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S01.E01: Keep on Truckin'

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10 hours ago, Rap541 said:

I think he is unemployed yes, but if he got out at the 20 year point, there would be some income coming in. My point is that in the circle of struggling Connors, DJ is the one struggling the least.

I don't think we know how long DJ served; his discharge was honorable but involuntary. Last season he confessed to Dan that when he tried to re-enlist after his tour, the Army turned him down. The story behind that looks to have been a setup for continuation. 

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So when I see a person pretty snippily tell someone else their views are wrong and their own religious choices are the only really correct ones and uh huh, if you don't get with the program, I will be smugly looking down on you.... It rubs me wrong even though I do know people who joke this way. Because sometimes... they do mean it. 

Yes, that's the point. They do mean it. I see a lot of people are willing to dismiss this as "family members just kidding around with each other." But she's either a Christian, or she's not.  It doesn't matter if she's being good-natured or if Darlene is used to it and it doesn't bother her. She still means what she's saying: that Darlene is going to hell if she doesn't read the bible and share her religious convictions. It doesn't matter if it doesn't especially bug Darlene: it bugs me. It's an inappropriate thing to say to someone who has just lost a family member regardless of whether it's delivered with a chuckle or a smiley face emoji. It's also a crappy and insulting way to portray someone of the Christian faith.

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3 hours ago, Pallas said:

I don't think we know how long DJ served; his discharge was honorable but involuntary. Last season he confessed to Dan that he when he tried to re-enlist after his tour, the Army turned him down. The story behind that looks to have been a setup for continuation. 

Fair enough but we're still looking at one sibling working as a waitress, with a dead husband and a drinking problem, one sibling working as a waitress with two kids and no spouse or spousal support forced to move back in with a parent, and one sibling unemployed with an apparently good marriage and the spouse is gainfully employed in a job with good benefits, and they have a place to live that isn't his parents home. He's still the winning sibling. 

Speaking of siblings, does Jerry know his mom is dead? Am I the only one finding it a lil unbelievable he didn't show up?

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5 minutes ago, Rap541 said:

Fair enough but we're still looking at one sibling working as a waitress, with a dead husband and a drinking problem, one sibling working as a waitress with two kids and no spouse or spousal support forced to move back in with a parent, and one sibling unemployed with an apparently good marriage and the spouse is gainfully employed in a job with good benefits, and they have a place to live that isn't his parents home. He's still the winning sibling. 

Speaking of siblings, does Jerry know his mom is dead? Am I the only one finding it a lil unbelievable he didn't show up?

It was three weeks after the funeral.  It's possible that whatever job he's in, he's back at work already. 

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15 minutes ago, Rap541 said:

Speaking of siblings, does Jerry know his mom is dead? Am I the only one finding it a lil unbelievable he didn't show up?

If he didn't show up for the funeral, that would be glaring, yes, but this was three weeks later.  He works on a boat, and isn't going to have three weeks' bereavement leave (or any bereavement leave), so he had to get back to work, I'm sure.  He probably got home within a couple of days of Roseanne dying, stayed through the funeral, and then left.

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On 10/17/2018 at 2:41 PM, TheLastKidPicked said:

 

And that fits perfectly with Roseanne living in Lanford all this time.  She knows enough people who would have a few pills laying around.

OR, her friends would know people who could get her pills, and be assured that "Rosie's cool.  She's lived here her whole life." 

Not only are prescriptions expensive, but there is also taking time off to go to the doctor and a copay for a 5 minute visit resulting in the doctor prescribing the same medication you can get from your brother now that his BP is under control. It happens a lot with people I know. Could be with me someday, who knows. It's not so far fetched. 

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5 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Would Darlene or Becky be more “successful” if they worked an office job?

It's not really a question of success but of being able to live comfortably.  If the office job was a permanent 9-5 with a steady salary and benefits it would be a real step up from the precariousness of the waitress jobs they both seem to have right now.   Waitress on this show has always seemed to be another way of saying "just getting by" and that's not always true of course, but in the context of The Conners and it's earlier incarnations I think that's what it was meant to be.  

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Darlene certainly seems to think so - she had to be talked into taking the waitressing job that had benefits.

The unpleasant reality is that waitressing is usually less than minimum wage and can be physically debilitating the older you get. So "often pays less" and "rarely includes full time or benefits" and "gets harder the older you get" coupled with "rare promotional opportunities" doesn't compare well with "at least minimum wage, sometimes more" and "can often be full time with benefits" and "doesn't involve physically standing all day" and "sometimes involves promotions". 

There's no dishonor in a job like waitressing - it earns money and I know people who really like it, but it's not a job that requires much skill or training. There's a reason Becky is a waitress - she's a high school drop out who doesn't have the skills to get a job that has more opportunity. There's a reason her parents didn't want her to quit school and marry Mark - by quitting school, she cut down on her chances to get a better job. 

I will be fair and say if a waitressing job and an office job had the same pay, benefits, etc, then there's no difference in the level of success. But frankly, it's a pretty rare waitressing job that would match an office job in pay and benefits and advancement opportunity.

*For the record, I worked as a waitress in high school and college and didn't especially care for it.

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2 minutes ago, Rap541 said:

*For the record, I worked as a waitress in high school and college and didn't especially care for it.

Same here and I will add that when I worked as a waitress the older women who worked with me were the first ones urging me to stay in school!  Anyway success is a relative thing of course - working hard to support yourself and your family is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of but to be in your 40s and still doing work you could have been doing right out of high school, making the same money you would have been making straight out of high school well I think most of us would trade that in for an office job that let us sit down a lot of the time (just me?).

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Well that was never my experience - I made decent money waitressing but I made a lot more when I finished school and got that first "office" job!  All I can say is at my age right now if I had to work as a waitress it would be a lot harder than it was when I was 20!  Even if the money was the same (and IME it isn't) I'd take the office job over waitressing any day of the week!

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1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

Would Darlene or Becky be more “successful” if they worked an office job?

If they're happy doing what they're doing I think that's one definition of success.  Darlene in particular though seems to feel that being a waitress is not what she saw herself doing at this stage of her life.  

I didn't watch the reboot can someone tell me why Darlene can't find work in her field?  I'm assuming she had a field.  I don't see Darlene as ever having been a SAHM or if she was one it wouldn't have been for long.  Not her style!

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2 hours ago, Rap541 said:

With no mention of him by the family? I mean... dang....

Any chance they will retcon that character? I wouldn't mind it. I don't really remember Jerry and I don't know who played him and if they would get a new actor or what. 

I am disappointed they got rid of Jackie's son, simply because I like seeing her interact as a mom and aunt.  I guess with Roseanne gone, we'll see her interact as a mom, aunt, and daughter. 

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Jackie's son Andy, and Jerry the fourth Connor child were both still toddlers when the show aired so I don't think there's any need to use the same actors so it could be anyone. 

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IIRC, Darlene was in publishing (and wrote on the side?) and got laid off. I can buy finding similar jobs with benefits being hard to find for women her age.

Darlene encouraged Becky to take a hotel management course at the local college(?) last season. Said she could have a degree and a good job in several years. I hope that thread recurs.

Pretty sure both Jerry and Andy still exist, they just haven't been dealt with yet. At least that's what TPTB said last season - that they'd get to them eventually. I think it's likely Roseanne's son Buck might have played Jerry again had she not gotten herself fired, but I assume if he eventually appears he will be recast. Andy could be any number of hilarious young actors to play off Laurie Metcalf.

Edited by jsbt
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3 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

If they're happy doing what they're doing I think that's one definition of success.  Darlene in particular though seems to feel that being a waitress is not what she saw herself doing at this stage of her life.  

I didn't watch the reboot can someone tell me why Darlene can't find work in her field?  I'm assuming she had a field.  I don't see Darlene as ever having been a SAHM or if she was one it wouldn't have been for long.  Not her style!

I agree. There is NOTHING wrong with honest work. But it seems like Becky isn't making enough to take good care of herself and is generally unhappy. And Darlene is not happy with her work either, though I got the sense her job paid a little better (better tips?  + benefits - Crystal's reason for referring her).

In Season 10, it was revealed that Darlene was fired from her job. I get that without her full-time job, Darlene cannot afford to live wherever she was (Chicago?) and it makes sense for her to be at home with her parents. And I get the kind of place that Lanford is. I used to live in a similar town with few jobs that people tend to hold on to. But with the exception of Jackie's life coach storyline and Roseanne driving an uber, there has been no mention of non-traditional income sources that didn't exist 20 years ago. I kept expecting Darlene to talk about wanting time to work on her book or trying to snag some freelance clients to supplement her income, especially since she lives with family and childcare isn't an issue. Even if they're hustling with side jobs, I'd like to see the younger generation of Conners do a little better in 2018. 

13 minutes ago, jsbt said:

IIRC, Darlene was in publishing (and wrote on the side?) and got laid off. I can buy finding similar jobs with benefits being hard to find for women her age.

Darlene encouraged Becky to take a hotel management course at the local college(?) last season. Said she could have a degree and a good job in several years. I hope that thread recurs.

Pretty sure both Jerry and Andy still exist, they just haven't been dealt with yet. At least that's what TPTB said last season - that they'd get to them eventually. I think it's likely Roseanne's son Buck might have played Jerry again had she not gotten herself fired, but I assume if he eventually appears he will be recast. Andy could be any number of hilarious young actors to play off Laurie Metcalf.

I had forgotten about Becky's interest in hotel management. I, too, hope they revisit that. And also explain what she's been up to over the years. 

I know that Jerry still exists (though I'm happy even if he doesn't) but I'm not so sure about Andy. I don't follow the showrunners/TPTB but Jackie made it sound like she had no one. There was no mention of him last season. 

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2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I've made the same $$ waiting tables 3-4 days a week with 6 hour days than I have working 10-hour days Mon-Fri at some office jobs.

 

1 hour ago, BlossomCulp said:

Well that was never my experience - I made decent money waitressing but I made a lot more when I finished school and got that first "office" job!  All I can say is at my age right now if I had to work as a waitress it would be a lot harder than it was when I was 20!  Even if the money was the same (and IME it isn't) I'd take the office job over waitressing any day of the week!

It can really depend on what state you live in. Mininum wage in Illinois is $8.25, but servers only get paid $4.95 because they get tipped. In Washington state, minimum wage is $11.50 (and will be at $13.50 in 2020) and servers get paid the full amount plus tips.

It also depends on what kind of restaurant you work at. The pricer the food, the bigger the tips (usually). But a dive restaurant in an economically disadvantaged area probably doesn't bring in a lot of tips. Waitressing at the casino probably brings in better tips because of people feeling generous when they're winning, but I've never worked at a casino so I could be totally wrong about that.

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On 10/18/2018 at 5:27 PM, buffy11bnl said:

Ugh, David’s Mom was an abusive, alcoholic nightmare - it’s the reason Roseanne let him come live with the family (he was planning on running away) so hopefully it’s just something the writers decided on and not an indication that they are in touch with the “other” grandma.

I agree she was horrible, but maybe the kids refer to her as MeeMaw. LOL Wrong show, I know, but it is David's, aka Johnny Galecki's mother, so you never know.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 9:56 AM, peacheslatour said:

I did too. There times on the original show, when he was so heavy he was constantly sweating and pale. I was afraid he was going to have a heart attack right in front of our eyes.

And now he looks like a cancer patient. I thought he looked better with a little weight on him.

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It is not unusual to depict Christians in a negative light on Disney shows. That's what they do. If there is a criminal or murderer or hypocrite or even a terrorist more  often than not they are depicted as Christians. It is par for the course for sitcoms that pass the smell test for Hollywood these days. It is almost a requirement. The Conners are going to toe that line. No big deal.  

If you want to see Christians or other people of faith being treated fairly and with respect you have to watch Hallmark. Not ABC.

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5 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:
5 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Would Darlene or Becky be more “successful” if they worked an office job?

It's not really a question of success but of being able to live comfortably.  If the office job was a permanent 9-5 with a steady salary and benefits it would be a real step up from the precariousness of the waitress jobs they both seem to have right now.   Waitress on this show has always seemed to be another way of saying "just getting by" and that's not always true of course, but in the context of The Conners and it's earlier incarnations I think that's what it was meant to be.  

 

4 hours ago, Rap541 said:

Darlene certainly seems to think so - she had to be talked into taking the waitressing job that had benefits.

The unpleasant reality is that waitressing is usually less than minimum wage and can be physically debilitating the older you get. So "often pays less" and "rarely includes full time or benefits" and "gets harder the older you get" coupled with "rare promotional opportunities" doesn't compare well with "at least minimum wage, sometimes more" and "can often be full time with benefits" and "doesn't involve physically standing all day" and "sometimes involves promotions". 

There's no dishonor in a job like waitressing - it earns money and I know people who really like it, but it's not a job that requires much skill or training. There's a reason Becky is a waitress - she's a high school drop out who doesn't have the skills to get a job that has more opportunity. There's a reason her parents didn't want her to quit school and marry Mark - by quitting school, she cut down on her chances to get a better job. 

I will be fair and say if a waitressing job and an office job had the same pay, benefits, etc, then there's no difference in the level of success. But frankly, it's a pretty rare waitressing job that would match an office job in pay and benefits and advancement opportunity.

*For the record, I worked as a waitress in high school and college and didn't especially care for it.

 

4 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

Same here and I will add that when I worked as a waitress the older women who worked with me were the first ones urging me to stay in school!  Anyway success is a relative thing of course - working hard to support yourself and your family is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of but to be in your 40s and still doing work you could have been doing right out of high school, making the same money you would have been making straight out of high school well I think most of us would trade that in for an office job that let us sit down a lot of the time (just me?).

Darlene would probably prefer a job where:

a) she isn't on her feet all day

b) she doesn't have to fake being cheerful to get tips, and

c) she doesn't have to wear a skimpy outfit with a push-up bra

Some people would thrive on the "being cheerful to earn tips" part, but Darlene doesn't like other people! I can't imagine she enjoys any part of waitressing, except the benefits.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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11 hours ago, langford peel said:

It is not unusual to depict Christians in a negative light on Disney shows. That's what they do.

It is?  I guess I mainly see Disney Junior,  This has never been my experience.

Edited by CherryAmes
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10 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Some people would thrive on the "being cheerful to earn tips" part, but Darlene doesn't like other people! I can't imagine she enjoys any part of waitressing, except the benefits.

That's another aspect of 'success' and waitressing vs an office job.  It's perfectly possible that both options are going to make you feel like you've hit bottom but at least with an office job no one will see you except your co-workers.  If you end up in a call centre (as one example of an office job few of us aspire to) you don't need to worry that you're going to have to be nice to people you know who can leave you a tip.  Or not.  Maybe it's false pride but it's a real thing and shouldn't be handwaved away - getting to be in your 40s and to have had a professional job in line with your education and then to have to take whatever job you can to feed your kids is already going to be hard.  To have that job be one where everyone can plainly see that you're not doing what you want with your life would suck.

Edited by CherryAmes
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On 10/17/2018 at 12:35 AM, Court said:

I've found my family laughs a lot during times of crisis. It's how we make it through.

Very true. We switched my son's sleeping pill and now I have a whole bottle of the old one. I've taken them occasionally when I can't sleep. The scenario above has happened as well.

When my son was younger, the doctor's switched his ADD meds to a higher dosage. I had an entire unused bottle of the older dosage and had an offer from an adult friend to buy them from me! For herself. My son had inattentive ADD and the pills worked as uppers for those who didn't need them for medical reasons. As far as the opiods, the news stories about people's addictions had me so freaked out, that I was afraid to take the pain killer prescription that I was given after a breast cancer/all over breast reduction surgery last year. I took one instead of two every four hours, and switched to Extra Strength Tylenol before I finished the bottle. Then I flushed the leftovers.

Last year, a man shot and killed a local doctor because the doctor refused to prescribe opiods for his wife's knee. The wife was obviously not the only one taking them. 

So, using Roseanne's addiction as a cause of death, and her family remaining clueless as to the lengths that she would go to get pills, is quite timely. I think it was well done, and the scene between Mary and John on the front porch was so well done. 

I noticed that TV Land started running the old Roseanne episodes on the Saturday before The Conners premiered. I hadn't seen any announcements for it, so I'm wondering if it was just done quietly, with no fanfare, to avoid a controversy. They did run promos for The Conners throughout the marathon that day, so it was used for that reason. It was the first time I had seen Roseanne back on the air since EVERYONE stopped showing reruns.  As much as I hate what Roseanne did, and think that she's awful in real life, I do miss the old shows.

Someone up thread mentioned Dan helping Mark choose a seat mate and that it went against "old Dan's" attitudes in regards to DJ as a child, and his balking at any mention of the fact that his only son (well, then) could be anything less than straight and/or masculine. Dan is a grandpa now. Do you know how many times I've pointed to my parents and yelled, "THOSE ARE NOT THE PEOPLE WHO RAISED ME!" 

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As I mentioned upthread Dan also got used to Leon, Nancy, etc. He's a certain man of a certain time and place who was/is uncomfortable getting too in-depth with some issues, but he did evolve in his own way. I feel his approach to Mark both this season and last is very true to him - ooky and awkward on certain details but loving and able to connect nonetheless, often after grousing.

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19 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Would Darlene or Becky be more “successful” if they worked an office job?

Probably. Unless they were waitresses at Alinea or something super high class. 

1 hour ago, jsbt said:

As I mentioned upthread Dan also got used to Leon, Nancy, etc. He's a certain man of a certain time and place who was/is uncomfortable getting too in-depth with some issues, but he did evolve in his own way. I feel his approach to Mark both this season and last is very true to him - ooky and awkward on certain details but loving and able to connect nonetheless, often after grousing.

Leon, Nancy, the shrill mother... so much gayness near the end. 

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Just a reminder that everyone is entitled to their own opinions as long as they don't break site rules. Discussing religion can be challenging but as long as it's directed at the show and not fellow posters, it's fine. 

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On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 9:29 AM, DXD526 said:

The running bit with Jackie cleaning the kitchen was so well played. It was a joke at first, but then just kept escalating, to the point at the end where she's torn the whole place apart. It was heartbreaking when Darlene walked in to see all the cabinets open and empty and Jackie looking distressed and clueless. I've done that kind of thing in that situation, threw all my efforts into a stupid task just because I didn't know what else to do with myself. They played that so well. 

We had a family tragedy, and my father's cousins decided they would do my mother a favor and clean the kitchen. It was literally six months later before my mother found where they had put away a lot of the pots and pans.

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1 hour ago, eel2178 said:

We had a family tragedy, and my father's cousins decided they would do my mother a favor and clean the kitchen. It was literally six months later before my mother found where they had put away a lot of the pots and pans.

On 9/11 I cleaned all the floors, all the windows, the walls, everything I could get my hands on got scrubbed, polished or scoured.

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1 hour ago, eel2178 said:

We had a family tragedy, and my father's cousins decided they would do my mother a favor and clean the kitchen. It was literally six months later before my mother found where they had put away a lot of the pots and pans.

Yeah, it happens, and that's what I loved about it.  It was perfect for Jackie, that she'd want to step in and take care of things, and she'd reach the point where she was just inventing things to do in order to be there doing something, with the result being, as Darlene said, "we can't sit on the couch or use the kitchen."

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6 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

 As far as the opiods, the news stories about people's addictions had me so freaked out, that I was afraid to take the pain killer prescription that I was given after a breast cancer/all over breast reduction surgery last year. I took one instead of two every four hours, and switched to Extra Strength Tylenol before I finished the bottle. Then I flushed the leftovers

That is one of the saddest stories I've heard. Those opiates were prescribed responsibly and could have been used responsibly. Of course, if you didn't need a stronger dose, that's fine, but this whole attitude (not you specifically) that people in acute postsurgical pain should just suffer when there is relief available is taking things way, way too far in the other direction. People in legitimate pain generally do not get addicted to narcotics. They may become physically dependent on them if used long term, but if you're using them to treat pain, you are not abusing them, you are using them for their intended purpose. I wish instead of all the hysterical stories, the media would educate people on use vs. abuse, and what addiction actually is.

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19 hours ago, langford peel said:

It is not unusual to depict Christians in a negative light on Disney shows. That's what they do. If there is a criminal or murderer or hypocrite or even a terrorist more  often than not they are depicted as Christians. It is par for the course for sitcoms that pass the smell test for Hollywood these days. It is almost a requirement. The Conners are going to toe that line. No big deal.  

If you want to see Christians or other people of faith being treated fairly and with respect you have to watch Hallmark. Not ABC.

what the what????? 

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On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 11:19 PM, BookWoman56 said:

...and while I acknowledge the "very special episode" feel of this episode, it's not a bad thing to remind the public in general that ODs happen not just to obviously addicted people but to regular middle class people who become dependent on painkillers and one night take one or two too many pills, or take them in combination with other prescription or OTC meds, and the cumulative effect is death. 

A more important message would have been, "Don't mix opioids with booze, even just a little bit." The majority of "middle class" overdoses are due to thinking a glass of wine and two Vicodin are no big deal.

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On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 1:17 PM, ButterQueen said:

I also loved the ball of necklaces Becky found.  I lost my mom last year, and while cleaning her house, my siblings and I had a couple WTF laughs as well.  It’s how we survive the pain.

When my dad died in 2008, we found cigar bands in his dresser draw. He hadn't smoked cigars since 1967.

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25 minutes ago, eel2178 said:

A more important message would have been, "Don't mix opioids with booze, even just a little bit." The majority of "middle class" overdoses are due to thinking a glass of wine and two Vicodin are no big deal.

I’ve heard people joke about that, on TV and in real life. Like “pop a cork and a Xany”-type things. Scary.

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22 hours ago, langford peel said:

It is not unusual to depict Christians in a negative light on Disney shows. That's what they do. If there is a criminal or murderer or hypocrite or even a terrorist more  often than not they are depicted as Christians. It is par for the course for sitcoms that pass the smell test for Hollywood these days. It is almost a requirement. The Conners are going to toe that line. No big deal.  

If you want to see Christians or other people of faith being treated fairly and with respect you have to watch Hallmark. Not ABC.

I honestly fail to see the relevance of this to the Conners 

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On 10/22/2018 at 10:26 PM, langford peel said:

It is not unusual to depict Christians in a negative light on Disney shows. That's what they do. If there is a criminal or murderer or hypocrite or even a terrorist more  often than not they are depicted as Christians. It is par for the course for sitcoms that pass the smell test for Hollywood these days. It is almost a requirement. The Conners are going to toe that line. No big deal.  

If you want to see Christians or other people of faith being treated fairly and with respect you have to watch Hallmark. Not ABC.

Not sure if you're being serious here or not but if you are you might want to give "The Kids are Alright" a try.  Big Catholic family and nary a terrorist in sight.  Fair warning, some of the brothers did throw a few punches.

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30 minutes ago, BlossomCulp said:

Not sure if you're being serious here or not but if you are you might want to give "The Kids are Alright" a try.  Big Catholic family and nary a terrorist in sight.  Fair warning, some of the brothers did throw a few punches.

Oh, but according to some Christians (my sister) Catholics aren't really Christian so that doesn't count. I'm Catholic by marriage,don't practice it anymore, but the rest of my family does. 

 Ahem. Topic? I believe all this started because DJ's wife said Darlene was going to hell, right?

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22 minutes ago, ChiCricket said:

Ahem. Topic? I believe all this started because DJ's wife said Darlene was going to hell, right?

Yes, Mary said something about how Aunt Darlene referenced reincarnation - that Granny Rose could come back as [something].  Geena smirked that Aunt Darlene needs to put down her yoga mat and pick up a Bible.  Darlene said it's not some radical idea, just something that hundreds of millions of people believe, and Geena rejoined that they all better make a reservation in hell because it's going to be crowded.  Darlene said they already have a cabana.

What remains to be seen - and what will probably be answered in the "Separation of Church and Dan" episode - is whether this is good-natured teasing that goes on in the family, where Geena believes one thing (which David also believes?), Darlene believes another, and the rest also all have their own idea on such issues, and they just tease each other about the differences in those beliefs because they care about/are comfortable enough with each other to do so with no hard feelings, or whether Geena really thinks everyone needs to pick up a bible or they're going to hell, and Darlene's way of dealing with that refrain by this point is with dry humor at least part of the time, rather than calling her on her shit.

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On 2018-10-22 at 9:26 PM, langford peel said:

It is not unusual to depict Christians in a negative light on Disney shows. That's what they do. If there is a criminal or murderer or hypocrite or even a terrorist more  often than not they are depicted as Christians. It is par for the course for sitcoms that pass the smell test for Hollywood these days. It is almost a requirement. The Conners are going to toe that line. No big deal.  

If you want to see Christians or other people of faith being treated fairly and with respect you have to watch Hallmark. Not ABC.

April, Bailey and Catherine Avery from Grey's Anatomy are all Christians and protrayed positively on ABC. There actually Christians on all Shonda Rhimes show. Frankie and the rest of Hecks on The Middle were all regular church going Christians. Geena has been portrayed positively so far and her religion is just a part of her character.

I wonder if DJ's issues are less of the more typical depression/PTSD and more of the told his CO to fuck off one too many times variety. Residual anger and just not being good at following orders could be why he wasn't allowed to reenlist. It would be very Conner of him. I feel like if he was having PTSD or depressive issues we would have seen hints of it last few episodes. Losing your mother would set things like that off. Although I think the writers are just hedging their bets to see how much rust Michael Fishman is capable of shaking off 

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On 10/19/2018 at 3:07 PM, Ottis said:

Absolutely agree with you on Mark and where he is at. I was commenting more on how the show presents Mark, and how other characters around Mark, perceive Mark. The piece that was missing was any sort of dialogue around how Mark might interact with his chosen seatmate. Because as others, and I, have noted, other boys might not understand. The family instead went right to supporting Mark, and Dan went to making a pro/con list. That felt a lot like the show was telling us to accept that Mark is gay, nothing to see here, let's move on. That seemed rushed from earlier this year, IMO.  I hope they spend more time on it, and not in a cliched way.

I actually hope they don't because I'm not comfortable with the sexual orientation of a minor that young being a topic on any TV show.  Besides, as has been pointed out, he's likely too young to actually be "fully processed" in that way anyway.

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44 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I actually hope they don't because I'm not comfortable with the sexual orientation of a minor that young being a topic on any TV show.  Besides, as has been pointed out, he's likely too young to actually be "fully processed" in that way anyway.

Would it be ok if a 12-13 boy showed interest in girls? IIRC 13-year old Becky was dating on the original show.

Edited by DangerousMinds
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14 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Would it be ok if a 12-13 boy showed interest in girls? IIRC 13-year old Becky was dating on the original show.

I'm not sure when I'd feel it's not creepy to make a recurring theme of dating with any child 10 or younger.  Not sure how I feel about age 13, but perhaps puberty would change my feelings on that.  I didn't watch the original show.

I'm OK so far with the way the show has handled Mark, but I just would feel it was a little creepy to keep making a subject of sexuality with a child 10 or younger.  After puberty, maybe.  Still not sure.

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6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I'm OK so far with the way the show has handled Mark, but I just would feel it was a little creepy to keep making a subject of sexuality with a child 10 or younger.  After puberty, maybe.  Still not sure.

It would (should?) be about far more than sexuality. That's what I meant by not handling it in a cliched way. The fact that Mark seems to like boys is a result of who Mark feels he is, and that part can happen at 13 or younger. I am not trying to state anything political. I'm only saying that this is a sensitive issue in our society, and like All In the Family did with similar issues, The Connors could explore it. I'd like that, and i would like it even more if they did it openly and a bit raw, like AitF did. get it out there and show different perspectives. 

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My understanding is that gay/LGBT teens are aware from an early age that they are "different" from the norm. It's not articulated as sexuality, but they do have same-sex crushes often before puberty, for example. When I was 9 or 10, I definitely "liked" certain boys in my grade-school class, not unusual at all. Why couldn't that be extended to boys liking boys/girls liking girls?

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1 hour ago, Ottis said:

It would (should?) be about far more than sexuality. That's what I meant by not handling it in a cliched way. The fact that Mark seems to like boys is a result of who Mark feels he is, and that part can happen at 13 or younger. I am not trying to state anything political. I'm only saying that this is a sensitive issue in our society, and like All In the Family did with similar issues, The Connors could explore it. I'd like that, and i would like it even more if they did it openly and a bit raw, like AitF did. get it out there and show different perspectives. 

When it's very taboo in our society to sexualize children in any way, (whether as hetero or gay) I would think not exploring the issue of who they like "that way" on a TV show would be the more PC thing to do.  I didn't think sexualizing children or treating them as sexual creatures was suddenly OK.  But what do I know?  Maybe I'm just confused.

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On 10/17/2018 at 12:18 PM, Rap541 said:

I just... am tired of the "gay kid changes an older person's view on homosexuality" trope. And I hate that it's always portrayed as an ignorant older person finally getting a clue on how to be decent. The reality in this world? Is that Mark *wearing skirts* would be a HUGE issue in an elementary school in the Midwest, complete with threats towards the family etc. Also complete with beatings at school and school employees willfully "not seeing" the incident and possibly even the school insisting on a dress code so little Mr Fancy Skirts would be required to dress a certain way. I just think this gives a really unrealistic image of what coming out in middle school really looks like. It would be nice to see a more honest portrayal and less "Silly Dan finally gets a clue on how to be open minded because his grandson is gay and so he can finally see gay people as something other than gay stereotypes."

Like, for example, how about a discussion with Mark on how Enrique or Joey (or whatever his name was) might not actually want to be "seatmates" with a fellow boy? That his friends might not have crushes on him and might not reciprocate? Because trust me, however open minded Dan and Darlene might be, Enrique or Joey's parents might not be enthralled with this turn of events. 

I suppose I really dont want to see a painful story about gay hate but at the same time... I wish television shows would stop presenting this fantasy of "when you come out, your family will understand and things will only get better". Because that really is a fantasy for a lot of people.

while it can be true that it leads to bullying and hate, it doesn't always.  My daughter came out in 10th grade as trans and finished high school as herself.  She attends a gender clinic in a Cincinnati Children's hospital with over 1000  patients ranging from elementary to college.  i live in Northern Kentucky and from attending meetings at the clinic, can honestly say every major school in the northern Ky area probably has at least one child that is out and probably more.  Ranging from pretty rural schools to more urban.  It is much more prevalent than most people are aware.  Luckily children today seem to have a more relaxed attitude than in the past, my daughters experience was amazing.

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3 hours ago, Yeah No said:

When it's very taboo in our society to sexualize children in any way, (whether as hetero or gay) I would think not exploring the issue of who they like "that way" on a TV show would be the more PC thing to do.  I didn't think sexualizing children or treating them as sexual creatures was suddenly OK.  But what do I know?  Maybe I'm just confused.

I don't think you're confused.  Let's reverse this.  Say Mark was Michelle, Darlene and David's daughter, who is 9-11 (the actor who plays Mark Conner Healy is age 12).  She gets dressed up and made up like a Lolita and Dan is helping her decide which boy she should choose as her seatmate on the bus for the school field trip.  Would this fly?  Probably not.  It would be sexualizing a little girl.  The reverse is OK because Mark is acknowledging his gayness and "coming out" so it's the PC thing to do.  According to some people anyway.

Edited by CrystalBlue

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