S03.E16: Don't Take My Sunshine Away

[ams1001]

25 minutes ago, preeya said:

Question for the medical experts.  No attempt at being morbid, just asking.

Can a baby be born that early and that small realistically survive?

I know two who were born 10 weeks early, both in the 2-pound range, now 7 and 6 years old; one has some issues (and I don't know how much is from being a preemie and how much is just genetics or other factors; for example, he has asthma which is common with preemies but it also runs in the family so there's a decent chance he'd have had it anyway) but is generally healthy, and the other is perfectly fine.

[MsJamieDornan]

52 minutes ago, deaja said:

I think the bigger issue is that Beth has put her career dreams (urban planning and dance) on hold for years for the good of the family.

When did she put it on hold ? She mentioned she was at her last job for 12 years, I think? What is Beth's employment history, do we really know ?

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

This show.  I learn so much from it about the world around me and how things are viewed today, all so different from when I was the Big Three's age.  I told my husband this morning about Randall's voice mail and their issues and the general anti-Randall tone of this board and we just don't know what to think.  We've been married 39 years and our marriage, our division of labor, priority of jobs, etc. is so different.  His Air Force job always came before my banking jobs because, one, he earned twice as much, and two, it was understood that when he got reassigned, I would have to quit my job and start over at the new town (or new country.)  I have always done 100% of the housework and yard work, and that's because I'm OCD about it all and don't want anyone else touching my perfect linen closets or trimming the shurbs. This aggravates my women friends who might feel the same way about their linen closets, but by damn are going to make him do his half whether they really want to go back and do it right or not.  So we seem like a traditional, unequal partnership on the outside but we, and most of my friends my age, are so much more independent than the young couples we know who can't go five minutes without texting each other and must be supportive of every little thing the other one does. 

During his 22 year military career I went to exactly two functions.  This is one spousal unit who felt no need to smile by his side  during long awards dinners.  I never once called him at work and he only called me one time.  We figured news could wait until we got home.  Now that we're retired he volunteers three days a week at a non-profit charity.  I never go along, I feel I serve by doing everything at home so he has time.  He goes to a Methodist church and plays in the contemporary Christian band.  I hate that shit.  I go to the Episocpal church.  We meet afterward for lunch.  He plays in the local orchestra, I go listen once every few years. (Yawn) I love ballet and most of my life was one of Beth's  women taking night classes.  My husband never once asked to see me dance.  We neither one own cell phones, you couldn't pay us to carry one of those things around all day.

So.  I thought Randall was just talking to himself when he was sending that voice mail, but, even knowing he really sent it,  I simply can't hate him and get on board with the "he became a different, unforgiveable person" thing.  He thought she had stood him up without so much as a word and was refusing to answer his texts.  He was angry and people sometimes do get angry and say awful things in the moment.  That moment doesn't negate years of being a devoted husband and father, even one with selfish tendencies. 

Beth has every right to "pursue her dreams" but she should never have picked this moment in their lives to do it.  If she had told him before he ran for city council that she wanted to teach dance in the evenings and so he couldn't take that sort of job, it would be different, but she didn't and now it's just not possible for them both to be working after school hours without all this frantic stress we're witnessing.  She's not being practical and I think they're both being stupid.  They have kids to finish raising.  If Beth can't say, "I'm sorry I can't go for drinks, I have kids to get home to, " and Randall can't say, "I would love to come to dinner, but my wife wont be able to come, she works in the evenings, " then there's something wrong with those jobs.  People aren't hired for unlimited hours or guaranteed spousal participation.  Those things should never be part of any job.

Also.  Beth arriving at the dinner late and then immediately asking to further disrupt dinner by charging her phone?  How rude was that?

That's very interesting, and a good illustration of how many different ways there are to make relationships and arrangements work.  I think in the case of Randall and Beth and their aspirations for themselves and how that intertwines with their family, the big problem is that Beth has had to submerge herself into multiple situations that Randall has been creating without her input.  As someone else pointed out and you allude to, it is something she should have strenuously asserted herself about long ago, and now it has reached a breaking point.  Randall puts what he wants and thinks is important above all else as illustrated in this episode by his behavior at the middle school dance.  He had to be forced to do the right thing by his parents.  I'm not demonizing him for it and Beth is not just a victim of him, but I think his single-minded focus on what he deems important is the root of the problem.  He needs to break out of that pattern/mindset but I doubt he can without outside help. 

[Maximona]

I was very happy to go on hate-watching this show, so I surprised myself by actually liking this episode.

Sure, Randall was an asshole, but I've left messages like that on my husband's voicemail, and he's left messages like that on my voicemail. It's one of the ugly truths about intimate relationships:  Your significant other is generally the safest person to lash out against when everything is going wrong.  And I personally don't know anyone who hasn't taken advantage of that fact from time to time.  Is it a good thing to do?  NO.  But people do it. Obviously, you don't want it to become a frequent dynamic, and if it's anything more than an extremely rare occurrence, the marriage is in Big Trouble.

I also thought the Kate/Toby/baby scenes were pretty well done.  I'm an ER nurse, but occasionally when the hospital is short-staffed, they will float me to the ICN.  And this is indeed the dynamic you see between parents, and between parents and their infants.

Lots of women in their 30s don't want kids. IVF is a $40 billion industry because women in their 40s change their minds.

[AriAu]

Quote

I acually find Randall's behaviour pretty plausible, if I take the position that This is Us is trying to show people as they are instead of idealized versions of what they 'should' be.  People are assholes sometimes, and unreasonable sometimes, and hurtful and thoughtless sometimes, even if they're otherwise good people.  In this case, Randall's tired and has been running non-stop because he's trying to be everything to everyone, and yeah, he has the same sort of internal attitude to Beth's dancing as Jack did towards Rebecca's singing, and he was stressed and frustrated and angry and he lashed out - which is what stressed, frustrated angry people do.  This does not in any way excuse his behaviour, but it makes it more realistic to me that if he had been sweet and kind and supportive in that voicemail.  

That being said, what a terrible voicemail to leave!  If I were Beth I'd be just as furious and I'd be considering ending the relationship.  Respect in marriage is not optional, and showing that kind of contempt for your partner is the height of unacceptable behaviour. 

Bingo...or at least I hope so. I think they are trying to show Randall and all of the characters as inherently good people who dont always do good things...and that voicemail was definitely NOT a good thing.

Quote

When his ex told him that he always gets what he wants, I thought that meant that she might end up back with him.  Kind of like leaving the door open.

I read it differently-the Kevin Sophie door is slammed shut, but Kevin took it as "he always gets what he wants" and what he wants is Zoe AND a baby and first he needs to get/keep Zoe and then he will get a baby with her since he always gets what he wants! He is simple enough and more than selfish enough to think that way.....and shockingly, he is not the Pearson brother I have the least respect for this week!

3 small points

1. Did Kevin tell Sophie about Kate and the baby? Sophie was Kate's friend first and was part of the family  and is, you know, a nurse!

2. When Zoe talked about having sex on the kitchen counter, I thought about "When Harry Met Sally" and Meg Ryan/Sally talking about she and her husband saying they could do it on the kitchen floor, but it was such cold Mexican tile.. ok, this one wasnt supposed to be a funny moment, but I still thought about it.

3. Took me a couple minutes to place Finch's voice..and yes, i know he has been in Scorpion and other things besides American Pie, but he will always be Finch to me. Not sure how many episodes that he'll be on, but it would be nice if he and Toby could become friends so that Toby had someone to talk to.

Edited March 20, 2019 by AriAu

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

When did she put it on hold ? She mentioned she was at her last job for 12 years, I think? What is Beth's employment history, do we really know ?

In Season 1, it was mentioned she was working from home and was waiting until the girls were a little older before going back to full-time. That was why she was unhappy about the pregnancy scare.

[txhorns79]

3 minutes ago, AriAu said:

1. Did Kevin tell Sophie about Kate and the baby? Sophie was Kate's friend first and was part of the family  and is, you know, a nurse!

Honestly, given Sophie isn't in the picture for the family anymore, Kate's situation isn't really her business. 
 

Quote

Sure, Randall was an asshole, but I've left messages like that on my husband's voicemail, and he's left messages like that on my voicemail. It's one of the ugly truths about intimate relationships:  Your significant other is generally the safest person to lash out against when everything is going wrong.  And I personally don't know anyone who hasn't taken advantage of that fact from time to time.  Is it a good thing to do?  NO.  But people do it. Obviously, you don't want it to become a frequent dynamic, and if it's anything more than an extremely rare occurrence, the marriage is in Big Trouble.

Just in my experience, I know I've left unpleasant messages, but I thought ridiculing Beth's job and generally demeaning her as someone who is "teaching bored housewives how to twirl," was well beyond the level of acceptable frustration that spouses sometimes feel towards one another.   

Edited March 20, 2019 by txhorns79

[AriAu]

Quote

Honestly, given Sophie isn't in the picture for the family anymore, Kate's situation isn't really her business. 

I'm not saying it was her business, but given the history and how Kevin has been portrayed, I was surprised that he did not at least mention it to her.....although it would have taken the focus off of what they needed to discuss. I know he is self-centered (to put it mildly), but i would assume he couldnt help himself and I was surprised there wasn't a throw-away line at the end from Sophie like "tell Kate...."

[GodsBeloved]

11 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Good point.  I hadn't thought about that.  

It really was horrible.  That "showing housewives how to twirl" remark was particularly mean.  And Randall telling someone to grow up is laughable.

You mean bored housewives, BORED housewives. 

Screw Randall. Give me kid Randal, teen Randal and teen Beth.

[Biggie B]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The whole reason that Randall insisted his dinner was important was that the guy who invited him to dinner (the city council president) assigns the new councilmen to their committees so he needed BETH to be there to make a good impression.

I'm dismayed that the writers made Beth such an integral part of to what committees Randall might or might not end up assigned. What if Randall was single? What if Beth had been out of the country, or at home sick with the flu, and literally unable to attend? This reminded me of 'Leave It To Beaver,' or 'Father Knows Best,' where the husband lets his wife know at the 11th hour that THE BOSS is coming to their house for dinner, and the wife has to scramble like all hell to prepare a stunning three-course gourmet dinner, while looking beautifully done up from head to toe. If Randall can't make a good enough impression on the more senior politician on his own, then...that's sort of pathetic. And I totally got where Beth was coming from when she explained how important it was to her to be invited out with the studio owner and her other colleagues. But...it was all about how Randall and Beth each interpreted the situation, and they clearly weren't seeing things from the same point of view. Their upcoming fight should be scathing - they both have so much pent up anger, so it should be a whopper. And they are both going to say some pretty hideous things - can't wait!

Don't really care about Kate and Toby's situation. I hope for the best for the baby but otherwise...whatever. My cousin's first child was born over 2 months early and was in the NICU for a couple of months; my cousin would go to the hospital before work and then immediately afterwards, with his wife being there almost 24/7 (she didn't work), so perhaps that's the routine that Toby might settle into. Right now, less than a week after a very complicated birth, I'm not bothered at all that he is apparently there almost 24/7 (let's hope that Madison is caring for their dog). He may have a modest paternity leave from his employer. As for Kate still being a patient, that works for me - as has been pointed out, she herself may be having some residual issues or complications (while I didn't have a C-section, a modest fever was enough for my doctor to have me stay another day). 

I don't see Kevin as parent material, which is totally fine, not every person on earth has to be a parent, so I hope that he abides by his decision and focuses on his sobriety and  his relationship with Zoe. I'm sure there will be plenty of setbacks and struggle along the way, this being a soap opera and all. 

[Katy M]

50 minutes ago, nlkm9 said:

Ok first off i dont beleive for a second her phone was "dead" and that she does not own a car charger. no way. And I have stopped at the gas sttaion and bought one when I was in that sitaution--she was willing to drive 3 hours and not check on her kids? nope--dont buy it. she is  always on Randalls case--on everyones case-and she should have told Randall not to run---to ask himto dropout at last minute was ridiculous. I just dont like her at all, I tried but cannot warm up to her. Randall is a bit nuts too but she allows him to do these things, like adopt Deja (which turned out well but could have been a disaster) but in seeing the show it was interesting to see how anal he always was.

I don't own a car charger, and I don't think I would try to stop for one in the middle of a traffic jam, because that would make me even later.  Beth's passive-aggressiveness drives me crazy, but I think if she said her phone was dead and there was an accident, it was probably dead and there was an accident.  An accident that causes a traffic jam would be easily verifiable.

[greekmom]

I honestly thought Beth was lying to Randall about the whole "drinks after work" thing.  

Randall is selfish, and he cannot continue to be a councilman for a place that he is so far away from.  At my company years ago, there was a CEO that her home was an hour away.  She got a place to live near the company for weekdays and a hired car to take her back and forth to her home of origin and it was still a hardship.  She decided to leave the position after a year. 

Both Beth and Randall are very selfish people who are just phoning in at this point to their relationship.  The whole Beth to Randall "Babe, you should have heard the shout out" conversation was so fake interested in my view.  Both of them do not give a crap on the career paths the other has taken except it is all about "how you don't support ME ME ME and MY CAREER decision."

Not feeling the Kate & Toby storyline.

MVP is and always will be Kevin.  I was hoping for maybe a tiny future shot at the end showing if Kevin got what he wanted (a child) and keeping the mother hidden so we can keep guessing if things with Zoe will work out or not. 

[luna1122]

1 minute ago, greekmom said:

MVP is and always will be Kevin.  I was hoping for maybe a tiny future shot at the end showing if Kevin got what he wanted (a child) and keeping the mother hidden so we can keep guessing if things with Zoe will work out or not. 

I don't think Kevin necessarily really wants a child. I think he just assumed, without giving it much thought, that he'd have kids, cuz 'that's what people do'. Not to say he doesn't want them but I don't think it's some burning desire/need for him, at this point, anyway. Who knows?

My guy and I never say really mean things to each other (I definitely did, in my first marriage, and hey, no shock we're divorced), not even at our worst, not even in the heat of anger (we don't really fight), but still, both of us were like: "dude, just tell her you were mad and frustrated and left a mean message." And he did, and Beth is pissed and I get it, but the message itself, of course, isn't really the problem, hateful as it was.

I thought about Kate and the baby with Sophie too...I hate that they just dropped that Kate and Sophie were good friends as kids. People lose touch, grow apart, etc but I'd still want to know the big news about someone who used to be a good friend, let alone one that was almost my family.

I thought about When Harry Met Sally too, and the 'cold hard Mexican tile' line, when Zoe was talking about good reasons to not have kids.

[3 is enough]

 The flashback with kid Randall obsessing over the fact that his average in Biology was 0.1% lower than the class average pretty much explained adult Randall.

I can't decide what the writers are trying to do with the character, but my best guess is they are showing that he is just as flawed as Kevin and Kate. 

I can give him a pass for taking William in- he finally found his bio dad, and the man was dying, so there was no time to waste.  But it's been downhill from there.  Has he hit rock bottom?  Time will tell I guess.

I am looking forward to the flashbacks of his and Beth's early relationship and wedding.  

The big question is whether they make up or split up.  And are they going to end the season with a cliffhanger?

[GodsBeloved]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm glad that Sophie has moved on. She deserves happiness and to finally be outside of Kevin's vortex. First he decides he'd rather TP with his friends than dance with his girlfriend, and then he peer pressures her into joining in when she clearly didn't want to. It was very sweet of him to send Billy Joel tickets to Sophie and Grant though.

I thought it was interesting to see kid Sophie being charmed by kid Kevin into doing something she didn't want to do. It reminds me of season 1 when he met her at "their" place and charmed her into seeing him again (and I think she was seeing someone else at the time). Compare that to Zoe. She straight up said Kevin is charming and makes her want to smile at him too yet she chose to be direct about having kids and isn't moving off of that even for charming Kevin.

This is This Is Us though so I wouldn't be surprised to see Zoe and Kevin mirroring Rebecca and Jack, who had the same conversation. IF they go there, I hope Zoe has a change of heart that's independent of Kevin, that she doesn't change her mind for him but for herself.

I too thought it was sweet of Kevin to send the Billy Joel tickets. He's actually listening to others and in this case he chose to do something nice for a guy he never met because he wanted to do something nice for his childhood sweetheart.

Edited March 20, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[BonnieD]

Couldn't even make it through the episode (I DVR) without coming here to vent! First, Beth was being passive aggressive and childish about her dumb performance. Why does your husband have to see what you did at work, like some kid dancing on the end of a diving board going "look at me jump. Look, look, look!" You're a grown up. You got the job you wanted. Just do it for the pleasure of doing something you love, not so your spouse or your supervisor strokes your ego.

2nd. I hate, hate, hate, hate!! that in shows like this and Parenthood no one expects the children to do work at home. packing lunches for three competent young ladies? Doing the dishes and other household chores instead of delegating? Teach them how to do the frickin' laundry for themselves and for you. Not to sound old fogey-ish but today's parents are ridiculously undemanding of their children. Ours, I'm proud to say, could do all of those tasks from the time they were young. End rant.

[nlkm9]

26 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't own a car charger, and I don't think I would try to stop for one in the middle of a traffic jam, because that would make me even later.  Beth's passive-aggressiveness drives me crazy, but I think if she said her phone was dead and there was an accident, it was probably dead and there was an accident.  An accident that causes a traffic jam would be easily verifiable.

I meant before I left I would hit a gas station, I have done that a few times. Beth is so controlling I cant imagine her not neing willing to be out of touch with her kids for that length of time, or even the type that ever lets her phone die. just my opinion. If you have 3 kids, and a husband who is several hours away I doubt you would have a dead phone and no car charger. but thats just me.

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I found it interesting that they didn't know this about each other, especially since Kate declared herself the only person to carry a piece of Jack or whatever remark she made. I know that hurt Randall. I thought Kevin was upset about it, too. Maybe he wasn't dating Zoe back then. 

Kevin actually said the thought of kids made him sick and I'm glad they addressed that with Zoe's comment about his attitude when Kate was trying to get pregnant and why she thought they were on the same page. Kevin has changed his tune from back then to now.

Edited March 20, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[janeyjay]

13 hours ago, kris4n6 said:

As an aside, I understand singing "You Are My Sunshine", because the first verse is great. I sang it to my son (and my cat before that, lol). But the second verse, that I never heard until I listened to a nursery rhyme CD, is a killer. "The other night, dear, as I lay sleeping, I dreamed I held you in my arms. When i awoken I was mistaken, and I hung my head and cried" Maybe I always go to worst case scenario but yikes. Not something I'd want to sing to a medically fragile child.

Also, no way that 1) Kate's insurance still had her in the hospital (my son was in NICU and after 4 nights I was discharged) and 2) she stood up way too quickly and easily for someone who had just had a c-section.  I know I couldn't have, and I had a textbook easy recovery.

That scene with Kate singing to Jack was an exact reenactment of me singing to my 25-week NICU kiddo. I never ever sang verse two, and even changed the words to verse one to end with "You bring sunshine every day" rather than "Please don't take my sunshine away" because even that was a little too painful. 

And I agree with Kate moving around way too jauntily for someone who'd just had an emergency c-section. I delivered my kiddo without need for surgery and I was even moving more slowly than that. 

The conversation with Toby and Gavin (?) was realistic. Those dark thoughts do cross your mind, horrible as it may seem. It's normal and perhaps part of the NICU Parent survival instinct during a time when nothing is normal or familiar.

[GodsBeloved]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think it's been around a year. She said that she met Grant shortly after she and Kevin broke up and that he proposed six months later. She's still engaged, not married, and most people take 6-12 months to plan a wedding so it would fit that she and Kevin broke up about a year ago.

I didn't read it that way at all. I thought she was just pointing out that because he is attractive and charming, he has gotten a lot of things in life that he wanted without even having to think about it. That's not to say that everything in his life has been perfect, just that he hasn't realized the extent to which he has gotten what he wanted because he has been able to coast on his good looks and charm. Zoe even pointed out in therapy how easily he charms people, including herself and their therapist.

That's how I saw it too. Kevin rarely if ever had to chose between 2 things he really wanted, because as she said, Kevin always got everything what he wanted. He's telling her he wants kids and he wants Zoe but this time he has to chose because he can't have both, which is how it typically has worked out for him.

[tennisgurl]

Randall is in so many ways being selfish and isnt thinking about his family and how they feel, but I do think its kind of in character for what we already saw of him in season one, just taken to less likable extremes. He has always had strong emotions, always had big dreams, could always have tunnel vision when it came to what he thinks is best. Its just maybe meeting William through him into a bit of a mid life crisis, feeling like he needed to make connections with his long lost bio dad after he died, and is now obsessed with reliving a life he could have had with William, or just the life that William had. He has gotten so obsessed with it, its made him forget how to be a good partner to Beth, and at the worst time, due to Beth losing her job. I wish they would have Beth and Randall really talk about their issues and work things out, as they are really struggling. While I think that Randall is the one most in the wrong, I think that Beth has been in the wrong some of the time as well. The two of them are both so excited by living their new dreams, that they arent talking anymore, or considering each others feelings. I just that Randall just admits that he is trying to connect with his bio family, and Beth is reliving the dream she felt she was unfairly forced to give up by her mom, and thats what this is about, and they can work from there. I think its interesting that Zoe brought up Kevin's natural charm, and we saw Sophie again, and in flashbacks see her getting charmed into doing stuff she didnt want to do. I think that a reoccurring thing with Kevin is that he is naturally charming, and he kind of hides behind that, even when he isnt trying to.  Zoe knowing that and seeing past it to his real problems and who he is behind his million dollar smiles is could be a great thing for both of them.

I was actually really happy that Kevin and Zoe were getting therapy right away, and that she apparently confronted him right away about lying to her and drinking at the hospital. As for Kevin and Zoe, I really like them, I hope that they really can make it out, but I think this is a bad time for them to be making these big choices about their lives. Kevin is very recently sober and is desperate to stay with Zoe, and do what he thinks will make her happy, so is could just be saying what will make her happy. Maybe he really does think now that having kids isnt that big of a deal to him, but as he really does like kids and does great with them. But maybe he would like being cool uncle Kevin instead of being a father, and can just focus on his other issues and building on his other relationships? 

You are my sunshine is a really pretty but actually very sad song. Really, the "dont take my sunshine away" line is very sadly relevant to Kate and Toby's baby. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Marci]

The whole Beth-Randall thing was soooo set up.  Randall asking Beth to give up her job.  Her new job being a very low-paid job, compared to who’s she been her whole working career.  Randall calling her job working with  ‘bored housewives’.  Who here did not see it coming that she would show up after that voicemail.

It is not a generational thing.  It’s bullshit.  It’s the media shoving the Me Too movement down our throats, but in an unrealistic way.

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

I thought about Kate and the baby with Sophie too...I hate that they just dropped that Kate and Sophie were good friends as kids. People lose touch, grow apart, etc but I'd still want to know the big news about someone who used to be a good friend, let alone one that was almost my family.

Wasn't it revealed that kid Sophie only became "friends" with kid Kate to get close to kid Kevin? I think she was also in that group at the pool who didn't want to play with Kate anymore because she was fat. If my memory is spot on, I could see no mention of Kate to Sophie since they really weren't friends, let alone good friends.

Edited March 20, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[GodsBeloved]

48 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

I can't decide what the writers are trying to do with the character, but my best guess is they are showing that he is just as flawed as Kevin and Kate.  The flashback with kid Randall obsessing over the fact that his average in Biology was 0.1% lower than the class average pretty much explained adult Randall.

Good point. 

Now that I have calmed down, I hope they balance it a little more. I'm still rooting for The Big 3, flaws and all.

[llewis823]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

At the very least, I think Kevin's reaction won't be out of anger since he knows Zoe doesn't want kids for sure, even if she was pregnant. 

Or maybe, if you are adamant that you do not want kids, you do something to prevent pregnancy in the first place...just sayin'

[Sharyn]

5 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Kevin can't make a final decision about having kids, or having Zoe, right now.  He's newly sober again, that has to be his priority.  He made his choice in like one day?  That's impulsivity rearing its ugly head again, it's the Pearson way.  He just chooses an AA meeting right near Sophie's?  I know he's trying to find the right fit, but that was his choice to walk by her place.  Why?  He's not as fully committed to Zoe as he thinks, and he doesn't know what he wants.  He doesn't want to be alone. 

You are very insightful; i hadn't thought that far about why Kevin chose the AA meeting near Sophie.  I just LOVE this avenue to explore and discuss our favorite show!  

[llewis823]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

If at any time in my life I had won the lottery I would have resigned the next day.  Am I the only person who works for money and not because it's my dream?

Same here x 1,000!!!

[GodsBeloved]

48 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think its interesting that Zoe brought up Kevin's natural charm, and we saw Sophie again, and in flashbacks see her getting charmed into doing stuff she didnt want to do. I think that a reoccurring thing with Kevin is that he is naturally charming, and he kind of hides behind that, even when he isnt trying to.  Zoe knowing that and seeing past it to his real problems and who he is behind his million dollar smiles is could be a great thing for both of them.

I was actually really happy that Kevin and Zoe were getting therapy right away, and that she apparently confronted him right away about lying to her and drinking at the hospital. As for Kevin and Zoe, I really like them, I hope that they really can make it out, but I think this is a bad time for them to be making these big choices about their lives. Kevin is very recently sober and is desperate to stay with Zoe, and do what he thinks will make her happy, so is could just be saying what will make her happy. Maybe he really does think now that having kids isnt that big of a deal to him, but as he really does like kids and does great with them. But maybe he would like being cool uncle Kevin instead of being a father, and can just focus on his other issues and building on his other relationships? 

I love that dynamic. Zoe sees the charm, likes the charm but isn't snake charmed by Kevin.

I hope they make it too and hope the foundation they appear to be building will sustain them if the subject of kids ever comes up again.

Edited March 20, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Pop Tart]

I think they did a good job with the Kevin/Zoe developments and discussion. Both actors played it well. The woman playing Zoe did a good job with expressing that she doesn't want to have kids but also with her body language and expressions making it clear that she was a little bit hoping that this would be the thing to force them to break up. You can tell she's sure they're going to break up at some point and she was a little hopeful that this would be the thing. (Even though she loves him and doesn't want to break up). She can feel it coming at some point because that's been her pattern and what she's experienced, so she's kind of bracing for it and pushing for it at the same time.

And as for Kevin's reactions - they make sense too. Women have a shorter window in their lifetimes to have children so it's not unusual for them to have thought pretty seriously about the idea of kids. Because the window to have kids is, for all intents and purposes, their entire adult lifetime for guys, it's realistic that the extent of Kevin's thinking about it is 'sure I want kids someday because that's what people in relationships do.'.

All of that was nicely done - even if it makes me sad to think of Kevin losing another relationship.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Pop Tart

[GSMHvisitor]

23 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Wasn't it revealed that Sophie only became "friends" with Kate to get close to Kevin? I think she was also in that group at the pool who didn't want to play with Kate anymore because she was fat. If my memory is spot on, I could see no mention of Kate to Sophie since they really weren't friends, let alone good friends.

There were mentions though. In season 1 Kevin and Sophie mentioned Kate 2 separate times. When they had their first real conversation on the subway in 1x14 Sophie asked Kevin how Kate was doing. He then told her about Katte's engagement. She was also mentioned in a talk in 1x17.

And Sophie was not among the girls who were mean to Kate. The girl from the pool was spelt Sofie, plus Kate and Sophie's childhood friendship was revealed in a later episode, that was also later in the timeline. I agree though, there was never much to their friendship. It was never explored beyond the point that it existed.

[luna1122]

28 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Wasn't it revealed that kid Sophie only became "friends" with kid Kate to get close to kid Kevin? I think she was also in that group at the pool who didn't want to play with Kate anymore because she was fat. If my memory is spot on, I could see no mention of Kate to Sophie since they really weren't friends, let alone good friends.

I don't recall that, but I could be wrong. I THOUGHT we definitely knew she wasn't one of the 'fat girl' friends, (a Sofi, as opposed to Sophie) but maybe that was all just speculation.

About Sophie and Kevin moving on...it just seemed fast, to me, to be already in such serious relationships. After my divorce, I dated a hell of a lot, but no way did I want to get serious for YEARS. But everyone's different, and Sophie and Kevin had already gotten been thru all this before, so maybe once this breakup stuck, they'd already both done their time healing from it all, and were ready for something serious.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, AriAu said:

 When Zoe talked about having sex on the kitchen counter, I thought about "When Harry Met Sally" and Meg Ryan/Sally talking about she and her husband saying they could do it on the kitchen floor, but it was such cold Mexican tile.. ok, this one wasnt supposed to be a funny moment, but I still thought about it.

Haha, I was thinking of Sally talking about the cold hard Mexican ceramic tile too!

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Randall is selfish, and he cannot continue to be a councilman for a place that he is so far away from.  At my company years ago, there was a CEO that her home was an hour away.  She got a place to live near the company for weekdays and a hired car to take her back and forth to her home of origin and it was still a hardship.  She decided to leave the position after a year. 

I have lived in three large metropolitan areas in California (San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco/Bay Area) and in all three, a one hour commute is pretty common. I used to drive an hour to teach evening dance classes after my full time day job. Distance-wise, it wasn’t actually that far but with traffic it was always an hour away after work. But it’s also common for people to live 30+ miles from where they work, either because they don’t want to live downtown/in an apartment, they want a yard, or they can’t afford to buy in the middle of the city. 

12 minutes ago, llewis823 said:

Or maybe, if you are adamant that you do not want kids, you do something to prevent pregnancy in the first place...just sayin'

Nothing is 100% effective except complete abstinence. I know several people who got pregnant while using birth control (one recent couple was using two types of birth control and still got pregnant!). Never forget:

[Ohiopirate02]

6 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I don't recall that, but I could be wrong. I THOUGHT we definitely knew she wasn't one of the 'fat girl' friends, (a Sofi, as opposed to Sophie) but maybe that was all just speculation.

About Sophie and Kevin moving on...it just seemed fast, to me, to be already in such serious relationships. After my divorce, I dated a hell of a lot, but no way did I want to get serious for YEARS. But everyone's different, and Sophie and Kevin had already gotten been thru all this before, so maybe once this breakup stuck, they'd already both done their time healing from it all, and were ready for something serious.

Sophie may be moving quickly with her new man, but she is also 38.  She could be settling because her window is starting to close if she wants children.  Of course, this is all speculation.

[izabella]

49 minutes ago, Marci said:

The whole Beth-Randall thing was soooo set up.  Randall asking Beth to give up her job.  Her new job being a very low-paid job, compared to who’s she been her whole working career.  Randall calling her job working with  ‘bored housewives’.  Who here did not see it coming that she would show up after that voicemail.

It is not a generational thing.  It’s bullshit.  It’s the media shoving the Me Too movement down our throats, but in an unrealistic way.

#MeToo is about sexual assault and sexual harassment.  I'm not sure how you are applying it here.  That has nothing to do with Beth and Randall or their job situations and reactions.

Edited March 20, 2019 by izabella

[Sharyn]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think it's been around a year. She said that she met Grant shortly after she and Kevin broke up and that he proposed six months later. She's still engaged, not married, and most people take 6-12 months to plan a wedding so it would fit that she and Kevin broke up about a year ago.

I didn't read it that way at all. I thought she was just pointing out that because he is attractive and charming, he has gotten a lot of things in life that he wanted without even having to think about it. That's not to say that everything in his life has been perfect, just that he hasn't realized the extent to which he has gotten what he wanted because he has been able to coast on his good looks and charm. Zoe even pointed out in therapy how easily he charms people, including herself and their therapist.

I agree about Kevin not always getting what he wanted.  He was sandwiched in the middle of two siblings who got allll the attention, growing up.  Remember the pool speech: "where's Kevin?  Oh yeah, he's dead!"  His football career was ended prematurely with an injury.  He had the meltdown during a scene on his sitcom and lost his job.  He screwed up big time with Sophie multiple times.  He became an addict.  He relapsed.  Yes, of course Kevin is charming and handsome but his life hasn't been a fairy tale by any means.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

I thought about Kate and the baby with Sophie too...I hate that they just dropped that Kate and Sophie were good friends as kids. People lose touch, grow apart, etc but I'd still want to know the big news about someone who used to be a good friend, let alone one that was almost my family.

They weren't just almost family, they were in-laws when Kevin and Sophie were married, years before they reconnected after divorce.  My head canon is that Kevin told Sophie the baby news on their way to the coffee shop.  It would come up naturally. 

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Honestly, given Sophie isn't in the picture for the family anymore, Kate's situation isn't really her business. 
 

Just in my experience, I know I've left unpleasant messages, but I thought ridiculing Beth's job and generally demeaning her as someone who is "teaching bored housewives how to twirl," was well beyond the level of acceptable frustration that spouses sometimes feel towards one another.   

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

You mean bored housewives, BORED housewives. 

Screw Randall. Give me kid Randal, teen Randal and teen Beth.

As out of line as I believe Randall's behavior is, I'm not ready to throw in the towel on him -- or on him with Beth and both of them happy, thriving and pulling together.   

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I don't own a car charger, and I don't think I would try to stop for one in the middle of a traffic jam, because that would make me even later.  Beth's passive-aggressiveness drives me crazy, but I think if she said her phone was dead and there was an accident, it was probably dead and there was an accident.  An accident that causes a traffic jam would be easily verifiable.

If I'm late I'm not stopping for a phone charger.   I don't think verifying an accident should be a consideration in the circumstances.  As far as whether or not it would be easily verifiable after the fact, no.  Every accident that causes a traffic jam here isn't newsworthy, so I'm not sure how someone could easily verify it after the fact.  

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

My guy and I never say really mean things to each other (I definitely did, in my first marriage, and hey, no shock we're divorced), not even at our worst, not even in the heat of anger (we don't really fight), but still, both of us were like: "dude, just tell her you were mad and frustrated and left a mean message." And he did, and Beth is pissed and I get it, but the message itself, of course, isn't really the problem, hateful as it was.

This is a milestone year in decades of marriage for us, so understanding the push and the pull and the less than rosy side of marriage isn't at all new to me.  I felt a burn in the pit of my stomach for Randall sitting there at that table, realizing that his beautiful wife who had sacrificed to come and dazzle to help him out was going to be (rightfully) wounded and furious when she heard that message.  That was far beyond the boundaries of letting off steam and frustration amongst spouses.  That's definitely gonna leave a mark.   

59 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

That's how I saw it too. Kevin rarely if ever had to chose between 2 things he really wanted, because as she said, Kevin always got everything what he wanted. He's telling her he wants kids and he wants Zoe but this time he has to chose because he can't have both, which is how it typically has worked out for him.

End of the day I think Kevin is feeling particularly vulnerable and especially now believes he needs Zoe.  When it's all said and done I think Kevin has always somehow assumed he had plenty of time to have a family and especially now with Kate starting a family he may be beginning to recognize the time is approaching for him at last.  The timing of Kevin and Zoe is so unfortunate for both.  I fear he's pushing down his desire for a family and she's ultimately going to let her guard down with him and they're both going to really get hurt when it comes crashing down around them.      

[GodsBeloved]

7 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I think they did a good job with the Kevin/Zoe developments and discussion. Both actors played it well. The woman playing Zoe did a good job with expressing that she doesn't want to have kids but also with her body language and expressions making it clear that she was a little bit hoping that this would be the thing to force them to break up. You can tell she's sure they're going to break up at some point and she was a little hopeful that this would be the thing. (Even though she loves him and doesn't want to break up). She can feel it coming at some point because that's been her pattern and what she's experienced, so she's kind of bracing for it and pushing for it at the same time.

And as for Kevin's reactions - they make sense too. Women have a shorter window in their lifetimes to have children so it's not unusual for them to have thought pretty seriously about the idea of kids. Because the window to have kids is, for all intents and purposes, their entire adult lifetime for guys, it's realistic that the extent of Kevin's thinking about it is 'sure I want kids someday because that's what people in relationships do.'.

All of that was nicely done - even if it makes me sad to think of Kevin losing another relationship.

I saw it a little differently. I thought Zoe was afraid Kevin would chose kids, not that she wanted him to make that choice so she could walk.

I absolutely loved Zoe's directness. She loves him but does not want kids. She is all in with him if he doesn't need kids to complete him. If he does, she does not want to waste her time or his. 

At this point, I can't reconcile this Zoe with a Zoe who was secretly hoping Kevin would give her an excuse to walk. What I can reconcile is this Zoe with a Zoe who would be just as direct if what she wanted was an end to her relationship with Kevin. I don't see why she's willing to waste her time and his if she wants out.

[BetyBee]

I think this episode's lesson was that Randall never changed from the little boy who was more involved in excelling at his test, than in honoring his commitment to the girl he'd agreed to dance with.  He had to be pushed by his parents to think of someone other than himself.  Kevin also never changed from the boy who always got what he wanted with little effort.  The difference is that Kevin is now willing to work on himself.  I'm not sure what the Kate lesson might be - I think it's about how she is stepping up to the challenges in her life.  I'm blown away by Randall's selfishness and his hateful message to his wife.  I hope he can finally see where he went wrong.  

[Marci]

11 minutes ago, izabella said:

MeToo is about sexual assault and sexual harassment.  I'm not sure how you are applying it here.  That has nothing to do with Beth and Randall or their job situations and reactions.

Yeah, I should have clarified that it’s not always the sexual harassment part, it’s mostly about women standing up for their rights.  Because at the end of the day, the Me Too is about women standing up for themselves.  And not letting men cross a line that they try to make blurry. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Marci

[Blondnotstupid]

15 hours ago, deaja said:

The beginning of the episode Beth/Randall stuff was ridiculous though. Him rushing home and her leaving as quickly as possible- I realize they don’t want the girls to be alone a ton, but they’re old enough to be left home for an hour or so as needed.

Exactly.  I got myself home on the bus and stayed for a couple of hours until Mom and/or Dad got home starting at age 8 or 9.  There were neighbors nearby who were home during the day if I needed help.  Surely there are similar neighbors near Beth and Randall.  

[Sharyn]

4 hours ago, preeya said:

Randall's damning phone message:

What, did you turn your phone off so you wouldn't have to deal with me while you're busy standing me up?

(LAUGHS)

You know, if you had told me something was this important to you,

Heaven and Earth couldn't have stopped me from being there.

But maybe that's the difference between us. I don't know.

I hope it was worth it. Okay?

I hope you're off having fun talking about
how to teach bored housewives how to twirl better.

Grow the hell up, Beth.

Thank you for posting this.  I often have difficulty hearing all the dialogue and have to watch twice.  You ROCK!

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Sharyn said:

Thank you for posting this.  I often have difficulty hearing all the dialogue and have to watch twice.  You ROCK!

Heaven help Randall if he attempts to minimize what he said when he and Beth start unpacking this situation, because she can replay every syllable for him.  

[GodsBeloved]

23 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I don't recall that, but I could be wrong. I THOUGHT we definitely knew she wasn't one of the 'fat girl' friends, (a Sofi, as opposed to Sophie) but maybe that was all just speculation.

The Pool is one of my favs so I'll rewatch if I must LOL

[Guest]

I pretty much ignored the Kevin storyline even though he is my favorite of the Big 3. It is dumb to me that at 39, Kevin is just now like “oh. I don’t know if I want kids someday.” I know men have a longer period of time than women do to biologically have children, but since his serious relationships have been with people similar to his age, you would think by now, he would have thought enough to know what he wants.

[izabella]

2 minutes ago, deaja said:

I pretty much ignored the Kevin storyline even though he is my favorite of the Big 3. It is dumb to me that at 39, Kevin is just now like “oh. I don’t know if I want kids someday.” I know men have a longer period of time than women do to biologically have children, but since his serious relationships have been with people similar to his age, you would think by now, he would have thought enough to know what he wants.

Men also don't have as long as they think they do.  Older bodies produce older sperm, which contributes to miscarriages, genetic diseases, and certain birth defects which can give a child long-term health issues.   If Kevin really wanted kids, he'd have given that some thought at some point in 39 years.

[Ohiopirate02]

18 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

If I'm late I'm not stopping for a phone charger.   I don't think verifying an accident should be a consideration in the circumstances.  As far as whether or not it would be easily verifiable after the fact, no.  Every accident that causes a traffic jam here isn't newsworthy, so I'm not sure how someone could easily verify it after the fact.  

If Randall has been driving back and forth from Philly to northern New Jersey, he will have some kind of app on his phone to alert him to major accidents--Google maps does this, Waze, etc.  He easily could have checked his phone before calling and texting Beth constantly.  His immediate reaction was that Beth blew him off and he did not waver on this.  This is a very human reaction.  

[GodsBeloved]

23 minutes ago, Sharyn said:

I agree about Kevin not always getting what he wanted.  He was sandwiched in the middle of two siblings who got allll the attention, growing up.  Remember the pool speech: "where's Kevin?  Oh yeah, he's dead!"  His football career was ended prematurely with an injury.  He had the meltdown during a scene on his sitcom and lost his job.  He screwed up big time with Sophie multiple times.  He became an addict.  He relapsed.  Yes, of course Kevin is charming and handsome but his life hasn't been a fairy tale by any means.

I think most of us here agree with this. But from Sophie's pov, it seems Kevin getting everything he wants is all or mostly what she's seen.

When she said that I thought, sure the superficial things but we the viewers know better.

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, Maximona said:

.Lots of women in their 30s don't want kids. IVF is a $40 billion industry because women in their 40s change their minds.

I'm not sure what your point is.  

Yes.  Some women who don't want children in their 30s change their minds in their 40s.  And some women do not.  Still other women choose consciously to delay for careers, to find a relationship, or any number of reasons and discover that they need assistance getting pregnant.  And still others, even relatively young when they try, find they need assistance.

Fertility medicine is not exclusively the providence of woman who changed their minds.  

Some people never want kids.  Some people know they want kids from the time they can understand the concept.  And still others change their minds.  Sometime partners agree that they do not want children only for one of them to change his or her mind and not the other.  But you should at least agree when you initially commit. You should never enter a committed relationship banking on the other person changing his or her mind about something as important as having kids.

Edited March 20, 2019 by RachelKM

[nlkm9]

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

Wasn't it revealed that kid Sophie only became "friends" with kid Kate to get close to kid Kevin? I think she was also in that group at the pool who didn't want to play with Kate anymore because she was fat. If my memory is spot on, I could see no mention of Kate to Sophie since they really weren't friends, let alone good friends.

I remember them showing sophie bullying kate and being very nasty to her.