S03.E09: The Beginning Is the End Is the Beginning

[MsChicklet]

17 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I like the idea of Kate going back to school to become a music teacher.  The writers have struggled with storylines for Kate, so I welcome this one.  It's a reasonable storyline instead of her trying to become a singer at 38 or Randall running for city council while he lives in another state.  I think it shows growth for Kate as she is finally becoming an adult.  

 

I think it will also dovetail with post-fire Teen Big Three storylines. Why did Kate give up on college so close to her degree? She's competent and has some talent. But something has caused her to self-sabotage professionally, except when she worked for Kevin.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

As for her being in school but not being able to drive.  2 hours in the car vs. two hours in a classroom are totally different.  She's not going back full time, so it's most likely she's only taking a class or 2 at a time. She won't be sitting sentient for hours on end.  She can stand up, go to the bathroom, move her legs and arms during lectures.  Sitting in a confined space like a car is totally different.

The thing that didn't make sense to me is that she can also take any number of breaks while driving to her singing jobs, which we haven't been told are that frequent anyway.  Get out the car, walk around.  So it has me wondering if maybe the unspoken part of what the doctor was saying was that by being immobile for periods of time she has a blood clotting risk, pulmonary embolism, stroke, etc.  Wasn't too clear, I'm only guessing, but sitting is sitting, breaks to walk around can be done anywhere except a plane (which they advise you to do to avoid venous thrombosis, but no, it's not really very feasible at all). 

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, TwoGrayTabbies said:

First “reality tv” fostered a wave of LOOK AT ME exhibitionism, then social media increased it exponentially.  At least Kate and Toby didn’t fly all their friends in to watch them live-stream the cake reveal.  By social media and Toby standards, the cake bit was modest.

I agree.  I can see the immediately family and some BFFs caring.  Other than that....... No!

[Christina87]

23 hours ago, qtpye said:

Yes, Kate, you can not wait around and do nothing while you are pregnant for the good of the baby, because you are such an active person. This is why you are morbidly obese, have not finished college in 20 years, and have not sat around while your financially successful male relatives have pampered you to the point that you never even had a real job, even nearing the age of 40. I say this as an overweight woman myself, you are obviously nothing but a flurry of hard working activity.

I absolutely love this comment, because this was what I thought as well. Of course, weight is not an easy thing to manage, but Kate's not on the go like Kevin is. Kevin, I truly couldn't see sitting still. He has this restless demeanor, where he keeps busy even between gigs (even going to Vietnam!). After he got injured in high school, it didn't take him long to try acting. Randall, too. He quits his job, but instead of resting, takes in a foster kid and starts a campaign. Kate is the opposite, though. She sits around and mopes constantly, only thinking about "poor me" and not taking action, except maybe at a glacial pace, and calls it groundbreaking. It's even okay; we can't all be trailblazers, but at least be self aware enough to know how "I can't do nothing," sounds coming from your mouth!

I would even have bought this scene if she had said, "I don't WANT to sit around and wait on the baby," (which would be a little selfish for the good of the baby, but plenty of moms HAVE to work, so she'd likely be ok) but implying she CAN'T sit around and do nothing is ridiculous, because we have all seen evidence to the contrary. The only real initiative she has shown was going to that weight loss support group, and in a lesser way, pursuing gigs. Still, both of these are things most people do on top of full-time jobs. Kate is delusional if she thinks she lives suuuuch a busy, active lifestyle and could never slow down. 

I wonder if this is written intentionally to be a similarity between Rebecca and Kate. Both of them sure do a lot of talking about not being able to exist without a career, while neither of them have ever had one (except for Kate's time as Kevin's assistant). I could take someone like beth seriously if she said, "I could never just be a wife who sits around at home without a career," but not Rebecca or Kate. Beth has walked the walk, and spent at least twelve years in the corporate world, but I STILL don't see her complaining about being out of work as much as pre-marriage Rebecca, who had never so much as waited a table. I'm still waiting for the scene where Rebecca realizes she needs to get a secretarial job while working on her music dream, and decides she hates working lol. I can't wait until the scene where she's at her desk job, nine months pregnant, and it truly sinks in how hard it will be to do this with triplets. She annoys me because she is so self righteous about not being "one of those women" without careers, while she is privileged enough to avoid one herself. Kate is like this to a lesser extent, which makes me wonder if it's intentional. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a housewife (I want to be one someday!) but just admit that's what you are and be happy. Kate's husband can support her not working while pregnant, so there is no shame whatsoever in taking him up on it. Even pre-marriage Rebecca is naive, but Kate shouldn't be at 38. She could take local singing gigs and enjoy preparing for the baby, with likely no judgment from anyone. And, like another poster said, she could volunteer somewhere! She could make a huge difference getting involved in her community, which would take her mind off the baby but allow her to work at her own pace. Working during pregnancy involves puking your guts out some mornings and then continuing to work. Who thinks Kate is resilient enough for that? Anyone?

And weren't we supposed to get more of Rebecca and jack's early dating this season? I was so intrigued after the episode where he washed the dishes. We were also supposed to see a lot after jack died. Instead, almost all we've gotten has been Vietnam, which IMO is the least compelling of the three storylines.

Anyway, I have noticed this kind of thing in real life too! The women who say, "I could NEVER stay home with my kids! I would lose my identity," are the first ones to happily quit when their husband says they can. I don't know if they're being graceful about having to work, or delusional like Kate, but basically 100% of the time if a woman (IMO) brags about being a career woman, she will quit the first second she is able!

Edited November 29, 2018 by Christina87

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

The thing that didn't make sense to me is that she can also take any number of breaks while driving to her singing jobs, which we haven't been told are that frequent anyway.  Get out the car, walk around.  So it has me wondering if maybe the unspoken part of what the doctor was saying was that by being immobile for periods of time she has a blood clotting risk, pulmonary embolism, stroke, etc.  Wasn't too clear, I'm only guessing, but sitting is sitting, breaks to walk around can be done anywhere except a plane (which they advise you to do to avoid venous thrombosis, but no, it's not really very feasible at all). 

Well, it depends on how many breaks she'd want to take while driving to a gig that could be two hours away. If she's told that she should be moving more, then being in a car for two hours just one way doesn't make a lot of sense. That would make the day that much longer for Kate, as well. Her taking more breaks while driving means she has to leave that much earlier and get home that much later, which also wouldn't be good for a high risk pregnancy. At least, with being a choir teacher or even going to school, that's less time in the car, she can still be home at a reasonable time and it's more practical. Sure, she'd likely be spending a few hours a day in a classroom, but she can choose her schedule, she can take online classes, she can generally find other ways around her situation. While keeping her job as a singing telegram, she has less choices to make, she's stuck in a car for hours, and it's less convenient for her.

[Drumpf1737]

1 hour ago, alexvillage said:

I was so sure that Beth was having early symptoms of Alzheimers when she was on her job interview. Why all that drama if there is nothing to it?

Because it illustrated that she and Randall have anxiety disorders in common. It also demonstrated that she's not always cool and together.  

[Bklyndeb]

So, aside from the residency issue, is Randall running a primary challenge against a sitting councilmember or is this a General Election?  What party does Randall belong to?  You don't just run because you want to.  I've worked for an elected official for 13 years.  It doesn't work that way.

[ChromaKelly]

Kate going back to school is a decent storyline for her, and if she does end up teaching, I like that they are doing something at least grounded in reality (teaching needs a college degree!) rather than just waltzing in and becoming a teacher. However, why does this show have to do all this convoluted shit just to arrive at a plot point? Kate's blood pressure is high, she needs to walk and move around, she works as an Adele-o-gram and has to drive for hours, her friend suggests a teaching job, she can't get it, now she's going back to school! Can't she just decide that on her own? Hey, being a singing telegram isn't fullfilling, I would like to go back to school. If she wanted to keep her singing telegram job, could she ask for non-Adele assignments in order to get more closer to home?
 

[Sharyn]

On 11/28/2018 at 8:53 AM, ChromaKelly said:

One doesn't need a degree to be an on-call sub. As in, you get called to sub for the day, basically make sure the kids don't die. To be a long-term sub, you need to be a teacher (this is the districts I'm familiar with). Most long-term subs are new teachers fresh out of college trying to find a permanent position, retired teachers, or teachers who left (generally once they had kids) looking for work but don't want to come back full time. Long term subs need to be able to teach the material. There's more to being a high school music teacher than being able to sing a bit. A desperate district though might take a teacher who is still working on their certification.
I will admit I was willing to handwave all this, as I liked Kate last week with Tess and was thinking the writers were going to build off that interaction and have Kate find her niche as a teacher/mentor. 

In the state of Arizona, ALL Substitute Teachers must be highly-qualified with a degree in Education.  No exceptions.  I wouldn't want my children taught by a substitute who wasn't certified and educated to do so.  

[ChromaKelly]

2 minutes ago, Sharyn said:

In the state of Arizona, ALL Substitute Teachers must be highly-qualified with a degree in Education.  No exceptions.  I wouldn't want my children taught by a substitute who wasn't certified and educated to do so.  

In our county, the daily subs don't have to have a degree, but a long-term sub needs to be a certified teacher. I think the daily subs get paid more if they have a degree and there might be rules about what classes they can sub for, I'm not sure. I'm talking more about the sub who just shows a movie and passes out a worksheet, not really teaching the class.

[NUguy514]

8 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

In our county, the daily subs don't have to have a degree, but a long-term sub needs to be a certified teacher. I think the daily subs get paid more if they have a degree and there might be rules about what classes they can sub for, I'm not sure. I'm talking more about the sub who just shows a movie and passes out a worksheet, not really teaching the class.

Right, and the rest of us are saying that those one-off subs, in fact, need to have degrees where we live (and in LA County, where I live, they also need to be credentialed).  The only type of school in LA that might not require a credential would be a private school, but the private schools whose kids I've tutored would never have a sub without at least a bachelor's degree.  I will say, we do have a few "design your own education, come to class for three hours three days a week or whenever you feel like it!" pseudo-schools here, and those I could certainly see hiring "teachers" without degrees.

[suzeecat]

I will admit that I have never been involved in a political campaign, but I can't recall ever hearing anything about someone dropping out of the race because of some bad poll results.  Seriously, do people do that?!?  Even if Randall loses by a landslide, he will garner far more respect for running a good race to the end rather than dropping out when the going got tough.  There's always the next election . . .

Not the same, but I remember here in Detroit in the 2013 mayoral election, one candidate was able to get the other removed from the primary ballot on a technicality.  Game over, right?  Well, the guy who got removed continued to run a write-in campaign and ended up winning the primary and winning the final election!  Never say never, Randall!

Also, if the poll results were really positive, what if Beth just decided somewhere along the line that she wasn't feeling it anymore and reminded Randall of his promise to back off if at any time she asked him to?  Really?  That's just an unrealistic promise to make to someone in the case of running in an election.  The candidate needs to be able to commit 100% to the entire process. 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Christina87 said:

I absolutely love this comment, because this was what I thought as well. Of course, weight is not an easy thing to manage, but Kate's not on the go like Kevin is. Kevin, I truly couldn't see sitting still. He has this restless demeanor, where he keeps busy even between gigs (even going to Vietnam!). After he got injured in high school, it didn't take him long to try acting. Randall, too. He quits his job, but instead of resting, takes in a foster kid and starts a campaign. Kate is the opposite, though. She sits around and mopes constantly, only thinking about "poor me" and not taking action, except maybe at a glacial pace, and calls it groundbreaking. It's even okay; we can't all be trailblazers, but at least be self aware enough to know how "I can't do nothing," sounds coming from your mouth!

I would even have bought this scene if she had said, "I don't WANT to sit around and wait on the baby," (which would be a little selfish for the good of the baby, but plenty of moms HAVE to work, so she'd likely be ok) but implying she CAN'T sit around and do nothing is ridiculous, because we have all seen evidence to the contrary. The only real initiative she has shown was going to that weight loss support group, and in a lesser way, pursuing gigs. Still, both of these are things most people do on top of full-time jobs. Kate is delusional if she thinks she lives suuuuch a busy, active lifestyle and could never slow down. 

I wonder if this is written intentionally to be a similarity between Rebecca and Kate. Both of them sure do a lot of talking about not being able to exist without a career, while neither of them have ever had one (except for Kate's time as Kevin's assistant). I could take someone like beth seriously if she said, "I could never just be a wife who sits around at home without a career," but not Rebecca or Kate. Beth has walked the walk, and spent at least twelve years in the corporate world, but I STILL don't see her complaining about being out of work as much as pre-marriage Rebecca, who had never so much as waited a table. I'm still waiting for the scene where Rebecca realizes she needs to get a secretarial job while working on her music dream, and decides she hates working lol. I can't wait until the scene where she's at her desk job, nine months pregnant, and it truly sinks in how hard it will be to do this with triplets. She annoys me because she is so self righteous about not being "one of those women" without careers, while she is privileged enough to avoid one herself. Kate is like this to a lesser extent, which makes me wonder if it's intentional. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a housewife (I want to be one someday!) but just admit that's what you are and be happy. Kate's husband can support her not working while pregnant, so there is no shame whatsoever in taking him up on it. Even pre-marriage Rebecca is naive, but Kate shouldn't be at 38. She could take local singing gigs and enjoy preparing for the baby, with likely no judgment from anyone. And, like another poster said, she could volunteer somewhere! She could make a huge difference getting involved in her community, which would take her mind off the baby but allow her to work at her own pace. Working during pregnancy involves puking your guts out some mornings and then continuing to work. Who thinks Kate is resilient enough for that? Anyone?

And weren't we supposed to get more of Rebecca and jack's early dating this season? I was so intrigued after the episode where he washed the dishes. We were also supposed to see a lot after jack died. Instead, almost all we've gotten has been Vietnam, which IMO is the least compelling of the three storylines.

Anyway, I have noticed this kind of thing in real life too! The women who say, "I could NEVER stay home with my kids! I would lose my identity," are the first ones to happily quit when their husband says they can. I don't know if they're being graceful about having to work, or delusional like Kate, but basically 100% of the time if a woman (IMO) brags about being a career woman, she will quit the first second she is able!

I think many writers are stuck in the mode that most middle class women choose to work as some sort of feminist statement (lower income women almost always had to keep working). The truth is that now a days women work because they have to in order to keep the household financially viable. Kate is very fortunate that she does not have any finanical issues before and after marriage. Her very sucessful brother gave her a job as his assistant and her husband seems more than able to support both of them in pricey California and even with expensive fertitlity treatments. The fact that Kate can not give up her silly, probably bringing very little money Adele O' Gram job for a couple of months to keep the baby that she so desperately wanted safe is ridiculous, "because she can not just not do nothing", when in truth she has almost done nothing for a couple of decades. Yes, she lost her father at a young age, but both of her brothers have had incredible financial success, despite the same tragedy. I think Kate thinks that her grief is more sacred because she was her father's special princess. It is almost like she never appreciates her good fortune because she always has to be the victim in her own life. Again, this is more against the writing than the character.

[SteveR405]

On 11/27/2018 at 11:03 PM, Amethyst said:

2125 Songbird Rd.

Bradford, PA 16701.

That is a real address, though there doesn't seem to be a house at that location.

[ChromaKelly]

23 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

Right, and the rest of us are saying that those one-off subs, in fact, need to have degrees where we live (and in LA County, where I live, they also need to be credentialed).  The only type of school in LA that might not require a credential would be a private school, but the private schools whose kids I've tutored would never have a sub without at least a bachelor's degree.  I will say, we do have a few "design your own education, come to class for three hours three days a week or whenever you feel like it!" pseudo-schools here, and those I could certainly see hiring "teachers" without degrees.

I wasn't arguing, just relating what it's like in my area. It still makes no sense that Kate never bothered to check the job requirements before interviewing.

[Eureka]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Given that they have to travel quite a distance for Deja to see her mom, it would make sense for them to travel over Christmas vacation.

Delaware and NJ are next to each other. So, given the fact that they are always running back and forth a couple hours to Philly, going to Delaware is probably something they would just do, you know, after school ;). 

[Christina87]

29 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I think many writers are stuck in the mode that most middle class women choose to work as some sort of feminist statement (lower income women almost always had to keep working). The truth is that now a days women work because they have to in order to keep the household financially viable. Kate is very fortunate that she does not have any finanical issues before and after marriage. Her very sucessful brother gave her a job as his assistant and her husband seems more than able to support both of them in pricey California and even with expensive fertitlity treatments. The fact that Kate can not give up her silly, probably bringing very little money Adele O' Gram job for a couple of months to keep the baby that she so desperately wanted safe is ridiculous, "because she can not just not do nothing", when in truth she has almost done nothing for a couple of decades. Yes, she lost her father at a young age, but both of her brothers have had incredible financial success, despite the same tragedy. I think Kate thinks that her grief is more sacred because she was her father's special princess. It is almost like she never appreciates her good fortune because she always has to be the victim in her own life. Again, this is more against the writing than the character.

THIS!!! ^^^

i agree with you in general too that a lot of writers are out of touch. I get so annoyed when people say, "starting in the 50's, women were allowed to work!!!" Ummm...some women always worked! What about all the women before the 50's who worked as maids? Toiled in factories for twelve hours a day? Ran farms without men during WWII because they were all at war, as my ancestors did? Poor women have always had the "opportunity" to work! Rich and middle class women, until very recently, have been liberated from having to take a menial job to get by. Rebecca is a good example of that.

What it seems the writers don't get, is today even most childless women from financially comfortable families still work. The social pressure to do so is immense, and today you see very few people like young, unemployed Rebecca, except among the FABULOUSLY wealthy. The fact that Kate hasn't done much in the way of a career is an anomaly that puts her behind the average woman who has successful brothers and a new husband, not ahead. She doesn't get to be considered a career woman for doing the occasional Adele-o-gram when 99% of women of a similar status have real 9-5 jobs. I don't get why the writers consider, like you said, her occasional gigs the same as if she was a doctor because of strong feminist views.

Also, like you said, the vast majority of middle class women with children who work do so because of economic necessity. When was the last time you really heard someone say, "woooowww!!! I'm sooooo lucky to get to come in every day and shuffle papers around, barely covering the cost of daycare! Yeahhhhh! Thanks, Betty Friedan!" Don't want to get too political with it, so that's all I'll say about that, but the main point of all this is that the writers are really out of touch.

Today, most women who have fabulous careers probably are doing them because they have a feminist, sky is the limit personality. I'd consider Beth to be in this category, and maybe the show should focus on her if they want to portray a woman who really loves having a career. Most middle class women are working out of financial necessity, and lower class women have ALWAYS worked. The writers may think they're making Kate into one feminist hero, but they need to take a step back and look at her past actions. It's like someone who takes a walk around the block once a week for .10 mile exclaiming, "I could never live in a world where I couldn't work out!" They also need to stop making Rebecca look like some sort of a trailblazer for her time. By the late 70's, women working was very accepted, especially young childless women, but all she does is whine about a career. Who would have begrudged her taking a desk job in that time period? But no, Rebecca only wants a career if it's super glamorous and makes her rich and famous. She seems to like talking about a career more than actually doing music, much like Kate.

 If they're writing them like this to show mother / daughter similarities, and that they're delusional, it's brilliant writing, but sadly, I don't think it's the case. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Christina87

[ChromaKelly]

Apologies if I missed it, but why did Kate drop out with 8 credits to go? That's only 2-3 classes. 

[Sharyn]

On 11/28/2018 at 6:13 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

That Was Us:

 

Thank you for posting these.  I keep forgetting to go on NBC.com to view the Aftershows.  You ROCK!

[qtpye]

2 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

THIS!!! ^^^

i agree with you in general too that a lot of writers are out of touch. I get so annoyed when people say, "starting in the 50's, women were allowed to work!!!" Ummm...some women always worked! What about all the women before the 50's who worked as maids? Toiled in factories for twelve hours a day? Ran farms without men during WWII because they were all at war, as my ancestors did? Poor women have always had the "opportunity" to work! Rich women, until very recently, have been liberated from having to take a menial job to get by. Rebecca is a good example of that. What it seems the writers don't get, is today most financially comfortable childless women still work. The fact that Kate hasn't done much in the way of a career is an anomaly that puts her behind the average woman. She doesn't get to be considered a career woman for doing the occasional Adele-o-gram when 99% of women of her socioeconomic childless status have real 9-5 jobs. I don't get why the writers consider, like you said, her occasional gigs the same as if she was a doctor because of strong feminist views. Also, like you said, the vast majority of women with children who work do so because of economic necessity. When was the last time you really heard someone say, "woooowww!!! I'm sooooo lucky to get to come in every day and shuffle papers around, barely covering the cost of daycare! Yeahhhhh! Thanks, Betty Friedan!" Don't want to get too political with it, so that's all I'll say about that, but the main point of all this is that the writers are really out of touch. Today, most women who have fabulous careers probably are doing them because they have a feminist, sky is the limit personality. I'd consider Beth to be in this category, and maybe the show should focus on her if they want to portray a woman who really loves having a career. Most middle class women are working out of financial necessity, and lower class women have ALWAYS worked. The writers may think they're making Kate into one feminist hero, but they need to take a step back and look at her past actions. It's like someone who takes a walk around the block once a week for .10 mile exclaiming, "I could never live in a world where I couldn't work out!" They also need to stop making Rebecca look like some sort of a trailblazer for her time. By the late 70's, women working was very accepted, especially young childless women, but all she does is whine about a career. Who would have begrudged her taking a desk job in that time period? But no, Rebecca only wants a career if it's super glamorous and makes her rich and famous. She seems to like talking about a career more than actually doing music, much like Kate. If they're writing them like this to show mother / daughter similarities, and that they're delusional, it's brilliant writing, but sadly, I don't think it's the case. 

I actually would love to see a show where a woman is like, "I am having a a baby and would love to stay home and be a full time housewife" and the husband respond, "How the hell could we afford that"? My generation of men pretty much expect that their wives have jobs and really do not want the burden of being the sole financial provider for the household if they can help it. Rebecca is the age of my mother and my mother worked full time and it was really not all that uncommon. I actually had respect for Rebecca pursuing her singing dream, until the writers had to show her give up and return to Pittsburgh after one frickin rejection. I love Pittsburgh but it is not the place to start a singing career in the seventies and Rebecca even had a friend with a mansion that was offering to put her up. I realized that the whole storyline more about what a Saint Jack is than anything to do with Rebecca. Actually this whole season has been more cannonizing of St. Jack and St. William than really focusing on the triplets.  Kate, wants a baby, "because only she can carry on Jack's genes, Kevin is in Vietnam because he is still obsessed with his the life of his father who died 20 years ago, and Randall cares more for a neighborhood that his biodad, who abadoned him, lived in than his own family, who are going through their own issues.

[Violetgoblin6]

Ugh. so much to digest. 

I really wanted to watch it again but my husband deleted it. I normally delete them immediately so I don't blame him. My thoughts, for what they're worth: 

 

• Getting kind of bored with Nicky in Vietnam
• Kevin and Zoe in Vietnam is so calming to watch. Finally seeing chemistry between these two. They seem to be close friends in real life, Justin (gorgeous man) and Chrishell, his wife, do stuff w Melanie. Saw Melanie on Access Hollywood, really starting to like her.
• The guy who plays Nicky appeals to me for some reason. Also love Griffin Dunne. 
• I figured Nicky was alive, could've gone either way for me. 
• So. Frigging. Tired. Of Randall. Of course he pulled off an emotional, heroic debate. Of course he'll "win". Thinking Brown will get in trouble, be found out, get sick, die, etc. and have to leave. This can't be good. 
• The young actress who plays Tess is outstanding. I could literally feel her emotions. I'm struck by the resemblance between the older actress that plays Tess and Eris. Hated Beth saying, "No matter what". Okay guys, correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Randall in episode 1/season 1 say on the soccer field, "That's my little bull duke!" ??
• Tess is only ten? I knew "The Twenties" took place in 2008, but it just hit me that she is ten. Looks, acts older. 
• Sad we may not be seeing Randall's campaign manager again.  So cute. Come back! 
• No time for Toby and Kate, but not surprised by baby Jack. The cake looked green. I love cake to distraction, but...M&M's? Too sweet.
• Mark my words. Rebecca's aches and pains are going to come back. Chekhov's gun. My mom says MS is diagnosed as a teen, twenty something. But was Annette Funacello's (sp?) Richard Pryor's? Weren't they older? 
• Love how we're seeing Rebecca's life from eight or so, until probably 85. She was born in 1950. Unpopular opinion, I think she's just beautiful. Like a doll. The whole family is attractive, gorgeous (except Toby and Randall, sorry! His body is hot...) Beth is stunning...
• Love Beth's 2033 look! They gave her a slight, slight paunch. I loved her styling. 
• I was honestly getting bored with the show. I'd missed the last two episodes. I watched this one later and admittedly spoiled myself. But the music and scenes at the end, despite clearly being manipulating, drew me right back in. There is something menacing and dark about the future. The way they are filming it, the lighting (much like they filmed 1970 in a hazy, yellow hued tone), is darker. Where is Annie? Is she a ballerina? Dead? Where is Kate and her son? Kevin and Zoe?? 
• I watched St. Elsewhere. Yeah, all in the mind of a child with autism who imagined his blue-collar grandfather and dad as doctors in a hospital inside a snowglobe. Would not be the least bit surprised if they are telling her tales of the past. Nicky filling in Jacks childhood and Vietnam. There is gonna be a twist like that, MMW. 

Edit: spelling

Edited November 29, 2018 by Violetgoblin6

[PRgal]

• As far as I know Tess is still 10.  However, the actress who plays her is 13, which is why she looks "older."   
• Cake was most definitely blue to me
• Kate and Kate's son could be with Rebecca (Kate's son would be about 14-15 then.  He might be forced to go see his grandmother)
• Annie?  Maybe she's with Rebecca?  

Randall looks like he's going to have a stressful 15 years.  He looks older than 53 or so.  Beth, however, seems less so.  

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, suzeecat said:

I will admit that I have never been involved in a political campaign, but I can't recall ever hearing anything about someone dropping out of the race because of some bad poll results.  Seriously, do people do that?!?  Even if Randall loses by a landslide, he will garner far more respect for running a good race to the end rather than dropping out when the going got tough.  There's always the next election . . .

Not the same, but I remember here in Detroit in the 2013 mayoral election, one candidate was able to get the other removed from the primary ballot on a technicality.  Game over, right?  Well, the guy who got removed continued to run a write-in campaign and ended up winning the primary and winning the final election!  Never say never, Randall!

Also, if the poll results were really positive, what if Beth just decided somewhere along the line that she wasn't feeling it anymore and reminded Randall of his promise to back off if at any time she asked him to?  Really?  That's just an unrealistic promise to make to someone in the case of running in an election.  The candidate needs to be able to commit 100% to the entire process. 

While I have never heard of a candidate quitting a race just because the polls indicated a loss was coming; many candidates will dial it way back if it looks like they're going to lose no matter what they do.  I don't think Randall necessarily needs to drop out, but he can scale back the personal appearances, stop spending money on campaign items and simply show up to concede and wish the other guy the best of luck on election night.  As it is, it looks like he's running full tilt, 24/7 and promising to be everything to everyone.  Not only is he being unrealistic, he is wasting valuable time and money on a losing fight.

[Violetgoblin6]

22 hours ago, MBayGal said:

A couple I know having their first child together had one of those parties.  They gave the baker a sealed envelope from their doctor with the child's sex on it.  The baker made a batch of cupcakes, just one of which had something of the correct color in it.  So they found out along with their guests.  It strikes me as odd too, but it's now a thing.

So did a friend from high school. Got pregnant later in life (we're 44, baby is three) and splashed the pink innards of the cake all over social media. She was saying how very surprised she was, but I was like, 'but you must have known to order the correct cake for the party. How would the bakery know?' Never once occurred to me that the doctor gives the couple an sealed envelope to pass onto the bakery. Duh! Clearly I've never been pregnant. 

[ShadowFacts]

2 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

While I have never heard of a candidate quitting a race just because the polls indicated a loss was coming; many candidates will dial it way back if it looks like they're going to lose no matter what they do.  I don't think Randall necessarily needs to drop out, but he can scale back the personal appearances, stop spending money on campaign items and simply show up to concede and wish the other guy the best of luck on election night.  As it is, it looks like he's running full tilt, 24/7 and promising to be everything to everyone.  Not only is he being unrealistic, he is wasting valuable time and money on a losing fight.

Yes, wasting time and money unless, as others have suggested, we enter Plot Deviceville and Sol gets hit by a bus.  I am looking at the title of this episode, " . . . the End is the Beginning. "  I'm not ruling it out.  Because Nicky is alive.  They do not hesitate to go twisty with the plots. 

[tennisgurl]

5 hours ago, Empress1 said:

For Kate and Toby, it just seems like a waste because it was just the two of them and ostensibly they're not eating the cake (right? Are they  still dieting?), so they could have just had their doctor tell them.

It was super weird that it was just them with the cake. People do that as part of a party, they dont normally do it on their own. If they dont want it to become a whole thing, why not just have the doctor tell them? 

Some of my friends and relatives have had gender reveal parties, and they mostly seem to be excuses to take cute Instagram pictures, and to have a party. My cousin and his wife basically used it as an excuse to have a picnic with our family and to day drink! They through confetti in their babies corresponding color, then spent like half an hour picking the pieces up! But then had blueberry wine, so I didnt have an issue with that :) 

[topanga]

17 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I thought the reaction of Randall and Beth was actually okay writing. It was probably something they'd just never thought about, and had no idea how they would respond. I can relate to that, honestly. We had training at work last year about how to respond if a student came out to us. They recommended saying, "thank you for trusting me with this. How private is this information?" They emphasized NOT going the route of whipping out a rainbow flag and screaming, "OMG, that is AWESOME!!!! I'm so excited for you!!! I have gay friends, and they have a great life! You will be so happy, and I still think of you exactly the same." I laughed, because in all reality, that's what I WOULD have said, just so they would be sure I was okay with it. Most people haven't been trained on this topic, and I'd venture to guess that the majority would react "wrong" one way or the other. 

I actually think this gives Randall and Beth a place to grow from. They are obviously "good" characters, not bigots, and know what discrimination feels like.  If the writers made Rebecca's mom react this way, I'd assume the worst, but I'm guessing the writers are showing them fumbling on purpose. They may look back and realize they could have handled it better and correct it when the time is right. They may start paying more attention to LGBT issues in general. I actually appreciate the honest portrayal, as it will be interesting to see where they go from here. 

Great post. But in the Pilot, didn’t Randal call Tess his little ‘bull dagger’ during a soccer game? I know it was eventually ADR-ed with different language, but that’s what was originally filmed. Was Randall joking that Tess must be a lesbian because she was athletic? Or did he actually wonder? 

 

On 11/27/2018 at 10:43 PM, Packerbrewerbadger said:

When Toby and Kate cut the cake , I’m like...... “ it’s green!?!?”  

So it wasn’t just me? I thought my tv had a bad color palette. 

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, Christina87 said:

i agree with you in general too that a lot of writers are out of touch. I get so annoyed when people say, "starting in the 50's, women were allowed to work!!!" Ummm...some women always worked! What about all the women before the 50's who worked as maids? Toiled in factories for twelve hours a day? Ran farms without men during WWII because they were all at war, as my ancestors did? Poor women have always had the "opportunity" to work!

Black women have worked since we were brought to this country. We had no choice; that was the point. That's why Alice Walker coined the term "womanism," because the whole "women want to work outside the home!" tenet of feminism didn't apply to Black women. What's always weird to me about working vs. SAHMs on TV is that on TV, the working woman is the only working woman she knows. In my social circle, I've known people who stopped working when they had kids but it's always been because day care costs a grip and it ate up the lower-earning-person's salary, so it made financial sense for that person to stop working (I do have a few SAHD friends, it's not just women). It wasn't out of a desire to stay home, and they usually go back to work, or try to, once kids are in school. Maybe they could hang on with one but if they had a second child before the first was about three, it made more sense for them to stop working. 

And yeah, if they want me to believe that it would be too hard/out of character for Kate to sit around until the baby is born, they ... need to start over with developing her character, TBH. They've gone out of their way to show that Randall literally works himself sick. Kevin seems to be the one who stumbles into success but works hard at opportunities when he gets them. Working on a sitcom is hard work that requires long hours and he was shown to work hard on the movie. I think he's the kind of person who needs to be doing something all the time (wasn't he bored in sobriety just sitting around after rehab?). Kate hasn't been shown to do any of that. When she got rejected to be a backup singer, the guy said he could tell she hadn't been putting in the work - going to open mics, singing anywhere and everywhere. And from what I can tell she still hasn't.

36 minutes ago, Violetgoblin6 said:

My mom says MS is diagnosed as a teen, twenty something. But was Annette Funacello's (sp?) Richard Pryor's? Weren't they older? 

It's commonly diagnosed in the 20s and 30s but my mother was diagnosed with MS at 53. It's possible that Rebecca is just at the end of her life - she'd be in her 80s in the time in question, and that's a common time to die. (3/4 of my grandparents died in their 80s.)

15 minutes ago, PRgal said:

As far as I know Tess is still 10.  However, the actress who plays her is 13, which is why she looks "older." 

She does look her real age. They're running into the issue that sometimes happens with child actors where they're aging past their characters - especially if the show takes places over a short period of time (see: Walt from Lost).

[PRgal]

Nitpick:  Tess CALLED her mom from the car.  I didn't think people still called much even now?   I mostly communicate by text/messaging and let calls go to voicemail most of the time.  Of course, I'd answer if it's a number I recognize.  

[PRgal]

6 hours ago, Pallas said:

In the U.S., Australia and Canada, graduates of law school are Doctors of Jurisprudence -- J.D.'s -- and in the States, considered the equivalent of a PhD. 

I think some schools in Canada still give out LL.Bs - Bachelor of Law(s).  Law school in Canada is still three years and requires the LSAT (at least in English-speaking Canada).

[Scarlett45]

30 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Nitpick:  Tess CALLED her mom from the car.  I didn't think people still called much even now?   I mostly communicate by text/messaging and let calls go to voicemail most of the time.  Of course, I'd answer if it's a number I recognize.  

Interesting.

I still regularly talk on the phone especially with my most inner circle. Im not surprised Tess would call her mother, especially because when one party is driving you can actually get a real time communication, rather than waiting for someone to read a text. And Beth would recognize her daughter’s name when it came up on her phone (but in this instance Tess called a work number not her cell). 

PS I’m 33 and my mom is the one person I always answer- daughterly duty and all. 

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, suzeecat said:

Not the same, but I remember here in Detroit in the 2013 mayoral election, one candidate was able to get the other removed from the primary ballot on a technicality.  Game over, right?  Well, the guy who got removed continued to run a write-in campaign and ended up winning the primary and winning the final election!  Never say never, Randall!

I don't know.  Out in Nevada this year, Dennis Hof, a brothel owner, was running for State Assembly.  He died two weeks before the election, but still beat his opponent 68%-32%.

[sasha206]

On 11/28/2018 at 2:33 PM, icemiser69 said:

Randall was falling apart and under tremendous pressure.  For his own sanity, and given his past mental health history  (nervous breakdowns), he really had to quit. 

Only two things happened to spur this on, the oldest daughter (Tess?) said she might be gay.  The girl (Deja?) who I don't think they have adopted yet wants to go see her biological mother.

Yes, Randall is behind in the polls, but the polls can change in a short period of time.  Again, the election is only in a few weeks, not months.   Beth can't hold things together for a couple of weeks?  Again, she isn't employed, and neither is Randall.  Surely, something could be worked out.  

I do agree with Randall's political opponent.  It seems to me that he ought to be living in the area, not just own property there.    

I agree.

And it seems the catalyst was her daughter potentially coming out.  So *this* requires him to quit?  Seems like a terrible message to send to your kid -- you come out and now I force your dad to quit his political career.  That implies that her possibly being gay is a bad thing that has to be dealt with and requires your dad to quit politics.  

This show is really now a bad soap opera, with the ridiculous job changes, the faking death or someone who was thought to be dead isn't dea, etc. storylines.

[Violetgoblin6]

21 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Maybe she's on life support and they're going to pull the plug... or she's terminally ill and has chosen doctor-assisted suicide (or whatever the terminology is these days).

 

1. My brother went to community college before transferring to a state school, and ended up having to go an extra year, not because he didn't have enough credits, but because they required pre-requisites for some classes that he transferred from the community college. (Which worked out well for me, because my [private, out-of-state] school cut my financial aid grant by about $5K after he graduated, so I got three years instead of two before they did that, which saved me a chunk on loans.)
    
2. The reasoning bugged me, too. Kate told Rebecca because she was close by and wanted someone to be able to watch out for Tess (or whatever she said)? It's not like this was some dire situation and she was in danger of being kicked out of the house if her parents found out. I don't believe anyone in the family would think Randall and Beth would react badly to the news that one of their daughters might be something other than straight. And everyone and their grandmother has a phone on them almost all the time. Kate might be physically across the country, but she's a phone call away if Tess needed someone to talk to who knew her secret. (That said, I'm glad they didn't drag it out past the two episodes.)

 

Probably gave the barber a long story about how special his hair is and they let him keep it.

 

Heh, I had the same thought. "If he's not a Pearson, then Jack at least left the Pearson spirit behind and it took up residence in this guy."

 

I think the cake idea is cute, but I would only do it with people close to me who would actually care about what I was having (like parents/siblings and maybe a few close friends), or maybe as part of a baby shower. But not the sole focus of a big party. I've seen stories about some really crazy ones, some involving explosives and clouds of pink or blue smoke...one guy apparently started a forest fire with one of those.

Oh. My. God. 

 

And someone just started a fire on Sunday, I think, when a billboard exploded. 

Seriously. When my siblings and I were born you couldn't even find out. Oh, the horror. Sorry, just society these days baffles me. 

[Christina87]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

I actually would love to see a show where a woman is like, "I am having a a baby and would love to stay home and be a full time housewife" and the husband respond, "How the hell could we afford that"? My generation of men pretty much expect that their wives have jobs and really do not want the burden of being the sole financial provider for the household if they can help it. Rebecca is the age of my mother and my mother worked full time and it was really not all that uncommon. I actually had respect for Rebecca pursuing her singing dream, until the writers had to show her give up and return to Pittsburgh after one frickin rejection. I love Pittsburgh but it is not the place to start a singing career in the seventies and Rebecca even had a friend with a mansion that was offering to put her up. I realized that the whole storyline more about what a Saint Jack is than anything to do with Rebecca. Actually this whole season has been more cannonizing of St. Jack and St. William than really focusing on the triplets.  Kate, wants a baby, "because only she can carry on Jack's genes, Kevin is in Vietnam because he is still obsessed with his the life of his father who died 20 years ago, and Randall cares more for a neighborhood that his biodad, who abadoned him, lived in than his own family, who are going through their own issues.

You are so right!!! I would love to see that too. I'd also like to see the storyline of the career woman who realizes how hard it is to do it all, and wants to quit, but her husband won't let her. Then, he truly sees how hard it is on her, and compromises to find a way to make it possible.  It's so weird how today, wanting to be a housewife is never shown on TV, when apparently people want to do it. Hell, every girl i went to high school with is a SAHM! I've wanted to be a housewife since I was like thirteen, but I've always known I was the anomaly. But today, writers think that the only women who stay home are people like Beth who get laid off from their jobs. Even on shows like modern family, they had two SAHM's, but Claire was quickly put back to work, and Gloria was given an infant as a reason to keep staying home. 

[Christina87]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

Black women have worked since we were brought to this country. We had no choice; that was the point. That's why Alice Walker coined the term "womanism," because the whole "women want to work outside the home!" tenet of feminism didn't apply to Black women. What's always weird to me about working vs. SAHMs on TV is that on TV, the working woman is the only working woman she knows. In my social circle, I've known people who stopped working when they had kids but it's always been because day care costs a grip and it ate up the lower-earning-person's salary, so it made financial sense for that person to stop working (I do have a few SAHD friends, it's not just women). It wasn't out of a desire to stay home, and they usually go back to work, or try to, once kids are in school. Maybe they could hang on with one but if they had a second child before the first was about three, it made more sense for them to stop working. 

And yeah, if they want me to believe that it would be too hard/out of character for Kate to sit around until the baby is born, they ... need to start over with developing her character, TBH. They've gone out of their way to show that Randall literally works himself sick. Kevin seems to be the one who stumbles into success but works hard at opportunities when he gets them. Working on a sitcom is hard work that requires long hours and he was shown to work hard on the movie. I think he's the kind of person who needs to be doing something all the time (wasn't he bored in sobriety just sitting around after rehab?). Kate hasn't been shown to do any of that. When she got rejected to be a backup singer, the guy said he could tell she hadn't been putting in the work - going to open mics, singing anywhere and everywhere. And from what I can tell she still hasn't.

It's commonly diagnosed in the 20s and 30s but my mother was diagnosed with MS at 53. It's possible that Rebecca is just at the end of her life - she'd be in her 80s in the time in question, and that's a common time to die. (3/4 of my grandparents died in their 80s.)

She does look her real age. They're running into the issue that sometimes happens with child actors where they're aging past their characters - especially if the show takes places over a short period of time (see: Walt from Lost).

You are sooooo right about every word in your post!!!! I love how you analyzed the big three and their work ethics, because you did a wonderful job. IMO, even giving Kate a work ethic NOW would be more believable than the route they have gone. 

Toby: don't worry about working. You can relax until the baby gets here!

kate: but I couldn't not have a career!

toby: what career are you referring to?

kate (indignant): my singing career!!!!!

toby: honey, that's a hobby. Look, I'll support whatever you want to do. I just don't think RIGHT NOW is the time for you to suddenly start wanting to work. I'm happy to take care of everything until after the baby gets here. We're lucky we can afford to do so. 

It would be seen as sexist, but it would be so much more realistic  

Over the next few months, we see Kate realizing how hard her brothers work. We have flashbacks to Rebecca's gigs, where teen Kate disrespectfully minimizes them. Slowly, Kate comes to the realization that she is doing the EXACT same thing. 

When the baby has safely arrived, Kate decides to jump in and do the hard work of childrearing, to prove to herself she is not lazy. She is also appreciative of Toby for making this possible. 

When the baby is a few years old (because we know infants on TV get aged fast), she had a concrete plan for beginning a real career. It may or may not involve school. I'd love to see Kate DEVELOP a work ethic, instead of insulting hard working audience viewers by pretending she's such a hustler already  

[preeya]

Hasn't the subject of needing a college degree to teach been explained more than enough?

[albinerhawk]

I'm trying to decide if the writers have completely abandoned the original idea of Randall or if he was always this insufferable. When we were first introduced to him, he was presented as a workaholic but with the ultimate aim of providing a good home for his wife and children. There was some vulnerability shown when he felt a little down during the first season when William mentioned protesting for the buses, but Randall's life in a white family was rather sheltered. As a teenager, Randall delayed his dream of going to college by staying behind to take care of family after Jack's death. Is this perhaps Randall acting out after always putting family first and perhaps having a second childhood? Is Beth telling Randall that basically he needs to be a grown up again and take care of family first?

Also someone needs to point out that there are many, many ways to help the community other than being a councilman. He can start a non-profit to help at risk kids. He could volunteer regularly at soup kitchens. It's also a lot easier to donate to charities when you actually have a job.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, sasha206 said:

And it seems the catalyst was her daughter potentially coming out.  So *this* requires him to quit?  Seems like a terrible message to send to your kid -- you come out and now I force your dad to quit his political career.  That implies that her possibly being gay is a bad thing that has to be dealt with and requires your dad to quit politics.  

I think Beth listed Deja and Tess, him out campaigning, her looking for a job and them being financially stretched, it wasn't just Tess.  A few weeks ago she said she wasn't OK.  They could pre-empt Tess getting the wrong idea by just talking and dispelling that notion.  But it looks like that's not going to happen, Randall seems to be full speed ahead. 

[ams1001]

9 hours ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

 Sitting in a confined space like a car is totally different.

Plus, driving itself can be stressful and up your blood pressure. Exhibit A: my trip to work yesterday, which only involves maybe a total of ten minutes on anything I would call a highway – and a far cry from what I've heard about LA freeways – but did involve some people who should probably just stay home. 

 

9 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I always give neutral baby shower gifts anyway so it makes no difference. 

I always pick something from their registry and add some books that I love (Sandra Boynton's Hippopotamus board books are some of my go-tos; my mom always gives The Sneetches by Dr. Seuss). Because then I know it's something they want/need and every baby needs books. :)

 

5 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

I wasn't arguing, just relating what it's like in my area. It still makes no sense that Kate never bothered to check the job requirements before interviewing.

I think it makes even less sense that the principal didn't ask for a resume first, or if he did, didn't notice that it listed no degree or particularly relevant work experience.

 

5 hours ago, Eureka said:

Delaware and NJ are next to each other. So, given the fact that they are always running back and forth a couple hours to Philly, going to Delaware is probably something they would just do, you know, after school ;). 

Heh, yeah, my friend lives in PA, about 25 miles south of Philly, but her kids go to school in Delaware (school's only about 10 minutes from their house). If Philly's an hour for them (according to a line from Deja), surely Randall can get to Delaware in an hour-ten, tops. (Never mind that when said friend lived in Newark, DE, years ago, it took me an hour and a half from central NJ to go visit her. I guess I drive slow.)

 

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

Rebecca is the age of my mother and my mother worked full time and it was really not all that uncommon. 

I'm 5 years older than KK&R and my mom worked always. Full time (office job) until my brother was born, part time (retail/food service) while we were young (evenings before we were both in school, so she left after my dad got home, and then morning/early afternoon so she was home after school), then a full time office job again, once I was old enough to be home alone after school if necessary (my brother was usually home, though). I don't know how much her income was really needed; they were fortunate to not have to worry about daycare, but I'm sure she didn't want to spend all day and night in the house with little kids, either. She's a fairly social person (not a trait I inherited); I can see her wanting a job just for her own sanity.

 

4 hours ago, Violetgoblin6 said:

1. The guy who plays Nicky appeals to me for some reason. Also love Griffin Dunne. 
2. Tess is only ten? I knew "The Twenties" took place in 2008, but it just hit me that she is ten. Looks, acts older. 
3. Mark my words. Rebecca's aches and pains are going to come back. Chekhov's gun. 
4. The whole family is attractive, gorgeous (except Toby and Randall, sorry! His body is hot...) 

1. Not familiar with Griffin Dunne, but Michael Angarano played Jack's son on Will & Grace so he's, like, 12, in my mind.
2. The actress is 13, so that's probably part of it.
3. I wanna point out that she's of an age where arthritis is pretty common, so aches and pains aren't surprising, but... yeah, probably.
4. 8-10yo Randall is the cutest Randall (though teen Randall has the best smile) but I don't quite see that kid growing into teen/adult Randall (he has lighter skin and a slightly rounder face). But boxer-briefs Randall is certainly nice to look at. (And now the word "Randall" looks really weird.)

 

2 hours ago, sasha206 said:

And it seems the catalyst was her daughter potentially coming out.  So *this* requires him to quit? 

I feel like they're treating it as if Tess is in some kind of crisis. She might be confused and figuring things out, but it's not like she's in any imminent danger. And while maybe her parents' reaction wasn't completely ideal, it seems like she knows she can talk to them when she's ready, and she knows her grandmother is accepting (might not trust her aunt anymore, though). Tess's issue isn't really a "you need to quit right now and be home for your daughter" kind of situation. (Though I do agree he should be a little more focused on his own family (and the somewhat troubled teenager he insisted on bringing into it) and not so consumed with a community two hours away that he's never even lived in, and stop picking up huge projects just to apparently drop them when the next thing comes along.)

 

2 hours ago, Violetgoblin6 said:

Seriously. When my siblings and I were born you couldn't even find out. Oh, the horror. Sorry, just society these days baffles me. 

I was born in 1975; a very quick google suggests finding out the sex wasn't really common until at least the 80s. But my mom was having a girl and that was all there was to it. She* didn't even have a boy name picked out (she already had her boy, you see, exactly according to plan). I shudder to think how my life would have turned out if I'd had the audacity to be a boy. 😉

[*She had her plan; my dad didn't really have much say in our names. He and my brother have the same middle name, at least; I was named after her and her mother.]

[Sorry, this got long. I can read but not post while I'm at work so I have to save it until I get home.]

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, ams1001 said:

 

I'm 5 years older than KK&R and my mom worked always. Full time (office job) until my brother was born, part time (retail/food service) while we were young (evenings before we were both in school, so she left after my dad got home, and then morning/early afternoon so she was home after school), then a full time office job again, once I was old enough to be home alone after school if necessary (my brother was usually home, though). I don't know how much her income was really needed; they were fortunate to not have to worry about daycare, but I'm sure she didn't want to spend all day and night in the house with little kids, either. She's a fairly social person (not a trait I inherited); I can see her wanting a job just for her own sanity.

 

I'm a year older than the Big 3 and my mom worked too - until just before I was 12 when my dad took a job abroad.  Mom was in IT (yeah, during the Halt and Catch Fire era) and tried to get me interested (nope, nada...).  Many of my peers had moms who worked outside of the home as well.  Several girls I went to school with had moms who were lawyers and doctors while others had more "traditional" jobs like teaching.  To be fair, some were SAHMs until the kids were in school and then went back out to work (or went back to school to upgrade their skills and get better jobs).  Maybe differences are regional?  

What's the deal with Annie?  Will she have her own storyline?  It seems that she's really only there to be cute, which is unfortunate...

[Quickbeam]

10 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

 

Given that they have to travel quite a distance for Deja to see her mom

Delaware just isn’t that far from southern Jersey/Philly. As long as the Delaware Memorial Bridge is open, maybe an hour to Wilmington. Proud UD grad here. 

[chocolatine]

7 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think many writers are stuck in the mode that most middle class women choose to work as some sort of feminist statement (lower income women almost always had to keep working). The truth is that now a days women work because they have to in order to keep the household financially viable.

Exactly. Many of the middle class women I know have to work because their husbands make less money than them and/or are freelancers and don't have benefits. Also the cost of living in some areas is so high that a family needs two incomes if they want to live in a good school district and save for retirement as well as their children's education.

7 hours ago, Christina87 said:

Today, most women who have fabulous careers probably are doing them because they have a feminist, sky is the limit personality.

I don't know if my career qualifies as fabulous - I'm a senior level applied AI scientist/engineer, and I guess you can call that feminist because there are very few women in that field, but it's *much* harder to get to that level than just having a sky is the limit personality. There have been so many setbacks along the way - being blatantly undervalued compared to my male peers, being called "argumentative" for stating my (expert) opinions, being yelled at, harassed, and slandered by male professors/bosses. The only reason I've stuck with it is because I love what I do, I'm very good at it, and don't want to work on anything else.

6 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Apologies if I missed it, but why did Kate drop out with 8 credits to go? That's only 2-3 classes. 

IIRC in the 20s episode (which took place in 2008) Kate was still taking classes at age 28. My guess is that, after not getting into Berklee, she was never motivated about college and only did it part-time while working as a waitress. And when Kevin asked her to come out to LA and work for him, she probably quit college without a second thought.

[preeya]

59 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

Delaware just isn’t that far from southern Jersey/Philly. As long as the Delaware Memorial Bridge is open, maybe an hour to Wilmington. Proud UD grad here. 

True, but Alpine, NJ is not southern NJ. It's approximately a 2hr drive from Alpine to Wilmington.

[PRgal]

6 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Interesting.

I still regularly talk on the phone especially with my most inner circle. Im not surprised Tess would call her mother, especially because when one party is driving you can actually get a real time communication, rather than waiting for someone to read a text. And Beth would recognize her daughter’s name when it came up on her phone (but in this instance Tess called a work number not her cell). 

PS I’m 33 and my mom is the one person I always answer- daughterly duty and all. 

And I suppose in 2033, a "call" isn't a what we consider a call, but Skype.  Or whatever the "thing" to do then is.  

[DebbieM4]

Shame on Kate for betraying Tess' trust!  

And shame on Rebecca for handling it so clumsily!  She is the absolute worst at reading social cues from other people.  The last thing Tess wanted was to know that people had been talking about her.  These feelings she's having are new and confusing, and that's enough to deal with.   If Kate had to open her big mouth, then Rebecca should have just kept an eye on Tess and kept her own big mouth shut.  If I were Tess, I would not be happy with either one of them.

[DebbieM4]

On 11/28/2018 at 4:16 AM, Lily H said:

Beth is the one who should be sleeping on the couch. She has such an unpleasant personality.

Clearly, opinions vary.  Beth is my favorite character on this show, and has been from the beginning.  I don't see "unpleasant personality" with her at all, so I found your comment interesting.  I think she's loving and smart and witty and patient (VERY patient!), and devoted to her marriage and fiercely dedicated to their family.  She knows how to soothe and calm Randall, and she knows how to light a fire under him when that's what he needs to help him succeed.  He responds to her very well, especially when her nurturing side comes out.

IMO Randall clearly was in the wrong.  He not only very deliberately chose the election over his family, but he broke a promise that he had made to Beth.  Family and their marriage is supposed to be a priority - He's always been clear about that.  Up until now.  So she has every right to be angry, and she handled it all very calmly.  He had promised to pull out of the campaign if it ever became an issue for them, and he broke that promise.

[fsuheater]

On 11/28/2018 at 3:35 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Just as a point of interest I think some of my Crimonology professors in university were simply lawyers.  I found it fine but it's interesting to note.  I am not sure what the requirements are before you become a university professor.  I guess I haven't thought about it explicitly.

Those are called adjunct professors. It’s very common. They are not tenured full-time college professors and it is much lesser pay, since it’s not their primary job. They are full-time legal practitioners, who take on a class or two as a side gig to mentor, etc. I once had the Solicitor General of the Attorney General for the state (the attorney’s attorney, if you can believe that), who was serving as an adjunct. Full-time job not teaching. And he was awesome.

[DebbieM4]

On 11/28/2018 at 5:07 PM, saber5055 said:

 

Then the Tess scenes. Geezy pete, go moping around like your dog just died. What's up with that? I can see her doing the moping though after it sunk in that she shared a secret with Kate. THAT'S a huge mistake for sure. Meanwhile: You are in middle school, who gives a care about whether you like boys or girls or neither. Do kids really dwell on such things at such a young age? I was so busy with doing things that I never gave sex or boys (or girls) a thought even during high school.

Personally, I'd rather have a gay daughter than a straight daughter. Times ten.

Middle-school age is exactly the age when kids care about liking boys or girls, whether boys or girls like them, etc.  It's when kids start to become far more aware of thing like that, and it's when insecurities and uncertainty set in.  Hormones kick in, emotions run high and low, they get all hyped up, then they're sullen, and every little slight is the end of the world.   They worry about being popular, having the right friends, how they're perceived by others, etc.  Struggling with what Tess is struggling with at this age is very, very difficult.  And yes, kids of that age most certainly do "dwell on such things".   For a large part of every day.

 I wonder why you would so much prefer to have a gay daughter.  Why/how is that better than a straight daughter?  I believe that we love who we love, and should be free to do so.  Without feeling encumbered by the wishes of our parents.   

19 hours ago, gameshowjunkie said:

This is something I've thought about a lot as I have a teenage son. I 100% believe people are born the way they are and strongly support gay rights. But as a parent, you hate to see your kids hurt. And while i wish the whole world were supportive of the LGBTQ community, they're not. Progress has been made but still a long way to go. So I saw Beth's reaction as being totally supportive of Tess but heartbroken knowing that being gay may mean a more difficult life for her daughter.

I saw what you saw.  As the mother of a gay son, I know that feeling well, and I thought she captured it beautifully.  Just the look on her face said it all.

[DebbieM4]

6 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

Delaware just isn’t that far from southern Jersey/Philly. As long as the Delaware Memorial Bridge is open, maybe an hour to Wilmington. Proud UD grad here. 

They don't live in south Jersey.  They live in Alpine, which is northern NJ.  It can easily take over 2 hours to get to Delaware, probably longer.  And that's without traffic.  I live in northern NJ, and there is always traffic!  So it's not a short trip at all.

Edited November 30, 2018 by DebbieM4