Leaving Neverland

[Robert Lynch]

23 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

I also wondered if it was also because his nose was so messed up it affected his breathing when he slept

 My shock was when Wade visited MJ after the trial to celebrate with wine and Michael went upstairs to sleep. I think what made it sadder was the kids not affected to the episodes of MJ's eccentric behavior as if it was normal. I mean, he just announced his tour earlier this year, correct? I always wondered if he would have lived and a lot of people thought he was pushed because of money troubles, would it still happen at all?

[msrachelj]

11 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Does anyone ever think that MJ unconsciously killed himself? I call it a passive suicide. The amount of drugs he demanded the doctor administer ... these were not drugs to get high. These were drugs to knock you out cold. This isn't Phillip Seymour Hoffman or Cory Monteith who overdosed after a long history of heroin abuse. There seems something very fishy about MJ demanding drugs that completely knock you into unconsciousness for so long.

This isn't based on anything in particular, but I noticed at the funeral that Prince, Paris, and Blanket were ... good looking kids. And actually they looked a lot like the boys Jordan, Wade, James, Macaulay Culkin, etc. I wonder if MJ ever felt that the day would come when he'd have sexual urges for his own children, and he unconsciously wanted to die so he demanded more and more dangerous drugs from his doctor. I also think maybe he thought that death would finally silence all the rumors and stories ... for him. 

didn't something come out years ago that the children are probably not biologically his? hopefully for them , it's true.

 

9 hours ago, blixie said:

This didn't bother me I think it's VERY human to want to indulge in the good memories, rather than the terrible truth, for her they are divorced from each other. At the time she didn't know, at the time she believed he was benign, these parents were blinded and seduced by fame, lulled like sp many were into believing Michael was asexual and harmless, I know I was, for anyone who grew up with MJ it was a well  honed message broadcast constantly and one he performed in person brilliantly I'm sure, throw in all the perks, and the sense that depriving  your son of private time with MJ was making him miserable, it was all too easy to rationalize every transgressive request. Also she is owning her shit slightly more than Joy Robson. 

These parents made terrible mistakes, they did it because he masterfully manipulated them into doing it, it doesn't absolve them from failing to protect their children from a predator, but it does make me understand if still not abide their decisions.

no fucking way. they deserve to have their names blackened for eternity. they "sold" their babies to a rapist for whatever kind of "riches" (a home in one case) they received.  no pity. not one iota. they are as guilty as sin. they have to live with what they did for the rest of their lives and i'm glad. they were disgusting in this doc. 

[kelslamu]

At first, I wondered how you could be 22 and not realize what had happened.  Now, I think it would be rather easy to not do so.  I think about how I, to this day, think how only I was responsible for whatever I did or decisions I made when I was young.  That small world headspace carried on with me apparently.  I wasn't abused, but I think it would be way stronger if that were the case for someone.  I think they said Michael said no one would understand their love, but that it was good.  They couldn't ever tell because they would both be in trouble.  Us vs. the world mentality.  All the while, the child/parent relationship had eroded.  Now, this child isn't even Jackson's favorite so all they want to do is get back to that feeling.  It may mean they want to make him proud so he notices them again or protect him which is protecting themselves as well.  No one, from my understanding, ever really told these guys the whole thing  was wrong and it was never their faults.  They just got manipulated into being emotionally dependent on this guy and that world.  So, later in life I can see them totally disassociating themselves from it, yet possibly reverting to that kneejerk response to him if he contacted them again.   It would be so hard to realize a lot of your childhood was framed by this guy's abuse.  

The aha moment of watching your child grow bringing out the trauma rings true.  You think of how easy a kid could be taken in by such a manipulator.  I will say there is no way in hell my kids would have EVER stayed in some man's room.  I wouldn't have let him take off on his neverending acres in a golf cart with them either.  I would have also grilled my kids.  I think the mothers do need therapy as well like they said on the Oprah show.  That being said, even though they are deceased, the fathers of those two boys were at fault as well.  

[Melina22]

9 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

... the children are probably not biologically his? hopefully for them , it's true.

Looking at them, it seems impossible that he's their father. And if he wanted to adopt children, that's fine. That's his right. What was bizarre was the whole fake marriage with Debbie Rowe, then having a third child from... some unknown person, all the while maintaining the charade that they were his biological children. It's like he was daring people to say, "You can't be their biological father!" If he hadn't been massively rich and powerful they would have. 

We got used to sooooo much weirdness. 

That said, I feel so, so sad for his children right now. What a terrible legacy he left them. 

[kelslamu]

Oh yeah, as someone referenced, the hours long phone calls and multiple faxes should have been a red flag.  Hell, I wasn't on the phone to girlfriends that long as a teenager.  What two boys (even if same age) talk for hours daily on the phone?  Aggghhh!  Yeah, I know those moms were groomed, but I think they were also willing to handwave way too much to blame it on just being groomed.  

[lovinbob]

9 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

What I find really interesting about the Jackson Estate statement that Oprah partially read is that they call both James and Wade perjurers.  Isn't their alleged perjury lying that Michael didn't molest them?  So they're liars but what proves them to be liars is them saying Michael didn't do what his estate wants people to think he didn't do but that tacitly admits that Michael did do it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be perjurers.

THIS, a million times. What else would the estate have been referencing? So bizarre. 

[Liamsmom617]

 This has been sickening. I halfway agree with the posters who've said that, in MJ's mind, he wasn't doing anything wrong, but he knew society believed it was wrong and that he therefore had to hide it. And as for discarding one kid for another, from biographies I read about him back in the day, he was similarly ruthless with managers and other people he employed. Plying them w/alcohol, though?  Getting them aroused w/hetero porn (which, yes, sexuality is a continuum, so who knows, maybe that actually turned MJ on too....but I highly doubt it)....That kinda changes the narrative for me. 

  My belief at the time of his death, and even more so now, is that he was beginning to feel attracted to/compelled to molest his two sons, and that put strain on his heart and caused him to literally need to be knocked out with Propofol to be able to sleep. Think about it: At the time he died, his oldest son was 12 and his youngest son was 7.  Those are the ages Jimmy Safechuck and Wade Robson were when he molested them.

  He was clearly a sick fuck, more so than any of us ever suspected. Damaged, yes. None of that condones or excuses ANY of this. As a social worker, I'm fascinated (while still horrified) by the psychology/psychiatry of all this. Other mental health professionals I know have speculated that MJ was schizoaffective. (Being a caseworker, not an LCSW/counselor, I've had to look that up b/c I am not 100% sure I know what that diagnosis is.)

   It's like a worst-case scenario or perfect storm: Damaged, sick pedophile w/all the money in the world with which to bribe families and stock his house and property with amusement parks, video games, etc. and the fame and public acclaim to cause people to seek him out. He didn't have to coach a children's sports team or work in clergy or as a teacher to get access to potential victims. They came to him.

 

I too feel terrible for MJ's kids. Seems rather obvious that they aren't biologically his. Come on. Those kids, at least the two oldest, are straight-up Caucasian. Also, would he have wanted to take a chance on passing on the vitiligo, which was so traumatizing to his self-esteem (I don't fault him for that; I have struggled w/a skin disorder and it really does take a toll on your self-confidence)? Paris, the daughter, is clearly struggling since his death, and has already made at least one suicide attempt. Somewhere inside she may "know" that these allegations against the father she adored are true, and just can't face it. And who could blame her?

  I really don't think he ever molested his sons, but as I stated earlier, I do believe he may have been fighting the urge to do so at the time of his death. Not sure if it would make a difference to him that they were not biologically his (and in no way am I saying that one's children by adoption, surrogacy, etc. are not really "yours", but we're not talking about a normal person here). The compulsion was probably becoming very strong. 

   Good point, which hadn't occurred to me, by other posters about MJ not returning to Neverland b/c of the guilt of all the atrocities he had committed there. 

[Mindthinkr]

18 minutes ago, Liamsmom617 said:

My belief at the time of his death, and even more so now, is that he was beginning to feel attracted to/compelled to molest his two sons, and that put strain on his heart and caused him to literally need to be knocked out with Propofol to be able to sleep. Think about it: At the time he died, his oldest son was 12 and his youngest son was 7.  Those are the ages Jimmy Safechuck and Wade Robson were when he molested them.

I think that you are onto something. It would alleviate any temptation if he was medically knocked out. His urges were probably so strong that he thought this was the best solution. I go back to his statement that he always got what he wanted. I think even MJ knew that to do this to his own children would be wrong (or hit too close to him if a relative had done it to him). 

[Drogo]

22 hours ago, lovinbob said:

I get this, but as a mother, it is very hard to buy into this completely. All I can say is that at least these stories remind me of what to know to protect my kids. Under no circumstances should my child sleep over with an adult. If a powerful person takes an unusual interest in my kids, there is no innocent reason for it. Too good to be true is just that.

Amen to all this. As a parent, you can never 100% trust anyone but yourself (+ your parents and spouse, if you're lucky) with your children.  As far as any grown man of any social/financial stature asking me if my son can sleep over at his house, he's probably not making it to the end of the sentence. 

They mean to tell me that NO FRIEND OR RELATIVE of either of these two "close-knit" families expressed concern they could've genuinely considered? 

 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, msrachelj said:

no fucking way. they deserve to have their names blackened for eternity. they "sold" their babies to a rapist for whatever kind of "riches" (a home in one case) they received.  no pity. not one iota. they are as guilty as sin. they have to live with what they did for the rest of their lives and i'm glad. they were disgusting in this doc. 

1 hour ago, kelslamu said:

At first, I wondered how you could be 22 and not realize what had happened.  Now, I think it would be rather easy to not do so.  I think about how I, to this day, think how only I was responsible for whatever I did or decisions I made when I was young.  That small world headspace carried on with me apparently.  I wasn't abused, but I think it would be way stronger if that were the case for someone.  I think they said Michael said no one would understand their love, but that it was good.  They couldn't ever tell because they would both be in trouble.  Us vs. the world mentality.  All the while, the child/parent relationship had eroded.  Now, this child isn't even Jackson's favorite so all they want to do is get back to that feeling.  It may mean they want to make him proud so he notices them again or protect him which is protecting themselves as well.  No one, from my understanding, ever really told these guys the whole thing  was wrong and it was never their faults.  They just got manipulated into being emotionally dependent on this guy and that world.  So, later in life I can see them totally disassociating themselves from it, yet possibly reverting to that kneejerk response to him if he contacted them again.   It would be so hard to realize a lot of your childhood was framed by this guy's abuse.  

The aha moment of watching your child grow bringing out the trauma rings true.  You think of how easy a kid could be taken in by such a manipulator.  I will say there is no way in hell my kids would have EVER stayed in some man's room.  I wouldn't have let him take off on his neverending acres in a golf cart with them either.  I would have also grilled my kids.  I think the mothers do need therapy as well like they said on the Oprah show.  That being said, even though they are deceased, the fathers of those two boys were at fault as well.  

1 hour ago, kelslamu said:

Oh yeah, as someone referenced, the hours long phone calls and multiple faxes should have been a red flag.  Hell, I wasn't on the phone to girlfriends that long as a teenager.  What two boys (even if same age) talk for hours daily on the phone?  Aggghhh!  Yeah, I know those moms were groomed, but I think they were also willing to handwave way too much to blame it on just being groomed.  

16 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Amen to all this. As a parent, you can never 100% trust anyone but yourself (+ your parents and spouse, if you're lucky) with your children.  As far as any grown man of any social/financial stature asking me if my son can sleep over at his house, he's probably not making it to the end of the sentence. 

They mean to tell me that NO FRIEND OR RELATIVE of either of these two "close-knit" families expressed concern they could've genuinely considered? 

 

Yes, it is your job as a parent to protect your child and leaving a seven-year-old boy alone with a man you barely met for six days while you run off to the Grand Canyon is never acceptable and I don't care if you think that man is Jesus Christ reborn. A seven-year-old is defenseless against an adult man physically and mentally.  I wish Michael could go to jail for his crimes but that ship has already sailed. I remember both men said they stayed quiet to protect Michael, but the truth was they also stayed quiet to protect their families, particularly their mothers. It was not until they had sons of their owns that they realized how horribly their mothers failed them.

[Dr.OO7]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

One thing that I don't think any documentary I've seen has really managed to convey is how the abuser manipulates the parents into trusting him (or her).  As a result, it's so easy to "other" them and feel safe from the predators.  But these families didn't see Michael as some sort of stranger.  He ingratiated himself into their lives. He took care of them. He let them take care of him.  He convinced them that, even with his huge family, he was just a lonely man robbed of a childhood. 

Truly accomplished predators know how to manipulate the families into seeing them in a certain image.  They work on the human desire to believe we're good judges of character.  And we tend to trust our own judgment over any evidence to the contrary. 

This is why time and again whenever one of these scandals break, against all proper instincts, society sides with the perpetrator:

"He's such a nice guy, I can't imagine he'd do something like that!"

Even with all the graphic testimony, people still want to believe that Michael was a saint.

It occurred to me that Jerry Sandusky is another Average Joe (though he was admittedly a local celebrity) who was able to snow God knows how many unsuspecting parents--several of his victims said their abuse either started or occurred on overnight trips.

[The Solution]

I tried to watch this pile of dreck last night and had to turn it off. While Michael Jackson is a monster and should burn in Hell for all eternity, what kind of parent allows their pre-pubescent child to spend the night with a 35-year-old man?

I kept finding myself saying "Oh, poor you" to the screen a la Livia and Tony Soprano and saying "well, now you're going to make a career out of being a victim (or a victim's mother, or sister, etc., etc., etc.). I suppose I'm not a very empathetic person, but come on!

[Lady Iris]

11 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

What I find really interesting about the Jackson Estate statement that Oprah partially read is that they call both James and Wade perjurers.  Isn't their alleged perjury lying that Michael didn't molest them?  So they're liars but what proves them to be liars is them saying Michael didn't do what his estate wants people to think he didn't do but that tacitly admits that Michael did do it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be perjurers.

Wait? What? Ohhhh, ok, I get it now. My brain needed a bit to process this. Excellent point. I'm sure that never even occurred to them or they wouldn't be yammering away with this.

The mothers though, I don't know that I'd have had the guts to go on film with what essentially is akin to confessing how they pimped their kids out.

When I really think about Wade and Jimmy and how they were shunted aside as they fell out of "favor" with MJ because he moved on to others. How painfully difficult and confusing it must've been for them. They could see that they weren't the "chosen one" anymore and when MJ came back around how happy it made them to be part of his life again. Its so not their fault and my heart breaks for the pain and confusion they went through at his hands. I truly hope they find peace in their lives.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Lady Iris

[Growsonwalls]

I wouldn't be too hard on the Jackson family children. We have to remember that from a very early age there was a severe power imbalance. Michael was the star, he was feted and pampered by people in the business and they were the backups. That power imbalance continued into adulthood. Even today they are dependent on Michael -- the money he left behind. So with that lifelong imbalance of power and always having to make Michael happy, I'm not surprised that many of them are either in complete denial or have a hard time facing the truth.

[funky-rat]

12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

What I find really interesting about the Jackson Estate statement that Oprah partially read is that they call both James and Wade perjurers.  Isn't their alleged perjury lying that Michael didn't molest them?  So they're liars but what proves them to be liars is them saying Michael didn't do what his estate wants people to think he didn't do but that tacitly admits that Michael did do it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be perjurers.

I kind-of get what they're saying.  They're saying (although not very well) that because they testified for Michael at his trials, that to now say that he molested them means they perjured themselves on the stand back then, so therefore, they're lying now.  That doesn't prove anything.  People perjure themselves quite frequently, under fear of retaliation, duress, being instructed to do so by others, etc.  Not a really good argument.  Grasping at straws is more like it.

1 hour ago, Camille said:

It occurred to me that Jerry Sandusky is another Average Joe (though he was admittedly a local celebrity) who was able to snow God knows how many unsuspecting parents--several of his victims said their abuse either started or occurred on overnight trips.

Sandusky isn't really more of an Average Joe than Nassar was - both were well respected and well connected in the sports world.  Pennsylvania in general treats football people as Gods, sadly, and the Happy Valley Kool Aid Drinkers are the worst.  Sandusky had been running his charity for 30 years and had been praised by Presidents, major sports team coaches (NFL and others), etc, and was part of a college football dynasty (many many people considered Joe Paterno a saint, and above reproach, so they figured whoever he surrounded himself with was good).  Many charities for at-risk kids focus on sports of all kinds - the general school of thought is to take kids who are loners, come from bad homes, etc, and have them focus on a goal, learn to work with others, build self esteem, etc.  Many of these charities are good (I work with some of them at my job).  But sadly, some are not.  Even more sadly, is that it's been shown over the years that some of these charities for at risk kids (not just sports ones) are purely a front for pedophiles.

Where the system failed in the Sandusky case is that accusations had been made against him before 2008 (when he was caught in the locker room, mid-act), but could not be proven (those came through mid/late 90's, IIRC).  The DA of Centre County at the time declined to prosecute, because he knew it would likely result in an acquittal, which was the correct thing to do.  His name was Ray Gricar, and he disappeared off the face of the planet a few years after he declined to prosecute, and is still missing, and presumed dead.  Happy Valley Kool Aid Drinkers think that someone offed him because of Sandusky, but that theory never held water - they're just grasping at whatever they can. When the first accusations came through (again, pre 2008), several people at Penn State voiced their opinions to a number of people that he should be investigated, but nothing happened. After Sandusky retired (around 2000), his charity was allowed to maintain an office at Penn State, and again, a number of people raised red flags, which were soundly ignored, Joe Paterno included.

Just like in the MJ case, people turned a blind eye, and the innocent suffered.

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I wouldn't be too hard on the Jackson family children. We have to remember that from a very early age there was a severe power imbalance. Michael was the star, he was feted and pampered by people in the business and they were the backups. That power imbalance continued into adulthood. Even today they are dependent on Michael -- the money he left behind. So with that lifelong imbalance of power and always having to make Michael happy, I'm not surprised that many of them are either in complete denial or have a hard time facing the truth.

MJ was responsible for himself, his family were not his jailers but most of them (Save Reba and Janet) were living off of HIS talent and celebrity. (Because they were lazy and jealous and entitled) They wanted to suck from the teat, and even if they suspected they weren’t going to ruin their own payday. 

[marie]

On 3/5/2019 at 9:18 AM, Rickster said:

Thanks, this is an interesting perspective, especially Robson at the second trial, which puts a different spin on part of the documentary. While on one level I can understand why Robson lied, at the same time I have had trouble understanding why a married 22 year old adult who suffered abuse from this guy, could not support a teenager who had the guts to go to the police. I wish this had been explored in the documentary or by Oprah more.

I actually thought the documentary did a good job delving into this. You have two men being asked to testify and both saying they don't want to. One of their mother's spidey sense kicks in and she knows without really having to be told exactly what she's subconsciously feared for years. The other mother tells her son that he owes it to his "friend" to stand up for him and that he might be the only one who can save him. 

To me, that anecdote, more than any other explained how Robson stayed in denial. Even when sending out flashing signals that "hey, something is wrong here", no one wanted to hear it. On one side, he had his entire industry worshipping this man. He was working with musicians who were presenting him with invented "Artist of the Millennium" awards (remember that awkward Britney presentation?), and on the other side he had his entire family circling the wagons to protect Jackson. I'm not shocked it took him so long to speak out, I'm shocked he ever did at all. 

[Lady Iris]

THE Michael Jackson Video Vanguard Award by MTV was a pretty big deal and its been changed since too.

If MJ could've only been what he appeared to be he could've done so much real good for people. So much genius and talent all wasted. I'll never listen to his music or watch his videos the same way again.

[marie]

Yeah, this wasn't the Vanguard Award. It wasn't an award at all. The whole situation was weird af. 

https://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/remember-michael-jackson-accepted-made-award-britney-spears-2372005

Quote

MJ heard a starstruck Britney call him “artist of the millennium” in passing, and good grief, did he roll with the concept like an absolute trooper.

“When I was a little boy growing up in Indiana if someone told me I’d be getting the Artist of the Millennium award, I’d never have believed it,” he told the room, cradling his new birthday trophy in a confused manner. In a brief ‘acceptance speech’ the singer then thanked: God, the magician David Blaine, Gladys Knight, Diana Ross, James Brown, and numerous others.

[ruby24]

I'm not so sure about the theory that he had himself knocked out to prevent himself from molesting his own kids. I mean, if he really believed this was "how they show love," then wouldn't he still apply that philosophy to them? Or was he that self-aware to know that he was hurting all children by doing what he did? 

To believe that would be to believe that he always knew deep down and suffered guilt because of it, but I just don't know if these compulsive pedophiles think that way. They rationalize it all out so that the outside world just doesn't "understand," that the rules don't apply to them somehow. And he was so narcissistic, usually narcissists aren't capable of that kind of self-awareness.

It is sad, because we know that he himself was a victim of child abuse, so you wonder if there's any part of him that realizes what he's doing. I did say that I believe there was a kind of Picture of Dorian Gray thing going on, where his physical self completely transformed to reflect the monster he was on the inside- maybe that indicates a subconscious guilt, I don't know. If he was capable of moments of genuine kindness or sweetness or compassion, like he seemed to be earlier in his life (unless it was all just part of the act), maybe there was an ability to recognize his own guilt that ate away at him later. But we have no way of really knowing.

[Kostgard]

54 minutes ago, marie said:

I actually thought the documentary did a good job delving into this. You have two men being asked to testify and both saying they don't want to. One of their mother's spidey sense kicks in and she knows without really having to be told exactly what she's subconsciously feared for years. The other mother tells her son that he owes it to his "friend" to stand up for him and that he might be the only one who can save him. 

To me, that anecdote, more than any other explained how Robson stayed in denial. Even when sending out flashing signals that "hey, something is wrong here", no one wanted to hear it. On one side, he had his entire industry worshipping this man. He was working with musicians who were presenting him with invented "Artist of the Millennium" awards (remember that awkward Britney presentation?), and on the other side he had his entire family circling the wagons to protect Jackson. I'm not shocked it took him so long to speak out, I'm shocked he ever did at all. 

The mothers' reactions may have played a role, but I think the hold MJ had over these two men was still very, very strong in 2005. Wade basically said that he still loved him and still felt the impulse to protect him even though he was starting to come to terms with what happened. James was at a point in 2005 where he knew that what MJ did was wrong, but as he clarified in the Oprah interview, he didn't refuse to testify because it was the right thing to do, but because he was terrified that with all the public scrutiny on the trial the truth about their relationship would come out and his life would be ruined. MJ's warning that if the truth was known both their lives would be over was still ringing in his ears. And James to this day still has that impulse to protect MJ (saying in the Oprah interview that he felt flashes of guilt over promoting this documentary). I think coming out from under that sort of conditioning has to be very, very difficult, so I can understand how someone who was an adult would still feel compelled to protect their abuser. Then you layer in the fact that the predator was one of the biggest stars the world has ever seen, and I can absolutely understand why one felt compelled to still defend him and one could only refuse to speak rather than speak the truth.

As for MJ's motivations towards the end of his life (the drug/alcohol use and abuse, knocking himself out at night), I have no idea if that was just enormous levels of fame twisting someone into destructiveness, or if he was trying to quiet his own demons. 

I really don't remember my reaction to the first trial (I just remember his rebuttal video). I was never a huge fan and thought he was super-weird, so I think I always believed it was possible but didn't pay attention to the trial. But by the 2005 trial, I absolutely believed he was guilty and it was because of the Martin Bashir interview. It wasn't him admitting that he shared his bed with children (defending it as "loving"). It was the little boy who was with him (was that Gavin?). At one point he was resting his head on MJ's shoulder, and the way he gazed up at him made me want to crawl out of my skin. It was not a look of admiration like "Look at my cool big brother". He was looking at him the way someone gazes at their lover (god, I hate that word). That's when I absolutely knew that it was true. The relationship he had with that boy was absolutely inappropriate and there was no question in my mind that he was abusing him.

But I wondered why he did that interview. Was he just that far out of touch that he didn't realize that he was releasing an explosion of red flags for the world to see? Or did he, somewhere deep down, want to get caught? Of course he changed his mind as the trial went on because I'm sure he didn't want to go to prison. But I wonder if his self-loathing got the better of him for a moment and he pulled the curtain back far enough to trigger an investigation. Or maybe he just thought he was untouchable. I have no idea.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Kostgard

[Blakeston]

11 hours ago, car54 said:

Remember Rabbi Schmuley?    The Michael that talked to him sounds like more of an adult--a delusional one who wanted to find his perfect woman--a combination of Mother Theresa, Princess Diana, and Katie Couric.    For some reason I am hearing Katie's voice going "ewww".

His comments about Angelina Jolie are flat out vulgar.

https://www.avclub.com/the-michael-jackson-tapes-by-rabbi-shmuley-boteach-1798218779

Michael didn't actually say that about Angelina. That was the author joking that they were hoping that MJ's sexual remarks were that juicy. (A really, really strange joke, to be sure - and confusingly written, too.)

10 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I'm not so sure about the theory that he had himself knocked out to prevent himself from molesting his own kids. I mean, if he really believed this was "how they show love," then wouldn't he still apply that philosophy to them? Or was he that self-aware to know that he was hurting all children by doing what he did? 

To believe that would be to believe that he always knew deep down and suffered guilt because of it, but I just don't know if these compulsive pedophiles think that way. They rationalize it all out so that the outside world just doesn't "understand," that the rules don't apply to them somehow. And he was so narcissistic, usually narcissists aren't capable of that kind of self-awareness.

I agree. I'd love to believe that MJ felt crushing guilt, and that guilt was what led him to deform himself and turn to drugs. But I don't think he was capable of feeling that level of empathy for others. He was too far gone. If anything, he was probably bitter that all of his child friends didn't rush to his defense.

He definitely hated himself on some level, as all narcissists do. And I think that's what the body dysmorphia was all about. But I think that was very, very deep-seated hatred, stemming from the abuse he suffered as a child.

[Liamsmom617]

I Ididn’t mean he had to knock himself out just to keep from molesting his sons, more that having to fight the compulsion was stressing him out to the point that he couldn’t sleep. And I have read accounts of pedophiles who said they’d kill anyone who molested their own kids, so then it came to their own kids, they drew a line or recognized it as being wrong (though of course there are pedophiles who exclusively molest their own kids/relatives).  I don’t know. MJ was so warped and so abnormal in so many ways, even for a pedo...who the hell knows what his thought process was?

Edited March 6, 2019 by Liamsmom617

[blixie]

Quote

 I do think that Wade having been in therapy much longer in addition to the fact that his professional life has put him in situations where he's in the spotlight more probably helped him during the interview portion.

Yes I think while James knew it was wrong for longer possibly the whole time, he also held the tension of the secret longer, the paradox of love/fear/revulsion for longer he didn't disclose until well after Wade. His mom understood in 2005, but he never said the words to her. Like someone observed Wade seemed better able to compartmentalize, by thinking of MJ as truly his friend that he loved and who loved him and the abuse was part of that loving relationship. James also looks stressed even in supposedly happy photographs of MJ and him together. I'm not saying Wade wasn't stressed also, or still having a terrible time coping now, just that James pain is written on his face then and even more so now in his ENTIRE body and demeanor.

And as weird as it seems Wade's work in choreography even though intrinsically linked to MJ, I think just the pure physicality of it probably helped manage the physical embodiment of his stress for a good long while, before it became another pressure to deal with.

[tljgator]

On 3/5/2019 at 10:46 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

I don't get HBO, so, was wondering if the Oprah interview based on this documentary also aired on HBO.  I thought it was coming on OWN last night, but, didn't see it. 

Sunnybebe, I watched it on the OWN OnDemand ... it's in an odd place -- listed where the Oprah Soul Sunday things are, but titled "After Neverland" or something like that. Hope you find it, and I definitely recommend it to those who also watched the documentary -- it helped me better process some of the things in the movie (thanks, Oprah!).

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, tljgator said:

Sunnybebe, I watched it on the OWN OnDemand ... it's in an odd place -- listed where the Oprah Soul Sunday things are, but titled "After Neverland" or something like that. Hope you find it, and I definitely recommend it to those who also watched the documentary -- it helped me better process some of the things in the movie (thanks, Oprah!).

I'll try to locate it. Thanks...........

Okay. I was able to view it online, OnDemand on the OWN website. Very interesting. I would like to discuss.  I'll look for it on the OWN shows, to see if there's a thread.  

Edited March 6, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[AgentRXS]

I have to say, as staunch MJ fan and defender, James Safechuck is what sells the documentary for me and changed my mind on Michael. I have many issues with Wade Robson and initially did not want to watch this at first because of him. I was big into NSYNC, BSB, Britney back in the day and saw him as a famewhore trying to latch on to NSYNC and Britney's star power. I remember him selling dance videos and name dropping MJ to gain status as a choreographer. I watched this because I was ready to come here and bash Wade afterwards for being on some BS.

But man, before Safechuck ever said a word, I believed him. His face said it all. That was a face of a man struggling to deal with this shit and I am totally concerned for his well-being. I am not sure he is as mentally prepared for the backlash from the MJ supporters as he thinks he is. What sickened me more was how his mother was so giddy in recounting the early days and how she even recounted the sleepovers with no indication of remorse, even now knowing what was going on.  I can't imagine getting so wrapped in someone's star power that I would think that was ok. I can't imagine how the "inner circle" who sent for these people and then cut off their access when MJ was through with them continued to work for him, knowing exactly what was going on. May everyone involved rot in hell.

Safechuck's story is all the more tragic because he WASN'T an MJ fan; he just happened to be a random kid actor who booked a commercial. I can't imagine how how many times he must've replayed in his mind "What if I had just turned down that commercial? How would things have been different?" He never really benefited from the MJ connection. I damn near threw up at the wedding rings--how sick.

MJ had his mental issues, but he was also crazy like a fox. I have no doubt now that he knew that as black man, he would get no sympathy and swift justice if he was caught (especially the older he got) , and that the surgeries and the skin bleaching were deliberate efforts to make him appear so eccentric that we would buy whatever he was trying to sell and it worked (for the most part). 

I feel sorry for the little boy that MJ was that was exposed to sex too young and endured abuse. I feel sorry that his family didn't care to see that anything was off with him when the pedophilia began and tried to seek treatment for him before he became too big to listen to anyone ( I don't believe this all started post-Thriller). However, he was spent 30 years as an adult that had access to the best of everything and there is no excuse so for not seeking therapy and treatment (I understand that religion might come in to play here, but if he knew it was wrong, he should have been doing everything he could to get rid of those urges). I feel sorry for all his victims that were manipulated not only by him but all the adults in their life that pressured or even forced them to maintain a connection with their predator.  I absolutely believe that both men still have such a love for Michael that it absolutely took him being dead for a significant amount of time to be able to process what they went through. There is no way in hell that I believe that they would have said anything if Michael was still alive and it doesn't have anything to do with money--- you could feel the mixed emotions of love, adoration, resentment and hatred for him in both men.  I can relate to their mixture of emotions on a much smaller scale as someone who was a lifelong fan, who wanted to believe in his innocence.

Edited March 6, 2019 by AgentRXS

[Robert Lynch]

I literally upset that the hardcore MJ fans are threatening Wade and James. I mean, did they forget that MJ was ridiculed by comedians like Eddie Murphy? He did a whole MJ skit on his HBO specials between 1983 and 1987. SNL did it with Tim Meadows and Amy Poehler. Same with Mad TV with Aries Spiers and Phil LeMarr. I didn't hear one outcry from the fans when that was happening. But now with this account, they are ready to pull the trigger on them. Disgusting. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[car54]

James seems to be at a really different place in his life --he seems much clearer about what happened, and it feels like he is still suffering grief for what happened to him and his family.    He really broke my heart.
 

I think Wade's life has been much more complicated--he stayed in the business and used his dance experience with Michael to try to have a career so I suspect staying in that world may have made his journey harder.    Also, in the beginning of the doc--they showed him at the age he met Michael--he was a freaking baby--5 years old--still talking with a baby lisp.    In addition to a great degree, his connection to Michael broke up his family--his father killed himself....and all of it could be connected in his mind to his experience being attached to Michael.      

I feel like James's mother probably came to some realization of what happened earlier than Wade's family--she seems much more stable than Wade's mother.  

Wade has a blog--it sounds like he is working very hard on himself.

https://waderobson.com/wadeswindow

I think for both of them--this experience of telling their story must be very big--but to tell it and know that Michael is dead, they will never be able to talk to him about what he did to them or in any way directly confront it, it has to be very hard.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, AgentRXS said:

I am not sure he is as mentally prepared for the backlash from the MJ supporters as he thinks he is. What sickened me more was how his mother was so giddy in recounting the early days and how she even recounted the sleepovers with no indication of remorse,

Unlike most people, I was disturbed when she described doing the dance of joy when she heard Michael was dead. Not because I couldn't understand, but because there's such a giant chasm between her reaction and her son's. He still feels guilty, part of him still loves Michael. It's like the 2 of them aren't on the same page at all, and I can see how this could make him feel very detached from her. 

One thing life has taught me is that no matter how empathetic we may be, we can never truly understand what something feels like unless we've lived it. Very few people will ever understand what these men are feeling. They barely understand it themselves 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Melina22

[Kerrey92]

Quote

The Aussie mother wanted the celebrity for herself. 

I got the sense that Joy Robson was in love with Michael Jackson herself and moved and took Wade because she thought that the two of them would be together.  I have a feeling in those hours and hours of conversations that she had with Jackson that she felt they had a true connection.  Her giddiness to leave her family and head to LA felt a little more like infatuation on her part.  She stupidly hadn't linked Wade to Michael and was buying what he was selling her to groom her.  

James Safechuck looked bad on the Oprah interview.  It looked like maybe he didn't put any face make up on so he appeared wan and sweaty.  He really does still seem to be struggling quite a bit.  Kudos for him for his reasons for speaking out:  to speak to other victims that they are not alone.  He seemed to be saying to the fans of MJ that he doesn't care if they believe him but he has to speak his truth.

[ruby24]

As for the other victims, I believe firmly that Macaulay Culkin and Brett Barnes were molested as well. I wasn't sure about Culkin, because it just seemed like that would have been SUCH a huge risk at that time for MJ to take, given his own fame, but I forgot that three people who worked at Neverland testified in the 2005 trial to witnessing something happening to him. A cook testified to seeing  Michael groping him in his crotch area, a maid said that she saw him kissing him, with his hands in his pants, and another one said she saw them in bed together. And these were three different areas at Neverland (like Jimmy attested to).

They had also testified to seeing abuse taking place with Wade and Brett Barnes (and one of the maid's sons accused MJ and he paid them off with a 2 million dollar settlement). So yeah, I think they were telling the truth. 

And Culkin's testimony stumbles a bit, as he wavers on admitting he slept in the same bed with Michael a lot there. Given how Wade and Jimmy explained how victims can testify to their abuser's innocence and deny anything happened to them, due to their love and loyalty for him, I can believe that was the case with these other kids too. I really can. And I can believe they are still in denial today. I'm sure that MJ didn't abuse every boy he ever came in contact with, but those two followed the exact same similar pattern and spent SO much time with him alone (all the gifts, trips, hundreds of hours on the phone, etc) that I do believe they were groomed and victimized.

I wonder who the third victim that Dan Reed interviewed was, who didn't want to go on camera. I think Jonathan Spence, the boy that Jimmy replaced, who starred with him in Captain EO and was his "favorite" before he met Jimmy, may have been his first victim. They found a picture of him nude when he was 7-years-old when they raided Neverland, so he still kept mementos of this kid years later. He's never spoken out and defended MJ. It could have been him.

[Cementhead]

1 hour ago, AgentRXS said:

I have to say, as staunch MJ fan and defender, James Safechuck is what sells the documentary for me and changed my mind on Michael. I have many issues with Wade Robson and initially did not want to watch this at first because of him. I was big into NSYNC, BSB, Britney back in the day and saw him as a famewhore trying to latch on to NSYNC and Britney's star power. I remember him selling dance videos and name dropping MJ to gain status as a choreographer. I watched this because I was ready to come here and bash Wade afterwards for being on some BS.

But man, before Safechuck ever said a word, I believed him. His face said it all. That was a face of a man struggling to deal with this shit and I am totally concerned for his well-being. I am not sure he is as mentally prepared for the backlash from the MJ supporters as he thinks he is. What sickened me more was how his mother was so giddy in recounting the early days and how she even recounted the sleepovers with no indication of remorse, even now knowing what was going on.  I can't imagine getting so wrapped in someone's star power that I would think that was ok. I can't imagine how the "inner circle" who sent for these people and then cut off their access when MJ was through with them continued to work for him, knowing exactly what was going on. May everyone involved rot in hell.

Safechuck's story is all the more tragic because he WASN'T an MJ fan; he just happened to be a random kid actor who booked a commercial. I can't imagine how how many times he must've replayed in his mind "What if I had just turned down that commercial? How would things have been different?" He never really benefited from the MJ connection. I damn near threw up at the wedding rings--how sick.

MJ had his mental issues, but he was also crazy like a fox. I have no doubt now that he knew that as black man, he would get no sympathy and swift justice if he was caught (especially the older he got) , and that the surgeries and the skin bleaching were deliberate efforts to make him appear so eccentric that we would buy whatever he was trying to sell and it worked (for the most part). 

I feel sorry for the little boy that MJ was that was exposed to sex too young and endured abuse. I feel sorry that his family didn't care to see that anything was off with him when the pedophilia began and tried to seek treatment for him before he became too big to listen to anyone ( I don't believe this all started post-Thriller). However, he was spent 30 years as an adult that had access to the best of everything and there is no excuse so for not seeking therapy and treatment (I understand that religion might come in to play here, but if he knew it was wrong, he should have been doing everything he could to get rid of those urges). I feel sorry for all his victims that were manipulated not only by him but all the adults in their life that pressured or even forced them to maintain a connection with their predator.  I absolutely believe that both men still have such a love for Michael that it absolutely took him being dead for a significant amount of time to be able to process what they went through. There is no way in hell that I believe that they would have said anything if Michael was still alive and it doesn't have anything to do with money--- you could feel the mixed emotions of love, adoration, resentment and hatred for him in both men.  I can relate to their mixture of emotions on a much smaller scale as someone who was a lifelong fan, who wanted to believe in his innocence.

Excellent post!  Very well explained and thought provoking. 

[qtpye]

34 minutes ago, Kerrey92 said:

I got the sense that Joy Robson was in love with Michael Jackson herself and moved and took Wade because she thought that the two of them would be together.  I have a feeling in those hours and hours of conversations that she had with Jackson that she felt they had a true connection.  Her giddiness to leave her family and head to LA felt a little more like infatuation on her part.  She stupidly hadn't linked Wade to Michael and was buying what he was selling her to groom her.  

James Safechuck looked bad on the Oprah interview.  It looked like maybe he didn't put any face make up on so he appeared wan and sweaty.  He really does still seem to be struggling quite a bit.  Kudos for him for his reasons for speaking out:  to speak to other victims that they are not alone.  He seemed to be saying to the fans of MJ that he doesn't care if they believe him but he has to speak his truth.

I got the same vibe. She sort of believed that she was in love with MJ and he returned the feelings. I think she became obsessed with him and was ready to sacrifice anything to be in his orbit. I noticed when the father (the one who committed suicide) came to visit them in America she was very self-serving. She claimed he commended her for doing the right thing and moving nearer to MJ because it was the right thing for "Wade's Career". I think she justified most of the stuff as a sacrifice "made for Wade" when in truth she was doing it for herself.

I was also flabbergasted when Jimmy was taking advanced math classes and Michael Jackson told him to drop out of school because "he did not need math since MJ would always take care of him" and ....and his parents let him! As someone else pointed out, rightly or wrongly, Wade was able to use his natural talent and MJ connection to launch a successful dance career. I feel like Jimmy probably did not even want to be in show business in the first place and was really in trouble as an adult because he had little education.

Also, I do not believe the house MJ bought Jimmy's parents was ever a "low-interest loan that turned into a gift" though that might be what it was classified in the books. The parents had some idea that they would be rewarded if Jimmy testified and it was their payoff and it was not just unfortunate timing.

[Growsonwalls]

Actually it's one of the abuser's biggest weapons -- to deny education. I've seen it many times with abusive relationships -- I once had a lovely girl (so smart) drop out of school because her boyfriend was always beating her up. She was afraid to come to school with bruises. Finally she just dropped out and he got what he wanted.

Not surprised MJ did the same thing to the boys. Because you know, knowledge is power. 

[msrachelj]

3 hours ago, marie said:

Yeah, this wasn't the Vanguard Award. It wasn't an award at all. The whole situation was weird af. 

https://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/remember-michael-jackson-accepted-made-award-britney-spears-2372005

cuckoo...

9 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I got the same vibe. She sort of believed that she was in love with MJ and he returned the feelings. I think she became obsessed with him and was ready to sacrifice anything to be in his orbit. I noticed when the father (the one who committed suicide) came to visit them in America she was very self-serving. She claimed he commended her for doing the right thing and moving nearer to MJ because it was the right thing for "Wade's Career". I think she justified most of the stuff as a sacrifice "made for Wade" when in truth she was doing it for herself.

I was also flabbergasted when Jimmy was taking advanced math classes and Michael Jackson told him to drop out of school because "he did not need math since MJ would always take care of him" and ....and his parents let him! As someone else pointed out, rightly or wrongly, Wade was able to use his natural talent and MJ connection to launch a successful dance career. I feel like Jimmy probably did not even want to be in show business in the first place and was really in trouble as an adult because he had little education.

Also, I do not believe the house MJ bought Jimmy's parents was ever a "low-interest loan that turned into a gift" though that might be what it was classified in the books. The parents had some idea that they would be rewarded if Jimmy testified and it was their payoff and it was not just unfortunate timing.

she must think all the viewers just fell off the turnip truck. a low interest loan. lady, that was part of your pay off for selling your son to the devil. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by msrachelj
spell

[qtpye]

5 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Actually it's one of the abuser's biggest weapons -- to deny education. I've seen it many times with abusive relationships -- I once had a lovely girl (so smart) drop out of school because her boyfriend was always beating her up. She was afraid to come to school with bruises. Finally she just dropped out and he got what he wanted.

Not surprised MJ did the same thing to the boys. Because you know, knowledge is power. 

Yes, I know this is just another step in making the victim is isolated and more dependant on the abuser. What I thought was crazy is that his parents went along with it, but they went along with a lot of things I thought was crazy.

[msrachelj]

26 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

Excellent post!  Very well explained and thought provoking. 

agree . wade has a $$ career and james, what does james do? he seems to need a lot more help getting through this and i hope he gets it. also, are both men still married? 

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I thought for a bit in the documentary Wade seemed a little more messed up than James and that was probably because James realized what had happened was wrong sooner than Wade admitted it to himself.  But after watching the Oprah special, I agree that James truly seemed broken and overwhelmed while Wade seemed more composed.  I do think that Wade having been in therapy much longer in addition to the fact that his professional life has put him in situations where he's in the spotlight more probably helped him during the interview portion.

Of course it's also always hard to tell--James might seem more fragile on the outside but be working through things better on the inside. Wade might come across as more together on the surface and blow up one day. I read one review I really agreed with where they said how when it starts out James comes across as shy and nervous and Wade is more poised, but by the end they both just look shell-shocked.

3 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I'm not so sure about the theory that he had himself knocked out to prevent himself from molesting his own kids. I mean, if he really believed this was "how they show love," then wouldn't he still apply that philosophy to them? Or was he that self-aware to know that he was hurting all children by doing what he did? 

Pure speculation on my part, but I feel like it it wasn't guilt or temptation so much as despair at having been found out. I think he'd already started to deteriorate before the trial, but it had to have been a huge blow when his career faltered and he was publicly outed, even if he had plenty of fans who didn't believe it. He still had kids coming out and saying what he did, and eventually more would. He was losing control of everything.

Also hard to believe that even he believed his own stories about how this was "beautiful" and about "love" given how he cut the boys off when they got too old to turn him on. Even if he told himself they betrayed him by wanting things from him in return or growing up, it's hard to imagine even he himself didn't see he was just going after his own immediate gratification when he did things like make the kids completely dependent on him and then dumped them.

It really is amazing the way Stephanie Safechuck can still tell stories about the old days like always while her son, despite admitting to how happy a lot of the stuff made him then, can't. It seems like for her everything was good until she learned the truth, which was much later so her earlier behavior isn't colored by shame or nausea the way his is. It's almost like she gets extra satisfaction at having figured it out now.

[cinsbythesea]

That has got to be just about the most intense four hours of documentary that I have ever seen.  So powerful, so heartbreaking, so gut wrenching.   James Safechuck nearly ripped my heart apart - he wears his pain like clothing - his pain is that obvious.   I do hope he is prepared for what's coming - the MJ fans are pretty rabid in their defense of him.   James seems awfully fragile to me - I hope he has his therapist on speed dial.  

The documentary, aside from being so intense, and Oprah's interviews afterward did an excellent job of putting the information forward of grooming of families and victims.   I'm hoping that information will save some who might otherwise not have had a clue as to what's being done and said to them and why.  

The more I think about the documentary the more upsetting it is, MJ's all out efforts to get what and who he wanted, then his just throwing the boys away when they got to big or too old for his perverted desires - leaving them to figure out for themselves they had been replaced and that "always love" was just another lie from MJ's mouth.   So cold, so callous.  

His telling the boys that they would BOTH go to jail for life if anyone found out what they were doing made my blood boil - how terrifying to a 7-year-old to think of spending the rest of his life in jail when his life has just barely begun.  That alone made me despise MJ even more than I thought I could. 

After the trial in which he was found not guilty, I was going to throw away all my MJ CDs.  My husband convinced me to hold off and not overreact in the moment - so he put them all in a safe place for when and if I cooled down.  When MJ died, I went and got them all and brought them back into the house again and the house was once again filled with the music of MJ. 

After watching the documentary - there's no way I can ever, EVER enjoy MJ music again.    This time the CDs are gone for good.  This time my husband didn't try to stop me from reacting.   

May Wade and James, and especially James, find the peace of mind and soul and serenity they so deserve.    

[Scarlett45]

I just wanted to say, I’m glad Wade has a successful career as a choreographer. He was such a talented little boy and is VERY GOOD at what he does as an adult.

Of course a successful career in a field he loves isn’t adequate justice for the abuse he suffered but so what? Should he be denied a great life now because of what MJ did to him? If ANYTHING good came out of his meeting Michael I am glad it was his career. He absolutely deserves it. 

[LillysPad]

Along with others have mentioned so far, what got me was the 6 hour phone calls.  The fax machine going off with love notes and the creepy phone message MJ left Wade once. How many times did he change his voice during that recording? Spooky. 

The parents had the means to stop it all when the boys were young. They were just as star struck. 

[funky-rat]

37 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Actually it's one of the abuser's biggest weapons -- to deny education. I've seen it many times with abusive relationships -- I once had a lovely girl (so smart) drop out of school because her boyfriend was always beating her up. She was afraid to come to school with bruises. Finally she just dropped out and he got what he wanted.

Not surprised MJ did the same thing to the boys. Because you know, knowledge is power. 

More Fundamentalist religions do this too.  I went to school with a girl who was obviously in some sort of more heavy-duty religion.  She never wore pants, had long straight hair, was a little more bashful, etc.  At the end of 10th grade (I would have been not quite 16, she may have been a little older as I was one of the youngest in my class), she told me "goodbye" on the last day of the school year.  She said that her mother needed her to work in the family business (making custom clothing) and she would be homeschooled.  I was sad for her, but wished her well.  She was a sweet girl, and I missed her the next year, as we would often work on projects together.  It wasn't until over 20 years later that I found out from another classmate that her mom married her off.  I didn't believe it, until this classmate told me she was at the wedding, and gave me details that make me believe her.  She said it was at some old small church where they were talking about heavy duty Bible stuff.  She said the groom appeared to be older than her (she wasn't sure how much).  They all acted like this was 100% normal.  She never said anything because she was concerned it would get people in trouble.  The prevailing thought there too seemed to be that education wasn't important, and her family ran a business that she apparently worked in.  Very sad.

[Lady Iris]

I'm just recalling that the end credits of the first ep, I believe, were still photos of MJ's memorabilia that belonged to James Safechuck were being burned. The famed Thriller jacket was in the pyre. I wish I could go back then and tell my tween self to not get to hooked on him, that in the future, he leaves nothing but a legacy of pain and shame.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Lady Iris

[blixie]

Quote

Of course it's also always hard to tell--James might seem more fragile on the outside but be working through things better on the inside. Wade might come across as more together on the surface and blow up one day. I read one review I really agreed with where they said how when it starts out James comes across as shy and nervous and Wade is more poised, but by the end they both just look shell-shocked.

This is true certainly, but Wade seems to have the language to describe his feelings while James struggles with every word. I do think that's down to Robson being in therapy for longer and despite his mom seeming much worse than James mother, I think he has the stronger support system. His sister, his brother, his grandmother his wife. And even his father seemed to love and support him from a great distance but was coping with his own mental health issues. Wade was also actually able to parlay admiration/love for Michael into his lifes work be a creative and financial success., which ironically contributed to his silence. He truly didn't want the seed of so many good things happening for him to turn rotten and destroy everything.

James on the other hand has  his mom and his wife. His mother did say his dad was an even BIGGER MJ stan than herself, and when the 2005 allegations popped up she started to doubt while her husband still supported Jackson. I suspect however angry and conflicted he is about his mom it seems the relationship with his dad is not even existent. 

The Slate piece about the moms at first irritated me because I didn't see them as acting out unconflicted joy recalling their MJ memories. Like there was no acting, I think that shit was REAL which is what makes grooming so scary and powerful. But the critique was that Reed leaving himself out of the narrative not shaping it better allows people to simply dismiss the mothers as "stupid", and absolve the absent form the doc fathers, making it about good and bad motherhood. I didn't feel that but many here are backing up Lili Loofbourow's take.

[dcubed]

16 hours ago, ombelico said:

One of the things I thought was very telling in terms of how Robson and Safechuck describe what they experienced is that they both used the phrases "have sex," "perform sexual acts," "our sexual relationship," and so on, rather than (accurately) saying "Michael raped me." It just shows how hard it has been for them to come to grips with the fact that it what MJ did to them was abuse, assault, and rape. And how hard it is for all survivors of child sexual abuse.

This is very true of anyone that is a survivor of sexual assault with someone they know and love.  Bodies can and often do respond physically even when raped/assaulted.  And they willingly participated- not that they could make a mature, consensual decision at their age.  They continue to say that they loved Michael.  They are conflicted.  They know what happened was wrong because their age and maturity say so.  But they can’t help but look at it all through their young child eyes and those eyes adored him because they didn’t know better or understand.  If they use the correct terms of rape/assault, they’d have to come to grips with the knowledge that MJ didn’t love them, that they weren’t special, that they were just being used.  Beyond the physical piece, that’s a pretty big thing to come to terms with.  And they certainly weren’t feeling loved and cared for by their mothers.

[Lady Iris]

8 minutes ago, dcubed said:

This is very true of anyone that is a survivor of sexual assault with someone they know and love.  Bodies can and often do respond physically even when raped/assaulted.  And they willingly participated- not that they could make a mature, consensual decision at their age.  They continue to say that they loved Michael.  They are conflicted.  They know what happened was wrong because their age and maturity say so.  But they can’t help but look at it all through their young child eyes and those eyes adored him because they didn’t know better or understand.  If they use the correct terms of rape/assault, they’d have to come to grips with the knowledge that MJ didn’t love them, that they weren’t special, that they were just being used.  Beyond the physical piece, that’s a pretty big thing to come to terms with.  And they certainly weren’t feeling loved and cared for by their mothers.

That is some profoundly heartbreaking and astute logic. I'm literally filling up with tears. So frickin' sad for his victims and really anybody who's been so horribly abused this way or the millions of other ways people and children are abused.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Lady Iris

[dcubed]

14 hours ago, Liamsmom617 said:

This has been sickening. I halfway agree with the posters who've said that, in MJ's mind, he wasn't doing anything wrong, but he knew society believed it was wrong and that he therefore had to hide it. And as for discarding one kid for another, from biographies I read about him back in the day, he was similarly ruthless with managers and other people he employed. Plying them w/alcohol, though?  Getting them aroused w/hetero porn (which, yes, sexuality is a continuum, so who knows, maybe that actually turned MJ on too....but I highly doubt it)....That kinda changes the narrative for me. 

If you ever want to feel super sickened, check out NAMBLA, an organization that supports abolishing consent laws for men and boy relationships.  They think that what they have is “special “ and “love”.  I think Michael really thought it was fine and that they rest of the work didn’t get it.

As for hetero-porn, based upon research I did in college, the vast majority of men who have been arrested for sexual abuse of male minors self-identified as heterosexual.  Many live “straight “ lives with wives, girlfriends and children.  Men that are attracted to boys are generally not gay, they are pedophiles.  

Edited March 7, 2019 by dcubed

[lovinbob]

21 minutes ago, dcubed said:

This is very true of anyone that is a survivor of sexual assault with someone they know and love.  Bodies can and often do respond physically even when raped/assaulted.  And they willingly participated- not that they could make a mature, consensual decision at their age.  They continue to say that they loved Michael.  They are conflicted.  They know what happened was wrong because their age and maturity say so.  But they can’t help but look at it all through their young child eyes and those eyes adored him because they didn’t know better or understand.  If they use the correct terms of rape/assault, they’d have to come to grips with the knowledge that MJ didn’t love them, that they weren’t special, that they were just being used.  Beyond the physical piece, that’s a pretty big thing to come to terms with.  And they certainly weren’t feeling loved and cared for by their mothers.

All of this is extremely important. I can imagine how difficult it must have been for them to let go of the "good" they experienced through Michael. They would have to admit that rather than being "chosen" and loved, they were used, they were victims. 

Also Oprah is the first one whom I heard, years ago, talk about seduction and how the experience of being molested isn't necessarily unpleasant in the moment. It is hard to accept as true but it makes all the sense in the world.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, cinsbythesea said:

That has got to be just about the most intense four hours of documentary that I have ever seen.  So powerful, so heartbreaking, so gut wrenching.   James Safechuck nearly ripped my heart apart - he wears his pain like clothing - his pain is that obvious.   I do hope he is prepared for what's coming - the MJ fans are pretty rabid in their defense of him.   James seems awfully fragile to me - I hope he has his therapist on speed dial.  

The documentary, aside from being so intense, and Oprah's interviews afterward did an excellent job of putting the information forward of grooming of families and victims.   I'm hoping that information will save some who might otherwise not have had a clue as to what's being done and said to them and why.  

The more I think about the documentary the more upsetting it is, MJ's all out efforts to get what and who he wanted, then his just throwing the boys away when they got to big or too old for his perverted desires - leaving them to figure out for themselves they had been replaced and that "always love" was just another lie from MJ's mouth.   So cold, so callous.  

His telling the boys that they would BOTH go to jail for life if anyone found out what they were doing made my blood boil - how terrifying to a 7-year-old to think of spending the rest of his life in jail when his life has just barely begun.  That alone made me despise MJ even more than I thought I could. 

After the trial in which he was found not guilty, I was going to throw away all my MJ CDs.  My husband convinced me to hold off and not overreact in the moment - so he put them all in a safe place for when and if I cooled down.  When MJ died, I went and got them all and brought them back into the house again and the house was once again filled with the music of MJ. 

After watching the documentary - there's no way I can ever, EVER enjoy MJ music again.    This time the CDs are gone for good.  This time my husband didn't try to stop me from reacting.   

May Wade and James, and especially James, find the peace of mind and soul and serenity they so deserve.    

Good points.  And, while this may be so totally selfish on my part, in light of the suffering the survivors have endured, I am angry that I can no longer enjoy Jackson music. Two of my favorite songs by him were ABC and Man In The Mirror.  I can't listen to them anymore without an immense sense of disgust with Jackson. I refuse to listen to him anymore and turn it off when it comes on. 

I think there is a misconception in this country that the vast majority of citizens detest and disapprove of child sex abuse.  I don't think the frequency of that abuse reflects that assumption.  I think we have a society of liars and fake people, who pay lip service to abolishing child sex abuse, while secretly supporting or condoning it.  I'm not sure when this reality will be realized.  As more survivors speak out, the more it will be revealed that this abuse is actually practiced by MANY citizens from all walks of life. They lie when they pretend to be outraged by it, but, in reality they are not that opposed.  How do we fight a scourge throughout our nation that is that well liked by so many SECRET admirers?