S01.E01: Keep on Truckin'

[DangerousMinds]

I don’t understand the “dressed up as a Lolita” part. Mark just looks like a kid. For my part, I had crushes on boys from kindergarten on (i’m a woman).

[CrystalBlue]

3 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don’t understand the “dressed up as a Lolita” part. Mark just looks like a kid. For my part, I had crushes on boys from kindergarten on (i’m a woman).

Mark has been dressing in skirts, stockings and glitter since he's been on the Roseanne reboot.  He has not dressed like a little boy.

[DangerousMinds]

7 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

Mark has been dressing in skirts, stockings and glitter since he's been on the Roseanne reboot.  He has not dressed like a little boy.

Eh, I just see him as having his own style. And good for him!

[peacheslatour]

14 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Eh, I just see him as having his own style. And good for him!

Agreed. And I don't remember any stockings.

[jhlipton]

People see what they want to see.  I haven't seen skirts, stockings OR glitter.

[DangerousMinds]

So far he’s just looked like a quirky middle schooler to me. I haven’t seen a Mark with glitter, but I can tell you that glitter tends to be very popular at that age.

Edited October 24, 2018 by DangerousMinds

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Mark has been dressing in skirts, stockings and glitter since he's been on the Roseanne reboot.

But that's not analogous to a girl being dressed up like Lolita.  He wears some items of clothing that are stereotypically feminine, yes, but that's irrelevant -- he's not a sex object in his outfits like Lolita is in hers; he's dressed like a kid, not like an adult. 

[jsbt]

He's been dressing in skirts and stuff, yes. He likes those clothes because, as he told people, they 'pop'. His wardrobe has been somewhat genderfluid, as can happen with young children experimenting with their identity. But none of it was or has been sexualized, certainly not as a "Lolita".

[DangerousMinds]

12 minutes ago, Bastet said:

But that's not analogous to a girl being dressed up like Lolita.  He wears some items of clothing that are stereotypically feminine, yes, but that's irrelevant -- he's not a sex object in his outfits like Lolita is in hers; he's dressed like a kid, not like an adult. 

You said it better than I did! 

Certainly many girls wear clothing that could be considered "stereotypically male" too.

Edited October 24, 2018 by DangerousMinds

[love2lovebadtv]

9 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don’t understand the “dressed up as a Lolita” part. Mark just looks like a kid. For my part, I had crushes on boys from kindergarten on (i’m a woman).

Yeah, Mark gives me more Rainbow Brite vibes than Lolita. He's sunny and wholesome,although his choice of seat mate proves he's still a Conner. 

[Jacqs]

And if Mark did eventually decide that they were transgender and a Marcia, that's fine.

[methodwriter85]

3 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Mark gives me more Rainbow Brite vibes than Lolita.

I see a bit of Punky Brewster, too.  He would've LOVED her outfits.

[Jacqs]

3 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I see a bit of Punky Brewster, too.  He would've LOVED her outfits.

he probably wouldn't have loved having the giant tits the actress ended up with...

[Chaos Theory]

22 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Mark has been dressing in skirts, stockings and glitter since he's been on the Roseanne reboot.  He has not dressed like a little boy.

On the Original Roseanne way back Darlene played sports WITH BOYS.  She played baseball on boys teams..   She was a Tom boy and often dressed like it.   Years later Mark is feminine and likes skirts a glitter.  I still say he is too young to know for sure what his sexuality is for sure but to stop his free expression seems counterproductive to me.  

Edited October 25, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Jacqs]

@Chaos Theory tomboys are accepted by the mainstream. boys who dress like girls and play with dolls are sadly not.

[Sakura12]

I don't see Mark dressing like a lolita. He's usually pretty covered, he's just wearing clothes that are typically for girls. 

Our issue is we assign genders to everything from colors to clothes. If boys can wear pants, girls can wear pants. If girls can wear skirts, boys can wear skirts. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Sakura12

[Jacqs]

@Sakura12 the reality is that if your average American mother saw a little girl in overalls wearing a baseball cap and riding a skateboard, they'd think it was adorable or think nothing of it. *But* if they saw a little boy wearing a dress and Mary Janes and playing with a Barbie Doll, they probably call Social Services on the parents.

[Sakura12]

I know, but that's because of assigning genders to colors and clothes. If we decided pink was for boys and blue was for girls that would be the norm. Not too long ago girls wearing pants was unacceptable as well. Society changed for them, so hopefully it can change for the boys that like to wear skirts. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Sakura12

[andipandi]

I really liked this episode, the feels, and the characters. Did I miss Roseanne? Yes. Do I think this show will work? Yes. It's a large ensemble so with no Roseanne there will be more space for other stories, and DJ even getting lines.

For all those who didn't watch because roseanne the real person was a train wreck, last season was much like this, with the roseanne character flawed but learning, diversity in topics, and lots of mixing perspectives.

Edited October 25, 2018 by andipandi

[DangerousMinds]

5 hours ago, JacquelineAppleton said:

@Chaos Theory tomboys are accepted by the mainstream. boys who dress like girls and play with dolls are sadly not.

They often aren’t, but I admire his confidence and courage in being himself despite that.

5 hours ago, JacquelineAppleton said:

@Sakura12 the reality is that if your average American mother saw a little girl in overalls wearing a baseball cap and riding a skateboard, they'd think it was adorable or think nothing of it. *But* if they saw a little boy wearing a dress and Mary Janes and playing with a Barbie Doll, they probably call Social Services on the parents.

If so, social services would do nothkg, because the parents aren’t doing anything wrong in letting their child be who he is.

[CrystalBlue]

On 10/24/2018 at 12:00 PM, CrystalBlue said:

I don't think you're confused.  Let's reverse this.  Say Mark was Michelle, Darlene and David's daughter, who is 9-11 (the actor who plays Mark Conner Healy is age 12).  She gets dressed up and made up like a Lolita and Dan is helping her decide which boy she should choose as her seatmate on the bus for the school field trip.  Would this fly?  Probably not.  It would be sexualizing a little girl.  The reverse is OK because Mark is acknowledging his gayness and "coming out" so it's the PC thing to do.  According to some people anyway.

I am quoting myself so ya'll can read what I wrote again.  I did not say Mark Healy is dressed as Lolita.  The point the OP YEAH NO made and to which I replied was regarding the sexualizing of children, not their dress, as in girls being tomboys vs. skirt-wearing boys, pink and blue, etc.

Also, I'd like to point out that the Conners, mainly Dan, initially questioned Mark's wardrobe choices and Darlene's attitude was let him do what he wants to do, but in one episode of the Roseanne reboot, she wanted him to pack a pair of pants and shirt "just in case."  Dan didn't want Mark to decorate the birdhouses the two were making together with glitter.  This was the storyline they were going with and it seems to have continued in The Conners.

It seems to me that Mark has decided not only he likes "colors that pop" and wearing skirts and knee-high socks (which I originally called stockings; I did not mean pantyhose), but that he is attracted to boys.  I believe YEAH NO and I were questioning the promotion of little boys or girls choosing partners who they like in a sexual way.

[CherryAmes]

3 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

It seems to me that Mark has decided not only he likes "colors that pop" and wearing skirts and knee-high socks (which I originally called stockings; I did not mean pantyhose), but that he is attracted to boys. 

To be honest what irritates me is the way boys and men who are meant to be gay or transgender seem to have to be depicted as having an affinity for dresses and glittery stuff.  As if being a girl comes down to wearing dresses and liking glittery stuff.  It's so superficial - and in the case of most girls/women of my acquaintance it's not actually true.  Anyway side rant over :) .

[littlecatsfeet]

So, not to beat this to death (it may be too late); could it be said that the little boy I had a crush on in 5th grade (I'm female)  was me "choosing a partner in a sexual way"?

[Jacqs]

There's a lot of valid consent issues to do with labeling young children as trans. It's often an attempt by adult activists to solidify their own identity. A similar issue arises with using dead people to promote modern civil rights activism - there is a statue of Franklin D. Roosevelt in a wheelchair to be found at the FDR Memorial, but everything we know about FDR indicates he certainly would have hated it. The civil rights activists ignored that because they wanted their political statement.

[CherryAmes]

Just now, JacquelineAppleton said:

The civil rights activists ignored that because they wanted their political statement.

Which was that despite a disability someone can become president - 4 times.  I think that message is a pretty powerful one and not one that should be usurped because FDR knew that his disability would have been used against him at the time.  Probably would still be used against a presidential candidate today to be honest.

[Steff]

Last season Roseanne asked Mark if he felt like a boy or a girl and Mark responded "boy".  So this line of thought that Mark is trans wouldn't apply.  If anything, he'd be a cross dresser.  He's not dressing like a girl because he wants to be a girl, he's said that he dresses that way because he likes colors that pop & likes expressing himself through how he dresses.  

 

ETA:   Think about drag queens.  Most, but not all, are gay, but most, but not all, aren't looking to have surgery to become women.  They just enjoy the dress up parts a lot. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Steff

[DangerousMinds]

51 minutes ago, littlecatsfeet said:

So, not to beat this to death (it may be too late); could it be said that the little boy I had a crush on in 5th grade (I'm female)  was me "choosing a partner in a sexual way"?

I had major crushes on boys from kindergarten on. But that didn’t mean I was thinking about sex.

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, DangerousMinds said:

I had major crushes on boys from kindergarten on. But that didn’t mean I was thinking about sex.

Same. I didn't even know what sex was until I was like eleven or twelve and even then I thought it was gross.

[littlecatsfeet]

9 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

12 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I had major crushes on boys from kindergarten on. But that didn’t mean I was thinking about sex.

Same. I didn't even know what sex was until I was like eleven or twelve and even then I thought it was gross.

If anybody had referred to my grade-school crushes (at the time) as anything to do with sex or sexuality, I definitely would have been pretty squicked out. I wasn't "choosing a sexual partner" at 10 years old, I just thought Jerry Moffat was cute.

Edited October 25, 2018 by littlecatsfeet

[Bastet]

Mark is talking about who he's going to sit next to on the bus, not who he's going to make out with under the bleachers.  "Whoever I sit next to, it means I like them" is so innocuous, innocent, and typical of crushes at that age that I cannot imagine there'd be a "sexualizing of children" outcry if he was dressed in jeans and a t-shirt and asking Dan which of two girls he should sit by.

[willowk]

On 10/24/2018 at 12:22 PM, DangerousMinds said:

Eh, I just see him as having his own style. And good for him!

I agree. And the sparkly stuff reminded me more of how many (mostly girls) go through a "princess" stage. On Mark's age, Darlene mentioned in this episode that he is 11. So too young to date, not too young to start having feelings. And as others have mentioned, many have 1st crushes in grade school. I had my 1st crush in about 3rd, 4th grade.

[jsbt]

3 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Dan didn't want Mark to decorate the birdhouses the two were making together with glitter.  This was the storyline they were going with and it seems to have continued in The Conners.

It seems to me that Mark has decided not only he likes "colors that pop" and wearing skirts and knee-high socks (which I originally called stockings; I did not mean pantyhose), but that he is attracted to boys.  I believe YEAH NO and I were questioning the promotion of little boys or girls choosing partners who they like in a sexual way.

So by that circuit of logic, was Mark sexualizing the birds?

And yes, it seems Mark is likely beginning to have a very, very early understanding of possibly being interested in boys. But there is no sexual component to it at this stage nor has one been presented onscreen. Not through his clothes or actions. So if this isn't called out as sexualizing children when another little boy or girl on a different sitcom who wears traditionally gendered clothes has to decide who to sit next to on a bus (a time-worn sitcom B-plot if ever there was one) then I'm not sure why this is different with Mark.

[FairyDusted]

Also Dan was making those birdhouses per plans by the buyer. They NEEDED to be decorated as directed. Dan was upset because he failed to follow directions. 

[jhlipton]

On 10/25/2018 at 6:07 AM, JacquelineAppleton said:

@Sakura12 the reality is that if your average American mother saw a little girl in overalls wearing a baseball cap and riding a skateboard, they'd think it was adorable or think nothing of it. *But* if they saw a little boy wearing a dress and Mary Janes and playing with a Barbie Doll, they probably call Social Services on the parents.

One thing I'm glad of is that Blue (who I think is about the same age as Mark)  has a Barbie-type doll that his parents like to watch him play with (and will raise a stink if anyone makes a negative comment).

22 hours ago, Steff said:

Last season Roseanne asked Mark if he felt like a boy or a girl and Mark responded "boy".  So this line of thought that Mark is trans wouldn't apply.  If anything, he'd be a cross dresser.  He's not dressing like a girl because he wants to be a girl, he's said that he dresses that way because he likes colors that pop & likes expressing himself through how he dresses.  

My grand-nephew went through a phase where he liked wearing his sister's "princess" dresses.  He was just exploring -- it didn't mean he was gay, transgender or a transvestite.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/25/2018 at 8:02 AM, Chaos Theory said:

On the Original Roseanne way back Darlene played sports WITH BOYS.  She played baseball on boys teams..   She was a Tom boy and often dressed like it.   Years later Mark is feminine and likes skirts a glitter.  I still say he is too young to know for sure what his sexuality is for sure but to stop his free expression seems counterproductive to me.  

Remember that poem Darlene wrote - To whom it concerns? "...but guys don't watch tomboys when they're cruising the hall..."

My favorite Darlene moment EVER!

On 10/25/2018 at 8:25 PM, FairyDusted said:

Also Dan was making those birdhouses per plans by the buyer. They NEEDED to be decorated as directed. Dan was upset because he failed to follow directions. 

Yes, and his talk with Mark conveyed exactly that. Dan didn't criticize Mark's personal preferences; he simply explained how things work when you're paid to do a job - great lesson from Grandpa Dan. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 10/25/2018 at 4:33 PM, willowk said:

Darlene mentioned in this episode that he is 11.

I remember noting that they showed Mark with an Algebra II textbook at the kitchen table after his friends left.  Algebra II is a 10th grade or advanced 9th grade subject.  Since no one has mentioned Mark being a math prodigy, I assume that was a mistake. 

[BeachDays]

49 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I remember noting that they showed Mark with an Algebra II textbook at the kitchen table after his friends left.  Algebra II is a 10th grade or advanced 9th grade subject.  Since no one has mentioned Mark being a math prodigy, I assume that was a mistake. 

 

I didn’t know what textbook it was but it did seem above his grade level.  Then again, in the next ep his teacher says he is advanced and it’s a struggle to keep him challenged.   

[femmefan1946]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/record-overdose-calls-paramedics-bc-1.4766517

On 10/25/2018 at 12:22 PM, CherryAmes said:

To be honest what irritates me is the way boys and men who are meant to be gay or transgender seem to have to be depicted as having an affinity for dresses and glittery stuff. 

Thinking through my gay friends and relatives, I don't think any of them have/had any such affinity. Well, Cousin Ronnie wore kilts but he was also in a Highland regiment , played the bagpipes, and rode a motorcycle. (He's over 80 now so the motorcycle is long gone.) One of my construction guys wore skirts on his days off but otherwise presented as pretty masculine, and his partner who also worked with us had terrible taste in clothes. It was a step up for him to go 'grunge'.

Ditto musical theatre.

The camp voice though. Yeah my gay high school buddy used that all the time. Darned if I know how he picked it up in suburban 1950s Canada.

[Colorado David]

On 10/25/2018 at 1:38 AM, JacquelineAppleton said:

And if Mark did eventually decide that they were transgender and a Marcia, that's fine.

agreed, but stop making such a big deal of it show. ignore her behavior the way the rest of us get ignored, she isn't special.

[DangerousMinds]

15 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

agreed, but stop making such a big deal of it show. ignore her behavior the way the rest of us get ignored, she isn't special.

Who is “her?”

[Colorado David]

6 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Who is “her?”

I'm sorry, her is Mark, as he was identifying with a woman in the costume. if he is more appro, then he.

[Homily]

31 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

agreed, but stop making such a big deal of it show. ignore her behavior the way the rest of us get ignored, she isn't special.

Not sure what you mean by special, if you mean better than the other kids, sure I agree.  But otherwise I don't think it's unreasonable if you've made the decision to have a child like Mark on the show that you deal with some of the consequences of life for a kid who chooses to march to the beat of a different drummer.  I think most of us would be racing to this forum to voice our criticism if they were acting like Mark is a typical middle schooler.  I don't want Mark - or the others kids for that matter - to ever be the focus of this show.  Small doses, writers, small doses!

[Colorado David]

exactly. i'm getting the feeling of whacked each week of 'hey i'm this way' celebrated way too loudly. be a little miserable person like the rest of the crew.

[femmefan1946]

Mark identifies as a boy. One who likes glitter. It is only polite to use the appropriate pronouns when someone is clear on this.

Miss Manners (Judith Martin) wrote about this in the 90s. She was asked how one should respond  when introduced to a gay couple. Her answer was "How do you do."

[Jacqs]

There are serious consent issues with claiming ever young children as trans. adults who identify as trans were not trans as babies and they were not trans as toddlers.

[VagueDisclaimer]

1 hour ago, JacquelineAppleton said:

There are serious consent issues with claiming ever young children as trans. adults who identify as trans were not trans as babies and they were not trans as toddlers.

Babies also can’t speak, walk, eat solid foods, or see all that well. But they grow and learn. About everything, including themselves.

 

I also rarely see such “consent” arguments when said babies are, for example, forced to wear “Ladies Man” onesies. 

Edited November 3, 2018 by VagueDisclaimer

[CherryAmes]

7 hours ago, femmefan1946 said:

Mark identifies as a boy. One who likes glitter. It is only polite to use the appropriate pronouns when someone is clear on this.

Yes, from what I've seen I thought this as well but wondered based on some of the comments if this POV was coming from something in the reboot Roseanne that I hadn't seen.

Love your avatar (I think that's what it's called) used to watch that show with my grandmother back when she and her friends ruled the Rovers Return.

[BeachDays]

Yes, last season he stated he feels like a boy, and in this past episode he stated he is a man.   Mark is definitely a “he”.  

[Steff]

9 hours ago, JacquelineAppleton said:

There are serious consent issues with claiming ever young children as trans. adults who identify as trans were not trans as babies and they were not trans as toddlers.

But we aren't talking about a trans boy.  Mark has multiple times identified as a boy/man.  He doesn't want or feel like he's a girl, he just dresses differently.  Like many kids that age, he's expressing himself with how he dresses. 

[DangerousMinds]

8 hours ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

Babies also can’t speak, walk, eat solid foods, or see all that well. But they grow and learn. About everything, including themselves.

 

I also rarely see such “consent” arguments when said babies are, for example, forced to wear “Ladies Man” onesies. 

And those damn huge bows people like to put on female infants to heavily signal their femininity.