S02.E10: By Means Which Have Never Yet Been Tried

[Ankai]

 Science/Profit vs Military  because religious extremism was just so boring.  

Well, it is science, at least. I am not sure what profit they got out of the cloning process yet.

 

That fire extinguisher plan confused me too. Also, I thought that maybe they were trying to build a makeshift rocket that would create enough chaos in the room for Sarah to make her way out, but no.

 

I didn't find that moment to be anti-abortion. It was probably a difficult time in Sarah's already difficult life and the questioner seemed rather callous with the question. Sarah may be tough, but I was personally okay with her not acting defensive about it at this time.

 

More plot conspiracy stuff. I am not sure where they are going with Project Castor and I also have trouble figuring out how much Paul knew about each project at what time. I have no real feelings about it being Ari Millen instead of Dylan or Jordan, but we shall see how it goes. I wonder if the friendly fire story in Afghanistan was just a cover for him having stumbled across clones. Could TPTB retcon that Paul actually did know about the female clones? Did he actually say that he did not know in the first season? He said that his Dyad bosses did not tell him why he was monitoring Sarah, but he actually say that he did not know? It could very well be that he knew that she was a clone, but did not realize that she also knew until she told him. And maybe I am thinking about this more than the showrunners have. I just hope that the constant plot twists regarding the fallout of Project Leda will slow down, but I am not holding my breath.

 

So, last season's finale had a contract and this one does as well.

 

The reveal of a young clone is interesting, though I am not sure why there could not have been eight of them wandering around Marion's house. Speaking of Marion, I still don't know what to make of her character or what her role was supposed to be in the season. She had, what, four scenes before the finale, and all I got was that she was some big boss or something. I had only a vague notion of what Dyad is and now it is revealed that it is part of an umbrella corporation. All right, then.

 

This episode just reinforced my wish that the episodes really were about an hour long rather than 43 1/2 minutes. That dance party scene was...fine, I guess. But there were three moments that I feel were sacrificed for it. The first was Cal actually meeting Alison and Cosima as opposed to saying goodbye. The second was Helena actually talking with Alison and Cosima...particularly Alison, since I would assume that Helena was going after both her and Beth when she arrived in the City. The third is a possible meeting between Art and the other clones, specifically talking about Angie with Alison. Really, I wish that Alison got more time.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Ankai

[marceline]

Clone dance party was EVERYTHING. The personality of the different dancers was adorable. Cosima all Lilith Fair twisty, Sarah's hip hop influence, Allison doing tired dance moves from years ago and Helena...being Helena. With little Kira as the frosting on the cake. I hadn't realized how much I've missed the Clone Club until Cosima stood up and hugged Helena.

 

To quote Duncan: Poor Rachel. Poor, poor Rachel. So lost, alone and crazy. She really seems to feel no connection to the clones. It was ironic to have the scene where her father killed himself leaving her utterly alone juxtaposed with the Helena finally coming "home" to her sestras, brother sestra and Kira.

 

Regarding the tank with Helena's eggs, if those eggs are fertilized then that means they have stem cells right? That could be a way to help Cosima.

 

One confusing thing for me, a couple of times Marion mentioned Sarah's mother. I assume she was talking about Mrs. S and not Amelia.

Edited June 22, 2014 by marceline

[lulee]

I don't find it believable that Paul was in on it all along, although from the interview that's clearly what the writers intended. I have a feeling Dylan Bruce didn't know that, which is why he seems in the dark about the clone project throughout season 1. I feel like that was the writers' sacrificing believability for shock value.

I don't recall exactly what they said, but I read it as Paul being a double agent all along, but more of a foot soldier earlier, not really informed. But he's more in on it since his promotion.

[CatMack]

Some other thoughts

 

I was waiting for the finale to decide if I was going to care about Cal, because maybe they'd reveal something about him that explained his completely unrealistic levels of accommodation of Sarah's bullshit.  But nope, he's just the most perfect plot device ever.  He takes 5 seconds to be mad at Sarah and question her story about Kira's paternity, and that's it.  After that 5 minutes he's totally over it, falling into bed with her, playing house, being totally OK with her presence destroying his life (again) to the point where he doesn't even care that she won't tell him anything.  He bonds with his daughter but is totally cool with Sarah taking her away again and makes no demands about remaining in her life.  Shows up to save the day with his super convenient contact that he developed entirely off screen, and then again apparently has no opinion about the shit that's going down and how it affects his kid and his life. 

 

It's hilarious to me the number of people I've seen who hate Paul because they find him boring and then in the next breath praise Cal for being so wonderful.  Cal is literally the most 2D character on this show.  His entire presence in season 2 could have been completely removed with very few changes (pretty much find somewhere else to stash Kira for a few eps and find another way to connect Marion to Mrs S, neither of which would be that hard).  I just don't care, and I end up resenting pretty much every second spent on his and Sarah's relationship because it's so forced and contrived and it takes time away from far more interesting relationships.  You know what I would have much rather seen over Cal and Sarah making out in a dirty hallway?  Sarah and Cosima and Alison having a discussion about meeting Helena, since the last time we saw Alison or Cosima really talk about Helena at all she was still a very dangerous presence in their lives.  I'm completely OK with them welcoming her, especially Cosima, as I think they'd be capable of understanding the way Helena was manipulated into doing what she did, and that she's helped Sarah since and seems to have turned over a new leaf.  But a scene actually acknowledging that Alison and Cosima should have logically had some concerns and reservations would have been a lot more important to me than seeing Sarah suck face with a character who's more plot device than person.

 

I do really appreciate the way season 2 fleshed out the relationship between Sarah and Cosima.  Their scene in bed in the finale was probably my favorite scene of the ep.  I really need them to do that next season with Alison and...well, anyone.  Even her relationship with Felix pretty much disappeared after the family day episode.  She was so isolated this season.  And I get that she wasn't the focus of Dyad/Rachel's ire this season, and that she doesn't have the skillset that Cosima has, or the inherent bond that Sara and Helena do.  I get that she's not as automatically tied to the other clones as closely and doesn't necessarily have as much relevance to the main plot.  But that's kind of the point, she's just floating around everyone right now.  I need her to be in the fold more often, if not physically than some other way (phone calls, texts, just being more involved in the main story in general, whatever).

 

ETA:

 

I don't recall exactly what they said, but I read it as Paul being a double agent all along, but more of a foot soldier earlier, not really informed. But he's more in on it since his promotion.

 

I got the impression from the way the writers phrased it in their interview that Paul knew everything all along.  But even without that, my problem is it makes no sense to send in a double agent to infiltrate LEDA if that spy doesn't know what's going on.  Like, what was his objective?  What types on information exactly was he gathering for them?  If he was completely in the dark as to the clones aspect, and he only very recently gained enough status within Dyad to get more information at a higher level, then what exactly has he been doing for the past several years?  And if he did know everything, it raises a lot of questions for me.  When Paul was revealed as a monitor I could look back and say yeah, that makes sense.  And looking at some of the stuff Paul said to "Beth", it told me things about him without them having to spell it out.  Like, Paul tries to get "Beth" to run away with him after she quits the force.  That made sense, and said something about his character, when it was revealed that he was a very unhappy monitor who was there against his will.  He wanted to escape Dyad's control and take Beth with him.  Now that he's been a double agent the whole time?  If Beth had agreed to run off to Rio, was Paul just going to leave the military all together, does he hate working for them too?  Or was he going to take her to them?  I'm at the point where I'm getting annoyed with how the writers are pacing both Paul's and Siobhan's story, because it's getting to the point where it feels vague because they haven't thought it through, not because there's a well plotted mystery they want to reveal slowly. 

Edited June 22, 2014 by CatMack

[tveyeonyou]

In the beginning did Sarah say she had an abortion? I wonder what made her decide to have Kira then, since she ended up abandoning her too for a bit. 

 

I wonder if Sarah's going to tell the others about their little sister. 

My take on the mini-clone is she is Sarah's aborted child. I know Marion said there were 400 clones and mini-Tat was the only one who survived. It made my mind think that since Sarah said she had an abortion when she was 14 and mini-her is 8 years old (not sure if they ever said exactly how old Sarah is but I can see her being 22 years old), and since Mrs S is the Keeper of Secrets and knew Marion, ugh this is hard to put into words, maybe somehow Sarah had a botched abortion and the child's leg was disfigured during the procedure.

Show! What are you doing to my brain????

 

And the male not-Mark clone in a cage, didn't he have the same scars on his back as Helena did in Season 1 when she was doing the flagellation rock?  

Speaking of Mark, I read an interview with the writers talking about how the Mark character was meant to be killed in the bar scene by Paul but they discovered that the actor was super good and the only one in the cast capable of doing the  male version of Tat-type clonage. I remain hopeful he can pull it off, they haven't let me down yet with this show.

 

And add me to the Kira healed Cosima, or at least had something to do with it. Cosima seemed to be truly most sincerely dead as Kira shook her, then she had those white-lighty visions of Delphine (which made me think Delphine may have been "on the plane"- hard to imagine Rachel just letting Delphine leave with all the knowledge she has about DYAD in her head), I don't know but something is up with Kira and healing powers.

 

This is going to be the longest summer ever waiting for Season 3.

[lulee]

And the male not-Mark clone in a cage, didn't he have the same scars on his back as Helena did in Season 1 when she was doing the flagellation rock?  

I'd have to rewatch, but I thought they were circular scars.

[Ankai]

My take on the mini-clone is she is Sarah's aborted child. I know Marion said there were 400 clones and mini-Tat was the only one who survived. It made my mind think that since Sarah said she had an abortion when she was 14 and mini-her is 8 years old (not sure if they ever said exactly how old Sarah is but I can see her being 22 years old), and since Mrs S is the Keeper of Secrets and knew Marion, ugh this is hard to put into words, maybe somehow Sarah had a botched abortion and the child's leg was disfigured during the procedure.

Show! What are you doing to my brain????

I thought that it was established in either the first or second episode that all of the adult female clones were nearing 30-years-old. If Sarah had been significantly younger, either her or Felix would have pointed that out.

 

Also Charlotte and Kira being the same age would make that unlikely, unless the age difference is ten months. And while the two actresses look similar, Charlotte looks exactly as Rachel did as a child...and Sarah, presumably.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Ankai

[bluebonnet]

 

 

The obligatory anti-abortion stance was jarring. 

 

 

I didn't read that as anti-abortion at all.  Previously, Sarah's reproductive choices were her own to make, or so she thought, except she never really owned her own body because she was simply a misplaced clone who belonged to an scientific institution.  If she had been monitored her whole life, she wouldn't have had the choice to abort.  There's also the irony of them asking her these questions while she's handcuffed and locked in a room.  But most of all, Sarah conceiving means something a little different now than it did then.  She was a mistake because someone designed her and her sisters to be barren.  She understands more than ever that being able to bear children is a huge gift, something that her sisters have been prevented from which also causes them to maybe eventually get sick and die.  

 

There's a lot going on there that has nothing at all to do with some pro-life stance.  

[Valny]

I'd have to rewatch, but I thought they were circular scars.

Yeah they were circular-ish. What I remember seeing, it was kind of blurry or not focused,so couldn't get a precise look. Good pickup linking it with Helena's tveyeonyou.

But boy,the crazed look in his eyes was creepy.

[The Crazed Spruce]

Well, I guess my whole "Felix-is-the-male-clone" theory is blown out of the water....

[Geo]

I got really nervous when Cosima wouldn't wake up.  Part of me thought they were just yanking our chain but another part of me just.....ugh, this show!  Like so many characters keep saying I am completely invested. I will sob uncontrolably if Cos dies.

 

Sarah - Yes! Finally she is doing something other than running. That whole scene with her in the hospital was just a nightmare.  I enjoyed seeing Rachel take a pencil to the eye more than any selfrespecting human being should.

 

Cosima - I'm so glad she got to do more than just be sick in this episode. I love, love, loved the scene between her and Kira when they were doing the experiment with the pencil.  "You won science!"  OMG so cute.  And the scene between her and Sarah in bed was so sad.  I'm not saying I cried....but this room is really dusty and...allergies .   And finally, when Kira asked Cos to read her a story I got so excited because I just KNEW she would give her the special book.  Her future is uncertain but right now there is hope and that's all I can ask for.

 

Helena - Loved seeing her meet all her sisters.  Hated seeing her taken by the military.  But, I have faith in that crazy angel. I think the military may have just met it's match.

 

and finally:

 

If it had been a clone Felix or clone Paul I would have disowned the show, doing so sadly but I would have had no choice, that would have been the biggest cop out imo for them to take.

 

 

I completely agree with this.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Geo

[CPP83]

Sarah - In the beginning, did she say she did have an abortion?

 

 

They really gave Tat's tear-ducts a workout for this finale, heh. But she did answer yes, she got emotional and whispered it but she confirmed that she had, it appears to be a quite painful part of her past, not that I'm surprised, Sarah is a ball of pain and distrust.

 

I hate to think of someone raping/taking advantage of the childlike Helena, but if she too matured and reached puberty as quickly as her twin, there's no telling if Helena might have gotten pregnant as a young girl also, it might explain why she reacts to children the way she does.

[Chaos Theory]

Well, I guess my whole "Felix-is-the-male-clone" theory is blown out of the water....

 

 

I am kinda disappointed.  I understand why the show didn't go that way (too dark even for this show - and I am not sure the actor as good as he is can pull off tough Military stuff) but I do think it would have been intriguing in alot of ways if they had gone that way.  Yes it would have been sort of obvious but that is not always a bad thing.  People put too much stock in unobvious storytelling routs but sometimes going to an obvious direction isn't a bad thing,  Still we know now he is not a literal brother-sister pity though,  the horror on everyones face if it was true.  

 

Well at least its not Donny.  

[peachmangosteen]

Speaking of Mark, I read an interview with the writers talking about how the Mark character was meant to be killed in the bar scene by Paul but they discovered that the actor was super good and the only one in the cast capable of doing the  male version of Tat-type clonage. I remain hopeful he can pull it off, they haven't let me down yet with this show.

How rude of them to say he was the only male in the cast capable of playing multiple characters! Huge burn on DB, JG, and KH there. Also, I don't think AM has shown any more ability than any of them (and much less ability than JG). He's as 'bad' as DB, IMO. (I don't think DB is a bad actor, for the record.) I'm anxious to see if he can pull it off though. I mean he basically played Mark, crazy cage guy, and the brief glimpse of the solider exactly the same so far. Although trying to live up Tatiana is such a hard task. I feel for him!

 

I'm disappointed there really isn't any more to Cal. I like him, he's cute, I like his chemistry with Sarah, Mrs. S, and Kira, but if there's a boring, 2D character on this show it's 100% him. He's about 10 times more boring than Paul for sure. Although, I think the hate Paul/DB, undeservedly IMO, gets is the driving force behind my Cal annoyance, so I admit I'm bias.

 

I was liking this season a lot, more so than even season 1 actually, until the ep before the Tony ep. That one and the Tony one were pretty bad, IMO. Then they picked up last week, but then the finale wasn't the best. I feel like we're in for a Lost style situation. But, like with Lost, I love the characters so much that I don't particularity even care about the plot. 

 

I really wish we didn't have to wait 9 damn months for season 3!

Edited June 22, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[beedub]

Now that's how you do a finale! This really is the bestest show.

Sorry to jump in without reading all posts yet, in case I repeat anyone's thoughts, but that was, for me, just the right balance of resolving some crises and initiating some others to set us on the path for next season. When the dance party broke out with 20 minutes to go, you knew it was just the calm before the storm, the delicious tease of having Cosima look just a little unsteady on her feet notwithstanding. I thought she might collapse mid-skank (to use the original sense of the word - there's your internet research for the day)!

Most satisfying was when Kira showed Cosima Professor Duncan's copy of Moreau. In spite of not going into the light (which I don't think was Kira's doing), that was the moment when it seemed she wasn't going to be dying after all, at least for now.

Marion, Paul, Mrs. S and Cal teaming up was cool. Best line of the episode came when Mrs. S beheld Cal and Paul together: "Look at the two of you. How does she do it?" A little CougarEnvy mixed with begrudging respect for Sarah!

Rachel with an eye patch? Definitely, but not like Nick Fury, more like The Governor from TWD.

And the Mark-as-Castor reveal was amazing, that was totally unexpected, but in hindsight all the clues were there and I should have seen it coming.

[hardy har]

One thing I really like about this show is even if the writers do something that gives me pause, I am still totally intrigued to see how I plays out. Like, there were a few things in the finale that I'm a little WTF about, but I can't wait to see where they go. Military boy clones, Paul playing Project LEDA, Helena being taken again, Is Mark self-aware?, was there a particular reason Delphine was sent to Frankfurt? Bring it, show!

I discovered the first season about 3 1/2 weeks before this season started and the week I had to wait for new episodes drove me nuts. This hiatus is going to drive me insane.

Edited June 22, 2014 by hardy har

[shapeshifter]

Rachel seemed dead to me except for the pencil not appearing to have penetrated to the brain. Based on an interview posted in the media thread...

TVLINE | Moving on to Rachel, did she survive that pencil to the eye? Was that lethal?

MANSON | That’s a pretty nasty-looking pencil. The pencil looks like it went pretty deep. I don’t know — she was twitching on the ground there. Regardless of what Rachel’s future is, we liked some startling, horrifying yet slightly absurd kind of ending to that character and the war between Rachel and Sarah. So that’s our version of a conclusion to that. If she continues on...

...it sounds like the show runners did that on purpose either because they haven't decided if she survives, or because they want to keep it secret. (I cut off the quote at the point where some might consider it to be spoilery.)

If she lives, a glass eye would allow her to do more impersonating of her sestras.

But I was picturing a more hi-tech silvery, sparkly eye that maybe allows her to read her sestras' minds or something.

Edited June 22, 2014 by shapeshifter

[bluebonnet]

I'm genuinely curious if there were two different versions of the finale released.  It's not unheard of.  The US audience receives a different version of Vikings than the international audience, for example.  There might be editing differences in different markets for Orphan Black.  The reason is that half of the recappers and reviewers remark on Rachel being definitely dead while the other half note that she was definitely still alive.  Likewise, the fandom seems fairly divided.  On my end, Rachel was definitely still alive when we left her.  Her hands were shaking, but it was more like shock shaking rather than throes of death shaking.  

[panthergirl13]

"Rachel sees a lot of things, but depth will no longer be one of them."

 

Pfffft!!!

[XtremeOne1]

I think Rachel should be dead. We can't have Sarah appear to but fail to kill another sister. 

 

I think this episode sort of represented this season as a whole. It was good and fast paced with lots of twists but there just needs to figure out how to balance mythology with the clones. Allison basically wasn't in this episode, and that's a pretty big deal considering this is a finale. The show needs to do a better job of making all three main clones feel like they're part of the same universe, which they didn't this season. The show is best when it's about the clones and not about the crazy mythology. I don't think any of us watch for that.

[Souris]

According to TPTB, Cosima is still sick. So Kira didn't heal her.

[beedub]

According to TPTB, Cosima is still sick. So Kira didn't heal her.

I agree, and besides, if Kira was able to / did pull that off, apart from being even too comic-booky for this show, it would take all the dramatic punch out of Cosima being given Duncan's copy of Dr. Moreau and all the secret science-fu it contains. That, along with having Helena's frozen eggs, is much more interesting to me, and too much effort went into setting all that up to just nullify it with some magic.

 

Also, Cosima and Scott: Dream Team!

[gibasi]

I have mixed emotions about this season as a whole and definitely the finale.  I feel like they are jerking us around with Cosima.  One minute she is so sick that she falls to the ground with a seizure.  Then she is dancing in the loft.  Or she is constructing get out of jail devices for Sarah.  We think she is dead when Kira is trying to wake her.  Then she wakes and feels well enough to read her a couple of books.

 

I agree that Cal is useless.  He was just a red herring thrown into the mix

 

There is so much going on that is unresolved and then we throw in all this other stuff.  I don't like that.  I don't want to find out about the male clones or the Topside cabal or any of that.  I would like to see the clones and their relationships with each other developed.  When Sarah was thrown into the mix in Season 1 you saw Allison and Cosima dealing with her in different ways.  There has been none of that.  I was fine with our core Clones, Art, Felix and Mrs. S and Kira.  I don't feel like they went anywhere from Season 1.  And to be told that Kira is 8?  I felt all along she was more like 6.

 

This season didn't have enough interaction between the clones.  It didn't have enough Art or Felix.

[Lee4U]

Boy, that dance scene must have been crazy to shoot with her playing all the roles.  Amazing.

 

I am still processing everything else….

[romantic idiot]

I have to say, I am not that fond of the dance scene. It was nice and all, and i'm sure technically very difficult. But I'm not watching the show for the special effects, really. Or to watch what else TM can do. I'm interested in the story they are telling. And insofar as the dance party didn't advance that, and some dialogue and bonding might have achieved the same goal of showing the brother sisters hanging out and bonding, I'd have preferred the latter. 

 

That is not to say it wasn't nice. I just feel it was superfluous in the larger scheme of things, and i'd even have preferred a Donnie/Allison scene, or a Helena/Cosima scene instead (to make clear why Helena decides to leave her sperm behind). 

[Amelie06]

 

I think that (within the show's mythology) there is no way that was coincidental. (I know that Mark was already a character when they decided he would be the male clone) but I think when we get a fuller story of the male clones we will see that the Proletheans knew who they were recruiting. Although I do think it's very possible that the male clones are also infertile by design, and that's why they did not use him for Helena's "babies"

I tend to agree with this. It would kind of be an insane coincidence if Mark just happened upon these Proletheans. But I keep thinking of that scene with Henrik, inexplicably reminding Mark of his own history. Henrik said something like "thank goodness you went AWOL from the military so you could join us." Mark looked conflicted about that and Henrik looked unaware. Based on that scene, I could see Mark possibly knowing he is a clone, but not Henrik. I also don't think Henrik would have been ok with a clone marrying his daughter. For the good of the show, I hope Mark doesn't know he is a clone. The way he was going after the clones and didn't seem to have any real moment of affinity with Helena is problematic if he knew he was a clone himself. I know he was cool for once in the bar scene where he let Helena enjoy herself, but that didn't seem like one clone doing a solid for another. That just established that he wasn't 100% behind Henrik's bs plans and felt a little pity for Helena. I also think that if Henrik knew that Mark was a clone he definitely would have made that guy give up a lot of "samples." There was no evidence that anything like that had been required.

 

I like this twist with Mark being a clone. I was also concerned that we were going to be treated to a room full of dull hotness in the form of Paul clones. Instead we got Mark. He isn't as pretty to look at, but there is something about the actor I really like. He is very intense. I'm crossing my fingers that he will be able to switch it up to play multiple characters. I agree that his clones are probably going to be similar because they have probably not been sent off into the world to develop. I imagine they have all been on some super secret base doing secret things. Secretly. Real talk? When Helena first showed up at Big Love Farm, I thought maybe Mark was to be her love interest. I wouldn't be against her hooking up with one of the Mark clones. Jesse isn't coming back. He is too busy pretending to be a lawyer. Helena still needs to get hers! I am excited about the possibilities with Helena being drafted into the military. You can't control Helena, you fools! You can only hope she wants to do the same thing you do. I give it until the middle of the season before she gets all the Marks fighting each other and their masters.

 

Dylan Bruce is a hot man, but he shouldn't wear camouflage...with a beret. It just isn't the right look for him. He needs to be a in fitted suit. Show, don't make this mistake again.

 

One lesson I've learned from watching tv over the last ten years is that you can't trust Michelle Forbes. She is a scary bitch and is two seconds off of messing your shit all up. I don't buy her "I just want to help" story at all. She is definitely working her own sketch agenda and soon enough she will show her true colors. (The actress is fantastic, and I'm sure she is a lovely person. I'm just saying that things get crazy fast on tv when she shows up.)

[crabbypants]

Poor Alison never got to meet her Ethan.

I interpreted Delphine's scene as Cosima dreaming.

Also, a nitpicky bit: how long has Helena been carrying around that tank? The nitrogen needs to be refilled periodically to maintain the temperature. If you're not maintaining the cells when they reach room temperature they tend to die. Not something I'd expect Helena to know but it would be nice to see Cosima be worried if she finds it.

[beeble]

Just in case there is a room full of Paul clones who were all passed over in favor of Mark clones, I have plenty of room in my home. Got that show people? I can store as many unused Paul clones as possible. 

[Geo]

Speaking of Mark, I read an interview with the writers talking about how the Mark character was meant to be killed in the bar scene by Paul but they discovered that the actor was super good and the only one in the cast capable of doing the  male version of Tat-type clonage.

 

 

Uh, I'm not sure what interview you read but everything i've seen so far never says anything like that.  They do say he was originally supposed to die but they realized he was a good actor and decided to keep him around.  I'm pretty sure they never said he was the only male capable of doing what Tat does.

 

Also, I think people are worrying over nothing.  I not even sure Mark will have to do the multiple characters like Tat does.  I suspect that the military has raised them to be soldiers and they will all be very much like....well....clones of each other.  This is all speculation of course, but I don't think the male clones will require anywhere near the level of differentiation that the female clones require. 

[OriginalCyn]

About the male clones....from two articles:

 

Hollywood Reporter Q&A with J&G:

 

 

Manson: For Mark, it’s interesting that that clone certainly seems to be naïve. He doesn’t know his true nature yet, so that’ll be interesting to see which of those characters do know their true nature.

 

Yahoo TV Blog Interview:

 

 

 

Is Ari Millen going to be a co-lead on the show now?
Manson: I wouldn't say that. Tatiana is such a wonderful actor and our nature/nurture side of the experiment — where clones are raised in different environments, so they can be radically different — is really the Project Leda side of the experiment. The Project Castor side of the experiment is military. That suggests to us that they're purpose-made. The military is not as interested in variation. We're not going to ask an actor who's a new clone to do what Tatiana does.

 

 

 

For a second, we thought it might be Felix, since he and Sarah were raised together by Mrs. S.
Fawcett: Ultimately, I think we thought that was too obvious a choice.

Manson: Also, we have other plans for Felix. There was a lot of fan speculation about that, and of course we talked about it, but in the end, I think our plans for Felix are more important than him being a clone.

 

 

 

Speaking of Felix, what are these other plans you have for him?
Fawcett: Felix is our clone BFF. We love to see how he reacts differently with each of the clones, and we like him as Sarah's rock. That role will continue. But Felix also has his own thing going on and I think in the next season, he may be a little more determined to continue to try to live his own life. He's got his own issues with Mrs. S and his own origins and his reasons to protect Kira. Jordan [Gavaris] is such an integral part of the show, so we're always looking for new things to do with Felix and new story arcs and possibly some new reveals.

[Sarah-phile]

If she lives, a glass eye would allow her to do more impersonating of her sestras.

But I was picturing a more hi-tech silvery, sparkly eye that maybe allows her to read her sestras' minds or something.

How about a white eye a la the neolutionists?  :)

 

I have mixed emotions about this season as a whole and definitely the finale.  I feel like they are jerking us around with Cosima.  One minute she is so sick that she falls to the ground with a seizure.  Then she is dancing in the loft.  Or she is constructing get out of jail devices for Sarah.  We think she is dead when Kira is trying to wake her.  Then she wakes and feels well enough to read her a couple of books.

 

I agree that Cal is useless.  He was just a red herring thrown into the mix

 

There is so much going on that is unresolved and then we throw in all this other stuff.  I don't like that.  I don't want to find out about the male clones or the Topside cabal or any of that.  I would like to see the clones and their relationships with each other developed.  When Sarah was thrown into the mix in Season 1 you saw Allison and Cosima dealing with her in different ways.  There has been none of that.  I was fine with our core Clones, Art, Felix and Mrs. S and Kira.  I don't feel like they went anywhere from Season 1.  And to be told that Kira is 8?  I felt all along she was more like 6.

 

This season didn't have enough interaction between the clones.  It didn't have enough Art or Felix.

I agree!  I thought it was pretty amazing that Cosima was dancing after almost collapsing at the lab, and I'm not a fan of Cal's.  I thought Kira looked awfully young too, but we discovered she was 8 a few episodes ago, and then someone mentioned the actress herself is 8.

 

I tend to agree with this. It would kind of be an insane coincidence if Mark just happened upon these Proletheans. But I keep thinking of that scene with Henrik, inexplicably reminding Mark of his own history. Henrik said something like "thank goodness you went AWOL from the military so you could join us." Mark looked conflicted about that and Henrik looked unaware. Based on that scene, I could see Mark possibly knowing he is a clone, but not Henrik. I also don't think Henrik would have been ok with a clone marrying his daughter. For the good of the show, I hope Mark doesn't know he is a clone. The way he was going after the clones and didn't seem to have any real moment of affinity with Helena is problematic if he knew he was a clone himself. I know he was cool for once in the bar scene where he let Helena enjoy herself, but that didn't seem like one clone doing a solid for another. That just established that he wasn't 100% behind Henrik's bs plans and felt a little pity for Helena. I also think that if Henrik knew that Mark was a clone he definitely would have made that guy give up a lot of "samples." There was no evidence that anything like that had been required.

 

Dylan Bruce is a hot man, but he shouldn't wear camouflage...with a beret. It just isn't the right look for him. He needs to be a in fitted suit. Show, don't make this mistake again.

Seems like if Mark knew he was a clone he wouldn't be so enthralled with Helena, as he was when she first showed up at the farm.  And certainly Gracie must not know, or she would think he was an abomination too.  What is she going to do when she finds out??

 

I like DB, but I agree he looks much better in a suit, whether birthday or otherwise.  

[sjohnson]

Re "plans" for Felix: There hasn't been anything about him as an individual since he gave up dating and art and recreational drugs. There isn't anything else except reflecting clone glory. He doesn't even need to pay bills. It is true that it is a provocative question how and why Mrs. S acquired another child to accompany Sarah in the underground life, but frankly I had assumed he was just an unwanted baby used as camouflage. DYAD would look for one girl (as it happened, Helena,) not a brother and sister. I'd hoped snatching Felix was one of Mrs. S.' secrets she was harboring so determinedly, rather than some secret identity as superspy.

[beedub]

I suspect that the military has raised them to be soldiers and they will all be very much like....well....clones of each other.  This is all speculation of course, but I don't think the male clones will require anywhere near the level of differentiation that the female clones require. 

That shot of the Mark clone in uniform gave me a sudden flash of the Clone Troopers from Star Wars: purpose-built, little difference from one to the other, and perfectly comfortable with that fact.

[Lokiberry]

The idea that they would only try to replicate the very same clones doesn't make sense to me. If for no particular reason you want to clone people, clone somebody else. This only makes sense if the clones are not just clones (a major step in tech for when it was supposed to have been done,) but if they had some unique properties, i.e., were engineered. Which is sort of like someone inventing the atomic bomb during the Civil War, jarring anachronism. The dramatic problem is that we don't know, after two seasons, what this is all about. Beyond a certain point, for me it's like not being about anything but mindless thrills. 

 

Cosima should be dead. Chickening out is bad drama in my opinion. Having Kira heal her would be the kind of thing that gives SF a bad name, especially since it reeks of the supernatural, a huge style faux pas. 

 

I found Duncan's vicious verbal assault on someone he supposedly loved contemptible. But then, I've always seen Rachel as the most victimized of the clones. She was only the antagonist to Sarah Manning insofar as Sarah was the one who did the victimizing her entire life. Duncan's ability to hide poison and the codes was intolerably unbelievable for me. Really damaged my ability to take this at all seriously, on any level. 

 

The obligatory anti-abortion stance was jarring. 

 

A pencil in the eye does not make you fall down. The pencil entered the brain. I know the show wants to play around with feminine agency and so on, but honestly I can't help but feel the scene was pandering to a crass "Kill the bitch!" mentality.

Rachel was the antagonist insofar as she kidnapped a child, and forced the mother of said child to sign a document (while in handcuffs) allowing her eggs to be "harvested" before she would let her see the child. Then, she had the mother dragged into an operating room to have an ovary taken out, over the mother's clear protest. Then, she destroyed a life-saving medical treatment, thereby, as far as she knew, condemning another woman to death. And then there's the part where she had both Sarah and Duncan held against their will, which is also kidnapping. Most, if not all, of the above is illegal. Oh yes, I believe Rachel was also behind Paul threatening to have Felix framed for murder.

 

As for the show having a "kill the bitch" mentality: they've also killed BigLoveCultSpermDaddy and Leekie, so I'm not seeing any "smack the wimmin down when they get uppity" mentality. Orphan Black's main story is a group of women trying to hold onto their agency as human beings against forces that view them as either property or a science experiment.

[CPP83]

One of the reasons I'm glad they didn't make Felix a clone, despite it being the obvious and almost too "perfect" choice, is because I like him being an original. Not that the clones are carbon copies, beyond their DNA sequences, but with Sarah and her sisters, and Mrs. S. in the mix as well, Paul, I like that Felix is "normal" I guess you could say.

 

He isn't connected to the projects or the secrets beyond his family, he's somewhat removed and I think it enhances him. It makes Felix more of a standout, like Art is as well, and I do hope both characters will get bigger and better roles to play in season 3, because I think they help to balance out the show. if anything Felix's love life needs more attention, the poor kid needs to have his own rock to lean on.

[Cyranetta]

 

Also, I think people are worrying over nothing.  I not even sure Mark will have to do the multiple characters like Tat does.  I suspect that the military has raised them to be soldiers and they will all be very much like....well....clones of each other.  This is all speculation of course, but I don't think the male clones will require anywhere near the level of differentiation that the female clones require.

 

The minute Marian said the military was in charge of the male clone program I associated them with uniformity, because the military would need predictability to make for useful weapons. Every one of the Sarah-clones of which we've become so fond have an element of randomness and a tendency to buck authority, with probably the epitome of that tendency being Helena, so for her to have been the one plucked by the military for whatever purpose may or may not be deliberate, but it will be fascinating!

 

I wonder if that introuction of Tony in the previous ep was a way of planting the idea of male clones.

[Sarah-phile]

The minute Marian said the military was in charge of the male clone program I associated them with uniformity, because the military would need predictability to make for useful weapons. Every one of the Sarah-clones of which we've become so fond have an element of randomness and a tendency to buck authority, with probably the epitome of that tendency being Helena, so for her to have been the one plucked by the military for whatever purpose may or may not be deliberate, but it will be fascinating!

I don't see the military as having a lot of tolerance for Helena's volatility.  I know she's survived a lot so far, but I'm a little scared for her in season 3.

[shapeshifter]

I bet any military organization would love to bottle Helena's badassery. LOL

But I don't think you can clone her mad skillz. ;)

[Lokiberry]

I don't see the military as having a lot of tolerance for Helena's volatility.  I know she's survived a lot so far, but I'm a little scared for her in season 3.

I'm scared for the military. They won't know what hit them.

 

Seriously though, they didn't kill Cosima even though they've been building towards that possibility all season; so I don't see them getting rid of Helena and all her glorious wildcard potential.

[CofCinci]

Well, I guess my whole "Felix-is-the-male-clone" theory is blown out of the water....

He could still be a special in some way. Why else would he have been sneaked out/rescued?

[molshoop]

This show has so many wonderful characters who don't get enough screen time and a maze full of plot lines to untangle.

I think adding male clones and a military storyline is a dumb and unappealing idea.

[ganesh]

He isn't connected to the projects or the secrets beyond his family, he's somewhat removed and I think it enhances him. It makes Felix more of a standout, like Art is as well, and I do hope both characters will get bigger and better roles to play in season 3, because I think they help to balance out the show.

 

I think a lesser show would have had the Felix clone. Felix is 'regular' but close to the clones, and Art is just a cop. It's our way into the show and it also grounds the show. It was probably a deliberate choice in this way to have Felix and Art interact so much. 

 

I wonder if Mark knows that he is a clone and he is actually pulling a long con on Gracie for the baby.

 

My instincts say no. Usually the show will try to tip off the audience ahead of time.

 

I want Cosima to be healed, but I'm hoping that between Helena's embryos and Duncan's book, Cosima can figure out a cure for herself that way.

 

This seems likely given how the show shot the canister and then nearly directly she discovered the coded book. 

 

I find it odd that the military wouldn't want women, however. Unless the clones were being designed strictly as infantry. 

 

When they introduced little Charlotte clone, I thought for a minute that Michelle Forbes was the older clone. Which doesn't make sense because Sarah et al., are all adults are are always going to look like they do now, but there was a shot of all the three of them that looked like future, present, past to me. It was weird. 

 

If TPTB didn't kill off Helena, then they weren't going to kill off Cosima. Typically, it's been a tv-thing to kill someone major off to show that a show is "real" and there are "stakes." Game of Thrones notwithstanding. I don't think a show actually has to have a a major death to be dramatic. Usually, it's jarring and mostly OOC because the character just does something rash that gets them killed. The show isn't bleak; it's more adventurous, and about identity. So I don't think a ton of character deaths works. One can't find out who they really are if they're dead. 

 

Duncan made sense; the guy was pretty defeatist since he left the house. Rachel I can go either way. She was slow-burn nuts going into the back end of the season and I don't see where she would go from this. 

[bluebonnet]

I think the military storyline makes a great addition to the plot only because we've known since season 1 that the military played a part in the making of the clones.  It would have been sort of ridiculous if nothing came out of the military plot that had been built for so long.  

[marceline]

According to TPTB, Cosima is still sick. So Kira didn't heal her.

 

Good. To me, that would be the show crossing the line from science fiction to fantasy. A line that it has done a very good job of toeing thus far.

[panthergirl13]

BBCAmerica put up an awesome extended clone dance party video, with bits of the effects.

 

I didn't notice on the initial airing (or maybe it wasn't shown), but I adored Alison's askance look at Helena's dancing.

OK, my favorite part would have to be the UNICORN in the background. :)

[CatMack]

I have to say, I am not that fond of the dance scene. It was nice and all, and i'm sure technically very difficult. But I'm not watching the show for the special effects, really. Or to watch what else TM can do. I'm interested in the story they are telling. And insofar as the dance party didn't advance that, and some dialogue and bonding might have achieved the same goal of showing the brother sisters hanging out and bonding, I'd have preferred the latter.

 

I just thought it went on too long.  It was a nice moment, but it halted the momentum of the episode.  It should have been about half as long IMO. 

[Mabinogia]

Wow, that was awesome. The editing on this show is phenomenal. Sure, they had that sort of green screen halo on them, but bloody hell, it was what, five different layers of the same scene woven together. I love that clip for showing the different layers because, while I understood that Tatiana was basically dancing with herself, that really showed how amazing a feat that is. Dayum girl! Where the hell is your Emmy?

 

That Kira/Delphine NDE Cosima scene was...weird. I still can't quite wrap my head around what we were meant to make of it. Taking it at face value I see Cosima dying/white light scenario. She sees the woman she loves who will never leave her blah blah, that's more near death stuff. Then Kira heals her, not cures, but heals, as in, she gets her better enough to live for now. The other option is what? Cosima was sleeping and having a dream about Delphine and Kira happened to wake her up when the dream was getting all white lighty? That's even lamer than Kira having some kind of healing power, which is actually canon, at least as far as she can heal herself rapidly.

 

But why would Kira have these "powers"? That's what I don't get. Because her mom is a clone really doesn't explain it. If, however, the clones aren't just clones of a normal living girl but where genetically engineered before cloning, then maybe...and damn wouldn't the military want THAT tech? I mean, super soldiers who can instantly heal themselves, that's like some  General's wet dream right there.

 

I found the dance scene really tense because I kept waiting for Cosima to collapse. I'm glad it didn't happen and love that they wove that tension, at least for me, into such a joyous moment. It was a weird feeling of "this is great...but no! Cosima is going to die....oh, they're so happy....this isn't going to end well". Because of that, it didn't seem too long for me, while also seeming to never end (because I was so nervous about how it was going to end).

Edited June 22, 2014 by Mabinogia

[Wilowy]

Not sure why people are thinking Cosi couldn't be groovin' after her seizure. I mean, it isn't like she was bangin' the full-on Helena or anything. Her moves were almost Tai-Chi! Slow, calm, fluid. I've no reason to think she couldn't do that for a few minutes, sick or not. Plus, it made her feel good. 

[Blackie]

I hope the male military clones are all just army drones purpose built for fighting, maybe Mark can be the only one that has a personality.  If the try to make a bunch of male "brofers" like the "seestras", I think that is when the show will have jumped the shark.

 

 

 

My take on the mini-clone is she is Sarah's aborted child

 

 

 

I also thought for a second that maybe Charlotte was Sarah's aborted baby.  If Kira has weird healing powers then maybe a child of Sarah's could survive abortion and live.  As far as the age difference maybe they could frozen the baby and brought her back to life later or something sciency like that.  But then I relialized that Charlotte looks exactly like young Rachel and not Kira, therefore clone not offspring.  Unless Sarah's pregnancy was actually her eggs cloning themselves in utero.  I have read some theories of this happening in RL.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Blackie

[mascan42]

I thought for sure that Paul was going to be the male clone, because - let's face it - he doesn't really have anything to do on the show anymore otherwise.

 

Also, now that they've done the obvious second set of clones reveal, the next big thing would have to be finding the original DNA donors for both.

Edited June 22, 2014 by mascan42