S04.E09: The Watchers On The Wall 2014.06.08

[vesperholly]

 

I thought they were hinting at Olenna being his great love.

 

This lines up with what Olenna said to Margaery earlier this season, that her family had set her up with some awful Targaryen boy.

[Haldebrandt]

Glad we got a "husband to bears" shoutout, though still no HAR! nor any "member" talk. I want the legend of his member, godsdamnit.

That scene didnt work for me as this Thormund is entirely too dour to be telling that story.  A very minor case of butterlfy effect.

 

Credit where it's due, far fewer cliches than I had feared.

 

It really was a tremendous technical achievement.

[Pete Martell]

That's exactly the problem, though - it's kind of a cheat to make the Wildlings only sympathetic when they're on the same side as the protagonists. Jon's story in S3 arc should have been a Donnie Brasco on ice - where we can't but help humanizing the wildlings even if we consciously understand them to be dangerous and brutal. I'm not a book purist, but turning the Thenns into Cannibals instead of being a cultural offshoot of the Northerners really robs the story of a lot of depth that we needed. (I always imagined the Thenns as being a Northern clan driven into exile after losing to the Starks thousands of years ago).

 

The odd part is it seems like we may be going back to more sympathetic Wildlings, with Mance back. Perhaps they changed things this season so we'd know who to root for in the battle.

 

I felt like season 2 and early season 3 had somewhat sympathetic Wildling portrayals, then they became this dirty group who had Jon/Ygritte as their NOTP, and so much attention went to the skeevy warg guy.  I wonder if any material was trimmed down because of Kit's ankle injury.

[ambi76]

This lines up with what Olenna said to Margaery earlier this season, that her family had set her up with some awful Targaryen boy.

 

That would be one big depature (timeline wise) from the books, because there Olenna is around 65 and Aemon 102.

[RapBert]

Oh boy. On the one hand, the fight scenes and visuals were great. I also really liked the music in this one. Several badass moments for everyone.

 

On the other hand, where the fuck was Stannis? The one thing I was really looking forward to, and then they leave it out.

[patchwork]

While I don't mind the NW chapters in the books or the their scenes in the show they've never been my favourite. There just isn't enough variety of characters to keep me invested in what's happening let alone for the entire episode. It's not a bad episode but I doubt I'll ever re-watch it.  

 

I'm surprised it didn't end with Stannis showing up. I knew it was unlikely but I was hoping Ygritte wouldn't die, that she would take over the role of Mance's daughter from the books. The romantic in me loved that the circumstances just went poof and Jon smiled when he saw her. The actress wasn't given a lot to work with other than sassy love interest but she endeared Ygritte to me and I'll miss her. 

[cosmic1]

I thought that Gilly killed the one who came into the room? Was that Slynt? He looked dead to me.

I was disappointed that the whole episode was at the wall, but I guess it had to be. It was well done. I am looking forward to the finale.

[ElizaD]

RIP, Grenn and Pyp, I'll miss you. They weren't major characters, but they were good guys that it was always nice to see for a moment.

 

Mammoths and giants and a giant scythe, hell yeah. I don't like how they structured the episode, but the action was great.

 

Stannis' big hero moment is going to get buried by the other shockers in 4x10. Maybe they didn't want a repeat of the Blackwater with Tywin coming to the rescue or the names of the Stannis/Davos actors in the credits spoiling the ending, but still, devoting a whole episode to the battle without concluding it and freeing space in the finale for all the other major character/plot developments was a poor choice. It's like the battles of ice and fire being moved from ADWD to TWOW: not as bad since we only have to wait a week rather than a few years for the climax to all the buildup, but not good either. This year's episode 9 changed nothing about the status quo; with Stannis' arrival it would have ended with a bang. Now it was good action and nice character moments with minimal plot advancement.

 

Comparing the two battles, Blackwater was better as an overall episode, but this one had better action and some actual tension since named characters died. If Mance/Stannis had been included (perhaps by moving scenes from the first 15 or so minutes to earlier episodes) The Watchers could have been epic.

[Helena Dax]

I never thought I'd say this, but I found it boring. A lot.

[KatWay]

I really wish we would have gotten the Stannis conclusion this episode. Next ep is going to be really, really busy. I mean, whoa. 

I guess it might have felt too similar to the Tywin rescue in Blackwater (by the way, GRRM uses that a lot doesn't he?).

I wish they could have used Ygritte as Val later on, but oh well. Her death scene was pretty good.

 

Jon Snow just isn't that interesting to me, books or show. And Kit Harrington isn't really helping matters, as pretty as he is.

 

I did love when they played a version of the opening credits during the battle scene.

[Haleth]

It was so dark and with everyone in black it was hard to tell the good guys from the bad.  I really wish the episode had ended with Stannis riding in to save the day.  I can see why the writers wanted Jon to have his victory without help from Stannis, but it would mean we could be through with the Wall for the season.  Leave episode 10 for the other storylines that need a season ending. 

 

It wasn't till I read a post here that I remembered the blown up staircase from the book.  That would have been awesome.  In the beginning I kept waiting for Jon to suggest the straw men and I'm a bit disappointed it didn't happen. 

 

I love that Thorne's character was not assaulted.  Yeah, he can be a stubborn jerk but his speech was rousing and showed him to be a true man of the Watch.  Opinion seems to be split as to whether or not he died.  I'm thinking he must live to challenge Jon for Lord Commander.

 

I thought that Gilly killed the one who came into the room? Was that Slynt? He looked dead to me.

 

No, he was just cowering in the corner.

[Independent George]

Someone pointed out in the other thread that it would have been better to have made this E8, and The Mountain and the Viper E9, for precisely the reasons we're harping about in both threads: we all had so much more vested in Tyrion's trial than we did at the wall, and leaving a three week gap between the trial by combat and the resolution is rather jarring. 

 

Really, though, I still don't think the attack on the wall was worthy of an entire episode to itself. I stand by my conclusion that it's a great technical achievement, but lacked the emotional resonance of Blackwater because we just weren't as attached to the characters.

[blixie]

 

I thought most of this one was really well done, but I did miss the collapsing staircase. What I liked about that in the book was that it provided a clear and believable explanation for how the Watch prevailed. Here, the whole time it looked like they were losing the battle at the south gate, and then after Jon killed Styr it just . . . ended and they had won.

 

Me too I loved that part, though the giant Scythe made up for it a bit (I don't remember them having/using that in the book). I did find this episode pretty meh, but I think it was still a good choice to collapse both attacks into ONE big well planned attack, but man again with the weird choice not to have the Stannis Cavelry come in at the end, or even show Jon meeting Mance as a better cliff hanger.

 

I was seriously bummed we lost both Pyp and Grenn, and The Magnar, if they had killed Tormund too I'd have been capslock of rage. 

 

The giants and their mammoths looked great, and I thought the Wall fight worked better than the Castle Black fight, the lack of the staircase smashing, and the way it seemed like they were losing until Jon killed Styr and then it was over in the next scene. Um, okay.

[Avaleigh]

Re: the idea that Maester Aemon might have been talking about Olenna Tyrell---

The only reason this doesn't work for me (apart from their book ages) is that this would mean smart Olenna chose Mace's idiot father over nice guy Targ when the Targs were still in power and I can't really imagine why she'd do that.

[ffaristocrat]

The show already cut out a generation of Targs between Aemon and the Mad King so he and Olenna being the same age could work.

[benteen]

I'm thinking that going forward, Thorne will replace Bowen Marsh ("For the watch"), but that before then, he will support Jon Snow for his actions in this battle. As such, we may be spared the drawn out Lord Commander's election process, Sam's shuttle diplomacy between Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower and all the attendant nothingness that accomplishes. For a 10-hour/year adaptation that's probably best, too.

 

Glad we got a "husband to bears" shoutout, though still no HAR! nor any "member" talk. I want the legend of his member, godsdamnit.

 

Count me as one who loved how Grenn the lads went out, holding the gate. I was shouting my vows at the TV over top of them.

 

Glad Dolorous Edd survived so he can complete his block-fetching duties--which will be even sweeter after seeing Slynt in action tonight, but I would have loved hear him tell Grenn the story of Watt and the Bridge of Skulls. So perfectly Eddelicious.

 

I think what you're saying is right.  While you can buy Thorne stabbing Jon, I don't think you could introduce Bowen Marsh for the first time now and expect it to be effective.  I think Thorne earned some serious points with the audience tonight for his defense of The Wall.  I think too that Thorne supports Jon as Lord Commander and then finds himself at odds with his Wildling policy.  He'll have even more reason to hate them since he was nearly killed during the battle by Tormund.  Thore on one side and Tormund on the other...could be a great dynamic.  If word gets out regarding Slynt's cowardice during the battle, there's no way he can be a viable candidate for Lord Commander.  Sam's diplomacy is a nice touch but he grew a lot in this episode so I don't think he needs these scenes that much.  He can still be the one to put Jon's name forward as Lord Commander.  The most important choice for early next season is whether Jon will become Lord of Winterfell or stay and lead the Night's Watch.

 

Will the Watch get new members though?  There aren't many left.  Probably from the Wildling ranks.

Edited June 9, 2014 by benteen

[mac123x]

I actually yelled at the TV when Pip died, especially since Ygritte killed him.  I couldn't wait for her to die.  As soon as the Littlest Archer showed up in the "previously on" segment I knew he'd be the one to kill her. 

 

I have a feeling they killed off all the familiar faces (except Edd thankfully) so we can a have "the lonliness of command" wangst storyline for Jon next season after he sends Sam to the Citadel.

 

There were a few decent bits of humor, like Maester Aemon getting sarcastic with Sam, Sam's very polite request that Pip open the gate,  Ygritte dying in Jon's arms....

 

Overall, though, I wasn't impressed.  I had too many logic problems:

 

1.  100 Nights Watch defenders, at least 25 of whom are up on the Wall, so maybe 75 below, defending against a 100 or so wildlings.  Defenders were dropping like flies in the first 5 minutes of the attack, yet the battle below was still raging at the end of the episode

 

2.  A couple of giants hook up a mammoth to the gate to pull it loose.  All the while, the defenders on top of the wall are ... sitting there doing nothing.  I kept yelling "drop stuff on them!".  No no, let's wait until they've nearly pried the gate loose before doing anything about it.

 

3.  I loved the scythe, but Mance was an idiot sending people up the wall directly below the defenders.  They should have gone a mile or two down wall and climbed it the night before, then attack along the wall while everything else is going on. 

 

I think the most damning thing I can say about it is that it's the first episode I didn't bother to watch the second showing.

[OakGoblinFly]

It was very well choreographed. Man, I hate that both Grenn and Pyp died.

Shoot, are they going to end the season with Stannis's arrival?

 

Me too - those deaths had the emotional punch/resonance missing from the Ygritte's death.

 

Well, next week's episode description does state "unexpected help arrives at the north"

And who knew I would end up liking Thorne?

 

 

I know - I found myself hoping he wouldn't die and thought "wait, when did I want him to do well" ----- I like the layers they put on Thorne.  Yes, he's a tough old bastard, but he;s a tough old bastard who really believes in his duty.  There's precious little of that in what's become of the Night Watch. 

[benteen]

Yeah, I was wondering too what the hell they were doing on top of the Wall when those giants were trying to break through.

[OakGoblinFly]

Jon Snow was so sexy in this episode, when Ygritte died in his arms I teared up. She hesitated, like her dad said if she wanted him dead he'd be dead. She could have easily shot him.

I was sooooo sad about Pip and Grenn! Such adorable characters!

Can't wait for next weeks episode! In the previews for it I caught a glimpse of Tyrion peering thru a hole..... What does he see? I am so curious how they will show it going down.

 

 

What is it about a boy with a sword that makes me swoon?

 

My heart must be as cold and hard as The Wall because I felt nothing when Ygritte died (though it was beautifully lit).  I thought the entire episode, flaws and all was beautiful filmed - so many of the shots were simply gorgeous.

 

 

I found the deaths of Pyp and Grenn much more impactful as Thorne trying to continue the fight despite being wounded and dragged away by his men.

[Attaboy000]

This was one of those episodes that just makes me wonder wtf the producers are thinking, especially with Jon himself deciding to go "assassinate" Mance. That makes no sense whatsoever. And I would be ok with one of Pyp or Grenn dying, but killing them both off just leaves nobody familiar at the Wall now. At least in the books we have a consistent supporting cast, for the most part. In the show it seems like secondary characters are not important to the plot at all.

 

I swear sometimes this show is so face-palmingly stupid.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Attaboy000

[OakGoblinFly]

For me the King's Landing story this season has never really had momentum. It's been a lot of things happening, then Tyrion sitting in jail pondering life, then a lot of things happening. I don't know if they did that deliberately so that the cuts away from the Lannister group would have less impact, or if it's just that that Cersei/Jaime scene derailed much of what I was feeling in the first two episodes, but it's not one of those stories where I mind lengthy scenes (or even entire episodes) which focus elsewhere.

 

I liked the break from the other stories (if I had to see another week of Arya and The Hound marching in a circle I may have thrown a  shoe at the TV), but I wish they'd cut down a little on the earlier love life scenes in the episode, so we could see more of the battle aftermath. 

 

 

 

 

I agree about the Kings Landing story lines lacking momentum - there seemed to be little of the political scheming - that has gone on in early season not to mention witnessing the continued degeneration of Joffrey.  This season it seems that Kings Landing had two major events (Purple Wedding, Viper-Mountain fight) and not much else ... oh certainly there were wonderful bits here and there, the lovely scene between Tyrion and Oberyn being one ... yet as a whole something felt off.  

 

I rather enjoyed this episode - granted there were some eye rolling moments, however on the whole I enjoyed it.  I like how Sam grew a back bone, Jon turned into a leader, and Thorne (bastard that he is) really does believe in the NIght's Watch.  I liked the little touches like Hob taking on the Wildings with a meat clever and Ghost finally getting into battle.

 

I only wish Stannis showed up this episode -- the powers-that-be could certainly have turned a single episode into two or more night battles (I think that would have done wonders to show how ragged/worn down the Night's Watch is and why they're so relived when Stannis shows up to save the day).  Even with the extra ten minutes in next week's episode, I fear that the Stannis development will get lost - especially since the show really likes to end its seasons on Dany and her dragons.

I got angry at Sam when he released Ghost. I was so scared. I'm glad nothing happened to him. 

 

Seeing him ripping throats out was very satisfying. I wish he'd paid Janos Slynt a visit.

 

 

Sam released Ghost because Jon told him too ..... that whole "I need him more than I need you" comment was about Ghost.

Edited June 9, 2014 by OakGoblinFly

[Tryangle]

Kind of unfortunate that Donal Noye's role battling the giant got shifted to Grenn, but I suppose it was part of the character-trimming process. Reciting the Night Watch vows when the giant was stampeding towards them was powerful stuff.

[jeansheridan]

I loved in the book version how Jon looks for a red headed corpse and finds her dead.  It felt sad and random.  Brutal end to a tough life.

 

The problem is these characters are vague and not well known other than Jon and Sam and Ghost.  Not seeing Mance at all was a mistake.  Ciaran Hinds would have sold their strategy and POV.  

 

I don't love Sam all that much.  I knew he wouldn't die but I didn't care.  I didn't care about anything and in fact felt bad for the giants because they seemed like beasts sent in for the slaughter.  

 

This has been an off season.  It is the first season when I have not wanted to watch the episodes over and over.  How did it derail so badly?  The opening ep was the only great one.   

Edited June 9, 2014 by jeansheridan

[Pete Martell]

 

Sam released Ghost because Jon told him too ..... that whole "I need him more than I need you" comment was about Ghost.

 

I know. I was still angry though. Not really a rational reaction on my part.

This was one of those episodes that just makes me wonder wtf the producers are thinking, especially with Jon himself deciding to go "assassinate" Mance. That makes no sense whatsoever. And I would be ok with one of Pyp or Grenn dying, but killing them both off just leaves nobody familiar at the Wall now. At least in the books we have a consistent supporting cast, for the most part. In the show it seems like secondary characters are not important to the plot at all.

 

I swear sometimes this show is so face-palmingly stupid.

 

In terms of supporting cast at The Wall, I feel like pretty much everyone but Sam has barely been seen anyway. They stopped trying to develop the group after the first season.

 

I guess they may feel that we shouldn't care about any of the Watch but Sam and Jon. Or perhaps the boy who killed Ygritte is going to take over more of that role. Or Stannis' group. Or Jon having no allies is to set up the later violent attack he faces from within the ranks. 

 

It's tough to say. For some reason the show, as you mentioned, isn't interested in a supporting cast, aside from a few at King's Landing.

[kulfi]

It was as I expected - I was a little bored but I knew the scene/fight had to happen so I was resigned to watching a dark hour of TV where I had to rewind and freeze frame to see who died and when.  I was bummed at the loss of Pyp and Grenn, though Grenn's was in keeping with the story a bit more and he took the place of the armorer Bowen Marsh.  I'm just glad Edd made it.  The only thing I wanted was for Stannis to show up but I gave that up when I didn't see Stephen Dillane in the credits. 

 

I thought it was a little too much Sam, but what we got was better than BookSam, so I was OK with it.  And yes! his best scene was with Maester Aemon.  Love that guy! 

 

And I do hope BAD THINGS happen to Janos Slynt.  The scabrous, cowardly dog!  I was surprised at how much I liked Alliser Thorne, both character and actor for the first time in 4 seasons!   I kind of hope he's not dead.  And I kind of hope they give the character this depth and layering going forward.  This is more worthy than the one-dimensional stuff we had before where it was all "Lord Snow thinks he's all that!" 

[Hanahope]

I agree that the Wall fight should have included a scene with Mance explaining some of the strategy.  I also missed Stannis coming at the end, but I agree its nice to give Jon more of a 'success' before Stannis really has to save their butts.  They had some time at the end of this episode, so I don't know why they didn't add a little bit more.  It will definitely be a jammed packed episode next week.

 

That said, terrific battle scenes.  Character development, eh. 

 

I also believe the writers were hinting at an Aemon/Oleanna coupling that didn't continue, although at first I thought, is there another unknown Targareyn out there from Aemon's woman?  But Oleanna, if it was her, surely knew how to avoid that.  Certainly TV watchers will not consider the book's age difference between the two, since on TV they both look to be nearish the same age.

[Andeleisha]

As a person who usually finds battle scenes a snooze, I was pleasantly surprised that I actually found this an entertaining hour of television. 

 

But like everyone else, I found the episode emotionally unsatisfying. I know that we are all backseat drivers here with the benefit of hindsight (or, to quote ser Alliser, "clever twats") but what were the writers/directors THINKING with this episode? Everything people have been saying about why this episode was a bad choice should have been forseeable: 

-The Wall has a boring plot to begin with

-The audience only has two characters they are really invested in there (Jon and Sam) 

-This season has emphasized Kings Landing

 

It's like they saw all that and went "Well, we know there is no plot or emotional or logical reason to do this episode, but we really want to do some cool CGI, so we'll just make that really awesome to make up for it." Which might have been fine for a normal episode, but the audience has been conditioned to expect the best in Episode 9, so they had absurdly high expectations that they then disappointed. 

 

And STILL, with all of that, this episode could have been made so much better by Stannis showing up the end. One of the things I missed from the books was the sense of how the battle for the wall was ENDLESS, it went on for days, so that the terrifying became your everyday reality. All they had to do to redeem this episode was to have Mance keep attacking: why the fuck would his, what, 90,000 men (and that's being generous and assuming the Night's Watch really repelled 10,000 men the first time) "rest" during the day? Just when Jon and Sam are facing the cold hard light of day, Mance sends another wave, the men of the Night's Watch stoically preparing to face another wave...maybe Jon makes a nice speech, maybe he still decides to go out to negotiate with Mance, although I could live without that because it makes no sense...and just when you are preparing to watch everyone bravely die against impossible odds...STANNIS!! 

 

Instead, next week they are going to have to find a few precious seconds -- amid 10 other things happening people care WAY more about, like the Hound dying, and Tyrion NOT dying -- to build up to some emotional resonance worthy of Stannis' arrival. Pathetic. 

 

I also think they are going to regret killing off both Pyp and Grenn next season -- once Sam tromps off to Old Town, there will hardly be a familiar face at the Wall for Jon to Feel Distant From now that he's the Lord Commander. 

[ihartcoffee]

What is it about a boy with a sword that makes me swoon?

 

My heart must be as cold and hard as The Wall because I felt nothing when Ygritte died (though it was beautifully lit).  I thought the entire episode, flaws and all was beautiful filmed - so many of the shots were simply gorgeous.

 

 

I found the deaths of Pyp and Grenn much more impactful as Thorne trying to continue the fight despite being wounded and dragged away by his men.

I was shocked that I got emotional. Guess I'm a sucker for a Romeo and Juliet type story. She had just killed Pip! My emotions betrayed me.....

[ihartcoffee]

As a person who usually finds battle scenes a snooze, I was pleasantly surprised that I actually found this an entertaining hour of television. 

 

But like everyone else, I found the episode emotionally unsatisfying. I know that we are all backseat drivers here with the benefit of hindsight (or, to quote ser Alliser, "clever twats") but what were the writers/directors THINKING with this episode? Everything people have been saying about why this episode was a bad choice should have been forseeable: 

-The Wall has a boring plot to begin with

-The audience only has two characters they are really invested in there (Jon and Sam) 

-This season has emphasized Kings Landing

 

It's like they saw all that and went "Well, we know there is no plot or emotional or logical reason to do this episode, but we really want to do some cool CGI, so we'll just make that really awesome to make up for it." Which might have been fine for a normal episode, but the audience has been conditioned to expect the best in Episode 9, so they had absurdly high expectations that they then disappointed. 

 

And STILL, with all of that, this episode could have been made so much better by Stannis showing up the end. One of the things I missed from the books was the sense of how the battle for the wall was ENDLESS, it went on for days, so that the terrifying became your everyday reality. All they had to do to redeem this episode was to have Mance keep attacking: why the fuck would his, what, 90,000 men (and that's being generous and assuming the Night's Watch really repelled 10,000 men the first time) "rest" during the day? Just when Jon and Sam are facing the cold hard light of day, Mance sends another wave, the men of the Night's Watch stoically preparing to face another wave...maybe Jon makes a nice speech, maybe he still decides to go out to negotiate with Mance, although I could live without that because it makes no sense...and just when you are preparing to watch everyone bravely die against impossible odds...STANNIS!! 

 

Instead, next week they are going to have to find a few precious seconds -- amid 10 other things happening people care WAY more about, like the Hound dying, and Tyrion NOT dying -- to build up to some emotional resonance worthy of Stannis' arrival. Pathetic. 

 

I also think they are going to regret killing off both Pyp and Grenn next season -- once Sam tromps off to Old Town, there will hardly be a familiar face at the Wall for Jon to Feel Distant From now that he's the Lord Commander.

I agree, why waste a whole episode and not show stannis arriving? There are going to have to pack way too much into the finale.

[AuntiePam]

Remembered a third thing I liked about this episode:  When that guy came to get Janos Slynt off the top of the wall, saying he was needed down below.  "They need me down below?  Down there where I can hide?  Cool!  See ya, Snow -- you're in charge!"  That was sort of a shoutout to Joffrey leaving the action in Blackwater.  I did like that.

[OakGoblinFly]

I also think they are going to regret killing off both Pyp and Grenn next season -- once Sam tromps off to Old Town, there will hardly be a familiar face at the Wall for Jon to Feel Distant From now that he's the Lord Commander. 

 

 

I think the show could easily explore Jon's feelings of isolation/burden of leadership through his conversations with Melisandre.  

[Blue Nocturne]

One small thing I liked: Grenn telling Slynt that Thorne needed him downstairs, allowing Jon to actually lead the attack against the Wildlings.  That small smile between the two really sold just how much Grenn trusted Jon and how close they became. 

 

It also made Jon ordering Grenn to his death that much more heartbreaking.  That moment, more than Ygritte's death, really emphasized just how much Jon grew up that night.  I could practically see him age twenty years when he ordered Grenn to hold the gate.

[ambi76]

The show already cut out a generation of Targs between Aemon and the Mad King so he and Olenna being the same age could work.

 

Yeah, but there are two generations between them so not really. Would at least still be extremely far fetched. Even if Olenna is say 75 on the show and Aemon 90 and that's really as far as it could go in either direction IMHO. Then there is the problem with Olenna saying she found the proposed Targaryen horrible, doesn't make much sense at all.

Edited June 9, 2014 by ambi76

[DigitalCount]

That tunnel scene was crazy good. By the end of it I was reciting the words with them, and I didn't even know I knew the words. Maybe when all is said and done, Westeros can add a song to its repertoire, The Six at the Gate.

[tomorrowgirl]

Maybe I'm just getting tired of all the battle scenes and fighting, but I was bored with parts of this episode.  I was anxious to find out Tyrion's fate, and it was disappointing that there were no scenes involving him.

[BusyOctober]

I read the books (it was a while ago so I'm fuzzy on details) so I do know Stannis is coming to the rescue.  However did the TV version ever address that the NW asked Stannis for help?  I am sure they must have and I missed it.  Otherwise how will non-book readers understand why Stannis showed up? 

 

Another thing I remember from the books is a baby trade between Gilly and Mance's baby-mama.  Did they skip that or is that coming up when Jon gets to Mance's camp?  And have they addressed "The Gift" -what it is, what it means??  I guess I need to binge watch to make the "what about X?" voices in my head shut up.

 

I wish the finale was 90min or more to get to some of the WTF!! reveals.  Brienne/Cat, Tywin/Tyrion...it's very hard not to spill the spoiler beans to my non-reader husband.       

[blixie]

 

However did the TV version ever address that the NW asked Stannis for help?

 

It was the big ending flourish of S3, Davos tells Stannis the real fight is a the Wall in the North, and Melly Mel jumps on that like she invented it, and most  Unsullied assumed he'd be y'know AT THE WALL or headed there, but for some narrative reason they decided to act like Stannis couldn't afford to help them without going to the Iron Bank for backing, and they let that take all season long. It was another weird dumb weird choice. I'm sure they'll show both the end of S3 Clip and the IB clip before ep 10.

[mac123x]

I agree, why waste a whole episode and not show stannis arriving? There are going to have to pack way too much into the finale.

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.  I was expecting Stannis to ride to the rescue at the end also, and was prepared to be irritated because it would have been such a rehash of Blackwater:  desperate battle at night (to save on CGI costs) followed by a last minute rescue from an unexpected outside force.  I was pleasantly surprised they didn't do that, though I think it'll mean Stannis's arrival will get short shrift in the next episode since they have a lot of ground to cover elsewhere.

[Meredith Quill]

Shit, can you imagine a wight giant - or to take it a step further, what if the WW stole giant babies = giant WW's, OMG!

[riff-raff]

Not a great episode.   After it was over, my husband turned to me and said, "It's just like the books, everything starts out great and then just peters out."  

 

That rang true for me as well.   Great special effects and gorgeous cinematography -- just like great prose and world-building -- can't make up for a lack of emotional connection to interesting characters centered on a clear, focused plot. There were many missteps in this episode, some of which are the showr-unners fault, and some of which simply mirror the problems in the books:

 

1 -- Sam is just not an interesting enough character to merit the attention the books and show accord him.  I cannot get invested in Sam and Gilly and their whole story line seems pointless and implausible.   It reeks of filler and the more the plot slows down and more interesting characters are killed off, the more I resent it. 

 

 

2 -- Not a clear enough picture of why the Wildlings are attacking in the first place, or any sense of urgency on the Wall of readying their defenses.  The Night's Watch looked like the keystone cops trying to organize their defenses when the assault began.  This was a show-runner problem, as the books did a better job in this regard. 

 

3 -- Where are the Others?  Aren't they the big bad of the whole series?  How can we have a whole episode at the Wall, and no real mention of them.  They are a horror that threatens all of mankind, and yet they seem to be totally forgotten.

 

 

4 -- Devoting sooo much time on this battle and then not even closing the arc in the episode by having Stannis arrive.  Aside from the deaths of a few minor characters, we ended the episode in the same place as we began it -- an outnumbered Night's Watch waiting for a wildling attack.   Very unsatisfying, particularly for the penultimate episode.

 

5.-- Too much strained credibility.  I think we are expected to believe that Jon Snow single-handedly stopped what looked like sure-fire rout by the wildings.   Also, as others have pointed out, why were they not dropping things on the giant trying to get into the gate?   And, what's with all the flaming arrows?  They didn't light people on fire, so they only thing they seemed to accomplish was to let the person being fired on know it was coming in time to duck out of the way.     And exactly how many of the 100 or so NW are we supposed think are still alive now? 

 

 

I think that they talked themselves into believing that the huge amount of money and time that obviously went into filming this sequence justified highlighting it as a standalone episode.

Edited June 9, 2014 by riff-raff

[Fen]

I enjoyed this episode.  Jon Snow, Maester Aemon, Ser Alliser, Pyp, Grenn, Edd - all fantastic.  The action was good - and I was kept riveted until the end.  I found Pyp and Grenn's deaths much more moving than Ygritte's - though - and I'm not sure I was supposed to.

 

BUT - I feel like the Stannis thing might have been a major mis-step.  I'll reserve judgment until after the finale - because they may well pull it back and I'll look like an eejit - but a moment that really should have been huge now risks being absolutely buried amidst other storylines. 

[BookEater]

I thought it was a bit hit-and-miss, the battle was really well executed but the episode missed quite a few of the emotional beats that Blackwater had.

Thorne was outstanding, but what really got me was both Pyp and Grenn dying. Grenn being a Big Damned Hero, holding the tunnel and Pyp holding onto Sam because he didn't want to die alone, both of which I found really moving.

 

I was less fond of Ygritte and Jon staring endlessly at each other in the middle of a battle field, and would've preferred Jon finding her after the fight like the book. I will miss Rose Leslie though, who really played the part with gusto.

 

I do think the show has a real problem though, in that it doesn't spend enough effort building up the supporting characters, and now the Wall is going to be missing two of them next season. The same thing happened with Robb's storyline, with the effect that the Red Wedding wasn't nearly as devastating as it could've been because it had no supporting cast. If the show wants the audience to care about the Wall storyline then they need to introduce some new faces next season, either NW, Wildling or from Stannis' crew, and increase the presence of people like Edd for Jon to interact with. Otherwise I think they're storing up real problems for themselves.

[Holmbo]

I knew before I started watching this wasn't gonna be a new Blackwater for me. That one is probably my favorite episode of the entire show but it's not because of the fighting but because of the drama. So much awesome character growth and definement. This episode just didn't have enough characters to do the same.
More sad moments than in Blackwater though. As soon as Pyp died I was thinking that of course he would. He got way to many lines not to. I couldn't accept it until it happened though. I loved his line in the last episode about how he didn't think he could kill a hundred wildlings and how it tied in with him trying to be effective in battle.

Favorite part: The kid shooting Ygrite. Anticipated by many but still very effective IMO. That I've-got-your-back nod he gave to Jon was great.

Least favorite part: It ended too soon. I felt like they could had room for much more in the ep. I can see why they wouldn't want Stannis to come in and save the day because it would be to similar to Blackwater. But perhaps they should have made the battle half or two third of the episode and put a bit of some other story line in the start. I'm not sure if it would have worked. I'm just nervous about the episode finale. There's so much to fit in! And I really was hoping for some scenes to set up Tywin Shae. I don't think there'll be time for that.
By the way are discussions about previous allowed in this thread? Because in that case I'll have to watch myself so that I don't read them. I never watch those. And i really don't want to watch it for next episode.

I think what you're saying is right.  While you can buy Thorne stabbing Jon, I don't think you could introduce Bowen Marsh for the first time now and expect it to be effective.  I think Thorne earned some serious points with the audience tonight for his defense of The Wall.  I think too that Thorne supports Jon as Lord Commander and then finds himself at odds with his Wildling policy.  He'll have even more reason to hate them since he was nearly killed during the battle by Tormund.  Thore on one side and Tormund on the other...could be a great dynamic.  If word gets out regarding Slynt's cowardice during the battle, there's no way he can be a viable candidate for Lord Commander.  Sam's diplomacy is a nice touch but he grew a lot in this episode so I don't think he needs these scenes that much.  He can still be the one to put Jon's name forward as Lord Commander.  The most important choice for early next season is whether Jon will become Lord of Winterfell or stay and lead the Night's Watch.

 

Will the Watch get new members though?  There aren't many left.  Probably from the Wildling ranks.

 

It would add a very interesting dynamic to Thorne and Jon's relationship if Thorne stepped down and supported Jon in the election. This would make Jon owe him and perhaps feel required to listen to Thorne's opinion extra or explain his decision to him. First Jon might let himself be pushed around too much but then as he puts his foot down firmly it backfires with his men turning on him.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Holmbo

[Tippi]

I will miss Rose Leslie's red hair!  There was a brightness to her that appealed to me; so much of the show is dark, both in lighting and in tone.

 

The White Walkers should have attacked Mance's army from the north.  A surprise attack, kill a bunch of wildlings, and create more troops for their army once they re-animate. Though old Mance in his previous lifetime as Julius Caesar might have been able to handle that. (Rome reference.)

[kechara]

I read while watching so I guess I wasn't enthralled unlike in previous episodes. 

 I did like the scythe although I thought it was an anchor and was puzzled at the randomness of that.

I'm not a fan of the Sam and Gilly thing although I see that it's needed for future plot stuff.

Really hoping that next week is gripping.

[Avaleigh]

riff raff I thought the need for flaming arrows was supposed to be about visibility since it was a night scene.

Re: the Others I agree with you completely about the lack of mentioning them not making any sense considering they're supposed to be the main reason the wildlings have banded together.

[Pogojoco]

I read the books (it was a while ago so I'm fuzzy on details) so I do know Stannis is coming to the rescue.  However did the TV version ever address that the NW asked Stannis for help?  I am sure they must have and I missed it.  Otherwise how will non-book readers understand why Stannis showed up? 

 

Another thing I remember from the books is a baby trade between Gilly and Mance's baby-mama.  Did they skip that or is that coming up when Jon gets to Mance's camp?  And have they addressed "The Gift" -what it is, what it means??  I guess I need to binge watch to make the "what about X?" voices in my head shut up.

 

I wish the finale was 90min or more to get to some of the WTF!! reveals.  Brienne/Cat, Tywin/Tyrion...it's very hard not to spill the spoiler beans to my non-reader husband.       

Yeah, in the book, Mance has a wife named Dalla and a sister in law named Val. Dalla dies giving birth to their son during the Stannis battle. Jon is there for the birth (not shown), and he and Val take the baby to the Wall. So yeah, you haven`t imagined two babies. Stannis sees Val as a ``wilding princess`` because of her relationship to the King Beyond the Wall and also probably because she is really beautiful- Stannis sees her as a bargaining chip. He offers her hand in marriage to Jon when he offers him Winterfell. Stannis and company see that baby as the next king beyond the wall. 

 

I hope she and Dalla are in the tent with Mance when Jon shows up. Partly because I think the two have some nice words about why the Wildings want through the Wall- it`s not to raid or punish the Watch, but because they are getting their asses kicked by the White Walkers. Also, Val could potentially be someone dynamic for Jon to interact with next season (as she is pretty intelligent and witty in the book, disconcerts Jon), and someone else to put a face to the Wildings now that Ygritte is dead. I`m pretty fond of her. I`d also welcome a woman in the North that isn`t being raped in the background of scenes. 

 

Also, Jon threatening Gilly to agree to the baby switch that happens is a sign of Jon becoming a hard leader and willing to make difficult choices. 

Edited June 10, 2014 by Pogojoco

[Macbeth]

Stannis can not get any respect anywhere.  I feel the show blew it.  It was an opportune time to get the audience to root for Stannis instead of fast forwarding through his scenes. 

 

It is the one great thing Stannis does in the books, and it is going to get lost when Tyrion kills Twyin.

 

No respect.  Absolutely none.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Macbeth

[benteen]

I knew before I started watching this wasn't gonna be a new Blackwater for me. That one is probably my favorite episode of the entire show but it's not because of the fighting but because of the drama. So much awesome character growth and definement. This episode just didn't have enough characters to do the same.

More sad moments than in Blackwater though. As soon as Pyp died I was thinking that of course he would. He got way to many lines not to. I couldn't accept it until it happened though. I loved his line in the last episode about how he didn't think he could kill a hundred wildlings and how it tied in with him trying to be effective in battle.

Favorite part: The kid shooting Ygrite. Anticipated by many but still very effective IMO. That I've-got-your-back nod he gave to Jon was great.

Least favorite part: It ended too soon. I felt like they could had room for much more in the ep. I can see why they wouldn't want Stannis to come in and save the day because it would be to similar to Blackwater. But perhaps they should have made the battle half or two third of the episode and put a bit of some other story line in the start. I'm not sure if it would have worked. I'm just nervous about the episode finale. There's so much to fit in! And I really was hoping for some scenes to set up Tywin Shae. I don't think there'll be time for that.

By the way are discussions about previous allowed in this thread? Because in that case I'll have to watch myself so that I don't read them. I never watch those. And i really don't want to watch it for next episode.

 

It would add a very interesting dynamic to Thorne and Jon's relationship if Thorne stepped down and supported Jon in the election. This would make Jon owe him and perhaps feel required to listen to Thorne's opinion extra or explain his decision to him. First Jon might let himself be pushed around too much but then as he puts his foot down firmly it backfires with his men turning on him.

 

Owen Teale has been terrific as Thorne and his dynamic with Jon has always generated a lot of electricity.  I hope this is one change they make.