayed.   I don't blame Sansa, because the writers were just dumb, but LF being killed should have happened earlier and shouldn't have been so complicated.

As I said, I do agree that she was very, smart to tell Jon to watch out for a trick from Ramsey.  She explained it in a way that should have made it easy to recognized when it came, but he acted like it was useless information.  That frustrated me, as she wasn't trying to give military advice, but keen insight into how her darling husband thought and behaved.   

Then again, maybe he did recognize the trap, but couldn't resist trying to save his little brother.  

It was for the best.  If he hadn't fallen for the trap, we wouldn't have the "Jon Snow vs. Everyone" meme. :)

[MVFrostsMyPie]

I feel icky about the shipping of Arya and Gendry. How old are either of them supposed to be? I get that this is in the era of when incest apparently was okay and so were child brides, but he seems more like an older brother, and I still see Arya as a girl.

(There will be quite some cognitive dissonance in my brain if Maisie Williams takes on a "sexy woman" role. I think she's attractive enough to pull it off, barring that harsh slicked back hairdo she was sporting in this episode, but yeah... I still see her as a young teenager even if in real life she's what, in her early 20s?)

[Constantinople]

4 minutes ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

(There will be quite some cognitive dissonance in my brain if Maisie Williams takes on a "sexy woman" role. I think she's attractive enough to pull it off, barring that harsh slicked back hairdo she was sporting in this episode, but yeah... I still see her as a young teenager even if in real life she's what, in her early 20s?)

Thanks to Wikipedia's entry on April 15th, I found out she turns 22 today

[MissLucas]

3 minutes ago, Last Time Lord said:

I enjoyed this immensely, but thought the last two scenes should have been switched, with the burning of the wee little wight lord making a stronger impact as the end of the episode.  

I think they closed with the Bran-Jaimie meeting because it's going to have huge consequences for next episode (just speculating and sorry wee Lord Umber for implying your death is inconsequential). Adding Jaimie to Winterfell is really like bringing matches into an ordnance factory - lots of fun ahead!

[comanick]

10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Janos Slynt is executed by Jon after defying Jon's authority, merely because Janos wouldn't accept some crappy assignment.

Randyll Tarly and Dickon Tarly are executed by Daenerys after defying her authority. Randyll and Dickon took up arms against Daenerys and her allies, were given a chance to repent and refused.

Yet Jon is lauded and Daenerys is hated

Just because Sam is likable, doesn't make Daenerys a monster or Jon some great guy.

100% agree. 

[terrymct]

22 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

-are the spirals too obviously like the Targ sigil? Is this a red herring? I don't trust this show at all LOL

The spirals predate the Targeryans.   The Children of the Forest used a spiral pattern in their arrangement of rocks at the weirwood tree in the flashback where the Night King was created.  There was also a spiral design in the cave paintings that Jon and Dany saw on the walls of the cave at Dragonstone.  Those were supposed to be from the first people, if I recall correctly.

[Bryce Lynch]

16 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

That was much restrained than the way Northerners speak to their King of the North.  Again, if Dany cannot handle passive aggressive tones, she is not going to be a good leader.

Also, somebody needed to worry about logistics.  The last time somebody went up north without enough food, Stannis was mowed down easily by Ramsey Bolton

You simply don't speak the the King or Queen that way in public.  It isn't America, it's Westeros.   

It was a valid question, but one that should have been asked respectfully, not in a accusatory tone.  

[Ottis]

Quick question: WHERE was little unfortunate Lord Umber hanging on the wall? Was that at the Umber keep? TIA.

[Neurochick]

15 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think what I dislike about Dany is that she is one of those people who likes to think she's an enlightened ruler but the minute she feels challenged she goes all out with the burning and the crucification and methods that Cersei would employ. She's not any different from the other rulers but she's convinced in her mind that she's this amazing, humane ruler. 

That's how Dany's always been, she's always been entitled.  In the first seasons though, she was an underdog because the dream of the iron throne was so far away from where she was, But Dany's always done things without thinking; I think freeing the slaves was one of the things she did that turned out to be a cluster fuck. 

She's been told for years that she's the rightful heir to the iron throne, and now that it's in her grasp, she only seems different.  She's not doing anything different, but now her position is different, she might actually sit on the iron throne.

It's always interesting how we folks cheer for the underdog, until they keep winning, then the same people want them humbled, even though they're the same person they were when they were an underdog.  

I remember a line from the song, "Wanted Dead or Alive" by the Might Sparrow (years before Bon Jovi's version).  "Politicians turn too soon from poor people into tycoons; corruption must bring harass."

[comanick]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You simply don't speak the the King or Queen that way in public.  It isn't America, it's Westeros.   

It was a valid question, but one that should have been asked respectfully, not in a accusatory tone.  

^^This. It is a logical worry but Sansa should have gone about it differently. She came here to help you, not conquer you. The attitude is not necessary.She gave dany no choice but to respond as any king or queen would. 

I fell like people expect the queen with all the actually power in this war (soldiers, dragons, dragonglass) to walk on egg shells while everyone else can be as openly rude and ungrateful as they want. And if dany pushes back just a little its like "look see i told she was a horrible monster, she shouldnt be queen"

[screamin]

37 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

No need. The plot / TPTB will keep them safe and sound on those dragons...  😄

I know, I know. It's just annoying to see Dany settle her vulnerable crotch so happily among those knifelike dorsal spines and shrug, "We're about to soar up to 20,000 feet. Hang on to whatever." I don't like when my suspension of disbelief is punctured by the showrunners in such an easily avoidable way.

[Neurochick]

Maybe none of them will sit on the iron throne.  Maybe it'll be someone no one expects who will sit on the throne at the end, like Arya.  

[JanetSnakehole]

I fully expect Arya or Tyrion to be the Throne-sitter at the end. 

[MadameKillerB]

20 minutes ago, terrymct said:

The spirals predate the Targeryans.   The Children of the Forest used a spiral pattern in their arrangement of rocks at the weirwood tree in the flashback where the Night King was created.  There was also a spiral design in the cave paintings that Jon and Dany saw on the walls of the cave at Dragonstone.  Those were supposed to be from the first people, if I recall correctly.

Right. Agreed. What I'm wondering is about how the *show* is trying to draw parallels between how that symbol has been used.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

  15 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think what I dislike about Dany is that she is one of those people who likes to think she's an enlightened ruler but the minute she feels challenged she goes all out with the burning and the crucification and methods that Cersei would employ. She's not any different from the other rulers but she's convinced in her mind that she's this amazing, humane ruler. 

The crucifixions were in response to the Masters crucifying hundreds of innocent slave children.  That was justice for the innocent.

The only ones she burned were the Tarlys.  She defeated Cersei's army and was in no position to take prisoners, so she gave them the option of joining her or being put to death.   Randyll and Rickon Dickon (Ha!) made their choice.   

She didn't just slaughter all the Masters of slaver's bay.  She tried to make peace with them, but they broke their word over and over.  Even after their final rebellion, she only had 2 of them killed and sent the 3rd back to warn the other that there will be no more attacks on Meereen or return to slavery.

She banished, rather than execute Jorah for spying on her, and later accepted him back.

She had a friend and strong supporter executed because he murdered one of her enemies, without due process.

She welcomed Varys into her inner circle, as someone to tell her if he believed she wasn't acting in the interests of the people.  

After she bought/stole them, the offered the Unsullied their freedom.  She did the same thing in Yunkai.  

To say she is no different than Cersei or the other rulers is ridiculous.  

[Uncle JUICE]

27 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Quick question: WHERE was little unfortunate Lord Umber hanging on the wall? Was that at the Umber keep? TIA.

Yes, Last Hearth, the Umber's seat. 

[Calamity Jane]

1 hour ago, AD35 said:

The Theon/Yarra renuion went alot quicker and smoother than I expected.  She was alot more restrained than I would have been in the same circumstances.

My opinion about Theon's decision to jump and save himself has always been that, even though it was probably a panic-based act, it was also a rational one.  He is significantly impaired by Ramsay's "games," he wouldn't have stood a ghost of a chance of beating Euron, and the only outcome would have been his death or capture.  At least by getting away, he had a chance to fight another day and eventually rescue Yara.  What good is it to do the heroic or noble thing if it gets you killed?  Is that better for Yara in the long run?  Just never understood why we were supposed to think poorly of Theon in that instance.  

[Constantinople]

20 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The crucifixions were in response to the Masters crucifying hundreds of innocent slave children.  That was justice for the innocent.

HIZDAHR: My father, one of Meereen's most respected and beloved citizens, oversaw the restoration and maintenance of its greatest landmarks. This pyramid included.

DAENERYS: For that, he has my gratitude. I should be honored to meet him.

HIZDAHR: You have, Your Grace. You crucified him. I pray you'll never live to see a member of your family treated so cruelly.

DAENERYS: Your father crucified innocent children.

HIZDAHR: My father spoke out against crucifying those children. He decried it as a criminal act, but was overruled. Is it justice to answer one crime with another?

S4 E6 The Laws of Gods and Men

[Last Time Lord]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

I think they closed with the Bran-Jaimie meeting because it's going to have huge consequences for next episode (just speculating and sorry wee Lord Umber for implying your death is inconsequential). Adding Jaimie to Winterfell is really like bringing matches into an ordnance factory - lots of fun ahead!

That is very very true. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

HIZDAHR: My father, one of Meereen's most respected and beloved citizens, oversaw the restoration and maintenance of its greatest landmarks. This pyramid included.

DAENERYS: For that, he has my gratitude. I should be honored to meet him.

HIZDAHR: You have, Your Grace. You crucified him. I pray you'll never live to see a member of your family treated so cruelly.

DAENERYS: Your father crucified innocent children.

HIZDAHR: My father spoke out against crucifying those children. He decried it as a criminal act, but was overruled. Is it justice to answer one crime with another?

S4 E6 The Laws of Gods and Men

Yes, it wasn't perfect justice.  But the Masters either supported or allowed the crucifixions of the children to happen.   It is a shame that Hizdahr's father was caught up in it (if he really did oppose it and Hizdahr was not lying).  Maybe Hizdahr's father should stood stronger and even given his life to prevent the torture and murder of hundreds of children.

The original argument was that Dany would go to crucifixions and burnings as soon as anyone opposed her.  That was clearly not the case with the crucifixions.   

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

HIZDAHR: My father, one of Meereen's most respected and beloved citizens, oversaw the restoration and maintenance of its greatest landmarks. This pyramid included.

DAENERYS: For that, he has my gratitude. I should be honored to meet him.

HIZDAHR: You have, Your Grace. You crucified him. I pray you'll never live to see a member of your family treated so cruelly.

DAENERYS: Your father crucified innocent children.

HIZDAHR: My father spoke out against crucifying those children. He decried it as a criminal act, but was overruled. Is it justice to answer one crime with another?

S4 E6 The Laws of Gods and Men

A fair quote, but seriously, fuck Hisdahr ZO Loraq. Anytime I think of him all I can think of is his annoying "Muh, can we open the fighting pits, what about the fighting pits, tradition of the fighting pits...." I hated that character. 

[The Companion]

15 hours ago, betha said:

Arya’s face when she first saw Jon ride in was everything.

I’m here for the reunions, the one-on-one conversations and interpersonal drama, so this was the perfect episode to me.

This is me. I love the big episodes, the twists and the crazy plot points, but the heart of the show is the interpersonal drama. Without it, everything else loses its impact. I get that everyone likes something a little different about the show. And if you are a person who loves surprises and twists, this episode was not for you. Nothing new was learned and it was a lot of set up. However, I was happy to have so much happen between the characters. The reunions mattered and it was satisfying to have so many of them happen at once. I also loved that the long awaited reunions DIDN'T magically fix everything. There are a lot of moving parts and it will take some work to navigate them. 

14 hours ago, steelyis said:

And I have no sympathy for the People of the North complaining about Jon bending the knee. There's a fucking zombie army coming to literally eat the world, who gives a shit about a crown? Worry about it after (if) you survive the zombie apocalypse. Everything else is nonsense.

The people of the North value their independence, and I think it would be inconsistent for them to welcome Dany with open arms. I also think there is a real problem with them not really understanding the threat here. It is something we have seen throughout. Everyone seems to underestimate the AOTD.

13 hours ago, TwistedandBored said:

I don't know why but I felt like Daenerys was unsure of herself during this episode. Like she didn't know what to do with all the hostile stares she was getting so she reverted back to her queenly status. 

I think her dragons flying over help her feel a little confident and comfortable since they are her children but then she felt unsure of herself when meeting The Starks again. She didn't even talk during the Northerners discussion letting Jon and Tyrion take the lead. 

I said it before but I am reiterating that I agree. She wasn't sure how to react. In the past, she could take drastic action to prove herself, but that isn't really the case here. 

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, it's not about her caring about hiding the incest, it's that she's stuck with Euron now that she and Jaime finally broke up, which does not put her in the safest position. But, hey, she did murder the only two non-Jaime men she slept with before, which doesn't bode well for Euron.

Agreed. She is out of allies and needs to keep Euron on the hook.

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I still can't tell if Cersei actually enjoys Euron's boorish antics, or if she's just using him until she no longer needs him.

I am not sure Cersei Lannister has every enjoyed anything in her life that doesn't involve murdering her rivals. I vote for using him. 

7 hours ago, terrymct said:

Lady Mormont still kicks butts and takes names.  Yeah, Jon.  You left a king.  You got some 'splainin to do. 

I love her so much. 

6 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

A Couple things here:

The North has traditionally NEVER played the game of politics.  They are shown to be honorable people who stick to themselves, and avoid the South because the deceit and the games and the Starks are optimum of Northness. They are their own people.  Thats why even Cersei told Joffery that they can't keep the North without the Starks. The North doesn't play games.  Its why Ned died. It's why Ned's brother died. It why Ned's father and Uncle died. Jon has always been the one that mostly resembled Ned in in manor and personalty.  That is not going to change.

As far as Sam goes.  It doesn't matter that Sam's father abused him, and treated him horribly. It was still Sam's father and brother; and he still loved them. Of course it is going to hurt to learn they burned alive.  At least Dany had the decency to look remorseful over it, and was honest with him instead of lying like many others would have.

I agree with both of these points. The North is not really loyal to anyone but the North and nobody can come in and challenge them because the North is also a harsh place to try and attack. You aren't going to win the North with compliments or with brute force. You have to earn their respect, and that takes time.

Sam was still holding out hope he could repair the relationship on his way to the Citadel, and he wouldn't be the first kid to have a complicated mourning period over a flawed parent. What is worse, he knows how his father was and knows that Dickon probably didn't feel he could do anything else. Dany didn't try to hide it or sugarcoat it or overly justify it. I think she gets credit for that.

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Dany needs to establish a small council at Winterfell, that includes Jon, Sansa, a few of the Northern Lords (including Lady Mormont, of course) and her top advisers.  Then they could have more uncomfortable and contentious arguments in private, and present a more united front to the Lords and Smallfolk.  

Sansa undermining Dany with her concerns and complaints in front of a large gathering is not good for anyone.  

Agreed. It would strengthen everyone's position.

3 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

Those two are far from perfect, but as a poster up thread stated, none of them are close to perfect. Sansa makes plenty of mistakes. She is actively making a mistake by underestimating the threat of the Night King and his army. Jon was stubborn for assuming his people would understand why he bent the knee and Sansa is stubborn for refusing to try and understand why Jon bent the knee. Perhaps Jon could have been more colorful in describing the absolute hopelessness that is fighting the AOTD, but even then, the Northerners and Sansa won’t truly understand until they see for themselves. 

I think this is right (though I also think Jon underestimates the threat from the South. I think I mentioned this last year. Both Jon and Sansa have valid points, and both are simultaneously correct and incorrect. Jon knows the threat to the North and underestimates the political and other threats because he has tunnel vision for the AOTD. Sansa knows the South and has seen how political intrigue (and particularly Cersei) can destroy families and lives. Both underestimate one-half of the equation. For Sansa, giving anyone power is concerning. For Jon, being undermanned against the AOTD is concerning. They don't see eye to eye because of their different experiences. 

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

If Cersei thinks Bronn will ever use that crossbow on either brother, then the show has completely lost its grip on Cersei's character. I think it'll be his downfall too, but there's simply no sensible way this queen thinks that she can prepay a sellsword to murder two people he was legitimately friends with. 

I am not sure she has any concept of how close Bronn is to Jamie, and I think she believes he can be bought. Honestly, she seems to think most people can be bought. Cersei, for all of her maneuvering, has always been short sighted and impulsive. 

2 hours ago, terrymct said:

I wonder if Dany will ask if Jon is a real dragon aka can he withstand fire and heat?  Remember that she said her brother wasn't actually a dragon...a real Targaryan... because the molten gold killed him.

Maybe she will test him and he will emerge without a thread on his body. BRB, gotta go write some fanfic. :) 

I have had some time to digest a little more, and I really think this episode was a great one (even if it didn't deliver the craziness people were hoping for). I was anxiously waiting for so many of these reunions. It was satisfying to see Arya, who has longed for her family and who spent so much time isolated from everyone, finally reunite with so many people she cared about (plus the Hound, heh). I enjoyed the Sam/Jon reunion. Jon's joy at seeing him and his concern for Gilly were touching. We didn't get much of Bran/Jamie, but how can you not be excited for the fallout that he represents? The tone is going to change quickly next week as everyone scrambles to figure out what to do with him. 

I loved the increased isolation (physically and geographically) of Cersei. I do think she realizes she is in a precarious position (Euron even admitted he was out of there if he has picked the wrong pony). I suspect sleeping with him was absolutely to tie him there by making him think the baby is his. In fact, I suspect she even planted the idea of putting a prince in her belly in his mind. She sees him as a stupid buffoon, and therefore someone she can control. 

It was interesting to me that we didn't see the Night King, but only saw the effects of his march forward. He feels like this looming threat and there is nothing to really tell us how much time the characters have (but presumably not much). I thought Jon and Dany were scouting on the dragons, but that was clearly not the case. 

We are set up to have some really epic final episodes. The storylines are compressing and everything is coming together. I am excited to see how it all ends.

[ulkis]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

1. The fall-out from the Jaime/Bran reunion will be interesting but I'm wondering how Dany is going to react to meeting "The Kingslayer" -- the former Kingsguard who murdered her father.  Yeah Aryes was bat-shit crazy but that was a major vow Jaime broke.  And now he's turned his back on his own twin sister.  How do you trust THAT man?  Tyrion's got his work cut out for him if he wants to keep Jaime alive.  

I'm betting Brienne and maybe Bran will probably be the ones who manage that.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, JanetSnakehole said:

I fully expect Arya or Tyrion to be the Throne-sitter at the end. 

I thought Arya is more suited to be Spymaster like Varys

[ulkis]

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Its fun seeing all of the reunions between everyone, I love that all of the disparate characters from all of the different plots are all converging into one plot in one place. Arya and Jon was so heartwarming (its the first time the surviving Stark kids have all been together in Winterfell since the start of the show!) 

I had the cheesy/sentimental thought that Jon was putting all the energy into his embrace with Bran that he couldn't get to give to Rickon and Robb. sob.

I think GRRM was pretty short-sighted killing off Caitlyn. Her reaction to Jon's paternity would have been the one I wanted to see the most. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by ulkis

[comanick]

40 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

HIZDAHR: My father, one of Meereen's most respected and beloved citizens, oversaw the restoration and maintenance of its greatest landmarks. This pyramid included.

DAENERYS: For that, he has my gratitude. I should be honored to meet him.

HIZDAHR: You have, Your Grace. You crucified him. I pray you'll never live to see a member of your family treated so cruelly.

DAENERYS: Your father crucified innocent children.

HIZDAHR: My father spoke out against crucifying those children. He decried it as a criminal act, but was overruled. Is it justice to answer one crime with another?

S4 E6 The Laws of Gods and Men

Do you think hizdahr and his father owned slaves? I do. I think most of the master/nobleman of meureen did. 

IMO as someone who is from a country where slavery once existed and also a descendant of one of those peoples I find the idea and application of slavery utterly disgusting to say the least so to me it doesnt really matter if hizdahrs father spoke out about (whether thats even true or not) this one cruel act because if he owned slaves hes just as wrong as the people that crucified those kids. Heck i would even call him a hypocrite to boot. So sorry, no sympathy for anyone who thinks it ok for people to be bought and sold. 

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, JanetSnakehole said:

Does anyone else think that Cersei is gonna try to weaponize the dead? When Clyburn told her they had broken through The Wall and were headed South she smirked and said "Good." I wonder if she'll try to make an army of Mountains. 

I think her 'Good' rather refers to the fact that she hopes that the imminent battle will more or less wipe out both sides or leave the winning side diminished enough that the Golden Company can finish them off despite the deplorable lack of elephants.

If she's making plans for actually having to deal with the dead then wildfire would be the logical answer - but I'm not sure if there's any left after her reconstruction work at the Sept of Baelor. (Still, the cynical part of me would find it hilarious if the dragons proved ineffective and in the end wildfire Molotov cocktails would save the day. I'm sure Qyburn could find a way around the 'highly volatile' thingy)

[steelyis]

5 minutes ago, The Companion said:

The people of the North value their independence, and I think it would be inconsistent for them to welcome Dany with open arms. I also think there is a real problem with them not really understanding the threat here. It is something we have seen throughout. Everyone seems to underestimate the AOTD.

I hope seeing the Night King's army with their own eye makes them finally face reality, because I'm sick and tired of their ignorance.

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, Drogo said:

She did, but he'd already made the decision to bend the knee.  He didn't lie, he said he gave up his crown to save the North, not to get Daenerys to agree to save the North. 

Being unified under a worthy leader is the best way to save the North.

Robert: "Which is the bigger number, five or one?"
Cersei:  "Five."
Robert:  "Five. (*holds up fingers*) One. (*makes a fist")  One army, a real army, united behind one leader with one purpose." 

But they would have  been unified under the leader they chose wouldn't they? Daenerys had agreed so she and her army would have been there as alliances of the North instead of Daenerys being there as the North's not chosen ruler.

The reason I say Jon lied is that to me he misrepresented the truth. He made it sound like but for him bending the knee, they wouldn't have Daenerys, her Dothraki and dragons to save the North.

[JennyMominFL]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

HIZDAHR: My father, one of Meereen's most respected and beloved citizens, oversaw the restoration and maintenance of its greatest landmarks. This pyramid included.

DAENERYS: For that, he has my gratitude. I should be honored to meet him.

HIZDAHR: You have, Your Grace. You crucified him. I pray you'll never live to see a member of your family treated so cruelly.

DAENERYS: Your father crucified innocent children.

HIZDAHR: My father spoke out against crucifying those children. He decried it as a criminal act, but was overruled. Is it justice to answer one crime with another?

S4 E6 The Laws of Gods and Men

This. I dont see the crucifixions as justic but as revenge. Those are 2 very different things.

Edited April 15, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, Wendy said:

100% 

That was the stupidest decision ever. Jon felt guilty because instead of jumping on the dragon ASAP he stood there to kill more WW and gave the NK the opportunity to aim for Viserion so to compensate for his guiltiness he bent the knee when he didn't have to. 

How different would it had been if he was still KITN and Daenerys was there not as queen but as an allied, bringing tons of food with her and her armies. It would surely have made a difference IMO 

He at least should be honest about it and let the Northerners know this, he should let them know that Daenerys offered to help before he bent the knee but also should let them know that their little ill advised adventure has given the NK an ice dragon. I am sure that would go really well with the Northerners. 

For as much as I like Jon, he has made his share of screen ups 

I just posted the same thing.

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Daenerys has earned everything she has.  That said, it probably would have been better if Jon had not decided to bend the knee out of gratitude and admiration.

If Dany had come North and rescued the Notherners from the Night King and his army, before Jon bent the knee, the Northerners probably would have been much more receptive to her rule, once she had proven herself to them.  

She hasn't earned anything with the Northerns yet and that is what I am talking about.

Just because she earned the respect of the Dothraki and Unsullied doesn't mean that she should automatically be given respect from the Northerns.