S08.E07: A Birth-day and a Birthday

[frenchtoast]

Quote

The three pregnant sister are reunited for a big family birthday; Joy goes into labor, and after 20 hours, she is transported to the hospital for an emergency C-section.

Hat tip to the kind poster who reminded me it was Monday, not Sunday. 

[bigskygirl]

The three pregnant sister? Okay!

[Sew Sumi]

Uhm, Kendra is an in-law. 

[Baby Button Eyes]

JimBob and Michelle are getting way too much talking and appearance time now. 

[mythoughtis]

9 minutes ago, Baby Button Eyes said:

JimBob and Michelle are getting way too much talking and appearance time now. 

Yes, it appears we are back to the main Duggar household and friends.   It’s obvious they got the contracts re-written.

[Pickles]

Austin's mom cooking with all of her long hair hanging down. Ack!

[woot]

We have seen the second half of this episode before, have we not? Pretty sure Joy had a birth special? 

I’m annoyed, I want new content and stupidity to snark at. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by woot

[Annb67]

Well jilly muffin was at Joy's birth with her medical thingys. That explains how a breech baby was missed. Keep trying Jill. Maybe at some point you'll figure this shit out.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Annb67

[VioletNevermind]

Dear TLC,

Please know that we haven’t forgotten the events and revelations of 2015.  We notice that you’re sneaking Jim Boob and MEchelle into more and more scenes each week.  Some of us aren’t the mouth-breathing morons who think these people are the salt of the earth and beyond reproach.  Some of us also have very long memories, especially when it comes to sugarcoating the sexual molestation of toddlers and preteens and their parents’ subsequent face-saving cover-ups.  Just putting that out there.

See ya next week (ugh, I hate myself).

Edited September 4, 2018 by SuzyLee

[flyingdi]

Good Gawd, even old man Austin looks impossibly young in this one!

"Who is neater?  Josiah or Lauren?"

"I don't know enough about Lauren to answer that!". Thanks for being the honest one, Joy!

[Adeejay]

Hey Austin, common sense dictates that had Joy gone to a hospital in the first place, then they would have seen that the baby was breech and Joy most likely wouldn't have been in labor for 19 hours.  After seeing Austin’s mom, I can certainly see where he gets his “looks.” 

It appears the advertisers are back!

Edited September 4, 2018 by Adeejay

[flyingdi]

I don't think Tyler cares what a buckeye is.  I also think Tyler seems very shy.

[VioletNevermind]

1 minute ago, flyingdi said:

I don't think Tyler cares what a buckeye is.  I also think Tyler seems very shy.

I thought the same thing.  I’m sure living with these wackos has been quite an adjustment period for him.  They caught him young; they’ll have him toeing that line by the time he gets old enough to court, etc.  Bless his heart, that’s all I can say.  At least he arrived post-Josh.  #smallblessings

[sigmaforce86]

I don't even know where to start with this, it goes beyond making fun to being mad at their sheer stupidity.  So we get a 10  second glimpse confirming Jill the know-it-all was at the birth and giving out medical advice.  And was that kid perfectly positioned for 18 or so hours but pulled a Flying Wallenda triple flip to turn butt first?  Or could it be that Joy's crack delivery team had neither the equipment or the skills to realize Giddy was a breach and not coming out on his own?  Jill is going to keep at it until one of the babies or the Mother or both are seriously injured or die.  And the worst part is these moron sisters are going to keep letting her "help"

OK so yes I'm ranting but bottom line there was no reason except stupidity for Joy to have suffered home labor that long.

And about Josiah and Lauren being given that house, could we at least have had a throw away mention why Jessa and Ben don't get it?  They don't want it because it's temporary, they're planning to move soon anyway, they like a small house (less for Jessa to not clean).  Something would have been nice because it makes no sense to put the baby less newlyweds in that McMansion while Ben, Jessa and two kids are stuffed into the mold house.  

Spurgeon continues to overcome his "interesting" name by being the most adorable smiley curley haired kid ever

Edited September 4, 2018 by sigmaforce86

[Squirrely]

I just can't comprehend that no one felt for the baby's head position for the first 19 freaking hours of poor Joy's labor. Was he head down at all before labor? Or was her prenatal care so shoddy that something that basic was overlooked? I'm sure I already know the answer to that question since there was no shocked exclamation that a 10 lb fetus managed to flip at the end of the pregnancy. I know it can happen, but I also know these people think amateur midwives are qualified to deliver ginormous babies 30 mins from hospitals. She and that precious baby could have died!! 

[DangerousMinds]

23 minutes ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I don't even know where to start with this, it goes beyond making fun to being mad at their sheer stupidity.  So we get a 10  second glimpse confirming Jill the know-it-all was at the birth and giving out medical advice.  And was that kid perfectly positioned for 18 or so hours but pulled a Flying Wallenda triple flip to turn butt first?  Or could it be that Joy's crack delivery team had neither the equipment or the skills to realize Giddy was a breach and not coming out on his own?  Jill is going to keep at it until one of the babies or the Mother or both are seriously injured or die.  And the worst part is these moron sisters are going to keep letting her "help"

OK so yes I'm ranting but bottom line there was no reason except stupidity for Joy to have suffered home labor that long.

And about Josiah and Lauren being given that house, could we at least have had a throw away mention why Jessa and Ben don't get it?  They don't want it because it's temporary, they're planning to move soon anyway, they like a small house (less for Jessa to not clean).  Something would have been nice because it makes no sense to put the baby less newlyweds in that McMansion while Ben, Jessa and two kids are stuffed into the mold house.  

Spurgeon continues to overcome his "interesting" name by being the most adorable smiley curley haired kid ever

Jessa and Bin supposedly own their house.

[Maya]

They’re lucky no one cracked their head open, jumping in a bouncy house right underneath that beam in the living room. 

I don’t think Lauren likes Josiah very much. 

[flyingdi]

11 minutes ago, Maya said:

They’re lucky no one cracked their head open, jumping in a bouncy house right underneath that beam in the living room. 

I don’t think Lauren likes Josiah very much. 

I think she's trying to one up Josiah's sense of humor but hers is coming off as sarcasm and mean sarcasm, at that.

[Jenilane6]

Tyler seems like a sweetheart, poor thing.  Jim Boob had to spend plenty on that house no matter the condition, cheap bastard.  Look what you get when you go through Alert a bunch of times and then get married!  Poor Hannie having to see that stupid, writhing, painful mess of labor.  So much better to be with Kendra or Jinger.

[Rabbittron]

Till to this day they still have the confetti all over the living room. I loved the line looks like a newborn 3 months old.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Rabbittron

[graefin]

Holy shit, Josiah's house has an elevator and automatic doors? What the hell? This tops Jill's McMansion. Is this his reward for overcoming "the gay"?

[SabineElisabeth]

So, am I remembering correctly that last night's episode was the first time we've seen Jill in real time since DerickGate?  I remember seeing her one other time in a flashback type thing, using old footage, but other than that....tonight is the first time?  Given that JB and Michelle have clearly been fully ungrounded, it doesn't totally surprise me that Jill would be as well, except she's not really as necessary for a lot of story lines as JB/Michelle.  And, while Jilly Muffin doesn't bother me like she does a lot of people, she's also not exactly the most interesting Duggar imo - so I also wouldn't have been shocked if the network had just left her in time out indefinitely.  In any case, it seems like potentially,  she's in the process as of this episode of being re-integrated into the show.  (If I were a betting woman, I'd definitely put my money on Derick never seeing the light of day on this show again, however, regardless of whether Jill reappears).

Other random thoughts - For some reason, and I'm not sure exactly what it was, but I actually did a double take at Kendra when she was at Jessa's with the pregnant "sisters," because she looked absolutely gorgeous, imo.  Her skin looked great, and maybe she was just having an amazing make up day, but I definitely noticed that pregnancy seemed to agree with her!  I also happen to think Kendra is quite possibly the most sincerely positive, sweet human being ever.  While I think those qualities are appreciated and valued by pretty much everybody, I think in that circle especially, they're elevated to the point that almost all women try to be that...and it's usually obvious at least every now and then that they're doing just that - trying.  Kendra, however, seems like that is 100% who she is naturally, and it's endearing enough that I don't really even mind her giggle/laugh anymore.  :-)

And another week, another fail in finding pretty much anything I like about Lauren.  She's the first Duggar/Duggar spouse (other than the obvious, of course) who I just really don't like, at all.  I don't think she's awful, per se, I just think she's.... not as funny as she thinks she is, and while probably unintentional, a little bit not so nice to Josiah.  I also think she's kind of dumb as a box of rocks, and to be fair, so is Joy-Anna, but at least Joy-Anna has some spunk, attitude, and just general weirdness/quirkiness that makes her still somewhat interesting to watch.

Final thought is that Austin and Joy-Anna must not be taking anything from JB and Michelle (aside from maybe money for appearing on the show - as they should, imo), because that is the only thing that explains why they seem to be living in poverty, almost, while her other married siblings are, to varying degrees, most definitely not.  Highlighted again tonight by the 9000 sq ft mansion Josiah and Lauren are going to "house-sit," while Joy-Anna's first "house" was a camper.

[kokapetl]

I wonder what Jimbob’s plan for that house is. Some of the automatic doors had “no alcohol beyond this point” stickers. 

[Magoo]

Poor Joy - so pregnant, so tired, so...amazingly snarky.  On the baby's name:  "We don't want anyone else's opinion, (irritably) why would we want anyone else's opinion?"  Austin: "uh...we'll say it nicer than that though..." Also snapping, "I don't know Lauren, so I don't know if she's neat or not."  She wanted nothing to do with the hoards of Duggars, nothing to do with a camera in her face, nothing to do with nothing.  She was just not having it.  I know she was exhausted, and I felt badly for her, but I have to admit I was laughing at her get-out-of-my-face-you-fuckers attitude.

[luvbadtv]

1 hour ago, SabineElisabeth said:

So, am I remembering correctly that last night's episode was the first time we've seen Jill in real time since DerickGate?  I remember seeing her one other time in a flashback type thing, using old footage, but other than that....tonight is the first time?  Given that JB and Michelle have clearly been fully ungrounded, it doesn't totally surprise me that Jill would be as well, except she's not really as necessary for a lot of story lines as JB/Michelle.  And, while Jilly Muffin doesn't bother me like she does a lot of people, she's also not exactly the most interesting Duggar imo - so I also wouldn't have been shocked if the network had just left her in time out indefinitely.  In any case, it seems like potentially,  she's in the process as of this episode of being re-integrated into the show.  (If I were a betting woman, I'd definitely put my money on Derick never seeing the light of day on this show again, however, regardless of whether Jill reappears)

Maybe they showed Jill to point out the fact that she botched another birth that she was in charge of; with her medical things.

[RedDelicious]

I got a kick out of Jilly talking about vital signs with such conviction.  Busting out the doppler does not a clinician Jilly make.  I hope they teach you how to take blood pressure in the Duggar School of Becoming a Professional by Observing.  I didn't see any cuffs but I wasn't 100% paying attention.

[Annb67]

Lauren's porn star breathy "I love you Daddy" gave me the creepin' cruds. Also, that Swanson family is weird. I get bad vibes from the dad.

[Magoo]

6 minutes ago, Annb67 said:

Lauren's porn star breathy "I love you Daddy" gave me the creepin' cruds. Also, that Swanson family is weird. I get bad vibes from the dad.

Seriously.  And the (to me, insincere) way she always scream-sighs "Siahhhhhhhhhh!" at a pitch only dogs can hear makes me cringe.

[saylubee]

After seeing the whole season now, I didn’t see any mention of Joy’s “professional” midwife at the first 19 hours of labor.  I get the feeling the midwife showed up, felt the baby was breech, tore Jill a new one and demanded that Joy be taken to the hospital ASAP.  I have my doubts that a real midwife would have missed the breech, but I can absolutely believe Jill would.

Josiah and Lauren’s house looks like it was originally a house then converted into some kind of medical facility.  Probably a rehab center of some sort.

[BitterApple]

6 minutes ago, saylubee said:

After seeing the whole season now, I didn’t see any mention of Joy’s “professional” midwife at the first 19 hours of labor.  I get the feeling the midwife showed up, felt the baby was breech, tore Jill a new one and demanded that Joy be taken to the hospital ASAP.  I have my doubts that a real midwife would have missed the breech, but I can absolutely believe Jill would.

You may be on to something. Back during Izzy's birth debacle, Jill's midwife was cleared of wrongdoing because Jill never called her and kept her appraised of what was happening. I remember reading this on Venessa Gidiron's FB page after Venessa released a statement saying she wasn't involved with any of the Duggar homebirths. So I can absolutely see a scenario where "expert" Jill was working alone and Joy's midwife wasn't called until the last minute. 

[SunnyBeBe]

12 hours ago, Squirrely said:

I just can't comprehend that no one felt for the baby's head position for the first 19 freaking hours of poor Joy's labor. Was he head down at all before labor? Or was her prenatal care so shoddy that something that basic was overlooked? I'm sure I already know the answer to that question since there was no shocked exclamation that a 10 lb fetus managed to flip at the end of the pregnancy. I know it can happen, but I also know these people think amateur midwives are qualified to deliver ginormous babies 30 mins from hospitals. She and that precious baby could have died!! 

I was curious and read some stories online about midwives and how they can detect baby's position and I was shocked at how many experienced midwives who were not able to tell and/or got it wrong.  So, apparently, it's common.  But, my question would be why not use scan as close to labor as possible.  Of course, maybe, they did that. I don't think it should fall on one person though, it was the assigned midwife's call. 

[louannems]

1 hour ago, saylubee said:

After seeing the whole season now, I didn’t see any mention of Joy’s “professional” midwife at the first 19 hours of labor.  I get the feeling the midwife showed up, felt the baby was breech, tore Jill a new one and demanded that Joy be taken to the hospital ASAP.  I have my doubts that a real midwife would have missed the breech, but I can absolutely believe Jill would.

Josiah and Lauren’s house looks like it was originally a house then converted into some kind of medical facility.  Probably a rehab center of some sort.

At one point during Joy's labor, she said ,"help me breath, Meagan".  Was Meagan the midwife, I wonder?

[saylubee]

1 minute ago, louannems said:

At one point during Joy's labor, she said ,"help me breath, Meagan".  Was Meagan the midwife, I wonder?

Meagan is Austin’s sister.  The midwife was named as Lucy Ferguson in an earlier episode.  She wasn’t mentioned nor did I see a glimpse of her during the first 19 hours.

[graefin]

40 minutes ago, saylubee said:

Meagan is Austin’s sister.  The midwife was named as Lucy Ferguson in an earlier episode.  She wasn’t mentioned nor did I see a glimpse of her during the first 19 hours.

So who is this? She is pictured just after Michelle et al are shown driving at the 4 am mark (less than 12 hours after Joy "goes into labor") over to Joy's house. It's not Jill, and I assume it's not Meagan. I would have thought it was the midwife. She's holding what I guess is the Doppler device, and you can hear the swooshing sounds.

Edited September 4, 2018 by graefin

[ginger90]

Just watched a clip. In it Austin says, “When the midwife came she told us the baby was breech.”.  So, as soon as the midwife got there, it was determined? Am I getting that correctly? (No tv, depend on clips) How long was she in labor before she/someone, called the midwife?

Edited September 4, 2018 by ginger90

[mythoughtis]

If I was the midwife and no one called me until the 19th hour of labor, I’d refuse to be a midwife for the woman again. 

If I were the pregnant Mom, and my midwife either didn’t show up for 19 hours, or missed a breech, i’d Not use the midwife again. 

Doctors are often not there during the labor, but labor and delivery nurses are. 

Also - did Joy have any kind of an advance relationship with this ‘closest’ hospital- or was she just expecting an OB to be at the hospital 24/7? 

[BitterApple]

2 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

If I was the midwife and no one called me until the 19th hour of labor, I’d refuse to be a midwife for the woman again. 

If I were the pregnant Mom, and my midwife either didn’t show up for 19 hours, or missed a breech, i’d Not use the midwife again. 

Doctors are often not there during the labor, but labor and delivery nurses are. 

Also - did Joy have any kind of an advance relationship with this ‘closest’ hospital- or was she just expecting an OB to be at the hospital 24/7? 

At this point, I can't imagine why any midwife who wants to maintain her reputation would even deal with this family. They're ignorant, irresponsible and stupid. Oh, and they also have a nationally televised tv show where they can carefully control the edit and the narrative. They'll make anyone look bad to save their own hides. 

[sATL]

did I miss the reason that Jinger chose a birth center so far away from Laredo? I heard her discuss she want a birthing center.. and who all was coming...

[cereality]

These fools get what they deserve when they keep “in sourcing” all tasks within the family bc god forbid we use an outside professional until it is a crisis. And I love how Joy kept breezily saying — we’ll go to the closest hospital if we have to, it’s 30 min away. Uh when it comes to birth whether mother and child’s status can turn in minutes, 30 min may as well be in another state.

They went to a regular hospital and used whatever OB was on call — not like some dr who has an reason to kiss their asses. I truly hope that OB tore Joy and Austin a new one the next day or at some point during her stay. OBs can be a bit harsh - not bc they’re mean but bc sometimes ppl need to understand how things affect 2 lives, not just 1. They need to be told in no uncertain terms exactly what could’ve happened with her laboring at home for 19 hrs with her fool of a sister who can’t tell if the baby is up or down. I love how she says once she was in the room, the baby was out in 1-2 min. Uh genius - they’re trained to get a baby out in 90 seconds BUT they only do that if it’s a dire emergency which this was. Otherwise they take the 5 or 10 min they need.

Also loved the brunch where Kendra clearly says re birth plans — hospital as soon as labor starts; Joe; my mom and I’m otherwise not an audience person. Good for her. Her parents have heads on their shoulders and got her in with a real MD for appt 1 and I think would put their foots down if their 18 yr old wanted to Labor at home with her sister in law who thinks she’s a dr. I also think Kendra is kind of shocked by the Duggar ways and herself would say no to home birth, let alone with a sister in law looking at her vag. I mean she didn’t even try to hide her disdain at the bouncy house inside the house as she said — it’s a construction theme but really it’s destruction of the home. She keeps a nice home from what we’ve seen — I can see why she doesn’t want Joe’s monster younger sibs coming over.

[BitterApple]

1 minute ago, sATL said:

did I miss the reason that Jinger chose a birth center so far away from Laredo? I heard her discuss she want a birthing center.. and who all was coming...

My guess is nobody in Laredo was willing to whore themselves out to TLC and appear on camera.

[sATL]

13 hours ago, Maya said:

They’re lucky no one cracked their head open, jumping in a bouncy house right underneath that beam in the living room. 

I don’t think Lauren likes Josiah very much. 

why couldn't the house be set up in the garage warehouse bldg - where Ben lived and cleaned toilets ?

[ehall1052]

4 minutes ago, sATL said:

4 minutes ago, sATL said:

why couldn't the house be set up in the garage warehouse bldg - where Ben lived and cleaned toilets ?

 

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe too much junk in the way?

[Marigold]

Because loosing a pregnancy is a sensitive subject, I say this carefully...

I believe Jill was monitoring Jubilee also. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Michelle talked about how Jill heard the heartbeat a few days prior etc.  Maybe Jubilee would've passed away anyway, no one will ever know and certainly WE will never know.  But Jill was involved with that pregnancy also.  Jill was much younger and was just "monitoring" because she had attended some births and was interesting in being a midwife.  I hope Michelle didn't depend on Jill to monitor anything.  Michelle was super high risk.  Maybe Jill was just listening to the heartbeat and not being used to actually "check up" on the baby.  

Anyway...just an observation about Jill...

[sATL]

need to find out the demographics of where the 9000 sq ft house is... meaning what is the avg income ? not just for a possible mortgage, but taxes, utilities, up-keep..

Anytime these women get together and cook my food prep checklist comes out... folding taco/enchilada on top of the store pkg plastic bag - which I doubt they washed off before hand?

Edited September 4, 2018 by sATL

[graefin]

30 minutes ago, cereality said:

I also think Kendra is kind of shocked by the Duggar ways and herself would say no to home birth, let alone with a sister in law looking at her vag.

Of all these crazies, I think Kendra is my favorite. She was clearly raised the most normally of everyone, and I really can't find much negative to say about her. She is sensible and genuine, and considering her young age, that's pretty impressive. She's kind, but she's also not afraid to speak her mind, even in the presence of male "authority." She's not going to allow for her children to grow up learning to lick their plates, so she's certainly not going to settle for a do-it-yourself birth. Joe got really lucky.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I was curious and read some stories online about midwives and how they can detect baby's position and I was shocked at how many experienced midwives who were not able to tell and/or got it wrong.  So, apparently, it's common.  But, my question would be why not use scan as close to labor as possible.  Of course, maybe, they did that. I don't think it should fall on one person though, it was the assigned midwife's call. 

An ultrasound machine, even a simple one, costs at least 10 grand.  Lay midwives cannot bill for performing ultrasound because it is considered outside of their scope of care.  Many of their patients don't have medical insurance and couldn't pay for ultrasound themselves even if the midwife could somehow afford to buy a machine and get the training needed to use it properly.  Most MD's and CNM's have access to ultrasound in their office because 1) they have training and can bill for the procedure or 2) like me, they work for a large facility where coming up with old ultrasound machines for us to use for free to check position or the heartbeat is no big deal.

It is actually kind of tough to tell if a baby is breech, especially in overweight women, etc.  It requires not only doing an abdominal exam for position (Leopold's maneuvers is the technical term) but also performing a vaginal exam to try to identify the presenting part.  It takes a lot of experience, and, even then, it is easy to get it wrong.   It requires a lot of experience and vigilance.  From what I have seen, Jill doesn't actually even see pregnant patients on any sort of a regular basis, so how is she ever going to get the experience necessary to get this skill?  Most lay midwives, even ones who consider themselves to have busy practices, do fewer than 100 deliveries a year, often fewer than 50.  They're never going to develop the skill set needed to reliably detect a breech baby.

[Mindthinkr]

13 minutes ago, graefin said:

Of all these crazies, I think Kendra is my favorite. She was clearly raised the most normally of everyone, and I really can't find much negative to say about her. She is sensible and genuine, and considering her young age, that's pretty impressive. She's kind, but she's also not afraid to speak her mind, even in the presence of male "authority." She's not going to allow for her children to grow up learning to lick their plates, so she's certainly not going to settle for a do-it-yourself birth. Joe got really lucky.

It’s funny how at first a lot of people were put off by her laugh but as time has flown by, and we’ve gotten to know her, that she is one delightful young lady. I hope she sticks to her guns and stays out of crazy Duggar territory. 

[SunnyBeBe]

6 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

An ultrasound machine, even a simple one, costs at least 10 grand.  Lay midwives cannot bill for performing ultrasound because it is considered outside of their scope of care.  Many of their patients don't have medical insurance and couldn't pay for ultrasound themselves even if the midwife could somehow afford to buy a machine and get the training needed to use it properly.  Most MD's and CNM's have access to ultrasound in their office because 1) they have training and can bill for the procedure or 2) like me, they work for a large facility where coming up with old ultrasound machines for us to use for free to check position or the heartbeat is no big deal.

It is actually kind of tough to tell if a baby is breech, especially in overweight women, etc.  It requires not only doing an abdominal exam for position (Leopold's maneuvers is the technical term) but also performing a vaginal exam to try to identify the presenting part.  It takes a lot of experience, and, even then, it is easy to get it wrong.   It requires a lot of experience and vigilance.  From what I have seen, Jill doesn't actually even see pregnant patients on any sort of a regular basis, so how is she ever going to get the experience necessary to get this skill?  Most lay midwives, even ones who consider themselves to have busy practices, do fewer than 100 deliveries a year, often fewer than 50.  They're never going to develop the skill set needed to reliably detect a breech baby.

Thanks for your perspective Doodlebug.  So, what's the best plan for these ladies who desperately want home births? Call the midwife earlier?

[doodlebug]

57 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Because loosing a pregnancy is a sensitive subject, I say this carefully...

I believe Jill was monitoring Jubilee also. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Michelle talked about how Jill heard the heartbeat a few days prior etc.  Maybe Jubilee would've passed away anyway, no one will ever know and certainly WE will never know.  But Jill was involved with that pregnancy also.  Jill was much younger and was just "monitoring" because she had attended some births and was interesting in being a midwife.  I hope Michelle didn't depend on Jill to monitor anything.  Michelle was super high risk.  Maybe Jill was just listening to the heartbeat and not being used to actually "check up" on the baby.  

Anyway...just an observation about Jill...

As far as Jubilee, I believe Michelle was only 17 weeks along.  It doesn't matter who listened or didn't at that point, the baby was previable.  A baby has a small chance of surviving outside the womb starting around 22 weeks or so.  Even if Jill heard something abnormal in the heart rate at 17 weeks, there was nothing to be done about it.

[Squirrely]

59 minutes ago, sATL said:

 

Anytime these women get together and cook my food prep checklist comes out... folding taco/enchilada on top of the store pkg plastic bag - which I doubt they washed off before hand?

I cringed at this too! I'm not a huge germaphobe, but I'm pretty structured and obsessive about food prep. That package could have been sneezed on, stepped on, dropped on the floor of the warehouse and/or store, etc. Clean the counter and use it, or use a clean plate or tray.