S09.E03: Warning Signs

[nodorothyparker]

Airdate 2018.10.21

Quote

Rick's vision for the future is threatened by a mysterious disappearance that divides the work camp where the communities are building a bridge.

[nodorothyparker]

Reminder: This thread is for discussion of the episode.   DO NOT talk about spoilers here.   That includes what may or may not be in the comics or news about casting comings and goings.  Discussion of that can be found in the Spoilers and Speculation thread.

[AimingforYoko]

I don't blame ya, Jadiss. I always thought he was a 'B', too. But he's grown a lot since then.

How far are Maggie and Daryl willing to go for Negan, I wonder? For that matter, how far is Rick?

[ShadowHunter]

Maggie and Daryl say it's time to see Negan lol. They were never that bright to begin with. 

Honest if I was around these people and I had to follow someone I pick Carol. 

Judith is a cutie. It was nice seeing the cute family stuff.

Do not care about Jadiss or Gabriel.  

[AngelaHunter]

Just now, AimingforYoko said:

I don't blame ya, Jadiss. I always thought he was a 'B', too.

So Jadis/Anne is still communing with the aliens or whoever and where the hell is she getting her eyebrows microbladed? "A" or "B" - Alpha or Beta? Definitely a "B", our Father Pee.

If TPTB are working hard to make Rick detestable, they can claim a stunning success. He's a mealy-mouthed, hypocritical asshole now. As long as he can pile into bed with his girlfriend every night, everyone can just quit their bitching, get over their snits and do whatever he says. Daryl mentions (finally) Glenn, Abe etc and what they might want. What does Rick care? They weren't his blood or his bed partners, so they can go pound sand. Rick probably killed more people than anyone yet when he pins on the "All life is precious" button, everyone else should agree. The Word of Rick prevails and Daryl hates him now too. Good. It's about damned time Maggie and Daryl decide to pay a little call on Negan.

[shanndee]

Well played Oceanside, well played! I am very happy to see them do what was necessary to get justice for everyone and everything they lost. And props to Maggie and Daryl for letting it play out.

Hmmm. Main characters interacting, a decent conflict, an unexpected (by me, at least) reveal about Oceanside...and NO Negan!

Dare I hope that this show *may* have turned a corner??

[AngelaHunter]

4 minutes ago, shanndee said:

Dare I hope that this show *may* have turned a corner??

I don't know, but it actually wasn't boring and predictable. That's big.

[mightysparrow]

5 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

So Jadis/Anne is still communing with the aliens or whoever and where the hell is she getting her eyebrows microbladed? "A" or "B" - Alpha or Beta? Definitely a "B", our Father Pee.

If TPTB are working hard to make Rick detestable, they can claim a stunning success. He's a mealy-mouthed, hypocritical asshole now. As long as he can pile into bed with his girlfriend every night, everyone can just quit their bitching, get over their snits and do whatever he says. Daryl mentions (finally) Glenn, Abe etc and what they might want. What does Rick care? They weren't his blood or his bed partners, so they can go pound sand. Rick probably killed more people than anyone yet when he pins on the "All life is precious" button, everyone else should agree. The Word of Rick prevails and Daryl hates him now too. Good. It's about damned time Maggie and Daryl decide to pay a little call on Negan.

Agreed!

I've thought Rick was an asshole for a long time but he's really outdoing himself now.  Rick's complete and total insensitivity is maddening.  ALL of Camp Dinner Bell devoted themselves to keeping his fucking children alive.  Some of them even died.  Now, it's like none of that even happened.  His daughter is safe, he's got a nice house and he's fucking a woman that is so far out of his league she's on another planet.  So the rest of the people who fought and bled with him can just fuck off. 

I never thought I'd ever say this but I'm ashamed of Michonne.  It's no surprise that Rick's an asshole but I can't believe that Michonne is content to spread her legs and CONTEMPLATE HAVING THIS ASSHOLE'S CHILD while her friends are suffering.  Glen was her friend and so was Maggie.  Michonne and Daryl spent time together searching for the Governor.  Does none of that mean ANYTHING TO HER?   Shame.

[Mu Shu]

17 minutes ago, shanndee said:

Well played Oceanside, well played! I am very happy to see them do what was necessary to get justice for everyone and everything they lost. And props to Maggie and Daryl for letting it play out.

Hmmm. Main characters interacting, a decent conflict, an unexpected (by me, at least) reveal about Oceanside...and NO Negan!

Dare I hope that this show *may* have turned a corner??

Yeah, except for Jadis back in the junkyard retrofitting another stupid Zombie gladiator.  

I thought the mystery killer was Dwight. 

[AngelaHunter]

8 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Rick's complete and total insensitivity is maddening. 

It so is! I bet his lama-like benevolance wouldn't exist had Negan bashed in his girlfriend's head. I was really wishing that when he giving Daryl the (I know he didn't say this but he may as well have) "Yeah, yeah - Glenn (without whom Ricky would have bought it in the first ep)Abe, whatever. Turn the other cheek, mah man. I decree the killing is over, so put that in your pipe and smoke it. Now I'm going home to screw my girlfriend. Laters, dude!" *wink wink* that Daryl would have punched him right in the face. After all they've been through together, Rick treats him this way. Jesus, Daryl feels so strongly about all this he even started talking again! Doesn't that mean anything to you, Rick the Prick?

[tennisgurl]

That was...actually a good episode! I thought the mystery was well done, and finding out that the Oceanside women were behind the deaths was surprising, but actually made sense (Oceanside probably has the biggest beef of all with the Saviors) and the way it was wrapped up was satisfying. Honestly, I was totally on their side. I cant say I could work side by side with the person who smiled as they murdered my eleven year old brother in cold blood, especially as they seemed to have faced no justice for what they did. Rick can prech forgiveness all day long, but he doesn't have to make small talk at the drinking fountain with people who laughed and made dick jokes as they slaughtered his family. You would think that, as Darryl said, that people they lost, like Abe, Glenn, and Sasha would have mattered more, but I guess not. 

Rick really has been an absolute prick about this. I can get wanting to move past the fighting, and all work together, and I have no problem with him letting the workers in the savior group come join everyone else with no real problems. But the soldiers who cheerfully followed Negans orders? And saying that all their former victims have to now work side by side with them, with only a slap on the wrist? He comes off as very uncaring about the people who are supposed to be his friends and allies, who suffered under these people. I dont know if murdering them all is the right answer, but, damn it, there needs to be something! And letting these people just run around, even after they have proven that they are STILL untrustworthy and violent, is just insane, especially for this community he wants to build. How can they possibly function as a peaceful community with these remorseless killers running around, who are clearly untrustworthy? And he seems so damn smug about it, even in the face of people like Maggie and Darryl, who have been with him for years now (Darryl has been his best friend and right hand for ages!), who are trying to make honest cases to him, and he just shuts them down. I hope this show ends with them starting some kind of governing body, because having Rick in charge has just become garbage. He seems to care more about his abstract dream than the people actually with him.

But, I liked seeing the shades of grey this week, and Maggie and Darryl leaving the Oceanside women to get their own justice. As soon as they said the woman had thrown out the "no exceptions" line, I knew she was dead. No way are they letting someone like that get away with it, after what happened with Abe and Glenn. Now I hope they dont ruin it by making them out to be these awful people after this.

So, Jadis is still untrustworthy? Go freaking figure. Poor Gabriel. I just hope she resists the urge to start speaking like an alien again. Maybe this whole "let in every psycho and sociopath in without any repercussions" plan wasn't so hot, Ricky boy?

[EllipticalAddicted]

Uh oh.   So Maggie and Glenn ooooops - I meant Daryl!!!   -  are headed to kill Negan.   Rick believes all lives are worth saving (or some sort of nonsense), even Negan's.   I have a bad feeling about someone sacrificing himself to defend someone who is indefensible and then that someone has a redemption.   I hope I'm wrong.

 

Michonne must be preggers.

Edited October 22, 2018 by EllipticalAddicted

[Donder]

Man, Rick has Michonne wrapped around his finger.............she's lost

[catrox14]

Sheesh, there was WAY TOO much time spent on the Oceanside people that I do not care about. And man, the acting during that execution scene by the side characters was so OTT and bad.  Maggie and Daryl...whatever. I'm tired of them both. 

Poor Father Pee Pants...and Jadis is the asshole I always thought she was...

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

They worked hard it.

IMO, they screwed up by making Carl be the one that wants everyone to get along.  IMO, Rick is trying to fulfill Carl's absurd last wishes.  It makes them both look bad.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

is show is still good at bringing the momentum to a grinding halt. They just had to get a few monologues in there, and yeah - badly acted ones.

I mean I would have thought Cyndie was a Savior for all her blabbing....LOL

[spiderpig]

Hi y'all.  I'm actually enjoying this season.  The plots are moving along.

Who was the guy in Maggie's wagon in the opening sequence?  I have horrible facial recognition and can't keep any of my sisters-in-law straight at family dinners.

Dunce that I am, I can see they are setting up Maggie and Daryl as a couple.

What's with Anne-now-Jadis-again and the helicopter?

[Macbeth]

7 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

 

Do not care about Jadiss or Gabriel.  

I do as we might finally find out about what is going on with that damn helicopter. 

I understand the argument that revenge killing has to stop.  But Negan has to die or you have no respect for the amount of needless carnage he left behind. When you are killing children and grandmothers you are not fit for society. 

Negan has to die as he will only start another group. As far as his enforcers, maybe you don't kill all of them but they can't stay there.  Oceanside is right in killing Arat. 

As for Rick, you would think he would have some empathy given how close Negan came to killing Carl. Long live Shiva. If he had killed Carl, no way Negan and his minions would have lived.  

Edited October 22, 2018 by Macbeth

[Anela]

7 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

It so is! I bet his lama-like benevolance wouldn't exist had Negan bashed in his girlfriend's head. I was really wishing that when he giving Daryl the (I know he didn't say this but he may as well have) "Yeah, yeah - Glenn (without whom Ricky would have bought it in the first ep)Abe, whatever. Turn the other cheek, mah man. I decree the killing is over, so put that in your pipe and smoke it. Now I'm going home to screw my girlfriend. Laters, dude!" *wink wink* that Daryl would have punched him right in the face. After all they've been through together, Rick treats him this way. Jesus, Daryl feels so strongly about all this he even started talking again! Doesn't that mean anything to you, Rick the Prick?

I haven't been watching, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who's pissed over this kind of attitude. Negan threatened his son, came into their home, sat his little girl on his lap as he taunted him, and he's still alive. If he threatened Michonne (now) you bet Negan would be dead. 

What is the rush to build a family? If they make Michonne pregnant, and then something happens... ugh. 

[Haleth]

I'm still angry this morning that they killed off Charles Vane Justin.  I thought he would be around a while as Rick's latest nemesis.  Not that I'm not sick of that same ol' scenario, but at least this one doesn't didn't talk much.  Such a waste of an interesting actor.

Rick really has his head up his ass if he thinks all the kumbaya, all life is precious stuff is going to last.  Negan is right about that.  Damn it.

I also thought the mystery of who was killing the saviors would last longer too.  Good for Maggie and Daryl for letting the Oceanside women mete justice.  Gleefully killing of children is appalling and there is no redemption from that.

[JackONeill]

Rick’s “take” on Negan is inexplicable. It is nothing like what we’ve seen from him.

I can’t remember the exact sequence of events but remember the Termites. Rick said, “Kill them.” Then he quickly added in that voice that only Rick (and Clint Eastwood) has: “Kill them all.” There was no mercy. None. And there were women included.

No one will ever be able to give me a rational explanation for what is causing this dramatic sea-change in Rick. 

[sigmaforce86]

Rick's error was not realizing the other groups experiences are different and worse than his.  He considered Oceanside least of all - The Kingdom was protected from Neegen by Ezekiel's deal to do all their "trades" away from the settlement, Hilltop had problems and deaths but they had the weasel Gregory knuckling under so their losses were more about supplies than people.  But Oceanside, who got stuck with Simon the Psycho, lost people the way Junkyard lost people, basically a slaughter.  Rick must know most of the story by now but (IMHO) between the time that's past since the men were killed and since they took down the Saviors plus the fact that he didn't experience those killings directly and they weren't people he'd ever even met he made the fatal mistake of thinking the women of Oceanside would be somehow happy to follow his Carl's vision, make happy friends with everyone and forget everything that happened.  How he could believe that one speech about mercy would make it all better for everyone is beyond me but it's coming back to bite them all in the ass now.

Jadis, the helicopter, the debt of one more "A" is interesting enough to keep me watching/wondering.  I have a suspicion who she talked to and not 

Spoiler

The Whisperers even though "A" could be for Alpha but I'm leaning toward The Commonwealth, makes more sense they'd have and use the technology

 

Questions - was there some deep meaning to the color red, some tie in between the tomato and Carl's grave and the one the Savior took from the cart?  If so I missed what they might be trying to say there but could be as simple as the same item used for good/evil or even simpler it's just a tomato and meant nothing.  Bigger question - why did Michonne appear to have blood on her arm when she was sitting in bed working, where did it come from and why did she quickly wipe it off when Rick came in the room?  And please don't make Michonne pregnant, not that a little Richonne baby wouldn't be adorable but it's just not the right direction for her right now.

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, sigmaforce86 said:

Rick's error was not realizing the other groups experiences are different and worse than his.  He considered Oceanside least of all - The Kingdom was protected from Neegen by Ezekiel's deal to do all their "trades" away from the settlement, Hilltop had problems and deaths but they had the weasel Gregory knuckling under so their losses were more about supplies than people.  But Oceanside, who got stuck with Simon the Psycho, lost people the way Junkyard lost people, basically a slaughter.  Rick must know most of the story by now but (IMHO) between the time that's past since the men were killed and since they took down the Saviors plus the fact that he didn't experience those killings directly and they weren't people he'd ever even met he made the fatal mistake of thinking the women of Oceanside would be somehow happy to follow his Carl's vision, make happy friends with everyone and forget everything that happened.  How he could believe that one speech about mercy would make it all better for everyone is beyond me but it's coming back to bite them all in the ass now.

Jadis, the helicopter, the debt of one more "A" is interesting enough to keep me watching/wondering.  I have a suspicion who she talked to and not 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Whisperers even though "A" could be for Alpha but I'm leaning toward The Commonwealth, makes more sense they'd have and use the technology

 

Questions - was there some deep meaning to the color red, some tie in between the tomato and Carl's grave and the one the Savior took from the cart?  If so I missed what they might be trying to say there but could be as simple as the same item used for good/evil or even simpler it's just a tomato and meant nothing.  Bigger question - why did Michonne appear to have blood on her arm when she was sitting in bed working, where did it come from and why did she quickly wipe it off when Rick came in the room?  And please don't make Michonne pregnant, not that a little Richonne baby wouldn't be adorable but it's just not the right direction for her right now.

The other huge flaw in Rick's vision is forcing the other groups to work side by side with the Saviors.  They might have been able to have peace and trade with them.  But, having to see the murderers of their friends and family members, every day, was way too much to put on the other groups, especially Oceanside.  It is a lot easier to forgive the enemy soldiers who killed your loved ones, when they are thousands of miles away, than when you have to work with them, and hear them talk trash.

The probably should have had some sort of war crimes tribunal to punish the Saviors, rather than just expecting everyone to forgive and forget.  

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Rick ought to change his name to Rosie Scenario.  He needs to do what is best for the living, not his dead son.

Those Oceanside folks shouldn't have been killing off the Saviors.  Where does the killing stop?  Now do those Saviors get to kill off those Oceanside folks that just killed their friends/relatives?

This is headed down the path of never ending vendettas.

And finally what a waste of an excellent actor.  There are so few on this show, but why the hell kill off Zach McGowan?

Poor decision by the writers and showrunner.

The problem is that Daryl and Maggie aren't thinking about the long term repercussions for killing Negan.  Maggie has a baby to think about, does she really want a never ending war?

They kill Negan, and that will put a target on Rick and the other leaders.

I think the long term repercussions of killing Negan would be positive.  Every halfway reasonable former Savior knows that he totally deserves to be executed.  Any Savior who is offended by Negan's execution has no place in the post "All Out War" world.   Killing Negan would give a sense of justice to his victims.  It might have even prevented the Oceansiders from killing the Saviors they killed.  When people believe there is no justice, they start to take the law into their own hands.  

[Mu Shu]

21 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Rick ought to change his name to Rosie Scenario.  He needs to do what is best for the living, not his dead son.

Those Oceanside folks shouldn't have been killing off the Saviors.  Where does the killing stop?  Now do those Saviors get to kill off those Oceanside folks that just killed their friends/relatives?

This is headed down the path of never ending vendettas.

And finally what a waste of an excellent actor.  There are so few on this show, but why the hell kill off Zach McGowan?

Poor decision by the writers and showrunner.

The problem is that Daryl and Maggie aren't thinking about the long term repercussions for killing Negan.  Maggie has a baby to think about, does she really want a never ending war?

They kill Negan, and that will put a target on Rick and the other leaders.

Oceanside killed the people who came after them first.  They weren’t part of a group who oppressed other groups.

The remaining saviors/pee moppers need to finger the enforcers in the group and they need to be taken out.  Negan needs to be executed.

Then they can have peace.  Bar code bitch may be playing nice now, but she needs to be taken out.  She had the chance to bolt, and she chose to stay.

no exceptions.

[sarthaz]

It was disorienting to see an episode that didn't suck. Hope it continues.

[EllipticalAddicted]

7 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

why did Michonne appear to have blood on her arm when she was sitting in bed working, where did it come from and why did she quickly wipe it off when Rick came in the room? 

That's what I was wondering.

 

I think the show is setting up all these people deciding to act on their desire to kill Negan for personal revenge.    Rick will get killed in trying to save Negan.   Negan finally gets what Carl was saying (urgh......) and change his life.   Those who were actively trying to kill Negan will lose their thirst for revenge after seeing Rick die in sacrificing himself for Negan.

 

Rick and Michonne's hypothetical baby becomes the leader that, in the future, will lead everyone back to civilization.   They will frame Michonne's "new nation" documents in a museum where, in a future flash forward, we see children learning about the zombie past and how we eventually came to peace and freedom.

 

the end.

I cannot believe that they didn't do something like The Nuremberg Trials.    They should have known that you cannot just pardon everyone after a war, if you want peace.

Edited October 22, 2018 by EllipticalAddicted

[ClareWalks]

I realize this is probably an unpopular opinion but I've been watching this show since the pilot episode and it has gotten almost unwatchable. There are too many characters who give one-paragraph soliloquies in lieu of actual development and we are supposed to care about them? I don't even remember their names/faces from one scene to the next. Now that there are five thousand (approx.) groups all combined I don't even remember which groups these individuals started out with. Not to mention that the show is so dark, visually, that I can't see or recognize people anyway. I find myself wondering "am I supposed to know who that is?" in almost every scene. 

[JackONeill]

4 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

I realize this is probably an unpopular opinion but I've been watching this show since the pilot episode and it has gotten almost unwatchable. There are too many characters who give one-paragraph soliloquies in lieu of actual development and we are supposed to care about them? I don't even remember their names/faces from one scene to the next. Now that there are five thousand (approx.) groups all combined I don't even remember which groups these individuals started out with. Not to mention that the show is so dark, visually, that I can't see or recognize people anyway. I find myself wondering "am I supposed to know who that is?" in almost every scene. 

That’s a very real problem with this show — there are too many people, too many groups, too much darkness, too much inarticulate speech (I’m looking at you Daryl). Seriously, my little brain had to scramble last night trying to figure out the characters that Daryl and Maggie had stumbled unto. Luckily through exposition, which luckily I could hear, I could figure it out (except for what Daryl said.)

One more thing — are we to believe (which obviously me must be) that no one ELSE has seen the helicopter. Even if it only flies at night (which is quieter and when flashing lights are more likely to be seen), it should have been spotted. I mean, all of the groups—Hilltop, Alexandria, Sanctuary, the bridge outpost — has sentries. But no has seen or spotted helicopter? Really? What happens if the Walkers have learned how to fly a helicopter and are planning a sneak attack? Won’t we feel foolish?

[ClareWalks]

8 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

One more thing — are we to believe (which obviously me must be) that no one ELSE has seen the helicopter. Even if it only flies at night (which is quieter and when flashing lights are more likely to be seen), it should have been spotted. I mean, all of the groups—Hilltop, Alexandria, Sanctuary, the bridge outpost — has sentries. But no has seen or spotted helicopter? Really? What happens if the Walkers have learned how to fly a helicopter and are planning a sneak attack? Won’t we feel foolish?

Agreed! You'd think they'd at least HEAR the damn helicopter. There aren't a lot of motorized vehicles of any sort at this point. The noise wouldn't be "drowned out" by other noises, especially at night. 

[mightysparrow]

33 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

I realize this is probably an unpopular opinion but I've been watching this show since the pilot episode and it has gotten almost unwatchable. There are too many characters who give one-paragraph soliloquies in lieu of actual development and we are supposed to care about them? I don't even remember their names/faces from one scene to the next. Now that there are five thousand (approx.) groups all combined I don't even remember which groups these individuals started out with. Not to mention that the show is so dark, visually, that I can't see or recognize people anyway. I find myself wondering "am I supposed to know who that is?" in almost every scene. 

I thought it was just me. 

I don't know who 95% of this cast of thousands are and don't really care.  I didn't watch the Pirate show because most Pirates were slave-traders and as a woman who's a descendant of African slaves, I don't see much entertainment value in the subject no matter how much full-frontal nudity there is.  However, I understood that the actor from the show was a big deal.  So why hire him only to kill him off the next episode?  There is way too much dead-weight in the cast.  We get a glimpse of a character that seems interesting, knowing that we'll probably never see them again. 

Smooshing all of the communities together is ridiculous.  It bloats an already bloated cast.  I only recognize some of the Survivors because of their fondness for extreme hairdos.  Or hair-don'ts.  I wasn't sure if the women from Oceanside were from the Lillith-faire community until they had Blondie on her knees.

Rick should have disarmed the Saviours and sent them on their way.  Forcing people to work side by side with the people who murdered their loved ones just because HE wants it just shows what a selfish asshole Rick is.  Which leads me to wonder WHY these groups even bother to listen to Rick.  Anyone who has spent more than a few days with Rick knows that he's a lousy leader.  Everything he touches or plans turns to shit.  People like Daryl, Michonne, Maggie and Carol do all the heavy lifting while Rick goes around speechifying.  Why don't these people tell Rick to piss-off?

Edited October 22, 2018 by mightysparrow

[tiredofwork]

This whole plot line with the Saviors is a bad one..  Regardless of how removed each individual was from causing death, pain, suffering, etc.. to the others that were NOT NEGAN are in my mind still complicit by association.    I know that may be wrong  and for many they are victims of the circumstance at the time, but the reality is for those like the Oceansiders who were the victims will always rightly see them as a part of an evil empire..   

As such, I believe the smartest of them all was Dwight..  He got the fuck out of there 1) to find his woman, but I believe he understood the insanity of him sticking around especially knowing he was a face of many of those acts..    In fact I look back on Dwight's character and for many, including me, I as confused as to why they "kept trying to make him happen", but I now believe without him, that entire Savior collapse would have never happened.  He had the balls to stick himself out there and it worked.

I actually thought it was Dwight that was killing the Saviors when Daryl saw the arrow and he told Maggie "he knows who is doing this".

This whole Jadis, helicopter, A & B stuff is a mashup of Matrix, Cabin in the Woods, Maze Runner stuff taking this show in a whole different direction where there is this scientific community working evil for good or working with aliens or some shit...   Not a good look WD.       I am convinced that season 9, certainly season 10 should be the shows swan song.

Finally, I am done with the Michonne character..  What the hell..  She is sitting on the steps at the feet of Rick in adoration of him and she is just not the warrior bad ass chick anymore and with that, I see no use for the character.   I am happy Danai can do her badassness in the Black Panther/Avenger franchise going forward.

Edited October 22, 2018 by tiredofwork

[Ohwell]

I actually fell asleep and missed about the last 10 minutes of the show.  That's how bored I was.  

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

why did Michonne appear to have blood on her arm when she was sitting in bed working, where did it come from and why did she quickly wipe it off when Rick came in the room?

That was the only part that was mildly intriguing.  There must have been some reason they showed that scene.

[OoohMaggie]

Towards the end  of the show, just after the Saviours are seen trudging off to work, Maggie says something to Daryl,         “ right after ......... Gregory? ........ ........ ...........”  Any ideas, I’ve played it over and over  but can’t make it out. 

Edited October 23, 2018 by OoohMaggie

[Mu Shu]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

If they insist on killing Negan there needs to be a trial.  They can't have each individual in each community meting out their own brand of justice.  No one is safe if the communities head down that path of an "eye for an eye".

Add in to that, a bunch of Saviors have just been killed.  If Maggie and Daryl try and kill Nagen now, the living Saviors will think that those two killed the other Saviors.  The result would be a Savior uprising/rebellion.  The Saviors may not have weapons, but they do have numbers.

They don’t have that luxury yet.  They need to eliminate threats and then re start.  

[nodorothyparker]

FWIW, the story of the escaped slave communities of the Caribbean fighting back against the colonizers and their former enslavers was an integral part of the last two seasons of Black Sails.  But I totally get that your mileage may vary on how appealing that might be as entertainment.  Regardless, it seems a stupid waste of a bigger better actor to give him half a dozen lines over two episodes and then let him lay as a zombie corpse for a third.

A pretty good episode in what's turning out to be a pretty good season so far.  Who could have guessed that the fallout to the mostly two execrable seasons of All Out War would be so much more interesting than the war itself?  Maybe anyone who could see that Negan is much more tolerable as a still menacing off-screen presence instead of hamming it up endlessly monologuing and doing weird posturing all over the place.  All those loose ends from terrible past story threads are now coming together.  I love how many shades of gray there are in working out who killed who and does it matter at all if they're among those most reliably towing the line now?  It works because none of the characters' hands are clean, including our heroes, and it's a legitimate point that continuing the violence all but ensures more violence in return.   Yet it's also impossible to argue with the Oceansiders and Maggie and Daryl too that they shouldn't have to live and work day after day with the monsters who callously killed the people they loved either.  Or that those Saviors shouldn't be allowed to get away with what they did as if they committed nothing worse than the usual battlefield carnage.  The reveal that the Oceansiders had taken Maggie's example and ran with it felt like a natural progression rather than just throwing some new big bad out there in the woods, even if a part of me was left wondering if they otherwise would have just continued to seethe while accepting Rick's new world order if Maggie had left Gregory alive to scheme like a soap opera villain against her some more.

I really just want to shake Rick, or maybe take Michonne's earlier season example and club him in the head with a rock.  His mantra that every life counts sounds good on paper, but he's completely missing the forest for the trees.  Again, if he'd had any realistic hope of making this work longterm he really should have figured out some vetting process for the Saviors instead of blanket amnesty.  It's ridiculous to expect people to immediately forgive and forget and be happy to share and share alike with their former tormentors, and they should have weeded those out in the very beginning.  Rick and Carol felt like the best Killers Anonymous meeting ever with both admitting how much easier it would be to just kill all the troublemakers from the get go and was one of those conversations that could only occur between longtime legacy characters.  Still, I kept wondering if he'd ever shared his admission that he fantasizes about killing Negan first thing every morning with Daryl or Maggie instead of endless platitudes about how they just have to get over it and make it work.  That probably would have gotten him farther with them.  This is easily the most I've liked Daryl in seasons in calling out Rick in what about their losses, even if he still needs a pretty barrette to get the curtain of hair out of his eyes.

Jadis/Anne's story better be going somewhere.  The helicopter has to be one of the longest teases in TV history ever.

[JackONeill]

13 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

They don’t have that luxury yet.  They need to eliminate threats and then re start.  

Who is “they?” 

And I don’t mean to sound like a smart-ass, but this, to me, is part of the problem. Who is in charge? Many people think it’s Rick. Look at the rock-star greeting he got when he went to the Sancuatuary. They hate him, but they (maybe) admire him. And I think a lot of individuals at other places do. But we know Maggie is in charge of Hilltop, and Ezekiel is in charge of Hilltop (if that still exists?). And Carol replaced Daryl as the head of the Sanctuary, and Rick has Alexandria. So they have little fiefdoms, and we know those never work out. I know Michonne keeps talking about writing  constitution or something. As silly as that sounds, they do need to sit down and hash these things out. Look at the night and day difference in how Rick is handling Negan vs how Maggie handle Gregory. Talk about a gulf in leadership styles.  But if everyone wants to keep their own piece of the pie and not follow orders or suggestions, than we’ll have a mess. 

[Mu Shu]

Just now, JackONeill said:

Who is “they?” 

And I don’t mean to sound like a smart-ass, but this, to me, is part of the problem. Who is in charge? Many people think it’s Rick. Look at the rock-star greeting he got when he went to the Sancuatuary. They hate him, but they (maybe) admire him. And I think a lot of individuals at other places do. But we know Maggie is in charge of Hilltop, and Ezekiel is in charge of Hilltop (if that still exists?). And Carol replaced Daryl as the head of the Sanctuary, and Rick has Alexandria. So they have little fiefdoms, and we know those never work out. I know Michonne keeps talking about writing  constitution or something. As silly as that sounds, they do need to sit down and hash these things out. Look at the night and day difference in how Rick is handling Negan vs how Maggie handle Gregory. Talk about a gulf in leadership styles.  But if everyone wants to keep their own piece of the pie and not follow orders or suggestions, than we’ll have a mess. 

They?  The people who killed under Negan. Negan is they.  The guys who threatened to kill Carol are they.  

I get it everyone has blood on their hands, but the only people who ironed people’s faces, bashed heads with bats, threw into furnaces, gutted, forced into sexual servitude were the saviors.  The ones loyal to Negan.  There is no way to keep them in the midst.  

Put Negan in front of them.  Shoot every last person who kneels.  Have your psyche team do evals on prospects.  Oh wait, the saviors killed the psyche team. 

Most of the people will fall in line because they’re followers.  There is not the manpower to build and house prisoners. Executing the leaders will also keep them in line.  Finally, most of the people in the savior compound weren’t soldiers.  Those lives matter.  The ones who gleefully killed?

no exceptions.

[nodorothyparker]

10 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

And I don’t mean to sound like a smart-ass, but this, to me, is part of the problem. Who is in charge? Many people think it’s Rick. Look at the rock-star greeting he got when he went to the Sancuatuary. They hate him, but they (maybe) admire him. And I think a lot of individuals at other places do. But we know Maggie is in charge of Hilltop, and Ezekiel is in charge of Hilltop (if that still exists?). And Carol replaced Daryl as the head of the Sanctuary, and Rick has Alexandria. So they have little fiefdoms, and we know those never work out. I know Michonne keeps talking about writing  constitution or something. As silly as that sounds, they do need to sit down and hash these things out. Look at the night and day difference in how Rick is handling Negan vs how Maggie handle Gregory. Talk about a gulf in leadership styles.  But if everyone wants to keep their own piece of the pie and not follow orders or suggestions, than we’ll have a mess. 

That's why I really loved that JERRY! voiced the question of whether whoever they believed was taking the Saviors would be punished like Negan or Gregory.  The writing is smart to acknowledge that there's real inconsistency happening without a clear understanding of what exactly the power hierarchy is or how enforceable it may be from community to community.  Michonne is at least right that if they're all going to be dependent on each other they need to codify something that spells all this out.

[JackONeill]

2 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

They?  The people who killed under Negan. Negan is they.  The guys who threatened to kill Carol are they.  

I get it everyone has blood on their hands, but the only people who ironed people’s faces, bashed heads with bats, threw into furnaces, gutted, forced into sexual servitude were the saviors.  The ones loyal to Negan.  There is no way to keep them in the midst.  

Put Negan in front of them.  Shoot every last person who kneels.  Have your psyche team do evals on prospects.  Oh wait, the saviors killed the psyche team. 

Most of the people will fall in line because they’re followers.  There is not the manpower to build and house prisoners. Executing the leaders will also keep them in line.  Finally, most of the people in the savior compound weren’t soldiers.  Those lives matter.  The ones who gleefully killed?

no exceptions.

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were using “they” to refer to “whoever” is in charge of lol this, i.e, the aftermath of the great and really long war.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, EllipticalAddicted said:

I cannot believe that they didn't do something like The Nuremberg Trials.    They should have known that you cannot just pardon everyone after a war, if you want peace.

I agree.  In a normal war, you might just be able to move on.  But, the Saviors committed numerous atrocities; slavery, rape, torture, murder, murder of children, etc.   There needed to be an accounting for this.  If a several of the key leaders had been tried and executed, and a few lesser participants jailed, banished, or whatever, I think most people's need for justice would have been satisfied.   

43 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

They don’t have that luxury yet.  They need to eliminate threats and then re start.  

They should have tried and executed Negan immediately after the war was won.  

[RedDelicious]

2 hours ago, JackONeill said:

One more thing — are we to believe (which obviously me must be) that no one ELSE has seen the helicopter. Even if it only flies at night (which is quieter and when flashing lights are more likely to be seen), it should have been spotted. I mean, all of the groups—Hilltop, Alexandria, Sanctuary, the bridge outpost — has sentries. But no has seen or spotted helicopter? Really? What happens if the Walkers have learned how to fly a helicopter and are planning a sneak attack? Won’t we feel foolish?

It reminds me of the couple of days following September 11th, when all commercial aircraft were grounded.  The only thing you saw or heard in the night sky was military.  It was eerily quiet as I recall, except for one or two helicopters in my area and we watched them as long as we could, trying to figure out where they were going.  Of course there's an app for that now, and I use it all the time (FlightRadar 24, obvi not available post-apocalypse).

[OoohMaggie]

9 hours ago, spiderpig said:

Who was the guy in Maggie's wagon in the opening sequence?  I have horrible facial recognition and can't keep any of my sisters-in-law straight at family dinners.

His name is Kal, an original Hilltopper and one of Maggie’s trusted lieutenants. 

[Mu Shu]

48 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were using “they” to refer to “whoever” is in charge of lol this, i.e, the aftermath of the great and really long war.

Nah, my thought is Negan, Barat, Simon, etc were  sociopaths from jump who can’t be reformed.  They don’t have the manpower to imprison, guard, and feed them.  The risk of keeping them alive is too great.

oh, and what the hell happened to Heath?  

Edited October 22, 2018 by Mu Shu

[heisenberg]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Rick ought to change his name to Rosie Scenario.  He needs to do what is best for the living, not his dead son.

Those Oceanside folks shouldn't have been killing off the Saviors.  Where does the killing stop?  Now do those Saviors get to kill off those Oceanside folks that just killed their friends/relatives?

This is headed down the path of never ending vendettas.

And finally what a waste of an excellent actor.  There are so few on this show, but why the hell kill off Zach McGowan?

Poor decision by the writers and showrunner.

The problem is that Daryl and Maggie aren't thinking about the long term repercussions for killing Negan.  Maggie has a baby to think about, does she really want a never ending war?

They kill Negan, and that will put a target on Rick and the other leaders.

It is either "Kill them all" or "Save them all" with no middle to it. 

After a war you are supposed to have at least a trial,  than you take away the ones who were "Full Negan's" and were enjoying the killings and the profits of it.   You execute them or put them in a jail but you don't try to do as if they were normal people by mixing them with others.

[WalkerTalker]

2 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

Towards the end  of the show, right after the Saviours are seen trudging off to work, Maggie says something to Daryl,         “ right after ......... Gregory? ........ ........ ...........”  Any ideas, I’ve played it over and over  but can’t make it out. 

I got the impression at the end that they were on their way to finish Negan off. 

[AngelaHunter]

9 hours ago, Tasha Brand said:

With all of the complaints about Rick, I thought he explained his viewpoint very well to Carol.

He might sound reasonable to Carol, but I bet she'd have a different reaction to what he said had she been there the night Negan whacked Glenn/Abe, threatened to cut out Carl's remaining eye, thrown Daryl into the truck and put us all into comas with his all-night talking.

 

32 minutes ago, OoohMaggie said:

His name is Kal, an original Hilltopper and one of Maggie’s trusted lieutenants. 

I swear, I've never seen him before. I'm so glad we have this forum, to keep me informed.

Have we ever seen the two bearded, dark-haired Saviors before? I love how New Rick just kindly and helpfully informed the one Carol stabbed how to stop the bloodflow from his wound. Old Rick would have promised to let him go if he took the knife from Carol's throat and then shot him anyway after he did it, He reminds of RoboCop, after he was redesigned to be politically correct and was turned into a laughingstock.

[Colorado David]

4 hours ago, JackONeill said:

Rick’s “take” on Negan is inexplicable. It is nothing like what we’ve seen from him.

I can’t remember the exact sequence of events but remember the Termites. Rick said, “Kill them.” Then he quickly added in that voice that only Rick (and Clint Eastwood) has: “Kill them all.” There was no mercy. None. And there were women included.

No one will ever be able to give me a rational explanation for what is causing this dramatic sea-change in Rick. 

I think's Rick's growing and using his own supply of wacky weed

I too thought at first that was a Glenn/Maggie flashback. With the hair and the goatee, that character does look somewhat like Glenn.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Colorado David

[iMonrey]

Dare I say this episode was actually kind of  . . . good? It's the first time I've really been engaged since maybe Season 6. It felt more like the show I used to know. I'm intrigued by whoever Jadis is talking to and I liked the reveal that the Oceanside women are the ones responsible for the disappearances. I totally thought they were going somewhere else with this. And when Maggie and Daryl just decided to walk away and let them finish the execution I got a little chill. Now, if they follow through and kill Negan I will jump for joy, literally. He's the last remaining stumbling block to getting this show back on track. 

I do agree they need to do something about trimming down the cast of thousands. We were used to dealing with much smaller groups until they got to Alexandria and it's really changed the dynamic of the show in a fundamental way. 

Quote

IMO, they screwed up by making Carl be the one that wants everyone to get along.  IMO, Rick is trying to fulfill Carl's absurd last wishes.  It makes them both look bad.

Yeah, I never understood Carl's whole kumbaya attitude towards Negan. It was dumb, it never made any sense, and I have no idea what they were thinking. I really think Negan and all of the Saviors need to go, period. 

Quote

Who was the guy in Maggie's wagon in the opening sequence?

Glenn 2.0? Seriously, I hope they aren't considering pairing Maggie off with some other Asian guy just for that reason.

[nodorothyparker]

25 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

1 hour ago, OoohMaggie said:

His name is Kal, an original Hilltopper and one of Maggie’s trusted lieutenants. 

I swear, I've never seen him before. I'm so glad we have this forum, to keep me informed.

He's been a background character since the introduction of Hilltop.  The only memorable things he's done were stand guard and flip Gregory off one of the many times they'd thrown him out or he'd come scurrying back from somewhere.

TTD informs me the main bearded guy is Jed, and last episode was the first time we'd ever seen him.  If he's sticking around as a general pain in the ass who shouldn't have lived, I wish they'd have cast Zack McGowan in that role instead because I don't know this actor from anyone.  And I promise this is where I'll stop mourning the waste of McGowan in a throwaway role.