S02.E01: Ja'loja

[Raja]

55 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Ah. Must have missed a press release, or misread one. Just amplifies my original point- that this was too slow for a premiere.

I agree, especially in a special time slot with the unpredictable end of a game and post game show.. Hard to find for regular show fans because of an off hour time  but set up to try to get to the football fans before turning to another station in the middle of their shows 

[SmithW6079]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

OTOH, Kelly was more insufferable the second time through, when I realized that her refusal to listen to Cassius's request for rational discussion dovetails neatly with her stupid hypothetical she gives to Ed, about how he should always choose Bortus to die instead of her because she's "the woman you love".  So she never wants any man to think rationally, just be blindly loyal and/or a yes-man to silently "support" her as she vents.

Yes, exactly. 

[Jacks-Son]

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

On a second watch, it's clever to see the Duncan family's racism being subtly cued by James using the "Bortus ate my homework" excuse.  Yes, James, Moclans are just animals.  You little shit.

That might have been the writers' intentions but I didn't get that impression.  Not to say there was no racism implied in the comment about "Bortus ate my homework"; I just did not think it was meant that way. I think it was just a reference to the known fact that Moclans can digest anything. NOT that they're animals, just that they are a race that could, idiotically, eat the asshole's homework.  That doesn't stop him from being a non-racist "little shit" in my eyes.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Only having to urinate once a year?  Man, I would kill to have that 'problem' most of the time!  Although, having a ceremonial audience while I did it would not be the slightest bit appealing or welcome....

I must watch too many 'wait for the shocking reveal!' shows because I am immediately expecting the new cartographer - or Kelly's new guy - to be either evil or a plant to catch Ed out and get his captaincy taken away.

Speaking of all that, I knew the WT/WT of Ed & Kelly would always be there, but adding in extras to create two different, yet confluenced, triangles??  Ick.

I must congratulate the costuming department for this show, as the non-uniform attire that Kelly and Alara usually find themselves in is quite flattering, the dress that Alara wore for her date, as an example.

"Always add one more zipper than you're comfortable with."  Dating Made Easy, by John LaMarr.

Ed:  Of course, Bortus.  You may relieve yourself.
Gordon:  *snort*
Bortus:  *looks at Gordon*
Gordon:  Oh, don't mind him.  He's just taking the piss out of ya.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I must watch too many 'wait for the shocking reveal!' shows because I am immediately expecting . . . Kelly's new guy - to be . . . evil

I can't shake the feeling that Cassius is secretly evil, but he's probably just a good guy.

[marinw]

9 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

Not to say there was no racism implied in the comment about "Bortus ate my homework"; I just did not think it was meant that way. I think it was just a reference to the known fact that Moclans can digest anything

Whatever the case, I thought Cassius's discipline for the boy's statement was perfect.

Edited January 2, 2019 by marinw

[Chicago Redshirt]

21 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

On a second watch, it's clever to see the Duncan family's racism being subtly cued by James using the "Bortus ate my homework" excuse.  Yes, James, Moclans are just animals.  You little shit.

The Duncans' willingness to believe Marcus was the culprit and that he should thus be exiled from the class with their precious James read to me as racism. But that is looking at this with 21st century eyes.

I don't think we have been explicitly told that racism is a thing of the past in the Union, but that's the impression that I have.  (Or at least, intrahuman racism. Clearly, Xelayans have issues with humans and Isaac's people have issues with biological lifeforms, etc.)

[neuromom]

When Ed asked Cassius “do you love her?” And he said “yes, very much”, it was right after they were talking about Cassius’ failed marriage, so for some reason I thought maybe it was a slip and Cassius was saying that he still loved his ex wife very much, like Ed loves Kelly.

Claire still bothers me. Didn’t she choose to have her kids without a father? I seem to remember she is an INTENTIONAL single parent. I’m a single parent of two kids, and it’s not easy. And I intended to have two parents (my ex left) and my teen son is having “dad issues”. I figured it was only a matter of time before Claire’s kids had some similar issues. Her “I didn’t think it would be so hard” just had me shaking my head. This is the life SHE chose. It is nice that Isaac can provide some support for the kids though.

I did feel for Claire though when the other parents immediately came to the defense of their “precious” child. I’ve seen that a lot in my line of work. 

And as mentioned above, why did no one ask the third kid about what transpired?

[iMonrey]

I'm late to this party, but I thought this was an especially weak episode to launch the second season, and one unlikely to hook new viewers, as I imagine was the intention by airing it on Sunday. The b-plot with Claire's kid was absurdly stupid. We already live in an age where surveillance is everywhere, right now. It's impossible to think that on a space ship, in the 25th century, there wouldn't be video evidence the teacher could easily show the kid's parents to prove how crappy his behavior is in the classroom. I also find it highly unbelievable the kid could hack into the system to fix his grades and neither the teacher nor his parents would ever know. There shouldn't have been any need for Isaac to "brilliantly" think of any of this. This seems like the kind of sitcom storyline you'd find on The Brady Bunch back in the 70s.

Finally, if James is able to hack into the school system and into the replicator to make Vodka, why are he and his friends sitting in the Holodeck room without any holo programs running? 

The Kelly and Ed thing is tedious, as others have mentioned, although I did crack up at the "drive by," but otherwise the show was light on laughs and plot.

[Yeah No]

53 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The Duncans' willingness to believe Marcus was the culprit and that he should thus be exiled from the class with their precious James read to me as racism. But that is looking at this with 21st century eyes.

I don't think we have been explicitly told that racism is a thing of the past in the Union, but that's the impression that I have.  (Or at least, intrahuman racism. Clearly, Xelayans have issues with humans and Isaac's people have issues with biological lifeforms, etc.)

Wow, I didn't see racism in their behavior at all.  Then again I generally expect more from 24th or 25th century humans given what we have seen of them on TV in the past on one other TV show that shall remain nameless.  But there was more to it than that too.

I just saw them as typical of parents that cannot imagine their child doing any wrong.  Like if they admit their child might have done something bad it would reflect poorly on them, and narcissistic people like that can't have that.  Which is probably one reason why the kid has grown up to be a little shit, too.  To me that's how their behavior rang, judging from what I've seen of it in my own past with friends' parents, etc. 

[jay741982]

On 12/31/2018 at 8:33 AM, SmithW6079 said:

Maybe women should control their emotions so two people can have a rational discussion.

Yeah cause Men are always rational and never got hot headed or anything🙄.

[Jack Kerouac]

On 1/1/2019 at 6:21 PM, Halting Hex said:

On a second watch, it's clever to see the Duncan family's racism being subtly cued by James using the "Bortus ate my homework" excuse.  Yes, James, Moclans are just animals.  You little shit.

I don't know. Moclans can ACTUALLY eat homework. I would think it would be a running source of amusement (and certainly is for the 'evolved' crew).

[iMonrey]

Quote

I just saw them as typical of parents that cannot imagine their child doing any wrong.  Like if they admit their child might have done something bad it would reflect poorly on them, and narcissistic people like that can't have that. 

Presumably the kid's been a little shit for awhile now, which is why this type of storyline doesn't really work in a futuristic setting like this. Someone could show them surveillance evidence of his behavior at any given point. No need to "convince" his parents - just pull up the records and show him mouthing off. 

Also? Marcus did a complete 180 in attitude at the end, and it was inexplicable. Did he decide to turn on James once they were caught and James blamed him? Suddenly everything is a-okay between him and his mom? That ending was a little too pat.

[Jacks-Son]

Points well made, iMonrey, and it has now become semi-thread official, James is no longer "James", his new name is now "Little Shit".  Although, while the technology is certainly there to provide surveillance for the entire ship, it can cross over into the creepy zone when you start recording social conversations.

I can't deny Marcus' behavior was odd at the end, but Hell, his behavior was odd in the beginning.  Dude, the "little shit" told you your mom was a pain in the ass, WHILE SHE WAS STANDING RIGHT THERE!!!!.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Jacks-Son

[ganesh]

I would wonder if there's still privacy laws so maybe the kids can't be recorded in class because they're minors or something. 

[DoctorK]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Someone could show them surveillance evidence of his behavior at any given point. No need to "convince" his parents - just pull up the records and show him mouthing off. 

There have been more than enough situations these days where security camera footage and body cams have clearly documented behavior but parents and friends still insist the bad actor did nothing wrong. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

[ganesh]

Crew quarters likely wouldn't have cameras in them, and that's when the little shit called Claire a pain in the ass. 

1 hour ago, Jacks-Son said:

I can't deny Marcus' behavior was odd at the end, but Hell, his behavior was odd in the beginning.

I thought he was being a typical pissy teen. Plus, they're trapped on a space ship so I can get that he's going to act up. 

[legaleagle53]

27 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Crew quarters likely wouldn't have cameras in them, and that's when the little shit called Claire a pain in the ass. 

I thought he was being a typical pissy teen. Plus, they're trapped on a space ship so I can get that he's going to act up. 

Indeed.  Claire should have gotten a clue when she and Marcus had an argument last year that had him telling her that she sucked, to which her response was "I'm your mother -- it's my job!"

Congratulations, Claire.  You're now the mother of a teenage boy.  Welcome to insanity -- but remember, someday you'll get the last laugh when HE starts complaining about HIS kids!

[Jacks-Son]

59 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I thought he was being a typical pissy teen. Plus, they're trapped on a space ship so I can get that he's going to act up. 

Sorry to disagree but, acting up?  My two-year old grandson acts up. The Little Shit is too old to be "acting up".  I don't get the urge to pull a Cassius and apologize for the little shit's behavior.  He told his friend that his mother, who was in the room with them, was a pain in the ass.  That's not acting up, that's fucking beyond normal teenage behavior. One doesn't even say that about their own mother (at least not out loud to others) let alone your friend's mother.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Jacks-Son

[ganesh]

I meant Claire's son.

Edited January 3, 2019 by ganesh

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Wow, I didn't see racism in their behavior at all.  Then again I generally expect more from 24th or 25th century humans given what we have seen of them on TV in the past on one other TV show that shall remain nameless.  But there was more to it than that too.

I just saw them as typical of parents that cannot imagine their child doing any wrong.  Like if they admit their child might have done something bad it would reflect poorly on them, and narcissistic people like that can't have that.  Which is probably one reason why the kid has grown up to be a little shit, too.  To me that's how their behavior rang, judging from what I've seen of it in my own past with friends' parents, etc. 

People's mileage will vary. But....

- When in trouble, blame the black guy. Which James did both with Marcus and Bortus. (Yes, Bortus is a Moclan, but as far as I think we've seen, Moclans have been all played by black actors.)

- Take a condescending, patronizing tone with people who are different from you. Which is what James's parents were all about.

- Refuse to consider any facts that might contradict your preset notions as to what might have happened. 

- Insist on a solution that lays all the consequences on the black kid and none on your own. 

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

People's mileage will vary. But....

- When in trouble, blame the black guy. Which James did both with Marcus and Bortus. (Yes, Bortus is a Moclan, but as far as I think we've seen, Moclans have been all played by black actors.)

- Take a condescending, patronizing tone with people who are different from you. Which is what James's parents were all about.

- Refuse to consider any facts that might contradict your preset notions as to what might have happened. 

- Insist on a solution that lays all the consequences on the black kid and none on your own. 

I get it, but all those things were done to me when I was a kid by so-called "little shits" and their narcissistic parents, and it was condescending for sure, but I am sure it was most definitely not based on race even though I was ethnically different from the vast majority of my neighbors.  In my case it was about the fact that my mother worked full time in the 1960s so the other mothers had the attitude that she must be a "poor mother".  My grandmother looked after me but the other mothers and their kids didn't know her as she wasn't part of their little social group.  My mother wasn't around to witness whatever happened and stick up for me, so I became the easy scapegoat for things that were not my fault.  In this episode the parents' condescending tone could have equally been about her being a single parent and nothing to do with race at all.  Or lies their son told them about the kid that made him look bad.  But YMMV.  I'd rather continue believing that that many centuries into the future there will be no such racial prejudice.  It's one of the reasons I loved the other show so much.

[Emma9]

On 12/31/2018 at 9:07 AM, kariyaki said:

I think it's more important than that, because I can't see anybody approving someone's request to take the entire ship to go home for a birthday party.

Yeah, the worldbuilding of that didn't really jibe for me. I know, I know what they were going for, but Pon Farr is once every seven years, and the actual ceremony from Amok Time only takes place once per couple.

Think of how many birthdays there are among your family and close friends. Can you picture schlepping out to a sacred cliffside ceremony that often? Is Bortus also going to request that they divert when it's his husband's turn? Are there any other Moclans on the Orville besides his family?

 

On 12/31/2018 at 11:11 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Getting upset with someone for being not upset is a thing that happens, but it's not a good look from Kelly.

That was my main problem with the scene. I agree that 'calm down' isn't a helpful thing to say, but is demanding that the other party 'rile up' that much different? I could be misremembering the scene, but he seemed okay with hearing out her rant until she gave him a hard time for not reacting to it correctly.

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Emma9 said:

On 12/31/2018 at 9:07 AM, kariyaki said:

I think it's more important than that, because I can't see anybody approving someone's request to take the entire ship to go home for a birthday party.

Yeah, the worldbuilding of that didn't really jibe for me. I know, I know what they were going for, but Pon Farr is once every seven years, and the actual ceremony from Amok Time only takes place once per couple.

Think of how many birthdays there are among your family and close friends. Can you picture schlepping out to a sacred cliffside ceremony that often? Is Bortus also going to request that they divert when it's his husband's turn? Are there any other Moclans on the Orville besides his family?

I think the show is going for the absurd/comedic angle with this.  There's nothing serious about it at all.  McFarland is satirizing and mocking another TV show again big time, which is one reason I'm not troubling myself to figure out the rationale for it in any serious way.  The fact that he would take the entire ship home for something as ridiculous as a peeing ceremony is only done to make it even more absurd and funny, not because anyone would actually DO that in any kind of real life or because it's to be taken seriously like any of the other similar plot lines in other show franchises.

Thanks for using the word "jibe" correctly in a sentence, BTW.  These days that's all too rare.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Yeah No

[Gummo]

I love this show and don't care who knows it! I forgive most of its transgressions and am just glad it's back!

I thought this was a great 'welcome back' episode -- even on an exploratory spaceship there's downtime and it gives us a chance to get re-introduced to the characters. I always enjoyed when one of the Trek series took a step back for an episode to let the characters breathe, and I enjoyed it here too. I like that Orville explores the mundane aspects  of a community-in-space -- parent-teacher conferences, bored teens, muddied relationships. Having families in space will necessarily make for a messier environment than a strictly military setup, and with McFarland at the helm, Orville gleefully goes for it -- annual urination, anyone? (ok, I guess I'm 12 too, because the whole concept cracked me up, both on its own and as a parody of classic Trek tropes).

Strangely, I think McFarland's real affection for his creation will make the parody elements harder to sustain as time goes on -- already the giant personal suites for each officer are looking ridiculous, even though we know they're a parody of TNG's equally ridiculous officer suites. And this is a medium-sized ship! What are the flagships like?? If the show was simply a satire, it wouldn't matter, but Orville's characters have sucked us in and we want it to be "real" (for a given TV sense of "real") in the sense that we want to suspend our disbelief and lose ourselves in it. Parody works against that, it keeps us distant, out of the story. This tension - between parody and 'reality' - will only grow as the show goes on. 

Well, so far they've more or less managed it, though it has led to some clunky, abrupt changes in tone, even within the same episode. 

[benteen]

Fun, low-key episode.  I enjoyed the debut.

Though good lord, Ed is a stalker who won't leave Kelly alone and Kelly isn't particularly likeable on her end either.

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 2:12 AM, shapeshifter said:

As The Orville heads towards Moclus for Bortus' special once-a-year ceremony, Ed discovers Kelly has moved on and has started dating. Meanwhile, Gordon asks for John's help in getting game, and Claire turns to Isaac for parenting advice.

This ep wasn't bad, but I found myself watching the clock b/c I was getting impatient for the payoff with Bortus' annual urination ceremony. TBH, I was expecting the participants to get doused by or having to imbibe Bortus' urine at the end and everyone making excuses for being unable to participate next year.

 

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 10:35 PM, ganesh said:

I'm fascinated as to why Jason Alexander is the bartender. 

Ahh, so that WAS him!

 

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 10:36 PM, phalange said:

Bortus and Klyden's kid Topa seems to have aged quite a bit, even though in Orville time it's probably been less than a year since he was born. Moclans clearly grow much faster than humans.

[...]

I have a lot of questions about how John dated an alien with two heads who didn't know he was dating both of them.

I suspect Topa's changes are a result of SORAS.

John dated an alien with two heads, neither of which knew he was dating both? Damn, he's a smooth operator! LOL

 

16 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm late to this party, but I thought this was an especially weak episode to launch the second season, and one unlikely to hook new viewers, as I imagine was the intention by airing it on Sunday. The b-plot with Claire's kid was absurdly stupid. We already live in an age where surveillance is everywhere, right now. It's impossible to think that on a space ship, in the 25th century, there wouldn't be video evidence the teacher could easily show the kid's parents to prove how crappy his behavior is in the classroom.

That is how I expected the meeting to be resolved, with Cassius giving the brat enough rope to hang himself and then playing the class footage.

[Emma9]

1 hour ago, Gummo said:

If the show was simply a satire, it wouldn't matter, but Orville's characters have sucked us in and we want it to be "real" (for a given TV sense of "real") in the sense that we want to suspend our disbelief and lose ourselves in it. Parody works against that, it keeps us distant, out of the story. This tension - between parody and 'reality' - will only grow as the show goes on.

This, basically. They can do absurdity within the context of a sensible framework, and for me that rings better than weirdness for weirdness's sake.

The Alara/holodeck episode, for example. Within the simulation, there were clowns and crocodiles running about and bottomless vortexes opening up, but the characters were reacting to these things in a reasonable manner - trying to verify what they were seeing via sensors, pin down whether something could be affecting their perception, etc. That kind of behavior took what could have been a completely ridiculous scenario and made it my favorite episode of this show by far.

(Or, also in that one, how Alara's parents talked about humans and the Union - that perspective made a lot of things within the show make more sense to me, because this isn't the widely-respected and powerful Federation we're dealing with, we've got a culture that's more newly spacegoing and still bumbling around.)

Something can be funny and/or crude to viewers and still work within the story. This didn't, to me.

[Ottis]

On 1/1/2019 at 11:03 PM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I must watch too many 'wait for the shocking reveal!' shows because I am immediately expecting the new cartographer - or Kelly's new guy - to be either evil or a plant to catch Ed out and get his captaincy taken away.

Whoa. You are thinking way too hard for Orville!

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

In this episode the parents' condescending tone could have equally been about her being a single parent and nothing to do with race at all.  Or lies their son told them about the kid that made him look bad.

You and your rational observations! Stop that, you!

1 hour ago, Gummo said:

I thought this was a great 'welcome back' episode -- even on an exploratory spaceship there's downtime and it gives us a chance to get re-introduced to the characters. I always enjoyed when one of the Trek series took a step back for an episode to let the characters breathe, and I enjoyed it here too.

Exactly why I think it was a poor choice for a "welcome back" episode. Not a single plot interested me, or made me wonder what might happen next. Story telling 101: Hook your audience. Give us a season-setting incident/situation, and plots B and C can be about relationships. Like I said, this would have been a great VD episode,  given it was ALL about relationships except for the peeing thing. Then again, for some ...

13 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Also? Marcus did a complete 180 in attitude at the end, and it was inexplicable. Did he decide to turn on James once they were caught and James blamed him? Suddenly everything is a-okay between him and his mom? That ending was a little too pat.

ITA. I suppose you could wank that, off screen, Marcus realized what sort of trouble he was in due to Little Shit, and decided it wasn't so cool to be bad. But you have to do that on your own, because the show didn't help any.

[Pike Ludwell]

I'm seeing complaints that there was not enough dramatic plot to this episode. To me this show isn't about science fictioney dramatic, exciting plots. It's about the characters and the interplay with each other and technology, and the satire of it all. I see satire all over the place on this show , some of which is sort of subtle, and am constantly laughing out loud.  This was one of my favorite episodes of the whole series. You could tell the writer(s) had time to think through a lot of great ideas.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Pat Hoolihan

[Jacks-Son]

8 hours ago, Ubiquitous said:

On 12/30/2018 at 7:35 PM, ganesh said:

I'm fascinated as to why Jason Alexander is the bartender. 

Ahh, so that WAS him!

Its my understanding that Jason Alexander,  himself a ST fan,  begged Todd McFarlane if he could be given a role in the show.  McFarlane gave him the role of Olik,  the bartender.  I believe it's a recurring role.  As usual for ST-like series,  the bartender is a recurring character. 

[HouseofBeck]

On 12/30/2018 at 9:44 PM, ganesh said:

I actually thought he was going to say "I can't go with all you looking at me."

I did, too!

On 1/1/2019 at 5:21 PM, Halting Hex said:

Kelly was more insufferable the second time through, when I realized that her refusal to listen to Cassius's request for rational discussion dovetails neatly with her stupid hypothetical she gives to Ed, about how he should always choose Bortus to die instead of her because she's "the woman you love".  So she never wants any man to think rationally, just be blindly loyal and/or a yes-man to silently "support" her as she vents.

FFS, just get a dog, then.  The Duncans will suggest you name it "Bortus".

Kelly was pointing out how Ed _would_ always choose her because he's emotionally compromised. I've been wondering if there aren't regulations against Captain/First Officer, or indeed Captain/any shipmate, precisely because of this. In fact, Kelly bringing up how emotionally compromised Ed is with the question of choice seemed like an attempt to get him to rationally see that their relationship isn't going to work. Instead, Ed kept asking if she loved him, which I agree (with Kelly) isn't even the point. If she said yes, it would just cause him to hound her even more. I don't blame her for refusing to answer.

But yeah, she's the one not controlling her emotions this ep. /sarcasm /eyeroll

I do think Ed took a shuttle out to think by himself and realized just that second too late that he had drifted past her windows. He did a piss-poor job of explaining that when confronted, though.  So I also think Kelly was entitled to have her own boyfriend let her be upset for a hot second and validate her feelings of being spied on, both because Ed couldn't seem to defend himself at all and because being spied on sucks.

But as we've seen even here in this thread, that's reality (so far) with differing approaches and allowances. I like how the show drives into things like this even if they're uncomfortable.

For me, the holo dating scene bugged because if someone is telling you to leave them alone, just leave them alone. Don't keep persisting. Quite a theme this ep for some of the male characters, and that includes Mr. I Miss You.

All said, I really did enjoy this ep and am glad the show is back! The mix of hilarity and more serious things along with fleshing out the characters is very refreshing.

Edited January 4, 2019 by HouseofBeck

[chaifan]

Some random thoughts on earlier comments (too lazy to imbed them all)...

Kelly's appearance - I also noticed she looked different.  I watched this episode and episode 2 (which was really last season) back to back, and it looked like they changed her make up quite a bit, more make up, covered up her moles more.  Sort of reminded me of the excessive make up for women in STNG, especially the early episodes.  One would hope that things would change in 400 years.

Size of the ship - it was mentioned in Ep 2 (this isn't a spoiler) that the crew size is 300.

Ed's "drive by" being equated to stalking - oh, come on.  If this is stalking then pretty much every teenager - boys and girls - with a car (or friend with a car) has to be labeled a stalker.  It was a one time thing.  And it was meant to show Ed's maturity is exactly that of a teenager.

The comment about Bortus eating Marcus' homework being racist.  Same as above - oh, come on.  It's been a running gag that Bortus can/will eat anything.  It was a call back to that, not some indication that they hold him in the same regard as a dog. 

Speculation that McFarland will explore more racy uses of the holodeck/simulator - wait 'til episode 2. 

[Yeah No]

I think this show shifts between satire and drama when necessary, only it's up to the audience to figure out when which is intended.  I'm seeing that this leaves a segment of the audience confused and/or unsatisfied.  Some people just like both things to be clear or not exist together in one show.  If this show were done like a dramedy it might be easier to accept the two together, but because this show contains satire it's harder to tell where the show is coming from at any given time.  When is it serious and when is it poking fun?  I think I know the answer to that question, but obviously not everyone agrees.

[ganesh]

I don't think it's fair to dismiss people's concerns about racism in the show universe without really seeing much on the show about the state of race relations both for Bortus or Claire and her kids. 

[shapeshifter]

55 minutes ago, chaifan said:

The comment about Bortus eating Marcus' homework being racist.  Same as above - oh, come on.  It's been a running gag that Bortus can/will eat anything.  It was a call back to that, not some indication that they hold him in the same regard as a dog

It's possible that the writers didn't consider that by substituting Bortus for a dog in the old missing homework excuse, that they were also equating those of a non-dominant race with dogs—and that dogs are often symbolic of the lowest of animals. But perhaps because the dog I grew up with and loved was in the habit of eating its own poop, I can also share the indignation of those who feel the writers should have known better than to not edit out a line that could be offensive and hurtful.

[Yeah No]

20 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I don't think it's fair to dismiss people's concerns about racism in the show universe without really seeing much on the show about the state of race relations both for Bortus or Claire and her kids. 

I'm not dismissing anyone's concerns, but I am stating my opinion that it is off the mark to read too much into this series, whether it be taking seriously what I feel is intended as pure comedy or reading racism into plot situations.  I don't watch every show looking for social injustices that may or may not be there.  Sometimes I think a cigar is just a cigar, not a political statement.  I have sometimes seen a political statement depending on the treatment of a situation, but not this time.  I'll leave it at that.  Feel free to disagree.

[ganesh]

The point was that saying "oh come on" is dismissive of a viewer's interpretation of what they watched.

"I'm not sure they were being racist because we already had a scene on the show where the crew asked Bortus to eat a whole bunch of things" is a reasonable objection and valid alternative interpretation of the scene. I don't know how the kids might know that because the crew didn't at the time. 

I don't think Ed was being a stalker because we haven't seen that behavior before and he did say "I just want to go out and get some air." But it was certainly stalker ish behavior so if a viewer sees it that way it's not necessarily wrong. 

Everyone has gone through something at some point so it's fair to look at the show from multiple perspectives and see how people watch it. 

[Yeah No]

1 minute ago, ganesh said:

The point was that saying "oh come on" is dismissive of a viewer's interpretation of what they watched.

"I'm not sure they were being racist because we already had a scene on the show where the crew asked Bortus to eat a whole bunch of things" is a reasonable objection and valid alternative interpretation of the scene. I don't know how the kids might know that because the crew didn't at the time. 

I don't think Ed was being a stalker because we haven't seen that behavior before and he did say "I just want to go out and get some air." But it was certainly stalker ish behavior so if a viewer sees it that way it's not necessarily wrong. 

Everyone has gone through something at some point so it's fair to look at the show from multiple perspectives and see how people watch it. 

Forgive me, I am 60 years old and perhaps that makes me not see everything through what I think is the narrow lens of recently popular concepts.  Therefore I don't think every person that drives by an old flame's house ONCE is a stalker or is even necessarily engaging in "stalkerish" behavior, or that people that react with "Oh come on" are necessarily being unnecessarily dismissive.  But I think it's everyone's right to disagree with me even if I think they are wrong.  That's what having an opinion is all about, thinking that your way of thinking is right and someone who disagrees with you is wrong.  There's nothing wrong with thinking other people are wrong as long as you give them the right to disagree with you and respect their opinion even if you think it's wrong.  In my opinion, of course.  :)

[Chicago Redshirt]

Let's give Ed the benefit of the doubt for discussion's sake and say that he didn't take the shuttle out specifically to spy on Kelly. That he just happened to be driving around to clear his head and he just happened to be flying close enough to Kelly's quarters right around dinner and he just happened to see Kelly and Cassius having dinner. 

What would take it from random coincidence to creepy still in my mind are two things: him using the shuttle's cloak and him pretending to not have taken the shuttle out when Kelly asked about it.

Rather than just explain "Oh I just was randomly there, sorry for intruding on your privacy," Ed engaged in an abuser's technique called gaslighting. Gaslighting is when an abuser straight-up lies to someone in an attempt to get that person to question their reality. In this case, when he denied first that he had been by her place in a shuttle and second when confronted with a log that showed he had taken a shuttle out, pretending that Gordon and he had a thing where they took out shuttles in each others' names. I know it was supposed to be a joke for us, the audience. But I don't take gaslighting as a laughing matter.

And given that, I find it hard to give Ed the actual benefit of the doubt that he was not looking on some level to creep in on Kelly's privacy in the first place.

[Pike Ludwell]

He wasn't stalking. He wanted to get some info, got the info, and then disappeared! BTW<  I just watched The Shield, and his reaction when he first saw reminded me of Dutch's reaction when he saw Sofer (his crush) with Mackey: : "You've got to be shi..ing me."

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

know it was supposed to be a joke for us, the audience. But I don't take gaslighting as a laughing matter.

Good point, well-supported by your complete post above—especially about Ed trying to deny he even took the shuttle out. But, playing the devil's advocate, is there ever a difference between gaslighting for the purpose of trying to make someone doubt their own sanity, and just trying to convince someone that a fictional account of what happened is the real version? I ask in part because my mother frequently rewrote family dramas and history in her own mind and then reintroduced these alternatives into our collective narrative—which I did find disturbing, but which is probably very common. Anyway, Ed did seem to convey that he didn't think Kelly was buying for a minute that he hadn't taken out the shuttle.

[ganesh]

At best Ed made a mistake and then tried to lie his way out of it, at worst he's trying to gaslight Kelly. Either way, the behavior isn't fitting to me for a space ship captain. I don't know how it works with the Union but maybe she had recourse to report him. The only course there is a sincere and profuse apology. It didn't look like to me when he was flying the shuttle that he was specifically looking for Kelly's room. 

Given that we haven't seen Ed doing that before, I'm not inclined to think he has abusive tendencies, but it's a bad look. 

Edited January 4, 2019 by ganesh

[chaifan]

47 minutes ago, ganesh said:

At best Ed made a mistake and then tried to lie his way out of it, at worst he's trying to gaslight Kelly. Either way, the behavior isn't fitting to me for a space ship captain. I don't know how it works with the Union but maybe she had recourse to report him. The only course there is a sincere and profuse apology. It didn't look like to me when he was flying the shuttle that he was specifically looking for Kelly's room. 

Given that we haven't seen Ed doing that before, I'm not inclined to think he has abusive tendencies, but it's a bad look. 

Ed does a lot of things that aren't "fitting of a space captain".  That's the whole point of his character.  That's the whole premise of how/why he got the job - Kelly had to intervene and lobby for him.  He's not standard captain material.  He does stupid, childish things, in every single episode.  That's a feature, not a bug.

[ganesh]

I'm not so sure that's accurate. She lobbied for him, more because of his self imposed exile. 

Edited January 4, 2019 by ganesh

[shapeshifter]

35 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Ed does a lot of things that aren't "fitting of a space captain".  That's the whole point of his character.  That's the whole premise of how/why he got the job - Kelly had to intervene and lobby for him.  He's not standard captain material.  He does stupid, childish things, in every single episode.  That's a feature, not a bug.

It's two mints in one!

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, chaifan said:

Ed does a lot of things that aren't "fitting of a space captain".  That's the whole point of his character.  That's the whole premise of how/why he got the job - Kelly had to intervene and lobby for him.  He's not standard captain material.  He does stupid, childish things, in every single episode.  That's a feature, not a bug.

The notion was that he was on a fast-track to the captaincy until he was hit hard by Kelly's cheating and the divorce. 

So on the one hand, he can be childish and petty and an average Joe. And on the other, he can be the same sort of captain that other classic sci-fi shows have.

[Happywatcher]

Just caught up on DVR now that Christmas movie season is done. Season 2 of a tongue in cheek star trek parody show is still better than the CBS big budget serious star trek show

[shrewd.buddha]

Had missed this episode and found it on Fox On Demand - but Fox definitely labels it as 'comedy' , not 'action' or 'drama'. And I do view it as a comedy/parody even though it does not seem to stick to one tone or another. Maybe it is FOX's attempt to avoid being sued by Star Trek.

Starting the season with Ed and Kelly's relationship drama signaled to me that the show is committed to them being the destined, endgame couple. All other love interests are most likely cannon fodder. Ugh. 

Considering that the show began and ended with the subject of an alien peeing ritual (and really emphasizing the term "peeing"), I really did not take any of the other plots as intended to be more serious than that.  To me, it feels as if I would be putting more thought into the story than the writers do - - like worrying about Homer Simpson's career  and parenting choices. 
Still, it is a fun show..

Edited January 8, 2019 by shrewd.buddha

[funky-rat]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 8:11 PM, GussieK said:

Welcome back, show!  James was pulling an Eddie Haskell. Hope that’s not too much of a geezer reference. 

And his parents were pulling a Fred Rutherford, as his Clarence (Lumpy) never did bad things......

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:26 PM, DoctorK said:

There have been more than enough situations these days where security camera footage and body cams have clearly documented behavior but parents and friends still insist the bad actor did nothing wrong. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

My husband, when he was a mechanic, installed surveillance cameras on school busses.  At the time, they were expensive to operate, and the kids didn't know that at any given time, only half of the cameras were actually recording.  They'd alternate busses, and if a particular bus was having a problem, they'd steadily record.  The owner of the company told us once that he took concrete proof in to the school that their son was behaving badly enough to get kicked off the bus, and they STILL refused to believe it.  Among their claims was that the footage was edited, and the quality was poor and it was another kid.  Neither was true.