S04.E11: If Not For Hope

[Nidratime]

Quote

She's desperately casting about for a solution that doesn't immediately result in her being strongarmed into a marriage with any of these dolts who are going to propose after a single evening's dinner.

Yeah, I totally agree with this. Brianna isn't looking at her situation from outside of it and therefore able to make the best, most acceptable decision possible. Like we are, watching a TV show. She's immersed in a pretty bad, pretty extraordinary situation that has overwhelmed her and made her desperate. No matter how she went about it she got the best outcome she could. Lord John understands her and will not pressure her for a rush marriage or a consummation. He gives her time to wait to see if her parents can find Roger.

 

Quote

The engagement cannot last too long- Bree will start to show. 

No doubt people will assume that Lord John and Bree did not wait for the wedding.

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, rxpert14 said:

Curious why Jamie couldn't come to Claire first? "Sassenach, can we talk?" Doesn't sound that hard to me. She didn't just shut out Jamie, but Ian too. If others had been traveling with them, she'd have given them the cold shoulder as well. Jamie and Ian were the only ones around her, and she enclosed herself in her grief and worry for Bree and Roger. If Jamie is this emotionally intelligent progressive man, he could have approached her just like Ian did. Does it ring true for Jamie to shut out Claire? She was in obvious pain too, and assumes he's angry with her over her secret-keeping.  I'll never understand why Jamie's given a pass in not going to Claire, but Claire is criticised for actually going to Jamie.

 

In my realization of both scenarios......

Claire goes to Jamie to resolve the issue first: she didn't go soon enough, she's criticized.

Claire lets Jamie make the first move: Claire is criticized for not making the 1st move.

In this fandom, Claire couldn't win regardless of who makes the 1st move. 

 

I think we'll just have to disagree on this topic. It's all good.

You have a fair point! It would seem we all pick sides, I’ve not read this book yet, but I can’t say that I love this whole misunderstanding plot-ugh!

[Haleth]

I too wondered where Jamie and Clare found that ginormous tent.  All that room and Ian was still left outside.  These scenes kind of dragged for me, but I realize they were necessary to show the passage of time.

Did anyone else notice the sun rise and the choirs of angels singing when Lord John stepped into the room?  (Kidding)  The looks on the other less attractive suitors' faces were precious.  I mean, Billy Boyd is cute as a button, but he's no David Berry.  (It was funny to me that Boyd showed up.  I hadn't read that he was cast and just last week I was saying that Young Ian reminded me of BB.)  Yeah, Bree's blackmail attempt was horrid.  Not only does she tend to blurt out things without thinking them through, but she's also running on pregnancy hormones.  Lucky for her John is a kind hearted man who decided to help her anyway.

 

3 hours ago, Christine said:

I had my first child in 1978.  No smoking or drinking constraints.  I remember seeing someone smoking in their hospital bed with babe in arms.  I have a photo of myself with a glass of wine in hand at 9 months.  She's fine to this day.

When I had my second child in 1992 the new mother in the next bed smoked constantly.  It was horrible.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

The engagement cannot last too long- Bree will start to show. 

She's already showing. Phaedre mentioned that one of the dresses she was making or that she had would help to hide her pregnancy.

[nodorothyparker]

The way women dressed at the time with the stays and all the voluminous layers made it a lot easier to hide or at least not call obvious attention to a pregnancy until fairly late.  But even so, Jocasta is counting on these guys to be able to overlook it when she's dangling Brianna's inheriting River Run and all her considerable assets as part of the package deal.  The point is for Brianna to be married before she's crowning so her child isn't legally considered a bastard.  The kid can always be respectably sent away to school if it's an issue for her husband later.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, nodorothyparker said:

The way women dressed at the time with the stays and all the voluminous layers made it a lot easier to hide or at least not call obvious attention to a pregnancy until fairly late.  But even so, Jocasta is counting on these guys to be able to overlook it when she's dangling Brianna's inheriting River Run and all her considerable assets as part of the package deal.  The point is for Brianna to be married before she's crowning so her child isn't legally considered a bastard.  The kid can always be respectably sent away to school if it's an issue for her husband later.

Yes, I'm aware of that as well. What I should have added to my reply above is the way Brianna kept putting her hand over her belly like I've seen women who are showing, do when getting up or generally moving. Not exactly cupping their belly, but a protective arm over it, if you will. Brianna did that several times, which also led me to think she's showing.

[Nidratime]

If speculation and showing, etc. is a problem. Brianna and Lord John can always leave to travel "to Virginia" or wherever to prepare for the wedding. Lizzie would go along as Brianna's companion.

[AD55]

I'm puzzled that folks think that Bree intended to enter into a fake engagement with Lord John from the get go. If so, why would she care that LJ would expect sex?

I'm equally puzzled that I'm trying to applique logic over the plot holes in the Great Misunderstanding. As someone else pointed out, Jamie could have told his aunt simply that Brianna was married and her husband had been captured by the Mohawks. If Roger went back through the stones, they could say he died.

I have a question for folks who know the books and adaptation better than I do. Does Claire (book or show) know that Lord John is the boy who defended her during the Rising? That was a noble act not at all related to his wanting to do the Frazier family a solid. If she does, that should count in his favor. John is just a decent bloke.

[nodorothyparker]

Oh, she's definitely showing.  You could see it in scenes where she wasn't formally dressed up.  I assume the actress is doing the hand on the belly thing because it's the universally accepted sign of pregnancy, especially in TV, but a lot of women do it as an unconscious or almost instinctual thing.  I know I did it because it felt like my center of gravity was shifting long before I ever got as big as a house and it gave me a feeling of a little extra support.

Acknowledging Roger as Brianna's husband taken by the Mohawk would have the logical way to go, yes, in avoiding so much of this convoluted mess.  Lord John seemed to be sharing that sentiment in asking if Bree was widowed.  It's always aggravated and perplexed me a bit how the book treats a handfast marriage as legit but then not as the plot dictates.  It doesn't help that the book version of Fraser's Ridge and the surrounding area is a lot more developed or seems to have a lot more residents to even know about any of this, where the show would give you the impression that Claire and Jamie have only a couple of barely seen settler neighbors so who would know the difference as to what they tell people?  Nobody knows Bree or Roger.  Tell them her husband is missing or dead and leave it at that.

Yes, Claire knows where she first met John.  John remarks in the book that Claire's were the first women's breasts he'd ever seen.  Her jealousy still is what it is though.  It doesn't have to be rational.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, AD55 said:

Does Claire (book or show) know that Lord John is the boy who defended her during the Rising?

I can't recall from the buik, but Jamie did tell Claire on the show that Lord John is that boy who defended her honor before Culloden.

[LadyAmalthea]

I’m fairly ambivalent to Lord John, although I do find his obsession with Jamie slightly creepy, but dear god Brianna was truly despicable with the blackmail, knowing what would happen if Lord John was outed. Why she couldn’t calmly outline her plan for a marriage of convenience and why it would benefit them both, rather than jumping straight to ‘marry me or else’ was baffling. Well, I suppose not, since it was to further demonstrate why she is apparently like Jamie, hot-headed and saying things she doesn’t mean (although isn’t blackmail usually Claire’s MO?)  Book fidelity isn’t always the best choice. 

The scene with Lizzy was nice, and I’m glad Bree absolved her of any guilt (as she should), although I wish she’d direct some of that understanding towards Jamie. However, I did like the implication that it was more the truly terrible things he said to her that kept the rift between them rather than just the Roger misunderstanding, which is perfectly understandable.  

The Jamie and Claire scene was wonderful - I think this show is at its best when it’s a quiet scene with these two.  

[AD55]

2 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I can't recall from the buik, but Jamie did tell Claire on the show that Lord John is that boy who defended her honor before Culloden.

Thanks!

[Nidratime]

8 minutes ago, AD55 said:

I'm puzzled that folks think that Bree intended to enter into a fake engagement with Lord John from the get go. If so, why would she care that LJ would expect sex?

I'm equally puzzled that I'm trying to applique logic over the plot holes in the Great Misunderstanding. As someone else pointed out, Jamie could have told his aunt simply that Brianna was married and her husband had been captured by the Mohawks. If Roger went back through the stones, they could say he died.

 

That's too damn logical and definitely what I would've done.

 

Quote

I have a question for folks who know the books and adaptation better than I do. Does Claire (book or show) know that Lord John is the boy who defended her during the Rising? That was a noble act not at all related to his wanting to do the Frazier family a solid. If she does, that should count in his favor. John is just a decent bloke.

I wanna say yes.

[rxpert14]

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

I can’t say that I love this whole misunderstanding plot-ugh!

Regarding this point, we most definitely agree! 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, LadyAmalthea said:

I’m glad Bree absolved her of any guilt (as she should), although I wish she’d direct some of that understanding towards Jamie. However, I did like the implication that it was more the truly terrible things he said to her that kept the rift between them rather than just the Roger misunderstanding, which is perfectly understandable.  

One would think I'd be on Brianna's side in this, considering what Jamie said was horrible, no doubt. And it brought back memories of something my dad said about me to my mom not in my presence, but I heard them, nonetheless, and they were beyond hurtful. That said, Brianna's reaction to anyone who wanted to speak highly of Jamie, or his honor, Brianna didn't want to hear any of it. She's determined to hold onto her anger toward him, as if he had been a regularly abusive parent who abused her once too often. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, but this is how it comes across to me, and how I feel about the whole thing. Just as Brianna charging into the cabin last week and accusing Jamie of what he did, as a deliberate act, that Jamie knew who Roger was and that he and Brianna were handfast.

That said, I don't give any figgedity fucks about Brianna and Roger's story. I skimmed past them in the buiks. While I have issues with the style of Gabaldon's writing, I do love both Claire and Jamie and Wee Ian. And it irked me that they had about 6 minutes of screen time, if that. And we're down to the last two episodes.

Lord John may not be over Jamie, but I don't think he's willing to try to move on and

his arrogant, no fucks to give attitude when Jamie returns "from the dead" in

Echo? just irked me to no end. And he doesn't lack for romantic/sexual partners, either.

. And it's not Jamie's fault Lord John can't seem to stop loving him.

[WatchrTina]

Well I woke up thinking about Outlander (as you do) and I find myself sympathizing with how utterly miserable Jamie is by the end of the episode.  

Jamie is an honorable man and he has learned that he punished an innocent man for a crime he did not commit.  That alone would tear at his soul.

But to make matters worse, the man he falsely accused of rape and sold into slavery with the Indians is, in fact, the beloved of his new-found-daughter and thus his mistake may create an irreparable breach between them.

But wait, there's more.

Roger is the ONLY reason that Jamie and Claire have been reunited.  It was Roger who found proof that Jamie didn't die at Culloden.  And it was Roger who found the anachronistic Robert Burns quote in the pamphlet printed by "Alexander Malcolm" -- which told Claire where to go to seek Jamie again.  Jamie owes Roger EVERYTHING.

Poor Jamie.  Poor Roger too but, poor Jamie!

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

She's already showing. Phaedre mentioned that one of the dresses she was making or that she had would help to hide her pregnancy.

 

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

The way women dressed at the time with the stays and all the voluminous layers made it a lot easier to hide or at least not call obvious attention to a pregnancy until fairly late.  But even so, Jocasta is counting on these guys to be able to overlook it when she's dangling Brianna's inheriting River Run and all her considerable assets as part of the package deal.  The point is for Brianna to be married before she's crowning so her child isn't legally considered a bastard.  The kid can always be respectably sent away to school if it's an issue for her husband later.

Yes you both at right- thank you. 

[BigBeagle]

Quote

That said, I don't give any figgedity fucks about Brianna and Roger's story.

Thank you for adding a new phrase to my vocabulary :-)

[AD55]

13 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Roger is the ONLY reason that Jamie and Claire have been reunited.  It was Roger who found proof that Jamie didn't die at Culloden.  And it was Roger who found the anachronistic Robert Burns quote in the pamphlet printed by "Alexander Malcolm" -- which told Claire where to go to seek Jamie again.  Jamie owes Roger EVERYTHING.

 

Does Jamie know this? I found season 3 dull, so I checked out for a good bit of it.

[Cdh20]

1 minute ago, AD55 said:

Does Jamie know this? I found season 3 dull, so I checked out for a good bit of it.

Claire tells Jamie in 306 about the historian who helped her find him, & Jamie referred to Roger as Bree’s historian in a recent show so I think he does know!

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, BigBeagle said:

Thank you for adding a new phrase to my vocabulary :-)

You're welcome!

[AD55]

11 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

Claire tells Jamie in 306 about the historian who helped her find him, & Jamie referred to Roger as Bree’s historian in a recent show so I think he does know!

Thanks!

Further to WatchrTina's comment, I have a question/comment that I think fits better in the speculation thread.

Edited January 14, 2019 by AD55

[CountryGirl]

So very much happened in this episode...but for the sake of brevity, I'll focus on my favorite moments:

Marsali and Fergus (it's about damn time) as I love them both, but I want to see so much of them.

Fergus and their son. 

I love that Murtagh is staying with them.

Marsali's "accidental" banging and clanging.

Marsali teasing him about his boots being on her bed.

I'm thinking Fergus, the streetwise pickpocket, will handle the jailbreak to come just fine.

I loved seeing Pip.

I felt a wee bit sorry for him when he realized he'd lost out to LJG.

Speaking of, while there is no way in gay hell (TM To Wong Foo) LJG would be that reckless, but I always love seeing his pretty, pretty face.

I didn't care for Bree's blackmail of him obviously but I did enjoy Aunt Jocasta realization she'd been "McKenzied."

Oh, but Jamie's haunted face in the tent - he looked like a young boy there. It's amazing how much Sam conveys with his eyes alone.

I seriously can't believe there are only two episodes left.

[Ziggy]

1 hour ago, rxpert14 said:

Curious why Jamie couldn't come to Claire first? "Sassenach, can we talk?" Doesn't sound that hard to me. She didn't just shut out Jamie, but Ian too. If others had been traveling with them, she'd have given them the cold shoulder as well. Jamie and Ian were the only ones around her, and she enclosed herself in her grief and worry for Bree and Roger. If Jamie is this emotionally intelligent progressive man, he could have approached her just like Ian did. Does it ring true for Jamie to shut out Claire? She was in obvious pain too, and assumes he's angry with her over her secret-keeping.  I'll never understand why Jamie's given a pass in not going to Claire, but Claire is criticised for actually going to Jamie.

Exactly.  They were both being standoffish.  They both played a part in the great misunderstanding.  I get why everyone (the characters) is upset, but when the dust settles, it's important to remember that everyone was really trying to protect Bree.

I was impressed with how well Claire explained her emotions to Jamie.  Sometimes he honestly does not realize what it is like to be a parent.  Yes, he loves all his kids (including Fergus and Marsalie), but he's never been a parent in the same way Claire and Jenny and Ian have.  And he doesn't quite get it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I know it wasn't supposed to be funny (or maybe it 'twas), but I loved Jamie's cursing and muttering in Gaelic after he cut himself? Hurt his hand and walked off.

[Scarlett45]

26 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

I was impressed with how well Claire explained her emotions to Jamie.  Sometimes he honestly does not realize what it is like to be a parent.  Yes, he loves all his kids (including Fergus and Marsalie), but he's never been a parent in the same way Claire and Jenny and Ian have.  And he doesn't quite get it.

This is true. No one is blaming Jaime for this- it wasn’t his fault he couldn’t be there for his bio children; and he would’ve loved to not have been in prison to raise Fergus daily (even with his horrid upbringing in the brothel, he was shown much love by Jenny to have turned out so well) but he doesn’t know what it’s like to put in the emotional and physical effort day after day, year after year.

He doesn’t have experience raising children with another adult and how to communicate about their well being- Claire had done that with Frank day in and day out for 18yrs (never mind their interpersonal issues, they were a team when it came to raising Bree). 

 

It takes a lot of emotional intelligence to know what you don’t know. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Claire had done that with Frank day in and day out for 18yrs (never mind their interpersonal issues, they were a team when it came to raising Bree). 

Were they, though? Didn't Claire explain that she didn't get to be there for Brianna when she was growing up, as Frank filled that role, so she was making up for it now? Or something like that? That Brianna was closer to Frank because Claire was in medical school. I'm not blaming Claire here. But when talking with Jamie, I thought that's what she said. I'm going to have to rewatch to see what she said exactly.

[Scarlett45]

8 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Were they, though? Didn't Claire explain that she didn't get to be there for Brianna when she was growing up, as Frank filled that role, so she was making up for it now? Or something like that? That Brianna was closer to Frank because Claire was in medical school. I'm not blaming Claire here. But when talking with Jamie, I thought that's what she said. I'm going to have to rewatch to see what she said exactly.

They were. Frank was more of the primary caregiver because of scheduling (an academic vs medical school/being a surgeon) but they WERE a team, she distinctly comments about how they raised Brianna together. After Frank died of course, Brianna only had her mother, and Claire no longer had to share the role of parent or confidante- so its a big adjustment to have Jaime step in now. 

[Ziggy]

On 1/14/2019 at 11:30 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Were they, though? Didn't Claire explain that she didn't get to be there for Brianna when she was growing up, as Frank filled that role, so she was making up for it now? Or something like that? That Brianna was closer to Frank because Claire was in medical school. I'm not blaming Claire here. But when talking with Jamie, I thought that's what she said. I'm going to have to rewatch to see what she said exactly.

She said that Bree confided in Frank more often.  Frank was around more when Bree was younger, but Claire was still around.  I was a Stay at Home Mom when my kids were little, so I was with them for more hours each day than my husband.  But that didn't mean my husband wasn't around.  He was still a huge part of their lives.

It's not just that, though.  It's also the way a parent worries about a child.  Are they doing well in school, are the making friends, what to do when we know they are hurting and we can't stop that from happening.  Jamie loves all of his kids, but he was never the one who had to worry about them.  Someone else always did that.  He didn't think lying to Ian and Jenny about Young Ian being with him was a big deal, but Claire was horrified that he would lie to Ian and allow him and Jenny to not know where their son was.  Jamie honestly didn't get what he was doing to Young Ian's parents by not telling the that their son was safe.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Ziggy

[iMonrey]

Did the suitors Jocasta had lined up know that Brianna was pregnant? If not, how did she expect them to react once they found out? Also, have we seen Lieutenant Wolff before? I guess we saw him earlier this season? He looked familiar. 

[morgan]

I believe the suitors knew she was pregnant and didn’t care.  They wanted the estate (eventually).  And as a bonus, they know she is fertile.  I’m sure it was put to them that she was handfast and her husband was dead/lost to the Indians.  

Speaking of handfast, I may have misunderstood it in my reading/watching, but I always accepted it to be a highland and or/Scottish thing.  Something from long ago, that wasn’t a common practice in the colonies. 

[Scarlett45]

47 minutes ago, morgan said:

Speaking of handfast, I may have misunderstood it in my reading/watching, but I always accepted it to be a highland and or/Scottish thing.  Something from long ago, that wasn’t a common practice in the colonies. 

It seems the particular term was Scottish but the idea of temporary wedding/betrothal and young people having sex before the “official” marriage is an idea that most cultures would be familiar with. 

 

I too thought the suitors all knew or at least suspected she was pregnant. Those men looked to be “older” they probably already had legitimate heirs but were interested in a young pretty RICH wife, another man’s child as her first born wouldn’t be of concern to them. 

[mrsjoe]

15 hours ago, mary2013 said:

It wasn't one person, it was two. There was also Mr. Cameron.

Besides a lot of River Run visitors being Scottish, I believe we also learn in a later book

Spoiler

Phaedra is actually the late Mr. Cameron’s daughter, which may have led to her interacting a lot more with the family than a standard house slave. Jocasta especially seems like she is a keep your enemies closer kind of person and would have made sure to keep her eye on her growing up.

 

6 hours ago, Nidratime said:

No doubt people will assume that Lord John and Bree did not wait for the wedding.

Well and I believe at that time an engagement was basically as binding as a marriage, so consummation occurring would make them married in most eyes. Roger ending up alive will make her ineligible to have made a contract with Lord John, since the handfast with consummation makes the law see her as married already, thus allowing them both a way out of the engagement. In the books she and Lord John even discuss they don’t think she is even eligible to get married anyway while Roger lives, even if she did cave to her Aunt Jocasta.

 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Did the suitors Jocasta had lined up know that Brianna was pregnant? If not, how did she expect them to react once they found out? Also, have we seen Lieutenant Wolff before? I guess we saw him earlier this season? He looked familiar. 

In the book they all know, and I seem to recall her even emphasizing it to try to get the gay judge's mother to stop looking at her, but it turned out she was misinterpreting the stares and the mother had realized that Bree coming into the marriage pregnant was her only shot at being a grandmother and her son having an heir, since she’s figured out being gay is why her son never married. The book calls it “granny lust”, which I have used in conversation... the other suitors don’t care because they want River Run, but I can’t remember if Jocasta appoints Bree her official heir before or after the dinner.

Edited January 14, 2019 by mrsjoe

[Ziggy]

7 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

You have a fair point! It would seem we all pick sides, I’ve not read this book yet, but I can’t say that I love this whole misunderstanding plot-ugh!

It's worse in the book!

[Cdh20]

4 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Exactly.  They were both being standoffish.  They both played a part in the great misunderstanding.  I get why everyone (the characters) is upset, but when the dust settles, it's important to remember that everyone was really trying to protect Bree.

I was impressed with how well Claire explained her emotions to Jamie.  Sometimes he honestly does not realize what it is like to be a parent.  Yes, he loves all his kids (including Fergus and Marsalie), but he's never been a parent in the same way Claire and Jenny and Ian have.  And he doesn't quite get it.

Part of my reasoning was how Claire was feeling responsible as well, in a different way than Jamie. If Claire hadn't gone back to the 1700's, Bree wouldn't have gone back! And all parents want to do is protect their child (even grown ones) from harm. 

It's also difficult to be your child's confidante & not tell your husband, if it involves them!

Question for all you book readers-how long did that rift last? days? weeks? months? I forget that parallel stories aren't always moving at the same rate in the episodes.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Cdh20

[Squirrely]

1 hour ago, mrsjoe said:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

In the book they all know, and I seem to recall her even emphasizing it to try to get the gay judge's mother to stop looking at her, but it turned out she was misinterpreting the stares and the mother had realized that Bree coming into the marriage pregnant was her only shot at being a grandmother and her son having an heir, since she’s figured out being gay is why her son never married. The book calls it “granny lust”, which I have used in conversation... the other suitors don’t care because they want River Run, but I can’t remember if Jocasta appoints Bree her official heir before or after the dinner.

Yep. IIRC, in the book, Bree opts to not wear her stays and comes down to dinner obviously pregnant. She thinks she's accomplished her goal of turning off the suitors, especially the mother, but Lord John disabused her of that notion with the "granny lust" comment. 

[toolazy]

2 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Part of my reasoning was how Claire was feeling responsible as well, in a different way than Jamie. If Claire hadn't gone back to the 1700's, Bree wouldn't have gone back! And all parents want to do is protect their child (even grown ones) from harm. 

It's also difficult to be your child's confidante & not tell your husband, if it involves them!

Question for all you book readers-how long did that rift last? days? weeks? months? I forget that parallel stories aren't always moving at the same rate in the episodes.

I want to say that it was about a month or six weeks.  It was actually an improbably long time, given their relationship and close quarters. 

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, toolazy said:

I want to say that it was about a month or six weeks.  It was actually an improbably long time, given their relationship and close quarters. 

Right-sleeping in a tent every night, I'd have expected them cuddled up & talking on night #1. However that tent was super huge.

Thanks for answering!

Edited January 15, 2019 by Cdh20
adding a thought

[Pingaponga]

I'm a little worried about what is going to be cut/changed in order to finish this off in two weeks' time.  I'm assuming Jamie/Claire/Ian and the Mohawks will be next week, and will be the focus of most of the episode.  But then there's still a heck of a lot that needs to happen in the final episode.  And a lot of time that will have to pass in, essentially, a one-hour episode, and I'm afraid it is going to feel very choppy.  Unless they cut stuff out.

I absolutely love Lord John.  Aunt Jocasta is awesome.  And Brianna is growing on me.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Did the suitors Jocasta had lined up know that Brianna was pregnant? If not, how did she expect them to react once they found out? Also, have we seen Lieutenant Wolff before? I guess we saw him earlier this season? He looked familiar. 

Yes, he was involved in "Do No Harm".

[Token]

There's only two episodes left?  How is that possible?  I feel like nothing has really happened so far this season, other than the rape.  I'm not minimising that, it was horrible, but surely that's not all that happened in the book.  It's been a while since I read it, but I feel like more than that happened.  I was shocked to see that this is episode 11... I'd be hard pressed to tell you what happened this season, other than Roger being taken and Brianna getting raped.

[WatchrTina]

9 hours ago, Token said:

I'd be hard pressed to tell you what happened this season, other than Roger being taken and Brianna getting raped.

Well . . . both Roger & Brianna travelled back in time and Brianna met her uncle (and aunt in the book) and her cousins.  Jamie and Claire met the Governor and Jocasta -- and figured out that the Governor's offer of land was the better option than letting Jocasta rope Jamie into being heir to a plantation based on slave labor.  They built a home on the Ridge and made friends with the local Indians . . . then mourned the deaths of neighbors, both native American and white resulting from measles, superstition-driven-murder, and revenge killing.  Jamie was reunited with Murtagh (hooray!) and then Murtagh's secret life as a regulator led to Jamie inadvertently starting a rumor that George Washington might be in league with the regulators.  Claire did emergency surgery on a hernia in the lobby of a theater.  And last but not least, Lord John Grey came to visit with Jamie's son in tow.

But yeah . . . how can there only be two episodes left?

Edited January 15, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Bree had a desire of suitors in this episode.

(Downton Abbey reference)

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 1/13/2019 at 6:02 PM, WatchrTina said:

I could not tell who it was that Brianna had drawn that caused Lizzy to have a negative reaction.  Was it Stephen Bonnet?  If so, how would Lizzy know what he looked like?  She never saw him.  Or was it supposed to be various versions of Roger?  If it was, I couldn’t tell.

The other clunky dialog was in the scene between Brianna & Jocasta when Bree is being uncooperative about being fitted for a dress.  Jocasta says a few lines about her sister Ellen and then suddenly Bree says “You’re right, conversation is good for a worried mind” and then compliantly goes off to be fitted for a new dress.   Wait what? That was such an odd moment.  I wonder if a bunch of dialog was edited out of the final cut.

 

It was various indistinct nightmarish faces, revealing her state of mind. Of course a simple 18th century peasant who says her prayers every day wouldn't get that one of the ways artists process trauma is by producing morbid art.

Bree started to feel a bit better after sharing a conversation with her Aunt Jocasta, so she decided showing herself and meeting people at the dinner could be a good idea, after all.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[ruby24]

I do like episodes where we see Jamie, Fergus AND John. All such gorgeous men, it makes me drool, lol.

All these Bree-heavy episodes are really trying my patience though. God, it would have been really helpful if they had cast someone who could actually carry entire episodes. This is a struggle. Every scene really depends on her scene partner to carry it through.

[Pestilentia]

Well, I thought Pip/Gemstone Suitor looked so much like Young Ian it made me sit up and say WTF.  

Their mouths both wrap around that Scottish accent the very same way.  

And Lord John has more sense than to put himself in a position like that- they've impugned his character by writing that scene in such a coarse manner.   

Brianna/Sophie sure looked truly pregnant and bloaty in the sketching Phaedra scene.

[Ziggy]

57 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

Well, I thought Pip/Gemstone Suitor looked so much like Young Ian it made me sit up and say WTF. 

John Bell (Young Ian) was in the second two Hobbit movies, but he didn't play a Hobbit.  Wonder if he ever had a scene with his "Uncle Dougal." :-)

[Atlanta]

Can Pip give me that sapphire? I love the blue stone.

Oh, Bree. Getting in touch with your inner MacKenzie.

Does David Berry not remind you of a young John Taylor (Duran Duran)?

[caws 727]

46 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Does David Berry not remind you of a young John Taylor (Duran Duran)?

I kept thinking, he would make a superb Vampire Lestat if they ever did a remake...

[FnkyChkn34]

On 1/13/2019 at 8:26 PM, AD55 said:

Except that she wouldn't be able to marry Roger--that would be a problem. Divorce was virtually unheard of, and annulments for nonconsummation were not easy to secure (even supposing Lord John were willing to cop to that). 

But isn't John willing to wait until the last minute and only marry her if Roger doesn't return before the kid is born? The other men would have expected a wedding ASAP.  

Maybe I'm not entirely following the chain of comments, but she wouldn't need to marry and then divorce John. He understands and will only marry her if Roger is dead or gone for good.