S02.E10: By Means Which Have Never Yet Been Tried

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My take on the mini-clone is she is Sarah's aborted child. I know Marion said there were 400 clones and mini-Tat was the only one who survived. It made my mind think that since Sarah said she had an abortion when she was 14 and mini-her is 8 years old (not sure if they ever said exactly how old Sarah is but I can see her being 22 years old), and since Mrs S is the Keeper of Secrets and knew Marion, ugh this is hard to put into words, maybe somehow Sarah had a botched abortion and the child's leg was disfigured during the procedure.

Sarah et al were born in 1984 so they are 29-30 right now. Sarah said she first had sex when she 14 or 15. She also said that she has had an abortion but she didn't specify when. It could have been any time in the last 15 years since she began having sex. Kira is 8 so Sarah was about 20-21 when she got pregnant and 21-22 when Kira was born.

Since Charlotte and Kira are the same age, I am ruling out the abortion being 8-9 years ago because it makes no sense that she would abort one pregnancy, immediately get pregnant again, and keep the second baby.

I would guess her abortion was at least one year before or after Kira but possibly more. I could see it being when she was really young (14-18) and not wanting to have a child yet. In that case, she probably would have needed parental consent for an abortion (depending on where they were living at the time) which means Mrs. S knew and if she's shady as shit, she could have told someone (like Marion) so they could collect the tissue. I don't see any other way that Dyad could have known at that point since it seemed that Sarah was not on Leekie/Dyad's radar until Delphine told them about her in S1.

I could also see the possibility of Sarah getting pregnant shortly after Kira was born and thinking she couldn't handle having two kids and deciding to have an abortion but since Kira and Charlotte are so close in age, that would require Sarah to have been pregnant again right after Kira was born.

If Marion had been able to get Sarah's aborted fetus, is there a time limit on how long the cells would be viable for cloning and implanting?

[Bort]

My take on the mini-clone is she is Sarah's aborted child

That's too All My Children for me. It was a ridiculous storyline then and it would be a ridiculous storyline now. I think Charlotte is exactly what they said: a later attempt (with what we already know is incomplete data from the loss in the fire) that only she survived out of 400 tries.

And Sarah's apparent guilt over having an abortion was her now knowing how rare it was that she was able to get pregnant, since all the other clones (save for Helena) are barren. I do wonder why Sarah went through with her pregnancy with Kira, since it was seemingly just as unplanned as the first one.

[shapeshifter]

That Kira/Delphine NDE Cosima scene was...weird. I still can't quite wrap my head around what we were meant to make of it. Taking it at face value I see Cosima dying/white light scenario. She sees the woman she loves who will never leave her blah blah, that's more near death stuff. Then Kira heals her, not cures, but heals, as in, she gets her better enough to live for now.

That's pretty much how I saw it too--and that it implied Delphine was dead, right? They made a point about the doctors being surprised that Kira didn't have more injuries after the car accident, but then they showed her with unhealed scrapes on her face in the next episode, and then they dropped it. Now she seemed (to me and you and others) to bring Cosima back from the brink of death with a touch to her face.

Shark, I see you getting ready to jump! Get off of my show!

[Sarah-phile]

That's too All My Children for me. It was a ridiculous storyline then and it would be a ridiculous storyline now. I think Charlotte is exactly what they said: a later attempt (with what we already know is incomplete data from the loss in the fire) that only she survived out of 400 tries.

And Sarah's apparent guilt over having an abortion was her now knowing how rare it was that she was able to get pregnant, since all the other clones (save for Helena) are barren. I do wonder why Sarah went through with her pregnancy with Kira, since it was seemingly just as unplanned as the first one.

Isn't Charlotte the same actress as the girl who played the young Rachel?  I thought it was, and that when Marian told Sarah Charlotte should look familiar (or something like that) it was because Charlotte looked exactly as Sarah did as a young girl.  (Btw, that girl is seriously adorable!)  If she were Sarah's aborted child, she wouldn't look like a child Sarah/Rachel.

 

I also assumed Sarah felt awkward/uncomfortable because (1) the questions were very intrusive; (2) she was a prisoner (not tied down, as I had thought); and (3) she felt guilt or ambivalence or what have you about the abortion.  Not speaking from experience, but that seems pretty believable to me.  

Edited June 23, 2014 by Sarah-phile

[Chaos Theory]

My take on the mini-clone is she is Sarah's aborted child.

 

 

I am really hoping that's not it.  I think that somewhere, somehow they got a hold of Sarah's egg some other way or that She is just what she appears to be.  A younger version of the rest of the clones.  The only viable clone that was successful after the initial batch.  Having another child takes alot of the weight of Kira but making the show too much of soap opera is a mistake.

[bluebonnet]

Why would Sarah (or Helena) have anything to do with Charlotte or the batch of 400 failed clone attempts?  They weren't on anyone's radar while there were at least a dozen clones being monitored by DYAD who could provide genetic material anytime they wanted it.  

[Captanne]

The same actress who played young Rachel also plays Charlotte.  I checked IMDb this morning because I mistakenly thought Kira and Charlotte looked alike.  I was wrong.  To be clear:  The same actress plays little Rachel and Charlotte.

 

ETA:  I agree with folks who felt the abortion question was handled well.  Sarah was under pressure, asked an intrusive question and probably wouldn't be expected to say, "Yep!  I had an abortion!  Boy, that was one of the best days of my life!  Whee!"  I mean, really, anyone who goes through an abortion or any painful medical procedure probably isn't going to leap for joy at the memory, right?  Seriously.  

Edited June 23, 2014 by Captanne

[Jack Shaftoe]

I think about half of my desire to watch season 3 died when Alison and Cosima literally welcomed Helena with open arms. Nobody so much as mentioned her being, you know, a serial killer or discussed if it was a good idea to invite her. The hell? Of course, given that Sarah was "hiding" after her escape at the very first place the Dyad goons would come looking for her, I guess everyone was overdosed with stupid pilsl or something.

 

I loved that Cosima was finally proactive (and that she is still alive, of course. But I am so tired of the endless silly conspiracies and the inability of all the supposedly ruthless and powerful conspirators to do just about anything. Can't crack Duncan's code, can't find Sarah, can't keep Sarah once she gives herself up, everyone and their dog is leaking information about them, allow Scott to invite his geek buddies to their super secret lab for some fun and games, and so on. And we still have no clue why they need clones so much. In season one it seemed genetic technology in that world was more advanced than in ours, with Olivier's tail and all , and of course, with clones being created 30 years ago. You would think Dyad would have a little more to show for its efforts than an 8 year old girl. I love Scott but it's hilarious how he seems more competent than everybody in that world famous institute despite being hired like five minutes ago. 

 

I want to see Alison and Cosima's parents, instead of these endless conspiracies. They are important for the nurture vs nature argument, plus they can't be as bland as the conspiracy or the religious fanatics stuff. And I miss Leekie. With him in charge, Dyad at least sometimes seemed like an organization with half a clue.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Jack Shaftoe

[kieyra]

Overall, the finale was in keeping with the rest of the season: more concerned with individual moments than stringing those moments together into a cohesive story. This combined with too much audience pandering has burned a lot of my good will towards the show.

I just picture the writers' room saying stuff like "You know what would be cool? Helena running away from a creepy religious compound...all bloody...in a wedding dress!!"...and then trying to work backwards from there instead of plotting out a realistic season arc for her (since they insisted on her unearned redemption). Ditto so many other "moments" this season.

There were some inspired choices, such as Vic + Alison in rehab, but unlike season 1, they were few and far between.

Also, they've done a pretty crap job with their antagonists this season. I still don't know what we were really supposed to think of Rachel, and they failed to move the bad-guy pieces fluidly w/r/t Leekie, Rachel and Adm. Cain.

Edited June 23, 2014 by kieyra

[hardy har]

It's hilarious to me the number of people I've seen who hate Paul because they find him boring and then in the next breath praise Cal for being so wonderful.  Cal is literally the most 2D character on this show.  His entire presence in season 2 could have been completely removed with very few changes (pretty much find somewhere else to stash Kira for a few eps and find another way to connect Marion to Mrs S, neither of which would be that hard).  I just don't care, and I end up resenting pretty much every second spent on his and Sarah's relationship because it's so forced and contrived and it takes time away from far more interesting relationships.  You know what I would have much rather seen over Cal and Sarah making out in a dirty hallway?  Sarah and Cosima and Alison having a discussion about meeting Helena, since the last time we saw Alison or Cosima really talk about Helena at all she was still a very dangerous presence in their lives.  I'm completely OK with them welcoming her, especially Cosima, as I think they'd be capable of understanding the way Helena was manipulated into doing what she did, and that she's helped Sarah since and seems to have turned over a new leaf.  But a scene actually acknowledging that Alison and Cosima should have logically had some concerns and reservations would have been a lot more important to me than seeing Sarah suck face with a character who's more plot device than person.

FWIW, it's purely the actors for me. I fully agree that Cal is a boring character and I think Paul is a million times more interesting on paper, yet I still prefer Cal. Stoic characters are usually my jam, but DB just isn't working for me. It's not even that I think he's a bad actor. He's fine. It's just that I think everyone else on the show laps him in terms of acting skills. That being said.....I did/do like DB much more when Paul is being an asshole like the nailgun scene in S1 and the first few eps of this season. I have no idea why, but every time Vic was on my screen I found my self wondering if I'd care about Paul more if Michael Mando played him.

 

I tend to agree with this. It would kind of be an insane coincidence if Mark just happened upon these Proletheans. But I keep thinking of that scene with Henrik, inexplicably reminding Mark of his own history. Henrik said something like "thank goodness you went AWOL from the military so you could join us." Mark looked conflicted about that and Henrik looked unaware. Based on that scene, I could see Mark possibly knowing he is a clone, but not Henrik. I also don't think Henrik would have been ok with a clone marrying his daughter. For the good of the show, I hope Mark doesn't know he is a clone.

 

Ok, if DYAD knew about the prolethians, then the military must have known about them too. My guess is that Mark doesn't know he's a clone, but that he was sent on a mission to spy on the prolethians to see what they were up too. So, he sets off for Big Love Ranch and tells Henrick he's AWOL, that he needs help and wants to join their flock and all that bullshit.

 

 

One lesson I've learned from watching tv over the last ten years is that you can't trust Michelle Forbes. She is a scary bitch and is two seconds off of messing your shit all up. I don't buy her "I just want to help" story at all. She is definitely working her own sketch agenda and soon enough she will show her true colors. (The actress is fantastic, and I'm sure she is a lovely person. I'm just saying that things get crazy fast on tv when she shows up.)

 

Ha and so much word to the bolded part. MIchelle Forbes is so great, but I don't trust Marion at all. The nicer and more helpful she got the more I didn't trust her and Sarah better watch her ass. Plus, there was the whole male clone reveal scene. Now, granted he looked unhinged, but the woman is keeping a man in a goddamn cage. Sure, it's nicer that the one Tomas put Helena in, but still.

 

Why would Sarah (or Helena) have anything to do with Charlotte or the batch of 400 failed clone attempts?  They weren't on anyone's radar while there were at least a dozen clones being monitored by DYAD who could provide genetic material anytime they wanted it.  

My guess is that they weren't initially going to play any part in the failed cloning attempts because, like you said, no one knew about them. However, when they found out Sarah was out there, able to conceive and had a twin (who might also be able to conceive) I could see why DYAD/LEDA/Topside would want to study them. Their biology could hold the key to successful clone attempts because they don't have Duncan's synthetic sequences.

 

Speaking of Duncan's sequences . . . . Cosima? Don't you dare let Marion know about that shit! Find Scott, get Delphine back from Germany, gather the rest of clone club and you weirdos need to figure out a way to cure you with out some big fancy corporation's or the military's help. 

Edited June 23, 2014 by hardy har

[bluebonnet]

 

My guess is that they weren't initially going to play any part in the failed cloning attempts because, like you said, no one knew about them. However, when they found out Sarah was out there, able to conceive and had a twin (who might also be able to conceive) I could see why DYAD/LEDA/Topside would want to study them. Their biology could hold the key to successful clone attempts because they don't have Duncan's synthetic sequences.

 

I agree that NOW Sarah or Helena would be useful to the cloning business.  But not when they were attempting to make the new batch of clones of which Charlotte was the only survivor.  Sarah and Helena weren't monitored by DYAD at the time of Charlotte's creation so there's no reason for speculating on Charlotte sprouting from Sarah fluid when the DYAD did have at least nearly a dozen other clones from which to draw genetic material in order to create more clones.  

[rozen]

The whole Marian thing also felt completely implausible.  Kira's room was obviously being recorded but somehow Marian felt perfectly at ease entering it and telling Sarah to take Kira and also meet her the next day?  I guess the fact that she's apparently a hacker was supposed to make us believe that she rigged the recording so that she wasn't seen?  It doesn't explain how she did this all unseen by all those at DYAD who would have been guarding Kira's room.

 

 

Marian is hide enough on the foodchain for Leeke to shit his pants when she gave to go ahead for his elimination. So I'm pretty sure she has the ability to tell DYAD grunts to beat it and turn off the cameras before they left. Marian seems to have primarily shafted/overruled Rachel in letting Kira go, there seems to be no higher directive that she needed to be acquired. That was just Rachel having a tantrum. Am I the only one that thought that Rachel was totally going to have Sarah's ovary implanted so she could make babies?

 

I hope big glaring 'WARNING' signs were going off in Sarah's head when she saw the glass box complete with scarred/infected clone. That's kind of creepy to have hanging out one floor below your daughter. When I saw the newest TM clone I squealed a little because I thought it meant that Rachel's childhood videos were all staged. Especially when she said she couldn't remember any of it while Daddy Duncan killed himself.

 

I thought Duncan was a future bad guy when he said last episode that Kira was still the prize. So he was actually just assessing how far his kid had fallen before handing over his brainpower. Dang, man, you were both awesome and stone cold. Much respect.  "You don't deserve me anymore." That's harsh coming from a boyfriend, coming from your own father? Rachel is going to be seriously messed up if she survives that pencil. I hope she sliced her feet up stomping on Kira's bone marrow samples, that malevolent oaf.

 

Acting aside, Felix and Paul would have made terrible male clones just because their physiques are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. I guess you could swing that Castor clones would have Paul's perfectly-formed, godlike, physiques, but that doesn't give you a lot of flexibility in differentiating clones based on clothes, etc. And I could never buy Felix as a military badass with those ridiculously gorgeous pouty lips. Mark has a more reasonable build to work with.

 

I bet Project Castor bought Cal's drone technology and he has been hunting them ever since. He probably let Sarah pull one over on him because he'd seen images of one of the clones in another context during his search, and didn't want to lose his lead. Getting a kid out of the deal is just a bonus, probably. 

 

Helena is the only clone with no attachments, no one who would miss her. Of course Mrs. S would choose her to screw over in her deal with Paul. I hope she busts out and finds Jesse, never to be seen again. None of the other clones will truly look out for her. I firmly believe everyone is insane for being as lax around her as they are...but her sly grin when Felix chidingly asked "did you burn down those fish people's farm?" slayed me. Such an adorable serial killer.

Edited June 23, 2014 by rozen

[hardy har]

I agree that NOW Sarah or Helena would be useful to the cloning business.  But not when they were attempting to make the new batch of clones of which Charlotte was the only survivor.  Sarah and Helena weren't monitored by DYAD at the time of Charlotte's creation so there's no reason for speculating on Charlotte sprouting from Sarah fluid when the DYAD did have at least nearly a dozen other clones from which to draw genetic material in order to create more clones.  

Ahhhh, ok. I misread your earlier post and I'm with you all the way. The spec about Charlotte coming from Sarah (or any of the clones) makes no sense to me.

Edited June 23, 2014 by hardy har

[Artsda]

That was a great finale. I loved the dance party scene, so cute and awesome.

 

I do think Kira was healing Cosima in the scene where she seemed dead.

[Captanne]

I have to laugh about the distrust of any character Michelle Forbes plays -- I agree.  LOL  Even in "In Treatment" and "The Killing" when she was supposed to be playing sympathetic characters -- they were insufferable.  She played the miserable wife of a psychiatrist and an absolutely inconsolable mother of a murdered young girl, respectively.

 

Poor Forbes -- even when she plays widely different characters she still manages to type cast herself.

 

ETA:  rozen

 

I firmly believe everyone is insane for being as lax around her as they are...but her sly grin when Felix chidingly asked "did you burn down those fish people's farm?" slayed me. Such an adorable serial killer.

Helena is my favorite assassin serial killer ever ever ever.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Captanne

[Wilson Cat]

Good finale, I've just one major nit to pick.  The 'take away' scene with Helena and the aircraft thingy, it seriously looked like a grade school version of ET mixed with Star Wars and Star Trek.  If TPTB on this show can pull off the dance scene, along with too many other excellent clone-y shit throughout the season to mention, could they not have made that particular scene an iota believable?  I was watching this finale on my computer (as I've mentioned I am stranded on a lovely tropical island, one without BBC but WITH a nice wireless connection) with my youngest daughter.  When that star-trek-y scene came on she said 'WTF is THAT?  Is this supposed to be believable?  Did they just throw this in in the last minute and had no time to stage it to look even semi-realistic?'  Just our take.  As for Charlotte.....I get that she is a 'later' clone.  But why is her hair exactly like Rachel's was as a child.  Yes, they are clones.  But all the clones we've seen so far are individuals, with their own styles, especially when it comes to hair.  Is it significant that Charlotte as a child is basically Rachel as a child?  I mean, really.  My daughter's identical twin friends always looked different enough that we never had trouble telling which was twin A and which was twin B.  

 

Helena is my favorite assassin serial killer ever ever ever.

 

I'm with you Captanne.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Wilson Cat

[Amethyst]

But nope, he's just the most perfect plot device ever.  He takes 5 seconds to be mad at Sarah and question her story about Kira's paternity, and that's it.  After that 5 minutes he's totally over it, falling into bed with her, playing house, being totally OK with her presence destroying his life (again) to the point where he doesn't even care that she won't tell him anything.

 

It's hilarious to me the number of people I've seen who hate Paul because they find him boring and then in the next breath praise Cal for being so wonderful.  Cal is literally the most 2D character on this show.

 

This.  The whole relationship with Cal is convenient, and he's too perfect to be convincing. 

[Agent Dark]

Poor Forbes -- even when she plays widely different characters she still manages to type cast herself.

Haha even in her voice acting she does that.  She voiced a scientist character in Half Life 2 who was somewhat condescending towards the player character.  Though her voice acting in DC Universe Online was amazing - she voiced Circe, a Wonder Woman Villain who was on the main 'bad guy' characters.  Hearing her shout "I AM CIRCEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" in this amazingly over-the-top dramatic voice is hilarious. 

 

Good finale, I've just one major nit to pick.  The 'take away' scene with Helena and the aircraft thingy, it seriously looked like a grade school version of ET mixed with Star Wars and Star Trek.  If TPTB on this show can pull off the dance scene, along with too many other excellent clone-y shit throughout the season to mention, could they not have made that particular scene an iota believable?  I was watching this finale on my computer (as I've mentioned I am stranded on a lovely tropical island, one without BBC but WITH a nice wireless connection) with my youngest daughter.  When that star-trek-y scene came on she said 'WTF is THAT?  Is this supposed to be believable?  Did they just throw this in in the last minute and had no time to stage it to look even semi-realistic?'  Just our take.

It was poor compositing of a CGI background to actors in front of a Green Screen.  Lots of TV shows seem to have this problem, probably due to limited budgets and limited production times.  Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. for example has a huge problem with doing the same thing, and it's on a major network with a significantly higher budget (I would imagine).  Lighting is the main issue - the human eye is pretty good at picking up contrast, so as soon as your CGI lighting is out of whack with the set lighting it looks really fake.

[s-k-s]

For a show that otherwise seems to have a very feminist outlook on things, it seems a little weird to throw army=boy clones out there.  Maybe that's just me?

 

All in all, I think the season had a lot of ups and downs.  I hope the writers stop trying to throw out things to please the fans (transclone comes to mind) and work on putting together a tightly constructed story arc that makes logical sense.  That uses all of the clones well (ahem, Alison).  And, for the love of all things holy, please have the majority of the episodes involve something other than Helena and/or Kira (or any of the new children being introduced) being kidnapped.

[kieyra]

Wait wait, Michelle Forbes' character name is Marion? Wasn't her True Blood name MaryAnn? As in MaryAnn the evil maenad?

Yeah, be afraid.

Edited June 23, 2014 by kieyra

[ganesh]

 

Now, granted he looked unhinged, but the woman is keeping a man in a goddamn cage.

Where else are you going to keep your houseboy? He can't be having the run of the place!

 

There's no way I buy MF's "I just want to help!" She's Michelle Forbes!

[Sarah-phile]

This. The whole relationship with Cal is convenient, and he's too perfect to be convincing.

Agreed. When Cal told Sarah he would be sticking around for a while I couldn't help thinking, "please don't." I have nothing against the actor but the character does nothing for me.

[Proclone]

We still don't have the answer to a ton of questions, and I for one am getting bored as more and more mysteries pile on top of one another without any answers ever being provided (and "Topside is a cabal" doesn't count as an answer, sorry). Unless I've forgotten, we never learned how Alison and Cosima found each other, Paul's role remains completely opaque, and Siobhan's involvement with Dyad and Topside and the military and Lord knew who and what else and how they relate to her acquisition of Sarah has never been explained nor, astonishingly, has Sarah ever seen fit to ask her! And let's not forget that we know nothing of how the Proletheans ever learned about the clones or got hold of Helena. Or how Alison and Cosima were adopted. And instead of enlightening us a bit, the show just piles on more bafflement: Why is mini-Tatiana crippled? Who took Helena and why were Paul and Marion involved? Why is Marion harboring a male clone? What are Art and Angie doing these days?

 

I'm completely convinced that there was no master plan beyond the first season, and now plot points are just being made up as the show goes along. But that could still work, provided the audience isn't dragged along incessantly into a deeper and deeper murk. I'm confused, and I can only imagine how confused I'll be when the show returns at a time when I'll have forgotten half of what's happened so far. That is, if I decide it's worth watching.

I believe it was stated in the first season that the German contacted Beth when Helena started killing the European clones and that Beth then used her police resources to find Allison and Cosima.  And neither Cosima or Allison (or Beth for that matter) were adopted.  Their mother's used IVF.  I do wonder if they thought they were using donor eggs and therefore knew their daughters weren't related to them genetically or if they thought their own fertilized eggs were being implanted. Since Tony's mother apparently said she thought there had been a mistake at the IVF clinic I'm guessing the latter. 

 

It seems that Paul has always been a double agent working for the military to spy on Dyad.  I do wonder why it was suddenly OK with them for him to give it up though. 

 

And for as for why the little girl is crippled, I assumed since the original genetic material was lost in the fire, to use a crude analogy, that just like with a copy machine she is pretty much a copy of a copy and therefore not quite as sharp as the original.

[Black Knight]

Not sure why people are thinking Cosi couldn't be groovin' after her seizure. I mean, it isn't like she was bangin' the full-on Helena or anything. Her moves were almost Tai-Chi! Slow, calm, fluid. I've no reason to think she couldn't do that for a few minutes, sick or not. Plus, it made her feel good.

What made me nervous about it was that I was wondering if this was supposed to be the "sudden burst of energy before death" that dying people sometimes experience. It happened with my terminally ill grandmother - she spent many weeks doing nothing but lying in bed or on the couch, and then one night she was suddenly very active and happy. She died in her sleep a few hours later. It was hard for Cosima to even stand up to welcome Helena to the Clone Club, Felix had to help her get up, she was leaning heavily on her cane, and even Helena commented that Cosima shouldn't be up, and then suddenly Cos is dancing. I was like, "Shit, this is her last hurrah." So glad to have been wrong!

 

I hope Rachel survived, because to see her with an eyepatch would be fantastic, and she'll be guaranteed to be crazier than ever (and with Helena borderline-sane nowadays, they need a crazy clone). But, as much as Rachel messing with Cosima infuriated me, I actually thought Duncan was a really big asshole. It never sat well with me that he stayed away all those years, leaving Rachel with DYAD, without trying to contact her - complete contrast to Sarah - and now he's been reunited with her for all of five minutes and basically declares her unredeemable. I know she's crazy and did a lot of bad things, but he was supposed to be her father. I feel like parents are supposed to be a little more persistent in trying to help their kids before writing them off. He just checked out on her far too fast for my taste. When he basically whined about her remembering how much he and his wife loved her and she cried that she didn't remember? That was heartbreaking, her admission, but it's like it didn't even register with him. He still had to give her that remark about how she didn't deserve him. And actually, I agree with him, but not in the way that he meant. Bye Duncan. I won't miss you.

 

Very much looking forward to next season. The military has no idea what it's in for with Helena. Heh.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

that just like with a copy machine she is pretty much a copy of a copy and therefore not quite as sharp as the original.

Heh, exactly what they said about #4 in Multiplicity.

[LittleIggy]

IRL, that pencil at high velocity to the eye would be fatal, I'm sure. I want Rachel to be dead after destroying that marrow, but this being OB we can't be sure.

Edited June 23, 2014 by LittleIggy

[miles2go]

I hope Rachel survived, because to see her with an eyepatch would be fantastic

 

Yup.  And I really want someone who's clever with photoshop to do an "evil eye-patch Rachel".  (If it hasn't already been done.)

[Zuleikha]

I thought Rachel looked dead, but it seems clear from the interviews that TPTB were deliberately non-committal so they could decide when they map out S3. 

 

I feel like the finale was everything good and bad about the season. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time, riveted by all the moments. I liked all the big twists. But there were a lot of little things that when I thought about them, I really didn't like. I was also in the group that minded Allison and Cosima accepting Helena without any discussion of her murders of Katja and willingness to murder them. After all, unlike Sarah, they had worked with Katja for a somewhat lengthy time period. I think it also would have been a good character beat for Helena to apologize and show contrition for murdering four of her sestras. I did feel it was emotionally true that they ultimately did accept her, though.

 

I was excited to see Cosima finally doing science. She's been too much of a plot device this season and too little of an agent. It was good to see her brains back on display. The pieces are in place for stem cell treatment, so I do think she'll survive. I am unhappy that we had so much of this plot, though, and it's still unresolved by the season end. Unless they're going to actually kill Cosima off, it seems like too much time spent on it. I don't want them to kill Cosima off, so I'd rather it end up being bad pacing.

 

Mark felt right for the big reveal. Strangely, I have faith in that actor. I agree with TPTB that he did something interesting with the role. As long as Felix gets a plot and some importance (after all, he should be important... there must be a reason Mrs. S took him), I'm glad he's not the clone. My theory on Paul is that Paul was sent to infiltrate Dyad without Project Castor knowing what Dyad was doing. I think he was kept in the dark about the cloning to make it less likely that he would slip up. I think his promotion was a recognition that he now knew so much more. Maybe that's fanwanking on my part, but it's also the only way to reconcile S1 Paul with S2 Paul. The Tony episode should have done a better job setting up the Paul reveal, though (and does this mean Sammy was also a Project Castor double agent? That seems a bit much)

 

The season as a whole, though, was flawed enough to make me concerned/lower my expectations for next season. Allison could have been removed from it. She has no place on the show right now. The show's morality is non-existent. Rachel and Helena have very similar backgrounds, but Helena gets to be welcomed into Clone Club with no real redemption or apology and Rachel gets a pencil to the eye due to her baby rabies driving her beyond the pale. As a character, I think Rachel deserved better (and as a practical issue, she basically admitted she was going off script to Delphine so why were Dyad resources so willing to do shady medical shenanigans with Cosima and Sarah just so Rachel could try and get a baby out of Sarah's eggs... and why did Rachel need the ovary operation thing instead of just harvesting Sarah's eggs like Sarah consented to?). The Aynsley murder meant nothing and did nothing for Allison's character except to set up black comedy segueway time. Remember how in S1, Allison was actually part of the real plot and not just comic relief? Also, Allison's contract? Never meant anything. 

 

I don't know why the show didn't do the obvious thing of have Allison be the sick clone. Cosima would have stayed connected because of the science; Allison's contract could have been used to affect treatment possibilities/decisions, and Allison would have had a role in the main plot. Sometimes the obvious is the way to go.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Also, Allison's contract? Never meant anything.

I think Alison's contract was intended to mean nothing though. Its purpose was to lull her into a false sense of security while getting her to agree to provide biological samples regularly. Dyad had no intention of letting her go unmonitored. They were just trying to find a way to calm her down and get her to be cooperative.

[MDKNIGHT]

The Clone Dance Party gave me hope that my wish for a music video of the clones performing Wannabe by the Spice Girls will happen. the guy who plays Donnie in an interview rermarked that Tatiana has to figure out how the clones make love and each is different and now we saw that each dances very differently too.  God she's great. Thought Helena was going to swing her head off her shoulders. Alison initially being too uptight to move anything but her head until Felix got her on the floor proper was a nice touch. 

 

Ahh hippy dippy Cosima of course you'd hug Crazy Shakira clone despite her being a dangerous wacko.  Peace love and understanding. Boy do I hope you read the notes in the Island of Dr Mareau fast enough to save yourself.  I love that geeky genius and it would break my heart to lose her.  I also awed when she thought of Delphine in a kind of angel hallucination.  She really does love her.  Too bad I wouldn't put it past Rachel to wack her out of spite. 

 

And I agree EyePatch is coming.  I wonder if there is a way of making an eyepatch look particularly expensive to fit her style.  Maybe one for each colored outfit?

 

The boy clones are going to be even more trouble.  Why don't government types ever figure out that by making super soldiers who follow orders blindly you also make

them easy to be taken over by somebody else who they will follow blindly?

 

Does anybody else think it is possible that the writers are deliberately putting in some events being really really long shots but happening anyway because there really is a religious dimension to reality?  By that I mean you have the DYAD that believe in science above all else and are evil and you have the Prolethians who are a cult and think they do God's biddy and are evil and other shady people all trying to subject the clones to their will OK?  BUT Sarah Manning HAPPENS to be walking at the trains station at the EXACT time that Beth kills herself setting a whole bunch of things in motion and really what are the chances of that?  So maybe God or Destiny or SOMETHING is playing a part to try to offset DYAD and the Prolithians and the army etc etc because there really IS (in this universe) something other than science and chance influencing the universe.  Just a thought.

[Captanne]

I got frustrated with both 24 and Lost when ridiculous piling on started happening.  (In 24, first day, we ended up with girls over cliffs and pregnant, amnesiac mother/wives and - I called bullshit on the puma.)

 

I called bullshit on the Pacific Island Polar Bear in Lost and then got actually angry when the creators admitted to throwing shit against a wall and seeing what stuck.

 

I totally understand the concern here with Orphan Black but (okay, aside from the dreadful Tony) I just don't get that feeling here -- yet.

 

I'm really enjoying the ride and am looking forward to next season's developments.

 

It may be because Orphan Black isn't water cooler conversation.  I don't have to listen to obnoxious over-evaluation from casual watchers.  I can come here and get intelligent reviews and invested viewers asking smart questions and making groovy observations.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Captanne

[Bort]

Yup.  And I really want someone who's clever with photoshop to do an "evil eye-patch Rachel".  (If it hasn't already been done.)

It has.

[Athena]

Mark felt right for the big reveal. Strangely, I have faith in that actor. I agree with TPTB that he did something interesting with the role. As long as Felix gets a plot and some importance (after all, he should be important... there must be a reason Mrs. S took him), I'm glad he's not the clone. My theory on Paul is that Paul was sent to infiltrate Dyad without Project Castor knowing what Dyad was doing. I think he was kept in the dark about the cloning to make it less likely that he would slip up. I think his promotion was a recognition that he now knew so much more. Maybe that's fanwanking on my part, but it's also the only way to reconcile S1 Paul with S2 Paul. The Tony episode should have done a better job setting up the Paul reveal, though (and does this mean Sammy was also a Project Castor double agent? That seems a bit much)

 

 

When we first met Mark, I thought the actor had potential. He could subtle and he played repressed quite well. I've been less interested in him since he's become more and more in love with Gracie. The relationship is a bit creepy because Gracie is probably at most 16. I can't see her being older. I think the show will always focus on the girl clones, but Castor throws something else in the mix.

 

My thoughts about Paul's role is the same as yours. It seems Castor has been spying on DYAD for awhile. Maybe they have a flaw or maybe they are just plain curious because it was their 'sister' project. I don't think Sammy being another double agent is that far fetched since Paul was a double agent/ghost too.

[Captanne]

If Castor was a one off -- and we only see three -- then I'm not too worried.  If Castor ends up being a whole second tier clone project then, yes, I agree with those who think the show needs to rein it in.  We, as viewers, have plenty on our plates to consume and digest.  We don't need a whole new level of issues presented by an entirely new population of clones.

 

I mean, thinking outside the box can always come up with solutions but this show is still on its training wheels.

 

Of course, that's just my opinion and I surely ain't no LA (or Toronto, for that matter) show-runner.  I'm just a casual observer.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Captanne

[Kaboom 2.0]

I am really late on this but bravo to the showrunners for a great finale and to all of you posters for your thoughts, observations, etc. Sure the finale wasn't perfect and not every viewer was satisfied. Some questions were answered, other questions were raised. I wouldn't want everything tied up in a lovely bow anyway, now we get to speculate and guess and relive the past seasons' events until the new season starts. :-)

 

Loved: Art's phone call to Fee and Helena eating everything in his apartment; Fee asking Helena if she torched the creepy fish farm and her answer; Clone Dance Party; Team Cosima and Scott (and later Cosima and Kira) doing science; the night after Clone Dance Party, Fee sleeping with Kira on the couch, I totally see him not wanting that little girl out of his sight ever again; Sarah and Cosima's talk in bed (I may have shed a tear); Rachel getting it right in the eye; Cosima NOT dying; Kira giving her Duncan's The Island of Dr. Moreau; Mrs. S marvelling at the hotties Sarah's hooked up with when two of them, Cal and Paul, meet; and surprisingly, Gracie and Mark getting married, I don't know why but seeing them in that lovely, bright, heavenly church interior made me think of all the hell that may end up being dumped on them next  year.

 

Hated: hm, not much. Oh wait, Helena getting shafted by Mrs. S although I'm sure the military will soon regret their deal. Very little Alison. Sarah's scheduled surgery to remove an ovary...WTF...was that Rachel's doing?? The first thing I thought of was Rachel wanting that ovary to be implanted in her so she could reproduce. And I swear, show, I SWEAR, if ANYthing happens to Scott next season...(pushing up my sleeves, removing earrings, putting Vasoline in my hair, getting into fight stance)...

 

I seriously gasped "Felix?!" when we saw the boy-clone's back, my boyfriend actually rolled his eyes when I did (he likes OB but thinks I'm too invested lol). I'm not familiar with AM in anything but OB but I can't wait to see him Maslany-it-up as the Castor boys.

 

Also, MH (Cal) is on TWO shows whose season premieres are slated for 2015 that I watch, OB and GoT. SIGH.

[tveyeonyou]

The reason I went with the Sarah's abortion equals mini-Tat is because I thought Marion said something like 'Sarah, meet your daughter' or words along those lines.  I'm not married to the idea and to be honest, I think my own brain has been turned to mush from watching TFGH aka General Hospital. :D

After watching soaps for so long I sometimes forget there are real writers who don't recycle storyline after storyline.

 

Add me to the Whew,It's Not Felix crowd when we saw the male clone. And to the poster who mentioned Enver Gjokaj would have been the perfect choice of an actor who can keep up with Tat, that would have been a dream team.

I'm really looking forward to reading The Bruun/Donnie's rating of the clones for both the finale and Season 2 as a whole.

[Captanne]

Off topic:  TFGH, hee.  I haven't heard that in a long time.  

[Bort]

The reason I went with the Sarah's abortion equals mini-Tat is because I thought Marion said something like 'Sarah, meet your daughter' or words along those lines. I'm not married to the idea and to be honest, I think my own brain has been turned to mush from watching TFGH aka General Hospital. :D

Marion said "meet your sister."

I get the whole thing about soaps rotting your brain. I quit watching them years ago (mostly because the ones I watched were cancelled) so thankfully my thought processes don't immediately go to the worse-case-plot-scenario.

[marceline]

One lesson I've learned from watching tv over the last ten years is that you can't trust Michelle Forbes. She is a scary bitch and is two seconds off of messing your shit all up. I don't buy her "I just want to help" story at all. She is definitely working her own sketch agenda and soon enough she will show her true colors. (The actress is fantastic, and I'm sure she is a lovely person. I'm just saying that things get crazy fast on tv when she shows up.)

LMAO! I've been watching her since her days on Guiding Light and you are telling the absolute truth.

[Frisco]

I think I am still speechless! OMG  Boy clones!  The sisters dancing around was the best.  Please let Cosima LIVE!!!  I loved it.  Great finale.  Cannot wait for Season 3.

[shapeshifter]

IRL, that pencil at high velocity to the eye would be fatal, I'm sure. I want Rachel to be dead after destroying that marrow, but this being OB we can't be sure.

I can imagine Rachel in a hi-tech wheel chair (with a hi-tech eye implant), both her motor and cognitive abilities impaired, in a dramatic scene with a tear streaming down her face. Tatiana could make this work.

[TaraS1]

I know it's probably for the best that they chose Mark, but man I really wanted Felix to be the boy clone just because there can never be enough Jordan Gavaris on this show. The actor who plays Mark gives me the creeps, but I guess that's the point.

 

I can't believe I've gone from being thrilled that Helena "died" last season, to having a big smile on my face every time she turns up somewhere, shoveling food into her mouth.  Just because of Tatiana's delivery, the line of the episode for me was her, "Hello, sestra brother. " to Felix when Art called him LOL.  And then Felix's "Oh shit!" reply.

[possibilities]

Hitting Rachel in the eye was luck. Cinematic and beautiful, but luck. There's just no way they could have planned that perfect hit, given the lack of choreographed cooperation by the target or advance planning by the shooter. So, let's say it could just as easily have hit her in the thigh or the arm-- hell breaking loose, angry bull on rampage. But not death-- unless the pencil was poisoned, not a simple pencil but a dummy pencil designed to act like a syringe a deliver a poison-- or an elephant tranquilizer at minimum.

 

So I think any Rachel surviving that to the eye would be a retcon. The show may go here, but I won't think it's particularly credible. But if I accepted the perfect bullseye to her eye, I guess I'll accept a surviving Rachel with an eye patch. I'd assume she'd want an eye transplant, though-- pluck out Sarah's and stick it in Rachel's head. Clone transplants wouldn't have rejection issues, either-- but no, I don't want to see the show give us Sarah with an eyepatch instead of Rachel.

 

Also, Dyad will have to decide whether Rachel is too off the reservation/her rocker to be in a position of authority (and deserved the shot??) or whether she's truly what they want in a position of trust. Either way, there'd be fallout from the incident. Maybe she's demoted, or fully "relieved" of her duties, and needs to find a way to live as a monitored outsider like the rest of them. Or maybe she's kept in a lab for study like they seemed to want to do with Cosima and Sarah (and Jennifer). Or she wanders and goes feral like Helena?? I don't know. But just slapping an eyepatch on her isn't going to be enough. And frankly, if they do want to keep her alive, she needs to grow and change in some way because she was becoming too much of a one dimensional villain.

 

As someone who spent a bunch of time at death's door (and eventually recovered), I found Cosima's appearing to be dead and then waking up to be credible, without Kira having magic powers of healing. She was very far away, and it took her a while to come back. I also had a cat who had a stroke, appeared to be dead (limp body, tongue hanging out, no breaths) for an equal amount of time to what we saw with Cosima. And then she came back and started to regain her faculties and lived another few months as a seemingly normal but very aged (20 years) feline, before finally going for good. I think this often happens with people who are dying-- it may be that they seem gone for longer and longer periods, and have more and more trouble rousing themselves from sleep, then one day it's forever. Some people go quickly, others in stages.

 

It didn't even occur to me that we were supposed to trust Marion. She had a clone in a cage. She traded Helena like property. She thought nothing of profiting from human engineering. She didn't stop Rachel from kidnapping Kira. She ordered Rachel to kill Leekie. She may be useful to Sarah and the sestras when their interests align, but she's not loyal or trustworthy or anything like a friend. She's a mercenary like Mrs S-- will sell you (or anyone or anything) out in favor of her personal priorities, and won't warn you of what she's planning, either. Her only principles are: "what I want and how I can get it."

 

Paul tries to get "Beth" to run away with him after she quits the force.  That made sense, and said something about his character, when it was revealed that he was a very unhappy monitor who was there against his will.  He wanted to escape Dyad's control and take Beth with him.  Now that he's been a double agent the whole time?  If Beth had agreed to run off to Rio, was Paul just going to leave the military all together, does he hate working for them too?  Or was he going to take her to them?

I don't really like Paul as a double agent all along, either, but I don't think it's technically inconsistent. The military wanted a clone. If he convinced one to go with him, I assume he'd take her to them. And for him to be sent to Dyad and told: "find out what they're doing, get close to this Rachel person" seems like a perfectly adequate briefing to send him in and not inform him in advance, and could easily take several years in an organization with as many layers as Dyad has. Then, at some point, they tell him: "try to bring 'Beth' to us." the showrunners apparently said in an interview that he did have some persona; feeling for Sarah, so maybe he wanted to run away with her, but if not, then okay, I can believe it either way. I just don't like it all that much because I think Paul as a character was more interesting when he was grey and layered, not merely a very secret agent for the other side. He seemed really cold in the car with "You did what you had to do" where in the past he seemed more like he was conflicted, and that conflict made him interesting.

Edited June 23, 2014 by possibilities

[Zuleikha]

I think Alison's contract was intended to mean nothing though. Its purpose was to lull her into a false sense of security while getting her to agree to provide biological samples regularly. Dyad had no intention of letting her go unmonitored. They were just trying to find a way to calm her down and get her to be cooperative.

 

There are two issues for that with me. Issue #1 is that I think the whole Dyad having not intention of letting her go unmonitored is stupid in the first place. We've been shown nothing to justify the monitors, so IMHO, based on what we've seen it makes as much sense for Dyad to have behaved honestly and sincerely with Allison as to have not. Cosima has been functionally unmonitored (since they know Delphine's loyalty is to Cosima first and Dyad second) and even Rachel's been unmonitored for some amount of time since Paul's disappearance.

 

Issue #2 is if the contract never means anything on the show, then by extension, it doesn't really matter whether Sarah signed it or rejected it. If it doesn't really matter that Sarah ultimately rejected it, then Sarah's choice becomes stupid instead of bold. She needlessly antagonized Dyad and Rachel and created a whole mess of trouble for herself, Kira, and Mrs. S that could have been avoided. If Sarah had signed the contract, she apparently wouldn't have bound herself to anything significant, and she would have bought herself some time/space to peacefully figure out Dyad's agenda. Given that Rachel's entire motivation/agenda seems to be curing her infertility and having a birth child and that the clone sickness is connected to infertility, I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine an alternate universe in which Sarah choose to cooperate with Rachel/Dyad because their interests are fairly aligned (i.e. Sarah wants Cosima/other sick clones to have a cure to their sickness and Rachel wants a cure to her infertility, so Sarah chooses to let her fertility be studied/Kira give blood and eventually bone marrow samples). Rachel wouldn't have the precipitating events to drive her so fully off the rails. 

 

Also, all of the emotional impact of the scene where Cosima/Delphine discover the trademark, frantically call Sarah, Allison signs the contract, elevator doors open on empty elevator, and Rachel gets the up yours, proclone message are just emotional manipulation to make us feel like something significant happened for both Allison and Sarah when really, not much did.

[LoneHaranguer]

It's not often you see a record player in a show these days with a contemporary setting, at least not owned by someone as young as Felix.

 

I really liked how they melded Kira's physics lesson with the construction of its "practical application".

 

Did the writers just tell us what Duncan used for his encryption code by having Cosima explain her tattoo? If he knew pi to 6000 digits, I'm sure he had other mathematical ratios memorized as well, especially one that so tied into his work.

 

 

It seems Castor has been spying on DYAD for awhile. Maybe they have a flaw or maybe they are just plain curious because it was their 'sister' project.

Even though the projects were set up to work independently, you're going to have folks interested in hearing about any new ideas or breakthroughs on the other side.

[Impromptu]

RE the issue of Sarah having had an abortion in her past and what potentially happened to that fetus, from this interview with the creators of the show, it seems like that was something that Tatiana improvised when they shot that scene.

[we] did it in a hand-held, very spontaneous way. We just asked her all sorts of questions. Just threw question after question at her that we wrote down and she didn’t know which questions we were going to ask. So every time she was hearing a question, she was responding very spontaneously and very in the moment.

Was the question about Sarah having an abortion scripted or was that on the fly as well?

JF: That was one of those moments, one of those special moments where we caught that completely on the fly and she didn’t know we were going to ask it. I think Graeme sort of bombed that question in and literally while we were rolling and those were the responses we got to it.

 

 

So it seems that Sarah's past abortion is not likely to play into the future story arc - it's more a tribute to the creative character research that TM has done.

 

Full interview here: http://www.theloop.ca/tv_guide_canada_orphan-black_210/

[lulee]

When we first met Mark, I thought the actor had potential. He could subtle and he played repressed quite well. I've been less interested in him since he's become more and more in love with Gracie. The relationship is a bit creepy because Gracie is probably at most 16. I can't see her being older. I think the show will always focus on the girl clones, but Castor throws something else in the mix.

They've never specified, as far as I recall, but I figured that Gracie was meant to be 18. She looks it to me, and then with her and Mark having a church wedding, that seemed to cement that she's legally an adult (unless there's a "I'm 17 but my mother is out finding brood mares and my father was just killed by a vengeance-driven clone who "inseminated" him and lit the ranch on fire" clause in their state/province).

[Athena]

They've never specified, as far as I recall, but I figured that Gracie was meant to be 18. She looks it to me, and then with her and Mark having a church wedding, that seemed to cement that she's legally an adult (unless there's a "I'm 17 but my mother is out finding brood mares and my father was just killed by a vengeance-driven clone who "inseminated" him and lit the ranch on fire" clause in their state/province).

 

The actress is around 19 I believe, but their relationship is not really a conventionally comfortable one nor do I believe they have a lot of chemistry. I think Mark is boring when he's acting like a lovesick puppy so I was less interested in him as the season wore on. It'll be interesting to see how the actor does with Cage Boy, Miller and all the other Castor clones.

[praeceptrix]

This might be a silly question, but why does it seem as though everyone accepts at face value that the vials of reddish liquid which Rachel was waving around & ultimately destroyed were actually Kira's bone marrow? Given the likely scientific value of the bone marrow (not just to Cosima, either), isn't it more logical that Rachel was using decoy vials to force Sarah's hand at a particularly stressful moment, and that the real bone marrow was safe elsewhere?

[lulee]

This might be a silly question, but why does it seem as though everyone accepts at face value that the vials of reddish liquid which Rachel was waving around & ultimately destroyed were actually Kira's bone marrow? Given the likely scientific value of the bone marrow (not just to Cosima, either), isn't it more logical that Rachel was using decoy vials to force Sarah's hand at a particularly stressful moment, and that the real bone marrow was safe elsewhere?

i thought that, but if those were decoys and if Rachel survives, she's not going to up to or interesting in revealing where the real vials are. So it would matter for Rachel's characterization but not for cosima's treatment.

This show is rarely specific with the timeline, but I wouldn't be surprised if Cosima's decoding of Duncan's note runs up against the window for Kira to be eligibl to donate again.