S12.E03: The Procreation Calculation

[AriAu]

I did laugh a few times and this is a sitcom, so that is good. We also got a small glimpse of skeevy Howard, which is always fun.

So the show will end with Raj's wedding and all that goes with it??? I sure hope not since Raj centric episodes are my least favorite....but it will still be better than  watching Leonard and Penny's marriage dissolve over the rest of the season, which is what they are setting up only to have them get back together at the end and, ta da, get pregnant.

Quote

 Am I the only one who finds Amy just absolutely creepy a lot of the time? 

I am surprised that she is ever normal-think back to her first appearance and she has come a looooooong way. It was actually nice to see her normal self back

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

And in real life, it's not about loving each other, it's about being compatible, and a couple isn't compatible if one of them desperately wants children and the other one does not.

But, again, if you've known someone for several years before you married, and never discussed children, how desperately could you possibly want them?  Even without a specific discussion, surely Penny would have noticed if Leonard oohed and aahed over every baby carriage they passed.  If he constantly spoke of his dreams of his son winning the Nobel Prize he never did.  If he discussed the merits of various diapers when commercials came on.  In the however many years this show has been on, there has been nothing that Leonard has said or done that screams "My love for you will not conquer my bigger and larger desire to have children!"

[wendyg]

13 hours ago, Katy M said:

They shouldn't be.  There are loads of couples who have both wanted children, assumed that they were going to have children, but couldn't get pregnant, and their marriages don't always fall apart.  And vice-versa, couples who both didn't want kids, but before they got around to permanently fixing the possibility, they get pregnant. The marriage has to come first.  Even before the kids.  Or, you're just not going to make it.  

Quite. I felt very differently about hearing that Tony Randall, aged 75, had married a 25yo when I learned that he had always wanted children but he and his wife had been unable to have them, and that they'd stayed married for *more than 50 years*, apparently happily, until she died. Randall and his second wife had a couple of children before he died.

[nygma619]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

I really hated that the show chickened out and had her agree to have kids after all, and I'm worried the same thing will happen with Penny. Why can't TV shows just let people be happily childless?

Some people change their minds, some don't. Why is Bernadette not allowed to change her mind anymore than Penny is?

 

They kind of did with Robin & Ted in How I Met Your Mother, and fans didn't care about that representation in the finale.

[HazelEyes4325]

Bernadette can just go suck it after her conversation with Penny.  The whole "Penny doesn't want a baby" storyline was kind of all the problems with pregnancy in TV rolled into one episode...and yet, I'm glad they did that.  It's is 100% okay for anyone, real or fictional, to just not want to be a parent and they shouldn't have to justify it.  Of course, if it turns out that Penny changes her mind or has an oopsie, I am taking that back.  Honestly, I'm hoping that it is never mentioned again because baby angst is not what I need in this show.

My son came down right at the end of the episode and thought the Batmobile was the coolest thing he had ever seen on TV.

5 minutes ago, nygma619 said:

Some people change their minds, some don't. Why is Bernadette not allowed to change her mind anymore than Penny is?

 

1

It's not that Bernadette isn't allowed to change her mind, it is that she told Penny that Penny WILL change her mind.

[proserpina65]

25 minutes ago, Frost said:

I am fine with the arranged marriage.  I'm unhappy they made Anu into a bully.  Her behavior at the restaurant on their first date to the wait staff was horrible.  All four of the women in relationships with the four main men are domineering.  Bernadette and the allowance she gives Howard.  Penny basically always getting her way.  Amy ordering Sheldon to play with his phone when she thought he was being inappropriate.  And now Anu.   She stated outright she wants to marry him because he's tall and he caved because she proposed.  I find it irritating.  

Note to Chuck Lorre - strong, confident women don't have to be harridans!!!!

The behavior on the first date is what turned me off about Anu as well.

 

25 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

He is a born romantic so a happy ending for him is love.

Exactly.  An arranged marriage could work if the writers actually gave him someone at least a little bit compatible, but not to someone who is a bully.

[Zoe]

I think L&P were fine in this episode.  Having kids has come up before, and they both treated it as something they just assumed would happen one day.  Given Penny's age and the fact that she actually has a career now, it's not surprising that she's starting to lean one way or the other.

[AnnaRose]

I'll have to watch this episode again, but I really didn't like Raj's potential wife.  She seemed very pushy and incompatible with Raj, and the proposal was weird and reeked of desperation to me. 

[proserpina65]

10 minutes ago, nygma619 said:

Some people change their minds, some don't. Why is Bernadette not allowed to change her mind anymore than Penny is?

 

They kind of did with Robin & Ted in How I Met Your Mother, and fans didn't care about that representation in the finale.

Because they very rarely ever follow through with the woman not wanting children on a tv show.  Robin and Cristina on Grey's Anatomy are the only exceptions I can think of.  (How I Met Your Mother's finale was wrong in so many ways that Robin's stance on children was nothing.)

[BlossomCulp]

I really liked this episode.  The scene with Bernadette and Howard sitting on the couch holding hands horrified at the music coming from Stuart's room particularly cracked me up.  Count me in as another who liked that Penny and Leonard are not always on the same page and this episode certainly highlighted that but somehow they still work together.  And I am sorry Leonard but you've been with Penny one way or another for 11 years now and only NOW are you saying you expect them to have kids?  What were you waiting for?  You are pushing 40.  When did you expect to have this conversation?  When Penny was 40 and you were pushing 50??  Made perfect sense to me that the longer they went without kids the less likely it was going to be something that was going to happen.  

Edited October 5, 2018 by BlossomCulp

[Gummo]

Not so-small voice: I really enjoyed this episode!

I like that the show is dealing with the idea of an arranged marriage with respect. I think Howard was supposed to be a stand-in for most of the show's white American audience to whom the idea sounds archaic and arbitrary and unromantic, and the way Raj talked to him about it and the way Howard came around to supporting his best friend was both believable and in character. As to Anu, she may end up being perfect for Raj -- he NEEDS someone practical and grounded and good with money -- he's none of those things. And it appears she needs someone to look past her hard, practical side and bring out the romantic in her. I was dubious last week -- as I'm sure I was supposed to be -- but I'm loving this storyline now. 

As I also loved The Return of Grossly Inappropriate Amy! Whenever we get a glimpse into what's really going on in her head -- it's a strange and wild place, indeed.

Howard & Bernadette on the couch was so funny and so cringeworthy. And it's nice that they've written a sweet nerd girl for Stuart, finally.

Leonard and Penny - I don't know where this is going, if anywhere. But I don't think it's unrealistic. A lot of couples don't really discuss kids ahead of time because having kids is so assumed to be part of marriage. it's taken for granted. But L&P are the oddest couple on the show for more than that reason -- quite a statement for a show that has Sheldon & Amy -- not only because they have nothing in common but because the only thing that seems to keep them together is their insecurities. Before Leonard, Penny was with big buff guys who often treated her like trash; before Penny, Leonard had never had a real relationship at all. So he has the hot girl of his dreams and she has someone who worships her. Which is fine, at first, but it's a shaky basis for a future.

The Batmobile looked just like the model I built when I was 10! Better painted, though.

[BlossomCulp]

Just to add that I love when this show demonstrates that Penny  loves and understands Leonard.  Her arranging for him to drive the Batmobile reminded me of the episode where she had sold the car he bought her and had taken a picture of it and put it in a frame because she knew that was something he'd really like to have. 

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Gummo said:

I like that the show is dealing with the idea of an arranged marriage with respect. I think Howard was supposed to be a stand-in for most of the show's white American audience to whom the idea sounds archaic and arbitrary and unromantic, and the way Raj talked to him about it and the way Howard came around to supporting his best friend was both believable and in character. As to Anu, she may end up being perfect for Raj -- he NEEDS someone practical and grounded and good with money -- he's none of those things. And it appears she needs someone to look past her hard, practical side and bring out the romantic in her. I was dubious last week -- as I'm sure I was supposed to be -- but I'm loving this storyline now. 

I agree.  I tried to get my parents to arrange a marriage for me, but they wouldn't do it.  I liked that Howard was able to voice his concerns and then be supportive.  If Anu is wanting to discuss finances, I think they will also discuss the other things that Raj was surprised L&P didn't talk about.  So, in the coming weeks as they are planning, if they are truly incompatible, it will come to light and they won't marry.  I kind of hope it works out, though.

[CherryAmes]

I really liked this episode and I think one of the things I liked best was that while Bernie wanted Penny to have kids and tried to make it seem like it was something she really should do the way the show was written demonstrated that having kids isn't all sweetness and light!   It was also very believable to me that both Leonard and Penny assumed they would have kids one day but neither had given when one day becomes today any real thought.   I know lots of couples who are like that and most of them ended up not having kids.  It's pretty cool to hit your late 30s and realize that no, no you actually do not have to have children.  In this respect it was also good that Leonard was reminded that he had a pretty crappy childhood and that his brother and sister both had provided more than enough children to carry on the Hofstedter name!

I agree with others that bringing in Penny's Dad was a low blow but it's also typical for BBT.  They also got Bernie's father involved much earlier in the series when Bernadette didn't want children and had lied to her parents and said it was Howard who was responsible for not giving them grandchildren.

Edited October 5, 2018 by CherryAmes

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

I agree with others that bringing in Penny's Dad was a low blow but it's also typical for BBT.  They also got Bernie's father involved much earlier in the series when Bernadette didn't want children and had lied to her parents and said it was Howard who was responsible for not giving them grandchildren.

If I were Leonard, I would not have gone running to Penny's father to tell him she didn't want kids.  If I were Howard, though, I wouldn't want to be blamed for something because Bernadette wouldn't/couldn't be honest with her own family.  I wouldn't have made a special effort to tell them, but if it came up while I was around, yeah, I'd rat her out in a second.  That wasn't fair to Howard at all.

[AnnaRose]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I agree.  I tried to get my parents to arrange a marriage for me, but they wouldn't do it.  I liked that Howard was able to voice his concerns and then be supportive.  If Anu is wanting to discuss finances, I think they will also discuss the other things that Raj was surprised L&P didn't talk about.  So, in the coming weeks as they are planning, if they are truly incompatible, it will come to light and they won't marry.  I kind of hope it works out, though.

I like the idea of arranged marriages, as long as the two people are able to meet and get to know each other and have a choice whether or not to go through with it.  Especially if the family members/parents who set them up know who their children truly are and are able to match them up well.  It's not that different than close friends setting-up two very marriage-minded single friends.

[Bronzedog]

I had a friend who once said she was relieved when she found out after she was married that her husband didn't want children.  She said they never discussed it before they were married.  So, it happens.

[Lady J]

2 hours ago, Frost said:

I am fine with the arranged marriage.  I'm unhappy they made Anu into a bully.  Her behavior at the restaurant on their first date to the wait staff was horrible.  All four of the women in relationships with the four main men are domineering.  Bernadette and the allowance she gives Howard.  Penny basically always getting her way.  Amy ordering Sheldon to play with his phone when she thought he was being inappropriate.  And now Anu.   She stated outright she wants to marry him because he's tall and he caved because she proposed.  I find it irritating.  

Note to Chuck Lorre - strong, confident women don't have to be harridans!!!!

These " men" are basically children, I guess they need strong women.

[LoneHaranguer]

13 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

And although it might not be an option in TBBT universe, those of us here IRL can actually purchase a working, road-worthy Batmobile replica if you have a couple of bucks lying around:

That explains why Leonard looked so big behind the wheel. The original Batmobile was a big car, even by 60's standards. These replicas are scaled-down versions. The scene was a mirror of when Leonard bought Penny a car.

6 hours ago, Browncoat said:

I didn’t like that Leonard brought Penny’s dad into the kids discussion.

He probably figured it was only fair since Penny had called his mother before.

[Quark]

Except for the end, this episode didn't convey much warmth. I hope that isn't a sign of things to come.

[CleoCaesar]

19 minutes ago, Lady J said:

These " men" are basically children, I guess they need strong women.

That's exactly what I was going to say. Bernie gives Howard an allowance because he can't be trusted not to blow his money on toys. Penny always gets her way because Leonard is a pushover. Amy orders Sheldon to play with his phone because he's a toddler who can't act appropriately in social situations. Anu is bossy because Raj has no spine or ability to control his finances like an adult.

The women on the show almost have to be domineering because the "men" are so immature. When people say TBBT is "misogynistic", I want to ask "Have you seen how the show portrays men?". The women are the only adults on the show.

[NutmegsDad]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

This is also the last season and to not give Raj at least the potential for a happy ending would seem cruel.  And despite his “asshole tendencies”. He is a born romantic so a happy ending for him is love.

First, we saw Raj unable to speak to women in the room without alcohol.

Next, we saw Raj trying to be a "ladies man" and weirding out any and all potential girlfriends with his skeevy behavior. (I'm still miffed that they never followed up with the Vet, and Drone Girl was because someone hit the Play Button just before final credits).

Now, we see Raj and Anu starting out, presumably to marriage and, then, love and a happy ending. Yeah, an arranged marriage, but not as off the mark as noted above with Sheldon/Amy and Howard/Bernadette.

So, we are at.... the Dawn of the Third Age of Koothrappali.

(Suck it, Lorre, some people DO watch it. :) )

[Twilight Man]

15 hours ago, mammaM said:

I've always had a problem with Leonard and Penny and I blame lazy/bad writing on the show's part. They never knew what to do with L and P after they got the two of them together. The show's original concept was opposites attract so the show made them as opposite as possible but after 12 years and little to no change, well, you end up with the mess that was this episode.

Hollywood is constantly "dragging" shows out that have the "boy meets girls, boy wants girl, boy can't get girl" concept.

Shows like "Get Smart", "Mork & Mindy", "Cheers", "Lois & Clark", etc. have the first seasons where the two leads are trying to "get" each other.

Somewhere in the middle of the show's run, the writers decide to have them get married,

(Yes, I know, Sam and Rebecca didn't get married, but they did spend the last season dating,

with a stupid plot involving trying to get Rebecca pregnant)

only to quickly discover that the writers have NO IDEA how to write for a show that features a married couple.

When they started to write this show in that direction, I knew that these writers were going to wind up in the same scenario.

"Friends", of course, took the "boy meets girl" concept allllllllllll the way to the end.

 

Next week, Hollywood Writing 101 will explore why TV shows that feature friends growing up in high school

tend to keep the show going beyond high school instead of just ending the show at graduation.  Class dismissed.

[CleoCaesar]

4 minutes ago, Twilight Man said:

"Friends", of course, took the "boy meets girl" concept allllllllllll the way to the end.

With Ross and Rachel, yes. But the writers also managed to write a totally functional, loving, drama-free couple: Monica and Chandler.

It all comes down to the quality of the couple, i.e. the writing. There's nothing stopping TV writers from creating great couples who don't have cheap breakup drama. It's very possible. My two favorite examples are Monica and Chandler, and Jake and Amy on Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

Penny and Leonard could have easily been one of those couples. Bit of a "will they or won't they" in the beginning, then getting together and being a functional couple with similar goals, values, and interests all the way to engagement and marriage. Stable couples aren't' necessarily boring. They just need to evolve and grow together.

The problem with Penny/Leonard to me is I don't know what's keeping them together. Penny doesn't seem super attracted to Leonard. Leonard can't share any of his interests with Penny. Penny doesn't want kids and Leonard does. Penny finds Leonard's hobbies childish. What do they even talk about?

They seem like a couple who only got together because of proximity and stayed together because of inertia.

[msani19]

4 hours ago, Frost said:

Note to Chuck Lorre - strong, confident women don't have to be harridans!!!!

Based on all his shows, he seems incapable of seeing that all women aren't awful

[taanja]

17 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

<small voice>I kind of liked it.</small voice>

At least, I really liked the two endings with Raj getting his romantic proposal and Leonard yelling, "Hop in, Robin!"

I didn't just kind of like it-- I laughed out loud! I will scream it from the rooftops (metaphorically that is ;-)

Penny and Leonard-- haha! Of course they didn't discuss having children. It is so true to their characters. And I liked how it was somewhat resolved--- Leonard's brother and sister have a crap ton of kids to carry on the Hofstadter name -- no need for more. I know many couples who decided NOT to have children -- all of them have been married more than 20 years and all are OK with their decision. I hope this show doesn't make Penny change her mind.

I loved Amy wanting Penny and herself to be preggers together!  and when Penny said-- I'll just be the cool aunt! Yup! That works!

I didn't mind the Stewart (Stuart) and girlfriend shtick. It was funny. Who cares if she has her own apartment-- it was done for laughs and I did-- laugh. It's a freakin' comedy! Yo!

The only thing I didn't really like is the Raj arranged marriage thing. Poor in the closet Raj-- getting married to a woman. Sigh. He will never be happy until he admits his true self to himself. Now that would be funny-- Raj finally realizing he is gay!

Otherwise a cute episode setting things up for the rest of the season.

Edited October 5, 2018 by taanja
Spelling

[BlossomCulp]

58 minutes ago, CleoCaesar said:

The problem with Penny/Leonard to me is I don't know what's keeping them together. Penny doesn't seem super attracted to Leonard. Leonard can't share any of his interests with Penny. Penny doesn't want kids and Leonard does. Penny finds Leonard's hobbies childish. What do they even talk about?

This has been a constant criticism of Penny and Leonard since the show began, to the point where they even joke about it on the show.  And to be honest I just don't get what the problem is.  I think Penny does love Leonard and there have been numerous times when they've shown that.  As to her thinking his hobbies are childish this is something all 3 of the women have said about the guys hobbies time and time again,  it's not unique to Penny by any means.  But even so Penny has taken the time to learn about many of Leonard's interests and has purchased things for him that reflect his hobbies.  What more can she do?  My husband is into stuff I have ZERO interest in and I am somewhat like Penny in that I tolerate them but I sure as hell don't share them!  Further he's an engineer who is that guy, you all know the one, he read a book in high school that one time.  I'm a librarian.  I guess when people go on about "what do they talk about" I find it funny, and a little annoying.  We share very few common interests on one level and yet we always manage to find something to talk about!

[Chit Chat]

4 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Bernadette can just go suck it after her conversation with Penny.

I agree.  I thought she'd be a little bit more supportive of Penny and at least have a rational discussion of the pros and cons of having children.  Bernadette was too flippant about it, IMO.  Bernadette just casually tuned her out.  

The remark Amy made to Penny about breast feeding each other's kids gave me the same reaction Penny had.  Did the writers really have to throw that line in?  Yuk. 

[Sarah 103]

17 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Raj is gonna make Cinnamon the flower girl, isn't he?

I think Haley might be old enough to be a flower girl (although I could be wrong). Cinnamon is going to be part of the wedding in some way. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I never ever thought we saw the end of Clingy, Kinda Creepy Amy. Did everyone forget her reaction last season when Penny finally admitted she was her best friend? She practically shoved Howard out of the window to get to Penny to hug her. I expect Amy to always have bordering on inappropriate feelings and reactions to Penny. She is the girl Amy always wished she was besties with, I don't think she is ever gonna completely stop being amazed at that and acting accordingly. 

The problem with Amy is that she's been all over the map. When they first introduced her, she was practically robotic and said she didn't even believe in the concept of love. Then when she became friends with Penny she turned into this clingy nerd girl who couldn't believe a "popular" kid was friends with her. At times she seems to have grown out of that, but at other times, not so much. 

I don't really understand why Anu doesn't just suggest they date. I mean, get to know each other! Geez.

Quote

And although it might not be an option in TBBT universe, those of us here IRL can actually purchase a working, road-worthy Batmobile replica if you have a couple of bucks lying around:

Holy crap, Batman! I just realized . . . the Batmobile has no convertible top. What happens when it rains? Batman and Robin just get soaked, I guess.

[Magnumfangirl]

30 minutes ago, ChitChat said:

The remark Amy made to Penny about breast feeding each other's kids gave me the same reaction Penny had.  Did the writers really have to throw that line in?  Yuk. 

That line was so gross that it ruined that scene.  The first part of Amy's meltdown was hilarious and I don't even like Amy. 

[Gummo]

3 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I just realized . . . the Batmobile has no convertible top. What happens when it rains? 

Robin raises the Batbrella, of course!

Edited October 5, 2018 by Gummo

[BlossomCulp]

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Then when she became friends with Penny she turned into this clingy nerd girl who couldn't believe a "popular" kid was friends with her.

I could buy this incarnation of Amy, what drove me crazy was the creepy less than subtle gay vibe.

[wendyg]

I can see I'm a party of one here, but I liked Anu. She's direct, confident, and understands what she wants. I didn't see her as a bully at all (which I suppose may say something about me).

[lorbeer]

I hope they'll figure out what this finale should be about before final episode.

I'm actually both surprised and not surprised that Penny doesn't want to have children. I'm not sursprised because it matches her personality. But I'm sursprised she's saying this NOW becasue I do remember them talking about children in previous seasons. E.g. the episode when Bernadette gave birth to her second child and everybody was talking about names for babies. I remember Leonard told he already had some names in mind and Penny said something like "You already picked names for our babies?". I don't recolect her saying or acting like she didn't want kids, though.

Edited October 5, 2018 by lorbeer

[AnnaRose]

3 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

That's exactly what I was going to say. Bernie gives Howard an allowance because he can't be trusted not to blow his money on toys. Penny always gets her way because Leonard is a pushover. Amy orders Sheldon to play with his phone because he's a toddler who can't act appropriately in social situations. Anu is bossy because Raj has no spine or ability to control his finances like an adult.

The women on the show almost have to be domineering because the "men" are so immature. When people say TBBT is "misogynistic", I want to ask "Have you seen how the show portrays men?". The women are the only adults on the show.

I feel the same way when people complain about Debra on Everybody Loves Raymond.  Granted I only saw a small percentage of the episodes, but in pretty much every one I saw Ray was acting like an immature child trying to get away with something.  I can't imagine how frustrating it would be dealing with a husband like that.

56 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The problem with Amy is that she's been all over the map. When they first introduced her, she was practically robotic and said she didn't even believe in the concept of love. Then when she became friends with Penny she turned into this clingy nerd girl who couldn't believe a "popular" kid was friends with her. At times she seems to have grown out of that, but at other times, not so much. 

I don't really understand why Anu doesn't just suggest they date. I mean, get to know each other! Geez.

Yes, Amy was so different when she was introduced.  I hated how robotic Mayim played her in the first few episodes.  She's come a long way since then, as has Sheldon.

About the dating thing:  maybe Anu is just like Raj in that she's afraid to date Raj because she thinks then he won't go through with marrying her.  Didn't Raj say he just had to get through 8 to 10 dates without revealing his true self?  Anu proposing on the first date when it looked like it wasn't going to work out makes me think she has the same concerns about the likelihood Raj would marry her if he gets to know her first.  That's a scary thought.

Edited October 5, 2018 by AnnaRose
Every one, not everyone, and other typos.

[CleoCaesar]

5 minutes ago, AnnaRose said:

I feel the same way when people complain about Debra on Everybody Loves Raymond.  Granted I only saw a small percentage of the episodes, but in pretty much every one I saw Ray was acting like an immature child trying to get away with something.  I can't imagine how frustrating it would be dealing with a husband like that.

YES! Exactly. Debra is the example I frequently give too of this phenomenon. Ray was an objectively bad husband and father. He was a manchild mama's boy who never did any chores, didn't like spending time with his kids, always sided with his mommy instead of his wife, the list goes on. In real life Debra would have divorced his ass pronto. They didn't even seem like they liked each other most of the time, much less loved.

But of course Debra is remembered in pop culture as the nagging wife. In reality she was the only adult in that marriage.

[BlossomCulp]

30 minutes ago, wendyg said:

I can see I'm a party of one here, but I liked Anu. She's direct, confident, and understands what she wants. I didn't see her as a bully at all (which I suppose may say something about me).

I liked her interactions with Raj (even liked her fingers crossed comment about her smoker boss) what I didn't like was the way she spoke to the server in the restaurant.  My Dad always used to say you can tell a lot about someone by the way they treat the people who can't answer back and if the message BBT is giving us is that Anu treats "the help" shabbily then that's not a good thing.  At all!

[AnnaRose]

2 minutes ago, CleoCaesar said:

YES! Exactly. Debra is the example I frequently give too of this phenomenon. Ray was an objectively bad husband and father. He was a manchild mama's boy who never did any chores, didn't like spending time with his kids, always sided with his mommy instead of his wife, the list goes on. In real life Debra would have divorced his ass pronto. They didn't even seem like they liked each other most of the time, much less loved.

But of course Debra is remembered in pop culture as the nagging wife. In reality she was the only adult in that marriage.

Thank you for that!  People are always mentioning Debra as the most egregious example of television shrew-wife, and I always wondered if things were totally different in the episodes I missed.  But you pretty much summed up my impressions of that marriage.

I don't find any of the wives on The Big Bang Theory to be unreasonably overbearing.  I think they usually respond in appropriate ways and are also shown to be very loving to their husbands.  Bernadette seems to get the most criticism, but Howard has always been a mama's boy type manchild and Bernadette had to deal with those tendencies.  Even so, they also get along really great, joke around, talk things out and show each other respect.  Howard has come such a long way too and overall is a very good husband.  (And father too I think, though we don't get to see any actual interaction.)

[BlossomCulp]

2 minutes ago, AnnaRose said:

I don't find any of the wives on The Big Bang Theory to be unreasonably overbearing.  I think they usually respond in appropriate ways and are also shown to be very loving to their husbands.  Bernadette seems to get the most criticism, but Howard has always been a mama's boy type manchild and Bernadette had to deal with those tendencies.  Even so, they also get along really great, joke around, talk things out and show each other respect.  Howard has come such a long way too and overall is a very good husband.  (And father too I think, though we don't get to see any actual interaction.)

I really liked the way Howard and Bernadette interacted in this episode.  Lots of good moments, the best being the way they clutched each other when the mood music started coming out of Stuart's room, but overall you could tell they were a happily married couple who "get" each other.  

[NutmegsDad]

2 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think Haley might be old enough to be a flower girl (although I could be wrong). Cinnamon is going to be part of the wedding in some way. 

Officiant.

[buffynut]

Decided to check out this forum, and see I've missed THREE episodes. :(  How'd the season start without me knowing?

[nygma619]

8 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Because they very rarely ever follow through with the woman not wanting children on a tv show.  Robin and Cristina on Grey's Anatomy are the only exceptions I can think of.  (How I Met Your Mother's finale was wrong in so many ways that Robin's stance on children was nothing.)

The Honeymooners, Green Acres, I Dream Of Jeanie, Will & Grace & Newhart would like a word with you.

(So it only counts as representation if we like it? That's a pretty shallow interpretation.)

9 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

It's not that Bernadette isn't allowed to change her mind, it is that she told Penny that Penny WILL change her mind.

So characters being flawed, saying something shallow & from a narrow minded point of view is unheard of?

4 minutes ago, nygma619 said:

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by nygma619

[LoneHaranguer]

3 hours ago, Gummo said:

Robin raises the Batbrella, of course!

No need. The Batmobile always has a button to do just what they need when they need it. One bat rain canopy coming up.

[MissLucas]

9 hours ago, nygma619 said:

Some people change their minds, some don't. Why is Bernadette not allowed to change her mind anymore than Penny is?

 

They kind of did with Robin & Ted in How I Met Your Mother, and fans didn't care about that representation in the finale.

Have you met me??? That was reason #654 to hate the finale - only slightly exaggerating. First Robin does not want to have children but in order to keep her likeable they make her infertile and in the end after the Mother has been reduced to a baby-popping machine who conveniently died just when Robin was about to have her midlife crisis Ted arrives with two teenagers (who are sooo easy to handle) in tow and all is well that ends well *barf*

Anyhow: This episode was stock-full of tropes I hated. First the couple who has been together for years and then got married without ever discussing kids? I can't imagine that there really are people like that out there in the world but apparently they exist and I just have managed to escape them so far. I just hope they are not as common as tv-land wants me to think they are.

And Bernadette and her whole attitude can suck it. She did not want kids and changed her mind - and that's fine. But that does not give her the right to walk all over Penny's decision (who quite frankly isn't the big surprise the show wants us to believe it is) and pester Penny with clichés that women who don't want kids get to hear until they feel like barfing without being pregnant (strangely enough men hardly ever get that talk - at least not on tv). I can only assume Bernadette binge-watched 'The Handmaid's Tale' while her kids kept her awake the night before. Howard who was equally condescending had at least the good grace to apologize to Raj.

Not sure where they are going with Raj and Anu. I would like TPTB to take the unexpected route for once and give them a happy ending. But Anu bossing around the waiter in the first scene does not bode well.

As for Leonard and Penny: we'll see how this works out in the end. My money is on Penny changing her mind because I don't think Leonard is really down with having no kids. The other options are divorce - but this is a sitcom (and they are the OTP) or Leonard giving up his career to be the prime caregiver, i.e. the deal Howard and Bernadette had when they discussed kids (!) and then conveniently forgot about because that would have disrupted the show's dynamics and robbed us of the cafeteria scenes. Since this is the last season the writers could pull that off now.

Well, at least Stuart is finally happy - and has a much better musical taste for love-making than Howard!

Edited October 5, 2018 by MissLucas

[theatremouse]

11 hours ago, ChitChat said:

Maybe Penny kind of thought she might have kids one day, but after seeing what Bernadette and Howard are going through she changed her  mind.  She's getting to see the reality of having kids - not that it's a bad thing, but those first few months can be pretty tough!  

This is how it played to me. I don't think they were presenting it that Penny never wanted children and oops she and Leonard really should've discussed it before. It's not like when Bernadette originally was thoroughly anti-kid. I think Penny was previously either ambivalent or maybe assumed she'd have kids because "it's what you do" but the more time she spends with Bernadette since having children, the more thought she's put into it, and consequently came to the realization that actually she really doesn't want them. In fact I think it may have happened in the moment when Bernie was pushing the issue that something clicked with Penny and she shifted from "meh whatever maybe later" to "nope!" That's why we saw her immediately go home and try to talk to Leonard about it. It wasn't some secret before. I think she realized this within the span of the episode and promptly tried to have the conversation.

[rmontro]

11 hours ago, LaChavalina said:

I've been saying for a couple of years now that I would like to see the show go down this path with Raj and show this kind of "introduction marriage" in a light that Americans don't often see. Some of my Indian-Americans friends' parents met that way and have been happily married for decades!

Considering what western civilization has done with marriage, I don't think any of us are justified in looking down on that tradition.

[Yeah No]

10 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Unless they soften Anu up quite a lot, I'm sticking by my original assessment.  I really don't like how overbearing she is.

Remember how stiff and robotic Amy was in her first season on the show?  They've really softened her up quite a bit since then.  And then there's how different Bernadette was in the beginning too.  So I think Anu will change.  She's already shown signs of wanting to adapt for Raj.  Like, he wants romantic, so she gave him romantic in a big way.  That's a great start!

11 hours ago, LaChavalina said:

As unromantic as it is, the fact that they wanted to learn about each other and discuss unsexy stuff like finances is pretty smart. I don't know, I've been saying for a couple of years now that I would like to see the show go down this path with Raj and show this kind of "introduction marriage" in a light that Americans don't often see. Some of my Indian-Americans friends' parents met that way and have been happily married for decades!

Didn't they already go down that path with Raj a few seasons ago when his parents set him up with an Indian woman who turned out to be gay and wanted to marry a gay man as a "cover"?  I remember she assumed Raj was gay.

[Yeah No]

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

I agree.  I tried to get my parents to arrange a marriage for me, but they wouldn't do it.  I liked that Howard was able to voice his concerns and then be supportive.  If Anu is wanting to discuss finances, I think they will also discuss the other things that Raj was surprised L&P didn't talk about.  So, in the coming weeks as they are planning, if they are truly incompatible, it will come to light and they won't marry.  I kind of hope it works out, though.

Me too.  Maybe They'll buy the house next to Howard and Bernadette.  I think that would be more fitting, actually.

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The problem with Amy is that she's been all over the map. When they first introduced her, she was practically robotic and said she didn't even believe in the concept of love. Then when she became friends with Penny she turned into this clingy nerd girl who couldn't believe a "popular" kid was friends with her. At times she seems to have grown out of that, but at other times, not so much. 

Hah, I promise I didn't read your post before I called Amy "robotic", lol.

[SpiritSong]

7 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

With Ross and Rachel, yes. But the writers also managed to write a totally functional, loving, drama-free couple: Monica and Chandler.

It all comes down to the quality of the couple, i.e. the writing. There's nothing stopping TV writers from creating great couples who don't have cheap breakup drama. It's very possible. My two favorite examples are Monica and Chandler, and Jake and Amy on Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

Penny and Leonard could have easily been one of those couples. Bit of a "will they or won't they" in the beginning, then getting together and being a functional couple with similar goals, values, and interests all the way to engagement and marriage. Stable couples aren't' necessarily boring. They just need to evolve and grow together.

The problem with Penny/Leonard to me is I don't know what's keeping them together. Penny doesn't seem super attracted to Leonard. Leonard can't share any of his interests with Penny. Penny doesn't want kids and Leonard does. Penny finds Leonard's hobbies childish. What do they even talk about?

They seem like a couple who only got together because of proximity and stayed together because of inertia.

I was thinking the exact same thing about Friends! The R&R storyline was beyond tiresome, but Chandler and Monica were everything you said, and it was a pleasure to watch their relationship unfold.

Maybe a great sex life is what keeps Penny and Leonard together. After all, Leslie Winkle did refer to him as "a magnificent beast."  ;-)