Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[TV Diva Queen]

50 minutes ago, AriAu said:

I like the non-linear approach and am enjoying the series, but this episode, for everything that was going on, was somehow boring....not sure how or why, but it was.

They could not possibly made Fosse seem like a bigger asshole than they did in this episode......and I guess that was pretty much true to form!

BUT, the eye opening part was how well Michelle Williams dances....and how poorly Sam Rockwell dances. She's not Gwen Verdon...but almost no one is, but she really, really moves well....and he does not.

The link to the Mambo dance showing the real Fosse and real Verdon was great. Thanks Electric Boogaloo

By the way, in this episode, Michelle Williams slipped a little into the Gwen Verdon accent and sing song phrasing that Verdon had, especially later in life (like when she was Thomas Magnum's mother).

She played Magnum’s mom?  [off to the internet for pics]

[justmehere]

I'm loving this show. The structure doesn't bother me at all. Using different timelines is common enough so as not to be a problem. And I believe someone mentioned previously that the title cards come from the book this is based on. The inserts of Bob tap dancing when he was younger look to me like he's mentally tap dancing at that moment, trying to cope with or figure out something. It's representative. --I don't know the exact timelines, but I'm not having trouble following.

As for Bob himself -- he was a cheater and was blunt about it in All That Jazz. He couldn't manage to control himself for Gwen, who meant the world to him. Today, I suppose he'd be classified as a sex addict. 

The one drawback for me is the lesser dancing talent of the leads, which limits what they can show of the creative process. But, matching them in that area was going to be tough without hiring Broadway performers for those roles as well.

Gwen was so fluid:

Bob choreographed one of his own dances in Kiss Me Kate, (1953, his first movie), that stands out startlingly from what's around it and also shows so much of his signature style. The video below is just his bit (with Carol Haney). There are also videos of the full sequence, if anyone wants to see the contrast with the rest, choreographed by Hermes Pan.

[atlantaloves]

Michelle is totally killing this in her role, but I am sorry folks, Sam is mis-cast. He's just horrible, but other than that, I love this series, ha! 

[patty1h]

This show is not dynamic at all when it's focusing on Fosse - he is is black vacuum of who cares. Whining and blackmailing and cheating and threatening suicide. I know he was a womanizer but had no idea he was so emotionally damaged ("I'll kill myself!") but the actor isn't making me feel anything for him, not even pity.

I'm like the effort that Michelle Williams is putting into her characterization.  I just wish there was more spark in her scenes with Rockwell - it's like the energy get sucked out.

[AriAu]

Quote

Michelle is totally killing this in her role, but I am sorry folks, Sam is mis-cast. He's just horrible, but other than that, I love this series, ha! 

I haven't figured out if Sam Rockwell is doing a bad job or a great job portraying a selfish, childish, deeply flawed (albeit talented) person. What he and/or the writers have NOT done well is get us to care about him or even show us why Gwen Verdon does.

On the other hand, he can't dance......and as I said above, Michelle Williams, really, really can.

[atlantaloves]

Ari: you are right on point.....you nailed it, he can not dance, and in this instance, he can't act either. 😕

[JeanneH]

4 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I loved the movie Damn Yankees when I was a kid. Seeing the original musical being "made" was very interesting.

On the other hand, every scene of little Bobby tap dancing (especially when they just show the feet) could be cut from both episodes, but particularly from this one.  If the book is not like this, it's just self-indulgent by the director. I HATE IT.

Little Bobby tap dancing was, in the book, Bob dwelling on tap dancing as a kid in burlesque and strip clubs and stuff the people there would do to mess with his head and generally screw him up. It's pretty much the same shorthand used in ATJ to say Bob's issues started in childhood (and it wasn't much of a childhood).

[Door County Cherry]

I think the idea of non-linear storytelling worked in this episode because it framed how Bob and Gwen began with the situation they're in now.  Both Infidelity.   I thought Michelle's performance was very good.  She's hurt but she's also not a fool.  She knows how they began.  She knows how Bob began with his previous wife.  She knows that cheating isn't a new thing for Bob.  What she has to decide is how much longer she can live with it. Susan Misner was also good at playing the resignation.

But while the idea of non-linear storytelling/framing might have been a good idea in theory, I still take issue with the execution.  The director's flare is Kail (the director) playing with what he can do in the television format.  It reminds me of someone learning Powerpoint for the fist time and adding "cool" transitions that actually look a bit of  a mess when the presentation is given.  Or a website that adds just another color to the code so instead of clean, it starts to look messy. 

[pasdetrois]

The womanizing and general misery are ho-hum, especially if one has seen ATJ.

I've always assumed that the primary attraction between the two was that they needed each other to achieve professional acclaim in that moment in time. It would be hard to walk away from that - their partnership was one for the ages and they both knew it.

When I saw "Lola" it was a revelation to my small-town dance class kid self; I'd never been exposed to anything remotely like it. At the time I didn't realize why Joe was clutching Lola's clothes so tightly in his lap.

Took my little brother to see Dancin' in the 70s and it scared him half to death. We still laugh about it (all that sexuality on the stage).

[Snow Apple]

I'm learning more from this thread than from the show. I had no idea what was the wife's illness and why she couldn't walk.

I still like it enough to continue watching, especially for the dancing. If nothing else, it made me interested enough to go down the rabbit holes of Wikipedia and YouTube.

[JasmineFlower]

I really enjoyed this episode and thought it was compelling and pulled you in from the start in a way that the premiere didn't. I think the premiere had more dynamic music and dancing and the better, more exciting second half for sure. The Liza performance with Mein Herr and all of that especially pulled me in.

But from a strictly storytelling angle, this was more what I was hoping for from this show. I think it may have hit me differently than others. My takeaway was not, Bob Fosse is a jackass that cheats as often as he smokes. If you know almost anything about him, you already knew that. But Gwen? In the premiere she was portrayed as almost the angelic supportive suffering wife that was getting cheated on by this dog of a husband of hers that uses her talent to get him out of a rut. But this episode, we see the greater picture. Gwen is a cheater herself, in a relationship when she takes up with Bob, knows he's married, and sticks with the affair even when she knows of the wife's illness. Encourages him to leave his sick wife for her. I like that depth, it's more like the Walk the Line June Carter Cash portrayal than what you typically heard about. Gwen is not some unwilling victim in this relationship, she went into it with her eyes wide open. Sure, it may have gone worse than she intended long term and that doesn't mean Bob gets a pass, but expecting a cheater that you cheated with not to cheat on you is always super special. His second wife Joan, found that out the hard way as well.

So, I thought this did a very good job of setting up the history of their relationship. I liked that we went far enough back to see that Gwen was the star, not Bob, when they met. That the connection they have working together was there almost from the start and helps to explain things a bit more. I also thought the non-linear worked well in this context since we're seeing the different stages in their tumultuous relationship. I'm definitely all in on this show now.

Also, I really enjoy Susan Misner as an actress, she's been great in many things now and she was well cast as Joan here. But, um, she's in this basically musical and we're not going to see her dance? Say it ain't so. Hopefully she's back dancing in some capacity in a future episode. Not that I didn't enjoy Michelle in the Damn Yankees scenes, but Susan is a kickass dancer capable of putting what we've seen so far to shame.

[TimWil]

The emotional scenes at the beach were actually the first ones filmed-they were shot on Halloween and the Rockaways stood in for Majorca. It makes one admire Rockwell and Williams’ performances even more because on that very first day they were required to deliver character details and to bring the complex relationship of those people so fully to life at a crucial stage.

I worked as a background actor in Episode 1 in the 1971 restaurant scene with Fosse and Cy Feuer, the one where Fosse is trying to land the job as director of the film of Cabaret. My four seconds of glory is in the very beginning in the foreground of The Players Club (it was actually shot at the National Arts Club in Gramercy Park-on Election Day). They used a crane for that opening shot as well as the pan to young Fosse tapping away at that armed forces hospital in the Pacific. Amazing. Quite a crew. I was very fortunate to get on at least one day on this one.

[ebk57]

2 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Took my little brother to see Dancin' in the 70s and it scared him half to death. We still laugh about it (all that sexuality on the stage).

It's funny - I just watched the clip of "Lola" posted earlier and when Gwen was waving the tights around near the end and slapping the floor with them, it reminded me of Ann Reinking at the end of "Sing,Sing,Sing" in Dancin' throwing her long, straight hair around and slapping the floor with it.  Because of Dancin' I have a lifelong love of the Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall concert.

I worked at the National Theatre in DC for a good long time and Dancin' was one of my favorite shows to pass through (twice!).  The only reason I wasn't there for opening night of Sweet Charity was that it was Rosh Hashanah and I was off.  Probably for the best. 

I'm loving this show. 

[Kaiju Ballet]

On 4/14/2019 at 1:48 AM, spaceghostess said:

I figured Rockwell and Williams would be just fine, and they are. For anyone who hasn't seen the jaw-dropping spectacle of Fosse and Verdon dancing together, here's a primo example:

Who's Got the Pain?

When my kids were babies and got cranky, I used to play this and sing along to snap them out of it. Worked every time (for all of us.)

12 hours ago, AriAu said:

BUT, the eye opening part was how well Michelle Williams dances....and how poorly Sam Rockwell dances. She's not Gwen Verdon...but almost no one is, but she really, really moves well....and he does not.

The link to the Mambo dance showing the real Fosse and real Verdon was great. Thanks Electric Boogaloo

By the way, in this episode, Michelle Williams slipped a little into the Gwen Verdon accent and sing song phrasing that Verdon had

Thank you so much, @spaceghostess for that link. I hadn't seen it before, and when they did that very number this past episode, I was ecstatic.

And ITA about Michelle Williams. That was incredible. I kept looking to see if they did a Flashdance thing, but unless it was supersophisticated CGI, that seemed to be her channeling Gwen Verdon's stage presence!

I did like the fact that Gwen was the one shown to be initially resistant to it, because Fosse was starting to seem like maybe he really didn't have any talent and it was all Gwen. They do need to show him making bold--and successful--creative choices at least some of the time, in between all the time-jumping.

Yeah, and what up with the time-jumping. What's annoying to me is that Gwen and "Bobby" are interacting with people who are well-known. But we're made to figure out who they are, and the time jumping doesn't help. When the woman that Gwen was talking to first mentioned her husband's name, I thought of who it was--but only because he would be a good answer for a crossword puzzle. It makes me wonder what else I've missed because I'm not well versed in the era. I've drawn a comparison to Mad Men before--when they've mentioned real people the writers/directors always provided enough context so you knew right away why they were important to the story.

But before I get really pissed, Show distracts me with some beautiful art direction or a shiny dance number. So I'm in for now. There's a part of me that wishes they'd just go all the way that they seem to want, and turn it into something like Legion, where I don't know what's going on half the time, but I don't mind because it's all so stylized and gorgeous.

While I'm eager to see the next episode,

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm also left wondering what's left to cover in this story. Are there eight parts to this? It doesn't seem like there's enough story here to fill eight episodes.

I'm worried this means they'll be doing more time jumping, to pad the little story that they do have.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Kaiju Ballet
I forgot how amazeballs Michelle Williams was.

[lavenderblue]

Huh! I only knew Susan Misner from The Americans, but @JasmineFlower inspired me to look up her bio and turns out one of her on-screen dancing credits is, incredibly appropriately, "Cell Block Tango" in the 2002 Chicago, where she plays Liz AKA "Pop":

Edited April 18, 2019 by lavenderblue

[pasdetrois]

I meant to say in my earlier post that I loved seeing Lola being born in that rehearsal hall.

Also, the big rehearsal scene, which Joan joins, was marvelous. Before Joan arrived, Gwen was dancing joyously for Bob - you could see it in her face and body. MW was fab.

Lola's lacy tights precluded this:

http://actorz.ru/anita-morris_87.html  (RIP Anita Morris)

[Door County Cherry]

Susan Misner is also one of the choreographers of the show so it would be nice to see her dance.

[voiceover]

I see I'm going to have to throw in for Sam Rockwell here.  Tough crowd!  Michelle certainly has the showier part (& I love her in it), but Sam's all slouchy, slow-burning fuse.  He doesn't sugarcoat Fosse's narcissistic personality, but he's drawing me in instead of putting me off.

My favorite singular moment?  During the brainstorm for "Who's Got the Pain?"  He's seducing Gwen with his thinking-out-loud description of the Artist's Life: flay yourself, turn it all inside-out, and be stunned when the audience laughs & applauds your agony on display.

Something pinged in that moment, but it took me a while to make the connection.  During a recent doc on Richard Pryor, there's a sequence when Live at the Sunset Strip gets put together.  The last, brilliant part of that concert film was Pryor describing how his drug habit & crack pipe led to the explosion that set him on fire.

And the audience laughs through most of it.  Because it's hilarious.  

A young comic has a TH moment here, where he describes Richard's private shocked hurt that people *found his pain funny.

And this is exactly the sort of thing that Sam-as-Bob describes to Michelle-as-Gwen in that scene.  He's pitch perfect.

[msrachelj]

On 4/17/2019 at 2:39 PM, justmehere said:

I'm loving this show. The structure doesn't bother me at all. Using different timelines is common enough so as not to be a problem. And I believe someone mentioned previously that the title cards come from the book this is based on. The inserts of Bob tap dancing when he was younger look to me like he's mentally tap dancing at that moment, trying to cope with or figure out something. It's representative. --I don't know the exact timelines, but I'm not having trouble following.

As for Bob himself -- he was a cheater and was blunt about it in All That Jazz. He couldn't manage to control himself for Gwen, who meant the world to him. Today, I suppose he'd be classified as a sex addict. 

The one drawback for me is the lesser dancing talent of the leads, which limits what they can show of the creative process. But, matching them in that area was going to be tough without hiring Broadway performers for those roles as well.

Gwen was so fluid:

Bob choreographed one of his own dances in Kiss Me Kate, (1953, his first movie), that stands out startlingly from what's around it and also shows so much of his signature style. The video below is just his bit (with Carol Haney). There are also videos of the full sequence, if anyone wants to see the contrast with the rest, choreographed by Hermes Pan.

wow, what a body. quite a difference from the actress portraying her. miscast. there are surely other dancer/actresses that fit the bill better. she's ok but not great.

[msrachelj]

On 4/17/2019 at 4:16 AM, ruby24 said:

I had to look up what exactly Joan McCracken's "illness" was, only to find out that it was Type 1 diabetes.

Boy, they really talked around that, didn't they? You wouldn't have a clue based on the vague way they alluded to some mysterious sickness that causes her an inability to walk at random times? What?

I'm sorry, I'm a Type 1 diabetic myself and I cannot stand it when it's obvious that something has no idea how to portray symptoms of this condition or even what they look like. I know it was a lot harder to treat back then (especially Type 1, it would have been awful), but insulin existed, so she must have been using that at least. With no ability to check blood sugar levels though (or account for food with insulin probably), most likely she would have had fainting spells due to sudden lows- but symptoms of highs are constant thirst and urination, which is less visible.

I'm not sure what that incident was supposed to be portraying in the rehearsal room, where just all of a sudden she's crying and can't walk. It reminded me of that part in Steel Magnolias, where Julia Roberts is perfectly fine and then all of a sudden has a fit and is screaming and throwing things at people until her mom feeds her orange juice against her will. 

Umm, what? Do people really not have any clue what low blood sugar looks like? If you don't faint straight out, you feel faint but you know that you need to eat or drink something (with sugar in it) fast. You're not mentally incapacitated. How do people not know this still?

and she peed herself. i, thank god, know not much about diabetes. would that be a correct showing?  my guess was she had ms or something similar. 

[raven]

6 hours ago, voiceover said:

My favorite singular moment?  During the brainstorm for "Who's Got the Pain?"  He's seducing Gwen with his thinking-out-loud description of the Artist's Life: flay yourself, turn it all inside-out, and be stunned when the audience laughs & applauds your agony on display.

I liked this as well because we have so far seen little of why Gwen would be attracted to him.  For me personally, I need more of that.  Sam Rockwell can act and I think he and Michelle Williams have good chemistry.   When they first meet and she's doing the moves for "Lola" and scratches her leg with her foot he asks why Lola would do that and Gwen replies "she had an itch" and smiles; he kind of smiles back and you can see the collaboration being born.   I can see why Bob is fascinated by Gwen, I just need to see more of what drew her to and kept her with him.  Then again, my perceptions could be colored because of what we know about him, and how over I am in general with the poor, tortured genius cliche. 

6 hours ago, voiceover said:

A young comic has a TH moment here, where he describes Richard's private shocked hurt that people *found his pain funny.

I didn't see the documentary you're talking about here, so I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe the majority of the people found Richard's ability to laugh at his own pain relatable and thus funny?  Maybe not specifically what Richard did with the crack pipe, but the ability to get survive it and laugh afterward. 

In the scene, Bob tells Gwen that people won't be listening to the words, they will be watching her.   "If she is smiling, why shouldn't I" that kind of thing.

[kieyra]

I like non-linear. It’s just being done badly (weirdly?) here.

The title cards have arbitrary references (for example, as a non theater person I have no idea when Damn Yankees occurred in the context of their relationship?), and Gwen looks much the same in every scene. The only cue I have for most of what’s going on is how bald Bob is or isn’t. 

Almost all of my knowledge of this topic comes from being a kid at the time All That Jazz was being played non-stop on home cable movie channels. So I need a little more than they’re giving me to work with.

(I mostly only checked this out because Aya Cash is in it. I was vaguely able to infer that she’s Neil Simon’s wife. Or that’s my guess.)

[Totale]

On 4/17/2019 at 9:36 PM, JasmineFlower said:

Also, I really enjoy Susan Misner as an actress, she's been great in many things now and she was well cast as Joan here. But, um, she's in this basically musical and we're not going to see her dance? Say it ain't so.

I only knew her from "The Americans", too - but I have looked up some of Joan McCracken's appearances on YT, and maybe she'll recreate one of those in a flashback.  The real McCracken presents as shorter and more powerfully built than Misner, though.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S1.E3: Me and My Baby

As Gwen and Bob pursue separate projects, Gwen thinks back to the beginning of her career, and the circumstances that led her here.

Promo:

Original air date: 4/23/29

[JeanneH]

Strrange, my program guide on Dish has this as Episode *4* and the next episode's number as "N/A"

Edited April 24, 2019 by JeanneH

[ElectricBoogaloo]

12 minutes ago, JeanneH said:

Strrange, my program guide on Dish has this as Episode *4* and the next episode's number as "N/A"

The second episode aired last week so someone at Dish must have made an error. Probably not as big an error as airing the Game of Thrones premiere four hours early last week but still! I know this show has been non-linear in its storytelling but hopefully not so much that they’re airing episodes out of order. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[TimWil]

Man, Children Children sounds like it was a frigging awful play.

That very long shot of Gwen going back onstage after her tremendous ovation during Can Can was quite stunning. Williams just continues knocking it out of the park.

[nilyank]

17 minutes ago, TimWil said:

Man, Children Children sounds like it was a frigging awful play.

Well I check online and it apparently opened and closed on the same day on Broadway.

[Dandesun]

It sounds like 'Children Children' was what 'Springtime for Hitler' was trying to be.

[Door County Cherry]

It's little surprise that the best episode so far has been with a lot of Gwen.  And the change in director was obvious.  There was still some playing with time but nothing as crazy or with as many flourishes as the first two episodes. 

I remember seeing Gwen and Chita Rivera on a talk show (via YouTube) and Gwen mentioned Children Children when the host asked if either had been in a play that closed after one day. 

[voiceover]

Ahhhh...editing!!  The most perfect combination of left brain/right brain; of math and art!  It's terrifying, soul-sucking agony.  It's blinding sexual satisfaction.  

I say this for those who wondered at Bob's "Wilkommen" dance number fantasy at the anticipation of the editing booth, contrasted with his "Dorothy in the eye of the twister" nightmare after he'd seen the butchered, slapped-together version of his baby.  Uhhhhhhhhhh...accurate reax, both.

I must needs mull more, but for personal reasons I had the strongest ping with the Cabaret section.  And his face when Gwen walked into the booth was Everything.  She felt it, too -- how gratifying it is to be that adored by someone you adore.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside look: Bob Fosse

[Jordan Baker]

I loved this episode. Michelle Williams is doing the most amazing work.

The notes-from-the-director scene was just agonizing, and, yes, the play itself sounds awful.

I like Sam Rockwell's performance, too, but his dancing, especially in the pre-editing-room sequence, isn't exactly Fosse-esque. That's a nit, though. 

When the episode ended, I actually thought "No!" I wanted more.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Slate's S1.E3 fact vs fiction

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Bob: When's the last time you acted?
Gwen: An hour ago when you walked in the door. How'd I do?
Bob: That's very funny. Acting in a straight play, it's not like a musical.
Gwen: I know. It's easier. I only have to do one thing right instead of three.

[luna1122]

The idea that Sam Rockwell can't act or sing is....killing me, y'all. He's an amazing actor,  and a fun dancer...he always dances! Nope, he's probably not Fosse level, but I love his moves. I don't think he's trying to make us LIKE Bob Fosse....who was a douchebag and imminently unlikable, as a person.

And really, Verdon doesn't come off a lot better...she was also a cheater, and the other woman, blatantly, in the face of a woman she supposedly admired. And then made the classic other woman mistake of thinking he wouldn't do the same thing to her.

But I don't have to admire the characters to enjoy watching them. I like the non-linear style too.

I love Susan Misner too and wish she had the opportunity to dance here. I really knew nothing about Joan McCracken except that she had once been married to Jack Dunphy, who was, after their marriage ended, Truman Capote's long term partner. I didn't know that she was one of the women, supposedly, that Capote based Holly Golightly upon. I wish Misner had more of a chance to show THAT Joan, the free spirited, light hearted one, instead of mostly just the put upon, cheated on wife.

[Snow Apple]

Wow. The background story in the linked article about Can-Can was even more interesting than what little was shown in this episode. I wouldn't be surprised if that story inspired every showbiz movie with characters of a star and an underdog.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Snow Apple

[AriAu]

Quote

And his face when Gwen walked into the booth was Everything.  She felt it, too -- how gratifying it is to be that adored by someone you adore.

His face was great, but I dont get adoration out of it....he is selfish jerk who was relieved that his muse appeared to help him find his way. He knew he was at his best with her guidance/assurance/attention, but I dont think he adored her....i think he needed her and was glad she bailed him out! 

And, IMO he really can;t dance and it was almost painful to watch him try, compared to Fosse or otherwise. 

[TheOtherOne]

Vulture notes in their recap:

"Peter Shelley’s 2015 biography Gwen Verdon: A Life on Stage and Screen, meanwhile, notes that the couple were married “exactly nine months” before James Jr. was born, which doesn’t quite fit the definition of a shotgun marriage, by the usual parameters of human gestation. Let me clear here: I’m not saying anything in this episode (including Henaghan’s implied sexual assault) is a case of questionable dramatic license on the Fosse/Verdon writers’ part. Nicole Fosse is a consultant on this show, and it’s possible Gwen told her daughter more about her first marriage than she ever told any reporter. I’m only saying that even theater geeks who know a lot about Fosse and Verdon are likely to be startled by what this episode depicts."

From Vanity Fair's story:
 

Quote

“Nicole filled in a little of this [backstory] for us,” said Cahn. “Kind of starting with the basic story that, when Gwen was about 16 years old, one of her parents’ friends got her pregnant and then her parents told her to marry him.” This account is depicted in flashback, presenting, for the first time, the circumstances in which Verdon met her first husband. “She met him at her parents’ home,” continued Cahn. “He was a personal friend of the family. He was a theater critic and a little bit of a talent manager and then, shortly after, he was a married man with a serious drinking problem who couldn’t do his job. His very young wife, who had stopped dancing and literally threw away her dancing shoes to be a mother and a wife, was writing his columns for him.”

When Verdon did later speak about that first marriage, she did so obliquely. “I thought being married meant doing the laundry,” she told The New York Times in 1981. “I mean, what do you know when you’re that age?” She added of her husband: “He was a drinker. So he would wind up in Kansas City and not remember how he got there . . . My son was born in March and on New Years Eve, I said ‘That’s it,’ and I went home to Mama. I took my child, my dog and my cats and left.”

Verdon may have kept details of the marriage secret to protect her son, but that doesn’t make them any less infuriating. The idea of Verdon’s parents forcing their teenage daughter to marry the family friend who impregnated her? “That is just a jaw-dropper,” said Cahn, still incredulous over the revelation. “It’s like, ‘What?!’ Why hasn’t there been a feature film about [Verdon] every 10 years? That story is crazy. He was her parents’ friend!”

When asked how Nicole came to this realization about her mother’s first marriage, Cahn said, “It’s tricky talking to someone about their life and their parents’ life, and how she kind of put pieces together as she grew older. I have actually had a similar experience—my parents both passed away, and in the last few years, I have kind of been putting stories together that I heard as a child. Looking at them from the perspective of an adult, thinking, Oh, that’s what that meant. That’s what that was a euphemism for . . .”

“I think there were a lot of pieces that she started to piece together as she looked back at this as an adult, and as a parent,” explained Cahn. “Little scraps that she heard from her parents or their friends over the years and kind of put together into a more complete picture of what happened in her mother’s young life.”

It sounds like this is coming from Nicole Fosse, who inferred it rather than have it be anything she was actually told by Gwen herself.

Edited April 24, 2019 by TheOtherOne

[TheOtherOne]

For more details on Children! Children!, it was adapted to a movie in 1986 starring Christian Slater titled Twisted. Plot description on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twisted_(1986_film)

The full movie is on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVlc87outaw

[mightysparrow]

My heart broke for Gwen last night.  And then I thought about how many talented young women who must have suffered the same fate back in those days.  And still do in these days.  I really think that this show is handling the reality of the sexual abuse young people in the performing arts endure very well.  We don't need to be hit over the head.  Trust the actors to tell the story.

I'm ride-or-die Fosse.  I'll sit through all of Kiss Me Kate just to watch his section of 'From This Moment On'.  People always assume his influence is just in musical theatre but 'Lenny' and 'Star 80' are overlooked masterpieces, in my opinion.  I recently re-watched his cameo in 'The Little Prince' and he's amazing.  By that time he rarely danced but it's all there.  Every thing that made Fosse !FOSSE! is all there and it's incredible.

I'm also ride or die Sam Rockwell, so when I heard that he was going to play Fosse I was all in.  Ironically enough, I haven't seen 'Three Billboards...'.  I just can't bring myself to endure yet ANOTHER apologia for virulent racists.  Rockwell is living up to every one of my expectations.  He used to be a break dancer and he often throws in a little lick in his performances.  I like the fact that he's showing that Fosse was a good but not GREAT dancer and how much that ate at him.

I'm not a Michelle Williams fan but I have to give it up to her here.  She's got Gwen Verdon down and her performance is the foundation of the series.  Williams and Rockwell have amazing chemistry and it's a privilege to watch two actors work like this.  My only quibble with Williams is that she's not a dancer.  She can't show us WHY Gwen was such a huge star and why her performances are STILL the gold standard.  But she does give us Gwen's 'spunk' and sweetness along with the steel and hurt underneath.

It was agony watching 'THE' Gwen Verdon having to audition for that piss-ant director.  Anyone who has ever been on stage knows the humiliation and vulnerability an actor experiences, especially an actor who KNOWS she/he is light years better than the material their working with.  The actor is put in the position of making a silk purse out of a rotting pig's ear. If it fails, it's on you.  If it works, the directer gets the credit.

Gwen is approaching a 'certain age'.  She knows her peak dancing days are numbered.  How does she keep working, stay ON TOP and make enough money to feed her daughter and maintain their lifestyle?  She knows she can't count on Bob.  That 'angel boy' monologue was so painful to watch.  No wonder she ran back to Bob and 'Cabaret'.  That's the world she understands.

I'm loving this series.  I can't help wondering if eight episodes might be dragging it out too long, but I won't complain if the quality of the performances stays at this level.

Edited to add:  I like the non-linear approach.  I like that they expect the audience to do some work for themselves, figure stuff out and PAY ATTENTION. 

The card that counted down a couple thousand days to McCraken's death was to show that she wasn't REALLY at death's door when she got carried out of that rehearsal.  She lived for quite some time AFTER Bob left her.  She just didn't have a problem using her illness, that very few people (including doctors) knew much about at the time, to manipulate and hang on to her husband.

Edited April 24, 2019 by mightysparrow

[Snow Apple]

I agree Gwen auditioning for that terrible play was heartbreaking, and the way she was treated at the read through. Doesn't matter how big a star you were. Acting is so fickle.

She must have felt she was at the end of her career. You just want to tell her it will be ok career wise and just hang on because Chicago is coming.

[mightysparrow]

On 4/21/2019 at 3:25 AM, voiceover said:

I see I'm going to have to throw in for Sam Rockwell here.  Tough crowd!  Michelle certainly has the showier part (& I love her in it), but Sam's all slouchy, slow-burning fuse.  He doesn't sugarcoat Fosse's narcissistic personality, but he's drawing me in instead of putting me off.

My favorite singular moment?  During the brainstorm for "Who's Got the Pain?"  He's seducing Gwen with his thinking-out-loud description of the Artist's Life: flay yourself, turn it all inside-out, and be stunned when the audience laughs & applauds your agony on display.

Something pinged in that moment, but it took me a while to make the connection.  During a recent doc on Richard Pryor, there's a sequence when Live at the Sunset Strip gets put together.  The last, brilliant part of that concert film was Pryor describing how his drug habit & crack pipe led to the explosion that set him on fire.

And the audience laughs through most of it.  Because it's hilarious.  

A young comic has a TH moment here, where he describes Richard's private shocked hurt that people *found his pain funny.

And this is exactly the sort of thing that Sam-as-Bob describes to Michelle-as-Gwen in that scene.  He's pitch perfect.

So well said.  That was the key for me.   That explained what made Fosse Fosse.  It's why so many messed up people become performers.  The audience see 'tits and teeth' but the person on stage is screaming.  And at the end, they get to take a bow.

Michelle Williams is definitely the showier performance but Rockwell is amazing, as usual.  I love watching him because he gives so much as an actor.  There are always so many layers in his performances and it's so much fun to peel them all back to see what's underneath. 

[mightysparrow]

3 hours ago, luna1122 said:

The idea that Sam Rockwell can't act or sing is....killing me, y'all. He's an amazing actor,  and a fun dancer...he always dances! Nope, he's probably not Fosse level, but I love his moves. I don't think he's trying to make us LIKE Bob Fosse....who was a douchebag and imminently unlikable, as a person.

And really, Verdon doesn't come off a lot better...she was also a cheater, and the other woman, blatantly, in the face of a woman she supposedly admired. And then made the classic other woman mistake of thinking he wouldn't do the same thing to her.

But I don't have to admire the characters to enjoy watching them. I like the non-linear style too.

I love Susan Misner too and wish she had the opportunity to dance here. I really knew nothing about Joan McCracken except that she had once been married to Jack Dunphy, who was, after their marriage ended, Truman Capote's long term partner. I didn't know that she was one of the women, supposedly, that Capote based Holly Golightly upon. I wish Misner had more of a chance to show THAT Joan, the free spirited, light hearted one, instead of mostly just the put upon, cheated on wife.

Very true.  Check him out in Iron Man.  There's a scene where his character comes out dancing to 'Pick Up The Pieces' and you would think he was in the Soul Train lineup!

Fosse wasn't a nice man and he did terrible things, especially to the women who loved him.   But his hunger and his pain and his TALENT is what made so many people love him, right or wrong.  And Rockwell has that down to a 'T'. 

In life, it's rarely black and white.  Joan McCraken plays the wronged wife with Gwen Verdon but she used her power as a star to take a chorus girl's husband away.  The only innocent in this world is Nicole.

[luna1122]

52 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Very true.  Check him out in Iron Man.  There's a scene where his character comes out dancing to 'Pick Up The Pieces' and you would think he was in the Soul Train lineup!

Fosse wasn't a nice man and he did terrible things, especially to the women who loved him.   But his hunger and his pain and his TALENT is what made so many people love him, right or wrong.  And Rockwell has that down to a 'T'. 

In life, it's rarely black and white.  Joan McCraken plays the wronged wife with Gwen Verdon but she used her power as a star to take a chorus girl's husband away.  The only innocent in this world is Nicole.

Indeed, if you google "Sam Rockwell dancing' you will get literally hundreds of hits and vids from various other films and tv appearances. In "Mr. Right', he is literally the Dancing Hitman.  All tastes are subjective, of course, and I don't know how technically good he is,  but I (and apparently a lot of others) love to watch him.

True that McCracken was no more innocent than Verdon when it came to screwing around with Fosse behind--well, right in front of--his then-wife's back.

[iMonrey]

Definitely my favorite episode so far, no surprise it focused more on Gwen than Bob. Although I'm a bit troubled that the gist of it may have been fictionalized - i.e. the scenario as it played out between a young Gwen and a sexual abuser she was forced to marry. That's pretty dark and a bit jarring to think it might not have actually happened that way. I suppose it was statutory rape regardless of the circumstances. Still, the most moving episode so far, thanks largely to Michelle Williams.

Quote

 Ironically enough, I haven't seen 'Three Billboards...'.  I just can't bring myself to endure yet ANOTHER apologia for virulent racists. 

It's not that.

[mightysparrow]

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

It's not that.

It's not JUST that.  But I'm tired of the idea that all Black folks need to do is suffer ENOUGH and even the most violent racist will change their minds.

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

It's not JUST that.  But I'm tired of the idea that all Black folks need to do is suffer ENOUGH and even the most violent racist will change their minds.

That's not really what it's about either. Rockwell plays an all-around terrible person with a reputation for virulent racism, and eventually he winds up on the path to growing a moral compass, but his turnaround has nothing to do with racial issues.

I didn't enjoy the third episode as much as other people did. It was an interesting look at Verdon's past, but honestly the crying baby sound didn't work for me dramatically at all.

And it doesn't have much to say about Fosse beyond him being a terrible father and a terrible husband.

Even if Fosse's personality had no redeeming qualities, they could at least show us what was so special about his artistic decisions. He took a huge risk with Cabaret, changing it drastically from the stage version. It would be very interesting to explore why he made those changes, and how his collaborators felt about it. But mostly they're reminding us over and over again that he was awful to work with, and we get the point already. We really do.

[TV Diva Queen]

4 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Very true.  Check him out in Iron Man.  There's a scene where his character comes out dancing to 'Pick Up The Pieces' and you would think he was in the Soul Train lineup!

Fosse wasn't a nice man and he did terrible things, especially to the women who loved him.   But his hunger and his pain and his TALENT is what made so many people love him, right or wrong.  And Rockwell has that down to a 'T'. 

In life, it's rarely black and white.  Joan McCraken plays the wronged wife with Gwen Verdon but she used her power as a star to take a chorus girl's husband away.  The only innocent in this world is Nicole.

Is he the guy who makes the war machines?  Omg. No idea that was him (if it is him, lol)

[Dandesun]

15 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

Is he the guy who makes the war machines?  Omg. No idea that was him (if it is him, lol)

Rockwell plays Justin Hammer in Iron Man 2. He does contribute to War Machine (played by Don Cheadle) but he's not Tony Stark. But at the Expo in that movie, he does come out dancing which is fun.

He also reprises the Justin Hammer role in the Marvel Short that goes with Thor: The Dark World called 'All Hail the King' but it's a very very small role. Although memorable.